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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => History - Stories - and Memories => Topic started by: TPSRPBBW-fan1 on September 22, 2008, 03:28:31 PM
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I keep hearing posts about how this or that contest was fixed.
Here's your chance to elaborate on everything you all consider a conspiracy, since i'm not quite a bodybuilding historian, hopefully someone here with more knowledge than myself can tell us about some bbing controversies
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1980 was an Inside Job :)
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1980 was an Inside Job :)
Whats your take on 9/11?
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Whats your take on 9/11?
whats your take on bodybuilding conspiracies?
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whats your take on bodybuilding conspiracies?
Wolf will get robbed by muscletech dollers and Jay will be crowned Mr O..
DW is the best thing to hit Bodybuilding since Arnold..But it will all come down to politics at the end of the day.
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1972 MR OLYMPIA is still a talking point to this day some 36 years later....everyone has there own veiw, mine is its very possible Sergio entering the NABBA show (the 1971 Universe where he "lost" to Bill Pearl) had to some degree a bearing on the out-come, (prehaps ND could share his veiw on this contest as he comes across as quiet knowledgible) the fixing claims he made in non IFBB mags at the time about Arnold, Weider etc...didn,t help his cause as well, as for the actual contest from my point of view.. it was too close to call if you looked at it objectivley...Sergio was alot fuller though the thighs, was massive and pretty cut all round, while Arnold was pretty cut as well, and if you see the DVD, Arnold on-stage does not look his usual confident self while poseing next to Sergio, that 72 result will go on and on....
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.....A challenge does not get more direct than this on a BB stage.
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What about Harold Poole in the 65, 66 and 67 Mr O's. I heard it was because of race and money for some well known company. Even his loss to Vern Weaver for the AAU Mr. America
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What about Harold Poole in the 65, 66 and 67 Mr O's. I heard it was because of race and money for some well known company. Even his loss to Vern Weaver for the AAU Mr. America
there will always be theory's around about those subjects, it will always be difficult for people to agree on those results from so long ago...(hell its hard to agree on anything now) what is certain is that for the time (1960s) Harold Poole had a Fantastic top level physique..Poole 1965...
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Poole in 2006-2008 with MASSIVE ARMS still!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o
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The 1971 NABBA MR UNIVERSE... BILL PEARL won over SERGIO OLIVA...witch to this day has alot of opinions still divided, without actually being there its Difficult to judge who really was best that day as photos are pretty scarce of the event, and many of the older blokes around back then seem to go with Bill Pearl being more "polished" etc...From the pics Ive seen, older blokes views via correspondence, and the footage on DVD i think SERGIO while not in the best Condition was more MASSIVE and more complete than a very good BILL PEARL.
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More relaxed shots of the DVD footage
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Bills Back.... :)
Sergios Back.... :o
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A very common shot where SERGIO looks average next to BILL... :-\ :-\ :-\
Another not so common shot where SERGIO looks outstanding relaxed... :o :o :o
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If anyone can add anything to the thread please feel free :)
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Poole in 2006-2008 with MASSIVE ARMS still!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o
Does anyone know what happened to Harold Poole? Last I heard he was on life support.
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-Columbu over Padilla, '81 - a joke. Many of the top BBs such as Padilla, Robinson, Mentzer, Szkalak and Fox left the IFBB around that time, or retired due to the decisions. Callendar and Platz were also more deserving of the title than Columbu.
-Oliva being excluded from the '71 Olympia.
-Columbu and Zane winning so much in the late 70s when Nubret, Oliva and Fox were in great shape and felt they weren't going to be given a fair shake. Robinson deserved at least 1 Olympia over Zane during that time. Columbu was clearly not the "world's best built man in '76", but as Nubret has mentioned here, he was one of Weider's boys.
-Some of Yates' wins over various minorities who took turns over various years in being physically better than Yates, including Dillet and Levrone. A late 90s Wheeler also trounces the keg, but that wasn't politics just bad timing in peaking a couple of years too late.
-Pearl over Oliva, NABBA Universe. Oliva clearly had alot more size AND far more pronounced tapers.
