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Getbig Main Boards => General Topics => Topic started by: Camel Jockey on August 23, 2006, 06:37:15 AM
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Why is he saying that supporting Ned Lamont for the senate seat in Connecticut is like supporting Al-Queda? Does having common sense and not supporting a bogus war that many conservatives have already labeled as a mistake make you a Al-Queda supporter?
Many have already come out and said that they were lead to the war with faulty and bogus intelligence, so the war is a mistake and has absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror, so WHY IS CHENEY FALLING BACK ON THE WAR AS A FRONT ON TERRORISM? WHY IS THIS MOTHER FUCKER FEEDING MORE AND MORE BULLSHIT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?
I'm tired of this administration frightening and lying to the American to keep themselves in office. What's equally pathetic is that most Americans are fucking stupid enough to fall of their lies and bullshit not once, but twice, and they'll fall for it again in the '08 elections. No doubt these neo-cons will pull more bullshit out of their ass.
Just had to rant. When I heard Cheney make these statements, it just shocked me that this fucker would stoop that low. What's even worse is that there are people dumb enough to swing their support over to right-wing assholes. Aren't they smart enough to know what only Liberals are sophisticated enough to win the war on terror?
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You answered your own question: they are falling back on the terrorism angle because people fall for it over and over. When people are afraid you can get them to do anything, even support chicken hawks who have no idea what they are doing.
As someone said in another thread: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz in charge of the military is the equivalent of "lions led by donkeys."
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you can only play the 'terror card' so many times. The white house's connection to israel's connection to lieberman means they really don't want him to lose face and power by losing.
we're looking at a great lesson on macropsychology here.
will the american people wisen up and see thru the BS?
Exciting time to be watching history unfold.
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you can only play the 'terror card' so many times. The white house's connection to israel's connection to lieberman means they really don't want him to lose face and power by losing.
we're looking at a great lesson on macropsychology here.
will the american people wisen up and see thru the BS?
Exciting time to be watching history unfold.
From the look of things, a lot of Americans don't want to wisen up.
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From the look of things, a lot of Americans don't want to wisen up.
ahh but many do :)
1/3 are onto Bush's games and see some holes in the terror game and loss of personal freedoms, and they're pissed.
1/3 of the US likes letting the govt tell then what to say and do, cause it feels safer and more reassuring.
1/3 of the US doesn't know or doesn't care. And it is obvious that the battle is being fought everyday for those 100M people. You have the media playing airline scares in the UK and you see Bush's approval rating spike up to 42%. But at the same time, you have 100,000 internet CTers spreading the 911 words to anyone who will listen.
The pro-Bush and anti-bush people are usually set in their ways and prefer the blinders. but the 1/3 in the middle are up for grabs :)
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You just know Mr. Intenseone is furiously typing away at a reply to this thread that features either a Kerry bashing or a Kennedy bashing.
How dare you point out any shortcomings in the Republican party when there are so many Liberals out there to be lambasted.
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ahh but many do :)
1/3 are onto Bush's games and see some holes in the terror game and loss of personal freedoms, and they're pissed.
1/3 of the US likes letting the govt tell then what to say and do, cause it feels safer and more reassuring.
1/3 of the US doesn't know or doesn't care. And it is obvious that the battle is being fought everyday for those 100M people. You have the media playing airline scares in the UK and you see Bush's approval rating spike up to 42%. But at the same time, you have 100,000 internet CTers spreading the 911 words to anyone who will listen.
The pro-Bush and anti-bush people are usually set in their ways and prefer the blinders. but the 1/3 in the middle are up for grabs :)
Yeah, but the people that see through the Bush's lies are thought of as Liberal extremists with a bad agenda, so it's hard to get your point across to people that are up for grabs, because they think you really aren't genuinely concerned for the well being of this great country.
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Yeah, but the people that see through the Bush's lies are thought of as Liberal extremists with a bad agenda, so it's hard to get your point across to people that are up for grabs, because they think you really aren't genuinely concerned for the well being of this great country.
In 2002, that's how they were viewed. But for many, seeing some strong evidence that 9/11 was staged causes them to open up their mind a bit.
And today, I think it's different. 52% of Americans dont' believe Iraq has anything to do with the war on terror. And Bush's 90%+ war approval rating is long gone.
And I wish people would stop making this a rep vs. Dems argument and immediately start bashing one candidate or another. Can't you see that when you make it about one person or one party or label one group, you're missing out on the BIGGER PICTURE?
ReOpen the 911 investigation. People of both party are completely innocent, and people of both parties played along or knew before. Let's get all the chips on the table, find out who, if anyone, was guilty of treasonous behavior, then vote for new people from each party.
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You just know Mr. Intenseone is furiously typing away at a reply to this thread that features either a Kerry bashing or a Kennedy bashing.
You forgot Clinton. :)
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watch the news. Huge bin Laden cycle in there.
click on www.cnn.com
front page has info on bin laden fantasizing about whitney houston (this will grab eyes of younger people who don't follow politics but do follow celebrty news
then we have a poll - 'most americans believe bin laden will be caught'. Anyone who loves polls will jump on this and remember bin laden and be scared.
And of course, "Trees and tapes may hint at bin Laden location" - more reminders that we are on his trail.
Would a triumphant Bush/Condi press conference in which bin laden being killed was announced (of course, thanks to our in-country wiretapping) be a surprise to anyone, given the news cycle? Certainly would help the Repubs retain the house/senate.
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ahh but many do :)
1/3 are onto Bush's games and see some holes in the terror game and loss of personal freedoms, and they're pissed.
1/3 of the US likes letting the govt tell then what to say and do, cause it feels safer and more reassuring.
1/3 of the US doesn't know or doesn't care. And it is obvious that the battle is being fought everyday for those 100M people. You have the media playing airline scares in the UK and you see Bush's approval rating spike up to 42%. But at the same time, you have 100,000 internet CTers spreading the 911 words to anyone who will listen.
The pro-Bush and anti-bush people are usually set in their ways and prefer the blinders. but the 1/3 in the middle are up for grabs :)
Then there are those who support the president, support the war on terror, support the troops, but still have a healthy distrust of government.
Neither party has clean hands when it comes to the expanded role of government, particularly Democrats. One of the hallmarks of the Democrat party the past couple of decades has been an expanded role of the federal government: taxes, socialized healthcare, etc. Republicans have issues too, e.g., socialized legal system (i.e., "tort reform"), etc.
