I’ll expound a bit for clarity. You stated “believe or burn”. I noted that demons already believe in God. Some evil men and women that openly reject God also believe in him. Yet despite their belief they’ll still spend an eternity in hell separated from God.
Why?
Ok, for the purposes of clarity let me ask some questions about your position. You’re arguing that God operates without a standard of morality? That God has no ability to discern between right and wrong?
You also say that there is no choice…that free will is a lie. How do you account for your opinion?
Now given that the “lie of free will” is a “plain and simple” notion, I assume you can easily expand upon that idea (beyond the blanket statement) given how fundamentally simplistic it is, correct?
How do you know the flames of hell are literal? Hell is described as punishment, eternal separation, outer darkness, wailing and gnashing, a furnace, fire, burning, the grave, like Gehenna, etc….
Above you said you have no choice….no free will. Although now you’re granting that proposition? Which is it?
What you’re doing is replacing “free will” with a notion of “complete autonomy” in the finite and infinite. And you’re doing so within the Christian worldview. Given you’re engaging and entering that worldview you’re bound by its tenets.
You’re a finite being and within your finite existence you’ve been mercifully granted the ability to act however you please. This life is yours to live. Despite that, your choices will still either occur in accordance with God or in opposition to him. The timelines for the two wills are identical, but the relationship between them can be an inverse because you are not coerced into any decision. This discussion alone attests to that very thing. You are not a puppet; in fact, you are the puppeteer coercing your own end. Your will functions concurrently with God’s will, but the two can remain diametrically opposed based solely upon you because God’s will is to align with you in fellowship and righteousness…..he forever wants to pull you close to him yet you desire to push him away.
God has revealed his standards, his code of morality, his laws and ultimate justice for his creation and he has every right to do so. His will for you is made plain, but yet you’re free to defy his will. You are not fully autonomous in God’s eternity and in order to be aligned with him you must choose his righteousness and that can only be achieved through him in the person of Jesus Christ.
His glory, mercy, grace, peace, love and justice are there for you…..it’s God’s greatest desire that you willfully come to him, but he allows you to determine your own fate. That “heavy consequence” is determined by you. His will is that you come unto him in humble, faithful surrender. Although, if your will differs he honors that and allows you to remain separate from him and all his divine attributes. Every goodness, every mercy, every act of peace and kindness, every happiness and joy is an extension of his divine nature. He will extract all that he is from your eternity so that you no longer have to endure all that he is, but what is left in your eternity is the hell you’ve chosen. Further, given you’ve willfully broken his laws via your sin you’ll face his judgment and your record will be judged accordingly.
Sounds like you have a loving mother that honors God……you’re a lucky man. I’ve heard so many that came from horrific circumstances. God blessing you yet again.
So Jesus Christ willfully taking on the punishment for our sins is grounded in no moral standards whatsoever? Likewise, I paid someone else’s debt recently in order to help them avoid consequences and that act is also amoral, correct?
No, what you stated is a non sequitur. Further, it's just your opinion.
I don’t doubt it.
I’ll expound a bit for clarity. You stated “believe or burn”. I noted that demons already believe in God. Some evil men and women that openly reject God also believe in him. Yet despite their belief they’ll still spend an eternity in hell separated from God.
Why?
The proposition states believe or burn. If you don't not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord & Savior you're doomed to eternal damnation. I " choose " not to believe in deities so by default I'm going to be punished for it. I'm choosing to decide there is NOT sufficient evidence for any deities and will no follow what I consider to be a false doctrine and live a lie not even for Pascal's wager , just in case there is.
Ok, for the purposes of clarity let me ask some questions about your position. You’re arguing that God operates without a standard of morality? That God has no ability to discern between right and wrong?
I'm saying your God is amoral if he would punish his creations for the faults he designed them with. I'm saying a God who demands to be worshiped or else be punished is an amoral God and NOT worthy or praise or worship. A entity with the abilities to " create " an entire Universe/Multiverse and all life within would be so intelligent and sublime he would in no way shape or form demand to be worshiped or praised it's beneath such intelligence and this proves your God is a story based off of fallible men projecting their frail human egos unto their " God "
You also say that there is no choice…that free will is a lie. How do you account for your opinion?
Easy , as stated the consequence for choosing not to believe. It's like like I said " Hey you want to believe cool , and if not that's cool too. " It's analogous to the Mafia who says " You have a nice store here , shame if anything would happen to it , you pay us and we'll make sure nothing happens to it. " It's do as I say or else. This isn't a choice. God says believe in me or else I will severely punish you. This amoral.
Now given that the “lie of free will” is a “plain and simple” notion, I assume you can easily expand upon that idea (beyond the blanket statement) given how fundamentally simplistic it is, correct?
