Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums

Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Dos Equis on April 12, 2007, 11:04:07 AM

Title: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 12, 2007, 11:04:07 AM
I had an eventful day yesterday.  Attended and participated in a number of meetings with different organizations/entities.  Most of these meetings involved prayer:

1.  Honolulu City Council Session:  It began with a devotional and prayer by a local pastor.  The City Council members are overwhelmingly liberal Democrat (about 8 out of 9).  I was very surprised.   

2.  State Government Entity:  Attended a meeting that did not include prayer.  I would have fallen off of my chair.   :) 

3.  Nonproft Religious Entity:  The meeting began and ended with prayer.  I was asked to give the closing prayer (I hate doing that.)  These prayers were expected. 

4.  Professional Society:  Attended an annual dinner of professionals.  Not a religious group at all.  The meeting began with a prayer.  The room was overwhelming liberal.

What struck me was what an integral part prayer is in our public life.  I bet the ACLU disapproves.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.   :))   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 11:12:25 AM
I had an eventful day yesterday.  Attended and participated in a number of meetings with different organizations/entities.  Most of these meetings involved prayer:

1.  Honolulu City Council Session:  It began with a devotional and prayer by a local pastor.  The City Council members are overwhelmingly liberal Democrat (about 8 out of 9).  I was very surprised.   

2.  State Government Entity:  Attended a meeting that did not include prayer.  I would have fallen off of my chair.   :) 

3.  Nonproft Religious Entity:  The meeting began and ended with prayer.  I was asked to give the closing prayer (I hate doing that.)  These prayers were expected. 

4.  Professional Society:  Attended an annual dinner of professionals.  Not a religious group at all.  The meeting began with a prayer.  The room was overwhelming liberal.

What struck me was what an integral part prayer is in our public life.  I bet the ACLU disapproves.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.   :))   
Nonsense about the ACLU BeachBum.  We just can't have government proselytizing the people or paying for any religious idols. 

It is a free country.  Pray to your heart's content.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 12, 2007, 11:16:03 AM
Nonsense about the ACLU BeachBum.  We just can't have government proselytizing the people or paying for any religious idols. 

It is a free country.  Pray to your heart's content.

I was kidding about the ACLU.

I agree the government shouldn't be proselytizing. 

It's not just that this is a free country, it's that faith is really interwoven throughout our society, both in the public and private sectors.  It was fascinating to see this at play yesterday. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 11:21:29 AM
I was kidding about the ACLU.

I agree the government shouldn't be proselytizing. 

It's not just that this is a free country, it's that faith is really interwoven throughout our society, both in the public and private sectors.  It was fascinating to see this at play yesterday. 
I know that I can sound like a humorless dickhead on these boards.  I try not to be. 

I know what you mean about watching religion at play in our society. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: headhuntersix on April 12, 2007, 11:33:11 AM
I'm pretty secular..and as a catholic..I get pretty "itchy" I guess when the evengelicals start pushing their agenda. I don't have aproblem with the prayers as u descibed them. Not sure it has any place in schools, however if a town or city, especially in the south is all pretty christian and folks vote for it, then I guess its not a big deal. That said...if the damm rags wanna where full on man dresses and burka's..its gotta be even on both sides. Head scarves sure..but they go to far.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 12, 2007, 11:48:42 AM
I know that I can sound like a humorless dickhead on these boards.  I try not to be. 


Not at all.  I'm just a goof.  I'm the one who keeps a fake cockroach in my office drawer that I have planted around the office more than once.   :)  I live in a house full of kids and I'm an overgrown kid myself (according to my kids).  A lot of what I say is tongue in cheek. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 12:24:04 PM
I had an eventful day yesterday.  Attended and participated in a number of meetings with different organizations/entities.  Most of these meetings involved prayer:

1.  Honolulu City Council Session:  It began with a devotional and prayer by a local pastor.  The City Council members are overwhelmingly liberal Democrat (about 8 out of 9).  I was very surprised.   

2.  State Government Entity:  Attended a meeting that did not include prayer.  I would have fallen off of my chair.   :) 

3.  Nonproft Religious Entity:  The meeting began and ended with prayer.  I was asked to give the closing prayer (I hate doing that.)  These prayers were expected. 

4.  Professional Society:  Attended an annual dinner of professionals.  Not a religious group at all.  The meeting began with a prayer.  The room was overwhelming liberal.

What struck me was what an integral part prayer is in our public life.  I bet the ACLU disapproves.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.   :))   

And the ACLU claims to not have an agenda against Christianity.   ::)  Gimme a break!  You're so right, bro.  The ACLU's beef is not with religion per se, but more specifically against Christianity. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: OzmO on April 12, 2007, 12:28:29 PM
Here's what's happening:


We are confusing a defense lawyer's job of defending a criminal with the assumption the Defense lawyers supports the criminal.

That's what why some of us say the ACLU is fighting Christianity.

They are not fighting it.  They are protecting our rights and not allowing a religious organization to  influence the country through or in the government.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 12:33:36 PM
Here's what's happening:


We are confusing a defense lawyer's job of defending a criminal with the assumption the Defense lawyers supports the criminal.

That's what why some of us say the ACLU is fighting Christianity.

They are not fighting it.  They are protecting our rights and not allowing a religious organization to  influence the country through or in the government.
Then why are there so many lawsuits like the one in New Mexico for city named after the "Three Crosses", or the military gravesite that has the cross on it?  Or how about the frivolous lawsuits all over the country being threatened if a building/city doesn't take down their cross, or the schools that have "Easter" or "Christmas" parties?  You can see where I might come up with the notion that they are out to do away with anything that has to do with Christianity.  Yes?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 12:43:31 PM
Then why are there so many lawsuits like the one in New Mexico for city named after the "Three Crosses", or the military gravesite that has the cross on it?  Or how about the frivolous lawsuits all over the country being threatened if a building/city doesn't take down their cross, or the schools that have "Easter" or "Christmas" parties?  You can see where I might come up with the notion that they are out to do away with anything that has to do with Christianity.  Yes?
B/c Christians wrongly assume that, since the US is a Christian Country, christians should be able to use government to further the ends of the Christian religion.

Sorry for the 'mind-reading' but I'm paraphrasing why these cases arise.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: OzmO on April 12, 2007, 12:47:42 PM
Then why are there so many lawsuits like the one in New Mexico for city named after the "Three Crosses", or the military gravesite that has the cross on it?  Or how about the frivolous lawsuits all over the country being threatened if a building/city doesn't take down their cross, or the schools that have "Easter" or "Christmas" parties?  You can see where I might come up with the notion that they are out to do away with anything that has to do with Christianity.  Yes?

I certainly do, i can see that. 

 Those are clearly a case of things going to far and are a big waste of time and money when there are clearly bigger fish to fry.


But they aren't intentionally trying to do away with anything "Christian"  they are just trying to keep organized religion out of government. If it was a school Passover party and someone protested the ACLU probably would get involved also.   

Are these law suits filled by the ACLU on behalf of a private party or are they filled by the ACLU solely or by a private party solely?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 01:05:52 PM
I certainly do, i can see that. 

 Those are clearly a case of things going to far and are a big waste of time and money when there are clearly bigger fish to fry.


But they aren't intentionally trying to do away with anything "Christian"  they are just trying to keep organized religion out of government. If it was a school Passover party and someone protested the ACLU probably would get involved also.   

Are these law suits filled by the ACLU on behalf of a private party or are they filled by the ACLU solely or by a private party solely?
You write well.  Generally the ACLU writes an amicus brief (friend of the court) on someone else's behalf to make sure that a plaintiff's liberties are well represented.  The ACLU has been plaintiff in cases versus the Justice Department, NSA etc.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 01:18:58 PM
I certainly do, i can see that. 

 Those are clearly a case of things going to far and are a big waste of time and money when there are clearly bigger fish to fry.


But they aren't intentionally trying to do away with anything "Christian"  they are just trying to keep organized religion out of government. If it was a school Passover party and someone protested the ACLU probably would get involved also.   

Are these law suits filled by the ACLU on behalf of a private party or are they filled by the ACLU solely or by a private party solely?
But don't you see how they are going after rights that have been set up for us as Americans?  Here are some questions that we are left with then:

"what should be the relationship between religion and public life?" Does the public expression of religious conviction necessarily infringe upon the religious liberty of another? Does the restriction of religious practice to the private sphere undermine free exercise? What degree of neutrality should our government observe?"
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 01:22:55 PM
I certainly do, i can see that. 

 Those are clearly a case of things going to far and are a big waste of time and money when there are clearly bigger fish to fry.


But they aren't intentionally trying to do away with anything "Christian"  they are just trying to keep organized religion out of government. If it was a school Passover party and someone protested the ACLU probably would get involved also.   

Are these law suits filled by the ACLU on behalf of a private party or are they filled by the ACLU solely or by a private party solely?
The lawsuits are generally filed on behalf of sub-agencies or local chapters of the ACLU. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 12, 2007, 01:23:30 PM
But don't you see how they are going after rights that have been set up for us as Americans?  Here are some questions that we are left with then:

"what should be the relationship between religion and public life?" Does the public expression of religious conviction necessarily infringe upon the religious liberty of another? Does the restriction of religious practice to the private sphere undermine free exercise? What degree of neutrality should our government observe?"


Good quote.  This is one of the problems  I have with the ACLU.  They are attempting to cleanse the public sector of all religious expression.  
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 01:26:08 PM
I'm quoting the decision from a 1981 court hearing:

Widmar v. Vincent

454 U.S. 263 (1981)

Facts of the Case:
The University of Missouri at Kansas City ruled that its facilities could not be used by student groups “for purposes of religious worship or religious teaching.” The school believed that the action was required under the Establishment Clause. A student religious group that had previously been permitted to use the facilities sued the school after being informed of the change in policy. They asserted that their First Amendment rights to religious free exercise and free speech were being violated.


Decision:
The Court ruled that the Establishment Clause did not require state universities to limit access to their facilities by religious organizations.

Majority Opinion: (Justice Powell)
Because the University has generally permitted its facilities to be used by student organizations, it must demonstrate that its restrictions are constitutionally permitted. An equal access policy would not necessarily violate the Establishment Clause. The three-pronged Lemon Test would not be violated by such a policy. It would have a secular legislative purpose and not foster excessive government entanglement. The third part, that the policy’s primary effect would advance religion, is what the University claimed. “...this Court has explained that a religious organization's enjoyment of merely "incidental" benefits does not violate the prohibition against the "primary advancement" of religion.” Any such benefits at UMKC would be incidental. The state does not necessarily approve of all groups who use the open forum, and the forum is open to non-religious as well as religious groups.

Significance:
This decision ensured greater access to public facilities by religious organizations. The state was not assumed to be in support of all messages that were communicated in their facilities.
 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 01:44:36 PM
I'm quoting the decision from a 1981 court hearing:

Widmar v. Vincent

454 U.S. 263 (1981)

Facts of the Case:
The University of Missouri at Kansas City ruled that its facilities could not be used by student groups “for purposes of religious worship or religious teaching.” The school believed that the action was required under the Establishment Clause. A student religious group that had previously been permitted to use the facilities sued the school after being informed of the change in policy. They asserted that their First Amendment rights to religious free exercise and free speech were being violated.


Decision:
The Court ruled that the Establishment Clause did not require state universities to limit access to their facilities by religious organizations.

Majority Opinion: (Justice Powell)
Because the University has generally permitted its facilities to be used by student organizations, it must demonstrate that its restrictions are constitutionally permitted. An equal access policy would not necessarily violate the Establishment Clause. The three-pronged Lemon Test would not be violated by such a policy. It would have a secular legislative purpose and not foster excessive government entanglement. The third part, that the policy’s primary effect would advance religion, is what the University claimed. “...this Court has explained that a religious organization's enjoyment of merely "incidental" benefits does not violate the prohibition against the "primary advancement" of religion.” Any such benefits at UMKC would be incidental. The state does not necessarily approve of all groups who use the open forum, and the forum is open to non-religious as well as religious groups.

Significance:
This decision ensured greater access to public facilities by religious organizations. The state was not assumed to be in support of all messages that were communicated in their facilities.
 

Since the ACLU is not a plaintiff in this case, do you have access to the brief it filed.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 01:46:23 PM
Good quote.  This is one of the problems  I have with the ACLU.  They are attempting to cleanse the public sector of all religious expression.  
Only where government funded places are concerned.  Private property owners are pretty much free to do as they please.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 01:54:28 PM
Since the ACLU is not a plaintiff in this case, do you have access to the brief it filed.
No, they aren't the plaintiff in this particular case, but it does speak to the argument that you and Ozmo have been trying to give with regard to keeping organized religion out of government.  These liberties that you claim the ACLU fights for (and I agree, there was a day that the ACLU stood for rights of all people, but that's no longer true...grant me that much) are available to Christians as well.  And what we are seeing day after day now is a fight to trample the same liberties that belong to Christians.  I specify Christianity because I don't see the ACLU arguing cases against any other religion.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 02:17:51 PM
No, they aren't the plaintiff in this particular case, but it does speak to the argument that you and Ozmo have been trying to give with regard to keeping organized religion out of government.  These liberties that you claim the ACLU fights for (and I agree, there was a day that the ACLU stood for rights of all people, but that's no longer true...grant me that much) are available to Christians as well.  And what we are seeing day after day now is a fight to trample the same liberties that belong to Christians.  I specify Christianity because I don't see the ACLU arguing cases against any other religion.
What do the cases generally have in common.  Christian groups try to assert their religion on gov. property or proselytize w/ gov. resources.  That can't happen.

"Was it an attack on Christianity or Judaism when the ACLU fought for Jerry Falwell and against the City of Lynchburg when the latter tried to restrict how much land Falwell could buy for his church? Was it an attack on Christianity or Judaism when the ACLU fought for the right of an anti-abortion group to show anti-abortion films in local schools after hours? Was it an attack on Christianity or Judaism when the ACLU fought for the rights of students to include biblical verses in their high school year books?" http://atheism.about.com/b/a/117245.htm?terms=aclu+stand

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 02:19:54 PM
"The ACLU has consistently defended the rights of Christians to worship as their religion and conscience dictates, often against the attempts by other Christians to infringe upon those rights by having certain forms of Christianity privileged by the government. The ACLU has also consistently fought against the privileging of any one religion or any one sect over others. Why? Because when one religion or sect is privileged, all suffer. That's what the separation of church and state is all about..." Ibid
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 02:25:52 PM
What do the cases generally have in common.  Christian groups try to assert their religion on gov. property or proselytize w/ gov. resources.  That can't happen.
What does the lawsuit of the city of Las Cruces New Mexico have to do with Christian groups???  It's the name of a city, dude!  Same thing with the Mt. Soledad Cross.  There's no correlation.  I appreciate the fact that you're trying to stand up for the ACLU.  And again, they used to be a worthy opponent, but we're no longer hearing about these cases.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: kh300 on April 12, 2007, 02:28:19 PM
i remember when they were going after the yankees,, because during the 7th inning they have a prayer for the soldiers each game.. george steinbrenor basically said fuck off its a private business
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 02:29:59 PM
Here's my point exactly:

Freedom Fighters
Department of Justice ramps up efforts to enforce the First Amendment.
Brad. A. Greenberg | posted 4/11/2007 08:32AM


In the five years before President Bush took office, the Department of Justice (DOJ) reviewed one education discrimination complaint involving religion and investigated none. In the six years since, 82 cases were reviewed and 40 investigated.

Now the Bush administration wants to enhance those efforts with greater governmental resources. U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced at a Southern Baptist leaders' meeting in February that the DOJ was launching the First Freedom Project, an initiative to further combat religious discrimination and protect religious freedom.

"One of the great strengths of America is the fact we are a nation of tolerance. We respect different viewpoints; we respect different beliefs," Wan J. Kim, assistant attorney general for civil rights, told CT. "That separates us from a lot of other nations. When we do this work to protect against religious discrimination, we strengthen America. And we do so in a way that is nondenominational."

The initiative will include the Religious Freedom Task Force, chaired by Kim, which will employ various divisions of the DOJ to review discrimination complaints. The new www.firstfreedom.gov (http://www.firstfreedom.gov) website touts previous successes, educates Americans about their rights, and provides a channel for filing complaints online. The department also will hold a series of regional training seminars. Events have been scheduled for Tampa on April 25 and Seattle on May 10.

Even before the First Freedom Project, the DOJ's stepped-up efforts have generated greater religious freedom, according to the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. Government lawyers convinced a federal court last year that a New Jersey school had unconstitutionally censored a Christian song from a talent show. The DOJ compelled the Los Angeles Metropolitan Transportation Authority in 2005 to accommodate religious beliefs, even if it meant bus drivers wouldn't work certain days.

The First Freedom Project comes at a time when concern about religious persecution has heightened. Between 1992 and 2005, religious-discrimination complaints filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission jumped 69 percent.

Given the Bush administration's ties to religious conservatives, some experts greeted the initiative with skepticism.

"They need to reach out to many different constituencies that have different approaches to church-state issues to give people confidence this will be a straightforward educational project and not a political battering ram," said Melissa Rogers, visiting professor of religion and public policy at Wake Forest University Divinity School. "[The unveiling] sends the opposite signals."

But Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center, said the Bush administration has a track record of defending religious minorities.

"It is unfortunate we are so polarized today that we can't even acknowledge opportunities where we can agree," Haynes said. "Just because it is coming out of the Bush administration, some people decide it has to be condemned completely and labeled a fake and a fraud and that the work being done to protect religious minorities doesn't matter. Well, it does matter to Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus and Jews. Whether you are on the Right or the Left, this is exactly the kind of Justice Department you should want. This is exactly what we want them to be doing to protect religious freedom."

Copyright © 2007 Christianity Today.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 02:30:56 PM
i remember when they were going after the yankees,, because during the 7th inning they have a prayer for the soldiers each game.. george steinbrenor basically said fuck off its a private business
hats off to george!   :D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 02:32:48 PM
What does the lawsuit of the city of Las Cruces New Mexico have to do with Christian groups???  It's the name of a city, dude!  Same thing with the Mt. Soledad Cross.  There's no correlation.  I appreciate the fact that you're trying to stand up for the ACLU.  And again, they used to be a worthy opponent, but we're no longer hearing about these cases.
Relax.  

I'm just mentioning why many of the cases with ACLU involvement come to be.  It's not like the ACLU has spies in churches across the country waiting to pounce on the laity.

The ACLU has not gone too far.  Opponents of the ACLU have been conditioned to expect less from their constitutional rights and liberties.

If you look at some of the cases where the ACLU defends christians, I'm certain you would change your opinion.  See my post above.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2007, 02:35:40 PM
Here's my point exactly:

Freedom Fighters
Department of Justice ramps up efforts to enforce the First Amendment.
Brad. A. Greenberg | posted 4/11/2007 08:32AM


In the five years before President Bush took office, the Department of Justice (DOJ) reviewed one education discrimination complaint involving religion and investigated none. In the six years since, 82 cases were reviewed and 40 investigated.

Now the Bush administration wants to enhance those efforts with greater governmental resources. U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced at a Southern Baptist leaders' meeting in February that the DOJ was launching the First Freedom Project, an initiative to further combat religious discrimination and protect religious freedom.

"One of the great strengths of America is the fact we are a nation of tolerance. We respect different viewpoints; we respect different beliefs," Wan J. Kim, assistant attorney general for civil rights, told CT. "That separates us from a lot of other nations. When we do this work to protect against religious discrimination, we strengthen America. And we do so in a way that is nondenominational."

The initiative will include the Religious Freedom Task Force, chaired by Kim, which will employ various divisions of the DOJ to review discrimination complaints. The new www.firstfreedom.gov (http://www.firstfreedom.gov) website touts previous successes, educates Americans about their rights, and provides a channel for filing complaints online. The department also will hold a series of regional training seminars. Events have been scheduled for Tampa on April 25 and Seattle on May 10.

Even before the First Freedom Project, the DOJ's stepped-up efforts have generated greater religious freedom, according to the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. Government lawyers convinced a federal court last year that a New Jersey school had unconstitutionally censored a Christian song from a talent show. The DOJ compelled the Los Angeles Metropolitan Transportation Authority in 2005 to accommodate religious beliefs, even if it meant bus drivers wouldn't work certain days.

The First Freedom Project comes at a time when concern about religious persecution has heightened. Between 1992 and 2005, religious-discrimination complaints filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission jumped 69 percent.

Given the Bush administration's ties to religious conservatives, some experts greeted the initiative with skepticism.

"They need to reach out to many different constituencies that have different approaches to church-state issues to give people confidence this will be a straightforward educational project and not a political battering ram," said Melissa Rogers, visiting professor of religion and public policy at Wake Forest University Divinity School. "[The unveiling] sends the opposite signals."

But Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center, said the Bush administration has a track record of defending religious minorities.

"It is unfortunate we are so polarized today that we can't even acknowledge opportunities where we can agree," Haynes said. "Just because it is coming out of the Bush administration, some people decide it has to be condemned completely and labeled a fake and a fraud and that the work being done to protect religious minorities doesn't matter. Well, it does matter to Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus and Jews. Whether you are on the Right or the Left, this is exactly the kind of Justice Department you should want. This is exactly what we want them to be doing to protect religious freedom."

Copyright © 2007 Christianity Today.
More power to them.  I just hope that the effort does not devolve into some ACLJ special interest group asserting the primacy of christianity.

Have a great day Colossus.  I gotta head home to the wife.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 02:37:16 PM
Relax.  

I'm just mentioning why many of the cases with ACLU involvement come to be.  It's not like the ACLU has spies in churches across the country waiting to pounce on the laity.

The ACLU has not gone too far.  Opponents of the ACLU have been conditioned to expect less from their constitutional rights and liberties.

If you look at some of the cases where the ACLU defends christians, I'm certain you would change your opinion.  See my post above.
I read it.  Truth be told.  If I simply follow the briefings that the ALCJ (www.alcj.org - maybe you should check it out) even just a mere 3 years, I will see the ACLU's fingerprints all over these cases, and they all deal with religious liberty as it pertains to Christians or Judeo-Christian values.  Check it out for yourself, bro.  
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 12, 2007, 02:38:12 PM
More power to them.  I just hope that the effort does not devolve into some ACLJ special interest group asserting the primacy of christianity.

Have a great day Colossus.  I gotta head home to the wife.
See ya, bro.  It was great debating this topic with you.  Thanks for keeping it civil.   :D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: OzmO on April 12, 2007, 02:38:26 PM
No, they aren't the plaintiff in this particular case, but it does speak to the argument that you and Ozmo have been trying to give with regard to keeping organized religion out of government.  These liberties that you claim the ACLU fights for (and I agree, there was a day that the ACLU stood for rights of all people, but that's no longer true...grant me that much) are available to Christians as well.  And what we are seeing day after day now is a fight to trample the same liberties that belong to Christians.  I specify Christianity because I don't see the ACLU arguing cases against any other religion.

Well you don't see any other religion, Christianity,  being represented or associated with city, state or federal government offices, institutions etc...

That's it's the only thing you see.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: 24KT on April 12, 2007, 07:55:41 PM
I had an eventful day yesterday.  Attended and participated in a number of meetings with different organizations/entities.  Most of these meetings involved prayer:

1.  Honolulu City Council Session:  It began with a devotional and prayer by a local pastor.  The City Council members are overwhelmingly liberal Democrat (about 8 out of 9).  I was very surprised.   

2.  State Government Entity:  Attended a meeting that did not include prayer.  I would have fallen off of my chair.   :) 

3.  Nonproft Religious Entity:  The meeting began and ended with prayer.  I was asked to give the closing prayer (I hate doing that.)  These prayers were expected. 

4.  Professional Society:  Attended an annual dinner of professionals.  Not a religious group at all.  The meeting began with a prayer.  The room was overwhelming liberal.

What struck me was what an integral part prayer is in our public life.  I bet the ACLU disapproves.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.   :))   


Shhhh... careful now, ...you're contradicting I-ones stance that you can't be a Liberal Democrat and still be a Christian too.  ;)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 13, 2007, 06:27:11 AM
Well you don't see any other religion, Christianity,  being represented or associated with city, state or federal government offices, institutions etc...

That's it's the only thing you see.
Maybe then it IS, IN FACT, because we are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values then.   :-\  Why would we have ever bothered to put those items in place... the Ten Commandments in the Courtrooms, and use language like "O Ye, O Ye, the Supreme Court of the United States is now in session and may God save this honorable Court"? to open sessions in the Supreme Court??

You're right, Ozmo, it does matter how you look at it. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 13, 2007, 06:28:59 AM

Shhhh... careful now, ...you're contradicting I-ones stance that you can't be a Liberal Democrat and still be a Christian too.  ;)
Surely God loves the liberal democrat too....  So long as that liberal democrat acknowledges Jesus as Savior and Lord over his life.   :D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on April 13, 2007, 07:33:43 AM
Round two: For second year, N.J. school officials attempt to block student promotion of Day of Truth
Officials backed down last year after receiving letter from ADF attorneys; this year, lawsuit being filed
Thursday, April 12, 2007, 9:50 AM (MST) |
ADF Media Relations | 480-444-0020


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Jersey high school officials back down, will permit “make-up” Day of Truth observance
ALLENDALE, N.J. — For the second year in a row, Northern Highlands Regional High School officials are blocking students’ efforts to promote the Day of Truth.  In 2006, administrators backed down on their prohibition of the event after Alliance Defense Fund attorneys sent a letter to the school on behalf of student Jason Aufiero.  This year, ADF attorneys are filing suit.

“Once again, school officials are attempting to strip students of their First Amendment rights,” said ADF Litigation Counsel Jeremy Tedesco.  “Nearly 40 years ago, the Supreme Court ruled that free speech rights do not come to a screeching halt at the schoolhouse gate.  This principle applies with full force to students attending Northern Highlands Regional High School.”

Aufiero and other members of the school’s Christian Club have been repeatedly thwarted in their attempts to promote the Day of Truth, which occurs on April 19 this year.  Club members are asking to hold their activities the following day in order to coincide with the day of their scheduled club meeting.

With more than 5,000 students already registered this year, the Day of Truth is an opportunity for Christian students to respectfully present a different viewpoint than students participating in the Day of Silence, sponsored by the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network.

Officials told Aufiero that he and the Christian Club could not engage in any expressive activities regarding the Day of Truth.  Club members requested to distribute literature regarding the Day of Truth to students during non-instructional time, to have an announcement on the Day of Truth read over the school’s loudspeaker, and to wear Day of Truth T-shirts.

School officials continue to support the activities of the school’s Gay-Straight Alliance Club, which expresses support for the homosexual agenda via the Day of Silence event, which occurs on April 18 this year.  In 2006, school officials had agreed to end their ban on Day of Truth activities after they were contacted via letter by ADF attorneys (www.telladf.org/news/story.aspx?cid=3774).

A copy of the complaint filed by ADF attorneys in the U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey in Aufiero v. Northern Highlands Regional High School Board of Education is available at www.telladf.org/UserDocs/AufieroComplaint.pdf.

“It is unconstitutional for school officials to bar the Day of Truth while at the same time welcoming the Day of Silence with open arms,” Tedesco said.  “They cannot be permitted to continue engaging in viewpoint discrimination against Christian students.”

ADF is a legal alliance defending the right to hear and speak the Truth through strategy, training, funding, and litigation.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 13, 2007, 09:12:52 AM
I had an eventful day yesterday.  Attended and participated in a number of meetings with different organizations/entities.  Most of these meetings involved prayer:

1.  Honolulu City Council Session:  It began with a devotional and prayer by a local pastor.  The City Council members are overwhelmingly liberal Democrat (about 8 out of 9).  I was very surprised.   

2.  State Government Entity:  Attended a meeting that did not include prayer.  I would have fallen off of my chair.   :) 

3.  Nonproft Religious Entity:  The meeting began and ended with prayer.  I was asked to give the closing prayer (I hate doing that.)  These prayers were expected. 

4.  Professional Society:  Attended an annual dinner of professionals.  Not a religious group at all.  The meeting began with a prayer.  The room was overwhelming liberal.

What struck me was what an integral part prayer is in our public life.  I bet the ACLU disapproves.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.   :))   

big deal - sample size of four is essentially meaningless.  Added to that - 2 of the four were not government entities but private organizations (I'm assuming).   I assume also that in the city council meeting that no one was forced to attend or pray.   Prayer before secular meetings or groups are largely a ceremonial formality.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: OzmO on April 13, 2007, 09:56:55 AM
Maybe then it IS, IN FACT, because we are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values then.   :-\  Why would we have ever bothered to put those items in place... the Ten Commandments in the Courtrooms, and use language like "O Ye, O Ye, the Supreme Court of the United States is now in session and may God save this honorable Court"? to open sessions in the Supreme Court??

You're right, Ozmo, it does matter how you look at it. 

Our nation was founded by Christians right?  It only makes sense that they would meld the 2 in many instances.  I don't disagree with you really.  I have not seen any thing in my life in these instances, crosses on city parks, "so help me God" in oaths etc... that i disagree with.  I'm for "christmas vacation" 

I just don't think it's a "organize attack on Christianity"  Maybe you aren't saying that exactly. 

I think we must start to do something about it when someone tells you you can't build a church in a city.  Until then, to me it's a waste of time and money to go after dumb stuff like the pledge of alligence.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 13, 2007, 11:00:33 AM
big deal - sample size of four is essentially meaningless.  Added to that - 2 of the four were not government entities but private organizations (I'm assuming).   I assume also that in the city council meeting that no one was forced to attend or pray.   Prayer before secular meetings or groups are largely a ceremonial formality.   

Hardly meaningless.  Of course no one was forced to pray, but if you had matters that were being voted on and needed to testify then you had to attend.  But that's not the point.  The fact that these liberal Democrats brought in a pastor to give a devotional and prayer speaks volumes of how important prayer and religion are in our society.  This is a Council that oversees more than 800,000 people.  I suspect that this happens with other entities in many other parts of the country.     
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 13, 2007, 06:01:27 PM
Hardly meaningless.  Of course no one was forced to pray, but if you had matters that were being voted on and needed to testify then you had to attend.  But that's not the point.  The fact that these liberal Democrats brought in a pastor to give a devotional and prayer speaks volumes of how important prayer and religion are in our society.  This is a Council that oversees more than 800,000 people.  I suspect that this happens with other entities in many other parts of the country.     

I'm sure it's very meaningful and speaks volumes to YOU but 4 non-random samples are no basis to draw any meaningful conclusion about anything.    Besides that, humans have a tendency to notice those things which confirm their preconceived beliefs (aka prejudice) and to not notice/ignore those which don't. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 13, 2007, 06:12:44 PM
I'm sure it's very meaningful and speaks volumes to YOU but 4 non-random samples are no basis to draw any meaningful conclusion about anything.    Besides that, humans have a tendency to notice those things which confirm their preconceived beliefs (aka prejudice) and to not notice/ignore those which don't. 

Your opinion.  I disagree.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 13, 2007, 06:28:02 PM
Your opinion.  I disagree.

for some reason I'm not surprised but my "opinion" (regarding methodology)  happens to be true.  Look up the term sampling error (or not - who cares really).    Like I said, I'm sure it's "speaks volumes" and is meaningful to you and if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy then good for you. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 13, 2007, 07:11:18 PM
for some reason I'm not surprised but my "opinion" (regarding methodology)  happens to be true.  Look up the term sampling error (or not - who cares really).    Like I said, I'm sure it's "speaks volumes" and is meaningful to you and if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy then good for you. 

Why would I look up "sampling error"?  I am expressing an opinion based on my personal observation/experience.  This isn't a scientific discussion.  I didn't do empirical research.  It's an opinion.  And I didn't say anything about being "warm and fuzzy."  Just something I found very interesting. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 13, 2007, 07:19:07 PM
Why would I look up "sampling error"?  I am expressing an opinion based on my personal observation/experience.  This isn't a scientific discussion.  I didn't do empirical research.  It's an opinion.  And I didn't say anything about being "warm and fuzzy."  Just something I found very interesting. 

Didn't I say that it was meaningful "TO YOU"?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: militarymuscle69 on April 13, 2007, 08:46:03 PM
Our nation was founded by Christians right?  It only makes sense that they would meld the 2 in many instances.  I don't disagree with you really.  I have not seen any thing in my life in these instances, crosses on city parks, "so help me God" in oaths etc... that i disagree with.  I'm for "christmas vacation" 

I just don't think it's a "organize attack on Christianity"  Maybe you aren't saying that exactly. 

I think we must start to do something about it when someone tells you you can't build a church in a city.  Until then, to me it's a waste of time and money to go after dumb stuff like the pledge of alligence.

you don't think that kids learning and reciting the pledge of allegience is important? If we let the idae of allegience to the american flag go by the way side, America will go right with it.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 04, 2007, 01:58:28 AM
Attended a fundraising event for cancer research this evening.  It started with prayer.  Attendees included state government officials (including our Lt. Gov.) and people from various segments of the community. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 25, 2007, 09:18:07 AM
The University of Hawaii football gathers for a team prayer, often with members of the opposing team, right after the games. 

There is also this from the best player in college football (Colt Brennan):  • Colt Brennan said the team has a lot of spiritual faith. He said with such diverse backgrounds, one religion is not pushed over another. It's just that that most share a faith in a higher being, and that helps unify the team.   http://blogs.honoluluadvertiser.com/index.php?blog=9
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 16, 2007, 10:12:02 AM
Terrific story about June Jones, his near fatal accident, and how his faith impacts his life.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071216/NEWS01/712160360/1001
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 24, 2007, 07:30:27 AM
More extensive article on the impact of prayer and faith on the UH football team.  The link has pictures showing players huddled in prayer. 

 
Posted on: Monday, December 24, 2007
Hawaii football team attributes wins to God

Video: How the Warriors "BELIEVE"

By Michael Tsai
Advertiser Staff Writer


   
"You can see it before and after every practice and every game," Watson said. "We pray and give glory to the one who makes it all possible for us."


Photos by RICHARD AMBO | The Honolulu Advertiser

   
Warriors Keala Watson, top, and Shane Austin gather with teammates for a group prayer after practice.
 
   
Senior wide receiver C.J. Hawthorne leads team prayers before and after games and practices. "Humility is an amazing thing," he says.

 
Each week, Solomon Elimimian would look out across the sweep of green-clad fans that slowly but surely packed Aloha Stadium this season, feel their thunderous applause as the pulse in his veins, feel the weight of their hope, their expectations and, yes, their belief.

And as his eyes scanned the great mass of bodies crowding the sticky, garbage-strewn bleachers, he'd see that word over and over again.

"Believe."

It was there on giant poster boards, on T-shirts, on the naked chests of pale, skinny classmates.

"We believe."

"I believe."

"Believe."

And while he appreciated the good will and sincerity of those messages, Elimimian, a gifted linebacker and devoted Christian, kept coming back to the same question.

"Believe what?" Elimimian said. "Believe in who?"

They are True Believers, these 2007 Warriors.

From head coach June Jones to Heisman finalist Colt Brennan to the unrecognized contributors who man the scout team, they are bonded not just by the goals they have set, the hours of toil and preparation they have invested to achieve them, and the perfect season that has been its vindication, but by a shared belief in the power of religious faith.

"We just happen to have a lot of Christian guys on this team, but we also have a lot of guys of all kinds of faiths," Jones said. "The principles of love and sacrifice are what really bond them together."

Many athletes lay claim to being men of God, but few teams have demonstrated such a collective insistence on using their successes on the field to achieve what they believe to be their true calling as athletes.

"You can see it before and after every practice and every game," said junior defensive lineman Keala Watson. "We pray and give glory to the one who makes it all possible for us. This team acts as a beacon of faith. We're an example of what can happen when you put your faith in God."

In the Watson household, religious faith was the breath and bread of everyday life. Growing up in Nanakuli, Watson followed along as his family attended church, observed regular family devotion days, and bowed their heads in daily prayer.

"I was immersed in it as a young child, and it's stayed with me," Watson said. "As an adult, I want to pass that along to my nieces and nephews, and hopefully to my own kids someday."

Watson said his faith saved him during his freshman year when Von Willebrand disorder, a rare condition similar to hemophilia, threatened to end his football career.

Watson redshirted that year, unsure if he would ever return as doctor after doctor delivered negative prognoses. As he confronted the loss of his dream, Watson said he lost sight of what he believed in.

"I thought my career was down the drain," he said. "I felt there was no hope for me and I kind of lost focus on what God had planned for me. It was all about what I wanted. But once I let him take control of my life again, he put everything back together."

With the help of a new doctor, who found a way to treat the condition with daily medication, Watson made his way back to the team and has become a rising force within the defensive unit.

Watson serves as an assistant pastor at Kahikolu Baptist Church in Wai'anae. In the Warrior locker room, it's Watson to whom teammates often turn for religious support and guidance.

It was Watson who last week rallied a dozen teammates to Hawaii Medical Center East to pray for redshirt freshman Vaughn Meatoga's mother, who was stricken with cancer. Lynette Meatoga died two days later.

"Our belief carries on to each of our lives," Watson said. "When (Meatoga's) mother passed, there were a lot of guys around to help lift him up. It was devastating for him, but he's doing better.

"There's a lot of love on this team."

DIVINE INTERVENTIONS

Like Watson, junior defensive back Desmond Thomas grew up in a Christian household.

"That was one of the reasons my mom wanted me to come here," Thomas said. "We have coaches who are Christians and believe in God. She loved that about this school. Love, belief, faith — those words characterize the whole team."

But despite his upbringing, Thomas said his religious faith had yet to blossom when he arrived on the Manoa campus. He was, in his own words, "just out there in the world doing my own thing."

And it wasn't working.

A standout safety and wide receiver at Vallejo High School in California, Thomas redshirted the 2004 season and saw action in just one game the following season. Frustrated at his lack of progress and opportunity, Thomas was considering transferring schools as he sat outside the Stan Sheriff Center one afternoon.

"And God sent somebody to talk to me — a homeless man," Thomas recalled. "He told me that great things are headed in my direction if I turn away from my evil ways and turn to God.

"It broke me," he said. "I was upset because I had always thought of myself as a player, and I wasn't playing. Then God snatched me up and I humbled myself."

Thomas put aside thoughts of transferring and eventually found his opportunity away from the offense. As a sophomore, he played all 14 games in the defensive backfield and on special teams.

This season, Thomas replaced Kaeo Monteilh as starting safety after Monteilh was lost for the season with a fractured left scapula.

Like Thomas, senior defensive back Jacob Patek would not connect the Christian values with which he was raised to a meaningful relationship with the higher power he acknowledged until he arrived in Hawai'i.

Patek grew up in Victoria, Texas, and played for Blinn Community College (Texas) for three seasons before transferring to Hawai'i.

"When I got here, I was a Christian but I was doing my own thing," Patek said. "It was tough being so far away from home and trying to battle through things."

Though embraced by his teammates and respected by his coaches for the defensive skills he possessed and the ferocity with which he applied them, Patek felt unmoored. For all of the power and determination he exhibited on the field, the displaced Texan found himself lonely and homesick in his private moments.

In retrospect, Patek said, it was the first step in kindling the religious faith that had laid dry within him.

"The Lord brought me out to this island, took me away from everything I had back at home, and broke me," Patek said. "There were times I'd break down crying and allow the Lord to work on me."

Patek said the reaffirmation of his faith allowed him to "grow into maturity," and to rein in the anger that so often festered and flared inside him.

And like so many of his teammates, Patek now interprets the good in his life as fruits of his belief. He credits prayer for curing the mysterious sores that lingered on his arm for weeks. He attributes his quick recovery from a high ankle sprain (suffered initially in a game against Boise State and re-aggravated a week later versus Washington) to "his divine power."

"No matter what happens, whether we win or lose, we give God his glory because he's blessed us with the opportunity to play the game of football, where other people might not have that opportunity."

A HIGHER POWER

Humility is a powerful and at times liberating concept for athletes, but not one that is always easily grasped.

Senior wide receiver C.J. Hawthorne may not have had a clear vision of how his collegiate career would unfold when he left the comfort and security of Mississippi for exotic Hawai'i, but he was confident that it wouldn't involve riding the pine.

At St. Martin High School in Owen Springs, he was a standout in basketball and track, and earned all-state honors in football. After a stint at Southwest Gulf Coast Community College, Hawthorn transferred to Mississippi Gulf Coast Community College and helped lead the team to a league championship in 2005.

But in Hawai'i, with talented veterans ahead of him on the offense, Hawthorne would have to make the switch to cornerback. After five so-so starts, Hawthorne was relegated to the bench.

"Back home, I was the star," Hawthorne said. "I was the man. Then I came here and for the first time in my life I had to take the bench. It was real hard. The biggest test was learning not to get jealous or bitter about things."

His adjustment off the field came no easier.

"In Mississippi, I was so comfortable and I was in the same rut of doing whatever, seeing the same guys and wanting to go out," he said. "It took getting out here and getting along by myself to realize I'm better than that. I was playing Division I football and I was poor, lonely, depressed in my room. I knew there had to be something bigger than this."

And so, like so many of his teammates, Hawthorne reached back to his Bible Belt roots in search of an answer.

Hawthorne, who now leads prayers before and after games and practices, said that with the deepening of his religious faith came a sense of humility and proportion.

"Humility is an amazing thing," he said. "Look at almost every championship team. Even if they fail to acknowledge God, you definitely see a humility and an ability to do something for one another, even when it's something you don't want to do.

"As a team, our faith has allowed us to humble ourselves and become even closer as a unit," he said.

TEAM OF DESTINY?

That word again.

Wherever Elimimian goes these days, it's there. Painted onto driveways. Shaved on heads. Spelled out in Christmas lights.

"I look around and I see 'Believe, believe,' " Elimimian said. "But what do they mean? If they believe in us, that's a start, but that's not what it's really about. When we win, it's not about us, it's about getting people saved. Our going 12-0 isn't about us, it's about the glory of God and getting people to acknowledge that God is our savior."

Salvation. Glory. Savior. Words that might chill a more secular room flow freely from Elimimian's lips because in this athletic facility, in the penultimate moment of this most stirring of seasons, it is safe to speak the language of faith.

To be sure, not every Warrior is as deeply religious as Elimimian or Hawthorne or Thomas. Yet, whatever their faith or belief or opinion, there is permeating the team a feeling that what they've achieved this season resonates beyond the obvious.

Elimimian, a measured and deliberate thinker, believes the perfect record, the Western Athletic Conference championship and the Sugar Bowl berth are means, not ends, to his God's true intention.

How else, Elimimian asks, can one account for the myriad ways in which this particular group of coaches and players found themselves together right here, right now?

"You look at all the guys that people in Hawai'i look up to — Colt, Davone (Bess), C.J., Adam Leonard — and each one has a story about how they got here," Elimimian said. "Colt had a long path from high school just to get here. Davone, too. My brother (all-WAC cornerback Abraham Elimimian) could have gone somewhere else but all the big schools dropped him when he hurt his ACL (anterior cruciate ligament). He was an instrument for me being here because if he hadn't come, I probably would not have either.

"You look at our Polynesian guys — guys like Timo Paepule, Michael Lafaele, Hercules Satele, Karl Noa, who give hope to kids in Hawai'i because they're so strong in their faith — they all have their stories, too. We all had long paths to get here. God put everything together, all these different pieces from different walks of life.

"God put us in the Sugar Bowl as the only 12-0 team to touch the nation and let people know the plan and the mercy that God has for us."

Hawthorne agrees.

"A lot of people think you can only preach from the pulpit, but there are a lot of platforms," he said. "We are each here for God to show that it's possible to love one another. It's not about being all religious, it's about loving each other."
 
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071224/NEWS01/712240346
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 20, 2008, 10:04:39 AM
Attended a dinner last night in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King.  Attended by a member of Congress, several state senators, a member of the Governor's cabinet, and various people from the community of all races.  The dinner started with prayer, given by a Hawaiian pastor in both English and Hawaiian. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 21, 2008, 12:25:47 PM
I missed this because I was travelling. 

MAYOR’S ANNUAL NEW YEAR’S PRAYER SERVICE   
 
Honolulu Mayor Mufi Hannemann, his wife, Gail, and members of the mayor’s staff and cabinet will gather Thursday evening, January 10th,  at Kawaihao Church for the Mayor’s Annual New Year’s Prayer Service.

“This will be our fourth annual prayer service,” Hannemann said, “and it’s become quite a tradition. It is a chance for people to give thanks, to pray for our city and for each other as we head into a new year.  Those who’ve attended in the past have expressed their warm appreciation for this event.”

The non-denominational service gets underway at 6:30 pm.  Several pastors and religious leaders from the local community will lead the congregation in prayer. Members of the public are cordially invited to attend. 

http://www.co.honolulu.hi.us/csd/publiccom/honnews08/newyearsprayerservice.htm
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Colossus_500 on January 21, 2008, 02:15:33 PM
It's nice to know that prayer isn't suppressed everywhere.  Thanks for posting, bro!   ;)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 21, 2008, 05:15:30 PM
It's nice to know that prayer isn't suppressed everywhere.  Thanks for posting, bro!   ;)

No problem mang.  It's everywhere.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 11, 2008, 05:15:27 PM
Recently received an e-mail inviting me to a prayer session for Hawaii's businesses.  Impressive list of participants.  It includes some of the largest businesses in Hawaii. 

HisBiz Ministries - A Christian Business Marketplace Ministry in Honolulu, Hawaii | www.HisBizWeb.org

Business Gate Prayer Session
Friday, May 16, 2008 @ 12:00-1:00 p.m.
Downtown Honolulu YWCA
1040 Richards St., 3rd floor

You're invited! Please join us as we pray specifically for God's covering and blessing upon each company and transformation of our workplaces in our State. Gathering in the name of Jesus, business people from companies and organizations across Hawaii unite in fellowship and prayer:

24 Hour Fitness
Adecco
Agor Architecture
Alexander & Baldwin
Anthology Marketing Group
Ascribe Data Systems
C12 Group
Cades Schutte
China Light
Consolidated Painting LLC
Core Systems Hawaii
Department of Business and Economic Development
Empowered Internet Solutions
FCA-Hawaii
First Hawaiian Bank
Group 70 International
Hawaii Dental Service
Hawaii Pacific Health
Hawaiian Electric Industries
Hawaiian Telecom
Honolulu City Council
IFC Corp
Kaneohe Ranch
Klevansky Piper Van Etten, LLP
KMH LLP
Laird Christianson Advertising
Lutheran Campus Ministry
McDonald's Restaurants of Hawaii
National Kidney Foundation of Hawaii
Office of the Attorney General
Office of the Lt. Governor
Pacific Lighting Service
Pacific Rim Bank
Pflueger Group
PHRI
Piilani Group
Queens Hospital
Roberts Hawaii
Sprint Hawaii
StarrTech Interactive
Tihati Productions
U.H. Poetic License
and more...
 

Secretaries, executives, and business professionals come together to fellowship and pray, shoulder-to-shoulder, in humility before our God to bring transformation to our companies, our workplace environment, our families, and our State. It is an extremely powerful time in the Lord's presence as we humble ourselves and continue to pray for our Hawaii and businesses that we work in.

This is not a Bible study or speaker series. Prayer is our focus. Come as you are and join us in worship and prayer to transform our workplaces for the Kingdom of Heaven.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Decker on May 12, 2008, 09:17:58 AM
It's nice to know that prayer isn't suppressed everywhere.  Thanks for posting, bro!   ;)
Private businesses can remove prayer from the workplace.

Government can remove proselytizing prayer from government funded locations and entities.

I mean, I don't want Vishnu shoved down my throat by Uncle Sam!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: 240 is Back on May 12, 2008, 09:39:42 AM
for some reason I'm not surprised but my "opinion" (regarding methodology)  happens to be true.  Look up the term sampling error

It's been well-established on here that Beach Bum doesn't understand nor believe in statistics.

If he's talking about something, it's because it's "his opinion" and numbers be damned.

You have a conservative moderator who is anti-2nd amendment, anti-1st amendment, who doesn't understand the most common tools used here (stats and math) and who derails good threads all the time. 

Look at the pile of shit on your plate.  2/3 delicious, and 1/3 shit.  It just ruins the whole meal.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 12, 2008, 11:41:35 AM
It's been well-established on here that Beach Bum doesn't understand nor believe in statistics.

If he's talking about something, it's because it's "his opinion" and numbers be damned.

You have a conservative moderator who is anti-2nd amendment, anti-1st amendment, who doesn't understand the most common tools used here (stats and math) and who derails good threads all the time. 

Look at the pile of shit on your plate.  2/3 delicious, and 1/3 shit.  It just ruins the whole meal.


 :)

(http://www.babyworld.co.uk/information/products/books/images/NCT_crying_baby.jpg)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 04, 2008, 10:09:57 PM
Both the Democrat and Republican conventions ended with prayer. 

Also, local boy gives credit where credit is due:

Updated at 6:12 p.m., Thursday, September 4, 2008

Bryan Clay tells convention his priorities are God, family, track
By Derrick DePledge
Advertiser Government Writer

(http://cmsimg.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=M1&Date=20080904&Category=BREAKING01&ArtNo=80904057&Ref=AR&MaxW=298&MaxH=358&Q=90&NoBorder)
ST. PAUL, Minn. — Hawai'i's Bryan Clay, a gold medalist in the decathlon at the Beijing Olympics, spoke to the Republican National Convention tonight about the importance of family values and working together.

The Castle High School graduate told delegates that while he is proud of his athletic achievement, his proudest accomplishment is being the father of Jacob and Katherine.

"For me, family values and family mean everything," Clay said of he and his wife, Sarah. "My priorities are God first, family second, track third.

"I can tell you that without faith in God and my support of my family and friends, and my strong work ethic, I would not be standing here before you today wearing this gold medal around my neck."

Clay said politicians and athletes have a lot in common because both are competitors who cannot win on their own.

He told the story of his fiercest rival, Roman Sebrle of the Czech Republic, who helped pace him through the 1,500-meter run and then celebrated Clay's victory with him afterward.

"Now the big difference between the decathlon and politics is that when my race ends, I go back home, relax, and start training for the next Olympics," he said. "But when the election ends, that's when the real work begins.

"Now whether your platform is a classroom, a conference room, a track, or the White House, we must all stay true to our principles. Whether you're a decathlete or a politician, we must stand together and believe in each other and this great nation."

Clay's appearance at the convention came out of a conversation with Gov. Linda Lingle at the state Capitol last Friday before the governor proclaimed "Bryan Clay Day," according to Lenny Klompus, the governor's senior adviser for communications.

The governor's office contacted convention organizers to help arrange Clay's appearance.