I was listening to Bush the other day and I still believe he is trying to do what's best for the country. Being a wealthy lame duck, he really has no stake in the decisions he makes, other than doing what he thinks will benefit Americans in the long run. I'm actually glad he's in office.
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I'm actually glad he's in office.
that being said-
would you feel the same way if he had prior knowledge of 911 and one of your family members had taken a header off the Towers to avoid being burned to death?
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I'll just sit back and watch him slowly prove people wrong just like he's always done, but since the Bush/Cheney hatred is so thick no one wants to give credit when credit is due!!
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that being said-
would you feel the same way if he had prior knowledge of 911 and one of your family members had taken a header off the Towers to avoid being burned to death?
::)!
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You just know Mr. Intenseone is furiously typing away at a reply to this thread that features either a Kerry bashing or a Kennedy bashing.
How dare you point out any shortcomings in the Republican party when there are so many Liberals out there to be lambasted.
HAHAHAH So TRUE!
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I voted for bush twice. I loved the guy.
But he didn't follow evacuation protocol on 911.
And he FOUGHT a 911 investigation.
Then refused to testify.
It just makes no sense. He just looks guilty.
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Same here, but the guy can only fuck us so many times before it starts to hurt. LoL Use some lube like Clinton for god sakes.
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issues too, e.g., socialized legal system (i.e., "tort reform"), etc.
I was listening to Bush the other day and I still believe he is trying to do what's best for the country. Being a wealthy lame duck, he really has no stake in the decisions he makes, other than doing what he thinks will benefit Americans in the long run. I'm actually glad he's in office.
Exactly! He's trying to do what he thinks is right in his own mind. But what he's doing is not the right thing, he's destroying America's long-term reputation.
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I voted for bush twice. I loved the guy.
But he didn't follow evacuation protocol on 911.
And he FOUGHT a 911 investigation.
Then refused to testify.
It's amazing how many people forget that or think it doesn't matter. :'( On that basis alone he should have been turned out.
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I'll just sit back and watch him slowly prove people wrong just like he's always done, but since the Bush/Cheney hatred is so thick no one wants to give credit when credit is due!!
Credit for WHAT? ::)
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that being said-
would you feel the same way if he had prior knowledge of 911 and one of your family members had taken a header off the Towers to avoid being burned to death?
No, I wouldn't be glad he was in office if he knew about 9/11, engaged in a conspiracy to carry out 9/11, and is responsible for the murder of 3,000 innocent people.
I'd also want him out if he turned out to be a closet pedophile, is a serial killer, and has a secret wife and second family on the side.
But since none of those things have happened, I don't lose any sleep over those kinds of wild conspiracy theories.
I spend more time worrying about the policies and positions he takes, including his support for lower taxes -- one of my favorite issues.
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But since none of those things have happened, I don't lose any sleep over those kinds of wild conspiracy theories.
Fair enough.
Does any of this bother you?
He didn't follow evacuation protocol on 911.
And he FOUGHT a 911 investigation.
Then refused to testify.
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Fair enough.
Does any of this bother you?
He didn't follow evacuation protocol on 911.
And he FOUGHT a 911 investigation.
Then refused to testify.
1. Yes, if true, and he didn't have a legitimate reason for not doing so.
2. No, because there is already a bipartisan 9/11 commission.
3. No. I didn't have a problem with Clinton refusing to testify in the Monica-gate investigation either.
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2. No, because there is already a bipartisan 9/11 commission.
No no - I meant does it bother you that Bush fought the creation of that 911 commission? For a year and a half, he said it wasn't needed. Finally, when the widows went on enough tv shows, he agreed to one, but staffed it with, well, you look them up ;)
1. Yes, if true, and he didn't have a legitimate reason for not doing so.
He wouldn't explain why he calmly sat and read books that morning after the second plane hit, even though the lawyers for the 911 widows pleaded for the 911 commission to ask that Q. And they wouldn't ask the head of the secret service about it either. It was a very direct violation of secret service protocol, and it cannot be blamed on incompetence - Andy card and the head of the secret service were tehre and NOBODY left.
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No no - I meant does it bother you that Bush fought the creation of that 911 commission? For a year and a half, he said it wasn't needed. Finally, when the widows went on enough tv shows, he agreed to one, but staffed it with, well, you look them up ;)
He wouldn't explain why he calmly sat and read books that morning after the second plane hit, even though the lawyers for the 911 widows pleaded for the 911 commission to ask that Q. And they wouldn't ask the head of the secret service about it either. It was a very direct violation of secret service protocol, and it cannot be blamed on incompetence - Andy card and the head of the secret service were tehre and NOBODY left.
Fighting the commission doesn't really bother me. He already knew who was responsible for 9/11. From what I recall, his advisors determined fairly quickly that Bin Laden was behind the attacks.
Let's assume he screwed up by finishing reading stories to little school kids and that the "protocol" required him to stop reading to kids and start barking out orders. Unless this inaction resulted in the loss of life or some other consequence, what's the big deal?
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Fighting the commission doesn't really bother me. He already knew who was responsible for 9/11. From what I recall, his advisors determined fairly quickly that Bin Laden was behind the attacks.
How did the advisors know? They hadn't asked anyone, they had nothing but a few weird phone calls and a bunch of burned bodies.
Before the last plane had hit, his only talking point on TV was "We will punish those responsible". Everyone was talking about bin Laden immediately.
You don't see it strange that the US leader would fight an investigation which would lead to uncovering the flaws that let it happen that day, which could protect us in the future?
Let's assume he screwed up by finishing reading stories to little school kids and that the "protocol" required him to stop reading to kids and start barking out orders. Unless this inaction resulted in the loss of life or some other consequence, what's the big deal?
many believe the "big deal" is that his failure to follow standard protocol in the case of a national attack showed that he KNEW he was safe. And if there was another reason, they should just tell us.
Dude, the prez was shady as fuck that day and afterwards. No other way to put it. The US leader FOUGHT the investigation. No other way to put it. You can say "he already knew cause his advisers told him", but since his advisors were all neo-cons with war plans ready, would a rational man take their word at face value?
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How did the advisors know? They hadn't asked anyone, they had nothing but a few weird phone calls and a bunch of burned bodies.
Before the last plane had hit, his only talking point on TV was "We will punish those responsible". Everyone was talking about bin Laden immediately.
