Great article on atheism.

[pellius]

I wont play this game with you. Like I said the evils in our world are more shocking and convincing than the positive. That why they make the news.

If it were not for the presence of the divine, evil would have destroyed all life on earth.

I consider dropping the nuclear bomb on Japan cowardice. They were afraid to fight man o man with the crazy Japs.

It's not a game, my friend. It's real. Very real. And you diminish the concept of good and evil and the role it plays in this world. A world where real people suffer real pain and injustice. You will not make the case that good outweighs evil in this world because you know you will lose. There is nothing you can trade or offer to make up, justify, or nullify the burning alive of another human being. Nothing.
So you act like it doesn't matter. You just say the world would be destroyed if there were more bad/evil in the world than good offering no argument or evidence for it.

And the mission in war is to win. To win at all costs. The whole concept of a fair fight, fighting man for man, plays no role in war. No role at all. There are very real consequence to losing a war. The war if fought to be won. And won at all costs.

“There were young knights among them who had never been present at a stricken field. Some could not look upon it and some could not speak, and they held themselves apart from the others who were cutting down the prisoners at My Lord’s orders, for the prisoners were a body too numerous to be guarded by those of us who were left.
 
Then Jean de Rye, an aged knight of Burgundy who had been sore wounded in the battle, rode up to the group of young knights and said: ‘Are ye maidens with your downcast eyes? Look well upon it. See all of it. Close your eyes to nothing. For a battle is fought to be won. And it is this that happens if you lose.’”
 
- Jean Froissart, Chronicles, (c. 1332-c. 1405)

[BigRo]

It's not a game, my friend. It's real. Very real. And you diminish the concept of good and evil and the role it plays in this world. A world where real people suffer real pain and injustice. You will not make the case that good outweighs evil in this world because you know you will lose. There is nothing you can trade or offer to make up, justify, or nullify the burning alive of another human being. Nothing.
So you act like it doesn't matter. You just say the world would be destroyed if there were more bad/evil in the world than good offering no argument or evidence for it.

And the mission in war is to win. To win at all costs. The whole concept of a fair fight, fighting man for man, plays no role in war. No role at all. There are very real consequence to losing a war. The war if fought to be won. And won at all costs.

“There were young knights among them who had never been present at a stricken field. Some could not look upon it and some could not speak, and they held themselves apart from the others who were cutting down the prisoners at My Lord’s orders, for the prisoners were a body too numerous to be guarded by those of us who were left.
 
Then Jean de Rye, an aged knight of Burgundy who had been sore wounded in the battle, rode up to the group of young knights and said: ‘Are ye maidens with your downcast eyes? Look well upon it. See all of it. Close your eyes to nothing. For a battle is fought to be won. And it is this that happens if you lose.’”
 
- Jean Froissart, Chronicles, (c. 1332-c. 1405)

It is a game, a game of who is right and who is wrong. Never a good basis for sound discussion. You continue to put forth shocking examples and think they are evidence enough that the bad outweighs the good in this world. If you look for goodness you will find it in your daily life and all over the world. Perhaps when you look within all you see is darkness therefore conclude humans are inherently sinful through and through.

You talk with conviction about what the essence of war is but your wrong. Indeed it sounds like your a mouthpiece for the very evil we talk about.  So you think Isis methods are justifiable then?

[pellius]

It is a game, a game of who is right and who is wrong. Never a good basis for sound discussion. You continue to put forth shocking examples and think they are evidence enough that the bad outweighs the good in this world. If you look for goodness you will find it in your daily life and all over the world. Perhaps when you look within all you see is darkness therefore conclude humans are inherently sinful through and through.

You talk with conviction about what the essence of war is but your wrong. Indeed it sounds like your a mouthpiece for the very evil we talk about.  So you think Isis methods are justifiable then?

Right and wrong is not game.

A mouth piece for even because anybody engaged in war seeks to win?

I think ISIS methods are justifiable when I use them as an example of evil?

Ro, I think you are a good guy and in person we would get along fine. But you try to present yourself as a spiritual person and more enlightened and deeper than the rest of us pedestrian intellects.

But I've read your debates on various subjects on this board and you are not a logical thinker. You pull outrageous conclusions and non sequiturs out of thin air. Whereas what you take for intellectual and spiritual depth, it comes across more as someone who has overly indulge in hallucinogenic compounds.

I suggest you just dismiss us as beneath your level of enlightenment
and quietly and dignifyingly exit this thread.

Like I said, I like you, so I will not argue with you and just conclude that we have a different perspective and world view of life, the universe and everything (apologises to Douglas Adams).

[BigRo]

Right and wrong is not game.

Its the game we play here on getbig where one upsmanship is the nature of conversation. Getbiggers believe in the dominate or be dominated modus operandi.

A mouth piece for even because anybody engaged in war seeks to win?

I take it you mean Evil, you support the view that any means necessary are ok in warfare to get the job done, even if it means nuking thousands of innocents. I thought you were a religious person who had belief in God, goodnesss, justice, virtue.

I think ISIS methods are justifiable when I use them as an example of evil?

Isis feels itself to be at war with the heathens, you support the view that all methods can be used to achieve ones aims in war since warfare is devoid of virtue.

Ro, I think you are a good guy and in person we would get along fine. But you try to present yourself as a spiritual person and more enlightened and deeper than the rest of us pedestrian intellects.

I do not try to present myself as something I am not. Nor do I try and come off as holier or higher than others to bolster my sense of self.

But I've read your debates on various subjects on this board and you are not a logical thinker. You pull outrageous conclusions and non sequiturs out of thin air. Whereas what you take for intellectual and spiritual depth, it comes across more as someone who has overly indulge in hallucinogenic compounds.

