Holy Moses! PBS documentary suggests Exodus not real...

[Deicide]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/tv/orl-exodus2108jul21,0,7755323.story

The Bible's Buried Secrets, a new PBS documentary, is likely to cause a furor.

"It challenges the Bible's stories if you want to read them literally, and that will disturb many people," says archaeologist William Dever, who specializes in Israel's history. "But it explains how and why these stories ever came to be told in the first place, and how and why they were written down."

Let the Faith Heads Tremble...!

[MCWAY]

Tremble about what? The "Exodus was written late during the Babylonian exile" tripe again?

Old mess in a “new” PBS package........YAAAAAAAA WN!!!!!

[Deicide]

Tremble about what? The "Exodus was written late during the Babylonian exile" tripe again?

Old mess in a “new” PBS package........YAAAAAAAA WN!!!!!

Most major Biblical scholars accept that Exodus was written during the Babylonian captivity. I still find it amazing you go into a place like GNC, take full advantage of modern science, nutrition and supplementation and believe in Bronze Age fairy tales. I just can't wrap my head around it.

[Hugo Chavez]

Most major Biblical scholars accept that Exodus was written during the Babylonian captivity. I still find it amazing you go into a place like GNC, take full advantage of modern science, nutrition and supplementation and believe in Bronze Age fairy tales. I just can't wrap my head around it.

there is something even in fairy tales. there are clues to truths enclosed.  That much is true and shouldn't be dismissed.  Does it mean what Christians think?  oh hell no...

[MCWAY]

Most major Biblical scholars accept that Exodus was written during the Babylonian captivity. I still find it amazing you go into a place like GNC, take full advantage of modern science, nutrition and supplementation and believe in Bronze Age fairy tales. I just can't wrap my head around it.

Define "major", as I can give you plenty of Biblical scholars, who state that Exodus was written far earlier, by Moses.

Of course, there's the little matter of a certain 1st-century Jewish historian (Josephus), who cites Moses as the author of the book of Exodus.

As for your GNC comment, the reason you can't wrap your head around it, is because your head is loaded with the foolish and woefully inaccurate BELIEF that scientific advancement (and reaping the benefits, thereof) require a rejection of one's Christian beliefs.

Of course, you keep forgetting that the process, which makes the whey protein and chicken breasts that you consume, safe to eat came from a man, who not only believed in God, but who also completely dismantled a godless tenet as to how life developed.

If you enjoy mass-production of literary works in the Western world, you can thank the man who developed the movable-type printing press, making the Bible among the very first mass-produced works, so that people could read Scripture for themselves.

Loco has done this more times than I care to count; but, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to refresh your memory about the Christian men, who contributed to the fields of medicine, curing some of the deadliest diseases on the planet. That doesn't take into consideration that many hospitals and humanitarian centers were founded (and still run today) by Christian men and women.

Science is simply the study of nature....God's nature. The more discoveries (finding what was already there) I see, the more I'm convinced that this planet, even in its sin-altered state, has Divine origin.

If anything, YOU shouldn't be taking advantage of modern supplementation. If you don't believe in God, don't eat His chicken or cows. Don't consume the milk (or product made from such) from His cattle. Leave His wheat and barley, fruits and veggies, alone. 

[Deicide]

Define "major", as I can give you plenty of Biblical scholars, who state that Exodus was written far earlier, by Moses.

Of course, there's the little matter of a certain 1st-century Jewish historian (Josephus), who cites Moses as the author of the book of Exodus.

As for your GNC comment, the reason you can't wrap your head around it, is because your head is loaded with the foolish and woefully inaccurate BELIEF that scientific advancement (and reaping the benefits, thereof) require a rejection of one's Christian beliefs.

Of course, you keep forgetting that the process, which makes the whey protein and chicken breasts that you consume, safe to eat came from a man, who not only believed in God, but who also completely dismantled a godless tenet as to how life developed.

If you enjoy mass-production of literary works in the Western world, you can thank the man who developed the movable-type printing press, making the Bible among the very first mass-produced works, so that people could read Scripture for themselves.

