"Stuck in Iraq"

[Cavalier22]

What is lost in all this, what no one seems to point out, is that Bush had a 76 average at Yale while kerry finished with a 75.  If Bush was being "intellectually lazy", which he probbaly was, what does that say about Kerry.

[MKD]

The Kerry comment reflects the thinking of his era.  When Kerry was in Vietnam, one way to avoid the draft was to go to college-- hence do well in school, go to college, and avoid Vietnam.  The remark was probably directed towards President Bush, but it still reflects a poor grasp of reality. The reason his comment was ignorant is because the facts do not back up his claim.  The American military is the most educated military in the world.  99% of enlisted troops have a high school education, most have some college experience and degrees.  The majority of officers have Master's degrees.  That is the most important piece of information to take away from his comment.  These are the guys "stuck in Iraq."

[Dos Equis]

Democrats are condemning Kerry's comments too:

Among the Democrats joining the chorus critical of Kerry's comment was potential 2008 presidential rival New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, who, while stopping short of demanding an apology, called Kerry's comments "inappropriate."

"I think elections are about the future," Clinton told reporters at an event for military families in New York. "No one wants see us re-fight the 2004 election. ...What Senator Kerry said was inappropriate."

Kerry's "inappropriate" comment came during a campaign appearance Monday in California at Pasadena City College. He told students if they make the most of their educations, "you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well.

"And if you don't, you get stuck in Iraq," he said, a comment that touched off a political firestorm of criticism that has yet to die down.

. . .

Other Democrats, meanwhile, joined the call for a Kerry apology, with one — Senate hopeful Jon Tester of Montana — not pulling his punches.

"Senator Kerry's remarks were poorly worded and just plain stupid," said Tester, the Montana Senate president trying to unseat GOP Sen. Conrad Burns. "He owes our troops and their families an apology."

North Carolina Democratic Party Chairman Jerry Meek said Democrats should "absolutely disassociate ourselves from any criticism of our troops, misunderstood or otherwise."

Tennessee Senate hopeful Rep. Harold Ford Jr., who received a campaign visit Wednesday from former President Bill Clinton, was first to come forward and lead the Democratic call for Kerry to apologize.

"Whatever the intent, Senator Kerry was wrong to say what he said," Ford told reporters. "He needs to apologize to our troops."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,226584,00.html

Bravo! 

[240 is Back]

What???     This isn't a constitutional issue at all.  It's about a public official who made a stupid comment and refuses to apologize for it. 

I agree.  You made it one when you tried to remove his first amendment rifghts by saying: "Every American is not entitled to express his or own opinion in any way they choose. "

This will actually be a good teaching tool for my kids.  I've been working with my teenagers on being accountable and accepting responsibility, something Kerry has a problem with.    

I'm all for that.  While I believe he was insulting Bush, who knows, maybe he was insulting the system which feeds poor kids to iraqi bullets to keep the US oil coffers filled.

[Dos Equis]

I agree.  You made it one when you tried to remove his first amendment rifghts by saying: "Every American is not entitled to express his or own opinion in any way they choose. "

There is no absolute right to say whatever you want, wherever you want.  There are time, place, and manner restrictions and the First Amendment does not apply unless the government is trying to regulate speech.       

In any event, this ain't a First Amendment issue and I don't really want to debate the First Amendment with you.  I was talking about judgment and responsibility.  But we're going around in circles . . . .   

[240 is Back]

There are time, place, and manner restrictions and the First Amendment does not apply unless the government is trying to regulate speech.      

Based upon the law?  Or just societal/cultural norms? 

What times does the 1st amendment not apply?

[Dos Equis]

Based upon the law?  Or just societal/cultural norms? 

What times does the 1st amendment not apply?

Based on the First Amendment.  "Societal/cultural norms" can influence how the First Amendment is interpreted.  For example, "fighting words" are not protected speech.   

I said it doesn't apply unless the government is trying to regulate speech.  That's pretty broad.   

As for examples of time, place, and manner restrictions, try yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  The next time you fly, tell the flight attendant that "the airline really sucks and someone should blow up the plane."  Pen an op ed piece for your local paper saying the president should be assassinated.  There are numerous other examples. 

[OzmO]

Based on the First Amendment.  "Societal/cultural norms" can influence how the First Amendment is interpreted.  For example, "fighting words" are not protected speech.   

I said it doesn't apply unless the government is trying to regulate speech.  That's pretty broad.   

