(26th Sept) Love Or Hate?

[leonp1981]

Randy Orton

Is he the most naturally gifted guy on the roster?  Someone with an undeniable wrestling pedigree, who deserved to be given one of the biggest pushes in recent memory.  While he has successfully managed to be both face and heel, has he developed in the last few years into one of the best heels we have ever seen?  Has he got over some minor misdemeanours in his past to become a very consistent performer.  Is he actually being held back by his own ability, with the majority of the other guys unable to work on his level?

OR

Is he a good heel purely because he really is an arrogant, cocky scum bag?  Is he just another example of the best characters being reflections of the person behind them?  Did he deserve to be put with Evolution and become the youngest ever World Heavyweight Champion?  Should his discharge from the army, his poor attitude, and several incidents early on in his career, have resulted in his release from the company?  In short, does he deserve to be where he is today?

[cobra_4]

I go for the second. I've never been a big fan or Orton. He is cocky and full of himself, acts like an ass away from the ring. He is a good heal but I've never considered him to be a top level performer. He is a b level guy IMO. His name has kept him at the top and in the company IMO.

[leonp1981]

I think the thing with Orton is that he's so good at being the bad guy, everyone is always gonna hate him.  Would he be able to turn face ever again?  And would you cheer for him if he did?

[The Showstoppa]

Orton's dad was an awesome heel.  Very underrated technician too.


Randy is certainly living off his dad, or at least it has helped him a great deal.  He is AWFUL on the mic, course a lot of the newer generation are.  Mediocre to decent worker, nothing special.  He does have that "hate him" quality, but sometimes it goes into the "Xpac hate zone" where he is hated more personally than on a wrestling level.

[Montague]

He does have that "hate him" quality, but sometimes it goes into the "Xpac hate zone" where he is hated more personally than on a wrestling level.

X-Pac Heat (ěkspŏk hēt)
n.
1. When you don't hate the character, but rather you actually hate the guy who's playing the character.
2. Montague's favorite terminology in pro-wrestling vernacular.


 

[leonp1981]

X-Pac Heat (ěkspŏk hēt)
n.
1. When you don't hate the character, but rather you actually hate the guy who's playing the character.
2. Montague's favorite terminology in pro-wrestling vernacular.


 

 

[The Showstoppa]

X-Pac Heat (ěkspŏk hēt)
n.
1. When you don't hate the character, but rather you actually hate the guy who's playing the character.
2. Montague's favorite terminology in pro-wrestling vernacular.


 

haha, I remember watching WCW when he was in the nWo....I just wanted to catch him in a bar and smash his face in.....hahaha

[Playboy]

Orton = Phenomenal 3rd generation star. Very good wrestler, had the best schooling he could have (his father and grandfather) not to mention he is good at drawing heat with the crowd. He IS the future of the WWE.

[leonp1981]

Orton = Phenomenal 3rd generation star. Very good wrestler, had the best schooling he could have (his father and grandfather) not to mention he is good at drawing heat with the crowd. He IS the future of the WWE.

You're the first one to give him a really positive comment!  I'm in the middle with him, I think he's got all the talent in the world, but I'm not sure if he can be bothered half the time.  That match at Wrestlemania was a complete let down, he had another one shortly after that was garbage as well.  So who's to blame for those?  Orton or his opponent?

[cobra_4]

I never thought of the sucks-pac/Orton link but now that I think of it your right, that does seem to be where some of Orton's heat comes from.

[Montague]

You're the first one to give him a really positive comment!  I'm in the middle with him, I think he's got all the talent in the world, but I'm not sure if he can be bothered half the time.  That match at Wrestlemania was a complete let down, he had another one shortly after that was garbage as well.  So who's to blame for those?  Orton or his opponent?

A good worker can usually have a good match even with less than stellar opponents - hence the old expression, "He can wrestle a broom and make it look good."
Perhaps Orton IS a good worker, but doesn't try hard enough when it's showtime - what some might consider the "Dennis Wolfe" of wrestling.

I never thought of the sucks-pac/Orton link but now that I think of it your right, that does seem to be where some of Orton's heat comes from.

"Some" isn't bad - maybe even helps the character's heat.
But when that's the only heat you have...

[Playboy]

You're the first one to give him a really positive comment!  I'm in the middle with him, I think he's got all the talent in the world, but I'm not sure if he can be bothered half the time.  That match at Wrestlemania was a complete let down, he had another one shortly after that was garbage as well.  So who's to blame for those?  Orton or his opponent?

He's young, still room to blossom and if you look back carefully you will see that he's come a very long way in the last couple of years. He needs a bit of work with his promos but other than that his in ring ability are very good. He can execute moves very nicely. He's never hurt anyone. As for his mania match with HHH, personally I don't think those two married well. I have seen a series of matches with those too and they just don't work well together. That can happen to any star any given day and it has, especially in the WWE.

[Montague]

Orton is not the one to beat Taker at WM.
IF anyone does, it should not be him, and C.T. is right in that the end result would not justify it.

[Playboy]

I cannot see him as our future for the Federation. He has one face turn left then where is he gonna go from there? How much better can he possibly get? He's had fueds with practically everyone. I just don't see him as a Superstar? Even if he beat Undertaker at Mania I still think that wouldn't do it for him. He just doesn't have the personality? The sleeve tats aren't helping much either. He went a bit overboard there.

You can't really blame the guy if WWE hasn't got anymore stars for him to fued with. He would stink as a face. I would leave him as is, if anything make him switch brands for new feuds. Taker already beat him at a WM a couple of years ago. Can't see that happening. Mind you, I don't think taker should be defeated at mania.

Personally I think WWE has gotten really, really lame. Who the hell was that ridiculous GM last night on raw? WTF? The need to hire back Bruce Pritchard or someone that can bring in more / better talent for the future or they're in trouble.