Loco has done this more times than I care to count; but, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to refresh your memory about the Christian men, who contributed to the fields of medicine, curing some of the deadliest diseases on the planet. That doesn't take into consideration that many hospitals and humanitarian centers were founded (and still run today) by Christian men and women.

Science is simply the study of nature....God's nature. The more discoveries (finding what was already there) I see, the more I'm convinced that this planet, even in its sin-altered state, has Divine origin.

If anything, YOU shouldn't be taking advantage of modern supplementation. If you don't believe in God, don't eat His chicken or cows. Don't consume the milk (or product made from such) from His cattle. Leave His wheat and barley, fruits and veggies, alone. 

Theses scientists could have been Buddhists, Hindus or Greek Polytheists; it doesn't make the Christian religious beliefs in the slightest true. They were doing good science and ignoring their religion.

[Deicide]

there is something even in fairy tales. there are clues to truths enclosed.  That much is true and shouldn't be dismissed.  Does it mean what Christians think?  oh hell no...

Every Biblical scholar worth his salt DOES NOT believe that Exodus happened; there is no trace of 600,000 goatherders wandering a desert for 40 years.

[Lord Humungous]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/tv/orl-exodus2108jul21,0,7755323.story

Let the Faith Heads Tremble...!

Well, if PBS said its not true and a dork like you believes it, it must be true.


Shit my faith has been shattered, oh well at least I can crawl back in bed no church for me!

[Deicide]

Well, if PBS said its not true and a dork like you believes it, it must be true.


Shit my faith has been shattered, oh well at least I can crawl back in bed no church for me!

Fundy nutter...

[OzmO]

Is there any thing/evidence outside of the Bible to support exodus?

[MCWAY]

Is there any thing/evidence outside of the Bible to support exodus?

I mentioned it earlier that there are the works of Josephus, that mentioned the Exodus, as well as identifying Moses as the author of the book with the same title.

For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, as the Greeks have, but only twenty-four books, which contain the records of all things past; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. - Josephus, "Against Apion, 1.8"

Those 5 books are known as the Pentateuch: Genesis, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Numbers, and (of course) Exodus.

Regarding the Exodus, itself......

It now remains that I debate with Manetho about Moses. Now the Egyptians acknowledge him to have been a wonderful and a divine person; nay, they would willingly lay claim to him themselves, though after a most abusive and incredible manner, and pretend that he was of Heliopolis, and one of the priests of that place, and was ejected out of it among the rest, on account of his leprosy; although it had been demonstrated out of their records that he lived five hundred and eighteen years earlier, and then brought our forefathers out of Egypt into the country that is now inhabited by us. - Josephus, "Against Apion 1.31"

Here are some more interesting items, regarding the Exodus:

http://bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm

Theses scientists could have been Buddhists, Hindus or Greek Polytheists; it doesn't make the Christian religious beliefs in the slightest true. They were doing good science and ignoring their religion.

Who said they were ignoring their religion? They sure didn't. And, once again, your premise that practicing and enjoying the benefits of scientific discovery requires a rejection of faith is utterly ridiculous.

[OzmO]

I mentioned it earlier that there are the works of Josephus, that mentioned the Exodus, as well as identifying Moses as the author of the book with the same title.

For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, as the Greeks have, but only twenty-four books, which contain the records of all things past; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. - Josephus, "Against Apion, 1.8"

Those 5 books are known as the Pentateuch: Genesis, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Numbers, and (of course) Exodus.

Regarding the Exodus, itself......

It now remains that I debate with Manetho about Moses. Now the Egyptians acknowledge him to have been a wonderful and a divine person; nay, they would willingly lay claim to him themselves, though after a most abusive and incredible manner, and pretend that he was of Heliopolis, and one of the priests of that place, and was ejected out of it among the rest, on account of his leprosy; although it had been demonstrated out of their records that he lived five hundred and eighteen years earlier, and then brought our forefathers out of Egypt into the country that is now inhabited by us. - Josephus, "Against Apion 1.31"

Here are some more interesting items, regarding the Exodus:

That's all kind of second hand.  Think about it.....Josephus wrote that based on his belief not his first hand experience.  That sititution kind of nullifies his testimony, becuase he was writing on a belief about something that is in the OT.   Outside of the bible what is there that is more direct evidence?