"He expressed his strong support for Sen. (John) McCain and the governor told him he would be an outstanding speaker," Klompus said.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080904/BREAKING01/80904057

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Deedee on September 04, 2008, 10:20:24 PM
Every person on earth has a more direct line to god than you do... you totally know it.  :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 04, 2008, 10:25:52 PM
Every person on earth has a more direct line to god than you do... you totally know it.  :)

What?  lol.  Have no idea what you're talking about. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Deedee on September 04, 2008, 10:31:27 PM
What?  lol.  Have no idea what you're talking about. 

Well you do need a vacation from this place.  :)  Even die hard libs wouldn't be here as much as you are.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 04, 2008, 10:34:39 PM
Well you do need a vacation from this place.  :)  Even die hard libs wouldn't be here as much as you are.

lol.  You're babbling Deedee.  Are you sleepy or something?  What does whatever point you're trying to make have to do with prayer and religion in public life?   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Deedee on September 04, 2008, 10:48:20 PM
lol.  You're babbling Deedee.  Are you sleepy or something?  What does whatever point you're trying to make have to do with prayer and religion in public life?   

I am?  It has to do with this... even I as a child knew that anyone who prays for personal reasons is lost. You're a fool BB if you think God favors you because you are you. And you're right.  I'm tired.  :)  You are the worst person on getbig. You are only here to change people. How is that anti homo thing working for you?




Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 04, 2008, 10:52:54 PM
I am?  It has to do with this... even I as a child knew that anyone who prays for personal reasons is lost. You're a fool BB if you think God favors you because you are you. And you're right.  I'm tired.  :)  You are the worst person on getbig. You are only here to change people. How is that anti homo thing working for you?


Yawn.   ::)  I'm not going to start denying invented facts, because that would make me as ignorant as you.  Buenos noches.  :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Deedee on September 04, 2008, 10:56:10 PM
Yawn.   ::)  I'm not going to start denying invented facts, because that would make me as ignorant as you.  Buenos noches.  :)

Good... go think about it.  ;)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 04, 2008, 10:56:56 PM
Good... go think about it.  ;)

No.   :-*
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Deedee on September 04, 2008, 11:04:39 PM
No.   :-*

i love you.   :)

And hope to not change you.  : Just make you be more loving of those around you of your own choice.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 04, 2008, 11:08:00 PM
i love you.   :)

And hope to not change you.  : Just make you be more loving of those around you of your own choice.


And you know so much about me.  Tell me more.  (Not.) 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Deedee on September 04, 2008, 11:25:31 PM
And you know so much about me.  Tell me more.  (Not.) 

Well I do like you BB, for all your faults.  :) I like you very much actually, but how come you don't spend more time with your daughters?  You come here like it's a religion. Just a question.





 

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 05, 2008, 12:09:20 AM
Well I do like you BB, for all your faults.  :) I like you very much actually, but how come you don't spend more time with your daughters?  You come here like it's a religion. Just a question.


Reminds me of the time you queried why people talk about abortion on a political discussion board.  Now you're asking me why I post on a political discussion board?  Because I like to talk politics? 

How much time do I spend with my daughters?  lol . . . You crack me up.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: youandme on September 05, 2008, 12:15:38 AM
Both the Democrat and Republican conventions ended with prayer. 

That is a relief. I remember when I was a member of the FCA, and it was just amazing how some individuals were against us saying a prayer before and after games.

I don't think I see many teams in High School or College pray these days, not talking about the touchdown prays either
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 05, 2008, 12:27:15 AM
That is a relief. I remember when I was a member of the FCA, and it was just amazing how some individuals were against us saying a prayer before and after games.

I don't think I see many teams in High School or College pray these days, not talking about the touchdown prays either

Check out page 2 of this thread.  There is a link and a story talking about prayer, June Jones, and the UH football team. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 13, 2008, 10:57:33 AM
Prayer is still a part of the UH football team:

After fulfilling academic obligations, Graunke was reinstated to the team a week before the Aug. 30 opener against Florida.

"It feels great," said Graunke, a fifth-year senior who spent the past three seasons as Colt Brennan's understudy. "I want to do my part for the team. If I'm the best guy for the team, which (the coaches have) decided, then that's the case. The Lord's blessed me with those talents and gifts. I'm playing for the team."

At the end of every practice, several Warriors gather in a circle and kneel in prayer. After Thursday's practice, linebacker Solomon Elimimian invited Graunke to join the circle — an action that also proved to be symbolic.

"I respect him for coming back and working hard and not giving up," said center John Estes, one of the four team captains. "I know a lot of people in that situation would have given up. He already had my respect even before he went through all of that. I was here when he was the quarterback and Colt kind of took his (starting) spot. I had respect for him when he was second string. He won some games for us last year. I know he's ready to play."

. . .

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080913/SPORTS0201/809130340/1032
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 10, 2009, 12:22:12 PM
Florida QB makes 'John 3:16' hottest Google search
Tebow inscribed Bible reference on eye black for championship game
Posted: January 09, 2009
11:35 am Eastern

© 2009 WorldNetDaily

(http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images/headshots/tebowjohn316.jpg)
Florida quarterback Tim Tebow blazes New Testament verse of John 3:16 on his face last night after he led the Gators to the BCS National Championship


"John 3:16" has appeared in various forms at nationally televised sporting events over the years, but after University of Florida quarterback Tim Tebow inscribed it on his eye black for last night's BCS National Championship game, the biblical reference became the most popular search item on Google.com.

Google Trends this morning had "John 3:16" ahead of searches for actress Mary Lynn Rajskub and the Windows 7 beta download. Searches for the Bible verse reached a peak during last night's game.

In previous games, Tebow, an outspoken evangelical Christian who was born to missionary parents in the Philippines, sported on his eye black Philippians 4:13, notes Christianity Today. The verse says, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

The well-known verse John 3:16 is commonly presented as a summation of the Gospel: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Tebow, who won the Heisman Trophy last year as a sophomore, led the Gators to a 24-14 victory last night over the University of Oklahoma.

Tebow and his four siblings were homeschooled by their parents, but a Florida law allowed him to play football for a public school team. He was named Florida's high school Player of the Year in both his junior and senior seasons and developed a reputation for toughness, finishing a game with a broken leg.

Google users, at one point, searched for "John 3:16" more than any other term

In an interview last year with the Florida Baptist Witness, Tebow said football is not even the third most important thing in his life.

"I am fortunate to have family members, coaches and teammates around who can help me stay focused on the right things for us to be successful," he said. "For me, every day includes four things: God, family, academics and football, in that order."

Tebow's "John 3:16" display last night drew attention in the blogosphere.

William Lobdell, author of "Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America - and Found Unexpected Peace," had a mixed reaction.

But he concluded: "I have to wonder if his coaches or NCAA officials would allow him to have 'There Is' 'No God' written on his eye black below his right and left eyes.

"I imagine that these personal slogans will soon be banned," he wrote.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85729
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 12, 2009, 05:22:04 PM
Class act.  He was great for the game.  Will be missed. 

Dungy will focus on family and faith
By Chris Mortensen
ESPN.com
Archive

Jason Bridge/US Presswire

Tony Dungy is ready to spend more time with his family at their home in Tampa, Fla.It was late Saturday night and the words flowed from Tony Dungy's lips like water from a spring. He was quoting his favorite book; not his best-selling "Quiet Strength," but, naturally, the Bible.

"I'm at a point, kind of like the Apostle Paul," explained Dungy, "he said, 'If I live, it's good. If I die and go home with the Lord, it's better.'"

Dungy sounded like a man who was prepared to go home -- in this case, Dungy will go home to his wife, Lauren, and family in Tampa, as well as home in an earthly sense to do what he calls the Lord's work with various ministry outreach programs that include work with troubled youths and convicted prisoners. For Dungy, right now, it is better to walk away from the game.

. . . .

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=mortensen_chris&id=3827287
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 20, 2009, 02:06:40 PM
Obama's Day Starts With Church, Coffee with Bush

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:13 AM

WASHINGTON — As massive crowds swarmed the National Mall on Tuesday to witness Barack Obama's inauguration as president, the man at the center of the maelstrom began the day quietly and reverently, at a church service across the street from the White House.

Obama and his family attended a private service at St. John's Episcopal Church, a tradition for those about to become president. The family of Vice President-elect Joe Biden also attended.

The Obamas waved to bystanders, then entered the church to applause from about 200 people. The choir and congregation began singing the hymn, "O God Our Help in Ages Past."
 
. . . .

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/obama_church_bush/2009/01/20/173227.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 21, 2009, 11:15:42 AM
Obama Begins Day With National Prayer Service

By Michelle Boorstein, Debbi Wilgoren and Jacqueline L. Salmon
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, January 21, 2009; 11:32 AM

On his first full day in office, President Obama spent part of the morning at the Washington National Cathedral, placing his own stamp on the traditional National Prayer Service with a larger-than-usual group of interfaith religious leaders participating and newly written prayers meant to emphasize liberty and diversity.

The invitation-only service, which has followed presidential inaugurals in the United States on and off since George Washington's swearing-in, started just after 10 a.m. and continued for nearly an hour and a half.

Obama and first lady Michelle Obama, who wore a bold black-and-silver patterned dress, walked into the stately church with Vice President Biden and his wife, Jill Biden. They took seats in the front row alongside Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), Obama's nominee for secretary of state, and her husband, former president Bill Clinton.

So many members of Congress were scheduled to attend the service that a markup session scheduled for attorney general nominee Eric H. Holder Jr. was postponed.

The list of 20 clergy participating in the service included Rev. Samuel Lloyd, dean of the cathedral, which is the seat of the Episcopal Church in Washington; Rev. Otis Moss Jr., a prominent Baptist pastor whose son is pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, Obama's former church; Washington Catholic Archbishop Donald Wuerl; Rev. Jim Wallis of the progressive group Sojourners; and several well-known Jewish, Muslim and Greek Orthodox leaders.

The District-based Children of the Gospel Choir entertained the assembled dignitaries and guests by singing "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."

The sermon was delivered by Rev. Sharon Watkins, president of the Protestant denomination Disciples of Christ in North America and the first woman to have such a prominent role in the post-inaugural prayer service.

Watkins quoted a wide range of religious leaders and traditions, from Gandhi to Islam to Cherokee Indians, urging the new president to remain focused on ethical and religious values such as common good, justice and compassion.

"In times such as these, we the people need you, the leaders of the nation, to be guided by the counsel that Isaiah gave so long ago," she said. "This is the Biblical way. It is also the American way."

She told Obama, "With your swearing-in, Mr. President, the flame of America's promise burns just a little brighter for every child in this land." There is much work to do, and some of it will "tend to draw you away from your ethical center," she said.

"But we need you to hold the ground of your deepest values, of our deepest values," Watkins said. "We need you to stay focused on our shared hopes, so that we can continue to hope, too. We will follow your lead."

Moss, offering a prayer in his rich baritone, asked God to "teach us each day that we live in a nation of neighbors on an island commissioned to glorify your name, in a community that is global. We have been taught through your servant that we are all connected, impacted by what we do and what we refuse to do."

. . . .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/01/21/ST2009012101096.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 09, 2009, 06:12:44 PM
Hawaii Prayer Breakfast offers blessings for leaders
Advertiser Staff

Michelle Vandenburg, mother of Olympic decathlon gold medalist Bryan Clay, was the featured speaker at this morning's 30th Hawaii Prayer Breakfast.

Several hundred people — including Gov. Linda Lingle, members of her administration, county mayors, state legislators and leaders from business, military and faith-based communities attended the event at the Hilton Hawaiian Village.

Vandenburg, who raised Clay in Kaneohe after she and Clay's father divorced, told the audience about how her faith helped her persevere.

Clay, a Castle High graduate who won gold at the Beijing Games, appeared in a videotaped message.

The Hawaii Prayer Breakfast is held annually to pray for leaders, regardless of political or religious affiliation.

Kahu Curt Kekuna of Kawaiahao Church provided the blessing.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090409/BREAKING/90409065
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 09, 2009, 09:37:55 PM
Hawaii Prayer Breakfast offers blessings for leaders
Advertiser Staff

Michelle Vandenburg, mother of Olympic decathlon gold medalist Bryan Clay, was the featured speaker at this morning's 30th Hawaii Prayer Breakfast.

Several hundred people — including Gov. Linda Lingle, members of her administration, county mayors, state legislators and leaders from business, military and faith-based communities attended the event at the Hilton Hawaiian Village.

Vandenburg, who raised Clay in Kaneohe after she and Clay's father divorced, told the audience about how her faith helped her persevere.

Clay, a Castle High graduate who won gold at the Beijing Games, appeared in a videotaped message.

The Hawaii Prayer Breakfast is held annually to pray for leaders, regardless of political or religious affiliation.

Kahu Curt Kekuna of Kawaiahao Church provided the blessing.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090409/BREAKING/90409065

no shit?

a bunch of people got together and prayed?

weird
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 09, 2009, 09:39:57 PM
Yep.  "Gov. Linda Lingle, members of her administration, county mayors, state legislators and leaders from business, military and faith-based communities attended the event at the Hilton Hawaiian Village."  Pretty accomplished bunch of people.  And to think nearly all (without exaggeration) of our "state legislators" are Democrats. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 09, 2009, 09:55:19 PM
Yep.  "Gov. Linda Lingle, members of her administration, county mayors, state legislators and leaders from business, military and faith-based communities attended the event at the Hilton Hawaiian Village."  Pretty accomplished bunch of people.  And to think nearly all (without exaggeration) of our "state legislators" are Democrats. 

ok

then what?

people get together and "pray" all the time

so what?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on April 09, 2009, 10:07:37 PM
ok

then what?

people get together and "pray" all the time

so what?
I'm not getting the point either but he seems to be trying to make one.  Just say it BB, what's the point?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 09, 2009, 10:19:09 PM
I'm not getting the point either but he seems to be trying to make one.  Just say it BB, what's the point?

The title of the thread is "Prayer and Religion in Public Life."  I just posted a story about an annual prayer breakfast that is attended by most, if not all, of our state's political leaders and a substantial number of private sector leaders.  That's the only point.  Just like every other story I've posted in the thread.  Just examples of how deeply ingrained prayer and faith is in our society.  Nothing more than that.     
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 09, 2009, 10:20:25 PM
The title of the thread is "Prayer and Religion in Public Life."  I just posted a story about an annual prayer breakfast that is attended by most, if not all, of our state's political leaders and a substantial number of private sector leaders.  That's the only point.  Just like every other story I've posted in the thread.  Just examples of how deeply ingrained prayer and faith is in our society.  Nothing more than that.     

so you're basically saying people "pray" ...?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 09, 2009, 10:23:19 PM
I'm "basically saying" what I just said. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on April 09, 2009, 10:25:37 PM
well alrighty then :D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 09, 2009, 10:27:11 PM
The title of the thread is "Prayer and Religion in Public Life."  I just posted a story about an annual prayer breakfast that is attended by most, if not all, of our state's political leaders and a substantial number of private sector leaders.  That's the only point.  Just like every other story I've posted in the thread.  Just examples of how deeply ingrained prayer and faith is in our society.  Nothing more than that.     

yeah

people tend to do this "pray" thing

right?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 09, 2009, 10:29:48 PM
Yes they do.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 09, 2009, 10:31:49 PM
Yes they do.   :)

exactly

one question...

how can you tell when someone is faking it and just pretending to pray?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on April 09, 2009, 10:33:40 PM
lol
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: big L dawg on April 09, 2009, 10:34:53 PM
exactly

one question...

how can you tell when someone is faking it and just pretending to pray?


bingo.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Deicide on April 10, 2009, 06:07:55 AM
Shit, my life has changed now... :o
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 10, 2009, 07:57:30 AM
Shit, my life has changed now... :o

Don't worry.  I'm sure Bum will keep updating his pet thread whenever he reads a story about some group of people somewhere doing the public prayer thing.  Let's just be glad Bum is not muslim or he'd be updating this thread 5 times a day
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 10, 2009, 12:10:58 PM
I might go to this one.  Hope all of you enjoy your state sanctioned Good Friday holiday (assuming you have one).   :)

Public invited to Easter services at Schofield Barracks
Advertiser Staff

The public is invited to Easter sunrise services at Schofield Barracks.

The services will start at 6 a.m. at Stoneman Stadium.

Col. Jack Van Dyken, U.S. Army Pacific Command chaplain, will deliver the service. There will also be music. Refreshments will follow.

Stoneman Stadium is located at the corner of McCornack Road and Leilehua Avenue on Schofield Barracks. Guests should use the McNair Gate and follow posted directions.

Drivers will need to show their license, registration, proof of insurance and valid photo ID for each occupant in the vehicle.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090410/BREAKING/90410011
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 10, 2009, 05:30:36 PM
I might go to this one.  Hope all of you enjoy your state sanctioned Good Friday holiday (assuming you have one).   :)

Bum - how do you figure this is a "state sanctioned" holiday?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 10, 2009, 11:30:09 PM
Bum - how do you figure this is a "state sanctioned" holiday?

     §8-1  Holidays designated.  The following days of each year are set apart and established as state holidays:

     The first day in January, New Year's Day;

     The third Monday in January, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Day;

     The third Monday in February, Presidents' Day;

     The twenty-sixth day in March, Prince Jonah Kuhio Kalanianaole Day;

     The Friday preceding Easter Sunday, Good Friday;

     The last Monday in May, Memorial Day;

     The eleventh day in June, King Kamehameha I Day;

     The fourth day in July, Independence Day;

     The third Friday in August, Statehood Day;

     The first Monday in September, Labor Day;

     The eleventh day in November, Veterans' Day;

     The fourth Thursday in November, Thanksgiving Day;

     The twenty-fifth day in December, Christmas Day;

     All election days, except primary and special election days, in the county wherein the election is held;

     Any day designated by proclamation by the President of the United States or by the governor as a holiday.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol01_Ch0001-0042F/HRS0008/HRS_0008-0001.htm
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 11, 2009, 07:45:50 AM
gotcha - you're talking about Hawaii and not the US Govt (which does not recognize it as a holiday)

What do you do to celebrate Prince Jonah Kuhio Kalanianaole Day?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 20, 2009, 03:54:29 PM
Attended a session of the state senate today and they started with a devotional and prayer.  The prayer was in the name of [gasping] "Jesus Christ our Lord."  Not sure if they invite members of other faiths.  Interesting question. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 20, 2009, 04:44:52 PM
Attended a session of the state senate today and they started with a devotional and prayer.  The prayer was in the name of [gasping] "Jesus Christ our Lord."  Not sure if they invite members of other faiths.  Interesting question. 

What happened after the prayer?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 20, 2009, 06:29:48 PM
What happened after the prayer?

They voted on bills. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 20, 2009, 09:27:24 PM
They voted on bills. 

do they do the prayer every time they open a session?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 21, 2009, 11:20:22 AM
do they do the prayer every time they open a session?

I'm pretty sure they do, as does our House of Representatives and City Council.  Also, there are only 2 Republicans (out of 25 Senators) in the State Senate. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: LurkerNoMore on April 21, 2009, 12:56:27 PM
What happened after the prayer?

They sat around waiting for what they asked for to be delivered.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 21, 2009, 11:55:49 PM
I'm pretty sure they do, as does our House of Representatives and City Council.  Also, there are only 2 Republicans (out of 25 Senators) in the State Senate. 

So it's basically a perfunctory or even perhaps a ceremonial procedure

What is the significance of the number of Repubs/Dems/Independents to you?

Will you be updating this thread every time the state senate does this?

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 22, 2009, 11:49:07 AM
So it's basically a perfunctory or even perhaps a ceremonial procedure

What is the significance of the number of Repubs/Dems/Independents to you?

Will you be updating this thread every time the state senate does this?



No, it's a devotional and prayer.

The significance of the party makeup to me is how prayer and faith in public life crosses party lines. 

I'll be updating this thread every time I read, hear, or experience something that I think is relevant to the thread.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on April 22, 2009, 11:08:53 PM
No, it's a devotional and prayer.

The significance of the party makeup to me is how prayer and faith in public life crosses party lines. 

I'll be updating this thread every time I read, hear, or experience something that I think is relevant to the thread.   


Bum - this sounds like nothing more than a typical and (as I previously said) perfunctory and ceremonial task.

Why do you think "party lines" are so significant?  Are you amazed that people other than Republicans might pray? 

Don't you think there are some non-christians (jews, muslims, atheist, etc...) sitting in that room waiting for the mumbo jumbo to be over with so they can get down to business?   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 06, 2009, 11:58:47 AM
The Appeaser in Chief at work again. 

Obama tones down National Day of Prayer observance
By Kristi Keck
     
(CNN) -- For the past eight years, the White House recognized the National Day of Prayer with a service in the East Room, but this year, President Obama decided against holding a public ceremony.

"Prayer is something that the president does everyday," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Tuesday, noting that Obama will sign a proclamation to recognize the day, as many administrations in the past have done.

Asked if Obama thought his predecessor's ceremonies were politicized, Gibbs said, "No, I'm not going to get into that again.

"I think the president understands, in his own life and in his family's life, the role that prayer plays."

The National Day of Prayer is an annual observance for people of all faiths.

Under the Bush administration, the White House hosted an interfaith service each year, inviting protestant, Catholic and Jewish leaders for an event at the East Room.

President Ronald Reagan and President George H.W. Bush also marked the day with a White House observance.

President Harry Truman first established the day as a national event in 1952. Reagan signed a resolution in 1988 to observe the National Day of Prayer each year on the first Thursday in May, and each president since has recognized this day with a proclamation.

The National Day of Prayer Task Force, a privately funded organization that focuses on mobilizing the Christian community, says it's disappointed in this year's toned down observance, but other groups say the president needs to go a step farther -- and ignore the day altogether.

"It's not his job to tell people to pray," said David Silverman, national spokesperson for the organization American Atheists.

"We are very happy he did away with the George W. Bush-era celebrations and party, but we wish he wouldn't do it at all. ... When church and state are separate, separate is separate," he said.

Although there are no public events scheduled at the White House, representatives from the legislative and judicial branches are expected to attend an event the National Day of Prayer Task Force is holding on Capitol Hill.

But, despite numerous attempts to get a representative from the executive office to attend, "it doesn't appear they are going to fulfill our request," said Becky Armstrong, marketing and media manager of the National Day of Prayer Task Force.

"The White House is a small part of what the national day of prayer is all about. Tomorrow there will be dozens of events held in our nation's capitol and governors from all 50 states have already issued proclamations recognizing the National Day of Prayer," Armstrong said.

"It would be belittling to those millions of people to reduce this day to merely one event not being held at the White House."

Task Force Chairman Shirley Dobson said in a statement that she was disappointed in the "lack of participation" by the Obama administration, adding that "at this time in our country's history, we would hope our President would recognize more fully the importance of prayer."

Dobson will be a presenter at that event, along with her husband and former president of Focus on the Family James Dobson, author Beth Moore, NFL player Shaun Alexander and Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/06/obama.prayer/index.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 25, 2010, 11:21:38 AM
Obama has prayer with Billy Graham.  Good decision.   :)

Obama meets with Rev. Billy Graham
By the CNN Wire Staff
April 25, 2010


Asheville, North Carolina (CNN) -- President Obama on Sunday met with the Rev. Billy Graham before leaving North Carolina to attend the memorial service for 29 West Virginia coal miners killed in a recent explosion.
White House spokesman Bill Burton said the visit was a follow-up to Obama's telephone call to Graham on the evangelist's 91st birthday last November. At that time, Burton said, the two agreed to meet as soon as possible.

Before Sunday's meeting, Burton described Graham as an important spiritual leader and said Obama was sure to pray with him during the visit.

Obama and his family vacationed in Asheville over the weekend, and the first couple played tennis Sunday morning before their departure, Burton said.

The meeting with Graham came three days after the Army rescinded an invitation for Graham's son, Franklin Graham, to speak at the Pentagon on the upcoming National Day of Prayer. The Army decision was due to controversial comments about Islam by the younger Graham.

"True Islam cannot be practiced in this country," Franklin Graham told CNN's Campbell Brown last December. "You can't beat your wife. You cannot murder your children if you think they've committed adultery or something like that, which they do practice in these other countries."

Graham later tried to temper his remarks by saying that he had Muslim friends.

Graham said he regretted the Army's decision but stood by his comments.

"I don't like the way they treat women, the way they treat minorities. I just find it horrific. But I love the people of Islam," he said, adding some of his work has been in Muslim nations.

The Army, which oversees the National Day of Prayer ceremonies at the Pentagon, feared that if Graham spoke at the Pentagon on May 6, Islamic militants would publicize his comments, potentially fueling tensions in Muslim nations like Iraq and Afghanistan, where U.S. troops are deployed.

Graham's invitation was not the only controversy swirling about the National Day of Prayer this year.

Last week, a federal judge struck down as unconstitutional the 1952 law that established the day, saying it violated the ban on government-backed religion.

On Thursday, the Justice Department informed a federal appeals court that the Obama administration will appeal that decision.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/25/obama.graham/index.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 06, 2010, 11:24:26 AM
 :)

National Day of Prayer is on, despite court ruling
By Linda Feldmann, Staff writer / May 6, 2010

Washington
Thursday, May 6, is the National Day of Prayer, as proclaimed by President Obama. But this year, the annual ritual that began in 1952 is taking place amid controversy.

Last month, a federal judge in Wisconsin ruled that the US law directing the president to proclaim such a day violates the First Amendment, which prohibits government establishment of religion. US District Judge Barbara Crabb also said it was OK to proceed with the National Day of Prayer, pending appeals.

On April 22, the Obama administration appealed Judge Crabb’s ruling to the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago.

But, like last year, Mr. Obama himself will not hold any official prayer day observance at the White House. His predecessor, George W. Bush, had held an annual interfaith observance in the East Room of the White House.

Last year, when Obama decided to limit the White House’s involvement to a proclamation, an urban legend was born: Obama had “canceled” the National Day of Prayer. Not so, the White House said. The myth-busting website Snopes.com has a page devoted to the topic. It’s not that the White House is opposed to prayer, Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said last year. “Prayer is something that the president does every day,” he added, noting that it is private.

The National Day of Prayer Task Force, a privately funded group with strong ties to the Evangelical Christian movement, is fighting back against the judge’s ruling and circulating a petition.

“The National Day of Prayer provides an opportunity for all Americans to pray voluntarily according to their own faith – it does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment,” task force chairwoman Shirley Dobson said in a statement.

Groups around the country will hold observances on Thursday marking the National Day of Prayer, as in years past. Though the tradition was formalized in 1952, with a congressional resolution calling on the president to proclaim such a day, there were national days of prayer long before then.

Opponents of the day of prayer argue that the proclamation makes them feel as if the government is telling them to engage in a religious activity. Atheists, in particular, object to a government prayer proclamation that assumes a universal belief in God.

Obama’s proclamation designating May 6, 2010, as a National Day of Prayer acknowledges the religious diversity of the United States – within the universe of monotheism.

“I call upon the citizens of our Nation to pray, or otherwise give thanks, in accordance with their own faiths and consciences, for our many freedoms and blessings, and I invite all people of faith to join me in asking for God’s continued guidance, grace, and protection as we meet the challenges before us,” the proclamation states.

Religion was a complicated issue in the Obama presidential campaign, and has remained so in his presidency. During the campaign, his long-time pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, seemed to threaten Obama’s chances at winning the Democratic nomination after videotapes emerged showing the pastor using incendiary language. Obama then delivered a memorable speech on faith that appeared to put the issue to rest.

Obama grew up with no faith tradition but embraced Christianity as an adult. Now, as president, he regularly delivers sermon-like speeches, in addition to delivering euglogies, as he did for civil rights leader Dorothy Height last week. On Feb. 4, Obama spoke about the power of prayer to foster civility and bridge divisions, in an address to the National Prayer Breakfast. But Obama and his family have not been regular church-goers since moving to Washington.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0506/National-Day-of-Prayer-is-on-despite-court-ruling
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 21, 2011, 09:39:40 AM
More efforts to appease a handful of cry babies. 

Senate drops rule requiring invocation
By B.J. Reyes
POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Jan 21, 2011

A day after opening the 2011 session with an invocation from entertainer Danny Kaleikini, the state Senate adopted rules to do away with the tradition of beginning its daily sessions with a word of prayer or other such appeals.

By unanimous voice vote yesterday, senators adopted rules that omitted a previous section stipulating each day's session start with an invocation. The session began without one.

House leaders, meanwhile, were still drafting their chamber rules with the issue under careful scrutiny. Members opened yesterday's session with Rep. Pono Chong performing the invocation. Chong (D, Maunawili-Kaneohe) asked only that members observe a moment of silence for personal reflection.

A three-member Senate committee last year looked into the invocation practice after the American Civil Liberties Union of Hawaii wrote to both the Senate and state House in August with complaints about "decidedly Christian prayers."

That followed the arrest last April of a protester who disrupted a Senate invocation. Mitch Kahle, president of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of Church and State, was acquitted of disorderly conduct in November and is now suing the Senate and state sheriffs, alleging he was assaulted and improperly detained.

Senate rules previously included language stating: "Each day's sitting of the Senate shall open with an invocation."

Sen. Brickwood Galuteria, majority leader, said the new rules are flexible and allow the chamber to include invocations at its discretion, such as for opening day.

"The Senate will continue to explore the issue and can develop a policy for the proper implementation of invocations that is constitutionally sound," said Galuteria (D, Downtown-Waikiki).

Only Sen. Sam Slom, the chamber's lone Republican, voiced opposition to the exclusion of invocations.

"I think it's important that we stress the need that as smart as we may be, as intelligent as we may be, that we can still call on someone higher to help us and guide us," said Slom (R, Diamond Head-Hawaii Kai). "I think for us to take this out of our rules and also to, by omission, tell the community that we no longer think that this is important — I think that this is a mistake."

The Senate invocation committee recommended a new policy that would have allowed the invocations to continue, with restrictions, including that they be nonsectarian and make no reference to particular deities or central religious figures.

Senators ultimately decided to do away with the invocations rather than implement difficult-to-enforce restrictions.

The U.S. Supreme Court in 1983 ruled legislative invocations are constitutional, because such prayers are deeply embedded in the history and tradition of the nation.

Rep. Blake Oshiro, House majority leader, said leadership was not looking at abolishing the practice, but instead was seeking guidance from the Attorney General's Office. Once the rules are drafted, they would be put to the full chamber for a vote.

"We do want to make sure that we are within the permissible legal, constitutional boundaries that have been set by courts," said Oshiro (D, Aiea-Halawa).

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110121_Senate_drops_rule_requiring_invocation.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on January 21, 2011, 09:50:32 AM
More efforts to appease a handful of cry babies. 

Senate drops rule requiring invocation
By B.J. Reyes
POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Jan 21, 2011

A day after opening the 2011 session with an invocation from entertainer Danny Kaleikini, the state Senate adopted rules to do away with the tradition of beginning its daily sessions with a word of prayer or other such appeals.

By unanimous voice vote yesterday, senators adopted rules that omitted a previous section stipulating each day's session start with an invocation. The session began without one.
House leaders, meanwhile, were still drafting their chamber rules with the issue under careful scrutiny. Members opened yesterday's session with Rep. Pono Chong performing the invocation. Chong (D, Maunawili-Kaneohe) asked only that members observe a moment of silence for personal reflection.

A three-member Senate committee last year looked into the invocation practice after the American Civil Liberties Union of Hawaii wrote to both the Senate and state House in August with complaints about "decidedly Christian prayers."

That followed the arrest last April of a protester who disrupted a Senate invocation. Mitch Kahle, president of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of Church and State, was acquitted of disorderly conduct in November and is now suing the Senate and state sheriffs, alleging he was assaulted and improperly detained.

Senate rules previously included language stating: "Each day's sitting of the Senate shall open with an invocation."

Sen. Brickwood Galuteria, majority leader, said the new rules are flexible and allow the chamber to include invocations at its discretion, such as for opening day.

"The Senate will continue to explore the issue and can develop a policy for the proper implementation of invocations that is constitutionally sound," said Galuteria (D, Downtown-Waikiki).

Only Sen. Sam Slom, the chamber's lone Republican, voiced opposition to the exclusion of invocations.

"I think it's important that we stress the need that as smart as we may be, as intelligent as we may be, that we can still call on someone higher to help us and guide us," said Slom (R, Diamond Head-Hawaii Kai). "I think for us to take this out of our rules and also to, by omission, tell the community that we no longer think that this is important — I think that this is a mistake."

The Senate invocation committee recommended a new policy that would have allowed the invocations to continue, with restrictions, including that they be nonsectarian and make no reference to particular deities or central religious figures.

Senators ultimately decided to do away with the invocations rather than implement difficult-to-enforce restrictions.

The U.S. Supreme Court in 1983 ruled legislative invocations are constitutional, because such prayers are deeply embedded in the history and tradition of the nation.

Rep. Blake Oshiro, House majority leader, said leadership was not looking at abolishing the practice, but instead was seeking guidance from the Attorney General's Office. Once the rules are drafted, they would be put to the full chamber for a vote.

"We do want to make sure that we are within the permissible legal, constitutional boundaries that have been set by courts," said Oshiro (D, Aiea-Halawa).

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110121_Senate_drops_rule_requiring_invocation.html

by unanimous vote

we haven't seen that too often recently
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2011, 07:35:32 AM
Not sure if Senator Slom (the only Republican in the senate) participated, but at least eight of them were Democrats.  Too bad the senate is trying to appease one paranoid anti-religious extremist (Mitch Kahle). 

Nine state senators pray before session starts
By Mark Niesse
Associated Press

POSTED: 09:39 p.m. HST, Jan 26, 2011

A group of nine Hawaii senators held hands, bowed their heads and sought God's blessing today, signaling that they'll still pray despite a vote last week to abandon official invocations.

Fears of court challenges compelled the state Senate to end prayers, making it the first legislative body in the nation to do so.

The informal prayer today took place in the Senate chamber before the daily lawmaking session, convened in such a way so as not to contradict the decision to remove invocations from Senate business.

"The message is that not all senators have eliminated prayer," said Sen. Will Espero (D, Ewa-Ewa Beach-Lower Waipahu), who organized the group. "We're well within the confines of the law."

The 25-member Senate changed its rules in a unanimous voice vote last Thursday to end prayers after the American Civil Liberties Union sent lawmakers a letter complaining that the invocations often referenced Jesus Christ, contravening the separation of church and state.

Senate leaders said they wanted to avoid the potential for breaking the law, but lawmakers who participated in the quiet prayer today said their faith has a place in their work.

"It's nice to start off the day with a prayer because we need all the help we can get," said Sen. Mike Gabbard (D, Kalaeloa-Makakilo).

The ACLU of Hawaii declined to comment today. The ACLU previously has said the Senate's action to remove prayers helps create an environment where everyone feels welcome regardless of spiritual beliefs.

Senate President Shan Tsutsui, who did not participate in the prayer session, said he condoned their independent movement to keep prayer alive.

"It's a matter of free speech," said Tsutsui (D, Wailuku-Kahului). "We do encourage members, at their own will and desire, to go ahead and engage in prayer."

He said prayers could be held in the Senate in the future because the chamber's rules are silent on the issue following last week's vote.

The brief prayer asked God to bless senators' choices and sought guidance to do right for the people they represent, said participant Sen. Pohai Ryan (D, Lanikai-Waimanalo).

"Government and faith should be separate. But just because I voted against it doesn't mean I'm not a spiritual person," Ryan said.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/114704719.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on January 29, 2011, 10:06:54 AM
Since this was passed with a unanimous vote obviously the majority of the Senate thought this was the right thing to do.

Other than you saying so, I see no evidence this protestor was paranoid or an extremist.   In fact he was exercising his first ammendment right and he was acquited  on all charges

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2011, 10:49:26 AM
KNIGHT: Appeasing the gods, Hawaii style
State government throws Jesus off a cliff
By Robert Knight -The Washington Times
Tuesday, January 25, 2011

In the state where pagan natives once threw people off cliffs to placate the gods, the Hawaiian state Senate has voted to end the practice of opening its sessions with prayer.

It’s probably just silly Internet prattle that some of the more intemperate civil liberties advocates want to follow this up by throwing pastors into Kilauea, the volcano home of the fire goddess Pele.

The Jan. 21 vote came after the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) threatened to sue because of a single complaint by Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church.

The sticking point is that some speakers invoke Jesus, which sends the ACLU into a bout of “separation of church and state anxiety syndrome.” It seems that they are functionally “anti-Christ.”

The phrase “separation of church and state,” of course, appears nowhere in the U.S. Constitution and was derived from a Jan. 1, 1802, letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury, Conn., Baptist Association assuring them that no particular Christian denomination would be declared a state religion. The liberal U.S. Supreme Court picked up on this nearly a century-and-a-half later and concocted an extraconstitutional doctrine that the ACLU has wielded like a pineapple scythe against public religious symbols or prayers.

During the period he sent the letter, Jefferson attended weekly Christian services held in the House of Representatives. No historical text as far as I know includes references during those services to Pele or to Buddha or even to Islam. Frequent mention, however, was made of Jesus Christ, since the overwhelming majority of the Founders and the legislators at the time were professing Christians.

According to the Associated Press, the Hawaii Senate is the first state Senate to ban prayer. In 2008, the 7thU.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a 2005 ruling by U.S. District Judge David Hamilton that had barred the Indiana House from mentioning Jesus in opening prayers.

President Obama then appointed Judge Hamilton to the same court that had overturned Judge Hamilton‘s ruling, and the U.S. Senate confirmed him 59-39 on Nov. 19, 2009. The sole Republican “yes” vote? Indiana’s own Sen. Richard G. Lugar.

The ACLU‘s determination to silence prayer in the Hawaii Senate chamber contrasts with their own indifference in 2009, when the Hawaii Senate approved a resolution declaring Sept. 24, 2009, to be “Islam Day” on a 22-3 vote. The Senate‘s mighty Republican bloc of two rejected it, along with a single Democrat who worried about church-state separation.

When legislators celebrate Islam, that’s “multiculturalism.” When they allow individuals to pray according to their own faiths, that’s unconstitutional establishment of religion. It makes perfect sense if you think about it long enough to make your head hurt.

On Jan. 21, the GOP Hawaii Senate bloc of one - Sam Slom - argued for making prayers voluntary, rather than getting rid of them entirely. “As intelligent as we may be, we can still call on someone higher to help us and guide us,” he argued in vain, ignoring the evidence that his assessment of the legislators’ collective IQ might be, well, overly generous.

Perhaps the Hawaii Senate could get around the whole thing by opening legislative sessions with invocations to Pele. They could call it a celebration of the Aloha State’s cultural heritage, and blunt ACLU objections by insisting they are referring to a currently famous person instead of the volcanic deity.

They could even present Pele with a commemorative soccer ball. That might appease him.

Robert Knight is senior writer for Coral Ridge Ministries and a senior fellow for the American Civil Rights Union.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/25/appeasing-the-gods-hawaii-style/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 11:00:36 AM
bb, it's clear what your focus is on here... move this to religious...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2011, 11:03:44 AM
Absolutely not.  This is clearly a political topic.  It's been on this board for three years. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on January 29, 2011, 11:19:11 AM
Bum - Do you feel that people who are opposed to the mixture of religion and politics are out to get religious people like yourself?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 11:21:47 AM
Absolutely not.  This is clearly a political topic.  It's been on this board for three years.  
Really?  You started this thread with your main point being about what an "integral part prayer is in our public life" and it looks like you've focused on that matter in one way or another.  Sounds like a topic for religious to me.  Hey that's what Ron told me, if it leans more religious, send it that way...  This absolutely leans more religious.

move it on over buddy :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 11:25:22 AM
If you don't want to do it, I can do it for you if you want :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2011, 11:27:42 AM
Really?  You started this thread with your main point being about what an "integral part prayer is in our public life" and it looks like you've focused on that matter in one way or another.  Sounds like a topic for religious to me.  Hey that's what Ron told me, if it leans more religious, send it that way...  This absolutely leans more religious.

move it on over buddy :)


Nope.  It's about the First Amendment.  If you don't like it, don't read it.  It's been here for years.  It stays.  Quit trying to start an unnecessary dispute.   

I'm sure you don't want your threads and posts moved.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on January 29, 2011, 11:28:49 AM
I'm still tyring to figure out the political relevance of Bum's thread about Lawrence Taylor being charged with statutory rape and solicitation of a prostitute
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on January 29, 2011, 11:30:57 AM
Nope.  It's about the First Amendment.  If you don't like it, don't read it.  It's been here for years.  It stays.  Quit trying to start an unnecessary dispute.   

I'm sure you don't want your threads and posts moved.   :)

nice job Bum - threaten him with possibility of moving his threads ..... on what grounds?

btw - the protestor in the Hawaiin Senate was exercising his first amendment rights which was why he was acquited.

Is that what you're referrring to ?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 11:39:32 AM
Nope.  It's about the First Amendment.  If you don't like it, don't read it.  It's been here for years.  It stays.  Quit trying to start an unnecessary dispute.   

I'm sure you don't want your threads and posts moved.   :)
actually for all I care you can start deleting or moving all of my posts/threads.  Seriously, I give you permission to start deleting my threads or posts as fast as you can manage.  I won't even say anything about it... No bitch will from me.  You can copy this post and show it to Ron if I complain. Move them or delete them at will as you wish. 

This thread's focus is on religion and you made that clear from the starting post.  Don't spew first amendment, everything on getbig is about the first Amerndemnt lol....  This thread needs to be moved and if you don't, I will. :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 11:42:33 AM
nice job Bum - threaten him with possibility of moving his threads ..... on what grounds?

btw - the protestor in the Hawaiin Senate was exercising his first amendment rights which was why he was acquited.

Is that what you're referrring to ?
seriously, he can delete my threads or move them as he wishes...  This thread doesn't belong here and if he wants to meltdown and move my threads, I'll just get a laugh out of it...

Go for it BB....
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 11:43:36 AM
Countdown to moved.... 3...2...

lol
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2011, 11:44:58 AM
actually for all I care you can start deleting or moving all of my posts/threads.  Seriously, I give you permission to start deleting my threads or posts as fast as you can manage.  I won't even say anything about it... No bitch will from me.  You can copy this post and show it to Ron if I complain. Move them or delete them at will as you wish. 

This thread's focus is on religion and you made that clear from the starting post.  Don't spew first amendment, everything on getbig is about the first Amerndemnt lol....  This thread needs to be moved and if you don't, I will. :)

I'm not moving the thread.  It has been here since 2007.  A number of people have posted in the thread.  It plainly deals with the First Amendment freedoms of speech and religion and their involvement in public life.  If you have a problem with the fact it deals with religion, then like I said, don't read it.  Pretty simple.  Same choice everyone on the board has with threads they don't like.      

And yes, if you want play the move-the-threads game, I'll play today.  It's really unnecessary, but I'll play.  I have a little free time.   :)  
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2011, 11:45:11 AM
Countdown to moved.... 3...2...

lol

LOL
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on January 29, 2011, 11:47:41 AM
Countdown to moved.... 3...2...

lol

while you're at it move the LT thread to the sports board
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 11:59:40 AM
I'm not moving the thread.  It has been here since 2007.  A number of people have posted in the thread.  It plainly deals with the First Amendment freedoms of speech and religion and their involvement in public life.  If you have a problem with the fact it deals with religion, then like I said, don't read it.  Pretty simple.  Same choice everyone on the board has with threads they don't like.      

And yes, if you want play the move-the-threads game, I'll play today.  It's really unnecessary, but I'll play.  I have a little free time.   :)  
Ok... let's play move the threads...  I should have moved it the first time I saw it anyway.  I honestly don't think this thread belongs here and if you feel like striking back by moving my threads, go for it, I won't cry over it.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2011, 12:01:36 PM
Oh no!   :'(  lol . . . .
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 12:03:38 PM
Oh no!   :'(  lol . . . .
does that mean you're not going to strike back by deleting or moving my threads lol...  Come on... go for it dude...  You can do it!!!! :D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2011, 12:06:55 PM
does that mean you're not going to strike back by deleting or moving my threads lol...  Come on... go for it dude...  You can do it!!!! :D

Oh it's war!  LOL . . . .
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 29, 2011, 12:11:42 PM
Oh it's war!  LOL . . . .
You will either 1.  pm stella and ask her to move it back or option 2. pm Ron and ask him to move it back...

I honestly thought this thread needed moved here.  Your focus was on the religious aspect.  I was right in moving this thread.  The rest is up to you and you can do whatever you want about it.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on January 30, 2011, 04:31:09 AM
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 02, 2011, 07:13:23 PM
Rep. Giffords' husband to address National Prayer Breakfast
By Dan Gilgoff, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' husband will speak at the Thursday's National Prayer Breakfast in Washington on the congresswoman's behalf, her office announced Wednesday.

Capt. Mark Kelly, a NASA astronaut, will deliver closing prayer at the event, the Arizona congresswoman's office said in a statement.

President Barack Obama will also speak at the breakfast, an annual event in Washington for 58 years.

Giffords was making "lightning speed" progress for a brain injury and had the drain for brain fluid removed from her head, her doctors said last week.

Authorities say that Giffords was the primary target of a shooting that left six people dead and 13 more injured in Tucson, Arizona on January 8.

Giffords and Kelly were married in 2007.

The National Prayer Breakfast was founded in 1953 and has been attended by every sitting president.

The White House will be streaming Obama's remarks live on its website.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/02/rep-giffords-husband-to-close-national-prayer-breakfast/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 03, 2011, 05:53:44 PM
Obama discusses faith at National Prayer Breakfast
By Associated Press

POSTED: 06:16 a.m. HST, Feb 03, 2011

WASHINGTON >> President Barack Obama said today that his faith has deepened during his two years in the White House, and he urged lawmakers to rely on their own faith to build a spirit of civility in Washington following the shooting of a congresswoman.

Speaking at the annual National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, Obama said that at a time of bitter partisanship, lawmakers must find a way to be open to the ideas of others, while staying true to their core principles.

"I pray that God will show me and all of us the limits of our understanding and open our ears and our hearts to our brothers and sisters with different points of view, that such reminders of our shared hopes and our shared dreams and our shared limitations as children of God will reveal a way forward that we can travel together," he said.

Obama's remarks Thursday built on his calls for civility in the days after last month's shooting rampage in Arizona, which left six dead. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head, and is recovering at a rehab center in Houston.

Giffords' husband, Mark Kelly, attended Thursday's breakfast.

"We are with them for the long haul, and God is with them for the long haul," Obama said of Giffords and Kelly.

The president said he also prayed that "a better day will dawn" over Egypt, where violence has erupted between supporters and opponents of President Hosni Mubarak.

"We pray that violence in Egypt will end, and the rights and aspirations of the Egyptian people will be realized," Obama said.

The president also directly addressed questions about his religion Thursday, saying his Christianity has been a "sustaining force" during times when he and his family's faith has been questioned.

"We are reminded that ultimately what matters is not what other people say about us, but whether we're being true to our conscience and true to our God," Obama said.

Some conservatives and political opponents have questioned Obama's Christian faith. In fact, a Pew Research Center poll in August found that 18 percent of people wrongly believe Obama is Muslim — up from 11 percent who said so in March 2009. Just 34 percent said they thought Obama is Christian.

First lady Michelle Obama, Vice President Joe Biden and several lawmakers also attended the annual breakfast, which every president since Dwight Eisenhower has participated in.

Obama said he had prayed for God's intervention on any number or occasions, not always on the weightiest issues of the day.

At one point, the president said he has prayed, "Lord, give me patience as I watch Malia go to her first dance, where there will be boys. Lord, let her skirt get longer as she travels to that place." Twelve-year-old Malia is the older of his two daughters. Sasha is 9.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/115186784.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on February 05, 2011, 09:12:03 PM
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/373357/february-03-2011/crisis-in-egypt---anderson-cooper---bill-o-reilly
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: big L dawg on February 05, 2011, 09:38:40 PM
religion is so barbaric...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on February 05, 2011, 10:01:02 PM
religion is so barbaric...

It's definitely funny
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 19, 2011, 11:31:31 AM
Obama At Easter Prayer Breakfast: 'Resurrection ... Puts Everything Else In Perspective'

(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/268223/thumbs/r-OBAMA-EASTER-PRAYER-BREAKFAST-large570.jpg)
WASHINGTON -- Pausing to observe Holy Week amidst war and the policy struggles, President Barack Obama said on Tuesday that the agony of Jesus Christ through death and resurrection puts mere political struggle "in perspective."

For the second year running, Obama hosted an Easter prayer breakfast at the White House, and the East Room was filled with administration officials and clergy from across the country.

Obama said "critical national debates" are raging, and "my plate has been full as well. The in-box keeps accumulating. But then comes Holy Week ...

"As busy as we are, as many tasks as pile up, during this season, we are reminded that there is something about the resurrection ... of Our Savior Jesus Christ that puts everything else in perspective."

Obama spoke just before heading to a town meeting in Virginia on his deficit plan -- the start of a cost-to-coast tour promoting his fiscal blueprint as more balanced than the one advocated by congressional Republicans.

Obama has used previous prayer breakfasts to underscore the depth of his Christian faith in the face of polls indicating some Americans question his religious beliefs. Last August, a Pew Research Center poll found 18 percent wrongly believe that Obama is a Muslim.

On Tuesday, Obama recounted the story of Christ's march to Calvary, the crucifixion and resurrection, the "unfathomable grace" of taking on the sins of the world.

"This amazing grace calls me to reflect, and it calls me to pray," he said.

Obama said his daughters help keep things in perspective for him, and so does having a "strong spouse.... But nothing beats Scripture and the reminder of the Eternal."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/19/obama-at-easter-prayer-br_n_850944.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 19, 2011, 11:38:22 AM
DID HE GO TO CHURCH THIS PAST SUNDAY FO PALM SUNDAY?   


YES OR NO?   


Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: MCWAY on April 20, 2011, 05:26:11 AM
Obama At Easter Prayer Breakfast: 'Resurrection ... Puts Everything Else In Perspective'

(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/268223/thumbs/r-OBAMA-EASTER-PRAYER-BREAKFAST-large570.jpg)
WASHINGTON -- Pausing to observe Holy Week amidst war and the policy struggles, President Barack Obama said on Tuesday that the agony of Jesus Christ through death and resurrection puts mere political struggle "in perspective."

For the second year running, Obama hosted an Easter prayer breakfast at the White House, and the East Room was filled with administration officials and clergy from across the country.

Obama said "critical national debates" are raging, and "my plate has been full as well. The in-box keeps accumulating. But then comes Holy Week ...

