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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: dj181 on February 09, 2013, 06:50:38 AM
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that as one grows progressively bigger and stronger that one must train less (less often and with less volume) in order to continually grow bigger and stronger
has anyone here applied this concept for themselves and experienced what Mentzer says?
listen to him here @ 4:08-7:10 and especially from 5:55-6:27
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that as one grows progressively bigger and stronger that one must train less (less often and with less volume) in order to continually grow bigger and stronger
has anyone here applied this concept for themselves and experienced what Mentzer says?
listen to him here @ 4:08-7:10 and especially from 5:55-6:27
This is correct if you start out doing 100 lb squats for 10reps then get 350lbs just a example will it not take longer to recover, answer is yes. Recovery ability is limited to genetics.
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I train each muscle group less often than when i started. Volume depends on what "intensity techniques" i use. If i train with Tri sets and supersets i can use 2-3 sets per exercise but i still use at least 3 exercises per muscle group. I think you can raise intensity and cut down sets as Mentzer did..however you still need a good Exercise selection.. just my 2 cents Bro... ;D
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This is correct if you start out doing 100 lb squats for 10reps then get 350lbs just a example will it not take longer to recover, answer is yes. Recovery ability is limited to genetics.
so have you applied this principal within your own training routine and experienced what Mentzer says?
and if yes, tell us exactly what you did
IMO, there is over-training, but there is also under-training and there's a fine line btw the 2
basically, one needs to train enough, but not too much
but this concept of training less as one get bigger and stronger is rather revolutionary and hardly any fucking one does this >:(
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so have you applied this principal within your own training routine and experienced what Mentzer says?
and if yes, tell us exactly what you did
IMO, there is over-training, but there is also under-training and there's a fine line btw the 2
basically, one needs to train enough, but not too much
but this concept of training less as one get bigger and stronger is rather revolutionary and hardly any fucking one does this >:(
I went from 4 days a week to 3 then 2 doing weak points first. Recovery ability doesnt increase. Bench, barbell rows and lying triceps ext Day 1. Rest 4 days then calf raise, Squats, military press, barbell curls Day 2. Depends on the weak points work them first, my calves sucked for me so I prioritized. Arms need to be worked last unless you just do them alone they are the weak link to upper body exercises ie arms will give out before chest on the bench. My arms always responded so I worked them last. Contest training drop cals and a little cardio good to go. However genes rule.
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posted
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I went from 4 days a week to 3 then 2 doing weak points first. Recovery ability doesnt increase. Bench, barbell rows and lying triceps ext Day 1. Rest 4 days then calf raise, Squats, military press, barbell curls Day 2. Depends on the weak points work them first, my calves sucked for me so I prioritized. Arms need to be worked last unless you just do them alone they are the weak link to upper body exercises ie arms will give out before chest on the bench. My arms always responded so I worked them last. Contest training drop cals and a little cardio good to go. However genes rule.
interesting
i'm basically doing those exercises that you did, except i do dips instead of bench and chins as well as rows and no tri ext
also, i just started doing weighted crunches coz my girl said she likes it when the abs "pop" out 8)
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I assume because your tri's are pretty good, dips will hit them decently.
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I assume because your tri's are pretty good, dips will hit them decently.
yep
my tris and my lats are my best bodyparts
and i guess that my delts are better than i think they are
my bis and calves suckass though
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as i get older i avoid failure, i stop the set before the form goes shitty. no more injury, less cns fatigue, and more solid progress. but the frequency is the same.
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as i get older i avoid failure, i stop the set before the form goes shitty. no more injury, less cns fatigue, and more solid progress. but the frequency is the same.
This equals no progress. If you do movements slow and controlled injury will not be a problem, momentum, bouncing/cheating on moments does cause injury.
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as i get older i avoid failure, i stop the set before the form goes shitty. no more injury, less cns fatigue, and more solid progress. but the frequency is the same.
what do you mean by "more solid progress"?
muscle size increase?
training load increase?
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This equals no progress. If you do movements slow and controlled injury will not be a problem, momentum, bouncing/cheating on moments does cause injury.
true but Bill Pearl always said leave the Gym with still some Gas in the Tank...he did not train to failure but trained high volume and for me he was a class above any Heavy duty trainer or AJ...
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true but Bill Pearl always said leave the Gym with still some Gas in the Tank...he did not train to failure but trained high volume and for me he was a class above any Heavy duty trainer or AJ...
did he increase his training loads with this method?
if yes then he got bigger muscles, and if no... then he only maintained his current condition
NO ONE GETS BIGGER WITHOUT INCREASED TRAINING LOADS, it's in-fucking-possible to do so, and if someone says he has then he is a liar or a lunatic ;D
AJ APPROVED statement right there ;)
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Bill Pearl was a strong man.. and AJ said a lot of things when the day was long. he contradicted himself after he sold his Nautilus company being quoted as saying you can not duplicate free weights, his high pitch sales talk some years before was totally the reverse. Take AJ with a pinch of salt. Anyway how come you donīt train like say Greg plitt or the Fitness models you want to look like. maybe some here wonīt like Greg Plitt but he trains a 5 day split with volume.
