I assume most are "HARD-GAINERS"

[MCWAY]

i think you may have a learning disability and that definately deserves quotation marks more than the word hard-gainer.

Again, how much harder is it to drink whole milk, instead of skim milk? How much harder is it to eat beef, instead of chicken? How much harder it is to eat whole eggs, instead of egg whites?

The difference between gaining mass and not gaining mass can be just that small.

You seem determined to make excuses for pitiful progress. I used to think I was a hardgainer but I don't anymore. The reason for this is incorporating the very advice you've seen from my previous posts.

[myseone]

Again, how much harder is it to drink whole milk, instead of skim milk? How much harder is it to eat beef, instead of chicken? How much harder it is to eat whole eggs, instead of egg whites?

The difference between gaining mass and not gaining mass can be just that small.

You seem determined to make excuses for pitiful progress. I used to think I was a hardgainer but I don't anymore. The reason for this is incorporating the very advice you've seen from my previous posts.

Its not that hard at all, but a lot of new trainees focus on the things that count less in the whole equation such as, isolation exericese, nutritional  supplements, intensifying techniques, etc..

I'll say it again if a beginner is not progressing in new mass he/she is doing something wrong or he or she is sick.

Typically most skinny beginner under eat, and they have to get used to consuming more calories.

If gains are still hard to come by once calories are shifted up by a significant amount (4000-6000 cal range) then other factors have to be looked at such as training and rest.

Training wise if I found it hard to put on new muscle I would follow a program like the 20 rep squat program or something similiar.

If the average so called hard gainer trained with weights 2-3 times a week on a full body or a split program, limited their total sets per session to 10-20 (depending on intensity), and progressively added weight to their compound exercises they would gain weight fairly rapidly.

[MCWAY]

Its not that hard at all, but a lot of new trainees focus on the things that count less in the whole equation such as, isolation exericese, nutritional  supplements, intensifying techniques, etc..

I'll say it again if a beginner is not progressing in new mass he/she is doing something wrong or he or she is sick.

Typically most skinny beginner under eat, and they have to get used to consuming more calories.

If gains are still hard to come by once calories are shifted up by a significant amount (4000-6000 cal range) then other factors have to be looked at such as training and rest.

Training wise if I found it hard to put on new muscle I would follow a program like the 20 rep squat program or something similiar.

If the average so called hard gainer trained with weights 2-3 times a week on a full body or a split program, limited their total sets per session to 10-20 (depending on intensity), and progressively added weight to their compound exercises they would gain weight fairly rapidly.

John Parillo was among the folks, who emphasized diet. He felt that many bodybuilders weren't overtrained but merely underfed. He maintained that if you stuff a guy with the proper quality and QUANTITY of calories and put him to work in the gym, he'd swell up to massive proportions.

Too many people believe that there's only ONE way to train and diet, which explains why they so easily attach the hardgainer tag to themselves. If they don't grow via that one style, then "Screw it! I guess I'm not genetically gifted, like my friend. I'm a hardgainer. Woe is me!!".

I once had that mentality. It was only by learning and applying the advice I've posted that things change. I've met every physique goal I've set to date. And, I don't believe I'm close to exhausting my genetic potential.

[Crazykid909]

I agree with Borracho, ur workout is pointless. You might as well sit at home and play video games.

[MCWAY]

Its not that hard at all, but a lot of new trainees focus on the things that count less in the whole equation such as, isolation exericese, nutritional  supplements, intensifying techniques, etc..

I'll say it again if a beginner is not progressing in new mass he/she is doing something wrong or he or she is sick.

Typically most skinny beginner under eat, and they have to get used to consuming more calories.

If gains are still hard to come by once calories are shifted up by a significant amount (4000-6000 cal range) then other factors have to be looked at such as training and rest.

Training wise if I found it hard to put on new muscle I would follow a program like the 20 rep squat program or something similiar.

If the average so called hard gainer trained with weights 2-3 times a week on a full body or a split program, limited their total sets per session to 10-20 (depending on intensity), and progressively added weight to their compound exercises they would gain weight fairly rapidly.

As far as building mass is concerned, one thing we learned as kids holds true today: Breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

It sets the tempo for making sure your diet is straight. Most people think breakfast is coffee, some processed cereal that's 95% sugar, donuts. That's a sure-fire recipe for disaster. It's really bad in college, because kids are rushing to class and don't prepare to eat right.