"As busy as we are, as many tasks as pile up, during this season, we are reminded that there is something about the resurrection ... of Our Savior Jesus Christ that puts everything else in perspective."

Obama spoke just before heading to a town meeting in Virginia on his deficit plan -- the start of a cost-to-coast tour promoting his fiscal blueprint as more balanced than the one advocated by congressional Republicans.

Obama has used previous prayer breakfasts to underscore the depth of his Christian faith in the face of polls indicating some Americans question his religious beliefs. Last August, a Pew Research Center poll found 18 percent wrongly believe that Obama is a Muslim.

On Tuesday, Obama recounted the story of Christ's march to Calvary, the crucifixion and resurrection, the "unfathomable grace" of taking on the sins of the world.

"This amazing grace calls me to reflect, and it calls me to pray," he said.

Obama said his daughters help keep things in perspective for him, and so does having a "strong spouse.... But nothing beats Scripture and the reminder of the Eternal."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/19/obama-at-easter-prayer-br_n_850944.html

I said this six months ago, Beach. When his campaign starts rolling, Obama will get the Holy Ghost. I just figured it'd be within half a year or so before election day. It appears he's ahead of schedule.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 20, 2011, 10:19:22 AM
I said this six months ago, Beach. When his campaign starts rolling, Obama will get the Holy Ghost. I just figured it'd be within half a year or so before election day. It appears he's ahead of schedule.



Yep.  Pandering.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 20, 2011, 10:21:50 AM
Yep.  Pandering.

Only idiots really buy into his lies anymore.   Seriously, who the hell can believe a damn word from this jerkoff?  A so called "DEVOUT" Christian who spends Pslam Sunday on the golf course.  got it.   ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 20, 2011, 10:25:36 AM
Only idiots really buy into his lies anymore.   Seriously, who the hell can believe a damn word from this jerkoff?  A so called "DEVOUT" Christian who spends Pslam Sunday on the golf course.  got it.   ::)  ::)

I've questioned the sincerity of his convictions from day 1. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: MCWAY on April 20, 2011, 10:30:35 AM
Only idiots really buy into his lies anymore.   Seriously, who the hell can believe a damn word from this jerkoff?  A so called "DEVOUT" Christian who spends Pslam Sunday on the golf course.  got it.   ::)  ::)

At least, he's not speaking in tongues....YET (that may change, depending on his poll numbers)!!!!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 20, 2011, 10:32:28 AM
At least, he's not speaking in tongues....YET (that may change, depending on his poll numbers)!!!!

LOL
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: 240 is Back on April 20, 2011, 10:52:16 AM
I'm betting giffords' is the october surprise next year.

they'll keep her under wraps.  her appearance in some swing state political rally for obama with 60,000 people in attendance (let's say, the thursday before a tuesday election) will give him a little bump.

Would anyone here put it past him?  Not as cool as a bin laden tape endorsing his opponent, but will def draw an emotional response.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 20, 2011, 10:54:57 AM
You have been playing that obl crap for years.  Give it up already. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Roger Bacon on April 21, 2011, 05:58:36 AM
Shouldn't this thread be on the religious board? ???
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: loco on April 21, 2011, 06:13:21 AM
Shouldn't this thread be on the religious board? ???

Why?  It's about government and politicians mixing church and state.  It's political.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: MCWAY on April 21, 2011, 07:02:38 AM
Why?  It's about government and politicians mixing church and state.  It's political.

EXACTLY!!! And, you can bet your house that Obama will hit the black churches HARD within the next year or so. Yet, we will hear nary a PEEP from all the "separation of church and state" honks on the left.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 22, 2011, 04:40:01 PM
That group needs to get a life.

As Day of Prayer Nears, Group Picks Fight in Arizona to Eliminate It
Published April 22, 2011
FoxNews.com
 
Gov. Jan Brewer is the latest official to try to stamp out a lawsuit filed by an atheist group suing to stop the annual Day of Prayer celebrated nationally and among the states.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, which has made elimination of the Day of Prayer a central cause of its existence, filed the suit last month to prevent Brewer from declaring May 5 this year's "Day of Prayer" in Arizona.

Filing the suit on behalf of four Arizonans identified of nonbelievers in religion, the foundation has also questioned the constitutionality of Brewer's proclamation in 2009 and 2010 as well as her Day of Prayer proclamation for the state budget on Jan. 17, 2010.

On Thursday, the governor told a court in Phoenix that she is in compliance with federal and state constitutional provisions. She also addressed the lawsuit during a prayer breakfast in which she said proclaiming a day of prayer is an American tradition dating back to George Washington's presidency.

"The lawsuit to stop our prayer proclamations is nothing more than an attempt to drive religious expression from the public square," she said. "I intend to fight that lawsuit -- vigorously -- every step of the way."

The group tried a similar tack against President Obama to prevent a national celebration of the day, but a three-judge panel on the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals tossed the case last week, ruling that the Freedom From Religion Foundation lacked standing. Brewer said she's confident of a similar outcome in the Arizona case.

The group is seeking a rehearing of the case against Obama from the entire 7th Circuit Court.

"Our challenge is so strong, our claim is so correct," Foundation Co-President Annie Laurie Gaylor said in a statement. "The First Amendment says, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.' No law should mean no law!"

Gaylor called the court's ruling "cowardly," saying the group would have won if the appeals court panel had ruled on the merits of the case as a federal district court judge did last year in a ruling that favored the foundation.

Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the National Day of Prayer Task Force applauded the appeals court's decision.

"Since the days of our Founding Fathers, the government has protected and encouraged public prayer and other expressions of dependence on the Almighty," she said in a statement. "Prayer is an indispensable part of our heritage, and as citizens, we must remain faithful in our commitment to intercede for our nation during this pivotal and challenging time."

Last fall, the group lost a legal challenge in Colorado that alleged the state violated its constitution by recognizing the National Day of Prayer. But a district court judge in Denver dismissed the case, saying the state proclamation is a lawful expression of an individual's right to practice religion.
Presidents have been annually marking the first Thursday in May as the National Day of Prayer since 1988. The tradition dates back to 1952, when President Harry Truman signed a congressional resolution into law. Before 1988, presidents could choose when to hold the annual day of prayer.
"Congress and the president of the United States have no business telling me or any other citizen to pray ... much less setting aside an entire day for prayer every year and even telling me what to pray about," Gaylor said.

But Gaylor's group is climbing an uphill battle that merely starts with the National Day of Prayer. Governors have been consistently proclaiming prayer days on more than just one day each year.

Texas Gov. Rick Perry this week proclaimed a three day period, from Friday to Sunday, as Days of Prayer for rain in the state, which is in the midst of a terrible drought and battling a massive wildfire covering nearly 2 million acres. Some areas not seeing wet weather for nearly three months, matching rainfall deficit records dating back to the 1930s, the governor said.

"I urge Texans of all faiths and traditions to offer prayers on that day for the healing of our land, the rebuilding of our communities and the restoration of our normal way of life," he said in the proclamation.

Last month, Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley called for a day of prayer for students in his state, following in the footsteps of his predecessor, Gov. Bob Riley, who proclaimed the first statewide day of prayer for students in 2006. Bentley asked residents to pray for students who face challenges from peer pressure to abuse drugs and alcohol to school violence to low self-esteem.

Riley was also among four Gulf Coast state governors last year who held a day of prayer more than two months after the BP oil spill. The other states were Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/22/brewer-holy-fight-atheist-group-day-prayer/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 23, 2011, 10:25:43 AM
Texas Governor Asks Residents to Pray for Rain Amid Extreme Drought
Published April 23, 2011
FoxNews.com

Gov. Rick Perry, a devout Christian, is calling on all Texans to pray for rain as most of the state battles an extreme and exceptional drought.
Perry has proclaimed a three-day period, from Friday to Sunday, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the state.

"I urge Texans of all faiths and traditions to offer prayers on that day for the healing of our land, the rebuilding of our communities and the restoration of our normal way of life," he wrote in the proclamation.

The drought has led to massive wildfires that have scored more than 1.8 million acres since last year, claimed the lives of two firefighters and destroyed nearly 400 homes. Perry declared a state of emergency in December.

This isn't the first time Perry has asked Texans for prayer in the midst of a disaster. Last year, he joined three other Gulf Coast state governors – Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour and Alabama Gov. Bob Riley -- who held a day of prayer more than two months after the BP oil spill.

While there hasn't been any public criticism of Perry's religious response so far, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer is being targeted for her Day of Prayer proclamations.

The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, which has made elimination of the Day of Prayer a central cause of its existence, filed a lawsuit last month to prevent Brewer from declaring May 5 this year's "Day of Prayer" in Arizona.

Filing the suit on behalf of four Arizonans identified as nonbelievers in religion, the foundation has also questioned the constitutionality of Brewer's proclamation in 2009 and 2010 as well as her Day of Prayer proclamation for the state budget on Jan. 17, 2010.

On Thursday, the governor told a court in Phoenix that she is in compliance with federal and state constitutional provisions. She also addressed the lawsuit during a prayer breakfast in which she said proclaiming a day of prayer is an American tradition dating back to George Washington's presidency.

"The lawsuit to stop our prayer proclamations is nothing more than an attempt to drive religious expression from the public square," she said. "I intend to fight that lawsuit -- vigorously -- every step of the way."

The group tried a similar tack against President Obama to prevent a National Day of Prayer, but a three-judge panel on the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals tossed the case last week, ruling that the Freedom From Religion Foundation lacked standing. Brewer said she's confident of a similar outcome in the Arizona case.

Presidents have been annually marking days of prayer since 1952, when President Harry Truman signed a congressional resolution into law. Congress amended the law in 1988 to make the first Thursday in May the National Day of Prayer.

The Wisconsin group is seeking a rehearing of the case against Obama from the entire 7th Circuit Court.

"Our challenge is so strong, our claim is so correct," Foundation Co-President Annie Laurie Gaylor said in a statement. "The First Amendment says, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.' No law should mean no law!"

Last fall, the group lost a legal challenge in Colorado that alleged the state violated its constitution by recognizing the National Day of Prayer. But a district court judge in Denver dismissed the case, saying the state proclamation is a lawful expression of an individual's right to practice religion.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/23/texas-governor-asks-residents-pray-rain-amid-extreme-drought/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 24, 2011, 02:49:51 PM
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/04/24/t1larg.obamas-easter-church.t1larg.jpg)
Obamas attend local church on Easter Sunday
By the CNN Wire Staff
April 24, 2011

Washington (CNN) -- President Barack Obama and his family attended the Easter Sunday service at Shiloh Baptist Church, which was founded by freed slaves in 1863.

The first family entered the church to a standing ovation, then joined in singing with the choir, backed by a live band that included a guitar, keyboard and drums.

Rev. Wallace Charles Smith welcomed the Obamas, noting the congregants pray for them every Sunday.

At collection time, Obama and his daughters gave money in envelopes provided at their seats. The first family left after two hours, as the service approached its conclusion.

The president and his family have attended services occasionally since moving to the White House in January 2009. Last Easter, the Obamas worshipped at a Methodist church.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/04/24/obamas.easter/index.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 24, 2011, 02:58:39 PM
What a phoney. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 24, 2011, 03:06:41 PM
He's looking for the camera.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 24, 2011, 03:08:40 PM
Its really sad how blacks allow themselves to be played for such fools for this joke. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 25, 2011, 05:35:45 AM
WH Fails to Release Easter Proclamation
FoxNation.com ^ | April 25 | Staff




President Obama failed to release a statement or a proclamation recognizing the national observance of Easter Sunday, Christianity's most sacred holiday. By comparison, the White House has released statements recognizing the observance of major Muslim holidays and released statements in 2010 on Ramadan, Eid-ul-Fitr, Hajj, and Eid-ul-Adha.


(Excerpt) Read more at nation.foxnews.com ...

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Soul Crusher on April 25, 2011, 09:47:45 AM
Obama Chose To Worship On Easter At a Radical Church
David Horowitz's NewsReal Blog ^ | April 25, 2011 | Joseph Klein






President Obama and the first family attended Easter services at the Shiloh Baptist Church in Washington, D.C.  As the mainstream press made sure to point out, this church was founded in 1863 by freed slaves.

MSNBC proclaimed:

Obama attends Easter service at historic church: The first family enters Shiloh Baptist Church to a round of applause
It would be such a heart-warming picture of religious devotion except that the mainstream press neglected to mention a couple of things about the church which Obama chose for his Easter worship. The Shiloh Baptist Church hosted an anti-Israel hate fest in 2009 at the same time as an associate minister of the church, Adam Russell Taylor, was  serving as an Obama administration White House Fellow in the Office of Cabinet Affairs, Public Engagement and Intergovernmental Affairs.


(Excerpt) Read more at newsrealblog.com ...

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 25, 2011, 03:39:07 PM
WH Fails to Release Easter Proclamation
FoxNation.com ^ | April 25 | Staff




President Obama failed to release a statement or a proclamation recognizing the national observance of Easter Sunday, Christianity's most sacred holiday. By comparison, the White House has released statements recognizing the observance of major Muslim holidays and released statements in 2010 on Ramadan, Eid-ul-Fitr, Hajj, and Eid-ul-Adha.


(Excerpt) Read more at nation.foxnews.com ...



Shocking.  Not.   ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 08, 2011, 02:56:09 PM
Perry Declares Day Of Fasting And Prayer For Nation
Gov. Rick Perry is asking governors from across the country to come to Texas in August for a day of prayer and fasting for the nation.
(http://media.graytvinc.com/images/Rick-Perry-State-Of-State-2.jpg)

AUSTIN (June 6, 2011)—Gov. Rick Perry has proclaimed Aug. 6 as a day of prayer and fasting for the nation and has invited all of the governor’s in the U.S. to Texas to join him in a prayer meeting that the American Family Association is hosting at Reliant Stadium in Houston.

Perry also urged other governors to issue similar proclamations, urging prayer that day for “unity and righteousness for our states, nation and mankind.”

“Given the trials that beset our nation and world, from the global economic downturn to natural disasters, the lingering danger of terrorism and continued debasement of our culture, I believe it is time to convene the leaders from each of our United States in a day of prayer and fasting, like that described in the book of Joel,” Gov Perry said.

“I urge all Americans of faith to pray on that day for the healing of our country, the rebuilding of our communities and the restoration of enduring values as our guiding force.”

At least one governor doesn’t plan to attend.

A spokesman for Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder is too busy to make it on Aug. 6, a spokeswoman said.

Geralyn Lasher told The Detroit News that Snyder expects to be at work focusing on economic development and has plenty to keep him busy at home, despite the early completion of the Michigan state budget for the coming fiscal year.

Lasher says Snyder supports religious events such as the National Day of Prayer.

http://www.kwtx.com/centraltexasvotes/localheadlines/Perry_Declares_Day_Of_Fasting_And_Prayer_For_Nation_123262458.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 15, 2011, 09:52:42 PM
Waaaaa!

Perry faces lawsuit over Christian rally
Reported by: Chase Thomason

“This is Governor Rick Perry and I'm inviting you to join your fellow Americans in a day of prayer and fasting on behalf of our nation.”

Governor Perry is promoting what's being called “The Response: a call to prayer for a nation in crisis”.

Sylas Politte, student pastor at Aldersgate United Methodist Church in Lubbock, said the prayer is needed.

“If you look through where Texas has been just since January, with the wildfires and drought, some would say of biblical proportions,” Politte said.

Unfortunately for the governor, others aren't seeing it that way. The “Freedom From Religion Foundation”, an atheist group, wants a court to declare Perry’s connection to the event unconstitutional.

“I don't see it as a violation for the fact that he's not forcing anyone to do it. According to the constitution, we as the people have freedom of religion and to assemble,” Politte said.

“It's not in violation of church and state, but actually what they're claiming is that it's a violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment,” said Lubbock attorney, Curtis Parrish.

Parrish said this group from Wisconsin is claiming that the governor has in effect established a religious act and they consider that to be a violation of the constitution.

“They received a favorable ruling on this in a Wisconsin Court recently. This has given them the motivation to go around to other states and other government entities to try to get these prayer days done away with,” Parrish said.

“It lines up with a trend throughout history. I think it's really encouraging that the governor has called for a day of fasting and prayer,” Politte said.

Despite the lawsuit, Perry said he's going forward with the daylong event. “I think about those who talk about Christian faith as being intolerant,” said Perry. “Isn't it just the height of intolerance to say you can't gather together in public and pray to our God?”

Parrish said there may be merit to some of the suit's claims, but he doubts a judge will rule against the governor.

"There are prayers offered in a government setting all over the nation including the U.S. Congress. The Supreme Court has traditionally upheld those as being okay and not a violation of the establishment clause because it's traditional,” Parrish said.

The rally will take place August 6th at the Houston Reliant Stadium.

http://www.myfoxlubbock.com/news/local/story/governor-perry-texas-lubbock-pray-fast-crisis/l6ff7Hr5GkWsHoir5bP8xQ.cspx
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 23, 2011, 01:36:17 AM
Well imagine that.  Obama having conversations with God over the debt issue.  :)

Obama Prays for Solution to Debt Crisis
By Paul Bedard
Posted: July 21, 2011

President Obama on Wednesday prayed with several Christian leaders to find an answer to the debt ceiling crisis that doesn't undercut federal programs to the poor.

Opening a White House meeting with a diverse group of Christian religious leaders, Dr. Barbara Williams-Skinner said she reached across a table to hold the president's hand "to pray for God's wisdom."

And at one point in the following discussion, the president referenced Matthew 25 from the Bible in praying that the cuts envisioned by his negotiating team don't fall on "the least of these."

[See photos of the Obamas behind the scenes.]

Said Skinner, the former Congressional Black Caucus executive director who heads the Skinner Leadership Institute, "it was amazing that the president himself used that term in his reference to those in need because as a Christian, he too knows that is the word of God."

Those in the meeting were not allowed to directly quote much of what the president said.

The group was there to seek the president's help for their "Circle of Protection" effort, an international plea by spiritual leaders to keep programs for the poor both in the United States and overseas safe from the budget cuts.

Many of the leaders pressed Obama to especially save programs to feed the poor in famine-ravaged continents, like Africa, noting that the are among the discretionary spending plans facing the knife.

After their prayer, Skinner said that Obama "was moved, and I think he was moved because he was prayed for he was moved because somebody was thinking of him as a person."

[See who's been visiting the White House.]

Another religious leader at the meeting said that Obama, quoting Lincoln, noted, "If you don't pray before you get here, you pray when you get here and that the presidency drives you to your knees. And in the middle of all the crises our country faces that was a moment of, I think, not only reflection but refreshment for everybody in the room."

The leaders spoke on a conference call with reporters today. Included in the Wednesday meeting were White House advisers Valerie Jarrett, Domestic Policy Council Director Melody Barnes, and Director of the Office of Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships Joshua DuBois. [See the month's best political cartoons.]

Jim Wallis, president and CEO of Sojourners, was left with the impression that Obama would fight cuts to programs for the poor. "He indicated again yesterday that the sacrifice in budget or deficit deal should not be born by the least of these. He used that phrase, 'The lease of these,' and of course we know that's from Matthew 25 where Jesus says, 'As you've done to the least of these, you've done to me.' So that was the reason we were all there, that's the text that brings us there and it's always heartening to hear a political leader refer to that text, that he knows that text."

[See a collection of political cartoons on President Obama.]

Wallis also said that the nation's Christian leaders are ready to take Obama's message to their followers to explain what's going on in the budget talks.

"It would be a powerful thing if our pulpits could be linked to the Bully Pulpit here and together we could say, however else we do this, however we put our fiscal house in order, we can't do it with more sacrifice from those who are already sacrificing and hurting so much. So we'd like to link our pulpits with the Bully Pulpit here and help the American people understand what's at stake and who's really going to be impact by all of this. So I felt encouraged."

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2011/07/21/obama-prays-for-solution-to-debt-crisis
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 24, 2011, 10:29:24 PM
Funny.   :)

Public Policy Poll: God Commands 52% Approval
Sunday, 24 Jul 2011
By Mike Tighe

Let’s put political approval/disapproval ratings aside for a bit and consider this: God commands some impressive approval scores in a Public Policy Polling (PPP) tally, moreso among women than men.

Of course, you’ll also have to set aside the rather jaundiced phrasing of the Democratic-leaning poll’s introduction to its God questions, “If God exists . . . ” not to mention the poll’s reference to God as an “it,” no doubt in a quest for gender neutrality.

With the ground rules established — and let’s just stipulate that the Creator exists, even if PPP won’t — the July 15-17 survey of 928 voters found God receiving a solid 59-9 percent approval rating overall. Not too shabby, considering the fact that the same poll found participants putting Democrats and Republicans in Congress in a statistical tie for approval, at 33 percent each. Democrats’ disapproval is 54 percent and Republicans, 55.

God’s score for creating the universe blows away his (let’s call it a him, just for the sake of argument, or perhaps, to stay out of those debates over whether God is a he or a she) present score, with a very respectable 71 percent approval to a mere 5 percent disapproval. Women are more lenient, giving God a 72 percent approval, compared with just 70 percent from men. And 24 percent just aren’t sure.

Poll participants also endorse his performance with the animal kingdom, where he gets a 56-11 percent opposable thumbs up, as well as his dexterity with natural disasters, at 50-13 percent approval.

Women are more laudatory in both categories, at 55-38 percent approval overall, compared with 48-41 percent among men, and 54-35 percent approval on his handling of natural disasters from women, compared with 45-39 percent among men.

Of course, the figures don’t necessarily add up to 100 percent because, after all, only God is perfect.

Here’s how PPP posed the questions and tallied the responses:

Q7 If God exists, do you approve or disapprove of
its performance?
Approve ........................ ........................ .......... 52%
Disapprove.............. ........................ ................ 9%
Not sure ........................ ........................ .......... 40%
Q8 If God exists, do you approve or disapprove of
its handling of natural disasters?
Approve ........................ ........................ .......... 50%
Disapprove.............. ........................ ................ 13%
Not sure ........................ ........................ .......... 37%
Q9 If God exists, do you approve or disapprove of
its handling of animals?
Approve ........................ ........................ .......... 56%
Disapprove.............. ........................ ................ 11%
Not sure ........................ ........................ .......... 33%
Q10 If God exists, do you approve or disapprove of
its handling of creating the universe?
Approve ........................ ........................ .......... 71%
Disapprove.............. ........................ ................ 5%
Not sure ........................ ........................ .......... 24%

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/God-approval-poll-creator/2011/07/24/id/404610
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 26, 2011, 10:53:23 AM
Awesome.   :)

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 26, 2011, 08:09:05 PM
The Obama Administration saying something untrue?  No way . . . .

Texas Lawmaker Calls for Congressional Probe Into Ban of Christian Prayers at Military Funerals

By Todd Starnes
Published July 26, 2011
FoxNews.com

A Texas lawmaker is calling for a congressional investigation of the Houston National Cemetery after he went undercover and determined that cemetery officials are still preventing Christian prayers at the funerals of military veterans.

“The Obama administration continues to try to prevent the word ‘God’ from being used at the funerals of our heroes,” said. Rep. John Culberson (R-Texas).

“It’s unacceptable and I’m going to put a stop to it as fast as humanly possible,” Culberson told Fox News Radio. He attended a burial service at the cemetery undercover on July 8, when he says he witnessed volunteer members of the honor guard from the Veterans of Foreign Wars being prohibited from using any references to God.

“The Obama administration had told the nation and me they were not interfering with the prayer said over the graves of veterans,” he said. “And I went undercover to personally verify that claim.” VA officials have strongly denied they’ve banned any religious speech – and have offered support for Arleen Ocasio, the cemetery’s director.

“The idea that invoking the name of God or Jesus is banned at VA national cemeteries is blatantly false,” said VA Press Secretary Josh Taylor in a written statement to Fox News Radio. “The truth is, VA’s policy protects veterans’ families’ rights to pray however they choose at our national cemeteries.”

Taylor declined to comment on the pending lawsuit or other ongoing legal proceedings, but did say, “No one should make judgments before all the facts are known.” Culberson said the commander of the honor guard was told by cemetery officials to approach a grieving widow to reconfirm that she wanted the word God mentioned at her husband’s graveside service.

“He quite correctly said as a Texan and a man of honor and integrity, ‘I’m not bothering that poor woman at this most terrible time of her life. We’re going to do the ritual,’” Culberson said. “Right in front of me, the VA directly and deliberately attempted to prevent the VFW from doing their magnificent, spiritual ritual over the grave of this fallen hero."

The cemetery is already the focus of a lawsuit filed on behalf of the VFW, an American Legion post and Houston’s National Memorial Ladies. They claim the VA banned members of the organizations from using the words “God” or “Jesus” at burial services.

They also allege they were banned from reciting prayers or using religious language during services unless families approved the text in advance. Culberson, who oversees the sub-committee responsible for funding the cemetery, said that he wants the cemetery director fired – and he’s willing to do whatever possible to make sure that happens.

“The cemetery director has to leave,” he said. “I will zero out her salary. If she attempts to work for the VA anywhere in the state of Texas her salary will be zero.”

“It makes my skin crawl that liberals are attempting to drive prayer out of a funeral ceremony for our heroes,” Culberson said. “We’re going to fix this so that no Obama liberal bureaucrat will interfere with the funeral of a hero.”

But Taylor said the rules set in place at the cemetery are meant to protect the grieving families.

“Put simply, VA policy puts the wishes of the veteran’s family above all else on the day it matters most – the day they pay their final respects to their loved ones,” Taylor said. "Out of respect for the families, VA’s policy exists to prevent anyone from disrespecting or interfering with a veteran’s private committal service.”

Controversy first surfaced nationally at the cemetery during a Memorial Day event when a Houston pastor was ordered by the VA to remove the name of Jesus from his prayer.

Culberson said he hopes to hold hearings on the cemetery in the fall.

“They will bury 10 to 20 American heroes today and the Obama administration is preventing prayers from being said over their gravesites – today, ” Culberson said.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/26/texas-lawmaker-calls-for-congressional-probe-into-ban-christian-prayers-at/?test=latestnews
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 30, 2011, 12:06:23 PM
Waaaaa!

Perry faces lawsuit over Christian rally
Reported by: Chase Thomason

“This is Governor Rick Perry and I'm inviting you to join your fellow Americans in a day of prayer and fasting on behalf of our nation.”

Governor Perry is promoting what's being called “The Response: a call to prayer for a nation in crisis”.

Sylas Politte, student pastor at Aldersgate United Methodist Church in Lubbock, said the prayer is needed.

“If you look through where Texas has been just since January, with the wildfires and drought, some would say of biblical proportions,” Politte said.

Unfortunately for the governor, others aren't seeing it that way. The “Freedom From Religion Foundation”, an atheist group, wants a court to declare Perry’s connection to the event unconstitutional.

“I don't see it as a violation for the fact that he's not forcing anyone to do it. According to the constitution, we as the people have freedom of religion and to assemble,” Politte said.

“It's not in violation of church and state, but actually what they're claiming is that it's a violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment,” said Lubbock attorney, Curtis Parrish.

Parrish said this group from Wisconsin is claiming that the governor has in effect established a religious act and they consider that to be a violation of the constitution.

“They received a favorable ruling on this in a Wisconsin Court recently. This has given them the motivation to go around to other states and other government entities to try to get these prayer days done away with,” Parrish said.

“It lines up with a trend throughout history. I think it's really encouraging that the governor has called for a day of fasting and prayer,” Politte said.

Despite the lawsuit, Perry said he's going forward with the daylong event. “I think about those who talk about Christian faith as being intolerant,” said Perry. “Isn't it just the height of intolerance to say you can't gather together in public and pray to our God?”

Parrish said there may be merit to some of the suit's claims, but he doubts a judge will rule against the governor.

"There are prayers offered in a government setting all over the nation including the U.S. Congress. The Supreme Court has traditionally upheld those as being okay and not a violation of the establishment clause because it's traditional,” Parrish said.

The rally will take place August 6th at the Houston Reliant Stadium.

http://www.myfoxlubbock.com/news/local/story/governor-perry-texas-lubbock-pray-fast-crisis/l6ff7Hr5GkWsHoir5bP8xQ.cspx

Day of Prayer Lawsuit Against Gov. Perry Dismissed
Friday, 29 Jul 2011

A federal judge ruled Thursday that Texas Gov. Rick Perry can take part in a day of prayer next weekend and his participation does not violate the Constitution.
 
A suit was filed last month by activist Kay Staley and a group called the Freedom From Religion Foundation, who argued Perry participating in the event constituted a breach of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The Establishment Clause prohibits government from taking action that favors religion.
 
The Liberty Institute — a Judeo-Christian-oriented First Amendment rights nonprofit — intervened, and filed a motion on behalf of co-defendant American Family Association, which is planning and promoting the day of prayer and fasting — labeled “The Response” — scheduled for Aug. 6 at Houston’s Reliant Stadium.
 
“This is a complete and total victory for freedom and the First Amendment,” said Kelly Shackelford, president and CEO for the Liberty Institute. “The judge rightly dismissed this case and the national prayer event will go on as planned. This was an attack on the First Amendment rights of every American, and it failed miserably.”
 
Staley, a Houston realtor who strongly fights on church and state issues, has filed other lawsuits seeking to silence religious expression in the public sphere. A most recent filing on her behalf against the Houston City Council and a sitting councilwoman sought to end the recitation of the Lord’s Prayer at the beginning of council meetings.
 
The Liberty Institute also intervened in that instance, defending Councilwoman Anne Clutterbuck. The lawsuit was dismissed with prejudice last August.

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/lawsuit-Perry-religion-state/2011/07/29/id/405326
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 17, 2011, 11:32:52 AM
Lieberman Defends Perry, Bachmann's Show of Faith
Tuesday, 16 Aug 2011
 
Former Democratic vice presidential nominee Joe Lieberman rushed to the defense of Rep. Michele Bachman, R-Minn., and Texas Gov. Rick Perry, R-Texas, who have been criticized for openly speaking of their faith on the campaign trail.

The independent senator from Connecticut, who typically caucuses with Democrats, said they have a constitution right to do so and noted “our country was founded on religious faith.”

Lieberman, appearing on talk show host Steve Malzberg's New York’s WOR radio, was asked about attacks on Bachmann, Perry and Mitt Romney for speaking about their religious beliefs.

"Well to me there's no good reason for it,” he said. “I mean maybe some people are offended by it because they think it should be private. If a person's faith matters to them, first it’s their right in our country to say whatever they want. They don’t lose that right under the Constitution just because they become a candidate for public office. But the second thing is this is the history of our country, our country was founded on religious faith.”

When asked if he had a problem with religious statements the GOP presidential candidates have made, Lieberman said, "I was about to say, Oh God no, that’s actually what I mean. That’s their faith, and I think that strengthens them, and I give them a lot of credit for speaking about it.”

Lieberman said that comments about faith help the public understand who the candidates are and gives insight into their actions. He added that ultimately such attack backfire because the majority of Americans believe in God.

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/lieberman-bachmann-perry-faith/2011/08/16/id/407596
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 25, 2011, 10:03:59 AM
New York Mayor Bloomberg Bans Religion at 9/11 Ceremony
Wednesday, 24 Aug 2011
By Martin Gould

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg is under attack for refusing to allow members of the clergy to play a role in the city’s commemoration of the tenth anniversary of 9/11.

Bloomberg insists the ceremonies should focus on the families of those killed in the attacks on the World Trade Center. He is also barring political speech. But pastors and politicians are lining up to lambast his decision, reports The Wall Street Journal.

"This is America, and to have a memorial service where there's no prayer, this appears to be insanity to me," said Rudy Washington, a deputy mayor under Bloomberg’s predecessor Rudy Giuliani, who organized a nationally televised interfaith ceremony at Yankee Stadium in the days after the 2001 attacks.

"I feel like America has lost its way," added Washington. “I am very upset about it. This is crazy.”

New York City Council member Fernando Cabrera, a pastor in the Bronx, said faith was one of the “pillars that carried us through” the days after the attacks and called religious leaders “the spiritual and emotional backbone.”

“When you have a situation where people are trying to find meaning, where something is bigger than them, when you have a crisis of this level, they often look to the clergy," added Cabrera, who said excluding religious leaders from the ceremony was "wiping out the recognition of the importance that spirituality plays on that day."

The most prominent religious leader in the city, Roman Catholic archbishop Timothy Dolan, said he would celebrate Mass in St. Patrick’s Cathedral on the morning of September 11 and then go to St. Peter’s Church which is a short walk from Ground Zero.

Bloomberg says he wants the tone of the ceremony to be similar to that of previous years where the lack of religious input went largely unnoticed. But because this year marks a decade since the worst attack on American soil and with the presence of Presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush this year’s event will receive far more notice.

It will also be the first time the ceremony, in which dignitaries will recite poetry and the names of the dead will be read out, has been held at the site of the Twin Towers.

Bloomberg, a Jew, has seemed to take contradictory positions on religion when it comes to matters surrounding 9/11. He has defended the display of religious symbols, including the so-called “World Trade Center Cross,” two steel beams which form a 20 foot tall cross which was discovered in the rubble of the Twin Towers, at the 9/11 Memorial and Museum.

He has also supported the right of Muslims to build Park51, a 13-story community center two blocks from the site, saying he “shouldn't be in the business of picking" one religion over another.

“I think it's fair to say if somebody was going to try, on that piece of property, to build a church or a synagogue, nobody would be yelling and screaming," Bloomberg said. "The fact of the matter is that Muslims have a right to do it, too."

The mayor’s spokeswoman Evelyn Erskine defended the decision not to invite religious leaders to speak. "There are hundreds of important people that have offered to participate over the last nine years, but the focus remains on the families of the thousands who died on Sept. 11," she said.

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/bloomberg-911-bans-religion/2011/08/24/id/408556
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 30, 2011, 09:59:53 AM
Ky. High School Stops Football Pre-Game Prayer
CBNNews.com
Wednesday, August 24, 2011

A pre-game prayer was noticeably missing at Friday night's opening football game at Bell County High School in Pineville, Ky.

Following a complaint from the Freedom from Religion Foundation this month, the southeastern Kentucky school district has stopped the practice of beginning its games with a public prayer.

The group says its complaint was on behalf of a local family who it refused to identify.

School Superintendent George Thompson said the practice of having a local pastor offer prayer over loudspeakers was halted because previous court rulings indicated the county would lose a court battle, according to Hazard television station WYMT.

"Folks were pretty upset about it," he said. "Facebook has gone wild."

Sandra Stepp was one of many who were disappointed with the decision. Stepp's husband, Rev. Ray Stepp of Molus Pentecostal Church in neighboring Harlan County, had led the prayer for almost 20 years.

"It's sad that one person or two can stop this when there are so many of us wanting this," she told the Lexington Herald-Leader.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/August/Ky-High-School-Stops-Football-Pre-Game-Prayer-/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 30, 2011, 10:01:28 AM
Obama to Speak at Prayer Service on 9/11
Tuesday, 30 Aug 2011
 
WASHINGTON (AP) — The White House says President Barack Obama will speak at an interfaith prayer service at Washington National Cathedral the evening of Sept. 11 to commemorate the 10-year anniversary of the terror attacks.

The White House had previously announced Obama would also visit all three sites where planes struck that day — New York City, the Pentagon, and Shanksville, Pa.

Press Secretary Jay Carney announced plans for the prayer service speech Tuesday to reporters traveling on Air Force One with Obama to Minnesota.

Carney also said the White House would aim to commemorate "the remarkable resilience of the American people" and he emphasized the need to "remain absolutely vigilant in protecting" the United States and taking the fight to al-Qaida."

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/US-Obama-9-11/2011/08/30/id/409156
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: garebear on August 30, 2011, 10:04:41 AM
I'm pretty secular..and as a catholic..I get pretty "itchy" I guess when the evengelicals start pushing their agenda. I don't have aproblem with the prayers as u descibed them. Not sure it has any place in schools, however if a town or city, especially in the south is all pretty christian and folks vote for it, then I guess its not a big deal. That said...if the damm rags wanna where full on man dresses and burka's..its gotta be even on both sides. Head scarves sure..but they go to far.
Your hate defines you.

It is why you are a weak man.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 11, 2011, 12:33:23 PM
Obama proclaims National Days of Prayer and Remembrance
By: CNN's Ashley Killough

Washington (CNN) – Commemorating the 10th anniversary of 9/11, President Barack Obama proclaimed this weekend, Friday though Sunday, as National Days of Prayer and Remembrance.

“Today, our nation still faces great challenges, but this last decade has proven once more that, as a people, we emerge from our trials stronger than before,” Obama said in a statement Friday.

The president called on Americans to honor the victims of the terrorist attacks through activities such as prayer, memorial services, the ringing of bells, and evening candlelight remembrance vigils.

Obama also urged citizens to remember those among “the 9/11 generation” of service members who have “come of age bearing the burden of war,” with some paying the ultimate sacrifice.

“During these days of prayer and remembrance, a grateful nation gives thanks to all those who have given of themselves to make us safer,” Obama said.

Obama will attend memorial services at all three attack sites – New York, Washington and Pennsylvania – this weekend.

The proclamation comes in the wake of faith-based groups expressing opposition toward New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who stirred controversy when deciding to exclude religious leaders from the World Trade Center memorial service on Sunday.

Prominent politicians have also come out against the decision. On Tuesday, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani said religion played a key role in the days following the attacks by offering people some “strength to move on.”

“Just get them up. Say a little prayer,” Giuliani said at the National Press Club in Washington Tuesday. “The microphone will not melt if you say a prayer.”

In his statement Friday, Obama did not address the clergy issue, but focused on the memory of those who lost their lives 10 years ago.

“We continue to stand with their families and loved ones, while striving to ensure the legacy of those we lost is a safer, stronger, and more resilient nation,” Obama said.

– CNN's Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/10/obama-proclaims-national-days-of-prayer-and-remembrance/#more-175103
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 23, 2011, 11:04:13 AM
He needs it. 

Perry tells social conservatives to pray for Obama
By: CNN Political Reporter Peter Hamby

Orlando, Florida (CNN) - Texas Gov. Rick Perry on Thursday asked an audience of social conservatives in Florida to pray for President Barack Obama.

"As I campaign for president, I not only ask you for your vote and your support, I ask you for your prayers," Perry said. "I ask you to pray for our country. I ask you to pray for our president to give him wisdom, to open his eyes."

Perry was addressing a rally organized by the conservative Faith and Freedom Coalition ahead of Thursday night's GOP presidential debate in Orlando.

As he was deciding whether to run for president, Perry said prayer played a powerful role. The governor said he couldn't have entered the race "without being driven to my knees on many occasions."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/22/perry-tells-social-conservatives-to-pray-for-obama/#more-177346
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 28, 2011, 10:55:07 PM
Get a life already. 

Atheist Group Tries to Stop Prayers at High School Football Games That Include ‘Jesus’
By Todd Starnes
Published October 26, 2011
FoxNews.com

An Alabama school district has been accused of allowing prayers that invoke the name of Jesus during high school football games, according to a complaint filed by a national atheist organization.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation said the Lauderdale County school district has violated the First Amendment by allowing the prayers at Brooks High School.

School superintendent Bill Valentine confirmed to Fox News that he had received the complaint.

“We’ve referred that complaint to our attorney and we are in the process of reviewing it,” he said.

The complaint was lodged by a single resident who objected to the student-led prayer before high school football games played on school property.

The Times Daily newspaper identified the complainant as Jeremy Green. In an email to the newspaper, Green said he was taking a stand for the so-called “separation of church and state in an effort to protect the constitutional rights of the non-religious.”

“It is not the job of the public school system to endorse religion,” he wrote.

Valentine said that to his knowledge, no one has ever lodged a complaint with the school system about the prayers.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a similar complaint against a school in Arab, Ala. That school decided to end pregame prayers and instead offer a moment of silence.

Valentine said they haven’t made any decision about prayers for Friday night’s football game.

He said the complaint has generated lots of telephone calls – mostly in support of keeping the prayers. He added that most callers have been understanding and “seem to appreciate the quandary we find ourselves in.”

Lauderdale County has about 8,600 students enrolled in public schools and Valentine said the community has a very active religious community.

Among those is David McKelvey, pastor of the nearby First Baptist Church, Killen. He discussed the controversy during his Sunday sermon.
“It’s very sad,” McKelvey told Fox News. “I would think that any other prayer from another religion would not receive this kind of negativity.”
McKelvey said he’s attended football games when students deliver prayer and to his knowledge they have always been benign – mostly prayers for the players, the coaches, the referees and the fans.

“They are in the Christian context with the student ending the prayer in Jesus’ name,” he said.

The pastor called the complaint “unfortunate” but not surprising. Christianity, he said, is under attack.

“It’s going on all over the place,” he said. “You just hate for it to be coming to your doorstep.”

Read more at Fox News & Commentary: http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/daily-dispatch/alabama-town-under-atheist-attack.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/26/atheist-group-sues-over-prayers-at-high-school-football-games-that-include/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on October 29, 2011, 08:56:32 AM
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 04, 2011, 11:06:21 AM
Paranoid anti-religious extremists just can't help themselves.   ::)

Air Force Academy Backs Away from Christmas Charity
Nov 4, 2011

The Air Force Academy apologized Thursday night after it was accused of religious intolerance for promoting Operation Christmas Child – a program designed to send holiday gifts to impoverished children around the world.

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation said military commanders crossed the line when they promoted the gift program, sponsored by Samaritan’s Purse, an organization run by Franklin Graham.

Operation Christmas Child said they expect to send more than 8 million shoe box gifts to underprivileged children in 100 countries. Around 60,000 churches and 60,000 community groups in the United States are participating.

MikeyWeinstein, of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, said an evangelical Christian message is also included in the boxes.

“This is a proselytizing entity of Franklin Graham,” said the group’s president, Mikey Weinstein. He filed a complaint on behalf of 132 Academy personnel including two sets of Muslim-American parents.

The attack on Operation Christmas Child has generated outrage across the country.

“It’s another anti-faith effort that we are seeing by this administration,” said Rep. Randy Forbes (R-VA), who just pushed a congressional effort to reaffirm “In God We Trust” as the national motto.

“This is beyond political correctness,” Forbes told Fox News. “This is an anti-faith mode that we see over and over again coming from this administration and the people serving in it.”

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, told Fox News that this is evidence that the Obama administration “has engaged in a culture war beyond measure.”

“We see here the collateral damage – the fallout of religious freedom and the attack on Christian organizations that are simply reaching out to help those in need,” Perkins said. “This is a long pattern under this administration under a president who apologized for everything that is American.”

“It’s so outrageous,” said Jordan Sekulow an attorney with the American Center for Law and Justice. He said the controversy is an example of the cultural shift happening in the United States.

“This is a perfect example of how heartless these groups are when it comes to defending their anti-religion position,” Sekulow said. “It’s not about the First Amendment. It’s about a real hatred of religious people and people of faith that they would go so far as to stop an assistance program like Operation Christmas Child.”

Weinstein refuted that allegation.

“We are not trying to take shoe boxes of toys and candy away from kids,” Weinstein told Fox News. “But this is clearly an egregious Constitutional mistake.”

The Academy sent an e-mail to the entire cadet wing inviting them to participate in the Operation Christmas Child project.
 “As the holidays approach, we have the opportunity to provide the joy of Christmas to impoverished Children around the world,” read the e-mail sent to some 4,400 cadets and provided to Fox News. “PLEASE, PLEASE CONSIDER SPENDING SOME OF YOUR VALUABLE TIME AND MONEY TO LOVE ON A KID AROUND THE WORLD!!.”

Weinstein said he was alerted to the program on Wednesday after he was notified by an upset cadet.

“The cadet sent an e-mail saying, ‘This just shows how our military is supporting one religion – which is Christianity,’” Weinstein said.
He later received a telephone call from Brig. Gen. Richard Clark, the Academy’s commandant of cadets, to apologize.

“He said it was a mistake and he would fix it,” Weinstein said. “Lady Liberty is smiling tonight. This is a victory for the Constitution.”

“We agree that it was inappropriate,” Academy spokesman Lt. Col. John Bryan told the Colorado Gazette. He told the newspaper that the initial e-mail was sent by cadets without the knowledge of senior leaders.

Late yesterday, cadets received the following e-mail retracting the promotion of Operation Christmas Child:

 “My apologies for the below message as it was not sent to the proper audience. The Cadet Chaplain Corps will be resending through the proper channels and to the proper audience.

Weinstein said he doesn’t have a problem with secular toy drives – but Graham’s, he said, crossed the line.

“Franklin Graham is a fundamentalist – a total enemy of the Constitution – an absolutely incredible Islamophobe,” Weinstein said.

He argued that Operation Christmas Child should have been promoted through the Academy’s chaplains – not the entire Academy. And that’s exactly where the project rests – in the hands of the chaplains.

“The kids will still get their toys,” he said acknowledging that it will only be promoted to a smaller subset of people.

Operation Christmas Child said they were unaware of the controversy at the Air Force Academy.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/air-force-academy-backs-away-from-christmas-charity.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: MCWAY on November 04, 2011, 11:10:25 AM
Giving kids toys on Christmas........AAAAAAA AAHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 04, 2011, 11:17:08 AM
Giving kids toys on Christmas........AAAAAAA AAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

The horror . . . .
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on November 12, 2011, 11:39:27 AM
Radical Fundie Christians gather to protest the religious freedom of their fellow citizens

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/detroit-faith-leaders-condemn-11-11-11-christian-prayer-event-vilifying-muslims/

Some Detroit Faith Leaders Condemn 11-11-11 Christian Prayer Event

Friday, November 11th, 2011 is an unusual day.  So unusual, in fact, that it occurs only once every 100 years. While some people are planning to mark the triple convergence of 11′s with a splash, hoping it will bring them good fortune, others are planning to rid Detroit of demons – Muslim “demons,” that is.

As The Blaze previously reported, Evangelical group known as “The Call,” headed by Lou Engle, is planning a prayer rally at Ford Field in Detroit on November 11th, with the goal of uplifting the city of Detroit, “a microcosm of our national crisis,” as Engle describes it.

Engle believes Detroit is “God’s staging ground for healing and prayer,” capable of producing “a prayer that can change the nation.”  He points out that Detroit is rife with “economic collapse, racial tension, the rising tide of the Islamic movement, and the shedding of our children’s innocent blood on the streets and yet unborn.”

Some leaders of Detroit’s Christian and Muslim communities, however, have expressed concern about the real aim of the planned rally. They believe The Call’s leaders frequently “demonize Islam and promote ‘Dominionist’ theology, which advocates a takeover of government, media and business by conservative Christians.”

And the Council for Islamic Relations (CAIR) is calling on mosques across the Detroit area to beef up security in preparation for the event.

To counter the planned rally, local leaders gathered Thursday afternoon in Detroit’s Grand Circus Park to promote an alternative event “for people of faith to pray for Detroit in an inclusive, non-political way,” and to denounce Lou Engle’s rally at Ford Field as “un-Christian, “un-American,” and “idolatrous.”

Critics of Engle point to his intentions of converting “Muslims to Christianity before they turn Michigan into an Islamic state,” as cause for concern.  Indeed Engle has alienated many potential sympathizers with statements such as this:

“At 11-11-11 the Lord just clearly showed to us, you got to pray all night long because it’s when the Muslims sleep and all over the world right now Muslims in the night are having dreams of Jesus, we believe that God wants to invade with His love Dearborn with dreams of Jesus.  We’re gathering together to say God, pour out your grace and revelations of Jesus all over Dearborn and the Muslim communities of North and South America.”

An additional element of controversy surfaced when several of Detroit’s most prominent African-American pastors agreed to support and join Engle’s rally.  Other pastors came to their defense, however, indicating that they were tricked into believing this was a “nice, goody-goody event and we’re going to sing kumbaya.”

On Friday, 11/11/11, the day of “reckoning,” all shall be revealed, or so Engle says:

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 12, 2011, 11:50:11 AM
Awesome.

Penn State and Nebraska Teams Pray Together For Child Sex Abuse Victims
By Noel Sheppard | November 12, 2011

There was a touching scene before Saturday's Penn State-Nebraska football game when all the players and coaches from both teams joined in the middle of the field to say a prayer for the victims in the emerging child sex abuse scandal that has rocked the nation (video follows with commentary): [click on the link to see the video]

May G-d bless all the victims and families taken advantage of by members of the Penn State University faculty and donors, and let there be swift justice for those that were involved in these heinous acts as well as for anyone that assisted in covering them up all these years.

(http://newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/thumbnail_photos/2011/November/Nebraska.jpg)

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2011/11/12/penn-state-and-nebraska-teams-pray-together-child-sex-abuse-victims
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on November 12, 2011, 11:57:33 AM
Awesome.

Penn State and Nebraska Teams Pray Together For Child Sex Abuse Victims
By Noel Sheppard | November 12, 2011

There was a touching scene before Saturday's Penn State-Nebraska football game when all the players and coaches from both teams joined in the middle of the field to say a prayer for the victims in the emerging child sex abuse scandal that has rocked the nation (video follows with commentary): [click on the link to see the video]

May G-d bless all the victims and families taken advantage of by members of the Penn State University faculty and donors, and let there be swift justice for those that were involved in these heinous acts as well as for anyone that assisted in covering them up all these years.

(http://newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/thumbnail_photos/2011/November/Nebraska.jpg)

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2011/11/12/penn-state-and-nebraska-teams-pray-together-child-sex-abuse-victims

yeah - all that prayer is going to do a lot of good for those poor kids who were raped by that freak while everyone looked the other way.

how can someone witness a child or anyone being raped and not do something about it immediately?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 18, 2011, 09:51:13 AM
Proposal to bring back "In God We Trust" on Georgia License Plates
by Bree Tracey | November 16, 2011

On a typical Georgia license plate you'll see a pastoral image of green fields and peaches, but one thing you won't find is the motto "In God We Trust."

Sen. Bill Heath (R-GA) is trying to change this by filing a proposal Tuesday to make the phrase "In God We Trust" the default motto on all Georgia license plates, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

Last spring, the state held a public contest to pick a new license plate design. The Revenue Department's website showed entries with the "In God We Trust" motto on it and did not make it clear the motto was not a permanent part of each design, so people were forced to re-vote.

Motorists can already purchase a sticker with the motto for $1 that can be placed over the county name decal that comes standard on each license plate, but Sen. Heath wants to reverse this order. He proposed for the motto to appear on all Georgia license plates after July 1st, leaving motorists with the option to cover the motto with a decal sticker if they wanted.

Tuesday was the first day state lawmakers could submit proposed laws and resolution in advance of next year's legislation session that begins January 9.