You don't see it strange that the US leader would fight an investigation which would lead to uncovering the flaws that let it happen that day, which could protect us in the future?
many believe the "big deal" is that his failure to follow standard protocol in the case of a national attack showed that he KNEW he was safe. And if there was another reason, they should just tell us.
Dude, the prez was shady as f**k that day and afterwards. No other way to put it. The US leader FOUGHT the investigation. No other way to put it. You can say "he already knew cause his advisers told him", but since his advisors were all neo-cons with war plans ready, would a rational man take their word at face value?
I'm not surprised at all that the Secretary of Defense, National Security Advisor, Joint Chiefs, Secretary of State, etc. were able to quickly determine the culprits. That's their job.
So Bush knew he was safe when the second plane hit because he helped organize the murder of innocent civilians, and that's the reason he finished reading to the kids? That's absurd.
I'm not sure what a "neo-conservative" is, but if it means far right wing conservative, I wouldn't put Colin Powell in that category.
In the days following the attacks the president was an absolute stud. His job was to man the bully pulpit, reassure the American people, and start planning our military operations. He did an outstanding job. Nothing shady about that.
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In the days following the attacks the president was an absolute stud. His job was to man the bully pulpit, reassure the American people, and start planning our military operations. He did an outstanding job. Nothing shady about that.
And in the days BEFORE he was satirized as a clown, a buffoon, and a thief.
911 saved his ass, ...and got the public to forget about the fact that he stole the election.
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And in the days BEFORE he was satirized as a clown, a buffoon, and a thief.
911 saved his ass, ...and got the public to forget about the fact that he stole the election.
So?
A thief?
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And in the days BEFORE he was satirized as a clown, a buffoon, and a thief.
911 saved his ass, ...and got the public to forget about the fact that he stole the election.
Yep and i got a sun tan becuase the niners played the raiders in a pre season game. But before that i wasn't as tan.
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I'm not sure what a "neo-conservative" is, but if it means far right wing conservative, I wouldn't put Colin Powell in that category.
You seriously haven't heard of a neo-con before?
It's a fairly common term. I recommend you read up on what that word means, and the PNAC document while you're at it. Look at the PNAC author list, and compare that to what political positions they hold today. It will open your eyes to a lot of possibilities.
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And in the days BEFORE he was satirized as a clown, a buffoon, and a thief.
911 saved his ass, ...and got the public to forget about the fact that he stole the election.
Another conspiracy. Bush must have huddled with the Supreme Court and figured out how to screw up the ballots in Florida and had an opinion prepared that would have halted a recount to ensure a Bush win.
Oh, and they hypnotized all those voters in Gore's home state of Tennessee and made them vote for Bush! Gore could have won the election if he carried his home state. Somebody form a commission! I demand an investigation!
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Another conspiracy. Bush must have huddled with the Supreme Court and figured out how to screw up the ballots in Florida and had an opinion prepared that would have halted a recount to ensure a Bush win.
Oh, and they hypnotized all those voters in Gore's home state of Tennessee and made them vote for Bush! Gore could have won the election if he carried his home state. Somebody form a commission! I demand an investigation!
There wasn't a conspiracy in the election, the American People are just plain "_________________" (fill in the blank based on who you voted for)
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You seriously haven't heard of a neo-con before?
It's a fairly common term. I recommend you read up on what that word means, and the PNAC document while you're at it. Look at the PNAC author list, and compare that to what political positions they hold today. It will open your eyes to a lot of possibilities.
I've seen the term use a lot on this board, but mainly as a pejorative, so I haven't bothered to figure out what it really means.
According to Webster's, neoconservatism is "moderate political conservatism espoused or advocated by former liberals or socialists."
Sounds like the oft-repeated definition of a reformed liberal: anyone who has grown up and now pays taxes.
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So?
A thief?
Remember Halliburton?
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Remember Halliburton?
Yes.
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I've seen the term use a lot on this board, but mainly as a pejorative, so I haven't bothered to figure out what it really means.
According to Webster's, neoconservatism is "moderate political conservatism espoused or advocated by former liberals or socialists."
Sounds like the oft-repeated definition of a reformed liberal: anyone who has grown up and now pays taxes.
Read some other sources on it. The neo-conservative/PNAC Project used to be a small cult 'thinktank" for organized growth of US interests overseas. No, this group runs the White House.
Read, man. It's scary stuff!
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Read some other sources on it. The neo-conservative/PNAC Project used to be a small cult 'thinktank" for organized growth of US interests overseas. No, this group runs the White House.
Read, man. It's scary stuff!
I hate fox news. But I watch it because I want to see what other people's point of views are.
I then can make an informed decision based on what is being reported by more than one source...fox, bbc, cnn, et al.
Bush did quote that he wasn't concerned about Bin Laden.
Now, Bush is stating that he NEVER said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.
So, what was the point of invading?
Terroism is an ideal, it is not a place or person you can sever like frostbitten toe.
"We're not leaving(Iraq) as long as I am president" (over 2 years).
"That would be a huge mistake, If you think it's bad now imagine if what Iraq would look like if the US leaves before the government can defend and sustain itself"
His rhetoric has change from "bring it on" and "the Iraqi people will welcome us and see us as liberators."
Even Bush Sr. and Clinton knew to leave that region alone.
Invading Iraq has not changed it or the Middle East for the Better.
Sandra
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I hate fox news. But I watch it because I want to see what other people's point of views are.
I then can make an informed decision based on what is being reported by more than one source...fox, bbc, cnn, et al.
Bush did quote that he wasn't concerned about Bin Laden.
Now, Bush is stating that he NEVER said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.
So, what was the point of invading?
Terroism is an ideal, it is not a place or person you can sever like frostbitten toe.
"We're not leaving(Iraq) as long as I am president" (over 2 years).
"That would be a huge mistake, If you think it's bad now imagine if what Iraq would look like if the US leaves before the government can defend and sustain itself"
His rhetoric has change from "bring it on" and "the Iraqi people will welcome us and see us as liberators."
Even Bush Sr. and Clinton knew to leave that region alone.
Invading Iraq has not changed it or the Middle East for the Better.
Sandra
God help us all, there can't possibly be two jaguars :'(!!