I don't feel it necessary to subscribe to some consensus of what logical is. I am an alternative thinker here on getbig, yet there would be concord with my views in other circles. I do not overly indulge in sacred plant medicines.

I suggest you just dismiss us as beneath your level of enlightenment
and quietly and dignifyingly exit this thread.

I enjoy debate so why should I

Like I said, I like you, so I will not argue with you and just conclude that we have a different perspective and world view of life, the universe and everything (apologises to Douglas Adams).

[Irongrip400]

In the end, if you adhere to the 10 commandments (which is just a set of rules for good living) and when you die there is nothing, what is the real problem with that?  If you lived your whole life not being a dick, does it really matter whether or not you go to Heaven or Hell?  Isn't it just good enough to think that you didn't piss people off, and did not contribute to making their brief time on this planet terrible?

[SF1900]

I don't think this is precise. The purpose of atheism, as with all ideologies, is to tell the truth. What they believe is true. It has no purpose in so far that, unlike religion, it doesn't tell you how you should live your life. That is a separated issue. It takes no position, in so far as it is base on the nonexistence of God, on ethical and moral positions. That's a whole other ball game.

To tell the truth about one question and one question only. Atheism does not espouse any other ideology.

That is what I said.

[Man of Steel]

To tell the truth about one question and one question only. Atheism does not espouse any other ideology.

That is what I said.

I've dug in on this a bit before and in general I agree with this.  

The only thing that I would say is that some of the largest atheist organization due have codes, creeds, etc...."aims and principles"

I've seen Ricky Gervais make this same comment in a number of interviews, but it's just not universally applicable for all atheists.

For example, The Atheist Community of Austin is a big atheist organization that has hosted the National Atheist Conference in 2013 and has broadcasted the Atheist Experience show for many, many years now both on public television and now youtube.  

http://www.atheist-community.org/library/positions/

They profess the following beliefs or "position statements" as they prefer:

Position Statements

The Atheist Community of Austin is a non-profit, educational organization involved in community outreach and activism. Our various media outreach programs and activities afford us the opportunity to speak out on a number of issues. Atheism is misunderstood and misrepresented and we feel it is important that our community has official, public positions on a number of issues.

Atheism is a singular position about the existence of a god or gods and the beliefs of individual atheists on other issues are diverse. These statements represent the official positions of this organization and do not represent the position of all atheists or ACA members. Acceptance of these positions is not required for membership in the ACA.

Primary Positions

Church-State Separation

The ACA understands:

Article VI of the United States Constitution prohibits any religious test for public office
The First Amendment necessarily requires that our government remain neutral with regard to religion
The Fourteenth Amendment extends amendments to the US Constitution to the state governments
We believe that this neutral position ensures that no religion receives preferential treatment over another religion, or the lack of religion.

We support the right of each individual to believe or disbelieve as they choose. We support the right of individuals to practice their religious beliefs to the extent that such practice does not inhibit or infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others.

Human Rights

The ACA opposes legislation that seeks to discriminate against individuals on the basis of sex, race, religious belief, sexual orientation or other status. We believe that laws and regulations which limit or deny freedoms and rights must have a valid, secular foundation.

Secondary Positions

The ACA considers the following positions to be logical extensions of our primary position statements.

Religious Displays

The ACA believes that religious displays on public property violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment and therefore should be banned. These displays represent favoritism toward a particular religion or group of religions and serve as an implicit endorsement. Additionally, they represent a divisive mechanism which marginalizes that segment of the population, religious or not, which does not subscribe to the represented beliefs.

The ACA believes that religious messages included in anthems, mottos and pledges are also violations of the First Amendment.

Creationism and Intelligent Design

Creationism is the religious assertion that life on Earth was created by a supernatural entity. While we support the right of any individual to hold this belief, it is unsupported by science, and the Supreme Court of the United States has rightly determined that creationism violates the "Lemon Test." As such, creationism constitutes promotion of religion and cannot be taught in public schools.

Intelligent Design is the assertion that the current theory of evolution and natural selection is insufficient to properly explain the complexity of life on Earth. While that objection may be reasonable, Intelligent Design proponents advance the additional claim that the correct explanation must include intervention by an intelligent entity. While they staunchly refuse to identify this entity, the general view among most advocates is that this entity is "God".

The Intelligent Design movement has been unable to support their assertions with scientific evidence and has often been called "Creationism in a lab coat" or "Creationism in disguise".

The ACA supports the various legal rulings which prohibit teaching these unproven assertions and religious opinions in public school science classes.

Public Education

The ACA believes that public education is absolutely essential to the future welfare of our nation, and the world. We support efforts to improve the quality of the public education by:

Encouraging the development of critical thinking skills
Instilling appreciation for the arts and humanities
Maintaining the integrity of science
Providing a safe, healthy and productive learning environment
As a government institution which serves citizens of many different social, economic and religious backgrounds, public education must remain neutral with regard to religion.
We believe that we must strive to provide all students with the equal opportunity to receive a robust and diverse education.

Reproductive Rights

The ACA holds that individual human rights necessarily include the premise of individual sovereignty with regard to decisions that affect one's person. In support of this premise, the ACA supports:

The right of all consenting adults, of all sexual preferences, to responsibly manage their own sexual activities without unnecessary interference or restriction
Robust and properly informative education regarding human sexuality, birth control, family planning, sexually transmitted disease and pregnancy termination
The ACA strongly opposes "abstinence-only" sex education. Abstinence-only sex education is a naive concept which ignores the reality of human sexuality and fails to properly educate individuals; often resulting in increased rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease.