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/11/16/proposal-bring-back-god-we-trust-georgia-license-plates?test=latestnews
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: kcballer on November 18, 2011, 09:53:54 AM
Awesome.

Penn State and Nebraska Teams Pray Together For Child Sex Abuse Victims
By Noel Sheppard | November 12, 2011

There was a touching scene before Saturday's Penn State-Nebraska football game when all the players and coaches from both teams joined in the middle of the field to say a prayer for the victims in the emerging child sex abuse scandal that has rocked the nation (video follows with commentary): [click on the link to see the video]

May G-d bless all the victims and families taken advantage of by members of the Penn State University faculty and donors, and let there be swift justice for those that were involved in these heinous acts as well as for anyone that assisted in covering them up all these years.

(http://newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/thumbnail_photos/2011/November/Nebraska.jpg)

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2011/11/12/penn-state-and-nebraska-teams-pray-together-child-sex-abuse-victims

Prayer didn't stop the catholic church being pedophiles.  How will it do anything here?  Hmmm?  it won't.  Pray is a selfish act designed to make one feel better about their own self interest.  Oh well i'm not going to actually help but i'll pray so yeah that makes it okay.  Loser.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 18, 2011, 09:59:50 AM
Prayer didn't stop the catholic church being pedophiles.  How will it do anything here?  Hmmm?  it won't.  Pray is a selfish act designed to make one feel better about their own self interest.  Oh well i'm not going to actually help but i'll pray so yeah that makes it okay.  Loser.

The entire Nebraska and Penn State football teams disagree with you.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: kcballer on November 18, 2011, 10:02:00 AM
The entire Nebraska and Penn State football teams disagree with you.   :)

Oh no!  A bunch of footballers disagree with me.   ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 18, 2011, 10:02:44 AM
Oh no!  A bunch of footballers disagree with me.   ::)

Yes, they do.  As does the vast majority of the country. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on November 18, 2011, 10:14:55 AM
Yes, they do.  As does the vast majority of the country.  

the vast majority of the country thinks praying for child rape victims is somehow helping the victims?

where did you get that idea?

Instead they should pray that Sandusky makes a fuil confession and then puts a bullet in his head

that would actually be helpful to society and it might even make the victims feel a bit better too
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: kcballer on November 18, 2011, 10:18:09 AM
Yes, they do.  As does the vast majority of the country. 

haha and that's why we have child molestation because instead of doing something about it, people like you would rather 'pray' about it.  great solution.  How's that working out for ya?  ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 18, 2011, 10:21:32 AM
haha and that's why we have child molestation because instead of doing something about it, people like you would rather 'pray' about it.  great solution.  How's that working out for ya?  ::)

Actually, I think pedophiles should be one and done.  The recidivism rate is astronomical. 

In any event, the Penn State/Nebraska prayer was pretty awesome. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on November 18, 2011, 10:26:21 AM
Actually, I think pedophiles should be one and done.  The recidivism rate is astronomical. 

In any event, the Penn State/Nebraska prayer was pretty awesome. 

what was so awesome about it ?

just a bunch of people praying

it happens every day all over the world.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 18, 2011, 09:17:04 PM
What a pathetic life these people lead.  Running around the country crying about religious symbols.   ::)

Military Investigates Memorial Cross at Camp Pendleton
Nov 18, 2011

Military officials at Camp Pendleton are investigating a cross that was erected by a group of former Marines to honor their fallen colleagues, after an atheist group objected to the monument.

“Camp Pendleton legal authorities are researching and reviewing the issue in order to make a judicious decision,” Lt. Ryan Finnegan said in a statement to Fox News & Commentary. “As Marines, we are proud to honor our fallen brothers, and are also proud of our extended Marine Corps family. However, it is important to follow procedure and use appropriate processes for doing this in a correct manner to protect the sentiment from question as well as be good stewards of our taxpayer dollars.”

(http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/marines.jpg)
Photo Courtesy of LA Times

The Los Angeles Times documented the former Marines as they carried the 13-foot cross up a steep hill – a Veterans Day journey that took two hours. They were accompanied by the widows and children of the fallen Marines. You can read the LA Times blog by clicking here.

The cross was erected and dedicated to the memory of Maj. Douglas Zembiec, Maj. Ray Mendoza, Lance Cpl. Aaron Austin and Lance Cpl. Robert Zurheide. It replaced another cross that was destroyed by a brush fire in 2003.

The former Marines chose to carry the cross, rather than use a vehicle. They told the newspaper that carrying the cross was an act of profound symbolism: the fallen are never forgotten, the mission never falters.

But for Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, the cross is a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state.

“The question is why government officials would allow this to happen,” Torpy told Fox News & Commentary.

Torpy said he contacted Camp Pendleton to raise objections on behalf of a number of his members who read the LA Times story.

“I can definitely understand losing someone in combat,” Torpy said. “I was in Iraq. But it’s unfortunate that now I have to be a bad guy and ask why is this on federal land instead of on private land.”
Torpy said he could have given the Marines a pass.

“Maybe, but not really,” he said. “This is a large, 13-foot cross – generally these things are posted up in places that lord over the surrounding area.”

He said the allowing the cross to remain on Camp Pendleton property is “exploiting my service in order to gain special privileges for Christianity and that’s not fair to me.”
Lt. Finnegan confirmed to Fox News that the cross is on Camp Pendleton land.

He said the former Marines who erected the cross were “private individuals acting solely in their personal capacities. As such they were not acting in any official position or capacity that may be construed as an endorsement of a specific religious denomination by the Department of Defense or the U.S. Marine Corps.”

Depending on the outcome of the review, the cross could be removed.

Torpy said that’s the appropriate thing to do.

“I’m sure there’s maybe some way that this could be worked out, but wandering up a hill at Camp Pendleton with an exclusively sectarian religious monument, a big one, and say ‘I’m just going to do this on my own – that’s not how the federal government works,” he said.

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council and a former Marine, said he was disgusted by the atheist’s complaints.

“It’s really outrageous and it shows the hostile environment that’s been created by this (Obama) administration towards religious freedom,” Perkins told Fox News. “At some point, we have to say, enough is enough.”

Perkins said radical atheists are attacking the U.S. Military.

“I’ve actually climbed those hills at Camp Pendleton and getting a cross to the top of them is no small challenge,” Perkins said. “But unfortunately, the greater challenge is to ensure that radical secularists do not crucify the freedoms won by these heroic efforts of the men and women who serve – on the cross of political correctness.”

Lt. Finnegan said it was unclear how long the investigation might take.

http://radio.foxnews.com//toddstarnes/top-stories/military-investigates-memorial-cross-at-camp-pendleton.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on November 18, 2011, 10:39:13 PM
What a pathetic life these people lead.  Running around the country crying about religious symbols.   ::)
Military Investigates Memorial Cross at Camp Pendleton
Nov 18, 2011

Military officials at Camp Pendleton are investigating a cross that was erected by a group of former Marines to honor their fallen colleagues, after an atheist group objected to the monument.

“Camp Pendleton legal authorities are researching and reviewing the issue in order to make a judicious decision,” Lt. Ryan Finnegan said in a statement to Fox News & Commentary. “As Marines, we are proud to honor our fallen brothers, and are also proud of our extended Marine Corps family. However, it is important to follow procedure and use appropriate processes for doing this in a correct manner to protect the sentiment from question as well as be good stewards of our taxpayer dollars.”

(http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/marines.jpg)
Photo Courtesy of LA Times

The Los Angeles Times documented the former Marines as they carried the 13-foot cross up a steep hill – a Veterans Day journey that took two hours. They were accompanied by the widows and children of the fallen Marines. You can read the LA Times blog by clicking here.

The cross was erected and dedicated to the memory of Maj. Douglas Zembiec, Maj. Ray Mendoza, Lance Cpl. Aaron Austin and Lance Cpl. Robert Zurheide. It replaced another cross that was destroyed by a brush fire in 2003.

The former Marines chose to carry the cross, rather than use a vehicle. They told the newspaper that carrying the cross was an act of profound symbolism: the fallen are never forgotten, the mission never falters.

But for Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, the cross is a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state.

“The question is why government officials would allow this to happen,” Torpy told Fox News & Commentary.

Torpy said he contacted Camp Pendleton to raise objections on behalf of a number of his members who read the LA Times story.

“I can definitely understand losing someone in combat,” Torpy said. “I was in Iraq. But it’s unfortunate that now I have to be a bad guy and ask why is this on federal land instead of on private land.”
Torpy said he could have given the Marines a pass.

“Maybe, but not really,” he said. “This is a large, 13-foot cross – generally these things are posted up in places that lord over the surrounding area.”

He said the allowing the cross to remain on Camp Pendleton property is “exploiting my service in order to gain special privileges for Christianity and that’s not fair to me.”
Lt. Finnegan confirmed to Fox News that the cross is on Camp Pendleton land.

He said the former Marines who erected the cross were “private individuals acting solely in their personal capacities. As such they were not acting in any official position or capacity that may be construed as an endorsement of a specific religious denomination by the Department of Defense or the U.S. Marine Corps.”

Depending on the outcome of the review, the cross could be removed.

Torpy said that’s the appropriate thing to do.

“I’m sure there’s maybe some way that this could be worked out, but wandering up a hill at Camp Pendleton with an exclusively sectarian religious monument, a big one, and say ‘I’m just going to do this on my own – that’s not how the federal government works,” he said.

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council and a former Marine, said he was disgusted by the atheist’s complaints.

“It’s really outrageous and it shows the hostile environment that’s been created by this (Obama) administration towards religious freedom,” Perkins told Fox News. “At some point, we have to say, enough is enough.”

Perkins said radical atheists are attacking the U.S. Military.

“I’ve actually climbed those hills at Camp Pendleton and getting a cross to the top of them is no small challenge,” Perkins said. “But unfortunately, the greater challenge is to ensure that radical secularists do not crucify the freedoms won by these heroic efforts of the men and women who serve – on the cross of political correctness.”

Lt. Finnegan said it was unclear how long the investigation might take.

http://radio.foxnews.com//toddstarnes/top-stories/military-investigates-memorial-cross-at-camp-pendleton.html

you're referring to the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers ?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 02, 2011, 11:05:51 AM
Preach B. Hussein.   :)

Obama delivers very Christian message at Christmas tree lighting
By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

(CNN) - President Barack Obama delivered an unusually stark Christian message at the White House Christmas tree lighting Thursday night, saying Christ's message "lies at the heart of my Christian faith and that of millions of Americans."

"More than 2,000 years ago, a child was born to two faithful travelers who could find rest only in a stable, among the cattle and the sheep," Obama said at the tree lighting ceremony, a longstanding White House tradition.

"But this was not just any child," Obama continued. "Christ’s birth made the angels rejoice and attracted shepherds and kings from afar. He was a manifestation of God’s love for us."

Obama has been more public and specific about his religious beliefs since polls last year showed that only a minority of Americans know he is Christian. Last Easter, Obama got unusually specific about his beliefs on Christ's resurrection at a White House prayer breakfast.

Some conservative Christian leaders have questioned Obama's Christian faith, even though Obama got his start in politics through church-based political organizing and has written about accepting Jesus in his 20s.

Last month, South Carolina Christian conservative leader Bob Jones III told a reporter “I’ve no reason to think (Obama is) Christian."

“Some people will say whatever they think the politically helpful thing would be,” Jones said. “I say, ‘Where is the evidence that he is a Christian?’ ”

In his remarks at Thursday's tree lighting, Obama said that Jesus "grew up to become a leader with a servant’s heart who taught us a message as simple as it is powerful: that we should love God, and love our neighbor as ourselves."

"So long as the gifts and the parties are happening, it’s important for us to keep in mind the central message of this season," he said, "and keep Christ’s words not only in our thoughts, but also in our deeds."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/01/obama-delivers-very-christian-message-at-christmas-tree-lighting/comment-page-2/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 02, 2011, 07:48:00 PM
Who comes up with this stupid stuff?   ::)

U.S. Military to Rescind Policy Banning Bibles at Hospital
Dec 2, 2011
By Todd Starnes

Walter Reed National Military Medical Center said they are rescinding a policy that prohibits family members of wounded military troops from bringing Bibles or any religious reading materials to their loved ones.

The decision to rescind the ban on Bibles came exactly one day after a Republican lawmaker denounced the policy on the House floor and called on President Obama to publicly renounce the military policy.
“The President of the United States should address this and should excoriate the people who brought about this policy and the individual who brought it about should be dismissed from the United States Military,” Rep. Steve King (R-IA) told Fox News & Commentary.

King spoke from the House floor Thursday blasting a policy memorandum from the commander of Walter Reed National Military Medical Center written by Chief of Staff C.W. Callahan. The September 14th memo covers guidelines for “wounded, ill, and injured partners in care.”

“No religious items (i.e. Bibles, reading material, and/or artifacts) are allowed to be given away or used during a visit,” the policy states.

“That means you can’t bring in a Bible and read from it when you visit your son or your daughter, perhaps – or your wife or husband,” King said. “It means a priest that might be coming in to visit someone on their death bed couldn’t bring in the Eucharist, couldn’t offer Last Rites. This is the most outrageous affront.”

A spokesperson for the medical center told Fox News late Friday that the policy will be rewritten and its intent will be made “crystal clear.”

“The instructions about the Bibles and reading material have been rescinded,” said Sandy Dean, a public affairs officer for Walter Reed. “It will be written to articulate our initial intention which was to respect religious and cultural practices of our patients.”

Dean said the instruction was “in no way meant to prohibit family members from providing religious items to their loved ones at all.”
If that’s the case, why is the policy being rescinded?

“We don’t want there to be any misinterpretation of what we’re trying to say,” she told Fox News. “We appreciate Congressman King bringing this to our attention. We don’t want our instructions to be ambiguous.”

We appreciate him bringing it to our attention.

Rep. King said the military has some explaining to do.

“I don’t think there’s any excuse for it and there’s no talking it away,” King told Fox News. “The very existence of this, whether it’s enforced or not, tells you what kind of a mindset is there.”

“The idea that these soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines that have fought to defend our Constitution, and that includes our First Amendment rights to religious liberty –would be denied that religious liberty when they are lying in a hospital bed recovering from wounds incurred while defending that liberty is the most bitter and offensive type of an irony that I can think of,” he said.

The policy has brought strong condemnation from religious and conservative advocacy groups.

“It flies in the face of not only the Bill of Rights, but 200 years of federal law,” said Ken Klukwoski, of the Family Research Council. “This current administration is showing unprecedented hostility towards those practicing the Christian faith.”

“But beyond that,” he told Fox News, “We’ve also seen a militantly secular attitude of trying to sterilize the Defense Department of all references to faith.”

Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, echoed Rep. King’s demand that whoever is responsible for the memo be fired.

“It cannot be allowed to stand,” Land told Fox News. “It must be rescinded and the people responsible for perpetrating it should be fired.”
Land said the policy “shows the ugly face of the pseudo-tolerance of secularism.”

“They claim to be tolerant but this is as intolerant as you can be – to not allow wounded soldiers to have religious artifacts,” Land said.
King said Americans must “take a very strong stand.”

“Christians are generally nice people and for that reason they can victimize the Christians in this country,” he said. “There was a reason that Christ gave us the demonstration of righteous anger when he threw the money changers out of the temple. It gives us some license to throw these kinds of people out of the military.”

King said he’s been alarmed at a trend he’s seen to scrub Christianity from the military – most recently the decision to remove a cross from an Army chapel in northern Afghanistan because it violated Army regulations.

He placed the blame on the Obama Administration.

“This is Orwellian,” he said. “Who would have believed even two or five years ago that the Executive branch of government led by our Commander in Chief Barack Obama would produce some kind of document that would prohibit family members coming into our military hospitals

Klukwoski said he’s noticed a similar trend in what he called “anti-faith measures.”

“We are seeing a shocking level of hostility towards religious faith but beyond that – we’ve also seen a militantly secular attitude of trying to sterilize the defense department of all references to faith and references,” he said.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/u-s-military-to-rescind-policy-banning-bibles-at-hospital.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on December 02, 2011, 10:49:05 PM
^^^

strawman and his cronies
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 11, 2011, 11:12:11 AM
Why can't these people just enjoy the most wonderful time of the year?  How miserable are their lives?   ::)

Atheist Group Seeks Banner to Join Christmas Display
Published December 10, 2011
Associated Press

ATHENS, Texas –  A national atheist foundation plans to seek permission to hoist its own banner to join secular and religious Christmas displays on an East Texas courthouse square.

The display surrounding the Henderson County Courthouse in Athens includes a traditional Nativity scene, as well as multiple Santa Clauses, elves, wreathes, garland, trumpeters, dwarfs, snowmen, reindeer and Christmas trees, the Athens Daily Review reported.

"We've got an array of decorations and feel that we are in compliance with federal law," County Judge Richard Sanders told the newspaper. "We're not pushing any religious down anybody's throat. These are holiday decorations we enjoy."

However, county officials received a letter Monday from the Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, which argued the seasonal display on courthouse grounds amounts to an unconstitutional endorsement of the Christian faith.

Foundation attorney Stephanie Schmitt says that since the county allows the nonprofit group Keep Athens Beautiful to erect the displays on the town square, they amount to a "public forum." Schmitt told the newspaper the group would ask to put up its own display.

Schmitt said the foundation had received 20 to 25 complaints this holiday season of religious displays it regards as illegal.

In Elmwood City, Pa., the foundation has proposed hoisting a banner that reads: "At this season of the Winter Solstice, LET REASON PREVAIL. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Meanwhile, Henderson County Sheriff Ray Nutt said his office received a report Thursday that someone had defaced some of the figures in the display, but the markings were later removed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/10/atheist-group-seeks-banner-to-join-christmas-display/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on December 11, 2011, 12:55:13 PM
^^^

strawman and his cronies

speak for yourself and I'll speak for myself

this is one instance where I'm in complete agreement with Bum and I thought this story might have been a joke

Why in the world would we care if soldiers have bible, koran, etc... I assume they have them in the field and I can't believe they wouldn't be allowed to have them in a hospital.  Don't these places have chaplains?  It just makes no sense at all. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: garebear on December 11, 2011, 05:00:41 PM
Yes, they do.  As does the vast majority of the country. 
At one point the vast majority of the country were absolute white supremacists. Were they correct in their racism since they formed a majority?

Learn to think independently, child.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on December 11, 2011, 05:17:26 PM
At one point the vast majority of the country were absolute white supremacists. Were they correct in their racism since they formed a majority?

Learn to think independently, child.
LOL learn how to disprove a point, does the white supremacists being wrong make another group wrong?


moron...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on December 11, 2011, 05:18:24 PM
speak for yourself and I'll speak for myself

this is one instance where I'm in complete agreement with Bum and I thought this story might have been a joke

Why in the world would we care if soldiers have bible, koran, etc... I assume they have them in the field and I can't believe they wouldn't be allowed to have them in a hospital.  Don't these places have chaplains?  It just makes no sense at all. 
your liberalism does have limits, I am impressed sir
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: garebear on December 11, 2011, 05:27:34 PM
LOL learn how to disprove a point, does the white supremacists being wrong make another group wrong?


moron...
Try to make some sense, even just once in a while. You know, to surprise us.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on December 11, 2011, 05:47:38 PM
Try to make some sense, even just once in a while. You know, to surprise us.
says the man who is gay yet subscribes to evolution...

tons of sense in that ;)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on December 11, 2011, 06:02:14 PM
says the man who is gay yet subscribes to evolution...

tons of sense in that ;)
I missed the joke, let me in on it lol...  by the way, grats on the win today.  nice!!!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on December 11, 2011, 06:12:47 PM
I missed the joke, let me in on it lol...  by the way, grats on the win today.  nice!!!
To you too sir...Im still not buying into the hype but the man plays with alot of passion and it is fun to watch.

I think more than anything he brings the level of play of those around him up which is they sign of a good leader.

what do you think the meaning of life is to a person who is non religious and believes in evolution?

Well its pretty simple when you think about it, The idea behind evolution itself is to propagate your species, to ensure the continued existence through procreation. As there is no religious aspect to their thinking there isnt anything outside of that natural law that isnt a man made ideal.

Homosexuality is an evolutionary dead end as it doesnt serve the purpose of continuing the existence of our species.

There is clearly a contradiction in belief and action here which is lacking in common sense.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on December 11, 2011, 07:04:45 PM
your liberalism does have limits, I am impressed sir

once again, good job calling me sir

my "liberalism" exists solely in your head

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Soul Crusher on December 11, 2011, 07:28:33 PM
once again, good job calling me sir

my "liberalism" exists solely in your head



Your liberalism fits perfect in the ex USSR. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on December 11, 2011, 08:02:35 PM
Your liberalism fits perfect in the ex USSR. 

yeah, that makes a lot of sense
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Hugo Chavez on December 11, 2011, 10:46:01 PM
To you too sir...Im still not buying into the hype but the man plays with alot of passion and it is fun to watch.

I think more than anything he brings the level of play of those around him up which is they sign of a good leader.

what do you think the meaning of life is to a person who is non religious and believes in evolution?

Well its pretty simple when you think about it, The idea behind evolution itself is to propagate your species, to ensure the continued existence through procreation. As there is no religious aspect to their thinking there isnt anything outside of that natural law that isnt a man made ideal.

Homosexuality is an evolutionary dead end as it doesnt serve the purpose of continuing the existence of our species.

There is clearly a contradiction in belief and action here which is lacking in common sense.
What if it's just nature's way of natural selection?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: LurkerNoMore on December 12, 2011, 04:54:06 AM
The entire Nebraska and Penn State football teams disagree with you.   :)

Have been alerted to the benefits that have occurred from these footballers pray session?

Wasn't Palin's answer to the oil spill crisis to pray for Divine Intervention to come and remove the oil from the ocean?  How'd that turn out?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on December 12, 2011, 10:32:49 AM
What if it's just nature's way of natural selection?
It undoubtedly is sir, but the drive to procreate is the essence of life especially for a non religious subscriber of evolution.

Homosexuality is partly a genetic abnormality and partially choice. Just like having a propensity for violence is partially genetic and choice to let that predisposition have its way.

A person who believes in evolution and is non religious that chooses to allow their homosexual predisposition from procreating isn't fullfilling the main purpose of their life
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 12, 2011, 01:30:42 PM
At one point the vast majority of the country were absolute white supremacists. Were they correct in their racism since they formed a majority?

Learn to think independently, child.

(http://x0f.xanga.com/b2d8256234330269640904/b145550923.jpg)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 12, 2011, 01:32:02 PM
Have been alerted to the benefits that have occurred from these footballers pray session?

Wasn't Palin's answer to the oil spill crisis to pray for Divine Intervention to come and remove the oil from the ocean?  How'd that turn out?

Don't understand your first question. 

I doubt the accuracy of your second question. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skip8282 on December 12, 2011, 03:21:02 PM
haha and that's why we have child molestation because instead of doing something about it, people like you would rather 'pray' about it.  great solution.  How's that working out for ya?  ::)


Yeah, we have child molestation because people saying prayers.  ::)

I think it's natural to want to think that people posting about politics are a little more learned and informed than a lot of others.  But, with your level of education and logic, it shoots that idea right down...doh!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 15, 2011, 09:56:39 AM
Why can't these people just enjoy the most wonderful time of the year?  How miserable are their lives?   ::)

Atheist Group Seeks Banner to Join Christmas Display
Published December 10, 2011
Associated Press

ATHENS, Texas –  A national atheist foundation plans to seek permission to hoist its own banner to join secular and religious Christmas displays on an East Texas courthouse square.

The display surrounding the Henderson County Courthouse in Athens includes a traditional Nativity scene, as well as multiple Santa Clauses, elves, wreathes, garland, trumpeters, dwarfs, snowmen, reindeer and Christmas trees, the Athens Daily Review reported.

"We've got an array of decorations and feel that we are in compliance with federal law," County Judge Richard Sanders told the newspaper. "We're not pushing any religious down anybody's throat. These are holiday decorations we enjoy."

However, county officials received a letter Monday from the Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, which argued the seasonal display on courthouse grounds amounts to an unconstitutional endorsement of the Christian faith.

Foundation attorney Stephanie Schmitt says that since the county allows the nonprofit group Keep Athens Beautiful to erect the displays on the town square, they amount to a "public forum." Schmitt told the newspaper the group would ask to put up its own display.

Schmitt said the foundation had received 20 to 25 complaints this holiday season of religious displays it regards as illegal.

In Elmwood City, Pa., the foundation has proposed hoisting a banner that reads: "At this season of the Winter Solstice, LET REASON PREVAIL. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Meanwhile, Henderson County Sheriff Ray Nutt said his office received a report Thursday that someone had defaced some of the figures in the display, but the markings were later removed.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/10/atheist-group-seeks-banner-to-join-christmas-display/

Pathetic.

Atheist Messages Displace California Park Nativity Scenes
Published December 13, 2011
Associated Press

AP/Ringo H.W. Chiu
(http://a57.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/U.S./396/223/atheistsigns.jpg)
A woman walks past a sign displaying an Atheist message along Ocean Avenue at Palisades Park in Santa Monica, Calif. Tuesday, Dec. 13, 2011.

SANTA MONICA, Calif. –  Atheist messages have displaced most of the Christmas nativity scenes that local churches had placed in a California park for nearly six decades, and the churches say it was a coordinated attack.

Local churches have traditionally claimed 14 of the 21 display spaces to illustrate the story of the birth of Jesus Christ.

But atheists got all but three of the spaces this year because of a new lottery system.

"Our belief is that these new applicants have been working together to displace and push out the nativity scenes from the park, rather than erecting a full display of their own," said Hunter Jameson, a spokesman for a coalition of the city's churches.

The Santa Monica Daily Press reported that churches had little or no competition for the spaces during the past 57 years. This year, 13 people bid for spaces, prompting City Hall to use a random lottery system to allot the spots.

Two individuals got 18 spaces. One person can request a maximum of nine.

Damon Vix is behind the effort.

Last year, he put up a sign quoting Thomas Jefferson: "Religions are all alike -- founded on fables and mythologies." There were also selections on U.S. Supreme Court decisions about the importance of separating church and state.

Vix now helps other atheists populate the park spaces, including American Atheists Inc. and the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

Secularists feel a need to be more vocal and express their civil rights, he said.

"For 60 years, it's almost exclusively been the point of view of Christians putting up nativity scenes for a whole city block," Vix said.

Jameson pushed the city to give "local preference" in awarding the spaces, since Dix doesn't live in Santa Monica.

City Attorney Marsha Moutrie wrote, however, that the Christmas displays cross the boundary into First Amendment free speech rights, which know no geographical boundaries.

"Everyone has equal rights to use the streets and parks for expressive activities, irrespective of residency," Moutrie wrote.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/13/atheist-messages-displace-california-park-nativity-scenes/?test=latestnews
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 15, 2011, 09:58:57 AM
Busy season for paranoid anti-religious extremists. 

The plaintiffs ask for the homeland security law to be stripped of its references to God. They also ask for monetary damages, claiming to have suffered sleeping disorders and "mental pain and anguish."

"Plaintiffs also suffer anxiety from the belief that the existence of these unconstitutional laws suggest that their very safety as residents of Kentucky may be in the hands of fanatics, traitors or fools," according to the suit.


Bwahahahahahaha! 

Atheists sue to take God out of state's terrorism law
By John Cheves — jcheves@herald-leader.com
Posted: 12:00am on Dec 2, 2008; Modified: 9:46am on Dec 2, 2008

An atheists-rights group is suing the Kentucky Office of Homeland Security because state law requires the agency to stress "dependence on Almighty God as being vital to the security of the Commonwealth."

American Atheists of Parsippany, N.J., and 10 non-religious Kentuckians are the plaintiffs in the lawsuit, set to be filed Tuesday in Franklin Circuit Court.

Edwin Kagin, a Boone County lawyer and the national legal director of American Atheists, said he was appalled to read in the Herald-Leader last week that state law establishes praising God — and installing a plaque in God's honor — as the first duty of the Homeland Security Office.

The state and federal constitutions both prohibit government from getting involved in religion, Kagin said Monday.

"This is one of the most outrageous things I've seen in 35 years of practicing law. It's breathtakingly unconstitutional," Kagin said.

Gov. Steve Beshear's office had not seen the suit and therefore had no comment, spokesman Jay Blanton said.

The requirement to credit God for Kentucky's protection was tucked into 2006 homeland security legislation by state Rep. Tom Riner, D-Louisville, a Southern Baptist minister.

"This is recognition that government alone cannot guarantee the perfect safety of the people of Kentucky," Riner said last week.

Riner said he expects Homeland Security to include language recognizing God's benevolent protection in its official reports and other materials — sometimes the agency does, and sometimes it doesn't — and to maintain a plaque with that message at the state's Emergency Operations Center in Frankfort.

In the suit, American Atheists argues that Homeland Security should focus on public-safety threats rather than promote religion. The suit notes that the federal and state homeland security agencies were created as a result of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks by Muslim fundamentalists, and it refers to those attacks as "a faith-based initiative."

The plaintiffs ask for the homeland security law to be stripped of its references to God. They also ask for monetary damages, claiming to have suffered sleeping disorders and "mental pain and anguish."

"Plaintiffs also suffer anxiety from the belief that the existence of these unconstitutional laws suggest that their very safety as residents of Kentucky may be in the hands of fanatics, traitors or fools," according to the suit.


http://www.kentucky.com/2008/12/02/612255/atheists-sue-to-take-god-out-of.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 15, 2011, 10:04:11 AM
School Vows to Fight For Nativity
Dec 15, 2011
By Todd Starnes/TWITTER

The superintendent of a public school district in Arkansas said it’s time for Christians to take a stand and that’s why he’s decided to reinstate a Nativity scene – in spite of possible legal action.

“Enough is enough,” said Jerry Noble, superintendent of the Green County Tech school district. “It’s His birthday. We celebrate Jesus’ birthday. One person should not be offended by that. We don’t leave it up all year. We’re not promoting religion. It’s not an effort to convert anybody.”

Noble told Fox News & Commentary the controversy surrounds a Nativity scene on a bulletin board at Green County Tech Primary School. The bulletin board also included the words, “Happy Birthday, Jesus.”

Noble said they had received some complaints about the decorations and after consulting with an attorney, he decided to remove the Nativity.

“My personal belief is that we should fight this sort of thing, but I didn’t want to put the school district at risk,” he said. “I could not take it upon myself to get the school in a legal entanglement over separation of church and state because we would have to use tax dollars to fight it and that’s not my job to do that.”

(http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/NATIVITY.jpg)
Nativity Bulletin Board - photo by KUAR

But his decision sparked a massive outcry in the community – and one organization offered to cover any legal costs the school system might incur over a lawsuit. That offer helped change the superintendent’s mind.

“To be honest with you, we offended a lot more people by taking it down than leaving it up,” Noble said. “So we put it back up.”

Noble, who is a Christian, said he doesn’t understand why anyone would be offended by the Nativity.

“Personally, I’m a Christian and if I’m going to offend somebody, I’d rather offend the non-believer – if it’s legal to do so,” he said.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas said told radio station KUAR that the school district must obey the Constitution.

“To say that if you have to offend somebody you’d rather offend those in the minority, well that’s just what the Constitution and the First Amendment are all about – not offending the minority, standing up for everybody’s right to practice their religion whether there is one person in your town or a thousand,” ACLU Director Rita Sklar told KUAR. “That the superintendent and perhaps others don’t have respect for that, I think is very sad.”

The Nativity scene was erected by Kay Williams, a counselor at the primary school. She’s been doing it for more than 20 years without any hint of controversy.

“We do live in the Bible Belt,” Williams told the Paragould Daily Press. “One thing that really disturbed most of [the supporters] was we hear about things like this all the time in other parts of the country. But, this is kind of a first for the Bible Belt, here in Arkansas.”

That, Williams told the newspaper, is why they decided to take a stand.

“I think the people realized [this issue] is here and we better take a stand,” she told the newspaper.

Noble said the community support and the offer for free legal services led to his decision to allow the Nativity back into the primary school.

“The Christians in America have been silent for too long,” Noble said. “That’s why I struggled with it in the beginning.”

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-vows-to-fight-for-nativity.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on December 15, 2011, 04:00:00 PM
I cant believe these ppl dont have anything better to do with their free time.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 15, 2011, 05:28:09 PM
I cant believe these ppl dont have anything better to do with their free time.

Tell me about.  Especially during the holiday season.  Here is another one:

Atty: ‘Silent Night’ is Unconstitutional
Dec 15, 2011
By Todd Starnes/TWITTER
(http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Silent-Night-300x229.jpg)

A group of five, six and seven-year old children will be able to sing ‘Silent Night’ in their Christmas program after Alabama school officials decided to ignore a complaint filed by a group that called the song “unconstitutional.”

The news came as a relief to students and teachers at G.W. Trenholm Primary School in Tuscumbia, AL after they found themselves thrust into the war on Christmas.

“We’ve always sung ‘Silent Night’ and we’ve never had a problem,” Principal Janice Jackson told Fox News & Commentary. “We were just surprised, very surprised.”

Jackson said she received a letter from Americans United for the Separation of Church and State asking them to drop the song from their annual Christmas pageant.

“As a Christian minister, I love the hymn ‘Silent Night, Holy Night,’ but it’s not appropriate in this circumstance,” said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United in a statement to Fox News & Commentary. “This play takes place at a public elementary school and involves very young children.”

Lynn noted that the song “celebrates the birth of Christ as the savior, and not all families believe that.”

“Those who do are free to teach it at home or at church,” Lynn said. “Public schools are not the proper places for religious indoctrination.”

The play, called ‘The Reindeer Rebellion’ is a secular production involving Santa’s reindeer going on strike, Lynn said. He accused a teacher of choosing to “graft this Christian hymn onto the play.”

“We were so surprised because we are such a small school and we’re a small community. We can’t believe we were singled out for this,” Jackson said. “I thought it was a joke but the more I checked into it, I immediately called my superintendent.”

David Cortman, senior counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, told Fox News & Commentary they plan on offering legal services to the school district free of charge in the event someone tries to file a lawsuit.

“Groups on the left such as Americans United have been trying to bully schools across the country all during this Christmas season, Cortman said. “When they tell schools it is unconstitutional to include a song such as ‘Silent Night’ in their Christmas program, they are simply wrong not only as a matter of law but also as a matter of fairness.”

He praised the school system for standing up to Americans United instead of caving in to their demands.

“I think it’s about time that not only Americans but schools specifically stand up to these Grinches who go on this Christmas attack every year yet deny there is any war on Christmas,” Cortman said.

Jackson said the children in grades K-2 didn’t understand the controversy.

“They just love to sing and they were even going to perform sign language with the song,” she said.

The community outcry, though, has been tremendous.

“I think it’s sad,” parent Amy Johnson told television station WHNT in Huntsville. “I don’t think this is the place to make your point politically or religiously. Christmas is about Jesus and that’s what the song is about.”

After consulting with their attorney, the school system decided to allow the students to perform the traditional Christmas carol.

“These children are just five six and seven years old,” Jackson said. “I guess we’re living in that kind of a world.”

She said she is relieved that the boys and girls will be able to sing and sign their song next week at the Christmas program. Had the song been cancelled, Jackson said she worried about how they would have told the children.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-refuses-to-censor-%E2%80%9Csilent-night%E2%80%9D.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 02, 2012, 11:47:49 AM
Conversations with God?  Imagine that.   :)

Gingrich: I Pray Before Major Decisions
Sunday, 01 Jan 2012

ATLANTIC, Iowa—Newt Gingrich spoke about his Catholic faith at several campaign stops, a nod to the Christian evangelical support he is likely to need to succeed in caucuses scheduled here Tuesday.

“I pray before virtually every speech and virtually every major decision,” Gingrich said.

Gingrich has been a Catholic for a few years, having converted after marrying his wife, Callista, whom he credits for his faith.

“Callista is a cradle Catholic and grew up in the Catholic church, I’m a convert. But all I can tell you is I find taking communion an enormously rewarding and deepening experience,” Gingrich said.

Gingrich changed religious denominations several times and his personal life, including his three marriages, has been played out in public. He has said several times he has sought forgiveness in his faith.

“I’ve been very clear publicly I’m not a perfect human being and I’ve made mistakes in my life and I’ve had to apologize to God and to seek reconciliation,” Gingrich said.

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/gingrich-prays-catholic-faith/2012/01/01/id/422728
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 04, 2012, 12:16:43 PM
Politicizing the National Prayer Breakfast?  Shocking.   ::)

Obama reflects on faith in prayer breakfast speech
By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Washington (CNN) - President Barack Obama spoke of his personal faith Thursday as he delivered remarks for the third year in a row at the National Prayer Breakfast.

In addition, Obama used the platform in front of religious dignitaries and politicians to express his vision of how faith and government intersect and can work together.

After his remarks, the president received a standing ovation from the crowd at the Washington Hilton, the White House pool reporter said. Journalists are barred from attending the breakfast with the exception of the White House pool, which follows the president. CNN requested and was denied access to the event.

The breakfast has hosted every president since Eisenhower.

Obama, who, as one administration official said, identifies as a "committed Christian who spends a lot of time working on his Christian walk," noted in the speech that he prays daily.

"I wake up each morning and I say a brief prayer, and I spend a little time in scripture and devotion," he said.

Since he has been in Washington, Obama has not formally joined a church. For nearly 20 years he was a member of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. The president and his staff have noted the logistical difficulties of a sitting president attending services, but he has visited several churches in Washington and worshiped privately with his family at Camp David.

The president also spoke of praying with Billy Graham, and said, "I have fallen on my knees with great regularity since that moment."

In his speech Obama made specific mention of his calls, visits and prayers with Joel Hunter, a megachurch pastor from Florida, and with Bishop T.D. Jakes, a megachurch pastor from Texas.

"From time to time, friends of mine, some of who are here today, friends like Joel Hunter or T.D. Jakes, will come by the Oval Office or they'll call on the phone or they'll send me an e-mail, and we'll pray together, and they'll pray for me and my family, and for our country," he said.

Hunter, who was at the breakfast, said Obama hit the right notes with the crowd.

"The president made a positive and practical application of Jesus' command to love our neighbors," Hunter said. "He connected that moral mandate to the economic and political issues we face, and he let us know that, for him, that common good compassion is an extension of his personal Christian faith."

Jakes was not at the breakfast but, when reached by phone, said he had read a transcript of the speech.

"Anytime we can have an open dialogue about faith on the highest level it is a very good thing," he said.

Jakes said he had "the privilege to pray" with the past three U.S. presidents, and noted of his time praying with Obama, "It's no different from any other president. My plan was to provide prayerful support regardless of his policies, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't."

An administration official speaking on background said Obama viewed the speech as chance to explain his personal faith practices and to show "his desire to step in the gap for those who are vulnerable."

The president also highlighted faith efforts that are particularly of importance to young evangelicals, a voting block he courted heavily in 2008. The Passion Conference, a massive gathering of young Christians that this year took aim at human trafficking, got a nod from the podium, as did other groups with targeted antipoverty efforts.

CNN Money – Obama: Jesus would back my tax-the-rich policy

Others in the room recounted the ease with which the president presented his case for the integration of his faith and policy.

"Each time that I have listened to the president reflect on his Christian faith, I'm struck by the quiet poignancy of his words as he speaks from the heart," said Stephen Schneck, a professor from Catholic University who has advised the administration in the past.

"This morning we all felt this. Most moving for me was the way he spoke of his concern for the poor and marginalized and the personal responsibility he felt to serve these 'least among us,' a responsibility that the president grounded in his daily prayer life," Schneck told CNN. But he added, "Of course, that doesn't change that he made a serious mistake with the HHS mandate."

Is Obama losing the Catholic vote?

The administration was still doing damage control over a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services policy that forces religious schools and institutions that offer employee health insurance to cover FDA-approved contraceptives. The move has angered many Catholics in particular, who oppose the use of contraceptives on religious grounds, and view the policy as an intrusion on their religious liberty.

Hunter, who has been a strong vocal supporter of the president, noted that while there was no rancor in the room about the HHS decision, "there is real disappointment with that decision."

Obama did not directly address the issue in his speech but did allude to it when describing his guiding principles on coming to tough policy decisions.

"We know that part of living in a pluralistic society means that our personal religious beliefs alone can't dictate our response to every challenge we face," he said. He added later, "Our goal should not be to declare our policies as biblical. It is God who is infallible, not us. Michelle reminds me of this often."

White House stands firm on contraception policy

Not long after the president's speech, the White House sent a fact sheet to reporters from Cecilia Munoz, director of the White House Domestic Policy Council. It laid out a point-by-point articulation of the HHS policy, making specific mention that churches will be exempt from the policy and noting Catholic opposition by highlighting the work they have done together.

"The administration has provided substantial resources to Catholic organizations over the past three years, in addition to numerous non-financial partnerships to promote healthy communities and serve the common good," the statement from Munoz reads. "This work includes partnerships with Catholic social service agencies on local responsible fatherhood programs and international anti-hunger/food assistance programs. We look forward to continuing this important work."

Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Alabama, also spoke at the prayer breakfast about the complexity of the balance between religion and governing.

"I think we all had two different experiences of what can happen when we bring faith into the world of government and business," he said. "Sometimes it creates conflict, and when we look at our planet's history, even wars. But in other times - more often, really - true faith can be a reconciling force of amazing power, a power that can make an entire society better."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/02/obama-reflects-on-faith-in-prayer-breakfast-speech/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 04, 2012, 03:49:58 PM
Gingrich: 'While I want your vote, I need your prayers'
by Joy Lin | February 04, 2012

LAS VEGAS -- Newt Gingrich appeared to wipe a tear away Friday night after singing along to a moving rendition of "God Bless America" during a prayer meeting.

"While I want your vote, I need your prayers," the candidate told a congregation of approximately 500 people. "I hope that both Callista and I can be in your prayers because we will need them every day that we serve this country."

Other than attending Mass in the morning and holding a media avail tonight, Gingrich - who until now had maintained a busy public schedule every voting day - has nothing else on his calendar Saturday. The candidate says he has the "hope" of finishing second in the Nevada caucuses but is mindful that Ron Paul's organization may trump his chances.

"We're going all out to see if we can't be a good solid second here," an optimistic Gingrich told Greta Van Susteren Friday. "And then we're on to Colorado and Minnesota. Voting has already started in Arizona and in Ohio. We're going to be competing there."

The candidate called upon children in the congregation to join him on stage Friday night, the first time he had done so since South Carolina. It was a move that evoked memories of his earlier success, fitting given the Gingrich team's efforts to rejigger its operation after losing momentum in Florida.

On Fox News, Gingrich hinted at a potential path toward winning the nomination, saying he hoped to be "even with or slightly ahead" of Romney in total delegates by April 3.

"We're working our way toward Super Tuesday," Gingrich said to Van Susteren. "And we think we'll do very, very well on Super Tuesday, and then in Alabama and Mississippi the following week. And then we think we will clean up in Texas on the 3rd of April.'

A bullish Newt Gingrich ratcheted up his populist attacks on Mitt Romney Friday, abandoning his "Massachusetts Moderate" rhetoric for more forceful language that coupled the former governor with the current president. Romney, Gingrich said at a morning venue which featured a mechanical bull, is "Obama lite ... Obama is big food stamp, he's little food stamp." Criticizing Romney for his support of indexing federal minimum wage to inflation, Gingrich said such a policy would raise barriers for unemployment.

"Truth is I don't think he understands the free market," he said. "I think he understands a lot about finance. But finance isn't the free market and Wall Street isn't Main Street, and giant businesses aren't small businesses, and what matters in America is the ability of the local business person, man or woman, to create enough jobs, to hire enough people, to start people down the road."

At church Friday night, Gingrich took to the stage to once again attack Governor Romney for saying he isn't concerned about the "very poor" so long as there are "safety nets."

"My good friend, the governor from Massachusetts, said it was okay not to worry about the poor because after all they have a safety net," Gingrich said. "It's not a safety net, it's a spider web. It traps them in poverty. It keeps them at the bottom. It deprives them of independence. One of the reasons I'm running is because I want to replace the spider web with a trampoline that launches them into the middle class and gives them a future."

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2012/02/04/gingrich-while-i-want-your-vote-i-need-your-prayers/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 04, 2012, 10:40:37 PM
Who the heck is complaining about this?  Good grief.
 
School Removes “God” From Lee Greenwood Song
Apr 5, 2012
By Todd Starnes

Parents at a Massachusetts elementary school are furious after educators first removed the word ‘God’ from the popular Lee Greenwood song, “God Bless the U.S.A.” and then pulled the song all together from an upcoming concert.

Fox 25 in Boston is reporting that children at Stall Brook Elementary School in Bellingham were told to sing, “We love the U.S.A.” instead of “God Bless the U.S.A.”

After parents started complaining, school officials removed the song from the school assembly concert. The school’s principal released a statement to Fox 25 stating they hope to ”maintain the focus on the original objective of sharing students’ knowledge of the U.S. States, and because of logistics, will not include any songs.”

Greenwood released a statement to Fox News condemning the school’s actions.

“The most important word in the whole piece of music is the word God, which is also in the title ‘God Bless The USA,” Greenwood said. “Maybe the school should have asked the parents their thoughts before changing the lyrics to the song. They could have even asked the writer of the song, which I of course, would have said you can’t change the lyrics at all or any part of the song.”

Greenwood said the phrase “God Bless the USA” has a “very important meaning for those in the military and their families, as well as new citizens coming into our country.” He said it’s also played at every naturalization ceremony behind the national anthem.

“If the song is good enough to be played and performed in its original setting under those circumstances, it surely should be good enough for our children,” Greenwood said.

An online poll taken by the television station indicated more than 80 percent of viewers were outraged by removing God from the song.

“I don’t have a problem with the song if somebody else does I guess it’s there business,” resident Patrick Grudier said. “I mean It’s on our currency (God).”
But not everyone agreed – including parent Matthew Cote.

“I don’t think there’s anything wrong with changing the song,” he told the television. “It’s a public school. If you want to have the word God in the song, go to a private school.”

Reaction on Facebook has been overwhelmingly in favor of the traditional patriotic song.

“Here we go again, more war on Christianity,” wrote one Facebook user. “You can remove God all you want, but the good news — there is still a loving God and He lives.”

Another Facebook user called it sad and disgusting. “I’d like to say unbelievable — but it is so totally believable.”

LEE GREENWOOD’S STATEMENT TO TODD STARNES
“Maybe the school should have asked the parents their thoughts before changing the lyrics to the song.   They could have even asked the writer of the song, which I of course would have said you can’t change the lyrics at all or any part of the song.  The most important word in the whole piece of music is the word God, which is also in the title God Bless The USA.  We can’t take God out of the song, we can’t take God out of The Pledge of Allegiance, we can’t take God off of the American currency.  Let us also remember, the phrase God Bless the USA has a very important meaning for those in the military and their families, as well as new citizens coming to our Country.  The song is played at every naturalization ceremony behind The National Anthem.   If the song is good enough to played and performed in its original setting under those circumstances, it surely should be good enough for our children.” – Lee Greenwood

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-removes-god-from-lee-greenwood-song.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 03, 2012, 12:30:40 PM
Shocking.  Not.  "But while President George W. Bush hosted interfaith events at the White House to observe the day, Obama has not publicly observed the day and has no such events scheduled Thursday."


National Day of Prayer, A Largely Christian Event, Grows In Popularity As It Stirs Debate
Posted: 05/ 3/2012 11:12 am

Selena Lockwood of Byram, Miss., holds her hand up in a prayerful salute during the National Day of Prayer at the Capitol in Jackson, Miss., last year. Hundreds of Texans are expected to come to downtown Dallas Thursday for an eight-hour string of faith-based celebrations that will include Sikh drummers, Islamic prayers, Hindu singers, a Jewish cantor and Methodist and Baptist congregations.

It may sound like a standard interfaith event, another of the many that have become popular in increasingly diverse American cities, but the revelry at the the city's Thanks-Giving Square in observance of the National Day of Prayer is unique in how far it's departed from its Protestant roots.

The National Day of Prayer, which has been observed on the first Thursday in May for 24 years, is still a largely Christian event, in which millions of Americans from thousands of churches across the country will participate, bowing their heads to God in prayer on the day that traces its history to the nation's earliest years. There will be Bible read-a-thons in front of city halls, police officers will pay tribute to the nation's first-responders at churches, and the devout will descend upon courthouse steps across American cities to grace the buildings with prayer.

But the event, designated via presidential proclamation, has increasingly faced accusations of encouraging an uncomfortable mingling of church and state and being too narrowly focused in practice on Christianity.

On one side, secular humanists and atheists have responded by promoting their own event, Thursday's National Day of Reason. Now in its ninth year, the nonreligious celebration has expanded to more than a dozen cities, where it's observed with blood drives, training on pro-secular policy lobbying and voter registration drives, as well as social events.

On the other hand, believers such as those in Dallas have tried to change the day's legacy by broadening its appeal. The Thanks-Giving Foundation, which typically observes the National Day of Prayer with an interfaith breakfast or luncheon, has made this year's event into a day-long festival, where more than half the events are purposefully devoted to non-Christians.

"We believe in the idea that gratitude is something that all faith traditions and all cultures value," said Chris Slaughter, a Christian Scientist who is president of the Thanks-Giving Foundation, which will be celebrating its 30th National Day of Prayer. "It can be used as a beginning point of conversation to learn about each other to gain respect and understanding."


That's a stark contrast to the theme of the Colorado Springs-based National Day of Prayer Task Force, one of the largest prayer event organizations. The group, which is chaired by Shirley Dobson, wife of evangelical group Focus on the Family's founder James Dobson, aims to "preserve America's Christian heritage," according a statement on its website.

A representative from the National Day of Prayer Task Force did not reply to a request for comment, but the website includes listings for thousands of events across the nation on Thursday. Representatives for the organization have said in interviews that interest in hosting Christian prayer events has increased by 35 percent this year.

John Inazu, a law professor who specializes in the First Amendment at Washington University in St. Louis, said the increasing popularity of Christian and interfaith National Day of Prayer events and the National Day of Reason reflects a growing conflict over the role of religion in public life.

Inazu pointed out that it's been 50 years since organized prayer in public schools was declared unconstitutional in Engel v. Vitale, a landmark Supreme Court case, but that laws that allow for voluntary prayer or moments of silence in schools and initiatives to have prayers in government buildings and in public spaces have gotten more popular.



