Arnold Jr., with regards to your defending Dave Palumbo's Diet Regimen..

[OneMoreRep]

I think you were somehow debating with Alex A about Dave's regimen, which somehow drastically cuts your body's intake of glucose and then you stated this:

When your brain gets starved like this you're right, it is tough, you feel very lethargic, kind of spaced out, etc. Everyone knows what it feels like to have your blood sugar drop...it's not fun. But here's the deal, if someone puts up with this for a few days, usually 3-4 max, that uneasy feeling goes away...you end up feeling better then before...very even feeling, more then enough ability for concentration, etc. But that's the thing, most people can't or simply aren't willing to give it the 3-4 days needed.

I need to interject and disagree with your comments, feel free to speak to Dave about this and have him shoot a response my way.  I can be wrong, but just taking a shot in the dark here, let me know if you follow. 

The Brain feeds mainly off of Glucose.  The brain can not store both oxygen & glucose, hence why it needs a constant supply of it.  If you were to reduce your brain's supply of glucose, it would start to feel starved.  If your brain starts to feel starved, it will then search for other means of energy. 

Now, here is the clencher, if the brain's metabolism suffers from such a drastic disturbance (subjecting it to such low levels of glucose), it would then naturally convert to anaerobic metabolism.  The sodium pump will fail and sodium will enter the cell and pull water from the extracellular space.  This will lead to a serum sodium decrease and as a result an abnormal accumulation of fluid in the brain cells follows as well as a decrease in the extracellular fluid space.  All of this leads you to developing cytotoxic edema, which will cause an increase in Intracranial Pressure.

With an increase in Intracranial pressure, you can have symptoms like: decreased levels of consciousness, restlessness, irritability, confusion*, headache, nausea, vomiting, slurred speech*, change in sensorimotor status, ataxia, seizures etc...

Consequently, there is just no way that your statement can make logical sense, unless I'm missing something in the big picture.

Speak to Dave about it and get back to me,
"1"

P.S. This is not to prove you wrong so much, just to mainly clear my understanding of his practice.  Again, I can be wrong and maybe Dave is providing your diet with the smallest amount of glucose before sending your body/brain into hypoglycemic shock, but have him chime in and explain. 

P.P.S. * in my explanation denotes common symptoms that most "Pros" exhibit on a day to day basis when on their pre-contest diets..

[240 is Back]

you can have symptoms like: decreased levels of consciousness, restlessness, irritability, confusion*, headache, nausea, vomiting, slurred speech*, change in sensorimotor status

I miss my drinking days.

[the Pure Majestic]

I think you were somehow debating with Alex A about Dave's regimen, which somehow drastically cuts your body's intake of glucose and then you stated this:

I need to interject and disagree with your comments, feel free to speak to Dave about this and have him shoot a response my way.  I can be wrong, but just taking a shot in the dark here, let me know if you follow. 

The Brain feeds mainly off of Glucose.  The brain can not store both oxygen & glucose, hence why it needs a constant supply of it.  If you were to reduce your brain's supply of glucose, it would start to feel starved.  If your brain starts to feel starved, it will then search for other means of energy. 

Now, here is the clencher, if the brain's metabolism suffers from such a drastic disturbance (subjecting it to such low levels of glucose), it would then naturally convert to anaerobic metabolism.  The sodium pump will fail and sodium will enter the cell and pull water from the extracellular space.  This will lead to a serum sodium decrease and as a result an abnormal accumulation of fluid in the brain cells follows as well as a decrease in the extracellular fluid space.  All of this leads you to developing cytotoxic edema, which will cause an increase in Intracranial Pressure.

With an increase in Intracranial pressure, you can have symptoms like: decreased levels of consciousness, restlessness, irritability, confusion*, headache, nausea, vomiting, slurred speech*, change in sensorimotor status, ataxia, seizures etc...

Consequently, there is just no way that your statement can make logical sense, unless I'm missing something in the big picture.

Speak to Dave about it and get back to me,
"1"

P.S. This is not to prove you wrong so much, just to mainly clear my understanding of his practice.  Again, I can be wrong and maybe Dave is providing your diet with the smallest amount of glucose before sending your body/brain into hypoglycemic shock, but have him chime in and explain. 

P.P.S. * in my explanation denotes common symptoms that most "Pros" exhibit on a day to day basis when on their pre-contest diets..

I'm assuming you have no knowledge of ketones, right?  
Or how in the absence of sufficient circulating blood glucose, the brain will begin utilizing ketones for fuel?

What happens is, fat is converted to fatty acids, and the fatty acids are converted to 3 types of ketones.  2 of these are usable as fuel in the Kreb's cycle.  