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I do not dislike AJ but i shall have to try and find the article..made me smile. Mate all these Gurus said do this and that...Gironda too. If you want to do it his way thatīs your thing. I mean Bill Pearl was a multi Universe winner and later did some strong man stunts so he was very strong and yes lifted heavy too... but i am biased to Bill Pearl as you are to AJ... ;D
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my whole point is this....
a muscle will only get larger when you increase the weight on the bar
i don't care how the fuck you do it or the method you choose to do it, but that is REQUIRED no fucking ifs, ands, or buts about it
p.s. my quads and ass and lats are bigger now and guess what?
my squats weights and my row and chin weights have shot way the fuck up
coincidence? nah... i don't think so
up next is calves, i will increase my calf raise training loads over the next few weeks and my calves will get bigger exactly because of this ;)
so let's say that i kept using the same weight on my calf raises, would my caves get bigger then?
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A good web site for you dj...read the article from Casey Butt "Rule 2" what AJ said...however some good stuff in the web site.
http://www.irontruth.co.uk/rulesofproductiveweighttraining.html
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A good web site for you dj...read the article from Casey Butt "Rule 2" what AJ said...however some good stuff in the web site.
http://www.irontruth.co.uk/rulesofproductiveweighttraining.html
great article
especially "Rule 14" ;)
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Dj...I thought you would like it so I sent it. Some nice articles.
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great article
especially "Rule 14" ;)
Exactly progression is king, make sure to read #18 as well.
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Glad you boys like it.
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Glad you boys like it.
thanks for that article brother :)
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samir....ferrigno.....ar nold.....franco.....pear l....ect
never trained to failure.......and they all developed fantastic physiques.
heavy duty training is one way to train.....but not the only way to train.
imho
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Mentzer probably wishes he hadn't gone all heavy intensity so he could still be around
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Mentzer probably wishes he hadn't gone all heavy intensity so he could still be around
1980 fucked with his mind, lost his dad, his girl and lost the Mr O so you take all of that who wouldn't go crazy?
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lots of people have tragadies in their lives, most of them cope with the losses and few go crazey
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that as one grows progressively bigger and stronger that one must train less (less often and with less volume) in order to continually grow bigger and stronger
has anyone here applied this concept for themselves and experienced what Mentzer says?
listen to him here @ 4:08-7:10 and especially from 5:55-6:27
Even though I never trained using Mentzer'z methods going by my personal experience I think hes right. Recently I've been feeling really drained after my workouts and even had weights on a few lifts drop. And all this mind you still using a test booster (actual testosterone ;D) so when I used to hear people say only guys on steroids can train for hours on end I can now see that it's just not true.
Mike goes into a few things that you should do in order to compensate and I think one of that he leaves out is to simply increase doses....I'm sure that's what he'd do after dropping an exercise, taking an extra rest day etc. did not work anymore.
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what do you mean by "more solid progress"?
muscle size increase?
training load increase?
ive been a gym kamikaze for years, do or die attitude, at any cost. so now cheating bouncing etc are out. whats the point of training so hard for 3 month, get injuried, stop training for one month and start from zero at the begining of the fifh month. gym are full of guy like that, making progress and getting injuried. i want year round progress. so i take my time, i periodize my Training. the extra rep on bench with the bar bouncing and the left arm locked five second after the right is useless, the extra rep on deadlift with a shaky lockout is useless. the extrA rep on squat which looks like a good morning is useless. maybe you look like true iron warior, but after few year you spend more time on recovering from injury than on efficient training.
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More weight+ good form + year round training = progress
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The article Donny posted is one of the best I have read on natural bodybuilding. This is truly the stuff that you learn after many years of consistent, hard, and PRODUCTIVE training. The article is long but I recommend reading the whole thing not just the main bullet points.
If you are not making progress in the gym and in the mirror, read, read, and re-read that article.
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1980 fucked with his mind, lost his dad, his girl and lost the Mr O so you take all of that who wouldn't go crazy?
He lost his mind from abusing amphetamines. He wrote that he knew of the mental dangers of amphetamine use but he was to smart to fall for that trap. He also wrote that he was scared what steroids did to his mind too. When using steroids you feel confident, aggressive, and have a sense of well being. When you stop using you feel timid, nervous and depressed. Combine that with the known mental turmoil of amphetamines you have a plan for disaster.
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More weight+ good form + year round training = progress
Bill Pearl would agree with you. He wrote in effect that what's the use of training so hard that you burn out quick and need to stop training all the time. If you train so hard all the time then training will become so hellish you won't be able to continue. Runners, Olympic lifters and power lifters don't red line the tach so to speak every time they train. Why should a bodybuilder?
