Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!

[polychronopolous]

What's crazy is do we know the net worth of the big holders now?  the Winkelvoss twins were already worth billions when bitcoin was at $5k.  They may actually be the richest people on earth if they can somehow sell.  Problem is once they try to unload the value is going to tank.  So this is a sllllloooooowwww burn game.  Sell a bit at a time to not shake the market up.

[Mayday]

Schiff is right.

Not really.

The idea of holding is to take out debt against BTC and avoiding paying taxes.

Assume today at a 1T market you have 1M in BTC. Assume BTC will hit 100T in 10yrs which give you 100M in BTC. Borrow 100k/yr, add some 5% interest and some CPI each year and you end up with something like 10M debt and 90M capital never having paid taxes.

It’s a pretty compelling argument when a worker is faced paying 50% income tax vs an alternative saying hey, you pay me 5% a year instead of 50% and keep your asset which will double in value each year.

Today you can put up your BTC as collateral and borrow against it. Put your BTC in escrow, I believe it’s 9% interest per year and you can borrow 35% of it’s value.


Can average Joe do that with physical gold?

[Bindare_Dundat]

Its hilarious, we dropped to a price that people were masterbating over just recently and the haters rejoice and thr newbies panic. The rest, buy. Lol

[Mayday]

Its hilarious, we dropped to a price that people were masterbating over just recently and the haters rejoice and thr newbies panic. The rest, buy. Lol

58k down to 46.7k in a day is pretty brutal to be fair. A huge number just got wrecked.

Saylor had 800M in tether created the other day. The long massive wick on today’s pullback is him crashing the market and buying it back up.

If January Tesla play done by Saylor is anything to go buy, the 2nd day of market manipulation drove a lower price than the first day. I’m placing buy orders to hopefully snap something up cheap in the wick

[polychronopolous]

Not really.

The idea of holding is to take out debt against BTC and avoiding paying taxes.

Assume today at a 1T market you have 1M in BTC. Assume BTC will hit 100T in 10yrs which give you 100M in BTC. Borrow 100k/yr, add some 5% interest and some CPI each year and you end up with something like 10M debt and 90M capital never having paid taxes.

It’s a pretty compelling argument when a worker is faced paying 50% income tax vs an alternative saying hey, you pay me 5% a year instead of 50% and keep your asset which will double in value each year.

Today you can put up your BTC as collateral and borrow against it. Put your BTC in escrow, I believe it’s 9% interest per year and you can borrow 35% of it’s value.


Can average Joe do that with physical gold?

That's pretty much exactly what Saylor mentioned to Ben Askren when asked when would be a good time to sell.

[obsidian]

Not really.

The idea of holding is to take out debt against BTC and avoiding paying taxes.

Assume today at a 1T market you have 1M in BTC. Assume BTC will hit 100T in 10yrs which give you 100M in BTC. Borrow 100k/yr, add some 5% interest and some CPI each year and you end up with something like 10M debt and 90M capital never having paid taxes.

It’s a pretty compelling argument when a worker is faced paying 50% income tax vs an alternative saying hey, you pay me 5% a year instead of 50% and keep your asset which will double in value each year.

Today you can put up your BTC as collateral and borrow against it. Put your BTC in escrow, I believe it’s 9% interest per year and you can borrow 35% of it’s value.


Can average Joe do that with physical gold?

So are you then basically paying the debt off with the interest? The BTC amount in escrow stays the same but the interest is paid into a fiat checking account?

Also, what's in it for the company paying out interest? If you put your BTC in escrow are they investing those funds that the BTC represents? Why would they pay out 9% interest? They must be making money somehow...

[obsidian]

That's pretty much exactly what Saylor mentioned to Ben Askren when asked when would be a good time to sell.

Yes I saw that recently:

[obsidian]

What's crazy is do we know the net worth of the big holders now?  the Winkelvoss twins were already worth billions when bitcoin was at $5k.  They may actually be the richest people on earth if they can somehow sell.  Problem is once they try to unload the value is going to tank.  So this is a sllllloooooowwww burn game.  Sell a bit at a time to not shake the market up.