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He wouldn't explain why he calmly sat and read books that morning after the second plane hit, even though the lawyers for the 911 widows pleaded for the 911 commission to ask that Q. And they wouldn't ask the head of the secret service about it either. It was a very direct violation of secret service protocol, and it cannot be blamed on incompetence - Andy card and the head of the secret service were tehre and NOBODY left.
I'm pretty sure GWB doesn't want to come across as an idiot. And admitting to sitting around reading books during the biggest attack on USA since the Boston Tea Party...
He would look like someone with the intellect of a 5-year old.
And you say it cannot be blamed on incompetence? How do you know that Bush didn't tell his SS guys to leave him alone?
I think it very well can be blamed on incompetence.
And that is the reason why Bush don't want it aired publicly. Not because there's some fix.
YIP
Zack
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I'm pretty sure GWB doesn't want to come across as an idiot. And admitting to sitting around reading books during the biggest attack on USA since the Boston Tea Party...
He would look like someone with the intellect of a 5-year old.
And you say it cannot be blamed on incompetence? How do you know that Bush didn't tell his SS guys to leave him alone?
I think it very well can be blamed on incompetence.
And that is the reason why Bush don't want it aired publicly. Not because there's some fix.
YIP
Zack
I don't think so. Reporters said that the Marine with the Bush team that morning announced "We're out of here" the second he heard the news then was spoken to by the secret service and he did nothing. At that exact moment, Secret Service protocol kicked in, and every OTHER person in DC who mattered was picked up and led underground, no matter what they were doing or where they were.
All except the most powerful man on the planet?
No way are they that incompetent. No way. You're telling me that two airliners have struck buildings in NYC, klling thousands, the worst attack in history, and they don't implement protocol that they use when they get anonymous threatening calls or unsubstantiated reports?
All I want is for them to ask the head of teh secret service why, in the most violent attack here in 60 years, he stood there and ignored protocol. If he is that incompetent, he should be fired. And Bush DOES NOT have the power to just shrug off threats.
Just ask them on the stand. Taht's all i want.
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You want the head of the secret service to tell the world about how they guard the president. The two guys with arguably the most dangerous job on the planet. You want them to provide "evidence" to support a conspiracy theory.
Man this is nuts.
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You want the head of the secret service to tell the world about how they guard the president. The two guys with arguably the most dangerous job on the planet. You want them to provide "evidence" to support a conspiracy theory.
No. Their policy is very public and very well known. When the President might be in danger, they move him to a safe location. This isn't a secret, man.
His visit was well-publicized, 3 days in advance and all over Sarasota news. I live right up the road. He was in a school, not the easiest place to secure. And there were stolen planes in the sky.
I want the head of the secret service to tell the American people why he endangered the pres by NOT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE THAT EVERY OTHER SECRET SERVICE AGENT FOLLOWED THAT DAY. Was he incompetent, or was he following orders. And if so, whose order?
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No. Their policy is very public and very well known. When the President might be in danger, they move him to a safe location. This isn't a secret, man.
His visit was well-publicized, 3 days in advance and all over Sarasota news. I live right up the road. He was in a school, not the easiest place to secure. And there were stolen planes in the sky.
I want the head of the secret service to tell the American people why he endangered the pres by NOT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE THAT EVERY OTHER SECRET SERVICE AGENT FOLLOWED THAT DAY. Was he incompetent, or was he following orders. And if so, whose order?
Who cares why a secret service agent did what he was told? And how did he endanger the president? The attacks were in New York and D.C., not Florida.
All you want is "evidence" to support a nonexistent conspiracy theory. I don't blame the prez one bit for not talking about secret service protocol just to support a wild theory. It would serve no useful purpose.
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No way are they that incompetent. No way. You're telling me that two airliners have struck buildings in NYC, klling thousands, the worst attack in history, and they don't implement protocol that they use when they get anonymous threatening calls or unsubstantiated reports?
Yes way.
We had a similar case 12 years ago, when a big ferry went down, 800+ Swedes drowned.
It all took place in the early hours of the morning, and the main Radio News station called their News Editor to inform him on the events (he was in bed and sleeping at the time naturally), and he told them to not call him again and disturb. And went back to sleep.
He was later on fired for this inability to grasp what happened.
I'm pretty sure the same thing is what's going on here. Bush wants privacy, tells his guards that no matter what happens, he don't want to be disturbed. And they obey.
An order like that would look real bad if it came out in the public.
YIP
Zack
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Who cares why a secret service agent did what he was told? And how did he endanger the president? The attacks were in New York and D.C., not Florida.
How did it endanger the president? They were 3 miles away from an airport. At that time, there were wargames going on and there were planes everywhere missing. They did not have the information about the DC and Penn planes (hadn't crashed yet), but even a first year police acadey kid guarding a kitten would realize that if some group had the motive, ability, skill, and wherewithal to fly planes into towers, they just might have the capacity to ruin Bush's day at an elementary school?
Seriously, can anyone here with military or police expereince weigh in here?
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um
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Yeah sure..look we practice and train to do all kinds of stuff...alot of the tactics i was trained on as a marine grunt have been shit canned due to how people really react in combat. As a tanker in the Army we did all kinds of stuff..drilles etc that have been proved to be impractical or don't work once they are conducted during a real situation.
The situation that day was something that we have never faced in our history. We were attacked on our own soil...almost on live TV..we watched our countrymen die on Fox and CNN. Pearl harbor has is no comparison because this happened during the information age. I remember all the crazy stuff that happened where i was. We moved armor to the main gates of the base. They wanted to start handing out weapons..this was all on American soil. I can just imagine what the situation was with the President and his team.
All we have to go on is what we have seen in the movies. Secret service agents hustling the president into a Limo. I think GB wanted to figure out what was going on and with camera's rolling...having his detail push him into car and speed off would look like panic...he did the right thing as it turns out. They got him into the air and he eventually got back to DC. There was a ton of confusion and they didn't follow the playbook...ok well shit happens. It does not point to a fore knowledge of the attack. It points to the agenst and the president being stunned and human.
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Yeah sure..look we practice and train to do all kinds of stuff...alot of the tactics i was trained on as a marine grunt have been shit canned due to how people really react in combat. As a tanker in the Army we did all kinds of stuff..drilles etc that have been proved to be impractical or don't work once they are conducted during a real situation.
The situation that day was something that we have never faced in our history. We were attacked on our own soil...almost on live TV..we watched our countrymen die on Fox and CNN. Pearl harbor has is no comparison because this happened during the information age. I remember all the crazy stuff that happened where i was. We moved armor to the main gates of the base. They wanted to start handing out weapons..this was all on American soil. I can just imagine what the situation was with the President and his team.