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Bill Pearl would agree with you. He wrote in effect that what's the use of training so hard that you burn out quick and need to stop training all the time. If you train so hard all the time then training will become so hellish you won't be able to continue. Runners, Olympic lifters and power lifters don't red line the tach so to speak every time they train. Why should a bodybuilder?
yes ...you want to look forward to your next workout and not burned out and chronic injuries.
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He lost his mind from abusing amphetamines. He wrote that he knew of the mental dangers of amphetamine use but he was to smart to fall for that trap. He also wrote that he was scared what steroids did to his mind too. When using steroids you feel confident, aggressive, and have a sense of well being. When you stop using you feel timid, nervous and depressed. Combine that with the known mental turmoil of amphetamines you have a plan for disaster.
Good point and the other factors as well drove him over the edge, strange that Ray died the next day as well.
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He lost his mind from abusing amphetamines. He wrote that he knew of the mental dangers of amphetamine use but he was to smart to fall for that trap. He also wrote that he was scared what steroids did to his mind too. When using steroids you feel confident, aggressive, and have a sense of well being. When you stop using you feel timid, nervous and depressed. Combine that with the known mental turmoil of amphetamines you have a plan for disaster.
Everyone will react differently to any substance. I actually felt better coming off steroids...happier.
EDIT: Oh God I felt really tired the first few weeks though now that I remember.
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Bill Pearl would agree with you. He wrote in effect that what's the use of training so hard that you burn out quick and need to stop training all the time. If you train so hard all the time then training will become so hellish you won't be able to continue. Runners, Olympic lifters and power lifters don't red line the tach so to speak every time they train. Why should a bodybuilder?
the burnout...in the past i used to dl and squat hard every week, burn out quickly, sometime injury. legs have good recovery capacity, your lower back is the weak link. an injury is at least 4 week to recover, i remember a major lower back burnout of 6 week, i was unable to squat or dl heavy. i wasnt injuried but my lumbar were fried although my legs were ok. a natural should avoid burn out. even if youre repin 400 on squat sometine a light maintenance workout like 5 set of 5 with 275 wil be more benefic than trying to rep 400 with a tired lower back.
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the burnout...in the past i used to dl and squat hard every week, burn out quickly, sometime injury. legs have good recovery capacity, your lower back is the weak link. an injury is at least 4 week to recover, i remember a major lower back burnout of 6 week, i was unable to squat or dl heavy. i wasnt injuried but my lumbar were fried although my legs were ok. a natural should avoid burn out. even if youre repin 400 on squat sometine a light maintenance workout like 5 set of 5 with 275 wil be more benefic than trying to rep 400 with a tired lower back.
Fuck up the lower back it stays with you for life.
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Everyone will react differently to any substance. I actually felt better coming off steroids...happier.
EDIT: Oh God I felt really tired the first few weeks though now that I remember.
Most will feel exactly what I posted when using a lot of androgen steroids. Most that use injectables it takes longer and is more gradual to get out of your system. It's a question of dose too. Just being off cycle for a month is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about hard use for a contest then not using for 6 months. Most lose so much muscle and also feel like hell mentally.
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Good point and the other factors as well drove him over the edge, strange that Ray died the next day as well.
I guess they both had bad hearts and Ray with kidney problems. One can speculate how much smoking, drugs and genetic predisposition contributed to their death. It is really strange how Ray died right after Mike. I guess we will never know. I was the biggest Mike Mentzer fan back in the day. It's tragic how their life was so short.
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I guess they both had bad hearts and Ray with kidney problems. One can speculate how much smoking, drugs and genetic predisposition contributed to their death. It is really strange how Ray died right after Mike. I guess we will never know. I was the biggest Mike Mentzer fan back in the day. It's tragic how their life was so short.
As well, I trained with Mike once at Venice late 90's sad story for them both.
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Most will feel exactly what I posted when using a lot of androgen steroids. Most that use injectables it takes longer and is more gradual to get out of your system. It's a question of dose too. Just being off cycle for a month is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about hard use for a contest then not using for 6 months. Most lose so much muscle and also feel like hell mentally.
You're right oldtimer...the longer you're on, the larger the doses the bigger the crash...no doubt about it.
Wrt my comment I was on for about six months but using just little baby doses. I'm sure it would've been a lot different had I been using mentzer like doses which is what your original post was about.
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For me, strength gains have always been more of a side effect....placing too much emphasis on getting stronger every workout seems like a great way to injure yourself.
Limits...we all have them whether on or off.
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I'm a bodybuilding fan and I have been lifting weights forever. It's sad but true that this is a sub culture of a sport that is based on drugs. No drugs would equal no sport. Please don't tell me about the natural contests that have trouble selling out a small high school auditorium.
I have found some really great people involved in bodybuilding but it also attracts so many people on the fringe of society. It seems so many who bodybuild are fans of bodybuilding drugs. They rationalize that all involved in sport use drugs to justify why they use steroids to look muscular. I really think something is really disturbing that anyone would risk health to temporarily look fantastic while on drugs. How could you be proud of your "achievement" when you know without the drug assist you would look like crap?