No they are not the richest. They are worth about $3.5 billion. If BTC 20x from here to $1 million they would be worth $70 billion. Musk and Bezos are worth around $160 billion right now. And the Rothschilds and the other "families" are worth trillions - but Forbes won't mention this.

https://decrypt.co/57041/winklevoss-twins-bitcoin-fortune-billion-elon-musk

Also this is interesting:

https://bitcointreasuries.org/

[obsidian]

Stage 3 of Grief - Bargaining.

"If I were to ACTUALLY buy some Bitcoin"

The tide is starting to turn my friends.

Lol yes when Schiff buys in you sell lmao!

[Theoak*]

58k down to 46.7k in a day is pretty brutal to be fair. A huge number just got wrecked.

Saylor had 800M in tether created the other day. The long massive wick on today’s pullback is him crashing the market and buying it back up.

If January Tesla play done by Saylor is anything to go buy, the 2nd day of market manipulation drove a lower price than the first day. I’m placing buy orders to hopefully snap something up cheap in the wick

Yep, just  put another 10.5k into btc when I saw the spike down..

[obsidian]

[obsidian]

Ivan not worried. Corrections are healthy. He is also expecting an incoming Ethereum pump.

You have to respect the daaamp and the paaamp!

[obsidian]

Yep, just  put another 10.5k into btc when I saw the spike down..

Cool. Did you do this with fiat from a bank account or you happened to have the funds in stable coins? I told myself to sell some ETH for stable coins when it hit $2k but was too lazy to move and don't want to complicate my taxes too much. Next time it pumps to 2.5k or 3k I might. You have to decide if it is worth the tax hassles. I am still getting a steady influx of ETH on a weekly basis via mining. I am getting ETH for under $300 because I am basically trading an electrical bill for ETH.

[obsidian]

Read the comments. Hilarious!

[obsidian]

[polychronopolous]

So are you then basically paying the debt off with the interest? The BTC amount in escrow stays the same but the interest is paid into a fiat checking account?

Also, what's in it for the company paying out interest? If you put your BTC in escrow are they investing those funds that the BTC represents? Why would they pay out 9% interest? They must be making money somehow...

BlockFi allows you to take out a loan on their platform, as do a few others.

I threw some numbers in there for a 50k loan

Collateral amount 2.84BTC(current BTC price of 51,149)
Monthly payment - $335.75
Loan to Value - 35%
Interest rate - 7.9%

Here is a good listen with the founder of BlockFi where he explains the services his platform provides.

Here is another couple links to their website where they discuss the process

https://blockfi.com/resource-center#items2

https://blockfi.com/how-to-payoff-or-refinance-your-crypto-loan

[gib]

BlockFi is pretty amazing, if legit. Lots of rumors about how they are taking risks behind the scenes. I am not sure where they are legally based nor how well regulated or transparent they are. But yes, their basic operating model is legit. What I would say is that margins of businesses such as theirs will come down massively as similar companies and smart contracts enabling DeFi ramp up.

[gib]

Didn't some getbiggers bought Bitcoins? They should cash in while it's still hot now!


Bitcoin spikes 70% in a month; nobody knows why
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/03/bitcoins-price-jumps-more-than-70-in-one-month.html


Bitcoin to be 6th largest reserve currency by 2030:
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/03/bitcoin-to-be-6th-largest-reserve-currency-by-2030-research.html

We have "cashed in" our fake money fiat cash (which we know ALWAYS devalues over time) which is why we now HODL our BTC (which we know, despite volatility), ALWAYS increases over time.

[gib]

I'd be pissed if my parents left me Bitcoin as inheritance.  They might as well pass down a glass of tap water to you.

Leaving BTC for your kids is provably one of the best things a parent could leave. If you have kids or loved ones, I think it would be essential to leave them Bitcoin. Not only because of the huge increases in value over time, but also for the immediate access and transferability anywhere globally, immediate divisibility, avoiding the hassle of estate wind-up, taxes, etc.

What is vital though is that create a mechanism to give each intended recipient a safe way to access and retrieve the coins.

You could also set up a smart contract structure that vests the coins on a certain date, or drip-feeds value over time.

Imagine immediately becoming a wholecoiner or even a quartercoiner overnight. You would be set up for life in the future. A wonderful way to pass on generational value.