The ACA strongly opposes the "Global Gag Rule", and any similar legislation or restrictions which seeks to limit or provide preferential funding to health organizations based on the inclusion of abortion and abortion-education services in their programs. These actions represent the worst sort of manipulation; forcing clinics to jeopardize the health of many patients in order to receive much needed funding.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair who once resided in Austin, Texas founded and presided over the American Atheists organization.  They profess the following beliefs or "Aims and Principles" as they prefer:

http://atheists.org/about-us/aims-and-purposes

AIMS AND PRINCIPLES

American Atheists, Inc. is a nonprofit, nonpolitical, educational organization dedicated to the complete and absolute separation of state and church, accepting the explanation of Thomas Jefferson that the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was meant to create a "wall of separation" between state and church.

American Atheists, Inc., is organized

to stimulate and promote freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious beliefs, creeds, dogmas, tenets, rituals, and practices;
to collect and disseminate information, data, and literature on all religions and promote a more thorough understanding of them, their origins, and their histories;
to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the complete and absolute separation of state and church;
to advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the establishment and maintenance of a thoroughly secular system of education available to all;
to encourage the development and public acceptance of a humane ethical system stressing the mutual sympathy, understanding, and interdependence of all people and the corresponding responsibility of each individual in relation to society;
to develop and propagate a social philosophy in which humankind is central and must itself be the source of strength, progress, and ideals for the well-being and happiness of humanity;
to promote the study of the arts and sciences and of all problems affecting the maintenance, perpetuation, and enrichment of human (and other) life;
to engage in such social, educational, legal, and cultural activity as will be useful and beneficial to the members of American Atheists and to society as a whole.
Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind -- finding their resources within themselves -- can and must create their own destiny. Materialism restores dignity and intellectual integrity to humanity. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism's "faith" is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment which is in its very essence life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.

[SF1900]

I've dug in on this a bit before and in general I agree with this.  

The only thing that I would say is that some of the largest atheist organization due have codes, creeds, etc...."aims and principles"

I still do not agree, and I am not referring to the few large organization. In my opinion, you can't make the claim that atheists espouse a certain way to live based on a few organizations. That is much different than millions, if not billions of people who pretty much follow the same exact book (bible). That means any crackpot atheist with a sign on a streetcorner can espouse a way to live. That is much different than having a book, a place of worship, where all people congregate and agree on a specific way of living (christianity). Atheism does not have that. If these organizations are espousing a way to live, its very "loosely."

[Man of Steel]

I still do not agree, and I am not referring to the few large organization. In my opinion, you can't make the claim that atheists espouse a certain way to live based on a few organizations. That is much different than millions, if not billions of people who pretty much follow the same exact book (bible). That means any crackpot atheist with a sign on a streetcorner can espouse a way to live. That is much different than having a book, a place of worship, where all people congregate and agree on a specific way of living (christianity). Atheism does not have that. If these organizations are espousing a way to live, its very "loosely."

I agree with you.  I think the majority of atheists have a "do whatever you want" philosophy with the caveat that "doing whatever you want" doesn't cause God and religion to mix into their lives.  Difficulty is that little caveat is enormously impacting to billions and billions.   I grasp the situation, but it's just not as simple as the atheist saying "look, we just have no belief in gods in our lives....we are just without God....that' it....simple.  Life however you want provided you have no god stuff mix or interfere with my life in anyway whatsoever."   That's an impossible proposition for many.  

[BigRo]

An atheist saying they live without God is like a fish saying they live without water 

[SF1900]

I agree with you.  I think the majority of atheists have a "do whatever you want" philosophy with the caveat that "doing whatever you want" doesn't cause God and religion to mix into their lives.  Difficulty is that little caveat is enormously impacting to billions and billions.   I grasp the situation, but it's just not as simple as the atheist saying "look, we just have no belief in gods in our lives....we are just without God....that' it.....simple.  Life however you want provided you have no god stuff mix or interfere with my life in anyway whatsoever."   That's an impossible proposition for many. 

Well, yes, in a perfect world, religion and God would be kept out of my life, especially in the areas of state and federal sectors.

For me, I do not care that I have to drive passed a church that is down the block from my house. I do not want it removed. When atheists say they want religion and God out of their lives, they are not referring to having all churches removed. Its impossible to have religion completely removed from my life, since I have to drive passed places of worship, and attend funeral or weddings, that often take place in places of worship.

When I say I do not want God in my life, I mean I do not want to walk into a NYC public school and see a cross hanging on the wall. I do not want to enter into a public college and seeing the a picture of JC. I dont want random people coming up to me preaching, otherwise I will tell them politely to get out of my face.  When atheists say they dont want God in their lives, they are more referring to as it exists on state and federal places. There have been MANY cases where religious people have tried to place religious artifacts on state or federal grounds. Guess what? The Supreme Court had them removed. To me, that is not having religion in my life. From a personal perspective, religion is not in my life whatsoever. From a societal perspective, of course it is. There is no way of getting around it. I will take what I can get.

[Necrosis]

Without our personal superficial minds yes, without our cosmic mind no.

Spirituality is the tool to understand the source of life.

you know the source of life?

[SF1900]

you know the source of life?

lol. Anyone who claims to have answers to such big questions, you just have to laugh at them. Pat them on the head, and be on your way.

[10pints]

Without our personal superficial minds yes, without our cosmic mind no.

Spirituality Psychedelic drugs are the tool to explore the source of life.

Fixed

[The Ugly]

I wont play this game with you. Like I said the evils in our world are more shocking and convincing than the positive. That why they make the news.

If it were not for the presence of the divine, evil would have destroyed all life on earth.

I consider dropping the nuclear bomb on Japan cowardice. They were afraid to fight man o man with the crazy Japs.

Of course, because war is a bigger peepee contest. Childish reasoning.

