Who is the Anti-Christ?

[Deicide]

Are you saying these Christians had nothing to do with abolishing slavery?

America:
John Brown
Frederick Douglass
Abraham Lincoln
 
Britain:
William Wilberforce
Granville Sharp
Thomas Clarkson


Contribution to World Literacy
There are Christian organizations which send missionaries to parts of the world where these missionaries translate the Bible into the locals' language and then teach them how to read it.  They also go into parts of the world where people have a spoken language, but no written language.  These organizations learn the spoken language, create a written language from it, then translate the Bible into this new written language, and finally teach these people their new written language.  Wycliffe Bible Translators is one of these Christian organizations. 

I'm surprised that you, Deicide, of all people have never heard of them, given your skills and career choice!

The Printing Press and its contribution to the rapid development in the sciences and art
Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press with replaceable/moveable wooden or metal letters in 1436 (completed by 1440). This method of printing can be credited not only for a revolution in the production of books, but also for fostering rapid development in the sciences, arts and religion through the transmission of texts.

Johannes Gutenberg is also accredited with printing the world's first book using movable type, the 42-line (the number of lines per page) Gutenberg Bible.

Of course I know these men but you are claiming that their actions were explicitly Chrisitian in nature, which I dispute.

And btw, whilst Wycliff was getting owned by the Catholic Church for his good deeds...all Christians...anyway, it just doesn't follow that Christianity per se had anything to do with this. As I said, by default all people could hear about in the 14th (Wycliffe) and 15 centuries (Gutenberg) was the stupid Bible and the moronic preachings of the Church.

[Butterbean]

Disagree if you want, but the history of the Catholic church is the longest history of the Christian faith. Time = Origin.

Also, The Catholic church put together the Bible... They picked and chose what books to join together to create it... How can you say you don't subscribe to their belief when the Bible you are quoting was created by them?

Today Catholic churches (possibly not all?) teach things in direct opposition to what the bible teaches.

tu_, what are your thoughts on the Apocryphal books?  Do you consider them part of your bible?

Now for an interesting question, or rather... lets say hypothetical situation, for those of you who believe there is an Anti-Christ:

There is a new-born baby, and you would get information that made you absolutely sure, no doubts in the world, that the baby was the Anti-Christ.

You happen to know where the baby is, and you also have free access to it.

And have the tools to kill it.

You know that once the baby grows up, the chance is gone.

Would you kill the baby?

That is an interesting question!  Some things to be considered would be if you would be interfering w/God's plan to kill the baby. 

Even if all of your scenario was true, I don't know that I'd be able to kill a baby lying there.

What if Roe v. Wade has already killed or will kill the Anti-Christ... what about that?

Along those lines, what if it killed the person w/the cure for cancer

[The Luke]

Even if all of your scenario was true, I don't know that I'd be able to kill a baby lying there.

...of course you would. Why deny it?

If history has thought us anything it is that religion, and the delusional extremist thinking associated with it, is the very best method by which normally moral people can be convinced to act immorally.

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens:
There is no good deed any believer has ever done that could not have been done by an atheist... but there is a long list of atrocious acts committed in the name of imaginary friends.


If you insist upon convincing yourself the patently irrational is literally true, then you can be convinced of anything.


The Luke

[Butterbean]

...of course you would. Why deny it?

Oh brother lol.   Glad you know me so well 

If you insist upon convincing yourself the patently irrational is literally true, then you can be convinced of anything.


The Luke

How's the hunt for Bigfoot coming along?












See, you think Christians are irrational.  Some people may think that your obsession w/Bigfoot is irrational.  To each his own but at least we are not obsessed w/your obsession.

[Deicide]

Oh brother lol.   Glad you know me so well 
How's the hunt for Bigfoot coming along?

The idea of Bigfoot is a hell of a lot more realistic than some self-ressurecting cosmic zombie and I am not a Bigfoot believer.

[The Luke]

How's the hunt for Bigfoot coming along?

...quite well. We're up to a partial DNA profile!

Jane Goodall just threw her weight behind the cause.



The Luke

[ATHEIST]

Today Catholic churches (possibly not all?) teach things in direct opposition to what the bible teaches.

how so?

[Butterbean]

l

how so?

Hi ATHEIST

Not sure that all Catholic churches teach these things so we'll say Some Catholic Churches.....