"Some religious believers will likely use the Day of Prayer to call attention to what they view as a regrettable and consequential court decision," Inazu said. "But there's an important distinction between official school or government prayer or a public school or public space that allows prayer. The key is that it's voluntary and the guidance is made as non-sectarian and as general as possible."

The National Day of Prayer has met few legal challenges since it was made official in 1952 by President Harry Truman, who left it to subsequent presidents to decide its date each year. In 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed a proclamation that set its observation to the first Thursday in May.

Two years ago, a federal judge in Wisconsin ruled that the government-sponsored National Day of Prayer violated the First Amendment, which prohibits the government from establishing religion. After an appeal from President Barack Obama's administration, a higher court reversed the decision last year and ruled that the government proclamation did not require anyone's participation.

As is customary, Obama issued a proclamation this week on the Day of Prayer in which he asked "all citizens of our Nation, as their own faith directs them, to join me in giving thanks for the many blessings we enjoy" and called for "individuals of all faiths to pray for guidance, grace, and protection for our great Nation."

But while President George W. Bush hosted interfaith events at the White House to observe the day, Obama has not publicly observed the day and has no such events scheduled Thursday.

Shin Inouye, a White House spokesman, said in an email that Obama "has been honored to celebrate prayer and faith through events like his recent Easter Prayer Breakfast, an annual event for Christian leaders begun in the Obama Administration, and speaking at the National Prayer Breakfast ... As a devoted Christian, the President prays daily and deeply appreciates the important role that prayer plays in the lives of millions of Americans."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/03/national-day-of-prayer_n_1473966.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: garebear on May 30, 2012, 03:32:58 AM
I cant believe these ppl dont have anything better to do with their free time.
They're actually doing something.

You're wining on a message board.








And only to say that the other people doing something have nothing to do with their time.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on May 30, 2012, 03:50:03 PM
They're actually doing something.

You're wining on a message board.

And only to say that the other people doing something have nothing to do with their time.
YAYYYYY!!!! I got trolled!!!!

im posting on a message board b/c I dont find this topic so compelling that I need to go to such idiotic heights as your friends.

I have plenty of things to take my time work, school, gym, booze etc...I would rather spend my time doing more constructive things.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 24, 2012, 05:37:40 PM
Everyone has the right to practice any religion they choose, or not religion or at all, but we shouldn't be trying to appease a handful of paranoid anti-religious extremists. 

Lawmakers claim Air Force culture becoming 'hostile towards religion'
Published June 23, 2012
FoxNews.com

Dozens of House lawmakers accused the U.S. Air Force this week of being "hostile towards religion," citing a string of recent incidents they claim show the military is taking separation of church and state too far.

"Censorship is not required for compliance with the Constitution," they wrote in a letter to Defense Secretary Leon Panetta.

The letter from 66 Republican members of Congress referenced a series of cases where they claim the Air Force "succumbed" to demands from outside groups.

Among the incidents:

A decision to remove a Latin reference to "God" from a logo/motto for the Rapid Capabilities Office

A decision to stop requiring staff to check for Bibles in Air Force Inn rooms

The removal of a document from a distance-learning course for Squadron Officer School that suggested chapel attendance is a sign of strong leadership

The suspension of an ethics course because the material included Bible passages

"Mr. Secretary, the combination of events mentioned above raises concerns that the Air Force is developing a culture that is hostile towards religion," the lawmakers wrote. They urged Panetta to investigate all the incidents and issue "clear Department of Defense policy guidance."

The letter was drafted by Reps. Diane Black, R-Tenn.; Randy Forbes, R-Va.; and Todd Akin, R-Mo.

'Censorship is not required for compliance with the Constitution'

- GOP lawmakers in letter to Defense Secretary Leon Panetta

The incidents were not all as clear-cut as the lawmakers made them sound.

In the case of the Squadron Officer School course, the training document in question contained the following paragraph: "If you attend chapel regularly, both officers and Airmen are likely to follow this example. If you are morally lax in your personal life, a general moral indifference within the command can be expected."

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation complained to the Air Force in March that the line "creates the inescapable impression that regular church attendance is a requirement for commissioned Air Force officers in order to demonstrate positive morals to subordinates." The group said the document violates the constitutional prohibition on religious tests for U.S. office holders.

The Air Force subsequently scrapped the document.

In the case of the Rapid Capabilities Office, the reference to God was removed following a complaint from an atheist group. The original logo, according to Fox News Radio, said in Latin: "Doing God's Work with Other People's Money."
It was changed to say, "Doing Miracles with Other People's Money."

In the case of the Air Force Inn rooms, the Air Force moved to nix a question from its checklist asking whether a Bible was provided, according to the Air Force Times, though it did not order Bibles to be removed.

The Republican lawmakers, though, said the change in attitude can all be traced back to a September 2011 memo from Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz that said chaplains, "not commanders," are expected to notify airmen of the Chaplain Corps programs.

The lawmakers said this suggested "that the mere mention of these programs is impermissible." All the subsequent incidents, they said, "go beyond the requirements of the Constitution."

"The changes lend credence to the notion that the Air Force will remove any reference to God or faith that an outside organization brings to its attention," they wrote.

The Air Force said in a statement responding to the letter that airmen are "free to exercise their constitutional right to practice their religion -- in a manner that is respectful of other individuals' rights to follow their own belief systems."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/23/lawmakers-claim-air-force-culture-becoming-hostile-towards-religion/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Mr. Magoo on June 24, 2012, 06:12:03 PM
Everyone has the right to practice any religion they choose, or not religion or at all, but we shouldn't be trying to appease a handful of paranoid anti-religious extremists. 


Did you mean a "right to practice" or did you really mean a "right to believe"? I think many would agree to the second, but the first can be troublesome when some religions call on believers to act out against those who don't believe. Is it a right for a muslim to attack a christian for example, if their religion calls for that action?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 24, 2012, 06:14:44 PM
Did you mean a "right to practice" or did you really mean a "right to believe"? I think many would agree to the second, but the first can be troublesome when some religions call on believers to act out against those who don't believe. Is it a right for a muslim to attack a christian for example, if their religion calls for that action?

I meant "practice," "believe," "not believe," etc.  Not really much of a difference in this context. 

No, it's not right for a Muslim to attack a Christian, and that is not allowed in our country.  Not sure what that has to do with the catering to paranoid anti-religious extremists in the article I posted? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Mr. Magoo on June 24, 2012, 06:19:26 PM
I meant "practice," "believe," "not believe," etc.  Not really much of a difference in this context. 

No, it's not right for a Muslim to attack a Christian, and that is not allowed in our country.  Not sure what that has to do with the catering to paranoid anti-religious extremists in the article I posted? 

Theres a difference between freedom to act and freedom to believe regarding obligations of religion versus obligation of society, several supreme court decisions have addressed it.

And I didnt asked if it was "right" for a muslim to attack a christian. I asked if it was A right. You said everyone has a right to practice any religion. I was seeing how consistent you was with that, or if you really meant that everyone has a right to believe any religion.

And I was speaking more generally regarding your comments about the article, not the article itself. My question was going beyond the article, directly at your comment.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 24, 2012, 06:23:40 PM
Theres a difference between freedom to act and freedom to believe regarding obligations of religion versus obligation of society, several supreme court decisions have addressed it.

And I didnt asked if it was "right" for a muslim to attack a christian. I asked if it was A right. You said everyone has a right to practice any religion. I was seeing how consistent you was with that, or if you really meant that everyone has a right to believe any religion.

And I was speaking more generally regarding your comments about the article, not the article itself. My question was going beyond the article, directly at your comment.

Of course there is a difference between a belief and an action.  Just not in the context of the article and my comments. 

Everyone has the right to practice any religion, or no religion, but no right is absolute, including the right to life.  They can all be taken away. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 07, 2012, 09:10:01 AM
Paranoid anti-religious extremists hard at work.

Mayor defends war memorial after group calls for removal of cross
Published August 04, 2012
FoxNews.com

(http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/U.S./660/371/wooncross.jpg)
A national atheist organization is seeking to remove this cross from a 91-year-old war memorial in Woonsocket, R.I., claiming it violates separation of church and state.

A mayor has come to the defense of a war memorial that features religious symbols and prayers after a national group called for the cross to be removed.

“The Firefighter’s Prayer” is a 91-year-old memorial in a Rhode Island city that honors hometown soldiers who paid the ultimate sacrifice defending their country during World War I and II, MyFoxBoston.com reports.
It has stood in the parking lot of the Woonsocket fire station for decades with no complaints, until earlier this year when the Freedom from Religion Foundation called for it to be stripped of the cross, claiming it violates the First Amendment’s freedom of religion clause.

The group also wants the Woonsocket Fire Department to remove “The Firefighter’s Prayer” and a picture of an angel from its website.

“We ask that you immediately remove the cross from the Fire Station parking lot and remove the prayer and angel from the Woonsocket Fire Department website,” the foundation’s senior staff attorney, Rebecca Market, wrote in a letter to Woonsocket officials earlier this year.

But at an event Friday, Mayor Leo Fontaine reaffirmed earlier statements that the group’s request will not be met without a fight. “We will defend this monument no matter what,” he told MyFoxBoston.com. Fontaine said the monument is a symbol of the community, and the city is prepared to fight to keep the monument where it stands.

While the city is currently facing the possibility of bankruptcy, residents have rallied to raise $18,500 for a defense fund should the Freedom from Religion Foundation decide to file a lawsuit.
Fontaine has said that the city will not remove the cross, “under any circumstances.”

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/04/mayor-defends-war-memorial-after-group-calls-for-removal-cross/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on August 07, 2012, 09:46:38 AM
BAPTIST CHURCH REFUSES TO ALLOW A BLACK COUPLE TO MARRY AND IS THEN SHAMED INTO AN APOLOGY WHEN THEIR BIGOTRY IS MADE PUBLIC


By Jeffrey Elizabeth Copeland, CNN

(CNN)–After barring a black couple from marrying in its Mississippi facility in late July, the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs released a statement Sunday apologizing for its actions.

“We, the church, realize that the Hendersons and Wilsons should never have been asked to relocate their wedding. This wrong decision resulted in hurt and sadness for everyone. Both the pastor and those involved in the wedding location being changed have expressed their regrets and sorrow for their actions,” the church said.

Te’Andrea and Charles Wilson planned for months to marry at the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs but were asked at the last minute to move.

Their pastor, Stan Weatherford, made the request on behalf of some congregants who didn't want to see the couple married there, according to CNN affiliate WLBT. He performed the ceremony at a nearby church.

Sunday’s statement follows a string of apologies from First Baptist and its congregation for turning away the young couple.

“As a church, we express our apology to Te’Andrea and Charles Wilson for the hurt that was brought to them in the hours preceding their wedding and beyond. We are seeking forgiveness and reconciliation with our Lord Jesus Christ, Te’Andrea and Charles, family and friends of the Hendersons and Wilsons, our church family, and our community for the actions and attitudes that have recently occurred,” the statement continued.

Despite the church’s recent statements, the Wilsons aren’t convinced of the congregations' sincerity, they said, calling the recent release “an insult” and “misleading to the public.”

“The pastor has not spoken to us since a couple days after the incident. We have not heard from the pastor or any church official since the incident,” Charles Wilson said Sunday.

Dr. Richard Land, head of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, the public policy arm for the Southern Baptist Convention, called the church’s apology responsible and necessary.

“It certainly sounds to me as if God has been working on the hearts of the church members of Crystal Springs,” Land said. “And, they have seen and felt the error of their ways and they are expressing that in this letter. They’re apologizing and seeking to correct the damage that’s been done to the reputation of Christ and his church.”

Jonathan Thompson, the African-American community relations director for the city of Crystal Springs, was one of many community members to organize a unity rally after the incident, aiming to help reunite church members.

"I think this is an opportunity to really get intentional about reconciling," he said, adding that he prayed God would forgive all of them for their sins and that they would be able to find reconciliation.

However, Charles Wilson said, “at the rally, the pastor avoided us. He walked the other way when he saw us walking toward him. It would have been nice to talk to us before issuing a statement."

A spokesman who agreed to be identified only as a "church member" said that the church had attempted to reach out to the couple and that calls were not returned.

The Wilsons had attended the church but were not official members. They would have been the first African-American couple to marry in First Baptist Church’s 150-year history, church officials said.

"This had never been done before here, so it was setting a new precedent, and there are those who reacted to that because of that," Weatherford told CNN affiliate WLBT in July.

Many church members were unaware of the decision to refuse to marry the couple and reacted with surprise to the news.

The incident "didn't represent all the people of the church," said Thompson, who visited the church after the incident.

Sunday's statement reaffirmed the church's desire for the inclusion of all people. "We the membership of First Baptist Church Crystal Springs hold the position that we should be open to all people. Our desire is to restore the church to be a spiritual lighthouse in doing the Lord’s will in Crystal Springs and in Mississippi."

"I blame the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs. I blame those members who knew and call themselves Christians and didn't stand up," Charles Wilson told WLBT.

“It’s up to them to decide whether to forgive or not. I hope they will,” Land said. “We recognized that our church, just like any other church, is made up of sinful- redeemed but flawed- saints who intentionally, at times, choose not to follow the Lord’s will. Alas, this is a truth of human nature.”

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/06/church-that-refused-to-marry-black-couple-releases-apology/  
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tonymctones on August 07, 2012, 04:43:04 PM
BAPTIST CHURCH REFUSES TO ALLOW A BLACK COUPLE TO MARRY AND IS THEN SHAMED INTO AN APOLOGY WHEN THEIR BIGOTRY IS MADE PUBLIC


By Jeffrey Elizabeth Copeland, CNN

(CNN)–After barring a black couple from marrying in its Mississippi facility in late July, the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs released a statement Sunday apologizing for its actions.

“We, the church, realize that the Hendersons and Wilsons should never have been asked to relocate their wedding. This wrong decision resulted in hurt and sadness for everyone. Both the pastor and those involved in the wedding location being changed have expressed their regrets and sorrow for their actions,” the church said.

Te’Andrea and Charles Wilson planned for months to marry at the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs but were asked at the last minute to move.

Their pastor, Stan Weatherford, made the request on behalf of some congregants who didn't want to see the couple married there, according to CNN affiliate WLBT. He performed the ceremony at a nearby church.

Sunday’s statement follows a string of apologies from First Baptist and its congregation for turning away the young couple.

“As a church, we express our apology to Te’Andrea and Charles Wilson for the hurt that was brought to them in the hours preceding their wedding and beyond. We are seeking forgiveness and reconciliation with our Lord Jesus Christ, Te’Andrea and Charles, family and friends of the Hendersons and Wilsons, our church family, and our community for the actions and attitudes that have recently occurred,” the statement continued.

Despite the church’s recent statements, the Wilsons aren’t convinced of the congregations' sincerity, they said, calling the recent release “an insult” and “misleading to the public.”

“The pastor has not spoken to us since a couple days after the incident. We have not heard from the pastor or any church official since the incident,” Charles Wilson said Sunday.

Dr. Richard Land, head of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, the public policy arm for the Southern Baptist Convention, called the church’s apology responsible and necessary.

“It certainly sounds to me as if God has been working on the hearts of the church members of Crystal Springs,” Land said. “And, they have seen and felt the error of their ways and they are expressing that in this letter. They’re apologizing and seeking to correct the damage that’s been done to the reputation of Christ and his church.”

Jonathan Thompson, the African-American community relations director for the city of Crystal Springs, was one of many community members to organize a unity rally after the incident, aiming to help reunite church members.

"I think this is an opportunity to really get intentional about reconciling," he said, adding that he prayed God would forgive all of them for their sins and that they would be able to find reconciliation.

However, Charles Wilson said, “at the rally, the pastor avoided us. He walked the other way when he saw us walking toward him. It would have been nice to talk to us before issuing a statement."

A spokesman who agreed to be identified only as a "church member" said that the church had attempted to reach out to the couple and that calls were not returned.

The Wilsons had attended the church but were not official members. They would have been the first African-American couple to marry in First Baptist Church’s 150-year history, church officials said.

"This had never been done before here, so it was setting a new precedent, and there are those who reacted to that because of that," Weatherford told CNN affiliate WLBT in July.

Many church members were unaware of the decision to refuse to marry the couple and reacted with surprise to the news.

The incident "didn't represent all the people of the church," said Thompson, who visited the church after the incident.

Sunday's statement reaffirmed the church's desire for the inclusion of all people. "We the membership of First Baptist Church Crystal Springs hold the position that we should be open to all people. Our desire is to restore the church to be a spiritual lighthouse in doing the Lord’s will in Crystal Springs and in Mississippi."

"I blame the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs. I blame those members who knew and call themselves Christians and didn't stand up," Charles Wilson told WLBT.

“It’s up to them to decide whether to forgive or not. I hope they will,” Land said. “We recognized that our church, just like any other church, is made up of sinful- redeemed but flawed- saints who intentionally, at times, choose not to follow the Lord’s will. Alas, this is a truth of human nature.”

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/06/church-that-refused-to-marry-black-couple-releases-apology/ 
this should be fought just like the idiotic paranoid anti religious stuff should be fought, wouldnt you agree straw?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on August 08, 2012, 08:09:13 AM
this should be fought just like the idiotic paranoid anti religious stuff should be fought, wouldnt you agree straw?

no way to answer such a generalized question

this example was a church refusing to allow a black couple to marry solely based on their race.    That's just plain old fashioned racism and of course everyone should object to that (unless of course they are a racist)

this thread includes many examples of things that are not paranoid/anti-religious that fundies would like to characterize that way and I would not agree that they are equivalent with the experience of this couple in any way, shape or form
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 14, 2012, 12:56:23 PM
 ::)

School district dismisses atheist group's threat to sue over 'God' songs
By Maegan Vazquez
Published August 14, 2012
FoxNews.com

A national atheist group is demanding that a New York public school district remove songs from the curriculum of a music class because they feature the words "god" and "lord" in the lyrics, but the educators aren't backing down.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation has sent letters to the Shenendehowa Central Schools, in Clifton Park, N.Y., threatening legal action if the songs aren't removed from Okte Elementary School's curriculum. The possibly-religious songs include "Thank You for the World So Sweet," which says "Thank you God for everything," "Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep," which says "I pray the Lord my soul to keep," "Michael Row your Boat Ashore" and "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands."


"They're going after little children over an innocent song."
- Bill Donohue, president of Catholic League

"This is not minor. It's predatory to conduct this toward a young, captive audience who would be truant if they didn't attend public school," Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, told FoxNews.com.

The organization sent a letter to Superintendent Oliver Robinson about the songs in June on behalf of a parent who complained. While the two groups communicated over the summer break, a third letter from the FRFF staff attorney arrived on Aug. 6, which warned of legal action.

School officials are standing firm, claiming the songs the kids are being taught are simply educational:

"None of the songs was taught, or used, as prayer. Thus, the case you cite dealing with school prayer is an inapposite...[the songs] were used appropriately to teach musical concepts," Kathryn McCary, the school district's attorney, said in letter mailed to the foundation. 

Gaylor dismissed the argument, saying the songs don't have to be part of a prayer to violate the separation of church and state clause of the First Amendment.

"It doesn't matter that the devotional wasn't toward a specific religion. We've already been through this with another case that features prayer songs," she said.

Some religious organizations disagree.

"This would never stand a chance with the Supreme Court. They [FFRF] wants to censor the expressions of Christianity -- and they only go after the Christians, not the Jews or the Muslims. Now they're going after little children over an innocent song," Bill Donohue, president of Catholic League, told FoxNews.com. "I applaud the school district -- they've made a very cogent argument. If this goes to court, we need to teach them (FFRF) a lesson."

It looks like the complaint just might go through the rounds of the justice system.

"We have made it clear that we have a parent that is willing to take formal legal action in court," Gaylor said.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/14/atheists-demand-schools-to-remove-songs-mentioning-god/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 20, 2012, 12:33:31 PM
Crybabies.

University of Tennessee Refuses to Ban Pre-Game Prayers
Posted in Top Stories
Sep 19, 2012
By Todd Starnes

It’s football time in Tennessee where longtime gridiron traditions are cherished – from Rocky Top to the Pride of the Southland Marching Band. At the start of every game inside the colossal Neyland Stadium, thousands of the football faithful rise to their feet, remove their hats and pause for the pre-game prayer.

But in recent days the University of Tennessee Knoxville’s pre-game prayer has come under attack. The Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation sent a cease and desist letter to the public university calling for them to abandon the long-time tradition.

“This is a public university, not a Christian club,” wrote Annie Gaylor, co-president of the FFRF in a letter to the chancellor. “When you’re not religious or are of another faith and you get prayed at during events, it’s really very grating.”

“It’s a sock in the gut for you to go for a sporting event and then be told to conform to someone else’s religion,” she said in a story published by the Knoxville News Sentinel.

Chancellor Jimmy Cheek responded by saying the pre-game prayers are protected by the U.S. Constitution and will not be silenced on his campus.

“The university will continue to allow prayers before university events,” he wrote in a letter obtained by Fox News.

Cheek cited a court ruling from the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals that specifically held that “nonsectarian prayer at public university events does not violate the First Amendment.”

And furthermore, Cheek said prayers will also be welcomed at other university events – outside the confines of the football stadium.

The Knoxville News Sentinel reported that the FFRF sent their cease and desist letter on behalf of UT alumni and students who “felt disenfranchised by the prayers.”

“You roll your eyes and say why is this going on at a government-subsidized event?” retired ecologist and FFRF member Bob Craig told the newspaper. “I also see it at all the high school games where they have prayers before games and after games. It’s really out of place. It’s hurting all those people that don’t have that belief and ostracizing them.”

The university’s decision brought praise from Kevin Brooks, a Republican state representative.

“I was at the game on Saturday and actually commented on how thankful I was that we began the game in prayer and how much I enjoyed the halftime musical performance of Amazing Grace,” he told Fox News.

Brooks said it was alarming that an outside organization from Wisconsin would involve itself in the affairs of another state. There is no separation of church and state in the Constitution, he noted.

“I am so thankful that Tennesseans are going to stand up and say this is the Volunteer State and voluntarily we’re going to keep praying,” Brooks said.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/university-of-tennessee-refuses-to-ban-pre-game-prayers.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on September 20, 2012, 02:51:02 PM
fundie moron thinks the Federal Government should "investigate" cartoons

http://theclicker.today.com/_news/2012/09/18/13941805-fox-news-host-wants-south-park-investigated-for-blasphemy?lite

Fox News host wants 'South Park' investigated for blasphemy
By Gael Fashingbauer Cooper , TODAY

In the wake of news reports about the anti-Islam film "Innocence of Muslims," a Fox News host has decided that a bigger and more professionally made production, "South Park," should come under fire.


Todd Starnes, host of "FOX News & Commentary" and author of "Dispatches from Bitter America," spoke on a panel about "Religious Hostility in America" at the Values Voter Summit in Washington this past weekend, and Cartman and friends were on his mind.

"We have seen the administration come out and say, 'We condemn anyone who denigrates religious faith.' And they come out in regards to this anti-Muslim film," Starnes said. "Well, that's well and good, but my question is: When has the administration condemned the anti-Christian films that are coming out of Hollywood? Where are the federal investigations into shows like 'South Park,' which has denigrated all faiths? Where is the outrage when people of the Christian faith are subjected to this humiliation that is coming out of Hollywood?"

"South Park" has famously taken on religions of all kinds. Scientology is parodied in an episode where Stan is thought to be the reincarnation of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and Scientologist Tom Cruise wouldn't come out of Stan's closet. Mormonism is mocked in an episode where Stan is impressed by a Mormon family's behavior, if not convinced of their beliefs. Cartman constantly makes fun of Kyle, the lone Jew among the four main characters. Catholicism, especially the child-molestation scandals involving priests, has also been targeted by the show.


 "South Park" also portrayed Muhammad. In its fifth season, the show featured the "Super Best Friends," a superhero group led by Jesus and consisting of Muhammad, Buddha, Moses, Joseph Smith, Krishna, Laozi and an Aquaman parody called Sea Man. The episode first aired on July 4, 2001, before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks of that year, and there was little fuss when Muhammad was portrayed. But when the show tried to show a Muhammad character in 2010, Comedy Central altered the episode.

In June, a Muslim man pled guilty to threatening the "South Park" creators over the 2010 episode and was sentenced to 11 1/2 years in prison
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Mr. Magoo on September 20, 2012, 04:42:36 PM
Crybabies.

Isn't this whole thread you crying over people who cry too much?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on September 20, 2012, 05:03:19 PM
Isn't this whole thread you crying over people who cry too much?

yep and he loves to bump it whenever he gets the urge to feel victimized and needs a good cry

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 20, 2012, 06:49:00 PM
Isn't this whole thread you crying over people who cry too much?

Nope.  It's about prayer and religion in public life.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: garebear on September 29, 2012, 07:51:32 AM
Nope.  It's about prayer and religion in public life.   :)
.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Shockwave on September 29, 2012, 07:54:01 AM
fundie moron thinks the Federal Government should "investigate" cartoons

http://theclicker.today.com/_news/2012/09/18/13941805-fox-news-host-wants-south-park-investigated-for-blasphemy?lite

Fox News host wants 'South Park' investigated for blasphemy
By Gael Fashingbauer Cooper , TODAY

In the wake of news reports about the anti-Islam film "Innocence of Muslims," a Fox News host has decided that a bigger and more professionally made production, "South Park," should come under fire.


Todd Starnes, host of "FOX News & Commentary" and author of "Dispatches from Bitter America," spoke on a panel about "Religious Hostility in America" at the Values Voter Summit in Washington this past weekend, and Cartman and friends were on his mind.

"We have seen the administration come out and say, 'We condemn anyone who denigrates religious faith.' And they come out in regards to this anti-Muslim film," Starnes said. "Well, that's well and good, but my question is: When has the administration condemned the anti-Christian films that are coming out of Hollywood? Where are the federal investigations into shows like 'South Park,' which has denigrated all faiths? Where is the outrage when people of the Christian faith are subjected to this humiliation that is coming out of Hollywood?"

"South Park" has famously taken on religions of all kinds. Scientology is parodied in an episode where Stan is thought to be the reincarnation of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and Scientologist Tom Cruise wouldn't come out of Stan's closet. Mormonism is mocked in an episode where Stan is impressed by a Mormon family's behavior, if not convinced of their beliefs. Cartman constantly makes fun of Kyle, the lone Jew among the four main characters. Catholicism, especially the child-molestation scandals involving priests, has also been targeted by the show.


 "South Park" also portrayed Muhammad. In its fifth season, the show featured the "Super Best Friends," a superhero group led by Jesus and consisting of Muhammad, Buddha, Moses, Joseph Smith, Krishna, Laozi and an Aquaman parody called Sea Man. The episode first aired on July 4, 2001, before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks of that year, and there was little fuss when Muhammad was portrayed. But when the show tried to show a Muhammad character in 2010, Comedy Central altered the episode.

In June, a Muslim man pled guilty to threatening the "South Park" creators over the 2010 episode and was sentenced to 11 1/2 years in prison

Douches, all of them. Investigation for blasphemy, what bitches.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: garebear on September 29, 2012, 08:12:43 AM
fundie moron thinks the Federal Government should "investigate" cartoons

http://theclicker.today.com/_news/2012/09/18/13941805-fox-news-host-wants-south-park-investigated-for-blasphemy?lite

Fox News host wants 'South Park' investigated for blasphemy
By Gael Fashingbauer Cooper , TODAY

In the wake of news reports about the anti-Islam film "Innocence of Muslims," a Fox News host has decided that a bigger and more professionally made production, "South Park," should come under fire.


Todd Starnes, host of "FOX News & Commentary" and author of "Dispatches from Bitter America," spoke on a panel about "Religious Hostility in America" at the Values Voter Summit in Washington this past weekend, and Cartman and friends were on his mind.

"We have seen the administration come out and say, 'We condemn anyone who denigrates religious faith.' And they come out in regards to this anti-Muslim film," Starnes said. "Well, that's well and good, but my question is: When has the administration condemned the anti-Christian films that are coming out of Hollywood? Where are the federal investigations into shows like 'South Park,' which has denigrated all faiths? Where is the outrage when people of the Christian faith are subjected to this humiliation that is coming out of Hollywood?"

"South Park" has famously taken on religions of all kinds. Scientology is parodied in an episode where Stan is thought to be the reincarnation of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and Scientologist Tom Cruise wouldn't come out of Stan's closet. Mormonism is mocked in an episode where Stan is impressed by a Mormon family's behavior, if not convinced of their beliefs. Cartman constantly makes fun of Kyle, the lone Jew among the four main characters. Catholicism, especially the child-molestation scandals involving priests, has also been targeted by the show.


 "South Park" also portrayed Muhammad. In its fifth season, the show featured the "Super Best Friends," a superhero group led by Jesus and consisting of Muhammad, Buddha, Moses, Joseph Smith, Krishna, Laozi and an Aquaman parody called Sea Man. The episode first aired on July 4, 2001, before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks of that year, and there was little fuss when Muhammad was portrayed. But when the show tried to show a Muhammad character in 2010, Comedy Central altered the episode.

In June, a Muslim man pled guilty to threatening the "South Park" creators over the 2010 episode and was sentenced to 11 1/2 years in prison

This is literally too ridiculous for me to be upset about.

I'm speechless.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Shockwave on September 29, 2012, 08:13:30 AM
This is literally too ridiculous for me to be upset about.

I'm speechless.


Seriously.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 26, 2012, 05:00:25 PM
Charlie Brown?  Really?? 

Secularists: ‘Merry Christmas Charlie Brown’ Violates Constitution
Nov 26, 2012
By Todd Starnes

An Arkansas secular group is defending its opposition to public school students being allowed attend a performance of “Merry Christmas Charlie Brown” while rejecting claims they had declared a ‘war on Christmas.’

“Those who stand up for the rights of children to be free from coercion aren’t making war either on religion or Christmas,” said LeeWood Thomas, spokesperson for the Arkansas Society of Freethinkers. “This is a case of a church forming an alliance with local government to violate religious freedom.”

Students at Terry Elementary School in Little Rock had been invited to attend an upcoming performance of “Merry Christmas Charlie Brown” at Agape Church. The theatrical production is adapted from the popular animated television classic, “A Charlie Brown Christmas.”

The Little Rock School District said students were not required to attend the performance and as far as the district is concerned – there is no controversy.

“The teachers wanted to provide an opportunity for cultural enrichment for students through a holiday production and are supported by the principal,” spokesperson Pamela Smith told Fox News. “Because it will be held at a church, as some public events often are, a letter was sent home with students so parents who took exception and wished to have their children remain at school could do so.”

The Arkansas Society of Freethinkers said they were speaking out on behalf of a parent whose child attends the school. They said the parent felt forced to “choose between maintaining their family religious beliefs versus their child being singled out and possibly ostracized or bullied.”

“Merely allowing a child to opt out of a school-sponsored religious activity during the winter holidays is no solution,” Anne Orsi, vice president of the group said in a statement. “Such a situation exposes the children of minority faiths and outlooks to majority pressure and victimization. Thus the religious rights of children are being violated along with their right to privacy.”

The society said public schools should not take students to churches to see plays with religious content.

“This isn’t about Charlie Brown or Christmas,” Orsi said in her statement. “It’s about the separation of church and state. We must be sensitive to that and never allow public schools to promote one brand of religion over any other.”

But attorneys with the Alliance Defending Freedom said the secular group is way off base.

“An overwhelming majority of Americans agree that it’s okay to celebrate Christmas in schools and in the public square,” attorney Matt Sharp said.

The ADF sent a letter to the Little Rock School District offering their legal services should anyone sue over the performance.

“Schools should not have to think twice about whether they can allow students to watch a classic Christmas production simply because a Bible verse is mentioned in it,” Sharp wrote in his letter. “Are atheist groups going to start demanding that students be blocked from attending other classic productions just because they contain religious references?”

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/secularists-merry-christmas-charlie-brown-violates-constitution.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: littledumbells on November 26, 2012, 05:19:56 PM
I was kidding about the ACLU.

I agree the government shouldn't be proselytizing. 

It's not just that this is a free country, it's that faith is really interwoven throughout our society, both in the public and private sectors.  It was fascinating to see this at play yesterday. 

  Its either that or folks just go with the flow
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 30, 2012, 01:04:09 PM
How insecure do you have to be to complain about a little kid saying the word "God"? 

'God' removed from student's poem
Landdis Hollifield
Posted: Tuesday, November 20, 2012

A decision to remove the word “God” from a school program is causing a world of controversy for McDowell County Schools.

But a First Amendment expert said school officials made the right decision.

During Monday’s Board of Education meeting, two members of the public stepped forward to talk to board members about a First Amendment issue at West Marion Elementary.

McDowell County Schools employee Chris Greene and McDowell County resident Esther Dollarhyde each took a turn talking about West Marion Elementary’s Veterans Day program during the public comment portion of the meeting.

“On Nov. 8, 2012 West Marion held their annual Veterans Day program in the midst of a lot of drama,” Greene said. “We had one parent concerned with the use of the word God in this program. This parent did not want the word God mentioned anywhere in the program. When the demand from this person was heard, the rights of another stopped. It did so by hushing the voice of a six-year-old girl.”

Greene said the student had written a special poem for the program about her grandfathers, both of whom had served in the armed forces during the Vietnam War.

In it, she wrote, “he prayed to God for peace, he prayed to God for strength,” which Greene stated she was told she could not read during the school assembly.

“She was told that she was not allowed to say the word God during this program” stated Greene. “Being a six year old, and not knowing her rights, she did what she was told.”

Greene said the girl wasn’t trying to force people to pray, but was just telling them what her grandfather had done.

“Let me add here that those prayers worked, because he went on to serve two tours in Vietnam,” Greene said. “My question is this, when do the rights of one outweigh the rights of another? I believe that this little girl’s rights were violated and that those who worked so hard to prepare this program should receive an apology.”

Esther Dollarhyde agreed.

“We need to keep in mind what was our country founded on,” stated Dollarhyde. “It was founded on God and Jesus Christ, and our veterans went out and fought for us so we would have a free country, but if we aren’t allowed to honor them the way that the children want to then America is getting lost.”

When contacted after the presentations, School Board member Lynn Greene, who is also Chris Greene’s father, said school officials had overstepped their authority.

“My understanding on the law is a teacher cannot promote any certain religion, but when it comes to students voicing their opinion or expressing themselves in a poem we pretty much have to give some leeway,” Greene said. “To me this whole thing is a violation of that child’s rights. Nobody forced her to write the poem, that was her part of the program. She was asked to write a poem about veterans and she did. My personal opinion is that her rights were violated.”

School Board member Terry Frank said he could not comment until he knew more about the situation.

When asked why the decision was made to remove the word God, Superintendent Gerri Martin said it came about after a serious discussion with West Marion’s Principal Desarae Kirkpatrick and Vice Principal Nakia Carson.

“The discussion (about the poem) occurred between myself, the principal and the assistant principal at West Marion,” stated Martin. “We wanted to make sure we were upholding the school district’s responsibility of separation of church and state from the Establishment Clause.”

When asked why other schools were allowed to hold programs containing poems and student writings with the word God in them, Martin said that was because West Marion was the only one who had asked for consultation about their program.

Kirkpatrick, like Martin, said the decision was based on a public school’s necessity to not infringe upon other students’ freedom of religion.

“After consulting with the Superintendent, Dr. Martin, we jointly decided that we must err on the side of caution to prevent from crossing the line on the Establishment Clause of the Constitution,” stated Kirkpatrick. “As a principal of a public school, I must put aside my personal religious beliefs and follow the law, which upholds that we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but that we, as public schools, cannot endorse one single religion over another.”

The McDowell News contacted the First Amendment Center in Washington, D.C., which serves as a forum for the study and exploration of free-expression issues, including freedom of speech, of the press and of religion, and the rights to assemble and to petition the government.

After studying the situation, President and Chief Executive Officer Ken Paulson stated the school did in fact have the right to remove the word God from the child’s poem.

“Courts have consistently held up the rights for students to express themselves unless their speech is disruptive to the school,” stated Paulson. “When the little girl wrote the poem and included a reference to God she had every right to do that. The First Amendment protects all Americans. She had every right to mention God, (but) that dynamic changed when they asked her to read it at an assembly.”

Paulson stated that because students were a captive audience, which means they didn’t have another place to go if they didn’t want to attend the assembly, that administrators had the right to remove the word God.

“Courts have found that religious references at school-sponsored events generally run afoul of the First Amendment,” said Paulson, adding that if kids had randomly been asked what they thought of veterans, the little girl could have shared her poem, because it wasn’t planned. “When a public school knows there’s going to be a reference to religion then there is a problem and they have to address it. The reason for these restrictions is to prevent the government from endorsing a specific faith or religion. So public schools have to steer clear of religious references.”

http://www.hickoryrecord.com/mcdowell_news/news/article_c671bb96-335e-11e2-9c33-001a4bcf6878.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: whork on November 30, 2012, 04:44:28 PM
How insecure do you have to be to complain about a little kid saying the word "God"? 

'God' removed from student's poem
Landdis Hollifield
Posted: Tuesday, November 20, 2012

A decision to remove the word “God” from a school program is causing a world of controversy for McDowell County Schools.

But a First Amendment expert said school officials made the right decision.

During Monday’s Board of Education meeting, two members of the public stepped forward to talk to board members about a First Amendment issue at West Marion Elementary.

McDowell County Schools employee Chris Greene and McDowell County resident Esther Dollarhyde each took a turn talking about West Marion Elementary’s Veterans Day program during the public comment portion of the meeting.

“On Nov. 8, 2012 West Marion held their annual Veterans Day program in the midst of a lot of drama,” Greene said. “We had one parent concerned with the use of the word God in this program. This parent did not want the word God mentioned anywhere in the program. When the demand from this person was heard, the rights of another stopped. It did so by hushing the voice of a six-year-old girl.”

Greene said the student had written a special poem for the program about her grandfathers, both of whom had served in the armed forces during the Vietnam War.

In it, she wrote, “he prayed to God for peace, he prayed to God for strength,” which Greene stated she was told she could not read during the school assembly.

“She was told that she was not allowed to say the word God during this program” stated Greene. “Being a six year old, and not knowing her rights, she did what she was told.”

Greene said the girl wasn’t trying to force people to pray, but was just telling them what her grandfather had done.

“Let me add here that those prayers worked, because he went on to serve two tours in Vietnam,” Greene said. “My question is this, when do the rights of one outweigh the rights of another? I believe that this little girl’s rights were violated and that those who worked so hard to prepare this program should receive an apology.”

Esther Dollarhyde agreed.

“We need to keep in mind what was our country founded on,” stated Dollarhyde. “It was founded on God and Jesus Christ, and our veterans went out and fought for us so we would have a free country, but if we aren’t allowed to honor them the way that the children want to then America is getting lost.”

When contacted after the presentations, School Board member Lynn Greene, who is also Chris Greene’s father, said school officials had overstepped their authority.

“My understanding on the law is a teacher cannot promote any certain religion, but when it comes to students voicing their opinion or expressing themselves in a poem we pretty much have to give some leeway,” Greene said. “To me this whole thing is a violation of that child’s rights. Nobody forced her to write the poem, that was her part of the program. She was asked to write a poem about veterans and she did. My personal opinion is that her rights were violated.”

School Board member Terry Frank said he could not comment until he knew more about the situation.

When asked why the decision was made to remove the word God, Superintendent Gerri Martin said it came about after a serious discussion with West Marion’s Principal Desarae Kirkpatrick and Vice Principal Nakia Carson.

“The discussion (about the poem) occurred between myself, the principal and the assistant principal at West Marion,” stated Martin. “We wanted to make sure we were upholding the school district’s responsibility of separation of church and state from the Establishment Clause.”

When asked why other schools were allowed to hold programs containing poems and student writings with the word God in them, Martin said that was because West Marion was the only one who had asked for consultation about their program.

Kirkpatrick, like Martin, said the decision was based on a public school’s necessity to not infringe upon other students’ freedom of religion.

“After consulting with the Superintendent, Dr. Martin, we jointly decided that we must err on the side of caution to prevent from crossing the line on the Establishment Clause of the Constitution,” stated Kirkpatrick. “As a principal of a public school, I must put aside my personal religious beliefs and follow the law, which upholds that we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but that we, as public schools, cannot endorse one single religion over another.”

The McDowell News contacted the First Amendment Center in Washington, D.C., which serves as a forum for the study and exploration of free-expression issues, including freedom of speech, of the press and of religion, and the rights to assemble and to petition the government.

After studying the situation, President and Chief Executive Officer Ken Paulson stated the school did in fact have the right to remove the word God from the child’s poem.

“Courts have consistently held up the rights for students to express themselves unless their speech is disruptive to the school,” stated Paulson. “When the little girl wrote the poem and included a reference to God she had every right to do that. The First Amendment protects all Americans. She had every right to mention God, (but) that dynamic changed when they asked her to read it at an assembly.”

Paulson stated that because students were a captive audience, which means they didn’t have another place to go if they didn’t want to attend the assembly, that administrators had the right to remove the word God.

“Courts have found that religious references at school-sponsored events generally run afoul of the First Amendment,” said Paulson, adding that if kids had randomly been asked what they thought of veterans, the little girl could have shared her poem, because it wasn’t planned. “When a public school knows there’s going to be a reference to religion then there is a problem and they have to address it. The reason for these restrictions is to prevent the government from endorsing a specific faith or religion. So public schools have to steer clear of religious references.”

http://www.hickoryrecord.com/mcdowell_news/news/article_c671bb96-335e-11e2-9c33-001a4bcf6878.html

WTF

 >:(
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tbombz on November 30, 2012, 05:02:23 PM
references to "God" made in government agencies should be allowed, but there should absolutely never be any mention of any particular religious dogma (such as quoting the bible, checking for bibles in hotel rooms, encouraging church attendance, saying the name "jesus", etc.)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tbombz on December 01, 2012, 02:58:02 PM
BAPTIST CHURCH REFUSES TO ALLOW A BLACK COUPLE TO MARRY AND IS THEN SHAMED INTO AN APOLOGY WHEN THEIR BIGOTRY IS MADE PUBLIC

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/06/church-that-refused-to-marry-black-couple-releases-apology/  
  private organization, they can do whatever they want. be racist, be homophobic, be whatever. thats what freedom is all about.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Mr. Magoo on December 01, 2012, 03:06:21 PM
  private organization, they can do whatever they want. be racist, be homophobic, be whatever. thats what freedom is all about.

I disagree.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: tbombz on December 01, 2012, 07:15:10 PM
I disagree.
well then i think your an authoritarian who doesnt believe in the freedom to do what you choose so long as your not infringing on others freedoms in the process!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 03, 2012, 12:38:33 PM
references to "God" made in government agencies should be allowed, but there should absolutely never be any mention of any particular religious dogma (such as quoting the bible, checking for bibles in hotel rooms, encouraging church attendance, saying the name "jesus", etc.)

There is nothing wrong with mentioning or say the name of any religious figure in public.  Contrary to what some atheists want and/or believe, the First Amendment isn't about cleansing religion from the public square. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 03, 2012, 12:39:24 PM
I disagree.

You think private organizations should not be able to discriminate? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Mr. Magoo on December 03, 2012, 04:04:43 PM
There is nothing wrong with mentioning or say the name of any religious figure in public.  Contrary to what some atheists want and/or believe, the First Amendment isn't about cleansing religion from the public square. 

this obviously hinges on the court's interpretation of "respecting".
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Straw Man on December 03, 2012, 04:08:47 PM
There is nothing wrong with mentioning or say the name of any religious figure in public.  Contrary to what some atheists want and/or believe, the First Amendment isn't about cleansing religion from the public square.  

plenty of christians get their panties in a twist if any religious figure other than a christian religious figure is mentioned in public

here is one example:

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Mr. Magoo on December 03, 2012, 04:09:45 PM
well then i think your an authoritarian who doesnt believe in the freedom to do what you choose so long as your not infringing on others freedoms in the process!

This is a very amateur interpretation. "Free to do whatever as long as you don't infringe upon the freedom of others." This sounds like something a modern libertarian politician would spew out. But the concept of property, for example, infringes on the freedom of others, i.e. "You are no longer free to trespass." But no libertarian is against owning property, so the whole mantra of "free to do whatever as long as it doesn't infringe on others freedoms" should be reformulated.  

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Mr. Magoo on December 03, 2012, 04:12:34 PM
You think private organizations should not be able to discriminate? 

What do you mean "discriminate"?

But that wasn't what Tbombz said originally anyway. He said private organizations can do "whatever they want" because "that is what freedom is all about".

Private organizations can't do whatever they want, and being able to is not what freedom is all about.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 03, 2012, 04:27:29 PM
this obviously hinges on the court's interpretation of "respecting".

"Respecting" in the First Amendment doesn't mean you have to cleanse religion from the public square.  It doesn't mean you can't have religious symbols on public property.  Or chaplains on the government payroll in the House of Representatives and U.S. Senate.  Or military chaplains paid for by tax dollars.  Or most of the other things some paranoid atheists run around the country crying about. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 03, 2012, 04:29:32 PM
What do you mean "discriminate"?

But that wasn't what Tbombz said originally anyway. He said private organizations can do "whatever they want" because "that is what freedom is all about".

Private organizations can't do whatever they want, and being able to is not what freedom is all about.

I thought he was referring to discrimination, but maybe I'm assuming too much. 

No, private organizations (or anyone else for that matter) can't do whatever they want.  I was only talking about discrimination (race, gender, national origin, religion, etc.).
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: whork on December 04, 2012, 03:45:45 AM
This is a very amateur interpretation. "Free to do whatever as long as you don't infringe upon the freedom of others." This sounds like something a modern libertarian politician would spew out. But the concept of property, for example, infringes on the freedom of others, i.e. "You are no longer free to trespass." But no libertarian is against owning property, so the whole mantra of "free to do whatever as long as it doesn't infringe on others freedoms" should be reformulated.  



Good post.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 10, 2012, 11:41:09 AM
Secular group rips Kansas Gov. Brownback for promotion of faith rally
Published December 10, 2012
FoxNews.com

A secular group tore into Kansas Gov. Sam Brownback over the weekend for promoting a national faith rally, saying the Republican governor needs to "repent" for allegedly violating the separation of church and state.

Whether any constitutional boundaries were actually breached is unclear, but Americans United for Separation of Church and State was unsparing in its criticism of the governor.

"The people of Kansas do not need politicians telling us when, how or whether to pray," Vickie Sandell Stangl, president of the Great Plains Chapter of Americans United, said in a statement.

"If anybody needs to repent, it's Gov. Brownback. He needs to repent for violating the constitutional separation of church and state."

The Kansas governor spoke on Saturday at a ReignDown USA event in Topeka, Kan., where he used his 10-minute appearance to discuss how he turned to religion after being diagnosed with cancer in 1995.

According to an account in The Topeka Capital-Journal, Brownback said: "I finally reached up and said, 'God, this life's yours.' It started a great adventure."

But what really rankled Americans United for Separation of Church and State was Brownback's earlier promotion of the prayer rally, in the form of a state proclamation.

"The governor is really overstepping his constitutional bounds. He was elected to serve as governor of our state, not our state pastor-in-chief," Stangl said.

Reached for comment, Executive Director Barry Lynn explained that the group was more concerned with a proclamation put out by the governor's office than his actual remarks at the event.

In the proclamation, Brownback declared Saturday -- the day of the event -- to be a "Day of Restoration."

"We collectively repent of distancing ourselves from God and ask for His mercy on us," the proclamation said.

Brownback, though, also used the proclamation to quote former American presidents -- including George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson -- who discussed their faith and God.

"WHEREAS, our Nation's greatest leaders have called on a merciful God for favor during troubled times," the proclamation said, quoting the Jefferson line: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."

Lynn said the proclamation went too far by "proclaiming that this is good for everyone in the state of Kansas." He said the statement was tantamount to making the ReignDown USA rally a "special state event."

The group also accused ReignDown USA organizers of wanting "government leaders to adopt their religious vision and impose it on us all."

Those organizers, though, rejected that claim.

"We were all just gathering, uniting together, and praying for change," said Shawn-Marie Cole, chief visionary officer with the organizer.

Walt Kallestad, president of the group's advisory board, said the event is not about imposing belief sets.

"ReignDown is really a call for humility, prayer, repentance," he said.

It's hardly the first time Brownback has worn his faith on his sleeves.

In August 2011, he joined Texas Gov. Rick Perry for a national prayer rally. It came as Perry was considering a run for the Republican presidential nomination.

Brownback's office and organizers for ReignDown USA have not yet returned requests from FoxNews.com for comment.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/10/secular-group-rips-kansas-gov-brownback-for-promotion-faith-rally/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 18, 2012, 10:55:09 AM
President Obama at Prayer Vigil for Connecticut Shooting Victims: "Newtown, You Are Not Alone"
Ezra Mechaber
December 16, 2012

Today, President Obama traveled to Newtown, CT to meet with the families of those who were lost in Friday's tragic shooting, and to thank first responders for their work.

This evening the President spoke at an interfaith vigil for families of the victims, and all families from Sandy Hook Elementary School. He offered the love and prayers of a nation grieving alongside Newtown:

Here in Newtown, I come to offer the love and prayers of a nation.  I am very mindful that mere words cannot match the depths of your sorrow, nor can they heal your wounded hearts.  I can only hope it helps for you to know that you’re not alone in your grief; that our world too has been torn apart; that all across this land of ours, we have wept with you, we’ve pulled our children tight.  And you must know that whatever measure of comfort we can provide, we will provide; whatever portion of sadness that we can share with you to ease this heavy load, we will gladly bear it.

Newtown -- you are not alone.

As these difficult days have unfolded, you’ve also inspired us with stories of strength and resolve and sacrifice.  We know that when danger arrived in the halls of Sandy Hook Elementary, the school’s staff did not flinch, they did not hesitate.  Dawn Hochsprung and Mary Sherlach, Vicki Soto, Lauren Rousseau, Rachel Davino and Anne Marie Murphy -- they responded as we all hope we might respond in such terrifying circumstances -- with courage and with love, giving their lives to protect the children in their care.

We know that there were other teachers who barricaded themselves inside classrooms, and kept steady through it all, and reassured their students by saying “wait for the good guys, they’re coming”; “show me your smile.”

And we know that good guys came.  The first responders who raced to the scene, helping to guide those in harm’s way to safety, and comfort those in need, holding at bay their own shock and trauma because they had a job to do, and others needed them more.

And then there were the scenes of the schoolchildren, helping one another, holding each other, dutifully following instructions in the way that young children sometimes do; one child even trying to encourage a grown-up by saying, “I know karate.  So it’s okay.  I’ll lead the way out.”