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yes, coming off big doses will give an epic,epic crash.but if mentaly prepared and not giving a fuck, itll be all good.
coming of hrt dose no matter how long been on, will be smooth.still shit feeling, but smooth.esp the first couple weeks, the muscle gonna look awesome as the water under skin goes away, face becomes thinner etc.then after a month or so, itll be bye bye to volume.
as for what this liar mentzer says, i cant believe dj181 believes a single word of it.progressive getting stronger, my balls.
you get stronger the first 2 years and then thats it.then on gear you get stronger than natty but even that has its limits.
so what are you supposed to do to get bigger? get weaker :D
i've never ever been very consistant with my training, as i start and then stop for years and then start again etc. so i've never really acheived my max potential
also, i just recently started calf training and i plan to load up the calf raise weight which will give me bigger calves, just you wait and see ;)
p.s. the only muscle i have ever trained hard and long was chest
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I'm a bodybuilding fan and I have been lifting weights forever. It's sad but true that this is a sub culture of a sport that is based on drugs. No drugs would equal no sport. Please don't tell me about the natural contests that have trouble selling out a small high school auditorium.
I have found some really great people involved in bodybuilding but it also attracts so many people on the fringe of society. It seems so many who bodybuild are fans of bodybuilding drugs. They rationalize that all involved in sport use drugs to justify why they use steroids to look muscular. I really think something is really disturbing that anyone would risk health to temporarily look fantastic while on drugs. How could you be proud of your "achievement" when you know without the drug assist you would look like crap?
Some people just won't understand why we do it....just like how I don't understand when someone tells me how bad they are while at the same time they're getting shit faced every night and or doing recreational drugs. Like drugs and alcohol are good for your body somehow lol
And it has nothing to do about how you look with or without them for me. It's the fact that the body has its limits and if you're serious about progressing its just something that has to be done.
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so what are you supposed to do to get bigger? get weaker :D
i've never ever been very consistant with my training, as i start and then stop for years and then start again etc. so i've never really acheived my max potential
also, i just recently started calf training and i plan to load up the calf raise weight which will give me bigger calves, just you wait and see ;)
p.s. the only muscle i have ever trained hard and long was chest
Just like you can't get lean eating way too many calories the opposite has to be true for growth.
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Look at the biggest pros. Coleman, Yates, Kai Greene, Victor, Cutler, Levrone, Cormier all of those guys are strong as hell it's not a coincidence.
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Look at the biggest pros. Coleman, Yates, Kai Greene, Victor, Cutler, Levrone, Cormier all of those guys are strong as hell it's not a coincidence.
Since you seem to know more about the strength of these guys who are the "weak" ones then?
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Just like you can't get lean eating way too many calories the opposite has to be true for growth.
exactly
who gives a shit about HIT, weider, Max-OT what matters is this...
more weight on the bar=bigger muscles
i never said HIT/Mentzer is the best or only way to train (although it is for me)
the best way to train is whatever method allows one to progressively add weight to the bar (that is if you are training for bigger muscles)
if you want to train to be ultra fit and in outstanding condition then of course you must train differently
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Since you seem to know more about the strength of these guys who are the "weak" ones then?
Heath, Flex, Ray, Dillett could have been a monster if he didn't try like a pussy, you think it's an accident he had a very mediocre back compared to the other guys. All of the guys I just mentioned got by on unbelievable genetics.
Oh by the way, you wanna see what Ray could have looked like if he trained heavier, look at Dexter.
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Heath, Flex, Ray, Dillett could have been a monster if he didn't try like a pussy, you think it's an accident he had a very mediocre back compared to the other guys. All of the guys I just mentioned got by on unbelievable genetics.
Oh by the way, you wanna see what Ray could have looked like if he trained heavier, look at Dexter.
I don't know yev but all those guys you mentioned are pretty big to me. There's no way I would be able to tell who was stronger if you were just to post pics would you?
dj181... I think you have to train a way that allows you to keep at it for a long time and if that means hit for you than by all means keep at it. The weight increases will come in due time but if you have structural problems or weak joints/ligaments/tendons etc focusing on maximum weight is a recipe for disaster. As you get bigger and stronger you may have to change the way you train....worry about that when you get there...listen to your body.
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yeah.. you got to listen to your body. Everyone is diffrent and so is every training method and principle.
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I don't know yev but all those guys you mentioned are pretty big to me. There's no way I would be able to tell who was stronger if you were just to post pics would you?
C'mon man you're telling me you can't see the size and density difference between Coleman and Heath, Yates and Dillet, Dex and Shawn Ray. How about the fact that Levrone and Cormier both weighed 20lbs more on stage than Flex even though Flex was taller.