For example, they have found letters or proclamations in cities that were conquer by Alexander.

We have 600,000 people leaving egypt and no record anywhere save this bible story.

[Deicide]

That's all kind of second hand.  Think about it.....Josephus wrote that based on his belief not his first hand experience.  That sititution kind of nullifies his testimony, becuase he was writing on a belief about something that is in the OT.   Outside of the bible what is there that is more direct evidence?

For example, they have found letters or proclamations in cities that were conquer by Alexander.

We have 600,000 people leaving egypt and no record anywhere save this bible story.

That's right Ozmo; 200 years of excavations and exploration and not a shred of evidence for the alleged Exodus...that's why they call it faith my friend.

[MCWAY]

That's all kind of second hand.  Think about it.....Josephus wrote that based on his belief not his first hand experience.  That sititution kind of nullifies his testimony, becuase he was writing on a belief about something that is in the OT.   Outside of the bible what is there that is more direct evidence?

Indeed it is secondhand, as are a lot of historical documents. But, Josephus' writings indicate that he had access to documents from historical sources that have since been lost or destroyed. For example, Josephus cites the work of Manetho, an Egyptian scholar who was WAAAAAY before Josephus' time (3rd century B.C.). He also makes reference to "their records" (those of the Egyptians), to support his statements regarding Moses, the man who led the Israelites in the Exodus.

What those records are I don't quite know at the moment. But, one thing is certain: Josephus is NOT (as you claim) relying solely in his belief about something in the Old Testament.

For example, they have found letters or proclamations in cities that were conquer by Alexander.

But, the lion's share of data, regarding Alexander come from "secondhand sources", namely the Anabasis of Alexander, by Arrian, written centuries after Alex's death.

We have 600,000 people leaving egypt and no record anywhere save this bible story.

Not quite! Again, we have Josephus' writings, which can't be discounted (secondhand or not). And there are more on the site I linked.

That's right Ozmo; 200 years of excavations and exploration and not a shred of evidence for the alleged Exodus...that's why they call it faith my friend.

Notwithstanding the absurdity of your implication that 200 years would be exhaustive enough to find scores of artifacts, supporting the Exodus (or the fact that Josephus' writings would be one of those "shreds of evidence" you claim hasn't been found), I must remind you of the numerous times that skeptics like you claimed that a person/place/event (documented solely in the Bible) was fictitious, only to be embarrassed, when the unearthed evidence showed the Bible to be correct.


Furthermore, as far as the Exodus goes, why is Josephus (1st century A.D.) having a “debate” with Manetho (3rd century B.C.) about Moses?

It's because he has access to Egyptian documents that cite the existence of Moses, the man who is best-known for DELIVERING THE HEBREWS FROM EGYPT (aka the Exodus).

[OzmO]

McWay,

In the end we have a someone writing about something that happened many hundreds of years before with out any real investagative techniques outside of passing down scrolls.   

that's hearsay.   

You can stack up writing after writing, but are they writings of the time of the event?

with Alexander, the example i gave is direct and current of the time of the events.

[MCWAY]

McWay,

In the end we have a someone writing about something that happened many hundreds of years before with out any real investagative techniques outside of passing down scrolls.   

that's hearsay. 

By that standard, you'd better cease your viewing of news telecasts and publications, because unless the reporter/writer witnessed the events himself, the information you're getting from him is secondhand, or as you call it, "hearsay".

Your earlier claim was that Josephus was merely relying on his belief, when he penned the quote I referenced. That is not the case. He is using source documents, from the Egyptians (as well as from the Hebrews) to make his statements, regarding Moses and the Exodus.

Those documents have not been found (as of yet). That simply means that they are either still lost or they've been destroyed. It doesn't mean that such were non-existent or fabricated.

You can stack up writing after writing, but are they writings of the time of the event?

with Alexander, the example i gave is direct and current of the time of the events.