As a community, you’ve inspired us, Newtown.  In the face of indescribable violence, in the face of unconscionable evil, you’ve looked out for each other, and you’ve cared for one another, and you’ve loved one another.  This is how Newtown will be remembered.  And with time, and God’s grace, that love will see you through.
 

(http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/imagecache/embedded_img_full/image/image_file/20121217-sandy-hook-vigil.jpeg)
President Barack Obama attends the Sandy Hook interfaith vigil at Newtown High School in Newtown, Conn., Sunday, Dec. 16, 2012. (Official White House Photo by Pete Souza)
.President Obama also spoke about the need to engage Americans in efforts to prevent tragedies like the one in Newtown, reiterating that America's first job is caring for our children:

And by that measure, can we truly say, as a nation, that we are meeting our obligations?  Can we honestly say that we’re doing enough to keep our children -- all of them -- safe from harm?  Can we claim, as a nation, that we’re all together there, letting them know that they are loved, and teaching them to love in return?  Can we say that we’re truly doing enough to give all the children of this country the chance they deserve to live out their lives in happiness and with purpose?

I’ve been reflecting on this the last few days, and if we’re honest with ourselves, the answer is no.  We’re not doing enough.  And we will have to change.

Since I’ve been President, this is the fourth time we have come together to comfort a grieving community torn apart by a mass shooting.  The fourth time we’ve hugged survivors.  The fourth time we’ve consoled the families of victims.  And in between, there have been an endless series of deadly shootings across the country, almost daily reports of victims, many of them children, in small towns and big cities all across America -- victims whose -- much of the time, their only fault was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

We can’t tolerate this anymore.  These tragedies must end.  And to end them, we must change.  We will be told that the causes of such violence are complex, and that is true.  No single law -- no set of laws can eliminate evil from the world, or prevent every senseless act of violence in our society.

But that can’t be an excuse for inaction.  Surely, we can do better than this.  If there is even one step we can take to save another child, or another parent, or another town, from the grief that has visited Tucson, and Aurora, and Oak Creek, and Newtown, and communities from Columbine to Blacksburg before that -- then surely we have an obligation to try.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/12/16/president-obama-prayer-vigil-connecticut-shooting-victims-newtown-you-are-not-alone
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 22, 2013, 11:22:01 AM
Obama, Biden attend inaugural prayer service at Washington National Cathedral
By Michelle Boorstein, Jan 22, 2013
The Washington Post

(http://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/01/22/Production/WashingtonPost/Images/516689988.jpg)

Some 2,200 guests filled the Washington National Cathedral on Tuesday morning for the inaugural prayer service, a tradition as old as the country itself.

The service is meant to provide a spiritual boost to the newly sworn-in president. Prominent national clergy — from the Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox Christian, Muslim, Jewish and Sikh traditions — will offer prayers to Obama, who is accompanied by first lady Michelle Obama, Vice President Biden and Jill Biden.

By using the word “gay” in his inaugural speech, Obama makes history and elevates a struggle.

A leader from the Metropolitan Community Church, a Christian denomination that focuses on outreach to gays and lesbians, is among the speakers at the service this year for the first time, a moment of inclusion that echoes Obama’s historic outreach to gay Americans in Monday’s inaugural address.

“The reason we come together to pray is because we want the best for our country,” said Cardinal Donald Wuerl, the archbishop of the Washington Catholic archdiocese, as he entered the cathedral early Tuesday. “We pray for our president, we pray for our vice president. We pray for our leaders as we move forward.”

After the drama and pomp of the inaugural service and the let-loose vibe of Monday night’s inaugural balls, the prayer service — even in the cavernous Gothic cathedral in Northwest Washington — has a more intimate feel, with clergy standing at a one-person, elevated altar, speaking and looking directly at the president as they pray on his behalf.

The most prominent spot on the program belongs to sermon-giver the Rev. Adam Hamilton, leader of a 16,000-member Methodist church in Kansas and whose most popular writings focus on how to take a middle road in relationships, politics and when confronting spiritual doubt.

Hamilton is expected in his sermon to call for that middle road and a God-led path out of partisan bitterness. He will note the 150th anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation this year and the heavy emphasis the Bible places on freedom.

Due to high security, guests at the service had to arrive an hour or two early. By mid-morning, the ornate nave looked like the merger of a Washington political gathering and a conference of notables from the clergy community. Heads of think tanks, in sober suits, mingled with clergy from every imaginable faith community wearing a variety of colorful robes and head coverings, from the white wrap of the Bahai to the Jewish yarmulke.

Among the political heavyweights were Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., U.S. Trade Representative Ron Kirk, Transportation Secretary Raymond H. LaHood, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.), House Minority Whip Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.), Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick (D) and outgoing Interior Secretary Ken Salazar.

Even though the cathedral is an Episcopal church, its vantage point on a Washington hilltop and its dramatic design have made it a symbolic house of worship for many all-community events.

It was here that President Carter sat in 1979, his face in his hands, at an event to pray for the safe return of U.S. hostages being held in Iran. And it was here that President Reagan and first lady Nancy Reagan made a surprise stop to light candles in 1982, during a three-day vigil at which the names of thousands of troops killed during the Vietnam War were read.

The cathedral, the seat of the Episcopal Church in the United States, is frequently chosen to host memorial services and events honoring prominent American leaders from across the political spectrum. But its leaders have made news in recent weeks by taking progressive social stands.

The Rev. Gary Hall, the cathedral’s new dean, announced in December that the cathedral would begin hosting same-gender weddings, and he also has taken up the cause of gun control in the wake of last month’s Newtown, Conn., shootings.

There have been inaugural prayer services since the time of George Washington, but they have been held consistently at the cathedral since 1933, with the exception of the services after the inaugurations of Bill Clinton in 1993 and 1997.

Clinton chose the Metropolitan African Methodist Episcopal Church, a historic black church in downtown Washington, as the site for his prayer services. The Obama family worshipped at Metropolitan on Sunday.

Among those participating in the service at the cathedral are: Wuerl; the Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori, presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church; Imam Mohamed Magid, president of the Islamic Society of North America and leader of the Sterling mega-mosque All Dulles Area Muslim Society; Rabbi Julie Schonfeld of the Rabbinical Assembly, the international association of rabbis from Judaism’s Conservative movement; and the Rev. Leith Anderson, president of the National Association of Evangelicals.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obama-biden-to-attend-inaugural-prayer-service-at-cathedral-on-tuesday/2013/01/22/9223bad8-64a0-11e2-b84d-21c7b65985ee_story.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 07, 2013, 06:58:32 PM
President Obama speaks about faith and 'humility' at National Prayer Breakfast

'You'd like to think that the shelf life wasn't so short," Obama said of the annual event's bipartisan spirit. 'But I go back to the Oval Office and I start watching the cable news networks and it's like we didn’t pray.'
 
By Kristen A. Lee / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Thursday, February 7, 2013

President Obama celebrated the bipartisan spirit of the annual National Prayer Breakfast on Thursday, while joking about its fleeting nature, during a speech to the gathering in Washington.

Obama largely stayed away from partisan issues while speaking to the mixed crowd, but made a plea for “humility,” saying it’s most important for those with the most power.

“I have to say this is now our fifth prayer breakfast and it is always just a wonderful event. But I do worry sometimes that as soon as we leave the prayer breakfast, everything we've been talking about the whole time at the prayer breakfast seems to be forgotten — on the same day of the prayer breakfast,” Obama said, to laughter from the group. “I mean, you'd like to think that the shelf life wasn't so short. But I go back to the Oval Office and I start watching the cable news networks and it's like we didn’t pray.”

“And so my hope is that humility, that that carries over every day, every moment,” he added.

Italian tenor Andrea Bocelli performed for the bipartisan gathering. This was the 61st prayer breakfast since 1953.

Vice President Biden also attended the gathering, as did a diverse group of VIPs, including Olympic gold medal gymnast Gabrielle Douglas, former Sen. Elizabeth Dole and singer Andrea Bocelli.

“It says something about us — as a nation and as a people — that every year, for 61 years now, this great prayerful tradition has endured,” Obama said. “It says something about us that every year, in times of triumph and in tragedy, in calm and in crisis, we come together, not as Democrats or Republicans, but as brothers and sisters, and as children of God.”

A reportedly sleepy Secretary of State John Kerry chatted with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi at the breakfast. He was sure to broaden his remarks to also include the importance of faith to Americans of different religions, and note that nonbelieving Americans have faith in the nation.

Obama also spoke in unusually personal terms about the importance of Scripture in his own life.

“As President, sometimes I have to search for the words to console the inconsolable,” he said. “Sometimes I search Scripture to determine how best to balance life as a President and as a husband and as a father. I often search for Scripture to figure out how I can be a better man as well as a better President.”

'I often search for Scripture to figure out how I can be a better man as well as a better President,' Obama told the gathering. He noted that he took the oath of office last month on Bibles owned by Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr., saying he imagined they both found solace in Scripture at difficult times.

Arkansas Sen. Mark Pryor, a Democrat, introduced the President.

“You carry burdens none of us in this room can imagine,” he said.

Secretary of State John Kerry, meanwhile, may be feeling the burden of his new job.

A White House pool report noted that he yawned and rubbed his eyes through most of the breakfast.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-urges-humility-national-prayer-breakfast-article-1.1257904
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 08, 2013, 01:06:24 PM

Reverend Al Sharpton expels God in MSNBC promo sermon

By Dan Gainor
Published February 08, 2013
FoxNews.com

Jan. 21, 2013: Rev. Al Sharpton arrives on the West Front of the Capitol in Washington, Monday, , for the President Barack Obama's ceremonial swearing-in ceremony during the 57th Presidential Inauguration. ((AP Photo/Win McNamee, Pool))

 Jesus said to Peter: “Get thee behind me, Satan.” Then came MSNBC. Now it’s God the network is trying to push out of the way. And it’s a reverend, of all people, who is doing it.

Rev. Al Sharpton appeared in a “Lean Forward” ad for his network MSNBC on February 5, where he recited a bit of the Pledge of Allegiance. The 58-year-old Sharpton, who reportedly gave his first sermon at age 9, left God out of his piece of the pledge. But he did remember to include lesbians and gays. So, he’s got that goin’ for him.

“We must have a renewed fight for many of the things we fought for. Because voting rights, and women's rights, and the rights of people against discrimination, whether they're African-American, Latino, lesbian and [sic] gay, must be protected, until we have a nation that is really living up to the creed of one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Not all of one kind. But all,” Rev. Sharpton argued in the commercial.


For all of his faults, Sharpton has a very long history of involvement with and defense of Christian faith.

That’s not how the pledge goes and has done so since 1954, a few months before Rev. Sharpton, the host of MSNBC's “Politics Nation,” was born. The actual pledge was changed that year to include “under God.” That version of the pledge goes like this:

“I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”

Rev. Sharpton removing God is shocking. For all of his faults, he has a very long history of involvement with and defense of Christian faith. According to Rev. Sharpton’s AEI Speakers Bureau profile page, he preached “his first sermon at Washington Temple Church of God & Christ in Brooklyn” at age 9 and later became a Pentecostal minister under Washington Temple Church’s Bishop F. D. Washington. “Sharpton preaches throughout the United States and abroad on most Sundays and averages 80 formal sermons a year,” the profile continued.

But then it noted that “Sharpton says his religious convictions are the basis for his life.” Apparently, commercials aren’t included.

While the reverend has been a major part of civil rights history in the United States, he has been caught up in his share of huge controversies. 

On January 19, NPR ran a list of “Six True-False Statements” that illustrated his complicated career. Those included his role in the bogus Tawana Brawley rape case, where he lost a $65,000 defamation judgment, and links to the Crown Heights riots in New York City.

One funny note from the piece was that Rev. Sharpton denied being James Brown’s tour manager. (Yes, the Godfather of Soul.) “I never was his road manager,” he is quoted as saying. His speakers bureau profile says otherwise. “This same year, Sharpton acted as James Brown's tour manager,” it still reads. Oopsie.

It’s almost impossible to synopsize the remaining lunacy that has summed up Rev. Sharpton’s career from calls for knife control (unsurprising since he was once stabbed in the chest) to tax and debt issues to being caught in an FBI drug sting and openly advising President Obama as one of a few “influential progressives.”

He remains a colorful character so ridiculous that he is hard to lampoon. That said, “Saturday Night Live” mustered a good parody of his show last May in this entertaining clip that strangely also included Mick Jagger.

Whether he’s a TV host or a laughingstock, Shapton has long acknowledged it’s the job of a reverend to help others find God, not edit him out. Of course, that was before his personal collection plate relied on the big MSNBC paycheck.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/02/08/reverend-al-sharpton-expels-god-in-msnbc-promo-sermon/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 20, 2013, 06:18:02 PM
Anderson County Commission endorses 'In God We Trust' on courthouse
By Bob Fowler
Knoxville News Sentinel
Posted February 19, 2013

CLINTON — The nation’s motto, “In God We Trust,” will be going up on the outside of the Anderson County Courthouse following a 12-4 vote of County Commission after more than two hours of impassioned debate Tuesday.

With a standing-room-only audience spilling out into the courthouse hallway, commissioners approved the request, providing no unforeseen roadblocks emerge after study.

The issue was sent to the panel’s operations committee and the county law director to research potential legal liabilities, the possible design of the inscription and its placement.

“It’s our national motto,” said Lee Frank, husband of Anderson County Mayor Terry Frank, who brought the request made by a local businessman to the commission’s attention.

“It’s on our money. It’s been ruled totally constitutional,” he said. “We don’t need to deal with that ACLU crap here.”

Still, the request sparked fervent comments and a revival-like atmosphere in the crowded meeting room, with remarks endorsing the move greeted by frequent applause and punctuated by numerous “amens.”

The mayor’s bid to include the request in her routine report to commission resulted in a crucial initial vote to put the matter on the agenda. Commissioner Myron Iwanski said standard procedure called for the issue to be referred to committee before going before the full commission. Doing so would give commissioners “a chance to think it through and do it in a very orderly way,” he said.

But a motion to consider the request received the requisite two-thirds majority, or 11 votes, to place it directly before commission.

The overwhelming majority of audience members who spoke strongly endorsed the move, launched by Lynn Byrge and supported by pastors of a reported 62 Anderson County churches.

But those who voiced opposition asked whether it would be a violation of the principle of separation of church and state, and if it would be seen as a governmental endorsement of Christianity.

“I see it as an intrusion and it should not be done,” said Ruth Young. She said those who oppose the move haven’t had an opportunity to speak.

Oak Ridge Councilwoman Anne Garcia Garland said there could be an issue of legal liability. “The government needs to be apart from any mention of God,” she said.

“I don’t see why it should really be that controversial,” said the Rev. Mike Thompson, pastor of Second Baptist Church of Clinton. “We do believe this is a part of our nation’s history and heritage.”

“We believe it speaks to who we are,” said the Rev. Steve McDonald, pastor of Calvary Baptist Church of Oak Ridge. He called it a “visible standard that says we have to look to somebody for guidance.”

“Why do we need that on our courthouse when there are other places to put it?” Commissioner Harry “Whitey” Hitchcock asked.

Another commissioner, Robert McKamey, said his motion to put the motto up “is a vote of confidence that we’re going to do it, and we’re going to do it right.”

Supporters have pledged to pay for all costs to place the motto on the courthouse.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/feb/19/anderson-county-commission-endorses-in-god-we-on/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 13, 2013, 12:37:34 PM
 :)

Psalm 23, Newly Revised According to Modern Principles
Proverbial wisdom for the Age of Obama
By MARK HELPRIN

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of debt, I fear no bankruptcy, for Obama is my shepherd. He prepareth a table of food stamps before me, and maketh me lie down beside waters He hath cleansed and seas He hath made recede, even though the bad Republicans wisheth the earth to be burnt unto a cinder, and will not buy the electric car that is good, for it hath zero emissions, and receiveth its power from a power plant, which hath not zero emissions, but the ways of the President are mysterious.

He hath told the stubborn Israelites, evil builders of apartments, that they know not their own interests and He does, and know not what they do, when they fear the nuclear weapon of the Persians. The ways of the President are mysterious. He alloweth the Persians to get the nuclear weapon (unless He hath something up His sleeve), for He knoweth that when they behold Him they will stay their hand, and not burn the Israelites unto a cinder, as they pronounce.

Yea, though Bernanke maketh funny money that will not compute, Obama prepareth a statistical table in front of the bad Republicans that showeth it will, if only they have faith. Fear not the Hellenes and the path they have trod. Though for sure we shall follow them, the President will be our sword, and our shield. His Hillary Rodham and his staff, they comfort us.

Fear not the Chinois, whose power waxes as ours wanes, for someday thy children's children shall journey over the sea that Obama hath made recede, west of the land of Geffen and Famous Amos, to build railroads for Beijing. Then the Third World will have inherited the earth, and the strong will have been laid low, which is good, and which is also the Democratic platform.

Verily, we should be like the meek of the earth, and follow the commands of the President, the Amalekites, the EPA, and the IRS, which taketh our money, which is good, for we know not what to do with it. And Obama does, for you did not buildeth that. Once, we were slaves in the land of Reagan (and if you attributeth the "Reagan" deficits to increased military spending and lowered tax rates, tryeth accounting for the changes in military expenditure and tax revenues in the Reagan years, for, lo, when combined they yieldeth a surplus). Then, we were sinners, in spending our own money for what we thought was our own good. But now we are free, for the President spendeth it for us, and He maketh miracles, for, lo, He roasteth invisible chickens, and, lo, He spendeth money that existeth not, that Bernanke printeth. And, lo, it buys us stuff, for now.

Yea, though I accumulate debt higher than the mountains of Gilboa, and the deadbeats skip like rams, I shall not want, for Bernanke maketh funny money, and the President smiles upon the land, but not upon the bad Republicans. For they wisheth to live within their means, which surely must be evil. And what would you expect from people who are suspicious of Social Security? And wisheth to burn the earth unto a cinder.

But arithmetic notwithstanding, I will dwell in the house of Obama all the days of my life. (Why not four terms, and what about Michelle? For the Constitution liveth.) And, the earth having been purified, surely it will be good when—and where do I apply for—government assistance will be the only thing left.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323940004578255810468323252.html?mod=ITP_opinion_0
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 03, 2013, 03:09:39 PM
Ohio school takes down Jesus portrait under legal threat
Published April 03, 2013
FoxNews.com

(http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/U.S./jesusportrait.jpg)
Feb. 12, 2013: A painting of Jesus Christ, upper left, hanging above an entrance to Jackson Middle School in Jackson, Ohio, next to a 'Hall of Honor' showing famous Jackson residents and school alumni. (AP)
A portrait of Jesus that had adorned a southern Ohio public school district building since 1947 has been taken down after officials decided they could not risk losing a lawsuit to the American Civil Liberties Union.

The superintendent of Jackson City Schools told The Associated Press that the decision was made after the district's insurance company declined to cover litigation expenses. Phil Howard said a student club that the school says owns the portrait took it down Wednesday morning at his direction.

"At the end of the day, we just couldn't roll the dice with taxpayer money," Howard said. "When you get into these kinds of legal battles, you're not talking about money you can raise with bake sales and car washes. It's not fair to take those resources from our kids' education."

The ACLU and the Freedom from Religion Foundation had sued on behalf of a student and two parents, calling the portrait an unconstitutional promotion of religion in a public school. An ACLU spokesman says the lawsuit remains in effect, but will be dropped if the portrait stays down.

The "Head of Christ," a popular depiction of Jesus, had been in an entranceway's "Hall of Honor" in a middle school building that was formerly a high school. It was near portraits of dozens of prominent alumni and people with local roots such as the late four-term Ohio Gov. James Rhodes. The portrait was moved recently by a Christian-based service club to the current high school building.

A complaint that triggered the February lawsuit put the 2,500-student district in the midst of the ongoing national debate over what religious-themed displays are permissible.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/03/ohio-superintendent-removes-jesus-portrait-due-to-lawsuit-concerns/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2013, 12:34:58 PM
Supreme Court will rule on prayer at government meetings
Richard Wolf, USA TODAY11:57 a.m. EDT May 20, 2013

WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court agreed Monday to consider whether prayers can be offered at government meetings -- a practice that's been common in Congress and throughout the states for more than two centuries.

The religious expression case, which comes to the court from the town of Greece, N.Y., focuses on the first 10 words of the First Amendment, ratified in 1791: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

That Establishment Clause was violated, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last year, when the Greece Town Board repeatedly used Christian clergy to conduct prayers at the start of its public meetings. The decision created a rift with other appeals courts that have upheld prayer at public meetings, prompting the justices to step in.

Alliance Defending Freedom, an Arizona-based Christian non-profit group, appealed the case to the Supreme Court. It is supported in separate briefs by 49 mostly Republican members of Congress and 18 state attorneys general.

In a press release entitled "Prayer will be heard on high," the group noted the high court affirmed the practice of prayer before public meetings in the 1983 case Marsh v. Chambers, in which it cited an "unambiguous and unbroken history" of such prayers.

But recent legal attacks by individuals and groups claiming to be offended by such prayers have created significant confusion in the lower courts.

"A few people should not be able to extinguish the traditions of our nation merely because they heard something they didn't like," said Brett Harvey, a senior counsel with Alliance Defending Freedom. "Because the authors of the Constitution invoked God's blessing on public proceedings, this tradition shouldn't suddenly be deemed unconstitutional."

Thomas Hungar of Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher, the attorney who filed the challenge, said, "The practice of legislative prayer is firmly embedded in the history and traditions of this nation. We hope the court will reaffirm the settled understanding that such prayers, offered without improper motive and in accordance with the conscience of the prayer-giver, are constitutional."

Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a Washington, D.C.-based watchdog group, is representing the two women who challenged the town's practice, Susan Galloway and Linda Stephens. The group said that two-thirds of the prayers delivered between 1999 and June 2010 contained references to Jesus Christ, Your Son, the Holy Spirit or Jesus.

"A town council meeting isn't a church service, and it shouldn't seem like one," said Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. "Government can't serve everyone in the community when it endorses one faith over others. That sends the clear message that some are second-class citizens based on what they believe about religion."

Kenneth Klukowski, a lawyer for the Family Research Council who filed a brief on behalf of the 49 U.S. House members, said the Supreme Court was correct to take the case to clear up differences among lower courts on the issue of religious expression. It represents the first such case to reach the high court in a generation, he said.

"If the Second Circuit's decision is what the Establishment Clause requires, then Congress has been violating the Establishment Clause since it was ratified in 1791," Klukowski said. His brief notes that in the 112th Congress, 97% of the prayers used to open House sessions were Christian, as opposed to Jewish or Muslim, yet the practice is widely accepted.

The court will hear the case in its next term, which begins in October. Its decision, expected by June 2014, could have broad implications for public schools and events, as well as for individuals who seek to convey religious messages.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/05/20/supreme-court-prayer-new-york-government-meeting/2151385/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 06, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
Nice.   :)

High School Valedictorian Recites Lord's Prayer At Graduation In Defiance Of Prayer Ban (VIDEO)
Posted: 06/05/2013 6:15 pm EDT  |  Updated: 06/05/2013 7:45 pm EDT

While delivering his graduation speech over the weekend, a high school valedictorian sent shock waves through the crowd when he ditched his original speech and recited the Lord's Prayer instead.

According to NBC affiliate KCRA.com, Roy Costner IV, who attended Liberty High School in Liberty, S.C., stunned those gathered at his school's graduation ceremony on Saturday when he ripped up his pre-approved speech at the podium before addressing the crowd.

“Those that we look up to, they have helped carve and mold us into the young adults that we are today. I’m so thankful that both of my parents led me to the Lord at a young age," Costner said moments before launching into the Lord's Prayer.

Christian News reports that Costner had apparently decided to recite the prayer in protest of his school district's decision to omit prayer at graduation ceremonies.

As Costner prayed, many of those gathered broke out into applause. Soon the auditorium was filled with cheers of encouragement.

"You couldn't even hear him doing the prayer anymore because everybody was clapping and cheering," Brian Hoover, who attended the graduation, told KCRA.com.

Costner told Fox Carolina this week that it had been "an emotional moment," looking out and seeing the crowd's reaction.

A spokesperson for the Pickens County School District said that Costner would not be reprimanded for his prayer. "The bottom line is, we're not going to punish students for expressing their religious faith," John Eby said, according to Christian News.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/05/high-school-valedictorian-prayer_n_3391963.html?utm_hp_ref=religion
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 05, 2013, 01:09:30 PM
An atheist chaplain.  How utterly ridiculous. 

Chaplains for Atheists: Messy Implications for Atheism
By Wallace Henley, Special to CP
August 1, 2013

The House of Representatives voted July 23 against proposals for atheist chaplains in the U.S. military. The vote was an overwhelming defeat for the idea. Only two Republicans and 171 Democrats voted for atheist chaplains.

Contrary to what you may be reading, Christians should be disappointed and atheists should be glad.

Why? Because allowing atheist chaplains recognizes atheism as a religion and would make atheists subject to the same legal restrictions they have gleefully placed on every other religion.

In the contemporary environment it is easier to speak against God than for God in the public square. An officially sanctioned military chaplaincy for atheists could actually weaken the atheists' grip on public religious expression.

After all, it was a Supreme Court justice who, in 1961, recognized non-belief in a deity as religion. "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others," opined Justice Hugo Black, in a footnote in the Torcaso v Watkins case.

Atheists seem to want atheism to be a religion.

"Humanism fills the same role for atheists that Christianity does for Christians and Judaism does for Jews," said Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, in support of the atheist chaplaincy proposal.

If atheists want it, it's about time, therefore, that atheism should be recognized for what it is – a belief system regarding deity and ultimate reality. It has its own creeds, high priests, and scriptures. Bygone prophets like Bertrand Russell are revered along with the contemporary evangelists of atheism, like Richard Dawkins. The late Christopher Hitchens is among its saints.

Appointing atheist chaplains would give official sanction of sorts to the religious nature of atheism. In fact, atheism focuses passionately on spirituality. It works feverishly to deny the spiritual nature of the human being, and only wants the chaplains for ethical and psychological guidance.

In that light, maybe advocates for an atheist military chaplaincy might rethink their position.

Think about the inferences.

Now, every time a non-theist squeaks opposition to prayer at a school ballgame, or before a city council meeting, or most any other public event, powerful movements mobilize. The mere lifting of a potentially litigating eyebrow shuts down what many consider freedom of speech and expression.

Atheism's well-financed institutions often base their arguments on the allegation that taxpayer money is being used to advocate a particular religion. But if atheism is seen for what it is, a religion, then theists might be able to claim their tax money is now used to advocate the atheist position of no prayer.

So if atheism is recognized as a religion, might it be possible that theists could have new standing? They might even be able to argue that authorities are unconstitutionally favoring the religion of atheism by restricting prayer to a deity?

The Founders, we are reminded, opposed a state religion. But today secular humanism is most definitely the American state religion in the eyes of some courts. Atheists use their religion to regularly win orders for the removal of crosses and other religious symbols, the abolition of prayer in certain public institutions, and the prohibition of teaching that might imply advocacy of any religion in public schools except atheism.

This atheist chaplain thing could get messy for the atheists. If they are recognized as religionists they may be under the same Big Brother search lamp, legal threats and harassment theistic religions face every day throughout the nation.

Perhaps its advocates should rethink their position. After all, they might lose the power to remove all those terribly offensive Christmas nativity scenes.

Maybe the stables, mangers, shepherds and animals could be replaced with Professor Hawking's "fluctuating void." Which would mean the crèches would be replaced with nothing – a perfect symbol for their religion.


Wallace Henley, senior associate pastor at Houston's Second Baptist Church. He is an adjunct professor in worldview studies at Belhaven University. Henley is a former newspaper editor and reporter, and served in the White House and as a staff in the U.S. House of Representatives. His book, Globequake, was published by Thomas Nelson.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/chaplains-for-atheists-messy-implications-for-atheism-101341/#uyHb7hgh4pbPcv7D.99
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on October 16, 2013, 11:23:03 PM
"Paranoid anti-religious extremists".. Oh, wait...

House Stenographer Yanked From Chamber Ranting About God, Freemasons

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/10/house-stenographer-yanked-from-chamber-ranting-about-god-freemasons/

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 28, 2013, 01:19:11 PM
Speaking of paranoid anti-religious extremists . . . .  Those folks need to get a life already. 

Atheist group seeks end to Alabama grief counseling by clergy
Published October 26, 2013
FoxNews.com

An atheist group is asking the city of Montgomery to provide evidence that sending clergy to support victims at violent crime scenes will reduce crime in the city.

The organization American Atheists has questioned how providing grief counseling after a crime will reduce the number of crimes in the city.

The group claims Montgomery's Operation Good Shepherd program is unconstitutional. 

“Considering that the program sends pastors to crime scenes after the fact to console victims, American Atheists questions the city’s claim that grief counseling for victims is for the purpose of reducing violent crime or acting as a deterrent,” the organization told AL.com.

“American atheists will be requesting that city officials provide the studies or other factual evidence they are using to support this claim for which taxpayer dollars are being used,” the group said.

City officials told al.com the new program dispatches trained clergy to comfort victims at crime scenes in an effort to combat violent crime. City officials said the purpose of the program is not for "religious promotion or recruitment."

Montgomery Police Department Chaplain E. Baxter Morris said the program offers an “evangelistic advance,” and said it gives him an opportunity to “share a word from Christ” to victims, AL.com reported.

According to the report, American Atheists claim the city is using the program “as a vehicle to proselytize.”

Montgomery City Attorney Kimberly Fehl said in a letter to American Atheists that religious leaders had volunteered to provide the counseling.

Fehl’s said in the letter that there has been a “misrepresentation of the objective and implementation of the program,” AL.com reported. Fehl said the program is part of many used by the Montgomery Police Department in its effort to combat violent crime.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/26/atheist-group-seeks-end-to-alabama-grief-counseling-by-clergy/?intcmp=latestnews
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on October 29, 2013, 06:29:48 AM
Speaking of paranoid anti-religious extremists . . . .  Those folks need to get a life already.  

Atheist group seeks end to Alabama grief counseling by clergy
Published October 26, 2013
FoxNews.com

An atheist group is asking the city of Montgomery to provide evidence that sending clergy to support victims at violent crime scenes will reduce crime in the city.

The organization American Atheists has questioned how providing grief counseling after a crime will reduce the number of crimes in the city.

The group claims Montgomery's Operation Good Shepherd program is unconstitutional.  

“Considering that the program sends pastors to crime scenes after the fact to console victims, American Atheists questions the city’s claim that grief counseling for victims is for the purpose of reducing violent crime or acting as a deterrent,” the organization told AL.com.

“American atheists will be requesting that city officials provide the studies or other factual evidence they are using to support this claim for which taxpayer dollars are being used,” the group said.

City officials told al.com the new program dispatches trained clergy to comfort victims at crime scenes in an effort to combat violent crime. City officials said the purpose of the program is not for "religious promotion or recruitment."

Montgomery Police Department Chaplain E. Baxter Morris said the program offers an “evangelistic advance,” and said it gives him an opportunity to “share a word from Christ” to victims, AL.com reported.

According to the report, American Atheists claim the city is using the program “as a vehicle to proselytize.”

Montgomery City Attorney Kimberly Fehl said in a letter to American Atheists that religious leaders had volunteered to provide the counseling.

Fehl’s said in the letter that there has been a “misrepresentation of the objective and implementation of the program,” AL.com reported. Fehl said the program is part of many used by the Montgomery Police Department in its effort to combat violent crime.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/26/atheist-group-seeks-end-to-alabama-grief-counseling-by-clergy/?intcmp=latestnews

I have to assume that the American Atheists that raised the issue brought forth factual evidence concerning why the grief counseling by clergy doesn't help in these circumstances first before requesting evidence that is does, correct?    I also have to assume that the American Atheists also brought forth a throughly planned alternative for the volunteer clergy that causes no additional burden for the taxpayer whatsoever while improving the level of counseling?   Or if the alternative proposed did cause increased burden for taxpayers that definite justification for the alternative was presented?

I can't imagine that the group just capriciously raised the objection, immediately demanded some form of validating study and yet offered no initial support to back their objections while not providing a more efficient, improved alternative for the existing volunteer counseling.  

Is the American Atheist group that raised the objection highly experienced in grief counseling and crime prevention methods?  I have to assume that there was more behind the objection other than their own personal objections to theists in general.

Did the American Atheist group provide data that showed that victims that received counseling were unhappy with the guidance they received?   Did the American Atheists provide data that indicates that the grief counseling was only a thinly veiled attempt to convert victims to the clergy-counseler's particular brand of faith?  Did the American Atheists group provide any studies that indicated that post-incident the victims that received counseling from pastors had their quality of life diminished?  Again, I have to assume that the objections were grounded in some of these kinds of ideas and data before the objections were raised.  

If these preliminary conditions were met (and accompanied the initial objections) then demands for independent studies by the local government in support of the theists' volunteer efforts would seem reasonable.  If not the objections seem like good ole fashioned grandstanding, but really nothing more than prattle.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 04, 2013, 12:20:17 PM
I have to assume that the American Atheists that raised the issue brought forth factual evidence concerning why the grief counseling by clergy doesn't help in these circumstances first before requesting evidence that is does, correct?    I also have to assume that the American Atheists also brought forth a throughly planned alternative for the volunteer clergy that causes no additional burden for the taxpayer whatsoever while improving the level of counseling?   Or if the alternative proposed did cause increased burden for taxpayers that definite justification for the alternative was presented?

I can't imagine that the group just capriciously raised the objection, immediately demanded some form of validating study and yet offered no initial support to back their objections while not providing a more efficient, improved alternative for the existing volunteer counseling.  

Is the American Atheist group that raised the objection highly experienced in grief counseling and crime prevention methods?  I have to assume that there was more behind the objection other than their own personal objections to theists in general.

Did the American Atheist group provide data that showed that victims that received counseling were unhappy with the guidance they received?   Did the American Atheists provide data that indicates that the grief counseling was only a thinly veiled attempt to convert victims to the clergy-counseler's particular brand of faith?  Did the American Atheists group provide any studies that indicated that post-incident the victims that received counseling from pastors had their quality of life diminished?  Again, I have to assume that the objections were grounded in some of these kinds of ideas and data before the objections were raised.  

If these preliminary conditions were met (and accompanied the initial objections) then demands for independent studies by the local government in support of the theists' volunteer efforts would seem reasonable.  If not the objections seem like good ole fashioned grandstanding, but really nothing more than prattle.

Oh I doubt they offered any evidence.  I think they are a funny group.  Organized and lobbying based on a belief in nothing. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 04, 2013, 12:21:03 PM
Texas woman recognized for 80 consecutive years with church
Published November 04, 2013
Associated Press

CHIRENO, TEXAS –  An East Texas woman has been recognized for her 80-year unbroken membership in her church.

Lilly Stone joined the Chireno United Methodist Church in 1933, when she was 8 years old. The Daily Sentinel in Nacogdoches reports that Stone was recently awarded a plaque signed by the church's bishop and district superintendent honoring her longtime membership.

Stone says, "It was a shock. I really didn't know how long I had been a member. I didn't think about it."

Stone joined the church while living with her grandmother, whose house abutted the church's parsonage.

Stone celebrated her 88th birthday on Thursday.

Chireno is a town of about 400 people located about 200 miles southeast of Dallas.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/04/texas-woman-recognized-for-80-consecutive-years-with-church/?intcmp=latestnews
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 04, 2013, 03:32:46 PM
Great story.

Fox News' Highly Reluctant Jesus Follower
Of all people surprised that I became an evangelical Christian, I'm the most surprised.
Kirsten Powers
posted 10/22/2013

Just seven years ago, if someone had told me that I'd be writing for Christianity Today magazine about how I came to believe in God, I would have laughed out loud. If there was one thing in which I was completely secure, it was that I would never adhere to any religion—especially to evangelical Christianity, which I held in particular contempt.

I grew up in the Episcopal Church in Alaska, but my belief was superficial and flimsy. It was borrowed from my archaeologist father, who was so brilliant he taught himself to speak and read Russian. When I encountered doubt, I would fall back on the fact that he believed.

Leaning on my father's faith got me through high school. But by college it wasn't enough, especially because as I grew older he began to confide in me his own doubts. What little faith I had couldn't withstand this revelation. From my early 20s on, I would waver between atheism and agnosticism, never coming close to considering that God could be real.

After college I worked as an appointee in the Clinton administration from 1992 to 1998. The White House surrounded me with intellectual people who, if they had any deep faith in God, never expressed it. Later, when I moved to New York, where I worked in Democratic politics, my world became aggressively secular. Everyone I knew was politically left-leaning, and my group of friends was overwhelmingly atheist.

I sometimes hear Christians talk about how terrible life must be for atheists. But our lives were not terrible. Life actually seemed pretty wonderful, filled with opportunity and good conversation and privilege. I know now that it was not as wonderful as it could have been. But you don't know what you don't know. How could I have missed something I didn't think existed?

Very Open-Minded

To the extent that I encountered Christians, it was in the news cycle. And inevitably they were saying something about gay people or feminists. I didn't feel I was missing much. So when I began dating a man who was into Jesus, I was not looking for God. In fact, the week before I met him, a friend had asked me if I had any deal breakers in dating. My response: "Just nobody who is religious."

A few months into our relationship, my boyfriend called to say he had something important to talk to me about. I remember exactly where I was sitting in my West Village apartment when he said, "Do you believe Jesus is your Savior?" My stomach sank. I started to panic. Oh no, was my first thought. He's crazy.

When I answered no, he asked, "Do you think you could ever believe it?" He explained that he was at a point in life when he wanted to get married and felt that I could be that person, but he couldn't marry a non-Christian. I said I didn't want to mislead him—that I would never believe in Jesus.

Then he said the magic words for a liberal: "Do you think you could keep an open mind about it?" Well, of course. "I'm very open-minded!" Even though I wasn't at all. I derided Christians as anti-intellectual bigots who were too weak to face the reality that there is no rhyme or reason to the world. I had found this man's church attendance an oddity to overlook, not a point in his favor.

As he talked, I grew conflicted. On the one hand, I was creeped out. On the other hand, I had enormous respect for him. He is smart, educated, and intellectually curious. I remember thinking, What if this is true, and I'm not even willing to consider it?

A few weeks later I went to church with him. I was so clueless about Christianity that I didn't know that some Presbyterians were evangelicals. So when we arrived at the Upper East Side service of Redeemer Presbyterian Church, I was shocked and repelled by what I saw. I was used to the high-church liturgy of my youth. We were meeting in an auditorium with a band playing what I later learned was "praise music." I thought, How am I going to tell him I can never come back?

But then the pastor preached. I was fascinated. I had never heard a pastor talk about the things he did. Tim Keller's sermon was intellectually rigorous, weaving in art and history and philosophy. I decided to come back to hear him again. Soon, hearing Keller speak on Sunday became the highlight of my week. I thought of it as just an interesting lecture—not really church. I just tolerated the rest of it in order to hear him. Any person who is familiar with Keller's preaching knows that he usually brings Jesus in at the end of the sermon to tie his points together. For the first few months, I left feeling frustrated: Why did he have to ruin a perfectly good talk with this Jesus nonsense?

Each week, Keller made the case for Christianity. He also made the case against atheism and agnosticism. He expertly exposed the intellectual weaknesses of a purely secular worldview. I came to realize that even if Christianity wasn't the real thing, neither was atheism.

I began to read the Bible. My boyfriend would pray with me for God to reveal himself to me. After about eight months of going to hear Keller, I concluded that the weight of evidence was on the side of Christianity. But I didn't feel any connection to God, and frankly, I was fine with that. I continued to think that people who talked of hearing from God or experiencing God were either delusional or lying. In my most generous moments, I allowed that they were just imagining things that made them feel good.

Then one night in 2006, on a trip to Taiwan, I woke up in what felt like a strange cross between a dream and reality. Jesus came to me and said, "Here I am." It felt so real. I didn't know what to make of it. I called my boyfriend, but before I had time to tell him about it, he told me he had been praying the night before and felt we were supposed to break up. So we did. Honestly, while I was upset, I was more traumatized by Jesus visiting me.

Completely True

I tried to write off the experience as misfiring synapses, but I couldn't shake it. When I returned to New York a few days later, I was lost. I suddenly felt God everywhere and it was terrifying. More important, it was unwelcome. It felt like an invasion. I started to fear I was going crazy.
I didn't know what to do, so I spoke with writer Eric Metaxas, whom I had met through my boyfriend and who had talked with me quite a bit about God. "You need to be in a Bible study," he said. "And Kathy Keller's Bible study is the one you need to be in." I didn't like the sound of that, but I was desperate. My whole world was imploding. How was I going to tell my family or friends about what had happened? Nobody would understand. I didn't understand. (It says a lot about the family in which I grew up that one of my most pressing concerns was that Christians would try to turn me into a Republican.)

I remember walking into the Bible study. I had a knot in my stomach. In my mind, only weirdoes and zealots went to Bible studies. I don't remember what was said that day. All I know is that when I left, everything had changed. I'll never forget standing outside that apartment on the Upper East Side and saying to myself, "It's true. It's completely true." The world looked entirely different, like a veil had been lifted off it. I had not an iota of doubt. I was filled with indescribable joy.

The horror of the prospect of being a devout Christian crept back in almost immediately. I spent the next few months doing my best to wrestle away from God. It was pointless. Everywhere I turned, there he was. Slowly there was less fear and more joy. The Hound of Heaven had pursued me and caught me—whether I liked it or not.

Kirsten Powers is a contributor to USA Today and a columnist for Newsweek/The Daily Beast. She is a Democratic commentator at Fox News.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/november/fox-news-highly-reluctant-jesus-follower-kirsten-powers.html?paging=off
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 06, 2013, 06:49:47 PM
Supreme Court wrestling with prayer at NY town's meetings
Published November 06, 2013
Associated Press

The Supreme Court is wrestling with the appropriate role for religion in government in a case involving prayers at the start of a New York town's council meetings.

The justices engaged in a lively give-and-take Wednesday that highlighted the sensitive nature of offering religious invocations in public proceedings that don't appeal to everyone and of governments' efforts to police the practice.

The court is weighing a federal appeals court ruling that said the Rochester suburb of Greece, N.Y., violated the Constitution because nearly every prayer in an 11-year span was overtly Christian.

The tenor of the argument indicated the justices would not agree with the appellate ruling. But it was not clear what decision they might come to instead.

Justice Elena Kagan summed up the difficult task before the court when she noted that some people believe that "every time the court gets involved, things get worse instead of better."

Greece is being backed by the Obama administration and many social and religious conservative groups in arguing that the court settled this issue 30 years ago when it held that an opening prayer is part of the nation's fabric and not a violation of the First Amendment. Some of those groups want the court to go further and get rid of legal rules that tend to rein in religious expression in the public sphere.

On the other side are the two town residents who sued over the prayers and the liberal interest groups that support them. Greece residents Susan Galloway and Linda Stephens say they and others who attend the meetings are a captive audience and should not be subjected to sectarian prayers.

At its broadest, the outcome could extend well beyond prayer and also affect holiday displays, aid to religious schools, Ten Commandments markers and memorial crosses. More narrowly, the case could serve as a test of the viability of the decision in Marsh v. Chambers, the 1983 case that said prayer in the Nebraska Legislature did not violate the First Amendment's clause barring laws "respecting an establishment of religion," known as the Establishment Clause.

The potentially decisive vote in the case belongs to Justice Anthony Kennedy, who did not seem satisfied with arguments made by lawyers for Greece and the administration on one side and for the Greece residents on the other.

On the one hand, Kennedy said he did not like the thought that government officials or judges would examine the content of the prayers to make sure they are not sectarian. "That involves the state very heavily in the censorship of prayers," Kennedy said.

On the other hand, he objected to the reliance by the town and the administration on the decision in Marsh.

All the while, Justice Stephen Breyer was trying out potential outcomes that recognized both the tradition of prayer and the rights of religious minorities and non-believers. "If all that was left in the case were questions of making a good-faith effort to include others, would you object to doing it?" Breyer asked Thomas Hungar, the Washington, D.C., lawyer who is representing the town.

Hungar said he did not know, but asserted that the town already has engaged in the outreach Breyer described.

In Greece, every meeting was opened with a Christian-oriented invocation from 1999 through 2007, and again from January 2009 through June 2010. In 2008, after Galloway and Stephens complained, four of 12 meetings were opened by non-Christians, including a Jewish layman, a Wiccan priestess and the chairman of the local Baha'i congregation.

The two residents filed suit and a trial court ruled in the town's favor, finding that the town did not intentionally exclude non-Christians. It also said that the content of the prayer was not an issue because there was no desire to proselytize or demean other faiths.

But a three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said that even with the high court's 1983 ruling, the practice of having one Christian prayer after another amounted to the town's endorsement of Christianity.

A decision is expected by late June.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/06/supreme-court-wrestling-with-prayer-at-ny-town-meetings/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on March 17, 2014, 08:13:19 PM
Time to kick those paranoid religious extremists out of public schools.

Buddhist Student, Religious Liberty Prevail In Louisiana


 The American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU of Louisiana have filed a federal lawsuit against a public school in Sabine Parish that harassed a non-Christian student and has a long history of proselytizing students and promoting religion. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of two parents, Scott and Sharon Lane, and their three children, including their son, C.C., who is a Buddhist of Thai heritage.

According to the complaint filed in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Louisiana, C.C enrolled in Negreet High School, which serves students in kindergarten through twelfth grade, earlier this year as a sixth-grader and quickly became the target of harassment by school staff. His science teacher, Rita Roark, repeatedly taught students that the Earth was created by God 6,000 years ago, that evolution is "impossible," and that the Bible is "100 percent true."

Roark also regularly features religious questions on her tests such as "ISN'T IT AMAZING WHAT THE _____________ HAS MADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" When C.C. did not write in Roark's expected answer, "LORD," she belittled him in front of the rest of the class. While studying other religions, Roark has told students that Buddhism is "stupid."

When Plaintiffs objected, Sabine Parish Superintendent, Sara Ebarb, told them that "this is the Bible belt." She suggested that C.C. should "change" his faith or transfer to another district school 25 miles away where, in her words, "there are more Asians." Ultimately, C.L.'s parents did transfer him to another school to protect him, but school officials at that school also unconstitutionally promote religion.

Beyond Roark's classroom, the school also regularly incorporates official Christian prayer into class and school events. School officials display religious iconography through hallways and classrooms, including a large portrait of Jesus Christ, and an electronic marquee in front of the school scrolls Bible verses as students enter the building.

The lawsuit asks the court to issue an order prohibiting the school district from continuing to promote religion or disparage Plaintiffs' faith and to require the district to reimburse the Lanes for the cost of transporting C.C. to another school.

Status: Victory! On March 14, 2014 a federal district court entered an order requiring the school district to refrain from unconstitutionally promoting or denigrating religion. The court’s order also mandates in-service training for school staff regarding their obligations under the First Amendment.

https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/lane-v-sabine-parish-school-board
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 05, 2014, 08:04:25 PM
Supreme Court upholds prayer at government meetings
Richard Wolf, USA TODAY 6:57 p.m. EDT May 5, 2014

WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court on Monday narrowly upheld the centuries-old tradition of offering prayers to open government meetings, even if the prayers are overwhelmingly Christian and citizens are encouraged to participate.

The 5-4 ruling, supported by the court's conservative justices and opposed by its liberals, was based in large part on the history of legislative prayer dating back to the Framers of the Constitution.

Defending a practice used by the town of Greece, N.Y., the majority ruled that opening local government meetings with sectarian prayers doesn't violate the Establishment Clause as long as no religion is advanced or disparaged, and residents aren't coerced.

The alternatives, the conservative justices said, would be worse: having government officials and courts "act as supervisors and censors of religious speech," or declaring all such prayers unconstitutional.

"As a practice that has long endured, legislative prayer has become part of our heritage and tradition, part of our expressive idiom, similar to the Pledge of Allegiance, inaugural prayer, or the recitation of 'God save the United States and this honorable court' at the opening of this court's sessions," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote.

Justice Elena Kagan wrote the principal dissent for the court's liberal bloc, arguing that the intimate setting of local government meetings, the participation of average citizens and the dominance of Christian prayer-givers put the policy out of bounds.

"When the citizens of this country approach their government, they do so only as Americans, not as members of one faith or another," Kagan said. "And that means that even in a partly legislative body, they should not confront government-sponsored worship that divides them along religious lines."

The long-awaited ruling came seven years after two women -- a Jew and an atheist -- took the town to court, and six months after oral arguments in November.

SEVEN YEARS IN COURT

The legal tussle began in 2007, following eight years of nothing but Christian prayers in the town of nearly 100,000 people outside Rochester. Susan Galloway and Linda Stephens took the board to federal court and won by contending that its prayers – often spiced with references to Jesus, Christ and the Holy Spirit – aligned the town with one religion.

Once the legal battle was joined, town officials canvassed widely for volunteer prayer-givers and added a Jewish layman, a Wiccan priestess and a member of the Baha'i faith to the mix.

The two women contended that the prayers in Greece were unconstitutional because they pressured those in attendance to participate. They noted that unlike federal and state government sessions, town board meetings are frequented by residents who must appear for everything from business permits to zoning changes.

While the court had upheld the practice of legislative prayer in the past, most recently in a 1983 case involving the Nebraska Legislature, the case of Town of Greece v. Galloway therefore presented the justices with a new twist: mostly Christian clergy delivering frequently sectarian prayers before an audience that often included average citizens with business to conduct.

In the end, five justices said those facts didn't make what the Greece Town Board did unconstitutional, while four others said they did.

"The First Amendment is not a majority rule, and government may not seek to define permissible categories of religious speech," Kennedy said. "Once it invites prayer into the public sphere, government must permit a prayer-giver to address his or her own God or gods as conscience dictates."

Not so, Kagan argued for the losing side. She said the town's prayers differed from those delivered to federal and state legislators about to undertake the people's business. In Greece, she said, sectarian prayers were delivered to "ordinary citizens" who might feel ostracized or vulnerable if they didn't participate.

"No one can fairly read the prayers from Greece's town meetings as anything other than explicitly Christian – constantly and exclusively so," Kagan said. "The prayers betray no understanding that the American community is today, as it long has been, a rich mosaic of religious faiths."

Instead of the existing policy, Kagan said the town board should follow the example of Congress' chaplains by giving clergy guidance about avoiding sectarian or divisive prayers.