All of these guys are genetic freaks, of course they will all be big and look great. But there is a very clear difference between those that pushed their training weights up, and those that just went through the motions just getting a pump.
Train the way you wanna train, no one will tell you otherwise. I just don't like it when a member like dj181 who has the right idea, has people trying to convince him he is wrong.
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It's not about if one guy is stronger than the next. It's about which guy is stronger than he was 5 years ago that tells the difference.
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C'mon man you're telling me you can't see the size and density difference between Coleman and Heath, Yates and Dillet, Dex and Shawn Ray. How about the fact that Levrone and Cormier both weighed 20lbs more on stage than Flex even though Flex was taller.
All of these guys are genetic freaks, of course they will all be big and look great. But there is a very clear difference between those that pushed their training weights up, and those that just went through the motions just getting a pump.
Train the way you wanna train, no one will tell you otherwise. I just don't like it when a member like dj181 who has the right idea, has people trying to convince him he is wrong.
It's not about if one guy is stronger than the next. It's about which guy is stronger than he was 5 years ago that tells the difference.
It's a little hard for me to compare physiques...especially given different genetics, eras, and drugs but you saying had shawn ray trained heavier he'd look exactly like dexter is reaching pretty far. Don't know where you buy a crystal ball like that. Regardless, to me Shawn looked better than any of the guys you listed (subjective I know) and lets apply him to your last point which I can definitely agree with.
I'm 100% sure shawn did get stronger as he grew bigger without a doubt. These guys would go to extreme lengths to gain an edge over the next guy...why would he be a pussy in the gym if he seriously thought that was the difference between 1st and 2nd place. What do you know that Shawn Ray didn't?
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How much stronger can you get if you have been lifting for 7 plus years? Keep banging you head against the wall trying to add 10lbs to a lift?
A good goal is to try to get stronger through volume. Increasing what you can lift for 4 sets of 10 or 5 sets of 12. Trying to get stronger for that one set to failure will get you to a sticking point quick if you are an experience trainer. Increasing your muscular endurance will build muscle and will carry you further before burn out.
Training to failure for one set or low sets is a valid tool to be used in lifting. It shouldn't be the only tool used.
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It's a little hard for me to compare physiques...especially given different genetics, eras, and drugs but you saying had shawn ray trained heavier he'd look exactly like dexter is reaching pretty far. Don't know where you buy a crystal ball like that. Regardless, to me Shawn looked better than any of the guys you listed (subjective I know) and lets apply him to your last point which I can definitely agree with.
I'm 100% sure shawn did get stronger as he grew bigger without a doubt. These guys would go to extreme lengths to gain an edge over the next guy...why would he be a pussy in the gym if he seriously thought that was the difference between 1st and 2nd place. What do you know that Shawn Ray didn't?
And I can guarantee you that it was during this time period that he made the most of his size gains. Do I know for sure whether or not Shawn would look like Dex if he trained differently? No. But it's a pretty good comparison between him and Dex since they are both about the same height. Not to mention if I remeber correctly Dex turned pro as bantamweight. What I do know is that the guys with the most muscle mass on their frames that are at the elite IFBB level all pushed their training poundages. Compare Ronnie's first DVD to the Unbelievable or COR and see the difference in the training poundages. When you get to the elite level in IFBB, everyone is abusing drugs, everyone is a genetic freak, and everyone will look better than the 99% of the gym rats out there.
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i've never ever seen a guy get bigger muscles without getting stronger
and i come from a gym that had some elite level top ranked powerlifters in it and also Mike Francios trained at my gym back in the day, so let's just say that i've seen and been around some of the best, but sadly one of those best wasn't me ;D
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How much stronger can you get if you have been lifting for 7 plus years? Keep banging you head against the wall trying to add 10lbs to a lift?
A good goal is to try to get stronger through volume. Increasing what you can lift for 4 sets of 10 or 5 sets of 12. Trying to get stronger for that one set to failure will get you to a sticking point quick if you are an experience trainer. Increasing your muscular endurance will build muscle and will carry you further before burn out.
Training to failure for one set or low sets is a valid tool to be used in lifting. It shouldn't be the only tool used.
If you are benching 275 for 4 sets of 10, and a year and half later you are benching 315 for 4 sets of 10 you have gotten stronger.
It doesn't have to be one all out set. Hell, even if you are doing something like squats for 4 sets of 10 with 315 and 3 minute rest periods, and you are able to cut those down to 30 seconds with the same weight reps and sets, you have gotten stronger.
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i will put it simply Heavy duty Training Is Heavy Duty Burn Out.
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i will put it simply Heavy duty Training Is Heavy Duty Burn Out.
well man, if you apply it correctly, by inserting extra rest days as you get bigger and stronger, then burn out should be avoided
and honestly, in my own case, i can't do that, coz i'm a compulsive individual, and it's near impossible for me to rest so much :-\
but someone with a sane mind should be able to do it without much problems
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well man, if you apply it correctly, by inserting extra rest days as you get bigger and stronger, then burn out should be avoided
and honestly, in my own case, i can't do that, coz i'm a compulsive individual, and it's near impossible for me to rest so much :-\
but someone with a sane mind should be able to do it without much problems
dJ i like you...because you follow what you think is right for you.