Some Catholic Churches:  teach that water baptism saves or rituals given by a priest
Bible:  Salvation comes by grace through faith (belief) in Christ as Savior

SCC:  You can lose your salvation
Bible:  Salvation is secure

SCC: Pope can be considered infallible
Bible: All people are fallible/sinful

SCC:  Purgatory
Bible:  No mention of Purgatory

SCC:  Teach that Mary is a co-redeemer w/Christ.
Bible:  Belief in Jesus only. 


SCC:  Prayer to "saints" and Mary are accepted and encouraged.
Bible:  Pray only to God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).  Attempted contact w/the dead is an abomination

[ATHEIST]

thanks for that, i always questioned why they prayed to Mother Mary or other Saints. isnt that worshipping a false idol? how do they justify that being its in the 10 commandments?

[tu_holmes]

thanks for that, i always questioned why they prayed to Mother Mary or other Saints. isnt that worshipping a false idol? how do they justify that being its in the 10 commandments?

So is praying to Jesus too then though... Right?

Jesus is not God.

[The Luke]

From the time of Christ till the early fourteenth century, a sizable contingent (possibly a majority) of Christians believed things that would be considered non-Christian today.

The Cathars; Old Believers; Bogomils; Albigensians; Carpocratians; Mandeans; Johannites; Hibernians and Gnostics were all at odds with the (current) beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church.


Many Christians, for many centuries, firmly believed some mix of the following:
-Jesus was an ordinary man
-Jesus was a twin. His identical twin brother Judas went on the cross in his place.
-Jesus was a twin. His identical twin brother Thomas (Hebrew for "twin") went on the cross in his place.
-Jesus was a ghost
-Jesus never died but survived the crucifixion and retired in the east
-Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene
-Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary were the same person
-Jesus' father was a Roman legionnaire
-Jesus' father was a Roman legionnaire client of his mother, a prostitute
-Jesus was the reincarnation of Elijah
-Mary Magdalene was the successor of Jesus and the first true pope

In fact, when you include the Aryan Church... then a case could be made that throughout the Dark Ages the majority of Christians did NOT believe in the resurrection.

To this day there is a small sect of Christians who firmly believe that Jesus never ascended into heaven, but survived the crucifixion, healed up and escaped to the east... where he died an old man and was buried. They do have some evidence on their side... a miracle worker named Issa (Jesus?) returned to Kashmir (a disputed region between Pakistan and India) after being crucified by the Romans in Jerusalem on the orders of Pilate in the early first century. His tomb is a tourist attraction to this day... and first century inscriptions of Issa's teachings included Issa's claim to be the person Christians know as Jesus.




But most interesting... and most pertinent to this discussion... there are at least two longstanding sects who firmly believe Jesus himself was the Antichrist.


The followers of Simon Magis still believe that he, the creepy sex-magician was the true Christ messiah. They do have a point, there is fuck all difference between the teachings of Simon Magis and the the teachings of Christ... it's just that Simon Magis was more pro-sex and pro-Gnosticism (personal communion with god without an intermediary). He had twelve male disciples and a thirteenth consort/disciple who was a redeemed prostitute (sounds familiar?), he performed miracles, healed the blind; healed the lame; healed the possessed, walked on water, raised the dead etc etc.

The best evidence that they may be on to something is the fact that John the Baptist did not leave his ministry to Jesus... after an intermediary administration by a caretaker disciple while he traveled back to Jerusalem, Simon Magis, the named and preferred heir to John the Baptist took over the ministry.

They believe Jesus to be the Antichrist who falsified history in order to usurp the true Christ: Simon Magis.


The Mandeans of Iraq (the so-called "Swamp Kurds"), despite their public declarations to be "People of the Book", are rumored to secretly be the longest continuous Johannite religion on Earth. They worship John the Baptist as the Christ, and believe Jesus to be the usurper who ordered the death of the true messiah John the Baptist through Mary Salome, sister of his concubine Mary Magdalene.

Jesus the usurper then established a false ministry offering the empty promise of a non-existent salvation through belief in him: the Antichrist. Jesus convinced the gullible by using the enthralled captive ghost of John the Baptist to perform miracles on his behalf, because Jesus had the Baptist's head and the owning of an important bodypart enslaved a spirit (a common mid-eastern belief).


So, surprisingly... Jesus might be the Antichrist.