But several justices were doubtful during oral arguments last year any prayer could satisfy everyone, leaving the court little option but to reiterate its support of legislative prayer or remove it entirely from government meetings – something they clearly did not want to do.

Justice Samuel Alito drove home that point in a separate concurrence Monday in which he called the liberals' dissent "quite niggling."

"Not only is there no historical support for the proposition that only generic prayer is allowed," Alito said, "but as our country has become more diverse, composing a prayer that is acceptable to all members of the community who hold religious beliefs has become harder and harder."

THREE DECADES OF CONTROVERSY

The court's 30-year-old precedent, Marsh v. Chambers, upheld the Nebraska Legislature's funding of a chaplain who delivered daily prayers. Chief Justice Warren Burger ruled then that such prayers were "part of the fabric of our society." The decision prohibited only those prayers that take sides by advancing or disparaging a particular religion.

Since Marsh, backers of more church-state separation had made modest gains. In 1984, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's "endorsement test" established that every government practice must be examined to determine whether it endorses one religion. In 1989, the court ruled that a Christmas crèche display on a courthouse staircase went too far by endorsing Christianity and brought forth O'Connor's "reasonable observer" test.

The current court agreed to consider the case following a federal appeals court's ruling against the town. Judge Guido Calabresi of the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals had said its actions "virtually ensured a Christian viewpoint" and featured a "steady drumbeat of often specifically sectarian Christian prayers."

The case hinged on these words from the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That has come to be known as the Establishment Clause.

The Obama administration came down forcefully on the town's side – most notably because both houses of Congress have opened with prayers since 1789. But the prayers delivered there these days are far less sectarian than those heard in churches, temples and synagogues.

Most state legislatures open their sessions with a prayer, nearly half of them with guidelines. Many county legislatures open meetings with a prayer, according to an informal survey by the National Association of Counties. National data on prayer practices at the city, town and village levels do not exist.

The Supreme Court cracked down on prayer in schools in the 1960s, ruling against Bible readings, the Lord's Prayer or an official state prayer.

In Lemon v. Kurtzman, a 1971 case involving religion in legislation, the high court devised what became known as the "Lemon test." Government action, it said, should have a secular purpose, cannot advance or inhibit religion and must avoid too much government entanglement with religion.

Then came Marsh, in which the court gave a green light to legislative prayer that does not advance or disparage any faith.

Kennedy said Monday's decision follows in that spirit.

"The inclusion of a brief, ceremonial prayer as part of a larger exercise in civic recognition suggests that its purpose and effect are to acknowledge religious leaders and the institutions they represent, rather than to exclude or coerce non-believers," he said.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/05/supreme-court-government-prayer-new-york/4481969/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 08, 2014, 03:02:09 PM
Atheist group renews suit regarding school prayer in Rankin County schools

 The Associated Press By The Associated Press
on May 07, 2014 at 7:27 PM, updated May 07, 2014 at 7:31 PM


 JACKSON, Miss. (AP) -- A student supported by an atheist group says the Rankin County school district is still violating a ban on school prayer.

The senior at Northwest Rankin High School, represented by the American Humanist Association, filed a contempt motion Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Jackson. The student says an April 17 districtwide honors program violated the district's November settlement of a lawsuit over Christian-themed assemblies at the school.

A district spokeswoman and a lawyer didn't respond to requests for comment.

In an affidavit, the student said the Rev. Rob Gill, pastor of St. Mark's United Methodist Church, gave an invocation at the honors program, meant to recognize all students in the district who scored above 22 on the ACT test.

The student said she felt pressured to participate in a prayer that she perceived as a reference to Easter and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The student said Rankin County Superintendent Lynn Weathersby and other officials took part.

"As a result of the defendants' actions surrounding the prayer at the awards ceremony, I felt incredibly embarrassed, humiliated and frustrated," states the 17-year-old student, identified only as M.B. in the complaint.

The student said she was also forced to attend the original assembly at Northwest Rankin that sparked the lawsuit.

The association says the district agreed to bar official prayer during the school day, citing a policy Rankin County adopted in July 2013 that states in part that "school activities conducted during instructional hours should neither advance, endorse or inhibit any religion; should be primarily for secular purposes and should not obligate or coerce any person into participation in a religious activity."

Monica Miller, a lawyer for the association, said the assembly took place during school hours and is covered by the consent decree. Miller said the association contends that any official prayer at a student activity is an unconstitutional promotion of religion, citing U.S. Supreme Court rulings.

That same high court ruled last week that organized prayer before government meetings was permissible.

A 2013 state law tried to create a way for Mississippi public school students to pray at football games, graduations and other school functions. But because the prayer in question wasn't delivered by a student, the law doesn't appear to apply.

The association asks U.S. District Judge Carlton Reeves to issue civil contempt fines of $1,000 apiece against the district and Northwest Rankin Principal Charles Frazier, giving the money to the student, and to threaten the district with a $20,000 fine for any future violation. The student also asked that Reeves make the district pay attorney fees. The association was awarded $15,000 in fees in the initial settlement.


http://blog.gulflive.com/mississippi-press-news/2014/05/atheist_group_renews_suit_rega.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 12, 2014, 07:43:39 PM
Another paranoid religious extremist.
He actually sounds a lot like some of the more pious posters here.


2nd-class status for nonChristians? A baby step toward theocracy

If supervisor Al Bedrosian has his way, only Christian prayers would be said to launch Roanoke County Board of Supervisors meetings.


By Dan Casey | The Roanoke Times

In the wake of Monday's 5-4 ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court allowing sectarian prayers as invocations during government meetings, Roanoke County Supervisor Al Bedrosian already is making some plans to change the county Board of Supervisors' nonsectarian prayer policy, though it's doubtful the board will go along.

If Bedrosian gets his way, only Christians could give the officials opening prayers. Jews, Hindus and followers of other faiths would be shut out, relegating them to second-class status.

Here are the juicy bits from a story by my colleagues Zach Crizer and Chase Purdy in today's paper:

"The freedom of religion doesn’t mean that every religion has to be heard,” said Bedrosian, who added that he is concerned about groups such as Wiccans and Satanists. “If we allow everything … where do you draw the line?”

. . . Bedrosian said he envisions a setup by which the supervisors would approve, individually, people from their districts to offer the opening prayer. That system would hold supervisors accountable to their districts, he added.

When asked if he would allow representatives from non-Christian faiths and non-faiths, including Jews, Muslims, atheists and others, the Hollins District supervisor said he likely would not.

. . .If a non-Christian wished to pray during a meeting under his idea for the prayer policy, Bedrosian said, he or she would be able to do so during the allotted time for citizen comment.

“I think America, pretty much from founding fathers on, I think we have to say more or less that we’re a Christian nation with Christian ideology,” Bedrosian said. “If we’re a Christian nation, then I would say that we need to move toward our Christian heritage.”

http://www.roanoke.com/news/columns_and_blogs/blogs/dan_casey/a-baby-step-toward-theocracy/article_bbe6a9fc-d51a-11e3-b520-0017a43b2370.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 19, 2014, 07:17:09 AM
Oh I doubt they offered any evidence.  I think they are a funny group.  Organized and lobbying based on a belief in nothing. 

That would be the naive view of it. I think the broader view is an enchroachment on their lives by religious people and their beliefs. So they organized to stave off the infringement. Right wrong or indifferent, that's likely the catalyst for their organization
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on May 19, 2014, 11:37:11 AM
That would be the naive view of it. I think the broader view is an enchroachment on their lives by religious people and their beliefs. So they organized to stave off the infringement. Right wrong or indifferent, that's likely the catalyst for their organization

So free grief counseling by priests and pastors offered to victims of violent crimes encroaches upon your life?  

Let's say your neighbor is raped and stabbed yet survives the attack and a reverend shows up at your neighbor's house or hospital to offer them guidance and counsel at no charge with no obligation whatsoever.  

How does that impact you?  

Short answer: It doesn't.

Oh, I'm sure there's some elaborate, "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon", nonsense labyrinth of disjointed, anti-theist, political agendas that goes from your neighbor's crime (that doesn't involve you in anyway) back full circle and illogically adjacent to an utter violation of your civil liberties LOL.

I'm guessing the Salvation Army holiday bell ringers at Walmart are also destroying your personal freedoms LOL?  Those bastards!!!  
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 30, 2014, 09:11:42 AM
So free grief counseling by priests and pastors offered to victims of violent crimes encroaches upon your life?  

Let's say your neighbor is raped and stabbed yet survives the attack and a reverend shows up at your neighbor's house or hospital to offer them guidance and counsel at no charge with no obligation whatsoever.  

How does that impact you?  

Short answer: It doesn't.

Oh, I'm sure there's some elaborate, "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon", nonsense labyrinth of disjointed, anti-theist, political agendas that goes from your neighbor's crime (that doesn't involve you in anyway) back full circle and illogically adjacent to an utter violation of your civil liberties LOL.

I'm guessing the Salvation Army holiday bell ringers at Walmart are also destroying your personal freedoms LOL?  Those bastards!!!  

1. Nope but it violates seperation of Church and State. We have trained grief counselors that visit crime victims and they don't spread the word of any religion, they are trained, educated and certified counselors.

2. That is very nice of the reverend to do that, however when a government entity sends the reverend, that's where I have a problem. Again, there are real counselors available for such instances

3. Slippery slope, government shouldn't be in the business of providing spritual or religious counseling

4. I can answer for myself thank you
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on May 30, 2014, 09:38:55 AM
1. Nope but it violates seperation of Church and State. We have trained grief counselors that visit crime victims and they don't spread the word of any religion, they are trained, educated and certified counselors.

2. That is very nice of the reverend to do that, however when a government entity sends the reverend, that's where I have a problem. Again, there are real counselors available for such instances

3. Slippery slope, government shouldn't be in the business of providing spritual or religious counseling

4. I can answer for myself thank you
Sorry, but a definite violation of church and state is specious and reaching.  

There is nothing unconstitutional about one person freely communicating their faith with another person.  There is something unconstitutional about a government telling a civilian that they can't do that....that's a violation of civil liberties.   Now, forcing someone to participate in a regular religious ceremony that is also unconstitutional.

Many force fit the slippery slope notion based upon their own agenda....it goes both ways.  Regardless, the victims in question are not civil authorities....they are individuals.  The term "state" does not automatically apply to the victim and the term "church" does not automatically apply to a pastor offering counseling.

Now, the presupposition tends to be that the reverend/pastor/priest is always sharing their faith in those moments.  Many "men of the cloth" have legitimate study and expertise in counseling that has nothing to do with the church, faith or theology.

So, in the future, if you happen to be the victim in an unforseen situation (I pray that isn't the case) and a priest comes to your home or hospital to offer counseling simply decline with a "no thank you".  Your rights and the priest's rights are both fully upheld.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 30, 2014, 11:33:07 AM
Sorry, but a definite violation of church and state is specious and reaching.  

There is nothing unconstitutional about one person freely communicating their faith with another person.  There is something unconstitutional about a government telling a civilian that they can't do that....that's a violation of civil liberties.   Now, forcing someone to participate in a regular religious ceremony that is also unconstitutional.

Many force fit the slippery slope notion based upon their own agenda....it goes both ways.  Regardless, the victims in question are not civil authorities....they are individuals.  The term "state" does not automatically apply to the victim and the term "church" does not automatically apply to a pastor offering counseling.

Now, the presupposition tends to be that the reverend/pastor/priest is always sharing their faith in those moments.  Many "men of the cloth" have legitimate study and expertise in counseling that has nothing to do with the church, faith or theology.

So, in the future, if you happen to be the victim in an unforseen situation (I pray that isn't the case) and a priest comes to your home or hospital to offer counseling simply decline with a "no thank you".  Your rights and the priest's rights are both fully upheld.

again, a priest happening to drop by verses a priest sent by the city of ________ is two different things...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on May 30, 2014, 12:09:39 PM
again, a priest happening to drop by verses a priest sent by the city of ________ is two different things...

I agree with you, but to my point these pastors/ministers/reverends/priests do have extensive experience and expertise in counseling.  Not all of course, but many.  The counseling service on behalf of the city can be completely unrelated to the church and not considered "church outreach".    Churches tie into other service organizations all the time and don't spread the gospel....they just perform the service.   

Again, the terms "church" and "state" are loosely assigned to different parties incorrectly.  A city government sending local church leadership who are skilled in counseling to assist victims of violent crimes at no charge to the victim or city is not a violation of anyone's civil liberties.   A secular, civil authority sending a local church to perform religious ceremonies of some sort would most likely violate the idea of separation of church and state.  Two separate entities can collaborate without violating people's civil liberties though. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 30, 2014, 02:02:19 PM
I agree with you, but to my point these pastors/ministers/reverends/priests do have extensive experience and expertise in counseling.  Not all of course, but many.  The counseling service on behalf of the city can be completely unrelated to the church and not considered "church outreach".    Churches tie into other service organizations all the time and don't spread the gospel....they just perform the service.   

Again, the terms "church" and "state" are loosely assigned to different parties incorrectly.  A city government sending local church leadership who are skilled in counseling to assist victims of violent crimes at no charge to the victim or city is not a violation of anyone's civil liberties.   A secular, civil authority sending a local church to perform religious ceremonies of some sort would most likely violate the idea of separation of church and state.  Two separate entities can collaborate without violating people's civil liberties though. 

Montgomery Police Department Chaplain E. Baxter Morris said the program offers an “evangelistic advance,” and said it gives him an opportunity to “share a word from Christ” to victims, AL.com reported.
.
.
. I have a problem with that
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 05, 2014, 09:28:16 AM
Nice.  And the paranoid anti-religous extremists meltdown.   :)

Missouri principal wows crowd, angers atheists with guarded 'God' references
By Joshua Rhett Miller
Published June 05, 2014
FoxNews.com

A Missouri high school principal who garnered thunderous applause and a starring role in a viral video for a commencement speech in which he repeatedly invoked God in ways to dodge First Amendment objections has atheists seeing red.

Lebanon High School Principal Kevin Lowery can be seen on a 3-minute YouTube clip reminding graduates that the nation’s motto of “In God We Trust” can be found on U.S. currency and in Francis Scott Key’s original version of “The Star-Spangled Banner.” Lowery also wryly noted during the May 23 commencement that even though “God is reflected in the very fabric” of the nation, it would be inappropriate to mention The Almighty at a secular ceremony.

“So while it would not be politically correct for us to have an official prayer this evening, I would like for us to have a moment of silence in honor of tonight’s graduates,” Lowery told students. “Thank you. And just in case you’re interested, during my moment of silence, I gave thanks to God for these great students, their parents, their teachers and for this community.”

“So while it would not be politically correct for us to have an official prayer this evening, I would like for us to have a moment of silence in honor of tonight’s graduates."
- Lebanon High School Principal Kevin Lowery
Thunderous applause followed Lowery’s statement and the video was closing in on 100,000 views.

"If you were "offended" by this..I'd have to ask you HOW you could be offended by someone praying for nothing but wonderful things for this student!" wrote one commenter. "He wasn't asking anyone to join a church, a religion or to leave one...he simply asked that they would be protected and blessed."

But dozens of others commenting on the video blasted Lowery, as did Dave Muscato, a spokesman for American Atheists.

“I find this extremely objectionable,” Muscato said. “I think it’s clear that Kevin Lowery violated the spirit of the First Amendment separations of religion and government. This was an underhanded and dishonorable way for him to forcibly inject his personal religious views onto his students and the others present and into his role as a government official.”

The Freedom From Religion Foundation also voiced concerns on Lowery’s speech, characterizing it as a “serious constitutional violation” in a letter to Lebanon School District Superintendent Duane Widhalm. District officials, meanwhile, told FoxNews.com they had no comment on Lowery’s speech.

“It is well settled that public schools may not advance, prefer or promote religion,” the letter reads. “The Supreme Court has routinely struck down prayers at school-sponsored events, including public school graduations.”

Lowery did not return requests for comment. But the high school principal, who has more than 1,700 followers on Twitter, thanked his students for the “special” ceremony on the social media platform, where some students referenced Lowery’s speech.

“My favorite part of LHS graduation is when @KevinGLowery ‘doesn't pray’ for the graduates,” Aaron Stewart posted. “We are blessed to have such a faithful leader!”

Another student, Sadie Ashton Staver, said she would miss the “best principal” in America.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/04/missouri-principal-wows-crowd-angers-atheists-with-guarded-god-references/

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on June 05, 2014, 11:31:23 AM
Montgomery Police Department Chaplain E. Baxter Morris said the program offers an “evangelistic advance,” and said it gives him an opportunity to “share a word from Christ” to victims, AL.com reported.
.
.
. I have a problem with that

Again that assumes that the "opportunity" is forced on the victim.  Every hospital chaplain I've ever seen (and I've seen several in action) always give the patient the option to pray or discuss matters of faith.  If the patient declines the chaplain moves on.....that simple.  

In the end you don't have anything to worry about because scripture clearly outlines that the world at large will adopt your position fully and people of faith will eventually have virtually no influence......the "sharing of the Christian faith" will be heavily ridiculed and mocked (way more than it is today) and believers will eventually lose their lives like never before in history.   Many believers will fall away from the faith when this begins in attempts to save their lives.  I believe we're on the precipice of this now.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on June 05, 2014, 07:49:48 PM
Montgomery Police Department Chaplain E. Baxter Morris said the program offers an “evangelistic advance,” and said it gives him an opportunity to “share a word from Christ” to victims, AL.com reported.
.
.
. I have a problem with that

Then if ever presented with such an offer, politely refuse it. Simple, huh?  I was asked in the hospital if I would care to have a chaplain visit me.  Asked, not forced.  Asked. I accepted and received visits from two of them.  We talked about a variety of subjects, not just faith.  Good people, good conversation.

Surely you don't have a problem with your just saying no, to them?  If they asked you if you wanted a meat dish for your meal, and you were a vegan, would you have a problem just saying "No thanks!  I'll have the veggie plate instead."  I hope not.

Don't look to be offended where no offence was intended. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 06, 2014, 09:26:23 AM
My Fellow Americans:

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keeness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt - June 6, 1944

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 14, 2014, 12:36:15 PM
School: We have a right to ban God
By Todd Starnes
Published July 11, 2014
FoxNews.com

A California school district says it will not apologize to a teenager who defied its orders and mentioned God in his graduation speech.

Attorneys representing the Brawley Union High School District have written a 10-page letter defending the school’s right not only to censor graduation speeches, but also to ban any speech that references God or Jesus.

“It is well established in the Ninth Circuit and California that a public school salutatorian has no constitutional right to lead a prayer or include sectarian or proselytizing content in his/her graduation speech,” reads a letter from the San Diego law firm of Atkinson, Andelson, Loya, Ruud and Romo.

Brooks Hamby was a victim of anti-Christian bigotry, and I hope Liberty Institute teaches the Brawley Union High School District a lesson it won’t forget.
Last month, 18-year-old Brooks Hamby made national headlines when he committed an act of civil disobedience by thanking Jesus in his salutatorian address. School administrators had redacted references to Jesus and the Christian faith in three previous versions of Hamby’s speech.

One administrator went so far as to redact every religious reference with a black marker – as if it were some sort of top-secret government document.

Liberty Institute, the law firm representing Hamby, has demanded that the school apologize for censoring the boy’s speech and that it guarantee future graduation speakers will not face censorship.

The school district, in the certified letter its attorneys sent to Liberty Institute, says that’s not going to happen. There will be no apology.

“The district was legally obligated to ensure prayers and other sectarian, proseltyzing content were omitted from Mr. Hamby’s speech,” the school’s attorneys wrote. “Censorship of the speech was necessary to avoid an Establishment Clause violation.”

In other words, the high-dollar attorneys are telling us the school district violated one constitutional amendment to avoid violating another.

The school district’s attorneys also said the California Constitution prohibits public school districts from endorsing religious speech at their graduation ceremonies.

“Mr. Hamby was not permitted to use his salutatory speech to lead his classmates in a sectarian prayer,” the attorneys wrote.

Instead, he was supposed to stand in front of his graduating class as a “representative example of the success of the school’s own educational mission,” the attorneys wrote, referencing a previous court case.

Are they trying to tell us the reason the district took offense was because Brooks Hamby thanks God for his success instead of the school district?

I spoke by telephone Thursday night with Hamby and his attorney, Jeremy Dys. Both were shocked by the tone, tenor and length of the school district’s retort.

“The school does not want to put this issue behind them,” Dys told me. “All options are on the table. Based on the amount of money it cost those attorneys to write that letter, I’d say the school district has a $10-20,000 down payment for a lawsuit.”

And Dys said if the school district is hankering for a legal fight – “we may be willing to oblige them.”

Hamby remains saddened and perplexed by how the school district treated him.

“I was really surprised the school would deny my speech not once, twice, but three times,” he told me. “I just wanted to say a few nice words and allow people to see the good news – which is the Gospel.”

After the district rejected those versions, Hamby wrote a fourth – just hours before the graduation ceremony. In that speech, he refused to water down his faith in Christ. He never received a reply from the district – so he decided to deliver that version.

“May the God of the Bible bless each and every one of you every day in the rest of your lives,” he told his fellow graduates.

That’s what led to the legal firestorm. That’s what led the school district to hire a high-powered law firm to bully this Christian teenager.

If you believe the school district’s version, Hamby turned his speech into a Billy Graham Crusade where he invited his fellow graduates to walk the aisle and convert to Christianity.

But that’s not what happened at all. This young man simply talked about the values that shaped and flavored his life – the values that carried him through the difficult days of high school.

According to the school district, Brooks Hamby broke the law.

“Mr. Hamby’s salutatorian speech was a sectarian invocation, which is not legally permitted in California or the Ninth Circuit,” the district’s attorneys wrote.

I’m surprised the principal didn’t take out a warrant and throw the kid in jail.

Hamby is not the first graduation speaker to have his Christian voice silenced – and I predict he won’t be the last. In my new book, “God Less America,” I write about other teenage Christians whose speeches were deemed inappropriate by government representatives.

Brooks Hamby was a victim of anti-Christian bigotry, and I hope Liberty Institute teaches the Brawley Union High School District a lesson it won’t forget.

Hamby is Stanford bound this fall. But I suspect the lessons he’s learned will flavor the rest of his life.

“I’m not an attorney, so I can’t speak on behalf of the law, but I think it should never be acceptable to silence students who mention the word God or Jesus,” he told me. “I know in my heart that kind of thing is not OK.”

Indeed, it is not.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/11/school-have-right-to-ban-god/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 04, 2014, 02:23:05 PM
Restaurant's 'Prayer Discount' Sparks Mix Of Praise, Anger
by SCOTT NEUMAN
August 01, 2014

When Jordan Smith got her tab after breakfast at Mary's Gourmet Diner in Winston-Salem, N.C., she was pleasantly surprised to find a 15 percent discount — for "praying in public."

Smith, on a business trip, tells HLN that she and her colleagues "prayed over our meal and the waitress came over at the end of the meal and said, 'Just so you know, we gave you a 15 percent discount for praying.' "

Smith then snapped a photo of her receipt, complete with a line item for "15% Praying in Public ($6.07)" and posted it to her Facebook page. Not surprisingly, it's gone viral.

Some people wondered if it was just another social media hoax, but Shama Blalock, a co-owner of the diner, confirmed to NPR that "It's for real; it does exist."

Blalock says it's something that she was moved to implement about 3 1/2 years ago. "We're very thankful for the attention we've received, but that's not what we were aiming at," she says.

Blalock says the discount is given to customers at the discretion of the wait staff.

On seeing the picture circulated by Smith, many responded like Arlene Wilson Focht, who wrote on the diner's Facebook page:

Arlene Wilson Focht‎Mary's Gourmet Diner
Owner at The Rosey Posey · August 1 at 5:45am ·
Thanks, Mary's Gourmet Diner, for giving 15% off to people who pray for their food. The Lord deserves our thanksIf I'm ever in WS, NC I'll be sure to stop in.

But others were more critical. Dave Moore was among those who questioned whether the restaurant would give the same discount to people who offered public prayers that weren't of the Christian variety:

Dave Moore‎Mary's Gourmet Diner
34 followers · July 31 at 3:28pm · Tucson, AZ ·
Prayer discounts? Do you give prayer discounts to people who aren't of your religion? like Sikh's or Hindus or Muslims or Jews?

Several others noted their interpretation that praying in public is frowned upon in the New Testament passage Matthew 6:5:

Mark Malone‎Mary's Gourmet Diner
Works at None of your business · August 1 at 12:46am ·
Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

And some people wondered aloud if the restaurant's practice amounts to discrimination. The Department of Justice says that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination based on religion in a public accommodation, such as a restaurant. Whether the diner is in violation isn't immediately clear.

We put in a call to the DOJ for clarification and will update this post if we hear back.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 10, 2014, 12:20:58 AM
Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go
Published August 08, 2014
Associated Press

A federal judge on Thursday ruled that a New Mexico city must remove a monument inscribed with the Ten Commandments from the lawn in front of Bloomfield City Hall.

Senior U.S. District Judge James A. Parker said in his ruling in a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union that the monument amounts to government speech and has the "principal effect of endorsing religion."

Because of the context and history surrounding the granite monument, Parker said Bloomfield clearly violated the First Amendment's Establishment Clause. He gave a Sept. 10 deadline for its removal.

The suit was filed in 2012 on behalf of two Bloomfield residents who practice the Wiccan religion.

Peter Simonson, ACLU of New Mexico executive director, called the decision a victory for protection against government-supported religion.

"We firmly support the right of individuals, religious groups, and community associations to publicly display religious monuments, but the government should not be in the business of picking which sets of religious beliefs belong at City Hall," Simonson said Friday.

According to previous court testimony, plaintiff Jane Felix said the display "says that anybody who doesn't agree with this monument on city grounds is an outsider."

"It has no place on City Hall property," Felix said in March.

City attorneys say private individuals erected and paid for the monument under a 2007 city resolution. That resolution allows people to erect historical monuments of their choosing.

Bloomfield Mayor Scott Eckstein said he was surprised the judge would rule against "a historical document."

"The intent from the beginning was that the lawn was going to be used for historical purposes, and that's what the council voted on," Eckstein told the Daily Times (http://bit.ly/XMgAqu).

The city has 30 days to file an appeal. City attorney Ryan Lane said he will review the opinion and tell the city council if there is basis for one.

The 6-foot-tall monument was erected in July 2011 by a former city councilor and weighs 3,000 pounds.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/08/judge-rules-ten-commandments-monument-must-go
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 20, 2014, 08:33:30 PM
Brevard County commissioners refuse to recognize atheist invocations

 By Dan Billow
6:01 PM EDT Aug 19, 2014

Atheists demanded the right to give an invocation at the beginning of a Brevard County Commission meeting on Tuesday.

A debate over invocations quickly turned up the temperature at the Brevard County Commission.

"For you to say that Christianity isn't under attack, I'd like you to look over at Iraq right now and let me know if Christianity's not under attack," said Brevard County Commissioner Andy Anderson. 

David Williamson of the Central Florida Freethought Community wears an A for "atheist" on his lapel.

"The supreme court specifically named non-believers as someone who should be included. And in this case, we've asked to be included," Williamson said.

What is an atheist invocation? Same thing a minister would pray for.

A sample atheist invocation reads, "We need only look to each other for guidance, and work together to overcome any challenges we may face."

Commissioners said unanimously they don't want to change a policy that allows individual commissioners to select the invocation-givers from a pool of applicants, who are mostly Christian ministers and Jewish rabbis.

That allows them to pass on atheist applicants.

"It's a slap in the face to be told, specifically, you cannot participate," Williamson said.

Williamson indicated his group may seek a court order.

http://www.wesh.com/news/brevard-county-commissioners-refuse-to-recognize-atheist-invocations/27617706
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 04, 2014, 01:16:48 PM
Prayer for injured teen sparks atheist outrage
By Todd Starnes
Published August 28, 2014
FoxNews.com

The injured player was on the ground being tended to by trainers and coaches.

So the Seminole High School football team did what many football teams do. The teenage boys took a knee, bowed their heads and prayed for their injured teammate.

But that simple act of compassion and humanity in Sanford, Florida sparked outrage from the Freedom From Religion Foundation – a group of perpetually offended atheists from Wisconsin.
An FFRF attorney fired off a letter to the superintendent of Seminole County Public Schools – accusing them of having an adult lead the prayer for the injured child.

It truly takes a special kind of evil to threaten Americans because they prayed over an injured child.
A school district spokesman told me the injured child, who is the son of the team’s head coach, has since rejoined the team.

“It is our information and understanding that Seminole High School (is) allowing an adult, a local pastor, to act as a ‘volunteer chaplain’ for the football team,” FFRF attorney Andrew Seidel wrote.

The attorney said the school cannot “allow a non-school adult access to the children in its charge, and certainly cannot grant that access to a pastor seeking to organize prayer for the students.”

The FFRF told the school district to “refrain from having a ‘volunteer team chaplain’ at Seminole High School.

The school district said the prayer was instigated by students and denied that a chaplain prayed with the team. School spokesman Mike Blasewitz told MyNews13.com that the school doesn’t even have a team chaplain, contrary to the FFRF’s allegations.

“There is nothing to cease and desist because our behavior was within the guidelines in the first place,” he told television station WFTV. “No adults in the photo, no adults participating, no adults leading it.”

Seidel told me in a written statement that he’s satisfied with the school’s response – and they now consider the matter closed.

“FFRF is very pleased with central Florida's new-found commitment to upholding the First Amendment and protecting the rights of conscience of all students, not just Christians,” he said.
Parents, meanwhile, are a bit perturbed with the atheist bullying.

“There are a lot more important issues going on in the world than worrying about kids praying at a game,” parent Andre Collins told ClickOrlando.com. “We live in a country where we’re free to do what we want to do.”

Barbara Frase has a grandson on the football team. She could not believe the atheists would call out the kids for praying.

“Come on, let’s get real,” she told ClickOrlando.com.

Seminole County is not the first school district targeted by these rabid atheists – and they won’t be the last. Earlier this week, I exposed the Christian cleansing underway in Orange County, Florida public schools.

But it truly takes a special kind of evil to threaten Americans because they prayed over an injured child.

Heaven help us all.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/08/28/prayer-for-injured-teen-sparks-atheist-outrage/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on September 05, 2014, 03:46:35 AM
"perpetually offended atheists"....that made me chuckle.

Apparently this Wisconsin group enjoys its perpetual state of offense so much that it fabricates reasons to remain in it.

This isn't atheism, this is anti-theism.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on September 05, 2014, 07:52:02 AM
"perpetually offended atheists"....that made me chuckle.

Apparently this Wisconsin group enjoys its perpetual state of offense so much that it fabricates reasons to remain in it.

This isn't atheism, this is anti-theism.



It's because these downtrodden atheists are just like others (read- libtards) of their kind.  They look for the "offensive" everywhere but in a mirror.

To hell with them and their pussified mentality.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on September 06, 2014, 02:06:28 PM
Group: Airman denied reenlistment for refusing to say 'so help me God'

Sep. 4, 2014 - 06:00AM
By Stephen Losey


An atheist airman at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada was denied reenlistment last month for refusing to take an oath containing “so help me God,” the American Humanist Association said Thursday.

And in a Sept. 2 letter to the inspectors general for the Air Force and Creech, Monica Miller, an attorney with the AHA’s Apignani Humanist Legal Center, said the airman should be allowed to reenlist without having to swear to a deity, and instead given a secular oath. Miller said the AHA is prepared to sue if the airman is not allowed to reenlist.

According to the AHA, the unnamed airman was told Aug. 25 that the Air Force would not accept his contract because he had crossed out the phrase “so help me God.” The airman was told his only options were to sign the religious oath section of the contract without adjustment and recite an oath concluding with “so help me God,” or leave the Air Force, the AHA said.

That is unconstitutional and unacceptable, the AHA said.

“The government cannot compel a nonbeliever to take an oath that affirms the existence of a supreme being,” Miller said. “Numerous cases affirm that atheists have the right to omit theistic language from enlistment or reenlistment contracts.”

Creech officials referred inquiries to Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada. Officials at Nellis referred questions to Air Force public affairs officers at the Pentagon, who had not confirmed the incident by Thursday night.

The AHA’s letter also called attention to a quiet update last year of Air Force rules governing reenlistments, which now require all airmen to swear an oath to God.

Air Force Instruction 36-2606 spells out the active-duty oath of enlistment, which all airmen must take when they enlist or reenlist and ends with “so help me God.” The old version of that AFI included an exception: “Note: Airmen may omit the words ‘so help me God,’ if desired for personal reasons.”

That language was dropped in an Oct. 30, 2013, update to the AFI. The relevant section of that AFI now only lists the active-duty oath of enlistment, without giving airmen any option to choose not to swear an oath to a deity.

“Reciting ‘So help me God’ in the reenlistment and commissioning oaths is a statutory requirement under Title 10 USC 502,” Air Force spokeswoman Rose Richeson said Thursday. AFI 36-2606 “is consistent with the language mandated in 10 USC 502. Paragraph 5.6 [and] was changed in October 2013 to reflect the aforementioned statutory requirement and airmen are no longer authorized to omit the words ‘So help me God.’ ”

The Air Force said it cannot change its AFI to make “so help me God” optional unless Congress changes the statute mandating it.

Miller pointed out that Article VI of the Constitution prohibits requiring religious tests to hold an office or public trust.

“Forcing [the airman] to swear to a supreme being as a condition of his reenlistment is tantamount to a ‘religious test’ and is therefore violative of this constitutional provision as well,” Miller said.

Miller also said that swearing an oath the airman does not believe in would be dishonest.

“This airman shows integrity, commitment to the nation, and respect for religion in standing firm for a secular oath that reflects his true values and intentions,” said Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers and a board member of the AHA.


http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140904/NEWS05/309040066/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on September 08, 2014, 08:26:17 AM
Group: Airman denied reenlistment for refusing to say 'so help me God'

Sep. 4, 2014 - 06:00AM
By Stephen Losey


An atheist airman at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada was denied reenlistment last month for refusing to take an oath containing “so help me God,” the American Humanist Association said Thursday.

And in a Sept. 2 letter to the inspectors general for the Air Force and Creech, Monica Miller, an attorney with the AHA’s Apignani Humanist Legal Center, said the airman should be allowed to reenlist without having to swear to a deity, and instead given a secular oath. Miller said the AHA is prepared to sue if the airman is not allowed to reenlist.

According to the AHA, the unnamed airman was told Aug. 25 that the Air Force would not accept his contract because he had crossed out the phrase “so help me God.” The airman was told his only options were to sign the religious oath section of the contract without adjustment and recite an oath concluding with “so help me God,” or leave the Air Force, the AHA said.

That is unconstitutional and unacceptable, the AHA said.

“The government cannot compel a nonbeliever to take an oath that affirms the existence of a supreme being,” Miller said. “Numerous cases affirm that atheists have the right to omit theistic language from enlistment or reenlistment contracts.”

Creech officials referred inquiries to Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada. Officials at Nellis referred questions to Air Force public affairs officers at the Pentagon, who had not confirmed the incident by Thursday night.

The AHA’s letter also called attention to a quiet update last year of Air Force rules governing reenlistments, which now require all airmen to swear an oath to God.

Air Force Instruction 36-2606 spells out the active-duty oath of enlistment, which all airmen must take when they enlist or reenlist and ends with “so help me God.” The old version of that AFI included an exception: “Note: Airmen may omit the words ‘so help me God,’ if desired for personal reasons.”

That language was dropped in an Oct. 30, 2013, update to the AFI. The relevant section of that AFI now only lists the active-duty oath of enlistment, without giving airmen any option to choose not to swear an oath to a deity.

“Reciting ‘So help me God’ in the reenlistment and commissioning oaths is a statutory requirement under Title 10 USC 502,” Air Force spokeswoman Rose Richeson said Thursday. AFI 36-2606 “is consistent with the language mandated in 10 USC 502. Paragraph 5.6 [and] was changed in October 2013 to reflect the aforementioned statutory requirement and airmen are no longer authorized to omit the words ‘So help me God.’ ”

The Air Force said it cannot change its AFI to make “so help me God” optional unless Congress changes the statute mandating it.

Miller pointed out that Article VI of the Constitution prohibits requiring religious tests to hold an office or public trust.

“Forcing [the airman] to swear to a supreme being as a condition of his reenlistment is tantamount to a ‘religious test’ and is therefore violative of this constitutional provision as well,” Miller said.

Miller also said that swearing an oath the airman does not believe in would be dishonest.

“This airman shows integrity, commitment to the nation, and respect for religion in standing firm for a secular oath that reflects his true values and intentions,” said Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers and a board member of the AHA.


http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140904/NEWS05/309040066/

People have the God-given ability to deny God as much as they want.   Folks in US have no right to force another to accept or reject God.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on September 09, 2014, 01:13:55 PM
People have the God-given ability to deny God as much as they want.  

How profound. ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on September 09, 2014, 02:24:22 PM
How profound. ::)

Always glad to help, but sounds like you stumbled on that new thing called "sarcasm".
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on September 17, 2014, 08:16:27 PM
Finally some common sense instead of enforcing the outrageous demands of paranoid religious extremists.

AF to change instructions for oaths
/ Published September 17, 2014

WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- The Air Force has instructed force support offices across the service to allow both enlisted members and officers to omit the words “So help me God” from enlistment and officer appointment oaths if an Airman chooses.

In response to concerns raised by Airmen, the Department of the Air Force requested an opinion from the Department of Defense General Counsel addressing the legal parameters of the oath. The resulting opinion concluded that an individual may strike or omit the words “So help me God” from an enlistment or appointment oath if preferred.

“We take any instance in which Airmen report concerns regarding religious freedom seriously,” said Secretary of the Air Force Deborah Lee James. “We are making the appropriate adjustments to ensure our Airmen's rights are protected.”

The Air Force will be updating the instructions for both enlisted and commissioned Airmen to reflect these changes in the coming weeks, but the policy change is effective now. Airmen who choose to omit the words 'So help me God' from enlistment and officer appointment oaths may do so.

The language in previous instructions was based on an Air Force legal interpretation of 10 U.S.C. 502, 5 U.S.C. 3331 and Title 32, which contain the oaths of office.

The Air Force requested the review following a ceremony at Creech Air Force Base, Nevada, in which an enlisted Airman struck out the words, “So help me God” on the Department of Defense Form 4 and did not include them in his verbal oath. The Airman's unit was unable to process his paperwork due to the guidance in Air Force Instruction 36-2606, Reenlistment in the United States Air Force, which prohibited any omissions. Now that the Department of Defense General Counsel has provided an opinion, the Airman’s enlistment paperwork will be processed to completion.


http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/497535/af-to-change-instructions-for-oaths.aspx
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on September 18, 2014, 07:49:50 AM
Finally some common sense instead of enforcing the outrageous demands of paranoid religious extremists.


Theists are so dumb!  Can I get a "what what"?!!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 23, 2014, 09:57:56 AM

More Americans see religion’s influence waning, want bigger role in politics: Pew poll
By Mary Wisniewski
SEPTEMBER 23, 2014

Nearly three-quarters of the public think religion is losing influence in American life and a growing number want religion to play more of a role in politics, according to a poll released on Monday.

The share of Americans who say churches and other houses of worship should express their views on social and political issues has gone up 6 percentage points since the 2010 midterm elections, to 49 percent from 43 percent, the Pew Research Center survey found.

Also, a growing minority of Americans, up to 32 percent from 22 percent in 2002, think churches should endorse candidates for political office, the poll found.

Overall, it showed 72 percent of Americans say religion is losing influence in the country, up 5 points from 2010.

“Some of this might be in reaction, perhaps, to the perception that religion is losing influence,” said Jessica Hamar Martinez, a research associate for Pew.

The poll also found that a declining share of Americans see the Obama administration as friendly toward religion, to 30 percent from 37 percent in 2009.

The belief that the administration is unfriendly to religion rose by 19 percentage points since 2009 among both white evangelical Christians and white Catholics, the poll found. Leaders from both these groups have been vocal opponents of the Affordable Care Act’s contraception mandate, which they say restricts religious liberty.

The poll also found that nearly half, or 47 percent, of U.S. adults, think that businesses, such as caterers and florists, should be allowed to reject same-sex couples as customers if the businesses have religious objections to serving them.

The survey questioned 2,002 U.S. adults between Sept. 2 and Sept. 9, and has a margin of error of plus or minus 2.5 percentage points.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2014/09/23/more-americans-see-religions-influence-waning-want-bigger-role-in-politics-pew-poll/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on November 18, 2014, 09:12:02 PM
Orange County School Board moves to change policy to keep Satanist coloring book out of schools

By Lauren Roth, Orlando Sentinel
November 13, 2014

Worried about facing national ridicule if a Satanic group is allowed to give out coloring books to children, the Orange County School Board moved Thursday toward preventing any outside group from distributing religious materials on campus.

The current policy has allowed groups to distribute Bibles and even atheist materials at district high schools in recent years.

The board discussed the issue during a workshop Thursday. The earliest it could vote to change the policy would be late January or early February, officials said.

"This really has, frankly, gotten out of hand," said chairman Bill Sublette. "I think we've seen a group or groups take advantage of the open forum we've had."

But a spokesman for The Satanic Temple, the group the group that wants to give out coloring books featuring cartoon children performing Satanic rituals and drawing pentagrams in school, said it is the School Board that is acting in bad faith.

"It strongly implies they never intended to have a plurality of voices," said Doug Mesner, co-founder and spokesman for The Satanic Temple, who also goes by the pseudonym Lucien Greaves.

An evangelical group called World Changers of Florida has given out Bibles in Orange schools three times.

"We're looking forward to doing it again," said World Changers Vice President Greg Harper. The group has purchased materials and is gathering volunteers to give out the New International Version in 18 district high schools on Jan. 16, he said.

However, district counsel Woody Rodriguez said the Satanists are the only group to have submitted a request.

Harper said he considers the possible policy change an attack on Christians.

"They seem to be moving against the interests of a large part of the community," he said, likening it to the district's August decision to ban football chaplains at schools. "The Bible will open somebody's heart, somebody's mind, and cause them to pursue answers."

Board member Christine Moore also seemed to struggle with the effect of a policy change on Christian groups. "Everyone's upset about the Satanists and the atheists coming,'' she said.

But another group involved in the debate sees an upside.

"It's a bit of a relief," said David Williamson of the Central Florida Freethought Community. His group distributed atheist materials in 2013 as a protest against Bible distributions.

Rodriguez said the district was bound by the terms of a federal consent decree that required Collier County schools to allow the same group to give out Bibles.

"Given that there's a potential change in the policy, we won't be allowing distribution," he said. "We're going to wait."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/education/os-satanic-pamphlets-board-reacts-20141113-story.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on November 19, 2014, 05:56:27 AM
after Skeletor posts I always picture the following:

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on November 19, 2014, 06:32:29 PM
How profound. ::)

Don't be such a dicklet, mkay?

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 03, 2014, 10:33:05 AM
after Skeletor posts I always picture the following:



 ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 03, 2014, 10:34:30 AM
Why do atheists have a PR director?? 

American Atheists PR Director Says He's Becoming a Woman, Transition Will Be Slow
BY STOYAN ZAIMOV , CHRISTIAN POST REPORTER
November 18, 2014

(http://images.christianpost.com/full/78480/dave-muscato-r-participating-in-a-religious-debate-in-a-video-posted-on-april-20-2012.jpg)
Dave Muscato (R) participating in a religious debate in a video posted on April 20, 2012.

Dave Muscato, the public relations director for American Atheists, has announced that he'll be transitioning into a transgender woman in the near future, and has chosen the name Danielle as a new identity.

"I consider my gender identity to be personal and, despite my passion for PR, don't intend to do much in the way of interviews about my personal gender identity if I can help it. I fully support intersectionality and working together with LGBTQ activists on mutual goals, but I'm first and foremost an atheist activist, and that hasn't changed," Muscato wrote in a blog post on Monday for The Friendly Atheist.

"There are many other people who are significantly more educated about trans activism than I am and who are already doing great work in that area. I support them and obviously have an interest in their success, but it's not my area of expertise. Exposing the harms that religion causes and making the world a better place for atheists will always be my passion."

Muscato noted that she's (formerly he) grateful for the full support of American Atheists President David Silverman and Managing Director Amanda Knief, as well as other co-workers.

Muscato added that gender identity and gender expression don't always go hand-in-hand.

"While I have identified internally as a woman for a long time, for now, I will be presenting more-or-less as a man; that is, I will continue to wear mostly traditional men's clothing, speak in my natural lower voice, and so on," the American Atheists public relations director wrote.

"Transitioning is a slow, painful, and expensive process and can take many months to several years. As I begin to take bigger steps to change my appearance, I will also begin dressing differently and changing other aspects of my gender expression.

American Atheists, one of the largest secular organizations in the U.S., launched the world's first ever TV channel dedicated exclusively to atheism earlier this year.

"Atheist TV," as the channel is called, is shown through Internet-streaming service Roku 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and has partnered with other notable atheist groups, such as the Richard Dawkins Foundation.

"There's a glut of religious TV programming out there, from televangelists to Christmas specials," Muscato told New York Daily News in May. "But there's no atheist channel. We wanted to fill that void. ... We'll have shows about philosophy, science, history — a critical examination of the facts."

http://www.christianpost.com/news/american-atheists-public-relations-director-announces-transition-into-transgender-woman-129855/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 06, 2015, 11:04:44 AM
Pew: Christians Make Up 92 Percent of New Congress
Tuesday, 06 Jan 2015
By Jason Devaney

More than 90 percent of the new Congress is Christian, a 2 percent increase from the previous Congress.

The Pew Research Center reports that 92 percent of the 114th Congress is made up of Christians, a figure dominated by Protestants at 57 percent. Thirty-one percent of those Christians are Catholic.

Pew claims those numbers are higher than the American average; 49 percent of American adults are Protestant, according to the data, while 22 percent are Catholic.

Twenty percent of Americans say they are not affiliated with any religion, while that number falls to just 0.2 percent in Congress. The only lawmaker on Capitol Hill without a religious affiliation is Rep. Kyrsten Sinema, D-Arizona, according to Pew.

Fifteen percent of Congress is Baptist, while another 8 percent is either Methodist or Anglican/Episcopal. Presbyterians make up 7 percent of the 535 lawmakers in the House and Senate.

Five percent of Congress is Jewish, higher than the nationwide figure of 2 percent. Seven members are ordained ministers.

Of the 301 Republicans in Congress, only one of them — freshman Rep. Lee Zeldin of New York — is not Christian. Zeldin is Jewish. Sixty-seven percent of the GOP Congressmen are Protestant, while 27 percent are Catholic. Five percent are Mormon.

Forty-four percent of the 234 Democratic Congressmen are Protestant, 35 percent are Catholic, and 12 percent are Jewish. There are two Mormons, two Buddhists, two Muslims, and one Hindu.

Meanwhile, Pew reported in September that 72 percent of Americans think religion is losing influence. But the figures did show that 78 percent of Americans still claim to be Christian.

Nearly half of Americans, on the other hand, would like to see more religion in the world of politics, according to the Pew data.

http://www.Newsmax.com/Newsfront/congress-christians-protestants-religion/2015/01/06/id/616640/#ixzz3O4NdUk00
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on January 06, 2015, 11:32:32 AM
Why do atheists have a PR director??  

American Atheists PR Director Says He's Becoming a Woman, Transition Will Be Slow
BY STOYAN ZAIMOV , CHRISTIAN POST REPORTER
November 18, 2014

(http://images.christianpost.com/full/78480/dave-muscato-r-participating-in-a-religious-debate-in-a-video-posted-on-april-20-2012.jpg)
Dave Muscato (R) participating in a religious debate in a video posted on April 20, 2012.

Dave Muscato, the public relations director for American Atheists, has announced that he'll be transitioning into a transgender woman in the near future, and has chosen the name Danielle as a new identity.

"I consider my gender identity to be personal and, despite my passion for PR, don't intend to do much in the way of interviews about my personal gender identity if I can help it. I fully support intersectionality and working together with LGBTQ activists on mutual goals, but I'm first and foremost an atheist activist, and that hasn't changed," Muscato wrote in a blog post on Monday for The Friendly Atheist.

"There are many other people who are significantly more educated about trans activism than I am and who are already doing great work in that area. I support them and obviously have an interest in their success, but it's not my area of expertise. Exposing the harms that religion causes and making the world a better place for atheists will always be my passion."

Muscato noted that she's (formerly he) grateful for the full support of American Atheists President David Silverman and Managing Director Amanda Knief, as well as other co-workers.

Muscato added that gender identity and gender expression don't always go hand-in-hand.

"While I have identified internally as a woman for a long time, for now, I will be presenting more-or-less as a man; that is, I will continue to wear mostly traditional men's clothing, speak in my natural lower voice, and so on," the American Atheists public relations director wrote.

"Transitioning is a slow, painful, and expensive process and can take many months to several years. As I begin to take bigger steps to change my appearance, I will also begin dressing differently and changing other aspects of my gender expression.

American Atheists, one of the largest secular organizations in the U.S., launched the world's first ever TV channel dedicated exclusively to atheism earlier this year.

"Atheist TV," as the channel is called, is shown through Internet-streaming service Roku 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and has partnered with other notable atheist groups, such as the Richard Dawkins Foundation.

"There's a glut of religious TV programming out there, from televangelists to Christmas specials," Muscato told New York Daily News in May. "But there's no atheist channel. We wanted to fill that void. ... We'll have shows about philosophy, science, history — a critical examination of the facts."

http://www.christianpost.com/news/american-atheists-public-relations-director-announces-transition-into-transgender-woman-129855/

all the best to Danielle

"Convince me your religion is true" LOL!! 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 25, 2015, 03:54:08 PM
Survey: Nearly 92% of Congress is Christian
By Dan Merica, CNN
Mon January 5, 2015

Washington (CNN)The men and women of the 114th Congress, despite being bitterly divided and partisan, almost universally share one thing in common: Their faith.

Nearly 92% of Congress -- or 491 of the 535 members -- identifies as Christian, according to a study by Pew Research's Religion & Public Life Project. That number is slightly up from 90% in the 113th Congress and continues a trend where the percentage of Christians and Jews in Congress outpaces their national average.

Though Christians dominate both parties, Democrats are more religiously diverse than Republicans. Of the 301 Republicans in the 114th Congress, Jewish freshman Rep. Lee Zeldin of New York is the only non-Christian.

A large majority of Democrats in Congress (80%) are Christian, with 44% Protestant, 35% Catholic and 1% Mormon. But unlike Republicans, Democrats in Congress are 12% Jewish and have two Buddhist, two Muslims, one Hindu and one unaffiliated member.