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dJ i like you...because you follow what you think is right for you.
thanks man :)
i like to think of myself as a true individual and one of my mottos is.... "I don't follow... I LEAD" ;D
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thanks man :)
i like to think of myself as a true individual and one of my mottos is.... "I don't follow... I LEAD" ;D
my Father said to me,"be yourself" i think i live by that.
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dJ i like you...because you follow what you think is right for you.
Stark does too. Does that mean you like him as well?
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Stark does too. Does that mean you like him as well?
who is Stark ?
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C'mon man you're telling me you can't see the size and density difference between Coleman and Heath, Yates and Dillet, Dex and Shawn Ray. How about the fact that Levrone and Cormier both weighed 20lbs more on stage than Flex even though Flex was taller.
All of these guys are genetic freaks, of course they will all be big and look great. But there is a very clear difference between those that pushed their training weights up, and those that just went through the motions just getting a pump.
Train the way you wanna train, no one will tell you otherwise. I just don't like it when a member like dj181 who has the right idea, has people trying to convince him he is wrong.
Shawn Ray trained rather heavy.......150 pound dumbbell inclines and he also curled 80 pound dumbbells. Dexter trained with pretty heavy weights as well.
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And I can guarantee you that it was during this time period that he made the most of his size gains. Do I know for sure whether or not Shawn would look like Dex if he trained differently? No. But it's a pretty good comparison between him and Dex since they are both about the same height. Not to mention if I remeber correctly Dex turned pro as bantamweight. What I do know is that the guys with the most muscle mass on their frames that are at the elite IFBB level all pushed their training poundages. Compare Ronnie's first DVD to the Unbelievable or COR and see the difference in the training poundages. When you get to the elite level in IFBB, everyone is abusing drugs, everyone is a genetic freak, and everyone will look better than the 99% of the gym rats out there.
Yev, for a natural you seem to know a hell of a lot about these roided up chemical experiments but I still think you're putting too much importance on the look they achieve from what you've seen in a few training videos. It's much more complex than just the training aspect at that level...you should read up on different effects of the drugs used in bodybuilding if you haven't already. Really interesting stuff.
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i've never ever seen a guy get bigger muscles without getting stronger
and i come from a gym that had some elite level top ranked powerlifters in it and also Mike Francios trained at my gym back in the day, so let's just say that i've seen and been around some of the best, but sadly one of those best wasn't me ;D
Yeah....no way around it really. I wish I could grow and stay weak....my joints would love it.
Shawn Ray trained rather heavy.......150 pound dumbbell inclines and he also curled 80 pound dumbbells. Dexter trained with pretty heavy weights as well.
Seems decent enough to me.
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Yev, for a natural you seem to know a hell of a lot about these roided up chemical experiments but I still think you're putting too much importance on the look they achieve from what you've seen in a few training videos. It's much more complex than just the training aspect at that level...you should read up on different effects of the drugs used in bodybuilding if you haven't already. Really interesting stuff.
I am not putting an emphasis on their training as the result of how they look in general, I am highliting the differences in their training in relation to how they look compared to each other.
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Yeah....no way around it really. I wish I could grow and stay weak..
Why are we going back and forth about this then, this is all I am trying to say here.
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Why are we going back and forth about this then, this is all I am trying to say here.
ahaha I don't disagree with you at all it's just wrt the mutants...imo theres a lot more to it than bigger=stronger. But I guess I have to take your word for it since I don't watch training videos.
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Yeah....no way around it really. I wish I could grow and stay weak....my joints would love it.
times a gazillion
lifting heavy, especially on legs, sucks fucking ass >:( >:( >:(
and speaking of leg training, my girl is quite happy with my newly gained muscle particularly in my delts, arms, and torso, but she told me that i still need more ass >:( >:( >:(
i think that we're gonna have some struggles about this, but i suppose that i should work on giving her a hot ass, since she has a hot ass for me, as that's only fair right? ;D
in fact, i may just start a new thread asking for ass training advices :P
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at one time mike sais the opposite almost of what was beleived to work . but bodybuilding is not a scientific endeavor only . if so exercice physiologist . would sport great physique themselves . mike wnated to inject science and thinking in exercice . he was against suplementation too . most of the time .
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not bad for a lifetime natty i'd say ;)
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not bad for a lifetime natty i'd say ;)
Boom!!
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lifetime natty is without mt1 and whatever was once legal.
besides, i asked where is the progress?
how much progress was made since that pic?or is it regress?
looks close to the peak for his frame as a natty IMO... looks good (no homo)
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Mentzer says, "anybody got any urine I can chase down this meth with."