-Nubret I believe he wished to ascend to greater heights within either the IFBB political heirarchy, and/or wanted to be an Olympia promoter. In any case he was denied, and never competed in the Olympia after '75 even though he'd clearly have been the favorite against Zane in the late 70s. Instead he founded the rival WABBA.
-Pumping Iron movie version-unlike the book, the movie focused on IFBB BBs and either completely ignored (Oliva) or gave reduced exposure (Nubret, Robinson) to various BBs, while focusing on lesser IFBB BBs. Thus distorting the true competition Schwarzenegger would've faced in fair shows in terms of superior BBs and superior minds relative to some of the duds featured as Arnold's peers in the movie.
-'72 Olympia - less debatable IMO, because they were still very close, within the margin allowed an existing champ, even though Schwarzenegger wasn't at his best. Note that since Schwarzenegger considered that Oliva was the best guy in '72, Schwarzenegger evidentally used that as motivation to be at his best in the following 2 shows, '73 and '74. Also he never showed up again without a tan as he'd done in '72. Sergio didn't show up in '73-'74, most likely believing after the early 70s shows that he would never win no matter what-hence his challenge to Schwarzenegger in the audience at the Mr. International show prior to the '73 Olympia, when Arnold did not accept the challenge in neutral, non-IFBB territory.
A very common shot where SERGIO looks average next to BILL...
In that one shot he looks good but even there he has vrituallyNO tapers in comparison. Oliva's X and V tapers are far more dramatic, coupled with alot more size.
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I still think Poole deserved a least one of the 3 Olympias he competed in. If you see the common decision all these great BB's made was to leave the IFBB. Even though it was the best game in town in so many words. Poole, Sergio, Robbie, Mentzer, Padilla and Nubret. You can only make guys eat shit for so long before they just say the hell with it. Hell even Bill Pearl must have said screw it and hung up his trunks. I am sure Chuck Sipes probably should have done better. I believe Joe Weider was the king maker and if you pissed him off you were done....Look at Kal Szkalak...pissed Joe Weider and was DONE! Took up cycling instead..Bikes that is. He ( Joe Weider) shafted allot of guys as many if not more than he didn't.
In fact didn't Joe steal the likeness of Robbie to use for his own? What about guys like Freddy Ortiz, Warren Fredericks.....oh yea they were Lurie boys silly me. Boyer Coe had to feel cheated too. Anyway if I sound like I am not a Weider fan...... you are very smart because I am not! ::)
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I still think Poole deserved a least one of the 3 Olympias he competed in
Agreed. It's remarkable how few fans acknowledge the clear racial biases over the years. Weider only let minorities win when there were no established, comparable white BB alternatives. That's been the paradigm from the beginning. The difference was magazine and supplement sales, plus a clear preference for articulate BBs who would be good reps for the sport, when everything else was more or less equal relative to other BBs physically. I believe also that the last criteria was what won it for Pearl over Oliva to a conservative, staid british audience at the '71 Universe, not the physical difference.
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-Oliva being excluded from the '71 Olympia.
Can you expand on this?
-Pumping Iron movie version-unlike the book, the movie focused on IFBB BBs and either completely ignored (Oliva) or gave reduced exposure (Nubret, Robinson) to various BBs, while focusing on lesser IFBB BBs. Thus distorting the true competition Schwarzenegger would've faced in fair shows in terms of superior BBs and superior minds relative to some of the duds featured as Arnold's peers in the movie.
Oliva was ignored because he wasn't competing in the '75 Universe or Olympia. Nubret's exposure, I believe, had to do with his supposed late entry only days before the Olympia, to which the producers didn't have much time to get any training scenes in. The story goes that Steve Michalik was to compete in Nubret's place and that they had filmed his scenes instead, but had to delete them, obviously, as he got injured.
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Oliva was ignored because he wasn't competing in the '75 Universe or Olympia. Nubret's exposure, I believe, had to do with his supposed late entry only days before the Olympia, to which the producers didn't have much time to get any training scenes in. The story goes that Steve Michalik was to compete in Nubret's place and that they had filmed his scenes instead, but had to delete them, obviously, as he got injured.