All we have to go on is what we have seen in the movies. Secret service agents hustling the president into a Limo. I think GB wanted to figure out what was going on and with camera's rolling...having his detail push him into car and speed off would look like panic...he did the right thing as it turns out. They got him into the air and he eventually got back to DC. There was a ton of confusion and they didn't follow the playbook...ok well shit happens. It does not point to a fore knowledge of the attack. It points to the agenst and the president being stunned and human.
I hear what you are saying here. Practice and reality are often different.
But i don;t think it's unreasonable to expect more of a "reaction" from the president when he hears an airlliner crashed into the World Trade Center.
A look of astonishment or wonderment perhaps?
A big "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
seemed to be more appropiate. Instead he just took the info and continued his reading.
To me that suggests he was told something happened he already was expecting.
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I'm not sure what a "neo-conservative" is, but if it means far right wing conservative, I wouldn't put Colin Powell in that category.
Nobody would classify Colin Powell as a neo-con I believe. If you look at the Republican Party, we all know that it's quite diversified. Just like the Democrats. You'll find guys like Powell and McCain in the Republican Party. As well as guys like Karl Rove.
Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove. A few of the neo-cons in the Bush Administration.
YIP
Zack
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Seriously, can anyone here with military or police expereince weigh in here?
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Beach Bum and Head Hunter Six are military.
From the tapes of that day the president didn't leave Florida until the act of terrorism were finished. He then went on Air Force 1 and was not seen for the rest of the day.
After the first Trade Tower was hit they knew how many planes were in the sky and I am sure the secret srevice thought it would best to keep him there.
The president isn't responsible for his own safety, if the secret service wanted him moved he would be moved weither he wanted to be or not.
That is a fact.
Also, I am sure that the President and the Secret Service didn't want to panic the children and America on National Television.
I always thought he was rather brave that day.
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Yeah sure..look we practice and train to do all kinds of stuff...alot of the tactics i was trained on as a marine grunt have been shit canned due to how people really react in combat. As a tanker in the Army we did all kinds of stuff..drilles etc that have been proved to be impractical or don't work once they are conducted during a real situation.
The situation that day was something that we have never faced in our history. We were attacked on our own soil...almost on live TV..we watched our countrymen die on Fox and CNN. Pearl harbor has is no comparison because this happened during the information age. I remember all the crazy stuff that happened where i was. We moved armor to the main gates of the base. They wanted to start handing out weapons..this was all on American soil. I can just imagine what the situation was with the President and his team.
All we have to go on is what we have seen in the movies. Secret service agents hustling the president into a Limo. I think GB wanted to figure out what was going on and with camera's rolling...having his detail push him into car and speed off would look like panic...he did the right thing as it turns out. They got him into the air and he eventually got back to DC. There was a ton of confusion and they didn't follow the playbook...ok well shit happens. It does not point to a fore knowledge of the attack. It points to the agenst and the president being stunned and human.
Sounds reasonable to me.
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240
Beach Bum and Head Hunter Six are military.
From the tapes of that day the president didn't leave Florida until the act of terrorism were finished. He then went on Air Force 1 and was not seen for the rest of the day.
After the first Trade Tower was hit they knew how many planes were in the sky and I am sure the secret srevice thought it would best to keep him there.
The president isn't responsible for his own safety, if the secret service wanted him moved he would be moved weither he wanted to be or not.
That is a fact.
Also, I am sure that the President and the Secret Service didn't want to panic the children and America on National Television.
I always thought he was rather brave that day.
I agree.
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I am sure that the President and the Secret Service didn't want to panic the children and America on National Television.
{ROTFLOL} Ya, why should he when he had FOX, CNN, and every other broadcaster panicking the nation for him?
I don't buy it. He could have slipped away or gotten out of reading without panicking those kiddies very easily.
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{ROTFLOL} Ya, why should he when he had FOX, CNN, and every other broadcaster panicking the nation for him?
I don't buy it. He could have slipped away or gotten out of reading without panicking those kiddies very easily.
yep.
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{ROTFLOL} Ya, why should he when he had FOX, CNN, and every other broadcaster panicking the nation for him?
I don't buy it. He could have slipped away or gotten out of reading without panicking those kiddies very easily.
Correct. The media, the kids, the teachers were all targets at that point. If the president just found out that the second plane had hit, then there were still two more missing in the air, and many many more *wargame hijacked*. Monster confusion, sure. But when someone posted "He knew the other planes were in DC, not FL" that is pure bunk. The other planes would be in the air for another hour. He had no knowledge of them not heading for FL, or other planes in the FL area heading his way, that hadn't been deteceted yet.
I am a simple web designer, and off the top of my head I can think of a dozen ways he was vulnerable. To think that the top security detail in the world would just say "well, those hijacked planes are all up north. let's read about goats- we're safe" is absurd. their job is to carry him out the door if he won't go- and everyone else in washington was picked up and rushed out that AM.
Absurd.
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I guess that settles it. The president and secret service had no intelligence at all about the president's safety, so the fact that he finished reading a story to little kids proves he was involved in a sinister conspiracy to murder innocent people. I'm convinced.
Comical.
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I guess that settles it. The president and secret service had no intelligence at all about the president's safety, so the fact that he finished reading a story to little kids proves he was involved in a sinister conspiracy to murder innocent people. I'm convinced.
Comical.
i could be completely wrong about this but I would think "protocol" would dictate they do something immediatly to protect him with this happens.
But it wasn't so much that.... It was the look on his face that suggested a great many things.
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I guess that settles it. The president and secret service had no intelligence at all about the president's safety, so the fact that he finished reading a story to little kids proves he was involved in a sinister conspiracy to murder innocent people. I'm convinced.
Comical.
No, he started a book reading session after hearing "A second plane has hit the towers- American is under attack". Then he did some Q & A about whether the kids like to read more, or watch TV more.
If they didn't know that 2 planes were going to hit the towers, then they certainly didn't know that the president and those kids were 1000% safe on the ground in a public school. If they had no knowledge, then were suddenly given the info that terrorists are attacking, and bush is so hated worldwide, it would be reasonable to assume that he could be a target.