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lifetime natty is without mt1 and whatever was once legal.
besides, i asked where is the progress?
how much progress was made since that pic?or is it regress?
at that point in time i was indeed a lifetime natty as i had only used creatine
as far as progress goes well let's just say that my progress is going rather well at this point in time ;)
once i can row the 145 pound bell for 6 or so reps and do weight push-ups with 150 added for 6 or so reps then i'll post up progress pics, and in fact i'll probably post the pics wearing one of these coolass new shirts that i just recently purchased 8)
(http://www.denley.pl/data/gfx/pictures/large/3/4/6943_1.jpg)
(http://www.denley.pl/data/gfx/pictures/large/8/6/9868_2.jpg)
looks close to the peak for his frame as a natty IMO... looks good (no homo)
thanks brother, so maybe now i'll be able to hook myself up wit one of dem asian hotties ;D
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thanks brother, so maybe now i'll be able to hook myself up wit one of dem asian hotties ;D
sure, call me, i keep a pile of them on speed dial :)
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looks close to the peak for his frame as a natty IMO... looks good (no homo)
I agree.
One thing I've noticed is dj focuses a lot on his training and I wonder if he puts as much time/effort into his diet. Going by that pic he certainly knows how to get lean which is not something a lot of people have the dedication to do. Many people can get away with sub par training (we've all seen it) but diet is not as forgiving....
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I agree.
One thing I've noticed is dj focuses a lot on his training and I wonder if he puts as much time/effort into his diet. Going by that pic he certainly knows how to get lean which is not something a lot of people have the dedication to do. Many people can get away with sub par training (we've all seen it) but diet is not as forgiving....
thanks for the props dude
and honest to God i was eating wendy's double cheeseburgers, taco hell, mcdonalds quarter pounders and fries with coca-colas, etc
in my own personal experience "diet" means almost nothing and it's all in the training (the only thing that matters is total cals in vs. total cals out AND... the METABOLIC COST of HARD TRAINING)
at that point in time i was weight training roughly 5 days per week in the afternoons and the running 2 or 3 VERY HARD miles at night, i ran them at about a 6:30 minute per mile pace
again, i firmly believe that "diet" means fuck all and HARD TRAINING trumps the fuck out of it
but again, this is just my own honest experience
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thanks for the props dude
and honest to God i was eating wendy's double cheeseburgers, taco hell, mcdonalds quarter pounders and fries with coca-colas, etc
in my own personal experience "diet" means almost nothing and it's all in the training (the only thing that matters is total cals in vs. total cals out AND... the METABOLIC COST of HARD TRAINING)
at that point in time i was weight training roughly 5 days per week in the afternoons and the running 2 or 3 VERY HARD miles at night, i ran them at about a 6:30 minute per mile pace
again, i firmly believe that "diet" means fuck all and HARD TRAINING trumps the fuck out of it
but again, this is just my own honest experience
You know DJ I tend to agree with you to a point. When I was in my late teens I was really skinny and had a shit appetite. As soon as I started seriously training, my appetite increased two fold, my body was asking for food on it's own. This is why I don't understand the concept of bulking and overstuffing yourself, if your training is sound your body will ask of you what it needs and anything extra that you give it will end up as extra fat.
When it comes to getting lean however , I do think that those with slower metabolisms have to watch their diet. You can out-train a bad diet to a point, if the metabolism is fast enough. But that isn't necessarily the most efficient way of going about things.
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thanks for the props dude
and honest to God i was eating wendy's double cheeseburgers, taco hell, mcdonalds quarter pounders and fries with coca-colas, etc
in my own personal experience "diet" means almost nothing and it's all in the training (the only thing that matters is total cals in vs. total cals out AND... the METABOLIC COST of HARD TRAINING)
at that point in time i was weight training roughly 5 days per week in the afternoons and the running 2 or 3 VERY HARD miles at night, i ran them at about a 6:30 minute per mile pace
again, i firmly believe that "diet" means fuck all and HARD TRAINING trumps the fuck out of it
but again, this is just my own honest experience
Diet does mean something eat 6000 cals a day and do nothing see where that gets you. Simple you take more than you need you gain fat, less you lose. Now you can sit on the couch and eat 800 cals and lose fat. It's give and take activity levels vs cals.
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Another point Gentlemen is as you age it is harder. I do have to watch what i eat AND run and jump rope. when i was a bit younger i got away with drinking beer and a semi good diet.. now, no way. However there are some lucky Bastards like dj who can eat and get away with it. Having said that if i stop training i automatically eat less. some of the old school guys (Funky Bro knows more about this ) ate loads and trained full body and stayed in shape. Reg Park was known to eat very well and was a very solid muscular man.
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Another point Gentlemen is as you age it is harder. I do have to watch what i eat AND run and jump rope. when i was a bit younger i got away with drinking beer and a semi good diet.. now, no way. However there are some lucky Bastards like dj who can eat and get away with it. Having said that if i stop training i automatically eat less. some of the old school guys (Funky Bro knows more about this ) ate loads and trained full body and stayed in shape. Reg Park was known to eat very well and was a very solid muscular man.