For all intents and purposes, the brain and heart utilize these ketones in much the same way they would use glucose.  
Once this process is reached, the body will feel quite comfortable.  



And, what are you talking about the sodium pump?  
Are you confusing a lowered level of circulating blood glucose with hyponatremia?  

If that is the case, you've actually f'd that up too.  For the most part, as blood sodium levels drop, the body tends to increase its level of circulating blood glucose.  This is partly due to the decreased rate of glycogenesis secondary to the hyponatremia.  In this case of a "failed sodium pump," the brain will have plenty of glucose to use as fuel.  This is the least of its worries at this point.  


Just because you took a semester of "health" at the local community college, and later read about water intoxication on the internet doesn't make it acceptable for you to vomit your theories out on the internet.

[On_Swole]

Guys, no need for all of this cutting and pasting. It's called "lipolysis". Look it up. 

[no one]

I'm assuming you have no knowledge of ketones, right? 
Or how in the absence of sufficient circulating blood glucose, the brain will begin utilizing ketones for fuel?

What happens is, fat is converted to fatty acids, and the fatty acids are converted to 3 types of ketones.  2 of these are usable as fuel in the Kreb's cycle. 

For all intents and purposes, the brain and heart utilize these ketones in much the same way they would use glucose. 
Once this process is reached, the body will feel quite comfortable. 



And, what are you talking about the sodium pump? 
Are you confusing a lowered level of circulating blood glucose with hyponatremia? 

If that is the case, you've actually f'd that up too.  For the most part, as blood sodium levels drop, the body tends to increase its level of circulating blood glucose.  This is partly due to the decreased rate of glycogenesis secondary to the hyponatremia.  In this case of a "failed sodium pump," the brain will have plenty of glucose to use as fuel.  This is the least of its worries at this point. 


Just because you took a semester of "health" at the local community college, and later read about water intoxication on the internet doesn't make it acceptable for you to vomit your theories out on the internet.

what he said.

palumbo's diet works.

it' s just a bitch to fill out afterwards as you are so glycogen depleted.

the 2 carb up days consisting of the 60 grams of carb per meal over 6 meals for me were no where near enough.

thats the only draw back.

i actually found i had more energy, and greater strength running a keto than a typical carb rotation diet.

[Van_Bilderass]

Guys, no need for all of this cutting and pasting. It's called "lipolysis". Look it up. 

What does lipolysis have to do with what these guys are talking about?

[the Pure Majestic]

Guys, no need for all of this cutting and pasting. It's called "lipolysis". Look it up. 

Is that the utilization of human lips for energy?

[swilkins1984]

I've been on it for about 3 weeks. The first 3 days were hell but now I really feel good with no energy crashes and my strength hasn't really noticably dropped. Carbs are nice but you really don't need them when dieting. The only drawback is the food selection.

[On_Swole]

What does lipolysis have to do with what these guys are talking about?

http://m.1asphost.com/lowcarb/thesciencebit_lipolysis.htm

[the Pure Majestic]

http://m.1asphost.com/lowcarb/thesciencebit_lipolysis.htm

Way to go destroy a perfectly good chance at over-analyzed chest thumping over minute physiological processes.   

Next time you're going to crush an intricate display of the importance of Circadian rhythmic timing in progressive overloaded training cycles by saying "go lift weights." 

[Van_Bilderass]

http://m.1asphost.com/lowcarb/thesciencebit_lipolysis.htm

Yeah but you don't have to be in ketosis to have lipolysis occurring. Otherwise you could never lose fat eating carbs.

[the Pure Majestic]

Yeah but you don't have to be in ketosis to have lipolysis occurring. Otherwise you could never lose fat eating carbs.

You can't lose fat when insulin is present.

[Van_Bilderass]

You can't lose fat when insulin is present.

Depends on what you mean by that. You have basal levels of insulin all the the time, no? A diabetic who takes long acting insulin wouldn't be able to lose fat if this were true. You can eat small carb meals all day long and have insulin produced and lose fat as long as you're hypocaloric.

[the Pure Majestic]

Depends on what you mean by that. You have basal levels of insulin all the the time, no? A diabetic who takes long acting insulin wouldn't be able to lose fat if this were true. You can eat small carb meals all day long and have insulin produced and lose fat as long as you're hypocaloric.

Are you saying that you're not sure?  And, since you're not sure, you should leave this type of talk to us grown ups? 

If you understood the action of insulin on the cell, you'd understand that oxidizing fatty acids for energy by the mitochondria ain't happenin.

[YoungBlood]

You can't lose fat when insulin is present.