Ignoring Oliva whether he was competing then or not is moot, given that the book featured him. And of course rest assured that he was likely staying away, as he'd done for a couple of years previously following '71 and '72, for justifiably thinking he'd never get a fare shake-true IMO. Weider had every incentive to have Schwarzenegger win every year.
That's why Oliva competed in the Mr. International show, with Weider, Columbu and Schwarzenegger there in the audience to see what his condition would be prior to the Olympia. He challenged Schwarzenegger to come out of the audience and compete on relatively neutral grounds for a change. Schwarzenegger refused the challenge, surprise surprise.
I don't know where you're getting that stuff about Nubret; it's pretty clear there was stuff going on under the radar given that '75 was his last year in the Olympia, factoring in that he could've beaten Columbu in '75 and Zane later. Also, apparrently the story is actually that Ben Weider tried to exclude Nubret from the '75 Olympia 10 days before the show for being overweight, thus Nubret had to diet down on short notice to be allowed to compete. Once again suspect. Nubret's thread on the G&O confirm the ongoing hijinks behind the scenes, even though he's being polite about it.
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-Columbu over Padilla, '81 - a joke. Many of the top BBs such as Padilla, Robinson, Mentzer, Szkalak and Fox left the IFBB around that time, or retired due to the decisions. Callendar and Platz were also more deserving of the title than Columbu.
-Oliva being excluded from the '71 Olympia.
-Columbu and Zane winning so much in the late 70s when Nubret, Oliva and Fox were in great shape and felt they weren't going to be given a fair shake. Robinson deserved at least 1 Olympia over Zane during that time. Columbu was clearly not the "world's best built man in '76", but as Nubret has mentioned here, he was one of Weider's boys.
-Some of Yates' wins over various minorities who took turns over various years in being physically better than Yates, including Dillet and Levrone. A late 90s Wheeler also trounces the keg, but that wasn't politics just bad timing in peaking a couple of years too late.
-Pearl over Oliva, NABBA Universe. Oliva clearly had alot more size AND far more pronounced tapers.
-Nubret I believe he wished to ascend to greater heights within either the IFBB political heirarchy, and/or wanted to be an Olympia promoter. In any case he was denied, and never competed in the Olympia after '75 even though he'd clearly have been the favorite against Zane in the late 70s. Instead he founded the rival WABBA.
-Pumping Iron movie version-unlike the book, the movie focused on IFBB BBs and either completely ignored (Oliva) or gave reduced exposure (Nubret, Robinson) to various BBs, while focusing on lesser IFBB BBs. Thus distorting the true competition Schwarzenegger would've faced in fair shows in terms of superior BBs and superior minds relative to some of the duds featured as Arnold's peers in the movie.
-'72 Olympia - less debatable IMO, because they were still very close, within the margin allowed an existing champ, even though Schwarzenegger wasn't at his best. Note that since Schwarzenegger considered that Oliva was the best guy in '72, Schwarzenegger evidentally used that as motivation to be at his best in the following 2 shows, '73 and '74. Also he never showed up again without a tan as he'd done in '72. Sergio didn't show up in '73-'74, most likely believing after the early 70s shows that he would never win no matter what-hence his challenge to Schwarzenegger in the audience at the Mr. International show prior to the '73 Olympia, when Arnold did not accept the challenge in neutral, non-IFBB territory.
In that one shot he looks good but even there he has vrituallyNO tapers in comparison. Oliva's X and V tapers are far more dramatic, coupled with alot more size.
Big call some of the comments you have made in this post of yours, and while i can see where you are coming from in a couple of your takes on the events mentioned above this is my take.
In 1981 going on the body being judged as a whole my take is Chris dickerson was more Complete as in Presentation, posing, Physquie,etc than Franco, Danny and the rest of the top blokes, while Danny was complete and ripped he looked small and was dawfed next to near everybody...Dickerson included...if your talking about a guy standing by himself on stage...Dannys your winner, Roys calves were no good at that level, Platzs legs were still too big compared to his upper body even at his best in 1981.
Ill always rate Sergio over Bill pearl however, Its clear why Sergio wasn,t allowed to Compete in the 1971 Mr O and not a Consiraciey as people have pointed out.