Funny that you assume the intelligence they had was good enough to guarantee his safety, but at the same time bad enough that they had no advance knowledge of the 4 planes taking nosedives that day.
Either he knew the score, or he didn't. If he knew, he was criminally treasonous for letting it happen. If he didn't he was criminally negligent by reading about goats while the US was under attack and he is by far the most valuable target to a terrorist.
Which is it?
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i could be completely wrong about this but I would think "protocol" would dictate they do something immediatly to protect him with this happens.
Right. Perhaps there would have been a 30-second delay while his men talked and worked out their plan. But 12 or 13 minutes of standing around quietly while he read- that is absurd. in any other scenario where there is a slight danger, he is surrounded, politely says his goodbyes, and is taken to a secure location fast. And that is for little things. Bigger things, like hijacked jets crashing national landmarks, well... they followed protocol with everyone else. Dick Cheney tried to waive off his security detail and was literally carried to an underground bunker, as were others. The second the news of the second hit went down, they were all grabbed and they ran for a bunker.
Except the biggest target of them all. You add that to the hundreds of other things that don't make sense that day, and what does your gut tell you?
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i could be completely wrong about this but I would think "protocol" would dictate they do something immediatly to protect him with this happens.
But it wasn't so much that.... It was the look on his face that suggested a great many things.
Ya, that his brain is adled.
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They lied about the Bin Laden tape.
They lied about why WTC7 fell, to anyone with a pair of eyes.
They sold the crime scene to china for scrap metal instead of testing it.
They fought ever starting an investigation until people sued for it.
They won't show any of the confiscated security tapes from hotels and gas stations near the Pentagon.
They are guilty as shit. At the very least, of fore-knowledge and a coverup. At the worst, complicity in the attacks.
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i could be completely wrong about this but I would think "protocol" would dictate they do something immediatly to protect him with this happens.
But it wasn't so much that.... It was the look on his face that suggested a great many things.
I don't know secret service protocol, but I would imagine it requires them to ensure the president's safety with broad discretion to determine how that is done. I doubt they have to do anything immediately if the don't think the president is in imminent danger.
The look on his face? Are you saying the look on his face suggests or confirms a criminal conspiracy? Where is the blueprint for a facial expression when the most powerful man in the world is just told about an act, not yet confirmed as terrorism, has just taken place, and he's reading to a bunch of school kids? It should have been shock, surprise, anger, poker face? I say poker face, particularly when there is a camera in your face in front of a bunch of kids.
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No, he started a book reading session after hearing "A second plane has hit the towers- American is under attack". Then he did some Q & A about whether the kids like to read more, or watch TV more.
If they didn't know that 2 planes were going to hit the towers, then they certainly didn't know that the president and those kids were 1000% safe on the ground in a public school. If they had no knowledge, then were suddenly given the info that terrorists are attacking, and bush is so hated worldwide, it would be reasonable to assume that he could be a target.
Funny that you assume the intelligence they had was good enough to guarantee his safety, but at the same time bad enough that they had no advance knowledge of the 4 planes taking nosedives that day.
Either he knew the score, or he didn't. If he knew, he was criminally treasonous for letting it happen. If he didn't he was criminally negligent by reading about goats while the US was under attack and he is by far the most valuable target to a terrorist.
Which is it?
240 I have to think you don't believe all this stuff. You're just trying to play devil's advocate, no? What law did he break and who was harmed by this "criminal negligence"?
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I don't know secret service protocol, but I would imagine it requires them to ensure the president's safety with broad discretion to determine how that is done. I doubt they have to do anything immediately if the don't think the president is in imminent danger.
The President is in a school, a very unsecure place. There are a million points of entry in a FL public elementary school. They use the 'campus' layout, in which you can walk onto campus from any direction.
It doesn't take 30 minutes to ascertain that "if this terror group can fly 2 planes into two towers, they just might have plans for ruining the day of the most valuable terror target in the world.
Yet, the pres was told at 9:02 and he still spoke to reporters at 9:30, as planned. No deviation from plan that day. He only spent 15 min with the kids and 10 on phone with cheney, instead of 20 with the kids and 10 prep time for media.
Dude, if you were in charge of the life of the President, and you saw that some terror group had managed to jack two planes that you knew of (they may have know about 2+ more), and you had a small security detail at a school, wouldn't a little light go off that said "maybe he might be in a LITTLE danger"? Then, maybe you'd realize that maybe, just maybe, he might be a little safer somewhere that isn't an open campus school in a publicized media stop? I mean, this guy has one job. Keep the prez from danger. And with as many variables that were happening that day, as many reed flags for danger, why didn't he just do his damn job?
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240 I have to think you don't believe all this stuff. You're just trying to play devil's advocate, no? What law did he break and who was harmed by this "criminal negligence"?
I know that if the head of the secret service was put on the stand and forced to answer just why he broke protocol that day, the American people might get some insight as to what they knew, and when.
I just ask questions because it doesn't make sense. A new investigation is owed to the family's victims, if nothing else. If anyone knew ahead of time, and let 3000 people die, don't you think they should be brought to justice?
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State figures are often emotionless when very bad things happen.
It's called being stoic. Some people think it is a good. Obviously some of you guys don't.
President Bush was safe he was in Florida and in no immediate danger. If the secret service was indeed worried at all about his safety he would have been removed from the situation.
Obviously the secret service was right because the President is still alive.
You are putting supposition before the facts.
The fact is the president was safe. If the secret service feared for his safety he would have been moved.
The president doesn't discuss his security with them. The secret service dictates the security plan to the president.
If the secret service needed time to come up with an appropriate safety exit. They would decide it amongst themselves and then tell the president. With this fact in mind they would also tell the President to carry on with his business until after he was well informed of the facts.
His reaction was not out of the ordinary. Most world leaders during times of strife try to look as calm and cool as they can. Looking stoic is much better than looking panicked.
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http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2005/090405gotwarning.htm
"We were told that the World Trade Center was going to collapse in 10 or 15 minutes"
- Rudy Guillani to Peter Jennings on the South tower, the first one to fall.
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I don't know secret service protocol, but I would imagine it requires them to ensure the president's safety with broad discretion to determine how that is done. I doubt they have to do anything immediately if the don't think the president is in imminent danger.
The look on his face? Are you saying the look on his face suggests or confirms a criminal conspiracy? Where is the blueprint for a facial expression when the most powerful man in the world is just told about an act, not yet confirmed as terrorism, has just taken place, and he's reading to a bunch of school kids? It should have been shock, surprise, anger, poker face? I say poker face, particularly when there is a camera in your face in front of a bunch of kids.