The Luke

[ATHEIST]

So is praying to Jesus too then though... Right?

Jesus is not God.

 they are taught to be one in the same according to western Christianity, or at least i was. The Holy Trinity.

[Soundness]

Some comments from gotquestions.org

Question: "Who is the antichrist?"

Answer: There is much speculation about the identity of the antichrist. Some of the more popular targets are Vladimir Putin, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Pope Benedict XVI. In the United States, former President Bill Clinton, current President George Bush, and president-elect Barack Obama are the most frequent candidates. So, who is the antichrist, and how will we recognize him?

The Bible really does not say anything specific about where the antichrist will come from. Many Bible scholars speculate that he will come from a confederacy of ten nations and/or a reborn Roman empire (Daniel 7:24-25; Revelation 17:7). Others see him as being a Jew since he would have to be in order to claim to be the Messiah. It is all just speculation since the Bible does not specifically say where the antichrist will come from or what race he will be. One day, the antichrist will be revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 tells us how we will recognize the antichrist: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

It is likely that most people who are alive when the antichrist is revealed will be very surprised at his identity. The antichrist may or may not be alive today. Martin Luther was convinced that the pope in his time was the antichrist. Others who have lived in the past few hundred years have been equally sure as to the identity of the antichrist. So far, they have all been incorrect. We should put the speculations behind us and focus on what the Bible actually says about the antichrist. Revelation 13:5-8 declares, "The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware

Well, Sarah Palin was going to be.  FAIL.

[tu_holmes]

they are taught to be one in the same according to western Christianity, or at least i was. The Holy Trinity.

Not exactly... Some see him as God... Some the son of God... Some see him as God made man.

So there are subtle differences.

[Butterbean]

thanks for that, i always questioned why they prayed to Mother Mary or other Saints. isnt that worshipping a false idol? how do they justify that being its in the 10 commandments?

Seems like it would be worshipping a false idol.  I have had a Catholic school teacher tell me that they don't worship Mary though but they "honor" her.  She couldn't really describe what she meant by that so I'm not sure.

So is praying to Jesus too then though... Right?

Jesus is not God.

Not exactly... Some see him as God... Some the son of God... Some see him as God made man.

So there are subtle differences.

they are taught to be one in the same according to western Christianity, or at least i was. The Holy Trinity.

Christians do believe that Jesus is God and so yes we pray to Him (and the Holy Spirit as well.) 

There are people that consider themselves Christian that do not believe Jesus is God...I think Mormons consider themselves Christian and possibly Jehova's Witnesses also.

[tu_holmes]

Seems like it would be worshipping a false idol.  I have had a Catholic school teacher tell me that they don't worship Mary though but they "honor" her.  She couldn't really describe what she meant by that so I'm not sure.

 they are taught to be one in the same according to western Christianity, or at least i was. The Holy Trinity.


Christians do believe that Jesus is God and so yes we pray to Him (and the Holy Spirit as well.) 

There are people that consider themselves Christian that do not believe Jesus is God...I think Mormons consider themselves Christian and possibly Jehova's Witnesses also.

The Holy Trinity is a Catholic creation... Just so you know.

The "Holy Spirit" as an entity was invented by those damn Catholics.

[Butterbean]

The Holy Trinity is a Catholic creation... Just so you know.

I hadn't heard that before.

The "Holy Spirit" as an entity was invented by those damn Catholics.

Are you saying the Catholic church wrote the bible?


tu_holmes are you Catholic?  I didn't mean to offend you.  If I did, I apologize!

[tu_holmes]

I hadn't heard that before.
Are you saying the Catholic church wrote the bible?


tu_holmes are you Catholic?  I didn't mean to offend you.  If I did, I apologize!

The Catholics did in effect write the Bible... Haven't we already spoken of this before?

No, they didn't write each individual book at it's core, but let's say they did edit it to the way they saw fit.

The Catholic Church over time recognized and decided the canon of the New and Old Testaments in A.D. 382 at the synod of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419)

My mother is Catholic, so by birth, I guess you could say I am as well, but I do not consider myself a practicer of catholicism or any other religion.

I am not really a person of faith... I have a lot of upbringing to fall back to.

[Hustle Man]

The Catholics did in effect write the Bible... Haven't we already spoken of this before?

No, they didn't write each individual book at it's core, but let's say they did edit it to the way they saw fit.