If you ask DaddyWaddy, he'll tell you that if you smoke a big fattie, that it will raise your insulin levels and you can burn all the fat you want all day long.
Sad thing is, I'm not kidding either. He really believes this, there is a thread about it somewhere.

[the choad]

Depends on what you mean by that. You have basal levels of insulin all the the time, no? A diabetic who takes long acting insulin wouldn't be able to lose fat if this were true. You can eat small carb meals all day long and have insulin produced and lose fat as long as you are using DNP


fixed

[the Pure Majestic]

If you ask DaddyWaddy, he'll tell you that if you smoke a big fattie, that it will raise your insulin levels and you can burn all the fat you want all day long.
Sad thing is, I'm not kidding either. He really believes this, there is a thread about it somewhere.

I'll let you in on a little secret....
The fact that YOU believe he is serious about that is funnier than him claiming to believe this.  



Daddy is a good bloke.  A bit of a cad, and clearly no more intelligent than most forms of pavement, but he is good at getting people to believe his hogwash.

[Arnold jr]

I think you were somehow debating with Alex A about Dave's regimen, which somehow drastically cuts your body's intake of glucose and then you stated this:

I need to interject and disagree with your comments, feel free to speak to Dave about this and have him shoot a response my way.  I can be wrong, but just taking a shot in the dark here, let me know if you follow. 

The Brain feeds mainly off of Glucose.  The brain can not store both oxygen & glucose, hence why it needs a constant supply of it.  If you were to reduce your brain's supply of glucose, it would start to feel starved.  If your brain starts to feel starved, it will then search for other means of energy. 


Now, here is the clencher, if the brain's metabolism suffers from such a drastic disturbance (subjecting it to such low levels of glucose), it would then naturally convert to anaerobic metabolism.  The sodium pump will fail and sodium will enter the cell and pull water from the extracellular space.  This will lead to a serum sodium decrease and as a result an abnormal accumulation of fluid in the brain cells follows as well as a decrease in the extracellular fluid space.  All of this leads you to developing cytotoxic edema, which will cause an increase in Intracranial Pressure.

With an increase in Intracranial pressure, you can have symptoms like: decreased levels of consciousness, restlessness, irritability, confusion*, headache, nausea, vomiting, slurred speech*, change in sensorimotor status, ataxia, seizures etc...

Consequently, there is just no way that your statement can make logical sense, unless I'm missing something in the big picture.

Speak to Dave about it and get back to me,
"1"

P.S. This is not to prove you wrong so much, just to mainly clear my understanding of his practice.  Again, I can be wrong and maybe Dave is providing your diet with the smallest amount of glucose before sending your body/brain into hypoglycemic shock, but have him chime in and explain. 

P.P.S. * in my explanation denotes common symptoms that most "Pros" exhibit on a day to day basis when on their pre-contest diets..

"Pure Majestic" makes some good points...the main point being that on this type of diet, abundant glucose is not needed to sustain you...and the bodies production of Ketone's being the key to this fact.

Once the body enters ketosis, it's primary source of energy is derived from the ketone bodies being produced...on of the best things about this is that there is an unlimited supplie of ketone's...you don't' run out. Something else to consider, you'll notice I said "Primary" source of energy...you're still taking in a small amount of carbs on this style of diet...about 50g per day, plus however many you consume on the once per wk cheat meal. But this is not enough to throw you out of ketosis.

I could go on and on, but for the purpose of this argument some info by Dave would probably serve better.


"On my recommended high protein/moderate fat/low low card diet, your muscle glycogen levels are very low, however, they never get depleted since the only activity that requires glucose (carbs) is WEIGHT TRAINING. And since you probably only require 50g carbs per workout, you'll have no problems since that's just about the amount you'll be taking in per day (from indirect sources-- nuts, peanut butter, whole eggs, ect). Also, you'll be having a cheat meal once per week which will act to reload glycogen stores."

"....Remember, the brain is not using carbs when in a state of ketosis so carb intake (even after the workout) is unnecessary."

This last one here should also clear up what you referred to as the "clincher."

KETOACIDOSIS is fatal. The only situation where ketoacidosis occurs in the undiagnosed diabetic. In that one situation, the person loses their ability to produce insulin and blood sugar levels soar (since insulin is required to absorb carbs). As blood sugar levels rise, and the brain starves for energy (since it can't get to the sugar), the brain eventually switches over to burning ketone's (fats). Now you are in a state of Ketosis. However, since blood sugar is so high, the blood starts to get acidified (something that is not compatible with life). At this point, the person is said to be in KETO-ACIDOSIS. The ketosis that we are SELF INDUCING by "restricting" carbs is a 100% safe metabolic state whereby the blood pH is normal (alkaline), therefore, there's no disease state and nothing unhealthy about it.