What it suggests is fore hand knowledge.
He was told a jet crashed into the WTC. He didn't even flinch. He's not a poker player and he wasn't playing poker at that moment. He was reading to kids on camera and was informed of an outragous tragedy by people he knew would tell him nothing but the truth. and he didn't even flinch.
It in no way confirms anything but it does certainly suggest.
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I could care less about what his face read.
I find it weird that anyone could assume "President Bush was safe he was in Florida and in no immediate danger."
If a group had the incredible skill to take planes into skyscrapers, there is no assuming they couldn't have some other operation planned in FL or anywhere else in the nation. It is the job of the Secret Service to error on the side of caution - they didn't need an "escape plan". They get the fuck to the cars and get out of there. Period. They don't sit in the crosshairs and say "well, until we get word that we're a target, let's just chill here". No. They make the Presiden't location unknown when attacks are underway.
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Presidents and Heads of States in general won't react to good or bad news. It isn't a flaw.
It is better that they don't react quickly to the news becuase if he was as emotional as say a Bill Cower then there would have been more panic.
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I could care less about what his face read.
I find it weird that anyone could assume "President Bush was safe he was in Florida and in no immediate danger."
If a group had the incredible skill to take planes into skyscrapers, there is no assuming they couldn't have some other operation planned in FL or anywhere else in the nation. It is the job of the Secret Service to error on the side of caution - they didn't need an "escape plan". They get the f**k to the cars and get out of there. Period. They don't sit in the crosshairs and say "well, until we get word that we're a target, let's just chill here". No. They make the Presiden't location unknown when attacks are underway.
Well for what it is worth if i was in charge of the SS detail that day i wouldn't assume he was safe.
Tyrhonny might assume it bacuase he feels it would further his Evolution debate.
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Presidents and Heads of States in general won't react to good or bad news. It isn't a flaw.
It is better that they don't react quickly to the news becuase if he was as emotional as say a Bill Cower then there would have been more panic.
there wasn't even a questioning "frown" I'm not suggesting he should have yellED OMFG! WHAT DID YOU SAY HAPPENED!
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I could care less about what his face read.
I find it weird that anyone could assume "President Bush was safe he was in Florida and in no immediate danger."
If a group had the incredible skill to take planes into skyscrapers, there is no assuming they couldn't have some other operation planned in FL or anywhere else in the nation. It is the job of the Secret Service to error on the side of caution - they didn't need an "escape plan". They get the f**k to the cars and get out of there. Period. They don't sit in the crosshairs and say "well, until we get word that we're a target, let's just chill here". No. They make the Presiden't location unknown when attacks are underway.
No, that is what you would do.
I am sure that the secret service new very well that he was safe. You have to rember ever since JFK the secret service doesn't mess around with president. I am sure that the Sarasota air space was already locked down. Also the secret service woldn't have allowed cars any where near the school. Also everyone in the school would have had a background check done.
They new what they had in Sarasota. They were very unsure of what was going to happen in Washington DC.
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No, that is what you would do.
I am sure that the secret service new very well that he was safe. You have to rember ever since JFK the secret service doesn't mess around with president. I am sure that the Sarasota air space was already locked down. Also the secret service woldn't have allowed cars any where near the school. Also everyone in the school would have had a background check done.
They new what they had in Sarasota. They were very unsure of what was going to happen in Washington
I used to live in Sarasota and I am a former teacher. I saw the video clip of the pres's motorcade arriving, there were something like 5 cars visible.
HOW would they knew he was safe? There is an airport 3 miles away from that elem school. Unless they had a blackhawk floating over that school, or a missile battery in the lawn, they were not safe from aerial attack. And for god's sake, man. With as many ppl were involved in 911, what would have stopped 50 men with rifles from pulling up and starting something? Or a truck bomb? Or anything????
If a group can take out two skyscrapers and 4 planes, they can get to one man in a public place. period. There are homes right across the street from that school, and the terrorist pilots trained right up the interstate 20 minutes away. Any prick or group of pricks could have sat a block away and fired RPGs into the school campus at the same time the planes hit, if they had chosen to.
Dude, if they knew he was safe, it is because they knew the targets that day ahead of time. the ONLY other way to ensure his safety was to get him out of there, onto a plane, and get fighter jet escorts. Or, whatever hidden bunker.
Come on man, something stinks about that morning. They all just sat there. They should have been scrambling for a safe place.
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By your logic if that school wasn't safe. Then the motorcade wouldn't have been safe it could easily be attacked by land mines RPG's and armed asslients. Fly in Air Force wouldn't have been safe it could have been taken out with shoulder fired missles etc.
Since by extending your logic nothing is safe, then sitting there, reading a childrens book and waiting for fate to happen would make quite a bit of sense. Sh*t happens could be his new motto.
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By your logic if that school wasn't safe. Then the motorcade wouldn't have been safe it could easily be attacked by land mines RPG's and armed asslients. Fly in Air Force wouldn't have been safe it could have been taken out with shoulder fired missles etc.
Since by extending your logic nothing is safe, then sitting there, reading a childrens book and waiting for fate to happen would make quite a bit of sense. Sh*t happens could be his new motto.
Any person in charge of the safety of the most important man on the planet, once he realizes that the nation was under attack by a very organized and capable group, would remove the person from a known location. It's as simple as that.
Are you going to argue that?
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If the secret service thought he was safe or that was the safest place for him then that is what they would do.
The president has no control over the secret service when it comes to his safety.
You don't agree with the secret service, that is fine, but it was not the president's decision whether to stay or leave.
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If the secret service thought he was safe or that was the safest place for him then that is what they would do.
The president has no control over the secret service when it comes to his safety.
You don't agree with the secret service, that is fine, but it was not the president's decision whether to stay or leave.
...which is why many have called for the head of the secret service to answer under oath exactly why he did not follow protocol that day. It lends credence to teh belief that he knew about the attacks beforehand.
And maybe someone TOLD HIM to sit tight. Who? let's get the cards out on the table. If there's nothing to hide, let's clear up this confusion, so the country can be united once again. Given that 36% recent poll, it is very clear our nation is divided. So let's get the facts out, so that we can all be on the same page as a nation.