When I was in college a decade ago, I found myself falling into that same trap, either eating junk for breakfast or not eating at all. The food in the cafeteria wasn't all that great at breakfast (which is part of the reason I was skipping that meal). So, I fixed that, via my "Poor Man's MET-Rx" shake I mentioned earlier. A half-dozen eggs, 16 oz. milk, and one scoop of milk-and-egg protein powder, all blended up together. That rendered at least 65 grams of protein.

Now, I have more time and can actually eat a solid meal. But, the key is still to get that FIRST good meal in your system. The rest seem to fall into place after that.

[myseone]

As far as building mass is concerned, one thing we learned as kids holds true today: Breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

It sets the tempo for making sure your diet is straight. Most people think breakfast is coffee, some processed cereal that's 95% sugar, donuts. That's a sure-fire recipe for disaster. It's really bad in college, because kids are rushing to class and don't prepare to eat right.

When I was in colleged a decade ago, I found myself falling into that same trap, either eating junk for breakfast or not eating at all. The food in the cafeteria wasn't all that great at breakfast (which is part of the reason I was skipping that meal). So, I fixed that, via my "Poor Man's MET-Rx" shake I mentioned earlier. A half-dozen eggs, 16 oz. milk, and one scoop of milk-and-egg protein powder, all blended up together. That rendered at least 65 grams of protein.

Now, I have more time and can actually eat a solid meal. But, the key is still to get that FIRST good meal in your system. The rest seem to fall into place after that.

I agree, breakfast is very important. I think that most new trainees, the ones that are really excited about getting bigger, shoot themselves in the foot so to speak. They tend to go to the gym too much (most people make best gains weight training 3 times a week max), they tend to under sleep, they tend to be wowed by nutritional supplements, they tend to not focus on getting stronger on compound exercises, they use to much isolation exercises, and their form really sucks.

Add all that up and is it any suprise that most people don't gain well. Unfortunately the popular magazines are filled with information which is worse that useless, in in some cases outright hazadous to health, fitness, and muscular development. Who really cares about Greg Valentino's feces, or about some new exotic supplement that increase testosterone in male butterflies, or how big some fitness chicks new tits are? what does this have to do with building a stronger body?

So people who read and follow the advice in the magazines are left with information that will either cause them to fail, make progress at a snails pace, or encourage them to take drugs to grow on the ridiculous advice.

Like I said getting bigger muscles is simple, it could be summed up in the following

1) apply sufficient intensity of stress to a muscle group to stimulate muscle growth; leaving sufficient recovery reserves left to allow for recovery and more importantly supercompensation (i.e. muscle growth and strength gains)

2) Eat enough calories along with sufficient protein, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins, minerals, and water to support full muscle recovery and growth

3) Allow enough time (days) to go by for a muscle that has been worked as well as all the other systems (particularly the nervous system) of the body to recovery and supercompensate. Also means get sufficient sleep and relaxation.

4) When supercompensation has been completed (gains in strength typically come before gains in new muscle) then train the muscle again with a slightly greater intensity (ex. increase resistance, or reps, or make careful use of intensity enhancers)

Another important factor that most motivated trainees ignore
As a trainee becomes stronger his ability to place greater stress on his body with exercise becomes greater. Even though a trainee will also build recovery has he builds strength (and muscle), eventually his strength will overtake his recovery ability. Eventually if a trainee continues using the exact same amount of sets, exercises, off days that produced gains earlier; he will eventually hit a plateau in strength and muscle size because the workout will have become to stressful (owing to the increase in strength).

The remedy:
Reduce the amount of work done, this can be done by reducing the amount of sets performed in the workout. The best way is to take additional rest hours or days before training not only the muscle group again but the body. For example if you are training every other day and reach a plateau for a few week, then schedule in an extra day or two between workouts to recover, and fight the desire to go into the gym and you will start progressing again. (most people do the exact opposite when they plateau, training more, adding more sets and exercises, and usually end up injured, tired, overtrained= no gains)

I figure most people will ignore this advice, not because it doesn't make sense but because most people are motivated to train out of emotion. They don't want to risk the chance, despite the logic, that they will shrink. Because of this they probably will not reach their goal, if they do it will take them years when it could have taken months.

Lawrence

(understand that genetics have a profound effect on what you can develop, but the application of the right technology and knowledge allow for greater strides.