Metabolism slows with age, good point.
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Good points guys...
I think diet wise, losing weight is much easier dj...simply eat less, increase your body's caloric requirements through activity levels, or a combination of the two. In my experience in order to gain good weight(muscle) you have to be a little more meticulous with what you put in your body. That was the point I was trying to make in my original post, not to take anything away from you if you can get lean on cheseburgers btw...props for that lol.
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depends, metabolism slows when mscle mass is withering away due to age and less hormones in body.
someone whos 40 and on bit gear will have quite the metabolism :D
that was a brilliant point, ofc one can lose weight while on 800cals doing fuck all all day, but thats suboptimal.
i cant empathize enough on telling socalled bbuilders to just generaly move alot, go out, dancing, walking in the city, anything, just dont sit at home waiting for the next meal.
sleeping every day is all the rest that one needs, and frequent days off the gym, bc every day training will definitely fry the nervous system eventually.everyone has to figure out where the edge is for themselves.
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That is so true.
Btw...just cause some of us choose to increase our natural hormones doesn't mean we don't care about our health. What you say about going out and being physically active is a whole lot better for us than sitting around polluting our bodies with junk food, drugs and alcohol. I'm not trying to justify my usage but I've felt some negativity towards those that choose to use on this board...then again that may have to do with your sig and how you feel about natural training lol.
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Metabolism slows with age, good point.
sorry man, but i call bullshit on this point
i'm nearing 40 and just a few months ago i was doing Metabolic Training and it ripped me the fuck up (viens running up and down my ab wall) whilst eating cookies, cakes, bacon and eggs, perogis (which is polish dumplings), fried ckicken strips, etc
age smage! if you are active as fuck and TRAIN HARD HARD HARD you fucking force your metabolism to become A MACHINE
but the problem is.... who the fuck wants to train so damn hard that they nearly pass the fuck out laying on the floor in a breathless near death state lol
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^
That is so true.
Btw...just cause some of us choose to increase our natural hormones doesn't mean we don't care about our health. What you say about going out and being physically active is a whole lot better for us than sitting around polluting our bodies with junk food, drugs and alcohol. I'm not trying to justify my usage but I've felt some negativity towards those that choose to use on this board...then again that may have to do with your sig and how you feel about natural training lol.
well you know i used to think very negative about steroids myself. I do not use or have ever used them and will not. However i think now after my correspondence with people here who use them i am now a bit more neutral. each to his own thing.
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sorry man, but i call bullshit on this point
i'm nearing 40 and just a few months ago i was doing Metabolic Training and it ripped me the fuck up (viens running up and down my ab wall) whilst eating cookies, cakes, bacon and eggs, perogis (which is polish dumplings), fried ckicken strips, etc
age smage! if you are active as fuck and TRAIN HARD HARD HARD you fucking force your metabolism to become A MACHINE
but the problem is.... who the fuck wants to train so damn hard that they nearly pass the fuck out laying on the floor in a breathless near death state lol
I think the idea of metabolic slow down is horseshit. People get less active with age. Reducing their BMR. Maintain high activity and boom. Metabolism is fine.
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I think the idea of metabolic slow down is horseshit. People get less active with age. Reducing their BMR. Maintain high activity and boom. Metabolism is fine.
not really because there is hormonal changes too as you age. some guys age better than others and can remain fit and active. others just age before their time..but yes there is some truth to what you wrote.. activity is king.
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less gh in the blood and less test.
this is the basis on my whole "theory/experience"
i propose that HARD CONSISTANT AND REGULAR TRAINING keeps gh and test levels elevated to higher than average levels
i call it the "chemical supecharging" that is the direct result of HARD TRAINING
even when i was in my early 20's i looked like absoclute shit if i stopped training or trained like a pussy, but then.... BOOM! if i started training really fucking hard i'd TRANSFORM my bod right quick ;)
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and to mr. nobody
read what i just wrote above man, that's basically why i want/need to train hard 4 or 5 days per week
i know you keep telling me to train less, but the problem is if one train too "less" then they lose the benefits of this "chemical super-charging" form HARD TRAINING that i'm talking bout
just training only once or even twice a week isn't enough man
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listen guys.. train each muscle hard 1x a week and let the overlap do the rest. train chest Monday with volume and hit arms Friday with dips or close grip benches the overlap is there...you canīt train any muscle without hitting it with volume and every angle. you will not overtrain if you eat well and sleep well.
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nono, for a natural, metabolism will absolutely decrease over time.
less gh in the blood and less test.
but yes, less activity is just as much a cause, but this less activity thing might be due to less hormones too.
Exactly, did John Grimek burn the same amount of cals a day at 80 years old as at 35 answer = no. You can do all the cardio, weight training etc metabolism will still slow down.