See above
How do you know the flames of hell are literal? Hell is described as punishment, eternal separation, outer darkness, wailing and gnashing, a furnace, fire, burning, the grave, like Gehenna, etc….
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There is absolutely zero proof of hell or heaven, however this is how religion describes it. " A lake of fire " where you will apparently be given an indestructible so you can feel all of the torment and pain for eternity " But God loves you "
Above you said you have no choice….no free will. Although now you’re granting that proposition? Which is it?
No free will according to the proposition of believe or else.
What you’re doing is replacing “free will” with a notion of “complete autonomy” in the finite and infinite. And you’re doing so within the Christian worldview. Given you’re engaging and entering that worldview you’re bound by its tenets.
I'm not bound by anything I'm giving you clear examples of why your religion and God are amoral and not worthy of following or believing.
You’re a finite being and within your finite existence you’ve been mercifully granted the ability to act however you please. This life is yours to live. Despite that, your choices will still either occur in accordance with God or in opposition to him. The timelines for the two wills are identical, but the relationship between them can be an inverse because you are not coerced into any decision. This discussion alone attests to that very thing. You are not a puppet; in fact, you are the puppeteer coercing your own end. Your will functions concurrently with God’s will, but the two can remain diametrically opposed based solely upon you because God’s will is to align with you in fellowship and righteousness…..he forever wants to pull you close to him yet you desire to push him away.
According to your religion humans aren't finite the soul survives death that would make you infinite and able to survive eternally. And If you believe in God you have no free will because if you choose to push him away you are punished for it , severely !! Your God is a thug and an amoral one at that.
God has revealed his standards, his code of morality, his laws and ultimate justice for his creation and he has every right to do so. His will for you is made plain, but yet you’re free to defy his will. You are not fully autonomous in God’s eternity and in order to be aligned with him you must choose his righteousness and that can only be achieved through him in the person of Jesus Christ.
He has every right to do so?
This is exactly why people who follow him are amoral. You're an abject slave with this mentality. I " choose " not to be in his righteousness by my own " free will " and do NOT fear any punishment for it. If there is a God described by the Bible and I'm sentenced to Hell for choosing to exercise my free will he is unworthy to worship , be praised or followed. If he punishes me because I exercised my own thought processes of critical thinking , logic , reason it proves he's unworthy and amoral
His glory, mercy, grace, peace, love and justice are there for you…..it’s God’s greatest desire that you willfully come to him, but he allows you to determine your own fate. That “heavy consequence” is determined by you. His will is that you come unto him in humble, faithful surrender. Although, if your will differs he honors that and allows you to remain separate from him and all his divine attributes. Every goodness, every mercy, every act of peace and kindness, every happiness and joy is an extension of his divine nature. He will extract all that he is from your eternity so that you no longer have to endure all that he is, but what is left in your eternity is the hell you’ve chosen. Further, given you’ve willfully broken his laws via your sin you’ll face his judgment and your record will be judged accordingly.
I don't want it I've chosen hell , he's unworthy of praise and worship. He's amoral. I turn my back on all of those great things he has in store for me for the simple reason of any deity who would punish you with eternal torture for exercising your own free will if amoral and a false God
Sounds like you have a loving mother that honors God……you’re a lucky man. I’ve heard so many that came from horrific circumstances. God blessing you yet again.
Sounds like my Mother was brainwashed by her parents and didn't have the intellectual honesty to seek out all side of the story and just believe what she was taught because she was taught it and decided to brainwash her children the same way. I however didn't brainwash my children. I let them make their own decisions when they were old enough.
I never baptized my children. My Mother once told my daughter when she was 8 that she was going to hell because she wasn't baptized. Only with religion would telling an 8 year old girl this is acceptable. This caused a HUGE rift between my Mother and I and we didn't speak for a LONG time after that. Imagine telling your 8 year old granddaughter she's going to burn forever because some " Special man didn't pour water on your head " My daughter was traumatized and that's when I let her know , God is a story in a book written by men and that hell is just a story in that book. I let my children decide for themselves if they want to believe in a deity. None of them have.
So Jesus Christ willfully taking on the punishment for our sins is grounded in no moral standards whatsoever? Likewise, I paid someone else’s debt recently in order to help them avoid consequences and that act is also amoral, correct?
No, what you stated is a non sequitur. Further, it's just your opinion.
I don’t doubt it.
Someone murders my child YOU or anyone else have NO right what so ever to take away that " sin " No one else can absolve them on my behalf. Vicarious redemption is amoral. A man rapes , beats and murders your child , Jesus says it's okay and if he's sincere and repents you will all be together in heaven. This is repugnant and disgusting but hey you're all in heaven and there is NO animosity or ill will it's all good we're all in the Kingdom of Heaven
You seem like a nice person but your ideology is disgusting. You seem like a intelligent person but how you can turn a blind eye to this bullshit is beyond me but that's why they call it apologetics.