[Mayday]

So are you then basically paying the debt off with the interest? The BTC amount in escrow stays the same but the interest is paid into a fiat checking account?

Also, what's in it for the company paying out interest? If you put your BTC in escrow are they investing those funds that the BTC represents? Why would they pay out 9% interest? They must be making money somehow...

Your BTC goes into escrow. You take out a loan that covers living costs plus the loan repayments. You make repayments from the loan money.

While in escrow the BTC appreciates in value, just like if you mortgage your house it still appreciates in value.

The thinking is BTC appreciates at a rate faster than you accumulate debt and interest. Therefore let’s say you take a 5yr loan, at the end of the first year you have the BTC revalued and take out a new loan against the new valuation. Rinse and repeat.

It’s the same idea as mortgaging a house except the rate of future value increases massively outstrips your debt accumulation allowing you to constantly close and open new loans based on higher asset valuations.

9% interest is 4 times higher than a bank loan so it’s a great return for the lenders. In a nutshell the lenders are institutions with shares and large capital which they use as security to acquire loans at 0.25% which they lend to you at 9%. They make a killing!

[gib]

Your BTC goes into escrow. You take out a loan that covers living costs plus the loan repayments. You make repayments from the loan money.

While in escrow the BTC appreciates in value, just like if you mortgage your house it still appreciates in value.

The thinking is BTC appreciates at a rate faster than you accumulate debt and interest. Therefore let’s say you take a 5yr loan, at the end of the first year you have the BTC revalued and take out a new loan against the new valuation. Rinse and repeat.

It’s the same idea as mortgaging a house except the rate of future value increases massively outstrips your debt accumulation allowing you to constantly close and open new loans based on higher asset valuations.

9% interest is 4 times higher than a bank loan so it’s a great return for the lenders. In a nutshell the lenders are institutions with shares and large capital which they use as security to acquire loans at 0.25% which they lend to you at 9%. They make a killing!

Yep - your counterparty risk though if your give money to BlockFi is  that they are not legit, overleveraged, etc and you lose your underlying coin. But in theory their model works, and the business is a good one. (Those counterparty risks will be solved with smart contracts over time).

[Mayday]

Brutal attack on BtC right now. Just watched it rip down 2k in about 45 seconds lol.

[gib]

Brutal attack on BtC right now. Just watched it rip down 2k in about 45 seconds lol.

Yep and some of the alts being brutally raped hard.

I am around USD $350K down over 24 hours. Not feeling concerned at all. 

For anyone worried, especially newbies, I would suggest chilling and zooming out. Long term trend is well intact and will be for years. 2025 halvening event will be before us before we know it...

[Mayday]

Yep and some of the alts being brutally raped hard.

I am around USD $350K down over 24 hours. Not feeling concerned at all. 

For anyone worried, especially newbies, I would suggest chilling and zooming out. Long term trend is well intact and will be for years. 2025 halvening event will be before us before we know it...

I’d be a lot happier if ETH didn’t look like it caught Aids!

We have a near complete unwinding of the ETHBTC ratio back to 0.032. If the ETHBtC chart means anything the bottom is 0.029 which is where it tapped last time before a strong rally.

It’ll be fine but given I just got a 61k estimate to fix my car motor seeing ETH adds a nice solid kick to the nuts for the day.


Depending on how ugh the price goes this year we may see future halvings play a vastly diminished role.

[Bindare_Dundat]

I’d be a lot happier if ETH didn’t look like it caught Aids!

We have a near complete unwinding of the ETHBTC ratio back to 0.032. If the ETHBtC chart means anything the bottom is 0.029 which is where it tapped last time before a strong rally.

It’ll be fine but given I just got a 61k estimate to fix my car motor seeing ETH adds a nice solid kick to the nuts for the day.


Depending on how ugh the price goes this year we may see future halvings play a vastly diminished role.

Blood in the water now. All coins  getting destroyed. Therses probably more mass panic selling today.  Wonder if people are still putting lasers in their eyes after this kick in that balls to the price?

Im still holding bitcoin  but don't think this one is stopping anytime soon. Probably headong below yesterday's lowest wick. everyone is going to run stories of how shit cryto is and you'll.lose all your money, etc...

What is wrong with yoir car for a bill that high?