[OneMoreRep]

I'm assuming you have no knowledge of ketones, right? 
Or how in the absence of sufficient circulating blood glucose, the brain will begin utilizing ketones for fuel?

What happens is, fat is converted to fatty acids, and the fatty acids are converted to 3 types of ketones.  2 of these are usable as fuel in the Kreb's cycle. 

For all intents and purposes, the brain and heart utilize these ketones in much the same way they would use glucose. 
Once this process is reached, the body will feel quite comfortable.

My scenario places these bodybuilders the point where their bodyfat levels are at their lowest (i.e. 2-3 days before a contest, where significant depletion of nutritional intake has also been reached & where maybe even their glycogen storage has been shot), so your entire idea of Ketones plays no argument in what I said, since you are probably considering their weight at the beginning of their diet, whereas I'm looking at it based on them being days out. 

And, what are you talking about the sodium pump? 
Are you confusing a lowered level of circulating blood glucose with hyponatremia? 

If that is the case, you've actually f'd that up too.  For the most part, as blood sodium levels drop, the body tends to increase its level of circulating blood glucose.  This is partly due to the decreased rate of glycogenesis secondary to the hyponatremia.  In this case of a "failed sodium pump," the brain will have plenty of glucose to use as fuel.  This is the least of its worries at this point.

The point I was aiming at was with regards to the potential for anaerobic metabolism to take place, which again would be an extreme.

Just because you took a semester of "health" at the local community college, and later read about water intoxication on the internet doesn't make it acceptable for you to vomit your theories out on the internet.

Dude, I sat 3 rows away from Collete at NYU right as she was just getting started with her nutritional ride.  If anything, I suspect this might be Collete herself coming to defend her hubby.  Shut the fuck up and go back to World's gym, the one a block from Coles..

EDIT: The only reason I resorted to calling out Collete is because I found that this "Pure Majestic" character seemed very moved by my original post, yet it could very well be someone else.  My original post can clearly be seen as one of curiosity, since I even purposely added a disclaimer at the end stating that I could very well be wrong and wanted to hear Dave's take on it.  The mere fact that you decided to become a real big clitoris and start flinging shit at the end makes me want to pull the curtain on Palumbo and his whole circus side show act, but whatever, the eyeliner industry needs someone to buy their products..

[candidizzle]

Depends on what you mean by that. You have basal levels of insulin all the the time, no? A diabetic who takes long acting insulin wouldn't be able to lose fat if this were true. You can eat small carb meals all day long and have insulin produced and lose fat as long as you're hypocaloric.

Are you saying that you're not sure?  And, since you're not sure, you should leave this type of talk to us grown ups? 

If you understood the action of insulin on the cell, you'd understand that oxidizing fatty acids for energy by the mitochondria ain't happenin.

you are both correct. with high levels of insuling present it is impossible to burn any amount of fat. with moderate to low levels of insuling present you CAN burn fat, but the more insulin the tougher it is to burn the fat.

most keto advocated would have you believe that fat loss is physically impossible with carbs in your system, this is just closed mindedness. while a keto diet is very effective and while limiting insulin secretion as much as possible is ideal whiel dieting; you can still lose fat very effectively with low amounts of insulin being released.

[dr.chimps]

I'll let you in on a little secret....
The fact that YOU believe he is serious about that is funnier than him claiming to believe this. 



Daddy is a good bloke.  A bit of a cad, and clearly no more intelligent than most forms of pavement, but he is good at getting people to believe his hogwash.

I'ma gonna steal that one. 

[The Squadfather]

you are both correct. with high levels of insuling present it is impossible to burn any amount of fat. with moderate to low levels of insuling present you CAN burn fat, but the more insulin the tougher it is to burn the fat.

most keto advocated would have you believe that fat loss is physically impossible with carbs in your system, this is just closed mindedness. while a keto diet is very effective and while limiting insulin secretion as much as possible is ideal whiel dieting; you can still lose fat very effectively with low amounts of insulin being released.

"insuling"?

[ManBearPig...]

"insuling"?

that must be what he's on to help him maintain that ungodly muscle mass.

[OneMoreRep]

Pure, get at my post above.

[Van_Bilderass]

Are you saying that you're not sure?  And, since you're not sure, you should leave this type of talk to us grown ups? 

If you understood the action of insulin on the cell, you'd understand that oxidizing fatty acids for energy by the mitochondria ain't happenin.

No I'm not sure which is why I had the question mark. Could you explain a bit more closely?

I want to know what the statement "fat can't be burned in the presence of insulin" really means. Does it mean ALL mobilization of fat stops if there is any insulin being released? Or is it a matter of degree how much lipolysis is inhibited?