The Catholic Church over time recognized and decided the canon of the New and Old Testaments in A.D. 382 at the synod of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419)

Check it Tu!

CANON OF SCRIPTURE
I. Introduction
A. English word "canon"
A. Derived from Greek word kanon meaning "measure, rule,
standard, norm." Later meant "list" or "collection."
B. Greek word derived from Hebrew word qaneh meaning "reed."
C. Greek word kanon not used of standard collection of Scripture until
4th century.
B. Greek word kanon used in New Testament
1. II Cor. 10:13,15,16 - "a measure"
2. Gal. 6:16 - "walk by this rule"
3. Phil. 3:16 - "living by that standard" (not in best MSS)
C. Distinguishing between
1. Revelation
2. Inspiration
3. Enscripturalization
4. Preservation
5. Authoritization
6. Canonization
D. Criteria for canonization? Determined from early Christian sources.
1. Early dating
2. Apostolic origin
3. Divine inspiration
4. Divine authority
5. No contradiction to accepted teaching, "rule of faith."
6. Relevance and value to church at large
E. Some regard study of the canonization of Scripture as a threat to their faith
in the Bible.
II. Canon of the Old Testament.
A. Hebrew writings of Jews were progressively divided into three parts:
1. Law - Torah - Pentateuch - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
Deuteronomy.
2. Prophets
a. Former prophets - Joshua, Judges, Samuel (I,II), Kings (I,II)
b. Latter prophets - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, 12 prophets
3. Writings - Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Canticles, Ruth, Lamentations,
Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra/Nehemiah, Chronicles (I,II).
B. Later Ruth was attached to Judges, and Lamentations to Jeremiah to cause
sum of books to be 22, corresponding to number of letters in Hebrew
alphabet.
C. The Hebrew O.T. writings that Jesus was familiar with were likely
collected in one of the foregoing ways. Matthew 23:35 tends to illustrate this.
D. Josephus, Jewish historian, c. 100 A.D., wrote that Jews had 22 books
containing the history of all time.
E. Canonization process was gradual. Divisions due both to content and
chronology of acceptance as canonical.
F. Councils of Jamnia, 90, 118 A.D., Jewish rabbis discussed canon of O.T.
G. Septuagint (LXX), Greek translation of O.T. employed different order and
included apocryphal literature. Jerome's Latin Vulgate translation used
LXX.
H. Roman Catholic Bibles include O.T. apocrypha - Tobit, Judith, Wisdom,
Sirach, Baruch, I,II Macabees, and additions to Esther and Daniel.
III. Canon of the New Testament
A. Early Christian writings gradually collected. Gospels. Paul's writings -
(II Peter 3:16).
B. Marcion, Gnostic heretic, (139 A.D.) determined list of writings. Rejected
O.T., revised Luke's gospel, ten Pauline epistles. Restricted list.
C. Montanus claimed divine revelation. Expanded list.
D. Church responded to these attempts to expand or restrict.
E. Irenaeus, 180 A.D. cites 22 writings as acceptable: 4 gospels, Acts, 13
Pauline epistles, I Peter, I,II John and Revelation.
F. Muratorian list - named after Italian Muratori (1740) who discovered such.
Fragment dated late 2nd to 4th century. 22 books plus Apocalypse of Peter.
Hebrews, I,II Peter, III John and James omitted.
G. Tertullian (150-230) - 22 books accepted: 4 gospels, Acts, 13 Pauline
epistles, I Peter, I John, Jude, Revelation.
H. Origen (185-255). Three categories of writings:
1. Acknowledged: 4 gospels, 13 Pauline epistles, I Peter, I John, Acts,
Revelation.
2. Disputed: II Peter, II,III John, Hebrews, James and Jude; also
Epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Didache.
3. Heretical: Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, etc.
I. Eusebius (260-340).
1. Acknowledged: 4 gospels, 14 Pauline epistles (Hebrews included), I
Peter, I John, Acts
2. Disputed: James, Jude, II Peter, II,III John, Revelation. Spurious:
Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas, Didache, Acts of Paul.
3. Heretical: Gospel of Thomas, Peter, Acts of Andrew etc.
J. Codex Sinaiticus (4th century). 27 books plus Epistle of Barnabas and
Shepherd of Hermas.
K. Council of Laodicea (363) - 26 books. Revelation omitted.
L. Athanasius (367) - first time list includes the 27 books of present N.T.
M. Jerome's Vulgate included 27 books of N.T.
N. Augustine (397), 3rd Council of Carthage, accepted 27 books of N.T.
O. Martin Luther. Put Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation at back of His
German N.T. as inferior writings.
IV. Questions
A. Was Christianity ever intended to be a religion of Scripture?
1. II Cor. 3:6
2. Anchor Bible Dict. I, 853 - "Christianity was not originally a
Scriptural religion in the same sense as Judaism. The faith of the
earliest Christian community was evoked by and centered on a
person, Jesus of Nazareth."
B. Is the Bible intended to be the basis of authority for Christians?
1. Matt. 28:18
2. "Word of the Lord" - I Cor. 7:10; 9:14; 11:23; I Thess. 4:15
C. What if the New Testament had never been written, preserved, or collected?
D. Is the Bible the infallible Word of God?
E. Did the Church put the Bible together?
F. Is canonicity God-given or Church-conferred? ...or combination of both?
G. Did God determine what writings should be in the Bible, and then
Christians in the Church recognized and affirmed these as the normative
and authoritative standard?

