Schoolkids gets shut out: Vagina

[Deedee]

That's not important.  The point is that this censorship had absolutely no connection with liberal political correctness whatsoever, as you claimed. In point of fact, most of the censorship taking place in schools across the US is encouraged, loudly, by the religious right. Anyone who thinks overwise, is not well-informed on the subject

[BRUCE]

That's not important.  The point is that this censorship had absolutely no connection with liberal political correctness whatsoever, as you claimed. In point of fact, most of the censorship taking place in schools across the US is encouraged, loudly, by the religious right. Anyone who thinks overwise, is not well-informed on the subject

Excuse me?  Are you talking to me?

Have you disproved that it was not, in fact, Leftists (not liberals, as you say) that caused this to occur?  Am I to assume you polled the instigators as to their socio/political agenda?

You also have not proved it was the religious Right.

And thanks for the ol' 240 'you're-not-well-informed-but-I-can't-show-you-why' statement.

[Hedgehog]

Excuse me?  Are you talking to me?

Have you disproved that it was not, in fact, Leftists (not liberals, as you say) that caused this to occur?  Am I to assume you polled the instigators as to their socio/political agenda?

You also have not proved it was the religious Right.

And thanks for the ol' 240 'you're-not-well-informed-but-I-can't-show-you-why' statement.

Nice to see you pointing out the distinction between Leftists and liberals.

-Hedge

[24KT]

I don't recall ever really being taught anything about masturbation growing up

Me either... I had to figure it out on my own. Fortunately, ...I'm a quick study.   

[Dos Equis]

That's not important.  The point is that this censorship had absolutely no connection with liberal political correctness whatsoever, as you claimed. In point of fact, most of the censorship taking place in schools across the US is encouraged, loudly, by the religious right. Anyone who thinks overwise, is not well-informed on the subject

That's debatable Deedee.  There is a lot of censorship when it comes to religious expression in schools (not talking about school prayer).  Someone (was it me?) posted a story the other day about a kid who couldn't wear a Jesus costume at school.  That kind of censorship is done by liberals, not conservatives.   

[Dos Equis]

Me either... I had to figure it out on my own. Fortunately, ...I'm a quick study.   

LOL.   

[BRUCE]

That's debatable Deedee.  There is a lot of censorship when it comes to religious expression in schools (not talking about school prayer).  Someone (was it me?) posted a story the other day about a kid who couldn't wear a Jesus costume at school.  That kind of censorship is done by liberals, not conservatives.   

Spot on, it's the Left that indulges in the removal of free speech.  Christianity was the cornerstone for democracy and freedom of expression.

[Hedgehog]

Spot on, it's the Left that indulges in the removal of free speech.  Christianity was the cornerstone for democracy and freedom of expression.

At the same time, you will see many Christian Conservatives pushing to get prayer and Christianity into regular classes.

It goes both ways.

I'm for a secular society, where religion is kept at home.

Religion should never be allowed into schools either.

BRUCE, you would be surprised how big following Intelligent Design has among Christian Conservatives in the USA.

IMO, the Religious radicalisation of the Republican Party may very well be its downfall.

-Hedge

[Dos Equis]

Spot on, it's the Left that indulges in the removal of free speech.  Christianity was the cornerstone for democracy and freedom of expression.

The left is also responsible for "thought crimes."  Definitely a partisan angle, on both sides, when it comes to censorship.     

[Deedee]

Excuse me?  Are you talking to me?

Have you disproved that it was not, in fact, Leftists (not liberals, as you say) that caused this to occur?  Am I to assume you polled the instigators as to their socio/political agenda?

You also have not proved it was the religious Right.

And thanks for the ol' 240 'you're-not-well-informed-but-I-can't-show-you-why' statement.

Yes, silly bunt, this time I'm talking to you.

I think you need to look up the meaning of political correctness. The reason for the censorship was of a moral nature. It's not the same thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the correct labeling of a female bodypart. Vagina is not a dirty word. It is not offensive to women to hear their vaginas being called a vagina. That's why those girls wanted to shout it from the stage.  That's why the liberal author wrote and called her work the Vagina Monologues. It's self-evident that this is not an issue of political correctness at all. Are you saying Bruce, that the vagina is a bad word and it offends you?  

[Deedee]

Spot on, it's the Left that indulges in the removal of free speech.  Christianity was the cornerstone for democracy and freedom of expression.