[njflex]

i switched to raw and same ol d generation x coming to ring and doing there thing against cody and dibiase for next pay per view,i know shawn is great performer but its getting hard to believe him "beating "up anybody any more,he is small ,but he still has star power  i guess.

[Montague]

Mind you, I don't think taker should be defeated at mania.

^^Agree.
But I also believe that if the old man wanted him to job at WM he would. Taker has a reputation as a leader, but also as a cooperator. He’s been with the Fed consistently longer than any other member on the roster, and I think he and Vince have a mutual respect & understanding for each other.

I also suspect Vince would like to keep Taker happy since “Mark” has served him well all these years, does not cause any trouble or problems, and has stuck out some really daft/stupid shit (like that “crucifixion” angle).

Just my view.

[Playboy]

^^Agree.
But I also believe that if the old man wanted him to job at WM he would. Taker has a reputation as a leader, but also as a cooperator. He’s been with the Fed consistently longer than any other member on the roster, and I think he and Vince have a mutual respect & understanding for each other.

I also suspect Vince would like to keep Taker happy since “Mark” has served him well all these years, does not cause any trouble or problems, and has stuck out some really daft/stupid shit (like that “crucifixion” angle).

Just my view.

Gotta love the taker....been around since 1991. I still remember....he was known as Kane "the Undertaker" managed by Brother love before being revamped to 'The Undertaker" managed by Paul Bearer.

Not sure if too many people know this but The Undertaker is also Vinces "security" backstage and he tunes people up like a piano when they need to be. He threw a very cocky Shawn Michaels out of the arena when he made his temporary comback as GM back in 2001 because he was pilled out of his mind on rec drugs. Taker is the man.

[leonp1981]

Not sure if too many people know this but The Undertaker is also Vinces "security" backstage and he tunes people up like a piano when they need to be. He threw a very cocky Shawn Michaels out of the arena when he made his temporary comback as GM back in 2001 because he was pilled out of his mind on rec drugs. Taker is the man.

I'd love to have seen that!  I read ages ago now that Taker is not averse to losing the streak but he would prefer it to be against someone who is going to be big for years to come.  I think there was talk of Brock taking it when he was around, but that never happened.

[Montague]

Not sure if too many people know this but The Undertaker is also Vinces "security" backstage and he tunes people up like a piano when they need to be. He threw a very cocky Shawn Michaels out of the arena when he made his temporary comback as GM back in 2001 because he was pilled out of his mind on rec drugs. Taker is the man.

I also remember hearing a story that happened backstage at WM 14.
Shawn was apparently “pouting” about jobbing to Austin.
Taker made it known that if Shawn pulled any shit in the ring, he’d have to answer to “the Phenom” after the match.


Vince has also used Bradshaw in an "enforcer-type" capacity over the years.

[Playboy]

I also remember hearing a story that happened backstage at WM 14.
Shawn was apparently “pouting” about jobbing to Austin.
Taker made it known that if Shawn pulled any shit in the ring, he’d have to answer to “the Phenom” after the match.


Vince has also used Bradshaw in an "enforcer-type" capacity over the years.

Your absolutely right about that. Matter of fact, on the Shawn Michaels DVD you see a seen backstage after WM14 when Austin was addressing the press and in the background Shawn was seen kicking...not openeing quietly with his arm....kicking the door open causing a racket. The suck had to even interupt Austin in his moment of glory. He was always a baby backstage and hw was always know to cause major politics. Anyhow, Taker had "words" with him after that match.

[Montague]

Which DVD is that, do you know offhand?
I’ve got one of Shawn’s discs somewhere.
If it's the same one, I’ll have to dig it out and watch.

I’ve never noticed that incident before.
Did they discuss Shawn’s tantrum on the disc, or was it the typical “worked-shoot” that Titan usually puts out?

[Playboy]

Which DVD is that, do you know offhand?
I’ve got one of Shawn’s discs somewhere.
If it's the same one, I’ll have to dig it out and watch.

I’ve never noticed that incident before.
Did they discuss Shawn’s tantrum on the disc, or was it the typical “worked-shoot” that Titan usually puts out?

It is on Shawn Michaels' dvd (not the Heart break & triumph) but his 2nd dvd which is more like a biography on one disc and matches on another disc. When Stone cold won the title there was a press conference after the match were Austin addressed the crowd and a bunch of reporters in the arena. Michaels was visibly seen leaving to the locker rooms and kicking the door open causing half the people to turn around. Acoording to Vince, "it was a bitter pill for Shawn to swallow" loosing to Austin. Michaels never wanted to job to anyone and pass the torch so to speak. They discuss many of Shawn's tantrums on that disc.

[Montague]

Figures...
Mine is the single disc.
I usually never bought any commercial videos, but a buddy gave me this one back when I was training.

[Playboy]

Figures...
Mine is the single disc.
I usually never bought any commercial videos, but a buddy gave me this one back when I was training.

I believe the one you have is the one with all his good matches. His ladder match with razor ramone, his street fight with HHH, etc. His biography dvd is great, but the matches suck because all his goo matches are on your dvd. The did the same thing with Flair's dvd. His first 2 disc dvd is all his good matches. His biography dvd which is phenomenal has a couple of good matches, but the main good fights he had are on his first dvd. I hate it when they do that.

[Montague]

I believe the one you have is the one with all his good matches. His ladder match with razor ramone, his street fight with HHH, etc. His biography dvd is great, but the matches suck because all his goo matches are on your dvd. The did the same thing with Flair's dvd. His first 2 disc dvd is all his good matches. His biography dvd which is phenomenal has a couple of good matches, but the main good fights he had are on his first dvd. I hate it when they do that.

That's the one.
Fukking marketing gurus.