As for examples of time, place, and manner restrictions, try yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.  The next time you fly, tell the flight attendant that "the airline really sucks and someone should blow up the plane."  Pen an op ed piece for your local paper saying the president should be assassinated.  There are numerous other examples. 

If you yell "fire" in a crowded theater or your words incite a riot that cuases damage or injuries then your freedom of speech rights aren't applicable.

But if you voice your opinion about soldiers in Iraq, regardless of you being a public figure, you are well with in your freedom fo speech rights to do so.  What consequences result for you politically is your own problem.

[Dos Equis]

If you yell "fire" in a crowded theater or your words incite a riot that cuases damage or injuries then your freedom of speech rights aren't applicable.

But if you voice your opinion about soldiers in Iraq, regardless of you being a public figure, you are well with in your freedom fo speech rights to do so.  What consequences result for you politically is your own problem.

Kerry isn't exercising free speech rights, because the First Amendment doesn't apply to his comments.  The government isn't trying to regulate his comments.  I think many of the people condemning his comments (or least one fool sitting on a rock in middle of the ocean) believe (1) he shouldn't have made the comments in the first place; (2) public officials have to exercise good judgment when speaking to the public; and (3) when you make a mistake, which we all do, accept responsibility and try and make it right.     

[OzmO]

Kerry isn't exercising free speech rights, because the First Amendment doesn't apply to his comments.  The government isn't trying to regulate his comments.  I think many of the people condemning his comments (or least one fool sitting on a rock in middle of the ocean) believe (1) he shouldn't have made the comments in the first place; (2) public officials have to exercise good judgment when speaking to the public; and (3) when you make a mistake, which we all do, accept responsibility and try and make it right.     

I agree.  As a public official he has to face the consequences of his actions.  But he still can say what ever he wants.  He's just likely to lose his job as a result.  And he should. 

That was a career changing mistake.

[240 is Back]

Kerry isn't exercising free speech rights, because the First Amendment doesn't apply to his comments.  The government isn't trying to regulate his comments.  I think many of the people condemning his comments (or least one fool sitting on a rock in middle of the ocean) believe (1) he shouldn't have made the comments in the first place; (2) public officials have to exercise good judgment when speaking to the public; and (3) when you make a mistake, which we all do, accept responsibility and try and make it right.    

Everyone agrees he's an idiot for saying that, no matter what his intentions were.

But it's his first amendment right to say anything he pleases on the mic.

he might shoot himself in the foot, destroy his own career (although this will blow over, these things always do), he might violate party ethics rules, whatever.  But it's his right.



Noteworthy is the fact that even if Kerry is getting beaten down, the topic has not changed.  The war on iraq is still the issue in the forefront.  And that benefits one party far more than the other.  Plus since polls show that nothing has changed in voters' eyes in the last two weeks despite the monster october surprises from both sides, none of this shit matters.

[Dos Equis]

He apologized.  That's good. 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,226820,00.html

[OzmO]

He apologized.  That's good. 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,226820,00.html

I think only cause he was forced too.   

[Mr. Intenseone]

I think only cause he was forced too.   

I agree...plus it's a little to late now!

[Dos Equis]

I think only cause he was forced too.   

True.  He's still an idiot, but I would have an even lower opinion of him if didn't apologize.

[OzmO]

True.  He's still an idiot, but I would have an even lower opinion of him if didn't apologize.

I'm not so sure i do.  His apology only shows me he crumbled under pressure to save his political career.  Personally, even if i don;t agree with him, holding to his statements and standing by them is more respectable.  To me he's no different than any other political wiesel.

[Mr. Intenseone]

He apoligized on his website not in a public forum!

[OzmO]

He apoligized on his website not in a public forum!

Yeah.............  but now a days, a website, is kind of the same thing.

[dr.chimps]

.

[Hugo Chavez]

Wow... 2 days of the republican's main issue being kerry?  I thought they said dems didn't have any issues   I guess seeing them drop in the polls again shows what America thinks of two days of Kerry while all this other important stuff is going on... republicans... Kerry/gaymarriage/flagburning.... jeez... losers.

[Mr. Intenseone]

Wow... 2 days of the republican's main issue being kerry?  I thought they said dems didn't have any issues  

Yeah, 2 days with 5 to go....Kerry's got great timeing as usual, if it was like 60 or even 30 days out his people MIGHT be able to do some damage control, but 5 days.....he REALLY fucked up!!