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I agree there is still quit a bit of confusion, however how the secret service operates is a state secret that I don't think the president of the secret service want to give out. Not for the safet of their jobs but for the safety of the nation.
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Just so you know 240...
EVEn if someone from the democratic party uncovers the conspiracy you suggest or the one i do they won't do anything about it becuase it would be too far damaging to the country.
Sad to say.
I personally, if it did actually happen as you say, would want it to beuncoverd becuase it would cause REAL change in this country. something that rarely happens.
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I agree there is still quit a bit of confusion, however how the secret service operates is a state secret that I don't think the president of the secret service want to give out. Not for the safet of their jobs but for the safety of the nation.
They don't have to ask him for any secrets. They can ask him why he didnt' follow protocol- which is on public record- that you remove public officials from known locations when there is any increased chance of danger.
A group flying planes into buildings increases danger. not only from falling objects, but from other attacks choreographed to occur at the same time.
Just ask him if he felt the Prez was more safe in a public place that day, than if he had been in an undisclosed location. Ask him what updates he had at 9:02. If all he knew was what he got from cnn- and they admitted they saw the second plane crash on tv then told bush - then they had NO CLUE what other dangers were out there.
Just ask him why they didn't follow protocol. Many seen it as proof they knew they were safe - which only comes from knowing the full extent of the attacks- which, at 9:02, could only have been known with foreknowledge (as the last plane didnt't crash for another 70 minutes)
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EVEn if someone from the democratic party uncovers the conspiracy you suggest or the one i do they won't do anything about it becuase it would be too far damaging to the country.
Sad to say.
I personally, if it did actually happen as you say, would want it to beuncoverd becuase it would cause REAL change in this country. something that rarely happens.
What will heppen when it does come out mainstream?
A small group will take the blame. A recently deceased Silverstein and some out-of-country group. Presidential pardons. Everyone walks.
And I don't even care about that. Justic would be nice, but I'll let the good Lord sort that out. I just want our country to be aware of what happened, so that it will not happen again. If every news anchor in the country was speaking about the self-attack, then no rogue group would attempt another- and then Americans wouldn't die.
There are many, many people who know but haven't come public. They're scared. Read about the ones that do come public. They get lawsuits, audits, and many other mean stuff sudeenly, to fill their time and encourage them to back off. Or, in the case of hunter S Thompson, moviemaker and author who announced he was going to expose it to the world, they are suicided.
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God help us all, there can't possibly be two jaguars :'(!!
lol...I am Sandra.
But thanks for the compliment.
Sandra
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i could be completely wrong about this but I would think "protocol" would dictate they do something immediatly to protect him with this happens.
But it wasn't so much that.... It was the look on his face that suggested a great many things.
I agree with this. I don't think Bush is savvy enough to be trusted to know about the alleged conspiracy.
I think he was more like a deer in the headlights....just frozen.
As for being brave that day....In that moment, he looked anything but brave. Looked like he wanted his mommy.
Sandra
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I know that if the head of the secret service was put on the stand and forced to answer just why he broke protocol that day, the American people might get some insight as to what they knew, and when.
I just ask questions because it doesn't make sense. A new investigation is owed to the family's victims, if nothing else. If anyone knew ahead of time, and let 3000 people die, don't you think they should be brought to justice?
Apples and Oranges.
Compared to when Regan got shot. SS shoved his ass in the limo, bodies left on the sidewalk and the shooter still out there for others to take care of.
Bush....A national attack and everyone mulls about as he reads.
You would think with that experience of Regan being shot, the secret service would've been more forceful and getting the President to safety.
Just a thought.
Sandra
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Or, in the case of hunter S Thompson, moviemaker and author who announced he was going to expose it to the world, they are suicided.
Hold your fcuking horses mang!!!
Are you suggesting that my hero, Hunter S, was murdered? :o
What have you heard about this?
YIP
Zack
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Are you suggesting that my hero, Hunter S, was murdered? :o
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives/hunter_s_thompson/index.html
Hunter Thompson was working on WTC collapse story before mysterious sudden death, warned he'd be 'suicided'
Total 9/11 Info/Prison Planet | March 2 2005
Toronto Globe and Mail February 26, 2005:
Hunter telephoned me on Feb. 19, the night before his death. He sounded scared. It wasn't always easy to understand what he said, particularly over the phone, he mumbled, yet when there was something he really wanted you to understand, you did. He'd been working on a story about the World Trade Center attacks and had stumbled across what he felt was hard evidence showing the towers had been brought down not by the airplanes that flew into them but by explosive charges set off in their foundations. Now he thought someone was out to stop him publishing it: "They're gonna make it look like suicide," he said. "I know how these bastards think . . ."
Hunter S. Thompson ... was indeed working on such a story.
Now check out this February 25 Associated Press story about Thompson's death. Sounds a lot like a professional hit with a silencer:
"I was on the phone with him, he set the receiver down and he did it. I heard the clicking of the gun," Anita Thompson told the Aspen Daily News in Friday's editions.
She said her husband had asked her to come home from a health club so they could work on his weekly ESPN column...
Thompson said she heard a loud, muffled noise, but didn't know what had happened. "I was waiting for him to get back on the phone," she said.
(Her account to Rocky Mountain News reporter Jeff Kass is slightly different: "I did not hear any bang," she told Kass. She added that Thompson's son, who was in the house at the time, believed that a book had fallen when he heard the shot, according to Kass' report.)
Mack White sums up the questions well:
Thompson's family says he was not depressed, nor was he in enough to pain to kill himself. In fact, by all reports, he was quite happy. He was talking on the phone to his wife, getting ready to work on his column, when he decided it would be wise to kill himself, so that he could go out (we are told) while "still at the top of his form," even though this would mean not finishing his column or his expose on 9/11 (potentially the most important thing he would ever write) (?)...
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CALLER "Scott from Texas": I was just wondering if you guys might be able to clear up something I heard through the journalist Sherman Skolnick. He is reporting that another story or book, I don't remember exactly which, that Hunter S. Thompson was working on was about this gay prostitution ring in the White House and supposedly that was another touchy topic that he brought out, and the whole...
JONES: Had you heard that from Hunter?
PAUL WILLAM ROBERTS: Yeah, I had heard that quite a lot from Hunter. It goes back to Kissinger, I believe.
JONES: Wow.
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/march2005/080305callboystory.htm
http://letsroll911.org/phpwebsite/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=45