What a ridiculous statement.

[BRUCE]

At the same time, you will see many Christian Conservatives pushing to get prayer and Christianity into regular classes.

It goes both ways.

I'm for a secular society, where religion is kept at home.

Religion should never be allowed into schools either.

BRUCE, you would be surprised how big following Intelligent Design has among Christian Conservatives in the USA.

IMO, the Religious radicalisation of the Republican Party may very well be its downfall.

-Hedge

I disagree, Hedge.  I'm not a Christian and I don't believe in God, but I do feel the belief system does have a place in education systems of predominately Christian societies like the US.  No one should be forced to believe in any one piety, however, for the majority that do, both sides can be presented.  Pretending most people in the US aren't following the word of Christ isn't an effective means to dealing with religion.  For me, it's important the desires of the majority are at least represented; thus allowing the student to make an informed decision.

As for the 'religious radicalisation' of the Republican Party, well, I certainly don't see things that way.

Christianity is an excellent belief system that encourages freedom of expression and capitalistic ideals.  Even as an Agnostic, I can have faith in the overall good that is created by Christianity in the West.

[BRUCE]

The left is also responsible for "thought crimes."  Definitely a partisan angle, on both sides, when it comes to censorship.     

Yes, Orwell was magnificent and instrumental in noticing this in the Left and bringing it to the attention of the wider community.

[BRUCE]

Yes, silly bunt, this time I'm talking to you.

I think you need to look up the meaning of political correctness. The reason for the censorship was of a moral nature. It's not the same thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the correct labeling of a female bodypart. Vagina is not a dirty word. It is not offensive to women to hear their vaginas being called a vagina. That's why those girls wanted to shout it from the stage.  That's why the liberal author wrote and called her work the Vagina Monologues. It's self-evident that this is not an issue of political correctness at all. Are you saying Bruce, that the vagina is a bad word and it offends you?  

You clearly have comprehension issues.  Have I not condemned this banning?

[Deedee]

You clearly have comprehension issues.  Have I not condemned this banning?

No dearest, it is you who has comprehension issues.  Did you even read the statement put out by the school? The girls were punished (one day detention) because they lied to the faculty. They said they were not going to do something, then did it anyway. I don't know, but where I come from, lying has always had consequences attached.

The girls were not prohibited from expressing their right to freedom of speech in that the school would have been willing to accomodate the play in its entirety if it were advertised as such. So there was in effect, no censoring or banning of the material in a larger sense... in particular, usage of the word vagina.

YOU are the one claiming that this is an issue of political correctness. It isn't. It's a moral issue. And of course, once again it is you who is so quick to claim, (without knowledge of circumstances) that this is an issue of right versus left.  It isn't.

[BRUCE]

No dearest, it is you who has comprehension issues.  Did you even read the statement put out by the school? The girls were punished (one day detention) because they lied to the faculty. They said they were not going to do something, then did it anyway. I don't know, but where I come from, lying has always had consequences attached.

The girls were not prohibited from expressing their right to freedom of speech in that the school would have been willing to accomodate the play in its entirety if it were advertised as such. So there was in effect, no censoring or banning of the material in a larger sense... in particular, usage of the word vagina.

YOU are the one claiming that this is an issue of political correctness. It isn't. It's a moral issue. And of course, once again it is you who is so quick to claim, (without knowledge of circumstances) that this is an issue of right versus left.  It isn't.

Weren't you the one that blamed the religious-Right for this crusade against female genitalia?

[Deedee]

Weren't you the one that blamed the religious-Right for this crusade against female genitalia?

Actually in my very first post on this thread, I said that the girls were punished for lying. Look at your subsequent posts. I was merely responding to your insistence that it's the "left" which censors and bans and used this case as an example for your claim. (It seems to me that you use the words "left" and "liberal" interchangeably, whatever serves your whim of the moment.) I then pointed out to you that in actuality, it is more often than not the religious right which objects to any discussion of sexuality taking place in schools. If you are unaware of this, I suggest you read up on it before you come to any more conclusions.

[BRUCE]

Actually in my very first post on this thread, I said that the girls were punished for lying. Look at your subsequent posts. I was merely responding to your insistence that it's the "left" which censors and bans and used this case as an example for your claim. (It seems to me that you use the words "left" and "liberal" interchangeably, whatever serves your whim of the moment.)