[forillagorilla]

The only reason atheists are trying to convert the religious is because the religious have become so dangerous and offensive.  Religious cultures have monopolised the modern world and made life difficult for the atheist, and at times very dangerous.  It is no wonder the atheists are fighting back.  Not to mention how intolerable it is for intelligent and reasonable people to live amongst the majority who are morons.  The absurdity of it all for the intelligent person is so overwhelming that at times they cannot hold their tongue.  The wiser one becomes the harder it is to tolerate fools, of which their is an abundance of in this world.  Religion makes people stupid and is like a lightning rod for fools, reasoning and science make individuals smarter, but more intolerant of idiots.(aka religious folk)

Its rather sad that even with all of that knowledge you have obtained - LOL - you are still a failure. How is that possible? I guess being dumb and successful is my lot in life -      In fact I have quite a few wealthy morons as friends. Ironically - I bet we all employ genius atheists..  We better be careful or they will use all that brain power to put us in our places -  

[BigRo]

Fixed

both, taken by with a weak scattered mind they can be detrimental.

[BigRo]

you know the source of life?

the origin of all that exists, the point of oneness out of which multiplicity arises is the very essence of who we are. I will make no personal statements. All the wisdom traditions say this.

[forillagorilla]

both, taken by with a weak scattered mind they can be detrimental.

EXACTLY - when ones spirit and fortitude is weak they cannot risk faith. Most atheists that I have encountered are simply "have nots" who are bitter because of their shortcomings. The easiest thing to do is waste all day every day pretending to be an intellect online. These guys typically LOVE fantasy genre movies (Beowulf) because they can pretend that they are great and that the reality of the jock kicking their ass in high school wasn't REAL. I was never cruel to the weak - and in fact didn't tolerate it at my school. Sadly - those guys grow up to be oddballs. Of course immediately they attempt to diffuse things by attempting to be clever - but deep inside they remember.

I don't understand how others don't find it odd that some weirdos live their little fantasy lives on the internet. It actually means something for them to "own minds" - lol.. That sounds so pathetic. I don't get off on it - and ABSOLUTELY do not see my employees this way - but if you are going to "own" someone to feel powerful then actually OWN them...

[Man of Steel]

Sorry for long reply, but I have the majority of responses I've written previously at my fingertips so I can often copy and paste.

The proposition states believe or burn. If you don't not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord & Savior you're doomed to eternal damnation. I " choose " not to believe in deities so by default I'm going to be punished for it. I'm choosing to decide there is NOT sufficient evidence for any deities and will no follow what I consider to be a false doctrine and live a lie not even for Pascal's wager , just in case there is.

Again, you’ve eliminated sin entirely from the discussion.  You’ve removed any personal accountability or responsibility for breaking God’s law.   In one breathe you simply say there is no God and another you acknowledge the existence of God but call him amoral.   You define the proposition as “believe or burn”, but that isn’t correct.   The reality is that Jesus Christ came as the incarnate son of God here on earth and live and died as a blameless, sinless man so that your sins could be paid for.   If folks never broke God’s law there would be no need for Christ’s act on Calvary’s cross.   You take the convenient atheist position of “believe or burn” that ignores sin (and somehow absolves you of sin at the same time) and then twist the situation into a heinous, evil dictatorial stance by God.  “Believe and worship me or burn in hell!!  MUAH-HAH-HAH!!!”  [cue thunder, lightning, roaring seas, earthquakes and expressions of terror].  This is an invention, not the Christian worldview.

The only idea that is absolutely correct concerning your absolute statement of “NOT sufficient evidence” is that it is absolutely subjective.   You are dialoguing with evidence for God right now.  The reality of who he is is being shared with you currently.   It isn’t up to me to convince you and we can speak about logic, archeological findings, history of Jesus, scripture, personal revelations of God, etc…..  In the end it’s up to you to determine if you want to know the reality of God in your life.  When you approach God you come to him according to his terms as laid out in scripture.  I can certainly assist with that, but I can only lead a horse to water.  

God’s law and knowledge of him is already imprinted upon you, but folks forcibly suppress that and often opt to endlessly argue about why they are not going to seek him on his terms in scripture….a lifetime of excuses is often sought to avoid minutes of humble, private personal prayer.  Instead folks spend a lifetime suppressing and attempting to convince themselves that God isn’t real or that he's unjust (in our case "amoral").  It’s only about God that people do such things.  Very few people spend lifetimes passionately arguing about things that are truly “fairytales and myths”.  Those things are dismissed almost instantly, but not God.  No, there’s an endless pursuit to either live for God or deny God and despite existing in either camp the pursuit never ends.   Many, many folks that deny God have devoted their lives to studying his word, debating his word, debating his church, writing books about him and all because “there is no God”.   I find that very interesting.  

I'm saying your God is amoral if he would punish his creations for the faults he designed them with. I'm saying a God who demands to be worshiped or else be punished is an amoral God and NOT worthy or praise or worship. A entity with the abilities to " create " an entire Universe/Multiverse and all life within would be so intelligent and sublime he would in no way shape or form demand to be worshiped or praised it's beneath such intelligence and this proves your God is a story based off of fallible men projecting their frail human egos unto their " God "

No, God demands that in order to exist with him that you must forgo of your sin and be brought into righteousness.   God is worthy of worship and those that desire for God has worship and praise often pouring out of them.....I do.   What appears designed into each of is a desire to worship and praise.  Yes, we have a proclivity for sin in us, but not a preprogrammed set of sins to commit….simply not the case.  

What is worship though?

Simply put, God is the essence of righteousness….the bar…..the creator…..the standard…..the law.   He is the greatest possible being there is, was and ever will be.