Sergio was Contracted to enter IFBB Contests at the time...He chose to compete in the NABBA Mr Universe in 1971 showed up in Less than ripped condation (witch was common for Sergio) and got beaten by Bill Pearl...Then thought he'd just pop back into the IFBB and Compete @ the 1971 IFBB Mr O...no Conspiraciey there..what is a little odd is that Weider allowed Sergio to "guess pose" @ the show in Paris while arnold won "uncontested"...odd but hardly a Conspiriciey.
You mention some of Dorian's wins were qestionable over physically better guys like Dillet and Kevin L, as well as Flex in the late 90s....in 1993 Dillet was as impressive as he ever was in terms of shape, size, cuts (with the possible exception of his 1996 shape)...However judging the body as a COMPLETE package in 1993, 94, 96 etc..in terms of Proportion, hardness, dencity,COMPLETENESS.... Paul was never going to beat Dorian with his back issue's, clumsey presentation, posing, etc...because paul had a Better V taper, bigger shoulders and arms, that is not going to beat Dorian who at the time was very complete from head to toe, same thing with Kevin who looked outstanding in 1992, bigger (but somewhat softer) in 1993...Kevin looked outstanding however his back and calves were as a general rule of thumb a little suspect compared to his massive Shoulders, arms... again from head to toe Dorian based on Completness of the Physquie was more Complete than Kevin, and as far as Flex goes...Flex was a better, shaper, cuts etc...BB in the early 1990s....so im a little surprised you mentioned Flexed peaked in the late 1990s ??? ???..as most people in BB know Flex's physquie while bigger looking in the late 90s was suspect as hell in those shoulders, arms and other place's...Flex like Sergio many years before him seemed to peak well at lesser shows than the O...but show up at the Most Importent Contest the Olympia...in less than Peaked condation and lose... then everyone jumps up and down that Flex should of "beaten" Dorian ??? ??? in his 1993 AC shape...He'd be real hard to beat...but he never-ever showed up close to that condation at the O etheir when Dorian was numba 1 or against Ronnie in 1998 or 1999...no conspiraciey's there in my veiw. lots of people always go on about this guy having Bigger, better, arms, shoulders, chest, better V Tapers etc..than Dorian...the reason they ALL lost against Dorian is More than Clear...Dorian was more COMPLETE than all of them..and when his ripped his bicep...having a ripped bicep is not the same as a weak back, weak calves etc, the only guy that had the potental to Beat Dorain i feel at his best back then was Flex in 1993-96...back then Flex was COMPLETE without the OIL rubbish that he clearly was injecting into his shoulders and else where in the Late 90s (1999 to be more presize)
Nubert was not Complete as most in BB know in the mid 70s etc...Frank zane was...Zanes legs while not big were in PROPORTION with his upper body etc, and when it came to complete package as in Posing, presentation, dencity, proportion of both top and bottom....Frank was going to beat Serge...if we were judgeing the WHOLE BODY not who had "better" bodyparts...Robbie seemed to have a hard time nailing his Condation in 1978 he won the Over 200lb divison Mr Olympia...but lost the overall to a better condationed Frank Zane...same thing with Mike Mentzer in 1979 Mike was bigger, more impressive looking etc...but less condationed = Frank zane the winner... so i don,t see any Conspirraciey's in ANY of Frank Zane's wins in 1977,78,79....O.K now thats my 2 cents... ill put on my Bullet proof Vest and Helmet.... ;D ;D ;D
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Big call some of the comments you have made in this post of yours, and while i can see where you are coming from in a couple of your takes on the events mentioned above this is my take.
In 1981 going on the body being judged as a whole my take is Chris dickerson was more Complete as in Presentation, posing, Physquie,etc than Franco, Danny and the rest of the top blokes, while Danny was complete and ripped he looked dawfed next to near everybody...Dickerson included...if your talking about a guy standing by himself on stage...Dannys your winner, Roys calves were no good at that level, Platzs legs were still too big compared to his upper body even at his best in 1981.
All it takes is to blow up one of your examples to see that you're unable to effectively rebut my points. The weak grammar doesn't help either.