That simply means that such regarding Alexander has been found, not unusual, considering the scope of Alex's empire. However, as stated earlier, the lion's share of information on Alexandar comes from seconhand sources. That does NOT make the information false. All that means is that Arrian had access to documents, most of which have yet to be found.

The same would apply to Josephus, as it relates to his access to Egyptian documents, that reference Moses and the Exodus.

My point was/is that, contrary to Deicide's claim, there is evidence to support the Exodus. It may not be as extensive at that, regarding the events done by Alexander the Great. But the evidence exists, nonetheless.

[OzmO]

By that standard, you'd better cease your viewing of news telecasts and publications, because unless the reporter/writer witnessed the events himself, the information you're getting from him is secondhand, or as you call it, "hearsay".

Your earlier claim was that Josephus was merely relying on his belief, when he penned the quote I referenced. That is not the case. He is using source documents, from the Egyptians (as well as from the Hebrews) to make his statements, regarding Moses and the Exodus.

Those documents have not been found (as of yet). That simply means that they are either still lost or they've been destroyed. It doesn't mean that such were non-existent or fabricated.

That make his conclusions even less credible.   He's relying on documents based on hearsay that no longer exist.

Further more, modern news is based on current events, hearsay from events that occurred hundreds or thousands of years ago.

That simply means that such regarding Alexander has been found, not unusual, considering the scope of Alex's empire. However, as stated earlier, the lion's share of information on Alexandar comes from seconhand sources. That does NOT make the information false. All that means is that Arrian had access to documents, most of which have yet to be found.

The same would apply to Josephus, as it relates to his access to Egyptian documents, that reference Moses and the Exodus.

My point was/is that, contrary to Deicide's claim, there is evidence to support the Exodus. It may not be as extensive at that, regarding the events done by Alexander the Great. But the evidence exists, nonetheless.

The thing is, Alexanders issue is supported by direct evidence AND second hand where as Exodus doesn't have any direct evidence.  which is what I'm asking about.

Just so you know, I'm not saying either way, true or not true.  My point is, that Exodus is based on faith only.  Not on any real evidence.

Some would ridicule belief based on faith.  I see nothing to ridicule unless the person doesn't take the positive lessons learned from the story and allow them to enrich and guide their lives.

In the end what does it really matter what actually did or didn't happen?   The past only truly benefits us, when we learn from it. 

[MCWAY]

That make his conclusions even less credible.   He's relying on documents based on hearsay that no longer exist.

That's not necessarily true. Those documents may still exist but be lost. My point was that Josephus was not simply relying on belief, as you claimed earlier.

Further more, modern news is based on current events, hearsay from events that occurred hundreds or thousands of years ago.

That doesn't matter. If the guy reporting the news didn't witness it himself, he is giving secondhand information.

The thing is, Alexanders issue is supported by direct evidence AND second hand where as Exodus doesn't have any direct evidence.  which is what I'm asking about.

The Exodus occured several centuries before Alexander was even born. So, finding evidence for that (on the surface, at least) would be more of a challenge. With that said, I've looked at some of the items at the link I posted. Some of this are things I'd never seen before a couple of days ago.

Just so you know, I'm not saying either way, true or not true.  My point is, that Exodus is based on faith only.  Not on any real evidence.

That's where I disagree. You asked if there were any evidence outside the Bible, supporting the Exodus. I pointed out the works of Josephus and the items linked at the Bible probe site.

Initially, you did not ask for "direct" evidence. As stated earlier, Josephus is referencing other source materials, outside the Tanakh (or what Christians call the Old Testament). If he were basing his statements about Moses and the Exodus "on faith only", there would be no need to mention Manetho's works or those of any other Egytian scribe or historian.

Some would ridicule belief based on faith.  I see nothing to ridicule unless the person doesn't take the positive lessons learned from the story and allow them to enrich and guide their lives.

In the end what does it really matter what actually did or didn't happen?   The past only truly benefits us, when we learn from it. 

It matters, because (from a religious perspective), people believe in what God can do, based on what He has done. Why do you think folks like Deicide go into near-orgasmic bliss, when they post stuff like this PBS special? They think that, by undercutting the events, mentioned in the Bible, they can persuade people to reject their faith and adopt their godless mentality.