God created us in his divine image (a generous act on his part) and defined for us two important roles within his creation: one, a kingly role in which we govern over his creation; two, a priest type role in which we walk in faithful service with God and surrender to his will for our lives so that others may draw close to him as well.   The goodness of God flows to his creation and thereby becomes an extension of his church…..we are equipped with his attributes.

To worship God means to be included in his existence and to acknowledge his position in the order of all things and to also understand our role within his creation.   We are creatures that literally overflow with worship for things we love and admire and cherish most……worship and praise pours out of us.  God doesn’t need our worship though….his existence is not contingent upon it, but he created us so that we may enter into fellowship with him and engage in praise in worship for which is absolutely worthy.   As part of the created order we give praise for those things we value the most in life.  Believers enjoy the very presence of God and he enjoys ours as well….it’s a relationship.  Given his exalted status when we are given his approval it elicits our praise and worship….we almost can’t help it at times LOL.

As C.S. Lewis notes in reference to praise and worship:

“But the most obvious fact about praise – whether of God or anything – strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honour. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless . . . shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise – lovers praising their mistresses [Romeo praising Juliet and vice versa], readers their favourite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favourite game – praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. . . . Except where intolerably adverse circumstances interfere, praise almost seems to be inner health made audible. . . . I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise whatever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: 'Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?' The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.”

Further the idea of sin built into for which we’re punished regardless is fallacious.  Our proof is children.

When I read about King David’s child with Bathsheba passing away and David suggesting that as a believer he would he see his child again in God’s kingdom it affirmed for me the innocence of children and others with disabilities that prevent them from making an honest choice about sin and Christ in their lives.  They don’t need salvation because being saved by grace through faith in Christ means we are saved from the wrath/judgment of God.  The innocents need not fear God’s wrath for they are without blame or need for judgment.  

“Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. Then he said, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.  So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.’”

Christ also indicated how severely those that cause the children (the little ones) to fall into sin would be judged.  The children are lead into sin and out of innocence.  

As believers in Christ we are saved by grace through faith and thereby justified and deemed righteous….like the innocents who are inherently righteous we become like the them through Christ.  Anyone who comes to God and desires forgivenessness and righteousness will be deemed as such.  

Easy , as stated the consequence for choosing not to believe. It's like like I said " Hey you want to believe cool , and if not that's cool too. " It's analogous to the Mafia who says " You have a nice store here , shame if anything would happen to it , you pay us and we'll make sure nothing happens to it. " It's do as I say or else. This isn't a choice. God says believe in me or else I will severely punish you. This amoral.

Above I illustrated your depiction of God as an evil dictator and here you reference him as some Godfather, Al Capone, Jon Gotti, Mafioso type…..not the case….see above.

There is absolutely zero proof of hell or heaven, however this is how religion describes it. " A lake of fire " where you will apparently be given an indestructible so you can feel all of the torment and pain for eternity " But God loves you "

There’s proof of everything and it resides in the Holy Spirit of God.   Those that have come into humble, surrender before God and accept what Christ did for them on Calvary’s cross and proclaim him as savior and Lord have within them the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit….it’s undeniable for believers.  That presence alone confirms the whole of scripture, but you only experience the revelation of God in two ways: abiding by God’s terms in scripture or a special revelation of God’s choosing (rare).

There’s all sorts of proof for the bible and Jesus Christ, but none of it matters if you remain in a state of suppression and rejection.  God desires for you to desire him.  The gateway to him is open you must be willing to walk through and that narrow gate is Jesus Christ.

Now previously I asked how you know the flames of hell are literal?   I’ll keep that question open for now.  

The “lake of fire” is found only in the book of Revelation.  This is an incredibly prophetic book and it’s imagery is both vivid and often difficult to understand.  The “lake of fire” is also referred as the “second death” which is an eternal separation from God and all his divine attributes.   Despite the vivid imagery in these passages the interpretation cannot be said to be completely literal.  I certainly can’t say that.

According to your religion humans aren't finite the soul survives death that would make you infinite and able to survive eternally. And If you believe in God you have no free will because if you choose to push him away you are punished for it , severely !! Your God is a thug and an amoral one at that.

Again, I already noted that you attempting to subvert the concept of "free will" with a flawed notion of “complete autonomy”.   It isn’t the same thing.   Within our finite existence we have the ability to do whatever we please, but we do have some primary choices to make about our sin and relationship with Christ.   Reason being is that when we exit this life we enter God’s eternity and we are ……ah, I said all this in my previous reply LOL…..see that.

He has every right to do so?   This is exactly why people who follow him are amoral. You're an abject slave with this mentality. I " choose " not to be in his righteousness by my own " free will " and do NOT fear any punishment for it. If there is a God described by the Bible and I'm sentenced to Hell for choosing to exercise my free will he is unworthy to worship , be praised or followed. If he punishes me because I exercised my own thought processes of critical thinking , logic , reason it proves he's unworthy and amoral

I understand, you want a consequence free existence with total autonomy.

I don't want it I've chosen hell , he's unworthy of praise and worship. He's amoral. I turn my back on all of those great things he has in store for me for the simple reason of any deity who would punish you with eternal torture for exercising your own free will if amoral and a false God

I understand.               

Sounds like my Mother was brainwashed by her parents and didn't have the intellectual honesty to seek out all side of the story and just believe what she was taught because she was taught it and decided to brainwash her children the same way. I however didn't brainwash my children. I let them make their own decisions when they were old enough.

I understand.   

I never baptized my children. My Mother once told my daughter when she was 8 that she was going to hell because she wasn't baptized. Only with religion would telling an 8 year old girl this is acceptable. This caused a HUGE rift between my Mother and I and we didn't speak for a LONG time after that. Imagine telling your 8 year old granddaughter she's going to burn forever because some " Special man didn't pour water on your head " My daughter was traumatized and that's when I let her know , God is a story in a book written by men and that hell is just a story in that book. I let my children decide for themselves if they want to believe in a deity. None of them have.