Most people get wrapped up in the nonsense, and I really blame the magazines for this.

[Bast175]

Good post.

[gcb]

To any true hard gainers out there I strongly recommend the BRAWN series of books. Basically it says
that more is less.

[myseone]

To any true hard gainers out there I strongly recommend the BRAWN series of books. Basically it says
that more is less.

Agreed, All the Brawn books are awesome.

A few more books

HIT the mike mentzer way Mike mentzer

Dinosaur training

The Ripped series    by Clarence Bass

any book or article by Arthur Jones

[gcb]

I would also add anything by charles poliquin.

[myseone]

I would also add anything by charles poliquin.

I haven't read much of Poliquins work; what has your personal and others (that you know) success been with his methods?
Lean muscle mass gained?
Strength gains?

I'm curious, and I like to expand my knowledge and understanding.

Lawrence

[snatch_clean]

cardio is over-rated. a person who lifts weights has above average cardio compared to the non exercise population. if you bodybuild to look good and you're not an athlete you don't need to do cardio. most people play sports once in a while anyway so what's all this running like a hampster crap?

If you bodybuild and not an athlete...

Meaning there are bodybuilders who are athletes! HAHA.

And weight training is not cardio, even after a toughs set where your heart is racing. Cardiovascular exercise is not just about getting your heart running faster for a minute after a tough set. It is about training your utilizing the Krebs cycle.

[myseone]

If you bodybuild and not an athlete...

Meaning there are bodybuilders who are athletes! HAHA.

And weight training is not cardio, even after a toughs set where your heart is racing. Cardiovascular exercise is not just about getting your heart running faster for a minute after a tough set. It is about training your utilizing the Krebs cycle.
[/quote

I don't agree (respectfully), you can get a terrific cardiovascular workout from weight training. Specifically if you are training a lot of muscle groups and going from one exercise to the next without or very little rest. For example if you go from a set of squats to a set of leg extensions to a set of leg curls to a set of calf raises, rest a minute and repeat a few times you will get a heck of a cardiovascular workout. 

[gcb]

I haven't read much of Poliquins work; what has your personal and others (that you know) success been with his methods?
Lean muscle mass gained?
Strength gains?

I'm curious, and I like to expand my knowledge and understanding.

Lawrence

Poliquin is a strength coach and most of his stuff is focused on building strength. They have a lot of his articles on
T-nation.

George.

[myseone]

Poliquin is a strength coach and most of his stuff is focused on building strength. They have a lot of his articles on
T-nation.

George.

Yeah I know that he used to write for Muscle media 2000; and every now and then writes for the popular bodybuilding rags.

Have you had any success with his methods?

[Ursus]

if i was to write a book on my own theories it wud not be a hell of a lot different from brawm

u can prob get it from libraries and everyone shud read it if not for info tips etc but for the fun of it.

[myseone]

if i was to write a book on my own theories it wud not be a hell of a lot different from brawm

u can prob get it from libraries and everyone shud read it if not for info tips etc but for the fun of it.

Yeah Brawn is a good all around book for the serious trainee. Its written in a moderate style so would appeal to moderate minded people.

The second Brawn is good, but my favorite is the first one, just a good overall read.

[gibberj2]

you guys read these books? are they for naturals?

[gcb]

Yeah I know that he used to write for Muscle media 2000; and every now and then writes for the popular bodybuilding rags.

Have you had any success with his methods?

He introduced me to 5x5 and a few other techniques that help me put on strength - although I would say some
of his methods are a bit advanced and not for the beginner. When I do read his workouts he does not advise on
too much volume which is where most muscle rags fall down - obviously though if you buy the supplements they
advertise you "will" get the results .

[gcb]

you guys read these books? are they for naturals?

Brawn should be your first stop as a natural.

[Ursus]

i only bought it a few months ago but did apply the principle of cycling and it worls so well. my training is bascially 6 exercises apliut over a wee. also what brawn advocates

[myseone]

Why would most hard gainers be on a natural forum? Seems to me hard gainers will be the most likely ones to consider the dark side. I do not claim to know the percentage of hard gainers who juice or juicers who are hard gainers but your deductive powers are a sight to behold.

Can you draw a generic Venn diagram to do the population balance? Go ahead use google which is now the last court of redress for the less educated.

Not really, some people refuse to cross the line no matter what. I would easy gainers tend to stray more to the dark side of the force. Probably because they get so much attention from others with a little effort, and start to get a swollen head, and think that they have the ability to compete successfully.