Of course, when archaeological discovery shows Scripture to be accurate, you'll see more dancing than an MC Hammer music video from the early 90s.

[OzmO]

That doesn't matter. If the guy reporting the news didn't witness it himself, he is giving secondhand information.

True, but again the difference is whether or not it happen currently or hundreds or thousands of years.  Which is a big difference.  becuase that information cannot be readily tested or verified.

In the case of the reporter it can and usually is.

That's where I disagree. You asked if there were any evidence outside the Bible, supporting the Exodus. I pointed out the works of Josephus and the items linked at the Bible probe site.

That's not evidence and can't really even be categorized as a credible account for the reasons i mentioned above.

We are talking about a 600,000 mass exodus that can not be verified in any archaeological record save the writings of the bible and the writings or Josephous who based his writings on the same like, which can not be verified

Basically, Exodus is based on rumor.

Of course, when archaeological discovery shows Scripture to be accurate, you'll see more dancing than an MC Hammer music video from the early 90s.

It's hard for archaeological evidence to prove anything, however it would support it.  That would be great.  But there isn't any archaeological evidence to support exodus. 

It's interesting that people of religious faith that's based on the Bible often try to factualize things as proof.   It's matter of faith.  What's wrong with admitting that?  I do.

[MCWAY]

True, but again the difference is whether or not it happen currently or hundreds or thousands of years.  Which is a big difference.  becuase that information cannot be readily tested or verified.

In the case of the reporter it can and usually is.

That's not evidence and can't really even be categorized as a credible account for the reasons i mentioned above.


We are talking about a 600,000 mass exodus that can not be verified in any archaeological record save the writings of the bible and the writings or Josephous who based his writings on the same like, which can not be verified

Basically, Exodus is based on rumor.

This isn't just something that Josephus heard through the grapevine. He had documented sources, which he referenced, which were extra-biblical.

Exactly, how many records of the Exodus, should there be? It sounds as if you have some sort of cap as to how many different records of the Exodus should have been done. I say that there should be at least two: One from the Hebrews (which we have) and the other from the Egyptians (indirectly referenced by Josephus).

It's hard for archaeological evidence to prove anything, however it would support it.  That would be great.  But there isn't any archaeological evidence to support exodus. 

Actually, there is. In addition to Josephus' writings, there are the items, mentioned in the site I linked.

It's interesting that people of religious faith that's based on the Bible often try to factualize things as proof.   It's matter of faith.  What's wrong with admitting that?  I do.

Nothing. In fact, I've stated that Christians have faith in God can do, based on what He has done. It's also interesting that when Christians believe an account from the Bible that has yet to be verified historically, they're accused of going on "blind faith". Yet, when they point out the aspects of the Bible that have been repeated verified by historical and archaeological discovery, they then get accused of not having enough faith.

I've learned that just because something is cited almost exclusively in the Bible, that doesn't mean that such is false or based on rumor.

[OzmO]

Nothing. In fact, I've stated that Christians have faith in God can do, based on what He has done. It's also interesting that when Christians believe an account from the Bible that has yet to be verified historically, they're accused of going on "blind faith". Yet, when they point out the aspects of the Bible that have been repeated verified by historical and archaeological discovery, they then get accused of not having enough faith.

I've learned that just because something is cited almost exclusively in the Bible, that doesn't mean that such is false or based on rumor.

Discovering sites, cities where events allegedly took place does not verify the truth of said events.

This isn't just something that Josephus heard through the grapevine. He had documented sources, which he referenced, which were extra-biblical.

Exactly, how many records of the Exodus, should there be? It sounds as if you have some sort of cap as to how many different records of the Exodus should have been done. I say that there should be at least two: One from the Hebrews (which we have) and the other from the Egyptians (indirectly referenced by Josephus).

What documented sources did he supposedly have?

Also, there should be some record of it, maybe yet to be discovered, in Egyptian history.

Because basically what you have, outside the links i haven't read yet that you posted, is hearsay and the bible.