Your mother approached that situation poorly and I’m sorry about that.  I would never confront a child of that age with the doctrine of hell.   It’s unnecessary for a child to discuss those kinds of topics that can’t fully grasp.   That was a poor choice.
  

Someone murders my child YOU or anyone else have NO right what so ever to take away that " sin " No one else can absolve them on my behalf. Vicarious redemption is amoral. A man rapes , beats and murders your child , Jesus says it's okay and if he's sincere and repents you will all be together in heaven. This is repugnant and disgusting but hey you're all in heaven and there is NO animosity or ill will it's all good we're all in the Kingdom of Heaven  

I've seen my best friend deny God because of the loss of his grandmother (who served as his mother for most of his youth).   I've seen families torn apart because of the loss of loved ones.  I've seen men and women of God leave their faith behind when death comes in their lives.   My grandmother lost my grandfather 21 years ago and to this day she talks about him and misses him dearly every single day and questions why God took him like he did.

I've also seen the best come out of folks in moments of utter despair.  

I watched my sister tragically lose her fiance 4 years ago.  Great guy....strong, fit, growing career and then one evening on a stair climber at the gym his heart stopped and he died almost instantly.  It was later discovered he had an undiagnosed heart condition since birth (doctors believe) and the Lord took him home.  My sister was obliterated, but she grew in her faith because of it....she actually drew closer to God in the process.  Since that time she's undertaken a number of charitable events in his name and keeps contact with his family.  She’s witnessed to members of my family and others and has become a strong, strong woman because of the loss.  Just two weeks ago she announced her engagement to a new man in her life.....another terrific man.  It's a blessing seeing all my sisters married to good men that love them and their families.  My sister will always remember the man she lost tragically and we won't know exactly why the Lord called him home like he did, but I can say that he's now with his Lord and savior and his memory and my sister's testimony has touched so many over the last 4 years.  

Another story (and I've shared this before) involves a coworker of my wife....awesome story!!    My wife's coworker lost her baby granddaughter tragically in an accident caused by her son (the child's uncle).  The child's mother was devastated as was her brother who was responsible for the accident, but in a moment of sheer grace and love the mother completely forgave her brother.  While on their knees, within a private moment of utter grace and despair and forgiveness, my wife's coworker snapped a picture of the two of them on their knees in an embrace in the child's room.  At the child's funeral the child's estranged biker father came with his entire biker gang with the intent of killing his brother in law because of the death of his daughter.  At the funeral service the mother shared Christ with the crowd and the forgiveness and love she had for her brother.  They showed a slide show of the life of the young child that was taken and the precious image capture by their mother (my wife’s coworker) on their knees in the child's room. That day the entire biker gang dedicated their lives to Christ and forgave the lost child’s uncle.

I recall a story I was told by an African missionary who had worked in various countries of Africa for many years.  He and his wife were both wonderful servants of the church. One tragic day a notorious gang apprehended the missionary couple and proceeded to beat the missionary man half to death.  They allowed him to live in order for him to watch the gang rape his wife and then beat her and murder her by firing squad.   These men were eventually caught for their crimes, but the missionary man (filled with the love and grace of Christ Jesus) forgave the men (despite his loss) and evn lead some of to accept Christ as their savior turning their lives completely around.  

Sometimes the evil we perceive in our lives, when put in the hands of God, can change lives in powerful positive ways we'd never expect.

We tend to focus on the darkness and negativity of each moment, but we rarely take the time to revisit the situation years later or chronicle the aftermath.....we miss the potential and the reality of so much goodness that often arises out of tragedy.  I don’t enjoy being put to the fire, but I can assure you that Jesus Christ is best way through it!  His grace, mercy and justice is simply unfathomable.

You seem like a nice person but your ideology is disgusting. You seem like a intelligent person but how you can turn a blind eye to this bullshit is beyond me but that's why they call it apologetics.
 

You seem like a decent, intelligent man as well.  If you needed help I’d help you or your family.  If was stranded and needed help I believe you'd help me or my family.  

Apologetics does not turn a blind eye on anything.  It adds the all important context, explains ideas, helps give theological guidance, but most importantly it gives the reason for having the hope we do in Christ.

It’s why I have 1 Peter 3:15 is under my avatar…..that’s the foundation of apologetics in scripture.

1 Peter 3:15
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

[Overload]

Then you have Dawkinsian atheists....these are your four horsemen, pro debaters, celebrities, youtubers, vloggers, meme posters, online comment section posters, radio personalities, the Bill Mahers, the George Carlins, etc....most are just bile and venom for religion.   The vast majority will go to their graves with atheism and will proclaim it until their dying breath.

Sounds more like the religious nutjobs i see on TV all day long.  Listen to any Pastor/Preacher/Molester and if you actually listen to the words(even repeat them out loud), it's the most insane shit you have heard in your life.  Not a word of it relates to real life, just fantasy.

At least the people you mentioned above made their own choice without being brainwashed into believeing about the big place up in the sky.

I didn't read the article, i just like throwing jabs at religious people every chance i get. 

Have a blessed day!

[Man of Steel]

Sounds more like the religious nutjobs i see on TV all day long.  Listen to any Pastor/Preacher/Molester and if you actually listen to the words(even repeat them out loud), it's the most insane shit you have heard in your life.  Not a word of it relates to real life, just fantasy.

At least the people you mentioned above made their own choice without being brainwashed into believeing about the big place up in the sky.

I didn't read the article, i just like throwing jabs at religious people every chance i get. 

Have a blessed day!