[Hustle Man]

And FYI,

This is what happened at the Council of Hippo (393)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

This is what happened at the Council of Carthage (397)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

This is what happened at the Council of Carthage (419)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

[Hedgehog]

Are you saying the Catholic church wrote the bible?

It would be more correct though to say that the Catholic Church were the editors of the Bible, ie decided what was allowed to be in it.

The Catholic Church is after all the original Christianity.

[loco]

It would be more correct though to say that the Catholic Church were the editors of the Bible, ie decided what was allowed to be in it.

The Catholic Church is after all the original Christianity.

Wasn't Christianity around for 300 years or so before the Roman Catholic church emerged?

As for the Old Testament, it was Jewish scholars who came up with the cannon, Tanakh, accepted by Protestant churches.  The Roman Catholic Church accepts the Septuagint as the Old Testament cannon, but Jews and Protestants do not. 

[Hedgehog]

Wasn't Christianity around for 300 years or so before the Roman Catholic church emerged?

As for the Old Testament, it was Jewish scholars who came up with the cannon, Tanakh, accepted by Protestant churches.  The Roman Catholic Church accepts the Septuagint as the Old Testament cannon, but Jews and Protestants do not. 

No.

Peter the Apostle was the first bishop of Rome, and from there the Catholic Church developed.

[loco]

No.

Peter the Apostle was the first bishop of Rome, and from there the Catholic Church developed.

Yeah, according to who, the Roman Catholic Church?  How convenient for them!  Not according to the Bible, not even the "Catholic" Bible.

[The Luke]

Yeah, according to who, the Roman Catholic Church?  How convenient for them!  Not according to the Bible, not even the "Catholic" Bible.

Just for the record...

Catholicism is not the original version of Christianity... that would be Gnosticism.

Peter was NOT the first bishop of Rome... he couldn't have been, he is a fictitious person... he never existed. Neither did any of the disciples... they are allegorical metaphors representing the zodiac constellations.

Paul, (Saul of Tarsus) was probably the closest thing to being the first Christian bishop.



James the Just is sometimes noted as the first Christian bishop, but it is important to differentiate that although James collected tithes from early Christians on the authority of his being Jesus' surviving brother, James the Just himself was never a Christian.
He was the leader of the Quumran Essenes, an ascetic Jewish fundamentalist apocalyptic cult... Jesus never existed as a real historical human being, he was an invention of the Jerusalem/Quumran Essenes. The Jesus myth is a Hebrew version of the common Middle Eastern solar-deity dying-resurrecting godman Mystery Religion.

The Quumran Essenes used the Jesus myth as a fundraiser for their war effort against the Romans, they collected tithes on the authority of James supposedly being Jesus brother (they were completely destroyed by the Romans under Titus in 70 AD). This was considered acceptable as they were merely utilizing a non-illuminated literalist (no hidden teachings) Jewish version of the Mystery Religion to swindle Gentiles out of coin.

As happened with Scientology when L Ron Hubbard died, the scam outlived the founder.


So, I suppose you could say that Paul/Saul, although he wasn't really the first pope or bishop... he was at least the David Miscavige to James the Just's L Ron Hubbard.


The Luke