Not good evidence.

[MCWAY]

Discovering sites, cities where events allegedly took place does not verify the truth of said events.

Didn't you just say, not too long ago that, "It's hard for archaeological evidence to prove anything, however it would support it."?

The cite I linked makes references to inscriptions, artifacts, and the writings of Josephus, which support the Exodus.

What documented sources did he supposedly have?

Also, there should be some record of it, maybe yet to be discovered, in Egyptian history.

That was my point about Josephus, Ozmo. He is citing Egyptian records, with regards to the information about Moses and the Exodus. But, as you've said, some of those records have yet to be discovered.

Because basically what you have, outside the links i haven't read yet that you posted, is hearsay and the bible.

Not good evidence.

When you get the time, please check out the link. I found it quite informative, as there was stuff there that I'd never seen beforehand. Whether you find the evidence there to be "good" or not is your call (as is the case with the Josephian references).

But, my point stands: There is evidence that supports the Exodus.

[OzmO]

Didn't you just say, not too long ago that, "It's hard for archaeological evidence to prove anything, however it would support it."?

The cite I linked makes references to inscriptions, artifacts, and the writings of Josephus, which support the Exodus.

That was my point about Josephus, Ozmo. He is citing Egyptian records, with regards to the information about Moses and the Exodus. But, as you've said, some of those records have yet to be discovered.

When you get the time, please check out the link. I found it quite informative, as there was stuff there that I'd never seen beforehand. Whether you find the evidence there to be "good" or not is your call (as is the case with the Josephian references).

But, my point stands: There is evidence that supports the Exodus.

It's evidence, but not evidence that proves anything or even strong evidence.  So your point certainly does stand, but by definition only.

And too boot, the evidence Josephus was citing, wasn't verifiable or  conclusively examined at the time which makes it suspect.

However, when or if, Egyptian Records get discovered that directly verify the events of exodus, then the story will be far more supported then now.

I read through the site and it was fascinating in parts but overly speculative in other parts.  For example, the chariots, they should find hundreds of them down there if not thousands.

that's the hard part about archeology.  Even if they did find, hundreds of chariots and evidence of a drowned army, and found record of 600K leaving Egypt......it still doesn't 100% verify the story told in the Bible.  It only supports that the events happened and not necessarily the way Exodus has told it.

What does that mean?

It means it boils right back down to faith.

And there nothing wrong with faith.

faith is enough.

[MCWAY]

It's evidence, but not evidence that proves anything or even strong evidence.  So your point certainly does stand, but by definition only.

And too boot, the evidence Josephus was citing, wasn't verifiable or  conclusively examined at the time which makes it suspect.

However, when or if, Egyptian Records get discovered that directly verify the events of exodus, then the story will be far more supported then now.

I read through the site and it was fascinating in parts but overly speculative in other parts.  For example, the chariots, they should find hundreds of them down there if not thousands.

that's the hard part about archeology.  Even if they did find, hundreds of chariots and evidence of a drowned army, and found record of 600K leaving Egypt......it still doesn't 100% verify the story told in the Bible.  It only supports that the events happened and not necessarily the way Exodus has told it.

What does that mean?

It means it boils right back down to faith.

And there nothing wrong with faith.

faith is enough.

Nothing wrong with faith, indeed. But, there's a difference between the "blind faith", that Christians are often accused of having (especially when it comes to things documented primarily in Scripture), and faith with evidence to support such.

Remember that my main disagreement with you was on your take that Josephus was simply relying on his faith in the Old Testament.

As for the rest, you may require to see more evidence than I do to believe that the Exodus occured, as written in the Old Testament. But, the evidence is indeed there.

There are those who have minimalized or marginalized the issue. Since they can no longer deny that the Israelites were in Egypt, they make the claim that the numbers weren't as large as the books of Exodus and Numbers state. They figured that just a (relative) few thousand left Egypt, instead of the estimated 2 million* that many traditional scholars cite.

*: That estimate comes from the reported 603,550 men (males at least 20 years old), factoring in women, children, and the Levites, whom God instructed Moses not to count as part of the census.