Your example of Dickerson actually reinforces my point, whether you know it or not. It doesn't matter who you single out as the winner, bottom line Columbu wasn't it.
FYI I trained in the same NYC gym alongside Dickerson a couple of years before those shows, and have seen him socially from time to time. No way in hell could he beat Padilla if they were both in good shape. Padilla had very pronounced advantages:
-Outrageous symmetry-Padilla may be the most symmetrical BB of all time.
-Muscle size
-Aesthetics.
The winner was clearly Padilla, most people in discussing the 81 debacle bring up Padilla not Dickerson. 81 is widely considered the biggest debacle in the history of the Olympia.
Don't bother with any further rebutals, both because you're ineffective and because i made those points in expressing an informed opinion, uininterested in discussing.
Padilla seen here making Yates and Momo look like 3rd and 2nd place-yet even in this show he was "beaten" by suspect scoring.
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All it takes is to blow up one of your examples to see that you're unable to effectively rebut my points. The weak grammar doesn't help either.
Your example of Dickerson actually reinforces my point, whether you know it or not. It doesn't matter who you single out as the winner, bottom line Columbu wasn't it.
FYI I trained in the same NYC gym alongside Dickerson a couple of years before those shows, and have seen him socially from time to time. No way in hell could he beat Padilla if they were both in good shape. Padilla had very pronounced advantages:
-Outrageous symmetry-Padilla may be the most symmetrical BB of all time.
-Muscle size
-Aesthetics.
The winner was clearly Padilla, most people in discussing the 81 debacle bring up Padilla not Dickerson. 81 is widely considered the biggest debacle in the history of the Olympia.
Don't bother with any further rebutals, both because you're ineffective and because i made those points in expressing an informed opinion, uininterested in discussing.
Padilla seen here making Yates and Momo look like 3rd and 2nd place-yet even in this show he was "beaten" by suspect scoring.
Whao!!!!!!!!!....didn,t think someone as IMPORTENT and WISE such as yourself with over 16,000 post's ;) would respond with such a Personal rebutal.....i wasn,t going to answer back ;D ;D ;D..However...when someone says... i made those points in expressing an informed opinion, unintrested in discussing...what your really saying is because ive seen Chris dickerson Back in the day...and im Guessing you havn,t, so i know MORE than you Bud..your opinion doesn,t matter because ive seen him... :) O.K so because ive seen Lee Haney onstage in italy in 1989, as well as countless seminars etc...Sonny Schmit, Dorian yates etc...My opinion witch of course is now a INFORMED opinion has more weight than say someone who hasn,t seen the above in person in the flesh...So why should i discuss the topic with those here at Getbig who havn,t seen or talked with that lot in person?...Simple...because me like YOU wether YOU realise it or not are not ABOVE the other's here who have a right to a OPINION...because at the end of the day thats all they are here on a BB website...you have your Favourites and so do i and everyone else here...when you say Danny may be the most symmetrical BB of all time...i really do wonder how you came to that conclusion ???..Outrageous symmetry :o Aesthetic's :o...however once more thats your opinion, my opinion is Chris Dickerson was more symmetrical and had better Aesthetics than the very short, stumpy hard as nails (1981 and 1990 NOC) Padilla.
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Chris Dickerson was more symmetrical and had better Aesthetics than the very short, stumpy hard as nails (1981 and 1990 NOC) Padilla.
Dickerson was symmetrical and aesthetically pleasing, but he wasn't exactly tall himself. Calling Padilla stumpy...? Belknap and Franco were stumpy, Danny had flow and pleasing lines to his physique, much like Dickerson. Both were great, IMO.
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Dickerson was symmetrical and aesthetically pleasing, but he wasn't exactly tall himself. Calling Padilla stumpy...? Belknap and Franco were stumpy, Danny had flow and pleasing lines to his physique, much like Dickerson. Both were great, IMO.
Calling Padilla stumpy and not Dicerson, when it was Padilla with superior lines, indicates that he's talking out his ass.
Hope this helps.
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:) Padilla had superior LINES than Dickerson :).....O.K......pumpster!
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..... :)
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1981.... :)