It's humorous you attack me for doing this, when it was, in fact, you that used the words interchangeably.  I have not, and do not.

Where I come from, Liberal is the name given to our Conservative Government, which is just one of the reasons why I don't use it in tandem with 'Left'.

[Deedee]

That's debatable Deedee.  There is a lot of censorship when it comes to religious expression in schools (not talking about school prayer).  Someone (was it me?) posted a story the other day about a kid who couldn't wear a Jesus costume at school.  That kind of censorship is done by liberals, not conservatives.   

I was talking about sexuality. As I said earlier, labeling a woman's vagina as such is not offensive, nor is it politically incorrect. It is in fact, the politically correct way to address a woman's private parts in a public forum.

It would however have been politically incorrect to call a vagina something which might have denigrated women, or made them feel excluded or lesser in some way.

[Deedee]

It's humorous you attack me for doing this, when it was, in fact, you that used the words interchangeably.  I have not, and do not.

Where I come from, Liberal is the name given to our Conservative Government, which is just one of the reasons why I don't use it in tandem with 'Left'.

You dismiss anyone with liberal leanings as "leftist."  It's fairly obvious to everyone here that you do that.

There is no socialist/fascist movement with any clout in the US. No fascist movement has any political power to censor or ban anything. There are basically only two political affiliations to choose from, republican and democrat. So when you refer to the "left" with regard to US politics, who are you referring to? Everyone here infers that you mean liberals.

[Dos Equis]

I was talking about sexuality. As I said earlier, labeling a woman's vagina as such is not offensive, nor is it politically incorrect. It is in fact, the politically correct way to address a woman's private parts in a public forum.

It would however have been politically incorrect to call a vagina something which might have denigrated women, or made them feel excluded or lesser in some way.

I was just referring to these comments:  "In point of fact, most of the censorship taking place in schools across the US is encouraged, loudly, by the religious right. Anyone who thinks overwise, is not well-informed on the subject."

I think it's an overstatement to say censorship in schools is done mostly by the religious right.  Most of the censorship that I hear/read about in the schools involves either religious expression or something PC-related.  I think I (or someone else) posted a story the other day about the kid who was punished for using the word "gay."  This kind of stuff, along with the paranoia about religion, happens far too often.
 

[OzmO]

Where did this all go?

Typically  the conservative Christians censor anything sexual while liberals try to take anything religous out of schools.

Chances are this was decided by some Conservative with a religous leaning.  it's not likely it was a liberal.

And from what i read, it seems they had some obligation to cater to the audience of parents and younger children.  In others words:  political correctness.

[Dos Equis]

Where did this all go?

Typically  the conservative Christians censor anything sexual while liberals try to take anything religous out of schools.

Chances are this was decided by some Conservative with a religous leaning.  it's not likely it was a liberal.

And from what i read, it seems they had some obligation to cater to the audience of parents and younger children.  In others words:  political correctness.

I don't think Christian conservatives try to censor anything sexual.  They just advocate taking a different approach to teaching sex ed (i.e., abstinence over condoms). 

[Deedee]

Where did this all go?

Typically  the conservative Christians censor anything sexual while liberals try to take anything religous out of schools.

Chances are this was decided by some Conservative with a religous leaning.  it's not likely it was a liberal.

And from what i read, it seems they had some obligation to cater to the audience of parents and younger children.  In others words:  political correctness.

No I would say that catering to the audience of parents with younger children falls under the category of keeping age-inappropriate material from children... that falls under the heading of sexuality-based censorship. I would lump that with sex education.  Political correctness refers to a precept that one group of people should not be made to feel less than others.

[Deedee]

I was just referring to these comments:  "In point of fact, most of the censorship taking place in schools across the US is encouraged, loudly, by the religious right. Anyone who thinks overwise, is not well-informed on the subject."

I think it's an overstatement to say censorship in schools is done mostly by the religious right.  Most of the censorship that I hear/read about in the schools involves either religious expression or something PC-related.  I think I (or someone else) posted a story the other day about the kid who was punished for using the word "gay."  This kind of stuff, along with the paranoia about religion, happens far too often.
 

That's why I explained later that I was referring to sexuality-based censorship.

Btw... I doubt that any Christian conservative school would ever allow the Vagina Monologues to be enacted on school grounds.