[MCWAY]

Polloquin sounds as if he knows his stuff. I'd also go with some old-school articles from Greg Zulak. They've definitely been of benefit to me.

[MCWAY]

I agree, breakfast is very important. I think that most new trainees, the ones that are really excited about getting bigger, shoot themselves in the foot so to speak. They tend to go to the gym too much (most people make best gains weight training 3 times a week max), they tend to under sleep, they tend to be wowed by nutritional supplements, they tend to not focus on getting stronger on compound exercises, they use to much isolation exercises, and their form really sucks.

Add all that up and is it any suprise that most people don't gain well. Unfortunately the popular magazines are filled with information which is worse that useless, in in some cases outright hazadous to health, fitness, and muscular development. Who really cares about Greg Valentino's feces, or about some new exotic supplement that increase testosterone in male butterflies, or how big some fitness chicks new tits are? what does this have to do with building a stronger body?

So people who read and follow the advice in the magazines are left with information that will either cause them to fail, make progress at a snails pace, or encourage them to take drugs to grow on the ridiculous advice.

Like I said getting bigger muscles is simple, it could be summed up in the following

1) apply sufficient intensity of stress to a muscle group to stimulate muscle growth; leaving sufficient recovery reserves left to allow for recovery and more importantly supercompensation (i.e. muscle growth and strength gains)

2) Eat enough calories along with sufficient protein, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins, minerals, and water to support full muscle recovery and growth

3) Allow enough time (days) to go by for a muscle that has been worked as well as all the other systems (particularly the nervous system) of the body to recovery and supercompensate. Also means get sufficient sleep and relaxation.

4) When supercompensation has been completed (gains in strength typically come before gains in new muscle) then train the muscle again with a slightly greater intensity (ex. increase resistance, or reps, or make careful use of intensity enhancers)

Another important factor that most motivated trainees ignore
As a trainee becomes stronger his ability to place greater stress on his body with exercise becomes greater. Even though a trainee will also build recovery has he builds strength (and muscle), eventually his strength will overtake his recovery ability. Eventually if a trainee continues using the exact same amount of sets, exercises, off days that produced gains earlier; he will eventually hit a plateau in strength and muscle size because the workout will have become to stressful (owing to the increase in strength).

The remedy:
Reduce the amount of work done, this can be done by reducing the amount of sets performed in the workout. The best way is to take additional rest hours or days before training not only the muscle group again but the body. For example if you are training every other day and reach a plateau for a few week, then schedule in an extra day or two between workouts to recover, and fight the desire to go into the gym and you will start progressing again. (most people do the exact opposite when they plateau, training more, adding more sets and exercises, and usually end up injured, tired, overtrained= no gains)

I figure most people will ignore this advice, not because it doesn't make sense but because most people are motivated to train out of emotion. They don't want to risk the chance, despite the logic, that they will shrink. Because of this they probably will not reach their goal, if they do it will take them years when it could have taken months.

AMEN!!!

This reminds me of something that Jeff Everson mentioned in Muscle & Fitness, back in the 80s. "If you're having trouble growing, despite stuffing yourself, then it's time you learned the real secret to gaining weight: Liquid Nutrition."

This falls right in line with what Greg Zulak says in his articles, "It's much easier to drink 1000 calories and 100 grams of protein, than it is to eat it."

I follow this advice to this day. The only difference between what I do now and what I did when I was younger is that I've replaced the weight gainers with MRPs, simply because I don't need as many calories to grow as I did 10-15 years ago.

[myseone]

AMEN!!!

This reminds me of something that Jeff Everson mentioned in Muscle & Fitness, back in the 80s. "If you're having trouble growing, despite stuffing yourself, then it's time you learned the real secret to gaining weight: Liquid Nutrition."

This falls right in line with what Greg Zulak says in his articles, "It's much easier to drink 1000 calories and 100 grams of protein, than it is to eat it."

I follow this advice to this day. The only difference between what I do now and what I did when I was younger is that I've replaced the weight gainers with MRPs, simply because I don't need as many calories to grow as I did 10-15 years ago.

Yeah liquid meals are great for people who have a hard time eating enough. A definite advantage of being a little older is that gains can be made with less calories than when you were older. I used to consume aprox. 7000 cals a day and had to fight to gain mass, now I can easily do it with 4500-5000 cals.