I wasn't brainwashed into anything.  I was raised in a Christian home.  Basically left it completely on my own.  Later came to Christ on my own in humble surrender and experienced the revelation of Christ's reality.   Made all my own choices too.

You can jab at me all day long if you want. 

[BigRo]

Man of Steel how much time in your day do you set aside for prayer and in those moments do you experience a settled peace where you no longer are thinking about anything in particular just dwelling in the felt presence of the spirit? Or when you pray are you always dwelling apon something in particular that requires activity of mind?

[NarcissisticDeity]

Sorry for long reply, but I have the majority of responses I've written previously at my fingertips so I can often copy and paste.

Again, you’ve eliminated sin entirely from the discussion.  You’ve removed any personal accountability or responsibility for breaking God’s law.   In one breathe you simply say there is no God and another you acknowledge the existence of God but call him amoral.   You define the proposition as “believe or burn”, but that isn’t correct.   The reality is that Jesus Christ came as the incarnate son of God here on earth and live and died as a blameless, sinless man so that your sins could be paid for.   If folks never broke God’s law there would be no need for Christ’s act on Calvary’s cross.   You take the convenient atheist position of “believe or burn” that ignores sin (and somehow absolves you of sin at the same time) and then twist the situation into a heinous, evil dictatorial stance by God.  “Believe and worship me or burn in hell!!  MUAH-HAH-HAH!!!”  [cue thunder, lightning, roaring seas, earthquakes and expressions of terror].  This is an invention, not the Christian worldview.

The only idea that is absolutely correct concerning your absolute statement of “NOT sufficient evidence” is that it is absolutely subjective.   You are dialoguing with evidence for God right now.  The reality of who he is is being shared with you currently.   It isn’t up to me to convince you and we can speak about logic, archeological findings, history of Jesus, scripture, personal revelations of God, etc…..  In the end it’s up to you to determine if you want to know the reality of God in your life.  When you approach God you come to him according to his terms as laid out in scripture.  I can certainly assist with that, but I can only lead a horse to water.  

God’s law and knowledge of him is already imprinted upon you, but folks forcibly suppress that and often opt to endlessly argue about why they are not going to seek him on his terms in scripture….a lifetime of excuses is often sought to avoid minutes of humble, private personal prayer.  Instead folks spend a lifetime suppressing and attempting to convince themselves that God isn’t real or that he's unjust (in our case "amoral").  It’s only about God that people do such things.  Very few people spend lifetimes passionately arguing about things that are truly “fairytales and myths”.  Those things are dismissed almost instantly, but not God.  No, there’s an endless pursuit to either live for God or deny God and despite existing in either camp the pursuit never ends.   Many, many folks that deny God have devoted their lives to studying his word, debating his word, debating his church, writing books about him and all because “there is no God”.   I find that very interesting.  

No, God demands that in order to exist with him that you must forgo of your sin and be brought into righteousness.   God is worthy of worship and those that desire for God has worship and praise often pouring out of them.....I do.   What appears designed into each of is a desire to worship and praise.  Yes, we have a proclivity for sin in us, but not a preprogrammed set of sins to commit….simply not the case.  

What is worship though?

Simply put, God is the essence of righteousness….the bar…..the creator…..the standard…..the law.   He is the greatest possible being there is, was and ever will be.

God created us in his divine image (a generous act on his part) and defined for us two important roles within his creation: one, a kingly role in which we govern over his creation; two, a priest type role in which we walk in faithful service with God and surrender to his will for our lives so that others may draw close to him as well.   The goodness of God flows to his creation and thereby becomes an extension of his church…..we are equipped with his attributes.

To worship God means to be included in his existence and to acknowledge his position in the order of all things and to also understand our role within his creation.   We are creatures that literally overflow with worship for things we love and admire and cherish most……worship and praise pours out of us.  God doesn’t need our worship though….his existence is not contingent upon it, but he created us so that we may enter into fellowship with him and engage in praise in worship for which is absolutely worthy.   As part of the created order we give praise for those things we value the most in life.  Believers enjoy the very presence of God and he enjoys ours as well….it’s a relationship.  Given his exalted status when we are given his approval it elicits our praise and worship….we almost can’t help it at times LOL.

As C.S. Lewis notes in reference to praise and worship:

“But the most obvious fact about praise – whether of God or anything – strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honour. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless . . . shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise – lovers praising their mistresses [Romeo praising Juliet and vice versa], readers their favourite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favourite game – praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. . . . Except where intolerably adverse circumstances interfere, praise almost seems to be inner health made audible. . . . I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise whatever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: 'Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?' The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.”

Further the idea of sin built into for which we’re punished regardless is fallacious.  Our prove is children.

When I read about King David’s child with Bathsheba passing away and David suggesting that as a believer he would he see his child again in God’s kingdom it affirmed for me the innocence of children and others with disabilities that prevent them from making an honest choice about sin and Christ in their lives.  They don’t need salvation because being saved by grace through faith in Christ means we are saved from the wrath/judgment of God.  The innocents need not fear God’s wrath for they are without blame or need for judgment.  

“Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. Then he said, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.  So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.’”

Christ also indicated how severely those that cause the children (the little ones) to fall into sin would be judged.  The children are lead into sin and out of innocence.  

As believers in Christ we are saved by grace through faith and thereby justified and deemed righteous….like the innocents who are inherently righteous we become like the them through Christ.  Anyone who comes to God and desires forgivenessness and righteousness will be deemed as such.  

Above I illustrated your depiction of God as an evil dictator and here you reference him as some Godfather, Al Capone, Jon Gotti, Mafioso type…..not the case….see above.

There’s proof of everything and it resides in the Holy Spirit of God.   Those that have come into humble, surrender before God and accept what Christ did for them on Calvary’s cross and proclaim him as savior and Lord have within them the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit….it’s undeniable for believers.  That presence alone confirms the whole of scripture, but you only experience the revelation of God in two ways: abiding by God’s terms in scripture or a special revelation of God’s choosing (rare).

There’s all sorts of proof for the bible and Jesus Christ, but none of it matters if you remain in a state of suppression and rejection.  God desires for you to desire him.  The gateway to him is open you must be willing to walk through and that narrow gate is Jesus Christ.

Now previously I asked how you know the flames of hell are literal?   I’ll keep that question open for now.  

The “lake of fire” is found only in the book of Revelation.  This is an incredibly prophetic book and it’s imagery is both vivid and often difficult to understand.  The “lake of fire” is also referred as the “second death” which is an eternal separation from God and all his divine attributes.   Despite the vivid imagery in these passages the interpretation cannot be said to be completely literal.  I certainly can’t say that.

Again, I already noted that you attempting to subvert the concept of "free will" with a flawed notion of “complete autonomy”.   It isn’t the same thing.   Within our finite existence we have the ability to do whatever we please, but we do have some primary choices to make about our sin and relationship with Christ.   Reason being is that when we exit this life we enter God’s eternity and we are ……ah, I said all this in my previous reply LOL…..see that.

I understand, you want a consequence free existence with total autonomy.

I understand.               

I understand.   

Your mother approached that situation poorly and I’m sorry about that.  I would never confront a child of that age with the doctrine of hell.   It’s unnecessary for a child to discuss those kinds of topics that can’t fully grasp.   That was a poor choice.
  
I've seen my best friend deny God because of the loss of his grandmother (who served as his mother for most of his youth).   I've seen families torn apart because of the loss of loved ones.  I've seen men and women of God leave their faith behind when death comes in their lives.   My grandmother lost my grandfather 21 years ago and to this day she talks about him and misses him dearly every single day and questions why God took him like he did.

I've also seen the best come out of folks in moments of utter despair.  

I watched my sister tragically lose her fiance 4 years ago.  Great guy....strong, fit, growing career and then one evening on a stair climber at the gym his heart stopped and he died almost instantly.  It was later discovered he had an undiagnosed heart condition since birth (doctors believe) and the Lord took him home.  My sister was obliterated, but she grew in her faith because of it....she actually drew closer to God in the process.  Since that time she's undertaken a number of charitable events in his name and keeps contact with his family.  She’s witnessed to members of my family and others and has become a strong, strong woman because of the loss.  Just two weeks ago she announced her engagement to a new man in her life.....another terrific man.  It's a blessing seeing all my sisters married to good men that love them and their families.  My sister will always remember the man she lost tragically and we won't know exactly why the Lord called him home like he did, but I can say that he's now with his Lord and savior and his memory and my sister's testimony has touched so many over the last 4 years.  

Another story (and I've shared this before) involves a coworker of my wife....awesome story!!    My wife's coworker lost her baby granddaughter tragically in an accident caused by her son (the child's uncle).  The child's mother was devastated as was her brother who was responsible for the accident, but in a moment of sheer grace and love the mother completely forgave her brother.  While on their knees, within a private moment of utter grace and despair and forgiveness, my wife's coworker snapped a picture of the two of them on their knees in an embrace in the child's room.  At the child's funeral the child's estranged biker father came with his entire biker gang with the intent of killing his brother in law because of the death of his daughter.  At the funeral service the mother shared Christ with the crowd and the forgiveness and love she had for her brother.  They showed a slide show of the life of the young child that was taken and the precious image capture by their mother (my wife’s coworker) on their knees in the child's room. That day the entire biker gang dedicated their lives to Christ and forgave the lost child’s uncle.

I recall a story I was told by an African missionary who had worked in various countries of Africa for many years.  He and his wife were both wonderful servants of the church. One tragic day a notorious gang apprehended the missionary couple and proceeded to beat the missionary man half to death.  They allowed him to live in order for him to watch the gang rape his wife and then beat her and murder her by firing squad.   These men were eventually caught for their crimes, but the missionary man (filled with the love and grace of Christ Jesus) forgave the men (despite his loss) and evn lead some of to accept Christ as their savior turning their lives completely around.  

Sometimes the evil we perceive in our lives, when put in the hands of God, can change lives in powerful positive ways we'd never expect.

We tend to focus on the darkness and negativity of each moment, but we rarely take the time to revisit the situation years later or chronicle the aftermath.....we miss the potential and the reality of so much goodness that often arises out of tragedy.  I don’t enjoy being put to the fire, but I can assure you that Jesus Christ is best way through it!  His grace, mercy and justice is simply unfathomable.

You seem like a decent, intelligent man as well.  If you needed help I’d help you or your family.  If was stranded and needed help I believe you'd help me or my family.  

Apologetics does not turn a blind eye on anything.  It adds the all important context, explains ideas, helps give theological guidance, but most importantly it gives the reason for having the hope we do in Christ.

It’s why I have 1 Peter 3:15 is under my avatar…..that’s the foundation of apologetics in scripture.

1 Peter 3:15
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

Simply put, God is the essence of righteousness….the bar…..the creator…..the standard…..the law.   He is the greatest possible being there is, was and ever will be.

I was responding to every point you made until I made it here. And I decided at that point it was redundant.

You seem like a good & sincere person even though you follow this amoral doctrine.

[King Shizzo]

I wont play this game with you. Like I said the evils in our world are more shocking and convincing than the positive. That why they make the news.

If it were not for the presence of the divine, evil would have destroyed all life on earth.

I consider dropping the nuclear bomb on Japan cowardice. They were afraid to fight man o man with the crazy Japs.

And Japan bombing Pear Harbor wasn't a cowardly act? When did Samurais start using fighter planes?