"You could say that the religious diversity in Congress is concentrated on the Democratic side," said Alan Cooperman, director of religious research at Pew. "The vast majority of the Jews, all of the Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus in Congress and the one unaffiliated member are all on the Democratic side."

Congress, the most representative and responsive branch of the federal government, has seen some aspects of their religious affiliation mirror nationwide trends.

For example, as the country has grown more religiously diverse over the last 50 years, so has Congress. Only 3% of the 87th Congress (1961-1962), according to Pew, was non-Christian. Today, that number has roughly tripled to 6%.

What's more, there has been a noticeable decline in Protestants that mirrors nationwide trends. In 1961, 75% of Congress and roughly 2/two-thirds of the country identified as Protestant. Fifty-seven percent of the 114th Congress is Protestant, while 49% of the country identifies as such today.

One area where nationwide trends have not been reflected in Congress is with the religiously unaffiliated, the most underrepresented in the country.

Though 20% of the country does not identify with a faith, only one member of Congress -- Rep. Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona -- publicly identifies as such.

Cooperman said the under representation of unaffiliated Americans might be a political decision by members of Congress.

"One of the things we have seen in our surveys is that the American public says one thing they like to see in candidates for office is strong religious beliefs," said Cooperman, who noted that when Pew asked voters what qualities impact their vote, the most negative attribute was someone who doesn't believe in God.

"On the whole, American adults tend to say that they do want strong religious beliefs in candidates and they tend to say that they would be less likely to vote for someone who says they do not believe in God," he added. "Candidates are reflecting the views of the public when they do tend to affiliate with a religious group."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/05/politics/religious-survey-congress/index.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 31, 2015, 09:42:03 AM
Survey: Nearly 92% of Congress is Christian
By Dan Merica, CNN
Mon January 5, 2015

Washington (CNN)The men and women of the 114th Congress, despite being bitterly divided and partisan, almost universally share one thing in common: Their faith.

Nearly 92% of Congress -- or 491 of the 535 members -- identifies as Christian, according to a study by Pew Research's Religion & Public Life Project. That number is slightly up from 90% in the 113th Congress and continues a trend where the percentage of Christians and Jews in Congress outpaces their national average.

Though Christians dominate both parties, Democrats are more religiously diverse than Republicans. Of the 301 Republicans in the 114th Congress, Jewish freshman Rep. Lee Zeldin of New York is the only non-Christian.

A large majority of Democrats in Congress (80%) are Christian, with 44% Protestant, 35% Catholic and 1% Mormon. But unlike Republicans, Democrats in Congress are 12% Jewish and have two Buddhist, two Muslims, one Hindu and one unaffiliated member.

"You could say that the religious diversity in Congress is concentrated on the Democratic side," said Alan Cooperman, director of religious research at Pew. "The vast majority of the Jews, all of the Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus in Congress and the one unaffiliated member are all on the Democratic side."

Congress, the most representative and responsive branch of the federal government, has seen some aspects of their religious affiliation mirror nationwide trends.

For example, as the country has grown more religiously diverse over the last 50 years, so has Congress. Only 3% of the 87th Congress (1961-1962), according to Pew, was non-Christian. Today, that number has roughly tripled to 6%.

What's more, there has been a noticeable decline in Protestants that mirrors nationwide trends. In 1961, 75% of Congress and roughly 2/two-thirds of the country identified as Protestant. Fifty-seven percent of the 114th Congress is Protestant, while 49% of the country identifies as such today.

One area where nationwide trends have not been reflected in Congress is with the religiously unaffiliated, the most underrepresented in the country.

Though 20% of the country does not identify with a faith, only one member of Congress -- Rep. Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona -- publicly identifies as such.

Cooperman said the under representation of unaffiliated Americans might be a political decision by members of Congress.

"One of the things we have seen in our surveys is that the American public says one thing they like to see in candidates for office is strong religious beliefs," said Cooperman, who noted that when Pew asked voters what qualities impact their vote, the most negative attribute was someone who doesn't believe in God.

"On the whole, American adults tend to say that they do want strong religious beliefs in candidates and they tend to say that they would be less likely to vote for someone who says they do not believe in God," he added. "Candidates are reflecting the views of the public when they do tend to affiliate with a religious group."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/05/politics/religious-survey-congress/index.html

Doesn't surprise me at all...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 09, 2015, 05:44:39 PM
Doesn't surprise me at all...

Me either.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 29, 2016, 01:59:20 PM
Worried Enough to Pray
February 29, 2016   

Last week’s blog struck a nerve. I wrote a piece entitled “Decency for President.” The premise was a simple one. Shouldn’t a presidential candidate who claims to be Christian talk like one? When a candidate waves a Bible in one speech and calls a reporter “bimbo” in the next, isn’t something awry? Specifically, when Donald Trump insists that he is a Christian (“a good Christian” to use his descriptor) and then blasts, belittles, and denigrates everyone from Barbara Bush to John McCain to Megyn Kelly, shouldn’t we speak up?

If the candidate is not a Christian, then I have no right to speak. But if the candidate does what Trump has done, wave a Bible and attempt to quote from it, then we, his fellow Christians need to call him to at least a modicum of Christian behavior, right?

Again, I struck a nerve. More than three million of you read the article in the first 36 hours! Thousands of you weighed in with your comments. They were fascinating to read. (Not all of them pleasant to read, mind you. The dozens of you who told me to stick to the pulpit and stop meddling in politics– I get it. By the way, I’d like to invite you to attend our services. My upcoming message is “Kindness”.) Detractors notwithstanding, your comments were heartfelt and passionate.

I detected a few themes.

You have a deep sense of love for our country. Patriotism oozed through your words. You cherish the uniqueness and wonder of the USA. You have varying opinions regarding leadership style, role of government, and political strategy. But when it comes to loving the country, you are unanimously off the charts.

You have an allergy to “convenient” Christians. You resist people who don the Christian title at convenient opportunities (i.e., presidential campaigns). You would prefer the candidate make no mention of faith rather than leave the appearance of a borrowed faith that will be returned to the lender after the election.

You are concerned, profoundly concerned, about the future of our country. The debt. Immorality. National security. The role of the Supreme Court. Immigration. Religious liberty. The list is as long as the worries are deep.

So where does this leave us? When a person treasures the country, but has trepidation about its future, what is the best course of action?

Elijah can weigh in on this question.

He lived during one of the darkest days in the history of Israel. The Northern Kingdom had 19 kings, each one of whom was evil. Hope had boarded the last train and optimism the final flight. The leaders were corrupt and the hearts of the people were cold. But comets are most visible against the black sky. And in the midst of the darkness, a fiery comet by the name of Elijah appeared.

The name Elijah means, “My God is Jehovah.” And he lived up to his name. He appeared in the throne room of evil King Ahab with a weather report. “‘As the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word’” (1 Kings 17:1).

Elijah’s attack was calibrated. Baal was the fertility god of the pagans, the god to whom they looked for rain and fertile fields. Elijah called for a showdown: the true God of Israel against the false god of the pagans. How could Elijah be so confident of the impending drought? Because he had prayed.

Eight centuries later the prayers of Elijah were used as a model.

“The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops” (James 5:16-18).

James was impressed that a prayer of such power came from a person so common. Elijah was “a human being” but his prayers were heard because he prayed earnestly. This was no casual prayer, comfortable prayer, but a radical prayer. “Do whatever it takes, Lord,” Elijah begged, “even if that means no water.”

What happened next is one of the greatest stories in the Bible. Elijah told the 450 prophets of Baal: You get a bull, I’ll get a bull. You build an altar, I’ll build an altar. You ask your god to send fire; I’ll ask my God to send fire. The God who answers by fire is the true God.

The prophets of Baal agreed and went first.

“At noon Elijah began to taunt them. ‘Shout louder!’ he said. ‘Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.’

“So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention” (1 Kings 18:27-29).

(Elijah would have flunked a course in diplomacy.) Though the prophets cut themselves and raved all afternoon, nothing happened. Finally Elijah asked for his turn.

“Then Elijah said to all the people, ‘Come here to me.’ They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which had been torn down. Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, ‘Your name shall be Israel’” (1 Kings 18:30-31).

Elijah poured four jugs of water (remember, this was a time of drought) over the altar three times. Then Elijah prayed.

“LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command.   Answer me, LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again” (1 Kings 18:36-37).

Note how quickly and dramatically God answered.

“Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench. When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, ‘The LORD—he is God! The LORD—he is God!’” (1 Kings 18:38-39).

“Pow!” the altar was ablaze. God delighted in and answered Elijah’s prayer. God delights in and answers our prayers as well.

Let’s start a fire, shall we?

If your responses to my blog are any indication, you are anxious. You love this country, yet you are troubled about the future. You wonder what the future holds and what we can do. Elijah’s story provides the answer. We can pray. We can offer earnest, passionate prayers.

It’s time to turn our concerns into a unified prayer. Let’s join our hearts and invite God to do again what he did then; demonstrate His power. Super Tuesday, March 1, is the perfect day for us to step into the presence of God.

Dear Lord,

You outrank any leader. You hold sway over every office. Greater is the occupant of Heaven’s throne than the occupant of the White House.

You have been good to this country. You have blessed us in spite of our sin and guarded us in spite of our rebellion.

We unite our hearts in one prayer. Let your kingdom come. Let your will be done. Please, speak through the electoral process to reveal your leader.

This we pray in the name of Jesus,

Amen

© Max Lucado
 February 29, 2016

https://maxlucado.com/worried-enough-to-pray-2/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Las Vegas on February 29, 2016, 04:20:50 PM
Quote
When a candidate waves a Bible in one speech and calls a reporter “bimbo” in the next, isn’t something awry?

Not necessarily.  The writer sounds dishonest, too.  I'd bet we could find all sorts of hypocritical things in this article, versus the author, if we looked.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 29, 2016, 04:50:04 PM
Not necessarily.  The writer sounds dishonest, too.  I'd bet we could find all sorts of hypocritical things in this article, versus the author, if we looked.

Max Lucado dishonest?  I think not.  lol  Classic ad hominem.  This is about Trump, not Lucado. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Las Vegas on February 29, 2016, 04:59:31 PM
Max Lucado dishonest?  I think not.  lol  Classic ad hominem.  This is about Trump, not Lucado. 

Do you think Lucado has ever called someone a name?  Because if he has, then he's made this about himself, actually.

All someone needs to do is look to find Trump say he's never asked for forgiveness.  That's it.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 29, 2016, 06:39:49 PM
Do you think Lucado has ever called someone a name?  Because if he has, then he's made this about himself, actually.

All someone needs to do is look to find Trump say he's never asked for forgiveness.  That's it.

I have no idea.  What I do know is he has never run for office, then called himself a Christian, held up a Bible, tried to quote it, then simultaneously have all sorts of filth come out of his mouth.  So, apples and oranges.

This commentary is about Trump, not Lucado. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Las Vegas on February 29, 2016, 07:20:47 PM
I have no idea.  What I do know is he has never run for office, then called himself a Christian, held up a Bible, tried to quote it, then simultaneously have all sorts of filth come out of his mouth.  So, apples and oranges.

This commentary is about Trump, not Lucado. 

And those comments are being weighed, which is the main purpose of a discussion board.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 01, 2016, 11:00:00 AM
And those comments are being weighed, which is the main purpose of a discussion board.

They are being contorted.  You can obviously talk about whatever you want.  I'm pointing out how your comments have nothing to do with Lucado's commentary.  His commentary is about Trump. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 28, 2016, 05:40:58 PM
The best story of the day that the mainstream media will ignore
By  Todd Starnes  
Published September 28, 2016
FoxNews.com
(http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/opinion/2016/09/28/best-story-day-that-mainstream-media-will-ignore/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-0.img.jpg/876/493/1475076775711.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
 
When you dropped your kids off at school today -- you probably saw a bunch of students gathered around the flag pole.

Those kids were part of See You at the Pole - a national prayer gathering.

Some two million young people woke up before sunrise to pray with their classmates. Many of you posted photos on my Facebook page of students praying in your hometowns - from Staten Island, New York to Stinking Creek, Kentucky.

There were first graders and freshmen holding hands on this cool Autumn day to pray for our nation -- to cry out - as the Psalmist said so many centuries ago.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/09/28/best-story-day-that-mainstream-media-will-ignore.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on September 29, 2016, 04:40:52 AM
Thank you for this.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 29, 2016, 02:03:15 PM
Thank you for this.

No problem.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 04, 2017, 01:33:53 PM
Trump marks National Day of Prayer, signs executive order on religious freedom
Published May 04, 2017
Fox News

President Trump marked the National Day of Prayer by signing an executive order aimed at boosting religious freedom by easing IRS restrictions against political activities by tax-exempt religious organizations, including churches.

Declaring "no one should be censoring sermons," Trump announced the order, which fulfilled a campaign pledge, during a Rose Garden ceremony Thursday attended by religious leaders, activists and Vice President Pence.

“We will not allow people of faith to be targeted, bullied or silenced again and we will never stand for religious discrimination,” Trump said before signing the order, which states it is now administration policy is “to protect and vigorously promote religious liberty.”

EXECUTIVE ORDER: PROMOTING FREE SPEECH AND RELIGIOUS LIBERTY

The ban on political speech from the pulpit is rooted in an amendment introduced in 1954 by then-Democratic Sen. Lyndon Johnson that gave the IRS authority to punish tax-exempt charitable organizations, including churches, for making political endorsements or getting involved in political campaigns.

The order directs the IRS to exercise maximum enforcement discretion to alleviate the burden of the so-called Johnson Amendment.

In addition, it instructs the Treasury Department not to target the tax-exempt status of churches and other institutions if they express support for political candidates.

The order also directs the Department of Justice to ensure religious protections are afforded to individuals and groups, such as Little Sisters of the Poor, a group of nuns who take a vow of poverty in serving the elderly.

In his introductory remarks, Pence said the National Day of Prayer is a time to reaffirm “the vital role people of faith play in American society” and praised the president for marking the day in such a public manner.

Trump campaigned against the ban and pledged in his address to the Republican National Convention that he would “work very hard to repeal that language and to protect free speech for all Americans.”

Trump called up several of the Little Sisters of the Poor members and congratulated them on their landmark victory in the Supreme Court over the issue of the contraceptive mandate included in ObamaCare.

According to Trump, more than 50 religious groups filed lawsuits against the Obama administration for violating their religious liberty.

Before the final order was released, several religious liberty groups expressed support for the administration’s actions.

“The first freedom in the Bill of Rights is religious freedom. America was born on the foundation of religious freedom and it is one of our most cherished liberties. There could be no better day to sign an executive order on religious freedom than the National Day of Prayer,” said Mat Staver, chairman of Liberty Counsel.

Mark Rienzi, counsel for The Becket Fund, said on Twitter he was encouraged by the “promise of the protection” coming from the White House and looked forward to seeing the final language.

The Becket Fund is the public interest law firm which has represented the Little Sisters of the Poor in their fight to be exempted from ObamaCare’s contraceptive mandate.

The executive order drew critics from the left and the right.

"If the … EO on religious liberty ends up being what media outlets are currently reporting, then it'll be woefully inadequate," tweeted Ryan Anderson, a senior research fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation.

The American Civil Liberties Union argued the executive actions constitute “a broadside to our country’s long-standing commitment to the separation of church and state” that will divide the nation and permit discrimination.

"President Trump’s efforts to promote religious freedom are thinly-veiled efforts to unleash his conservative religious base into the political arena while also using religion to discriminate. It’s a dual dose of pandering to a base and denying reproductive care. We will see Trump in court, again,” said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero in a statement.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/04/trump-marks-national-day-prayer-signs-executive-order-on-religious-freedom.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 25, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 12, 2017, 11:50:21 AM
Trump's Oval Office Prayer Vigil Sparks Angry Backlash
By David A. Patten   |   Wednesday, 12 Jul 2017

Tuesday's release of photos of a chance encounter between evangelicals and President Donald Trump in the White House, which shows leading evangelicals laying hands on and praying for the president of the United States in the Oval Office, has touched off an angry backlash on Twitter and in the mainstream media.

CNN immediately tied the meeting to reports the administration has become unhinged following the latest allegations of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russian government, which authorities believe conducted a cyberwar and hacking campaign in a bid to disrupt the November election.

Those in attendance at the Oval Office meeting on Monday, however, reported the president was confident, collected, and in total control of his administration's agenda.

Author and evangelical leader Johnnie Moore posted an image of the group prayer to Twitter on Tuesday evening:

 Johnnie Moore ن @JohnnieM
Such an honor to pray within the Oval Office for @POTUS & @VP .
11 Jul 2017
(https://twitter.com/JohnnieM/status/884942560439009281/photo/1)

In the image, Trump is seen with his head bowed and surrounded by faith leaders, some of whom are resting their hands on him, all in an attitude of devout prayer. Moore says the president's visit with faith leaders was not pre-arranged, and included Vice President Mike Pence and top presidential adviser Jared Kushner.

The image immediately sparked an angry backlash, including allegations that Moore is somehow racist for having a better relationship with Trump than with his predecessor.

Others suggest the image symbolizes a dangerous erosion in the separation of church and state.

One particularly emotional post cursed Moore and "the disappearing line between church and state. It's 2017 people; magic is a party trick for kids."

Moore calls the irate remarks "the most vile, vicious things I've ever seen or received in my entire life," adding: "What's so ironic is that the left sees all of us as the ones who are dangerous, who are dividing America. And yet I can tell you when conservatives lose, we lose with dignity, we lose with class. We get back and win the next time around. You know, we learn from our mistakes.

"That's not the case with the left. The left is in this sort of frenetic, emotional moment, they've lost all rationality, they care nothing about objectivity or truth, and they're just lashing out."

Moore tells Newsmax that he and his fellow faith-leaders were in the White House for an all-day meeting on policy that did not happen to involve the president.

"The president got wind that we were there and insisted that we come say hi," he explains.

The tenor of the Oval Office visit, he says, ran counter to the mainstream media narrative splashed on the pages of The Washington Post and The New York Times portraying a White House knocked off balance by allegations over Russian collusion.

"The president was totally in control of the situation." Moore tells Newsmax. "We left with unbelievable confidence we're in exceptional hands, our religious liberties are also in safe hands, and [we] didn't see a crisis in the White House.

"You read CNN," he added, "there was a crisis in every direction. We didn't see it. We saw strong, confident leadership. We left even more convinced that things are great again than we did when we came in."

Moore, a former vice president at Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, is the author of "Defying ISIS: Preserving Christianity in the Place of Its Birth and in Your Own Backyard."

He says the visceral reaction to a simple image of the pastors praying for the president has exposed the stark cultural divisions in America.

"I think it shows how the left has totally lost its mind that they think it's an extraordinary thing for faith leaders to be praying with the president of the United States in the Oval Office," he tells Newsmax.

More said evangelicals "have a wide open door like never before into this administration," and suggested progressives will have to make peace with the fact that the president of the United States openly prays with leading evangelicals.

"This wasn't the first time, it won't be the last time," he says. "And the principle promise that evangelicals have made to the president, the vice president, and the administration is that millions of us will be praying for him every day."

http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/donald-trump-johnnie-moore-oval-office-prayer/2017/07/12/id/801248/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on July 27, 2017, 02:01:29 PM
Kentucky told to pay attorney fees in same-sex marriage case

FRANKFORT, Ky. (AP) — A federal judge has ordered Kentucky taxpayers to pay more than $220,000 in legal fees because a county clerk refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples in 2015.

U.S. District Judge David Bunning on Friday ordered the state to pay $222,695 in fees to the attorneys of two same-sex couples and others who sued Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis for refusing to give them marriage licenses. He also awarded $2,008.08 in other costs. Bunning said the county and Davis herself did not have to pay.

https://apnews.com/1409cfff0f8146e8a494b73c62f9a5b4
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 31, 2017, 05:16:19 PM
Bible Studies Underway at White House
By Mark Swanson   |   Monday, 31 Jul 2017

About a dozen members of President Donald Trump's cabinet gather each week for Bible study at the White House, CBN News reports.

Tom Price, Betsy DeVos, Rick Perry, Mike Pompeo, Jeff Sessions and Sonny Perdue are among the cabinet members who take part, CBN reports.

"These are godly individuals that God has risen to a position of prominence in our culture," Ralph Drollinger of Capitol Ministries told CBN. "It's the best Bible study that I've ever taught in my life. They are so teachable; they're so noble; they're so learned."

Trump gets a copy of Drollinger's teachings for the week, and Vice President Mike Pence has vowed to attend as time permits, CBN reported.

"I just praise God for them," Drollinger told CBN. "And I praise God for Mike Pence, who I think with Donald Trump chose great people to lead our nation."

http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/trump-white-house-bible-study/2017/07/31/id/804841/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 01, 2017, 03:23:16 PM

Trump declares national day of prayer, following Abbott's lead in Texas

Written by
Todd J. Gillman, Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump declared a national day of prayer on Sunday as the Gulf Coast reels from Hurricane Harvey, following the lead of Texas, where on Thursday, Gov. Greg Abbott declared Sunday a day of prayer.

"We invite all Americans to join us as we continue to pray for those who have lost family members and friends, and for those who are suffering from this great crisis," the president said in the Oval Office, where he met and prayed with pastors from around the country.

Robert Jeffress, senior pastor at First Baptist Church in Dallas, was among the clergy who prayed with Trump in the Oval Office on Friday.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIqIAOAUEAAyYaB.jpg)
Dr. Robert Jeffress ✔ @robertjeffress
Honored to lead prayer as @POTUS declares Sunday a Day of Prayer for #Harvey victims. Grateful for @POTUS who believes in power of prayer.
8:31 AM - Sep 1, 2017
 40 40 Replies   104 104 Retweets   281 281 likes

"From the beginning of our nation, Americans have joined together in prayer during times of great need to ask for God's blessing and God's guidance. When we look across Texas and Louisiana, we see the American spirit of service embodied by countless men and women," Trump said in the Oval Office, flanked by religious leaders.

"Families have given food and shelter to those in need. Houses of worship have organized efforts to clean up communities and repair damaged homes. People have never seen anything quite like this. Individuals of every background are striving for the same goal: to aid and comfort people facing devastating losses."

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2017/09/01/trump-declares-national-day-prayer-following-abbotts-lead-texas
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on September 27, 2017, 10:23:08 PM
If Trump declaring a national day of prayer doesn't turn your stomach, you're likely not going to heaven
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 03, 2017, 12:46:27 PM
If Trump declaring a national day of prayer doesn't turn your stomach, you're likely not going to heaven

Guess I ain't going.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 03, 2017, 06:05:20 PM
Guess I ain't going.   :)

odds are against it...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 03, 2017, 06:07:34 PM
odds are against it...

Well duh.  I am a bad boy.  Trouble is my middle name. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 21, 2017, 04:27:28 PM
'Thank you God for our courageous president': Trump gets Ben Carson to lead extraordinary prayer before cabinet meeting (even though he once mocked his religion)
HUD Secretary Ben Carson led a prayer during President Trump's meeting with his cabinet
Carson thanked God for 'the president and for cabinet members who are courageous'
Expressed thanks for 'unity' in Congress
Mentioned economic expansion and destructive debt
He spoke as $1.5 trillion tax cut made its way through the House
During the campaign Trump said he 'just don't know' about Carson's Seventh Day Adventism
He also called him 'lower energy' and brought up 'pathological temper' comment
By Geoff Earle, Deputy U.s. Political Editor For Dailymail.com

PUBLISHED: 20 December 2017

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5199533/Ben-Carson-leads-extraordinary-prayer-cabinet-meeting.html#ixzz51we0abFW
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 21, 2017, 09:27:12 PM
'Thank you God for our courageous president': Trump gets Ben Carson to lead extraordinary prayer before cabinet meeting (even though he once mocked his religion)
HUD Secretary Ben Carson led a prayer during President Trump's meeting with his cabinet
Carson thanked God for 'the president and for cabinet members who are courageous'
Expressed thanks for 'unity' in Congress
Mentioned economic expansion and destructive debt
He spoke as $1.5 trillion tax cut made its way through the House
During the campaign Trump said he 'just don't know' about Carson's Seventh Day Adventism
He also called him 'lower energy' and brought up 'pathological temper' comment
By Geoff Earle, Deputy U.s. Political Editor For Dailymail.com

PUBLISHED: 20 December 2017

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5199533/Ben-Carson-leads-extraordinary-prayer-cabinet-meeting.html#ixzz51we0abFW

Yeah, God had a hand in any of this... the gullibility level is astonishing
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 22, 2017, 10:06:03 AM
Yeah, God had a hand in any of this... the gullibility level is astonishing

God saved us from Hillary Clinton.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 22, 2017, 11:43:52 AM
God saved us from Hillary Clinton.   :)

I knew you loved Trump, didn't realize you consider him God
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 22, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
I knew you loved Trump, didn't realize you consider him God

How could you know something that isn't true?  I was a Never Trumper.  Not anymore. 

But Hillary Clinton?  We would have gone to hell in a hand basket if that corrupt liar was POTUS.  Not sure the country and the world could stand a third Obama term. 

God Bless America.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on January 24, 2018, 05:00:39 PM
Texas judge interrupts jury, says God told him defendant is not guilty

A state district judge in Comal County said God told him to intervene in jury deliberations to sway jurors to return a not guilty verdict in the trial of a Buda woman accused of trafficking a teen girl for sex.

Judge Jack Robison apologized to jurors for the interruption, but defended his actions by telling them “when God tells me I gotta do something, I gotta do it,” according to the Herald-Zeitung in New Braunfels.

The jury went against the judge’s wishes, finding Gloria Romero-Perez guilty of continuous trafficking of a person and later sentenced her to 25 years in prison. They found her not guilty of a separate charge of sale or purchase of a child.

http://www.statesman.com/news/crime--law/texas-judge-interrupts-jury-says-god-told-him-defendant-not-guilty/ZRdGbT7xPu7lc6kMMPeWKL/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 26, 2018, 03:29:17 PM
Texas judge interrupts jury, says God told him defendant is not guilty

A state district judge in Comal County said God told him to intervene in jury deliberations to sway jurors to return a not guilty verdict in the trial of a Buda woman accused of trafficking a teen girl for sex.

Judge Jack Robison apologized to jurors for the interruption, but defended his actions by telling them “when God tells me I gotta do something, I gotta do it,” according to the Herald-Zeitung in New Braunfels.

The jury went against the judge’s wishes, finding Gloria Romero-Perez guilty of continuous trafficking of a person and later sentenced her to 25 years in prison. They found her not guilty of a separate charge of sale or purchase of a child.

http://www.statesman.com/news/crime--law/texas-judge-interrupts-jury-says-god-told-him-defendant-not-guilty/ZRdGbT7xPu7lc6kMMPeWKL/

Completely inappropriate if true.  He shouldn't be a judge if he's doing stuff like this. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2018, 02:48:41 PM
Atheist orgs ‘intimidate’ Trump’s Cabinet over Bible study — see Ben Carson’s defiant response
Jan 27, 2018

Ben Carson, secretary of Housing and Urban Development, this week defiantly responded to two atheist organizations who he said are trying to “intimidate” him and other senior-level government officials for participating in a Bible study.

What’s going on?

Two atheist organizations — The Freedom From Religion Foundation and Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington — are suing Carson and his department for failing to waive fees associated with Freedom of Information Act requests.

Special: James Altucher: Do not buy Bitcoin until you see this
FFRF and CREW filed FOIA requests to determine if a weekly Bible study conducted by members of President Donald Trump’s Cabinet have used government resources for their weekly gathering. The organizations also wanted to know if any staffers had been “coerced into organizing or even participating in the religious event,” according to CBN News.

Among those who attend the study are: Carson, Attorney General Jeff Sessions, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, Agriculture Secretary Sunny Perdue and CIA Director Mike Pompeo.

Associated with FOIA requests are standard fees for processing if the information requested is neither in the public’s interest nor related to an agency’s operations. HUD charged FFRF and CREW a fee for their FOIA requests and refused to waive it.

That led the groups to sue Carson and HUD this week. They are alleging HUD is denying them fee waivers “where disclosure of the requested documents is likely to cast the agency or HUD Secretary Ben Carson in a negative light,” according to Newsmax.

How did Carson respond?

He said in a Facebook post:

First of all, taxpayer funds are not used to support the ministry, and secondly, no staff are involved in the Bible study. More importantly, I refuse to be intimidated by anti-religious groups into relinquishing my spirituality or religious beliefs. One of the principles of our nation‘s founding is freedom of religion.

I will not stop being a Christian while in service to this country, in fact, it is my faith that helps me serve the nation even better.

The relentless attacks on the spirituality of our nation must be resisted. We are not like everyone else, which is precisely the reason that we rose so rapidly from obscurity to become the most powerful and free nation in history.
Carson went on to explain that three foundational American principles are under attack, citing patriotism, morality and spirituality.

“We the people must decide who we are and what we stand for,” Carson said, adding that if America doesn’t, the nation could become unrecognizable.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/01/27/atheist-orgs-intimidate-trumps-cabinet-over-bible-study-see-ben-carsons-defiant-response
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on February 02, 2018, 10:45:50 PM
prayer and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on February 02, 2018, 10:47:33 PM
It's because these downtrodden atheists are just like others (read- libtards) of their kind.  They look for the "offensive" everywhere but in a mirror.

To hell with them and their pussified mentality.

wonder why MOS didn't respond to this... hmmmm
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on February 03, 2018, 06:15:48 AM
wonder why MOS didn't respond to this... hmmmm

Why would you wonder about his lack of a response?  My question was directed at my fellow atheists who are more assholists.  These are the idiots that can't look at the letter "T" without whining like a vampire that it's a Cross and should therefor be banned from the Alphabet.

As for your statement that "prayer and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee"?  Who really gives a fuck?  I mean, really now.  How lame is that "statement". How about something with more vim and vigor? 

"Prayer and $75,000 will get you a 2018 Corvette".   

Reads just as dumb, does it not?  Of course it does.  I don't mind that you're an atheist, but me?  I am an Atheist.   I am the worst nightmare for atheists that are just as, if not more, self-centered buttwipes as Jim and Tammy Baker ever were.  I'll tell you this, be glad, be very gland that I am not in charge of any heaven or hell. Why?  Because fucktards that belittle the faith of good people such as MoS or Butterbean would never pass go, never collect $200 and not get out of Hell for a very long time.

Muslimes would spend eternity there with the aforementioned idiots, the Bakers.  If faith is genuine, people live it in public and in private.  If not, they simply lie it. And that goes for atheists.  So many of "us" are shit-for-brains self-centered, jerks.  None of us knows for certain what awaits us as the final breath leaves our body. 

For many atheists, that last breath is more a fart. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 05, 2018, 02:39:38 PM
prayer and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee

Why do you post on this board?  Is it have a serious discussion or just to mock religion and religious people? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 09, 2018, 11:39:22 AM
Sportswriter: NBC Should Censor Tony Dungy for Citing QB's Christian Faith As Success Factor
By Tom Blumer | February 8, 2018

There is a little doubt that a segment of the sports press and the public would prefer that athletes with conservative and Christian beliefs keep their views to themselves (but secular and leftist views are fine). This became evident after the Super Bowl, when one sportswriter and the Twitter mob strongly criticized NBC's Tony Dungy, a Super Bowl-winning coach himself, for citing Philadelphia Eagle quarterback Nick Foles' self-professed Christian faith as contributing to his success.

These people wanted — no, really expected — Dungy to not relay what Foles, the team's backup quarterback until became its starter after Carson Wentz's season-ending injury on December 10, told him about his mindset ahead of the big game.

But that's part of Dungy's job, so he did:

TonyDungySuperBowlFoles3 on020618

Oh my. Foles cited the Lord, and Dungy told everyone. Pass the smelling salts.

After harsh initial criticism, Dungy responded early Tuesday:

TonyDungySuperBowlFoles1 on020618

Note that Dungy (and Foles) are both mature enough not to claim that the Eagles' victory was God's will, or that Foles won because he might be a stronger Christian that New England Patriots' quarterback Tom Brady, as one unhinged Twitter critic charged. Dungy simply believed Foles' "Christian faith would allow him to play with confidence."

Dungy was on the Foles bandwagon weeks ago. While many sportswriters thought that Wentz's injury had sealed the Eagles' doom, Dungy predicted: "Nick Foles will play well. The NFC Championship Game will be in Philly.”

Dungy posted a further response later Tuesday morning:

TonyDungySuperBowlFoles2 on020618

Those statements were too much for Kyle Koster, a Senior Writer at The Big Lead, to handle.

Late Tuesday morning, Koster wrote that Dungy "should be checked," i.e., muzzled (h/t Daily Caller):

... it would be naive to think Dungy trumpeting the benefits of faith is something being done from a distance while only wearing an analyst’s hat.

.... His long history of evangelizing must be weighed.
In other words, if you evangelize on your own time, anything you say as a sports analyst will receive greater scrutiny, because, well, we've got to make sure that "evangelizing" doesn't occur on the air.

... Dungy, a very public and proud Christian, pushed a narrative favorable to Christianity that may or may not be true ...

Dungy expressing his beliefs on his personal time and platform is one thing. ... But when his beliefs seep into his analyst role — either unintentionally or otherwise — they should be checked, both by NBC and the public.
No, Mr. Koster. All Dungy did is tell the public what Foles told him and compliment his play. Koster clearly believes that a sports journalist shouldn't be allowed to do that if icky Christianity is involved, and that NBC and "the public" should stop someone who tries. This is the same mindset possessed by broadcasters who routinely censor athletes thanking God for their success after games.

Koster's hostility also came through in a separate Wednesday tweet: "Nick Foles was a Christian when he wasn't very good at football, too."

How pathetic.

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/tom-blumer/2018/02/08/sportswriter-wants-nbc-censor-tony-dungy-reporting-eagles-qb-cited
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 09, 2018, 11:40:48 AM
Trump at National Prayer Breakfast: America is a nation of believers
David Jackson, USA TODAY
Published Feb. 8, 2018

WASHINGTON – President Trump stuck to the script during the National Prayer Breakfast on Thursday, honoring the power of faith and politics for leaders facing national and internal challenges.

"America is a nation of believers and together we are strengthened by the power of prayer," Trump told delegates at the annual breakfast that has welcomed American presidents since 1953.

The event reminds people that "faith is central to Americas life and liberty," Trump said. "Our rights are not given to us by man ... Our rights come from our Creator."

Trump, who made evangelicals and religious conservatives major parts of his political coalition, discussed the role of faith as political leaders grapple with problems that range from the opioid epidemic to the rogue regime of North Korea.

Trump took some heat during his first prayer breakfast last year when he mocked Arnold Schwarzenegger over his struggles as host of The Apprentice, the president's old television game show. ("The ratings went right down the tubes," Trump riffed then, adding that "I want to just pray for Arnold ... for those ratings.")

Trump also referred to The Apprentice in an early morning tweet preceding this year's prayer breakfast appearance.

"Great religious and political leaders, and many friends, including T.V. producer Mark Burnett of our wonderful 14 season Apprentice triumph, will be there," Trump tweeted.

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
Will be heading over shortly to make remarks at The National Prayer Breakfast in Washington. Great religious and political leaders, and many friends, including T.V. producer Mark Burnett of our wonderful 14 season Apprentice triumph, will be there. Looking forward to seeing all!
1:08 AM - Feb 8, 2018
99.3K
38.2K people are talking about this
Twitter Ads info and privacy
As usual, an international crowd assembled for the breakfast, including up to 60 Russians. A special counsel and congressional committees are investigating Russian efforts to influence the 2016 election via hacked emails and fake news.

Trump also worked in some foreign policy during the breakfast, meeting on the sidelines with the president of Guatemala, Jimmy Morales.

While Trump has criticized illegal immigration from Guatemala and other Central American countries, Guatemala did back the United States on a recent foreign policy dispute: Like the U.S., Guatemala announced it was moving its embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/08/trump-national-prayer-breakfast-america-nation-believers/318680002/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on February 09, 2018, 12:19:36 PM
Libtardians hate Christians but love muslimes.  They despise people who, if challenged, may well die for their faith and embrace a bunch of cuntlettes that would kill for theirs.

Go figure.  I am now an Atheist but can easily recognize good people.  Those that follow the Nazarene are definitely among those I call good.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on February 10, 2018, 09:16:41 PM
Libtardians hate Christians but love muslimes.  They despise people who, if challenged, may well die for their faith and embrace a bunch of cuntlettes that would kill for theirs.

Go figure.  I am now an Atheist but can easily recognize good people.  Those that follow the Nazarene are definitely among those I call good.
well, that's your option
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 13, 2018, 06:02:15 PM
Libtardians hate Christians but love muslimes.  They despise people who, if challenged, may well die for their faith and embrace a bunch of cuntlettes that would kill for theirs.

Go figure.  I am now an Atheist but can easily recognize good people.  Those that follow the Nazarene are definitely among those I call good.

The anti-Christians who embrace Islam are pretty weird. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on February 13, 2018, 08:40:14 PM
The anti-Christians who embrace Islam are pretty weird. 

agree
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 11, 2018, 03:23:58 PM
WATCH: Alabama Football Players Pray For Donald Trump And His Staff At The White House
(http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Donald_Trump_Prayer-e1523470214534.jpg)
FORD SPRINGER
Entertainment Reporter
04/11/2018

Nick Saban and the Alabama football team proved how special it is having the opportunity to visit the White House on Tuesday in more ways than one.

Donald Trump welcomed the Crimson Tide to the White House yesterday to recognize the team for their national championship victory. Of course, it was a special moment for the team, but what happened after the ceremony was truly amazing.

After Trump finished praising Alabama for their incredible comeback victory over Georgia in the national championship, punter J.K. Scott pulled the president aside and asked if he could pray for Trump and his staff. A handful of Scott’s teammates then circled around Trump and bowed their heads in prayer together.

The ceremonial visits to the White House have become a topic of controversy since Trump took over in the Oval Office. Almost every team that has won a championship over the past year and a half has had at least one player refuse to come, citing Trump as the reason.

Alabama head coach Nick Saban made sure that didn’t happen with his team. In fact, every player on the championship team but one attended the White House on Tuesday. Unfortunately Terrell Lewis, who grew up just 25 miles from the White House, could not attend due to a death in the family.

No matter how athletes feel about who lives in the White House, they should all hope and pray that he succeeds. Clearly the Crimson Tide understands that better than most.

http://dailycaller.com/2018/04/11/alabama-football-players-pray-donald-trump-white-house/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 03, 2018, 11:20:21 PM
On the National Day of Prayer: Let us pray that our nation is on God's side
Scott Gunn By Scott Gunn   | Fox News

Today is the National Day of Prayer. As a Christian, and a priest at that, every day is a day of prayer for me. But I am still grateful our nation sets aside a day for prayer.

Prayer changes people. Every time I pray, I know that it changes me and my life. Sometimes, I am even blessed to see change in others as I pray for them. For people of faith, prayer is an indispensable part of our relationship with God. All relationships require conversation, and prayer is our chance to talk with God. In prayer we share our hopes with God, and we listen for God’s hope for us.

The Second Continental Congress established days of prayer and fasting going back to the earliest years of our nation. Various other national days, including Thanksgiving, were set aside in the 1800s. It was 1952 when the National Day of Prayer as we know it was enacted.

Over these many years, our attitude toward national prayer has changed. Originally, there was a great deal of humility in the prayer. Sometimes people fasted, going without food as a gesture of humility before God. The point was to conform our nation to God’s will.

If you read political speeches from the 1800s, you’ll notice that when presidents invoked God, they expressed hope that our nation was on God’s side. They prayed with humility. This is a far cry from the common assumption today that our nation is always in the right, and that we must thereby speak with assurance that God is on our side. Too often, we tell God what to do, instead of asking God what we must do.

The National Day of Prayer, at its best, offers all of us in this wonderful nation the gift of praying that we might be blessed by God’s wisdom and courage.

The National Day of Prayer, at its best, offers all of us in this wonderful nation the gift of praying that we might be blessed by God’s wisdom and courage. We pray that we would always know and do those things God wills. This is not a day for using prayer to achieve whatever political aims we might want. It is rather a day for inviting God to guide our politics.

My prayer as a Christian, is always to have the wisdom, strength, and courage to be on God’s side. I’ll pray for justice, peace, and mercy for all. I’ll pray for freedom for all people to thrive as the people God made them to be. I’ll pray for our nation to use those things God has given us for the common good.

I am a priest in the Episcopal Church, and The Book of Common Prayer is one of the treasures of my church. Today, I invite you to join me in saying these words, from our prayer book, for our country.

"Almighty God, who hast given us this good land for our heritage: We humbly beseech thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of thy favor and glad to do thy will. Bless our land with honorable industry, sound learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion; from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitudes brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues.

"Endue with the spirit of wisdom those to whom in thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that, through obedience to thy law, we may show forth thy praise among the nations of the earth. In the time of prosperity, fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in thee to fail; all which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/05/03/on-national-day-prayer-let-us-pray-that-our-nation-is-on-gods-side.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 24, 2018, 05:08:38 PM
Paranoid religious extremists in schools... Just firing these zealots is not enough, they should face actual punishment.

Oregon High School Principal and Resource Officer Fired For Anti-LGBTQ Discrimination, Including Telling Gay Students They Were Going to Hell

North Bend High School principal Bill Lucero and school resource officer Jason Griggs are being removed from their jobs in the district's settlement with the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon. The firings come after complaints from former and current students, including Liv Funk and Hailey Smith, about suffering anti-LGBTQ harassment and discrimination from classmates and administration.

North Bend High School has been under scrutiny since April, when the ODE launched an investigation into the district's possible anti-discrimination law violations, including making students read Bible passages as punishment.

http://www.wweek.com/news/2018/05/21/an-oregon-high-school-counselor-allegedly-told-gay-students-they-were-going-to-hell-while-classmates-attacked-them-and-yelled-slurs/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2018, 07:48:14 PM
Paranoid religious extremists in schools... Just firing these zealots is not enough, they should face actual punishment.

Oregon High School Principal and Resource Officer Fired For Anti-LGBTQ Discrimination, Including Telling Gay Students They Were Going to Hell

North Bend High School principal Bill Lucero and school resource officer Jason Griggs are being removed from their jobs in the district's settlement with the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon. The firings come after complaints from former and current students, including Liv Funk and Hailey Smith, about suffering anti-LGBTQ harassment and discrimination from classmates and administration.

North Bend High School has been under scrutiny since April, when the ODE launched an investigation into the district's possible anti-discrimination law violations, including making students read Bible passages as punishment.

http://www.wweek.com/news/2018/05/21/an-oregon-high-school-counselor-allegedly-told-gay-students-they-were-going-to-hell-while-classmates-attacked-them-and-yelled-slurs/


Good
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 24, 2018, 09:02:38 PM
Public schools would kowtow to muslime scum but choose to remove Christians.  Fuck their noise.

Fuck the cucks.  I hope there is a Hell for these cucked up libtardians.  They deserve to be the 72 "virgins" for their muzzie masters.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2018, 09:03:55 PM
Public schools would kowtow to muslime scum but choose to remove Christians.  Fuck their noise.

Fuck the cucks.  I hope there is a Hell for these cucked up libtardians.  They deserve to be the 72 "virgins" for their muzzie masters.

Did you read the article? I doubt it. You wouldn't' have posted that. You aren't that stupid
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 24, 2018, 09:10:02 PM
Did you read the article?

Nope. I simply read the stuff posted that accompanied said link.  I know libtards and they populate the pubic school system like fetid blisters populate Kai Greene's anus.   Libs just love to bob for balls on muzzies and despise anyone that even professes belief in the Nazarene.

Fuck islime.  Anyone that isn't against that infestation deserves to serve as cumdumpster cuck for eternity in Hell.  If there were a Hell.  There isn't.   Fuck this entire bowel movment that spawned the sensitive new age fuckit.  I'm not here to argue the point but to make one.  Fuck islime and those that bow to it. 

You don't like the Nazarene?  BFD.  I dont give a fuck for the cuck of islime, hoMohammed.  Fuck that noise.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2018, 09:12:33 PM
Nope. I simply read the stuff posted that accompanied said link.  I know libtards and they populate the pubic school system like fetid blisters populate Kai Greene's anus.   Libs just love to bob for balls on muzzies and despise anyone that even professes belief in the Nazarene.

Fuck islime.  Anyone that isn't against that infestation deserves to serve as cumdumpster cuck for eternity in Hell.  If there were a Hell.  There isn't.   Fuck this entire bowel movment that spawned the sensitive new age fuckit.  I'm not here to argue the point but to make one.  Fuck islime and those that bow to it. 

You don't like the Nazarene?  BFD.  I dont give a fuck for the cuck of islime, hoMohammed.  Fuck that noise.



so you didn't read it and commented. Ok
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 24, 2018, 09:15:53 PM
Did you read the article? I doubt it. If you did. Screw you. But I doubt you did or your wouldn't' have posted that. You aren't that stupid

You sure you were LEO?  You don't read like you were and believe me, I know what I am saying.  And like I said,  I ain't here to argue any point, just make 'em.  I'm correct on this subject and not because it's me that's making the point but because what I say is true.


Liberals hate the Nazarene. Their rai·son d'ê·tre seems to be to suck off muslimes. Cuckolds.  They just love abuse at the hands of stinky people.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 24, 2018, 09:17:13 PM
so you didn't read it and commented. Ok

I see no problem with that.  If you do, you had best NEVER make another posting here on anything you're not remotely educated on.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2018, 09:22:12 PM
I see no problem with that.  If you do, you had best NEVER make another posting here on anything you're not remotely educated on.

I read the article. You commented on something and didn't remotely address the issue. Sorry dude but your anti atheist (but I'm an atheist I just hate other atheist and love Jesus) is starting to show.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 24, 2018, 09:29:52 PM
I read the article. You commented on something and didn't remotely address the issue. Sorry dude but your anti atheist (but I'm an atheist I just hate other atheist and love Jesus) is starting to show.   

"Starting to show"...FTN.  I make no bones about my loathing for fucktards and that being regardless of what side of the Rubic's Cube they come from.  I respect the Nazarene for who he was.

You?  Not nearly so much, but then neither you nor I will be remembered in under a hundred years.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 24, 2018, 10:39:49 PM
Paranoid religious extremists in schools... Just firing these zealots is not enough, they should face actual punishment.

Oregon High School Principal and Resource Officer Fired For Anti-LGBTQ Discrimination, Including Telling Gay Students They Were Going to Hell

North Bend High School principal Bill Lucero and school resource officer Jason Griggs are being removed from their jobs in the district's settlement with the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon. The firings come after complaints from former and current students, including Liv Funk and Hailey Smith, about suffering anti-LGBTQ harassment and discrimination from classmates and administration.

North Bend High School has been under scrutiny since April, when the ODE launched an investigation into the district's possible anti-discrimination law violations, including making students read Bible passages as punishment.

http://www.wweek.com/news/2018/05/21/an-oregon-high-school-counselor-allegedly-told-gay-students-they-were-going-to-hell-while-classmates-attacked-them-and-yelled-slurs/


Definitely should have been fired, and firing is punishment.  What other kind of punishment are you talking about? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2018, 10:42:57 PM
Definitely should have been fired, and firing is punishment.  What other kind of punishment are you talking about? 

Firing works for me
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 29, 2018, 11:09:46 AM
These christians are unhinged.

"Commercial airlines are filled with “a bunch of demons” that get in the way of their busy schedules"

Living in extravagant luxury but when it comes to paying taxes like ordinary citizens and businesses, that would somehow restrict their "exercise of religion". What a novel excuse.

Louisiana televangelist seeks donations for $54M private jet: report

A Louisiana-based televangelist is asking his followers to donate money for a $54 million jet that can “go anywhere in the world in one stop,” The Times-Picayune reported. 

Jesse Duplantis, 68, a Christian minister based in Destrehan, about 25 miles east of New Orleans, says his ministry has paid cash for three private jets.

“You know I’ve owned three different jets in my life and used them and used them and just burning them up for the Lord,” Duplantis says in a video posted to his ministries’ website.

Duplantis is now reportedly seeking the funds for a Dassault Falcon 7X, worth $54 million.

The problem with the previous jets, he says, is that they require multiple stops to refuel. But flying the Falcon 7X, Duplantis says, will allow him to save money and not pay “those exorbitant prices with jet fuel all over the world.” 

“I really believe that if Jesus was physically on the earth today, he wouldn’t be riding a donkey,” Duplantis says in the video, “He’d be in an airplane preaching the gospel all over the world.”

Duplantis’ video comes after another televangelist, Kenneth Copeland in Texas, purchased the Gulfstream V jet for $36 million.

Both televangelists defended their use of private jets during a joint appearance on Copeland’s program, saying that commercial airlines are filled with “a bunch of demons” that get in the way of their busy schedules.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/29/louisiana-televangelist-seeks-donations-for-54m-private-jet-report.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 29, 2018, 11:12:24 AM
Another reason ALL churches should pay taxes. Many of them are just money making businesses.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 29, 2018, 08:30:11 PM
These christians are unhinged.

"Commercial airlines are filled with “a bunch of demons” that get in the way of their busy schedules"

Living in extravagant luxury but when it comes to paying taxes like ordinary citizens and businesses, that would somehow restrict their "exercise of religion". What a novel excuse.

Louisiana televangelist seeks donations for $54M private jet: report

A Louisiana-based televangelist is asking his followers to donate money for a $54 million jet that can “go anywhere in the world in one stop,” The Times-Picayune reported. 

Jesse Duplantis, 68, a Christian minister based in Destrehan, about 25 miles east of New Orleans, says his ministry has paid cash for three private jets.

“You know I’ve owned three different jets in my life and used them and used them and just burning them up for the Lord,” Duplantis says in a video posted to his ministries’ website.

Duplantis is now reportedly seeking the funds for a Dassault Falcon 7X, worth $54 million.

The problem with the previous jets, he says, is that they require multiple stops to refuel. But flying the Falcon 7X, Duplantis says, will allow him to save money and not pay “those exorbitant prices with jet fuel all over the world.” 

“I really believe that if Jesus was physically on the earth today, he wouldn’t be riding a donkey,” Duplantis says in the video, “He’d be in an airplane preaching the gospel all over the world.”

Duplantis’ video comes after another televangelist, Kenneth Copeland in Texas, purchased the Gulfstream V jet for $36 million.

Both televangelists defended their use of private jets during a joint appearance on Copeland’s program, saying that commercial airlines are filled with “a bunch of demons” that get in the way of their busy schedules.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/29/louisiana-televangelist-seeks-donations-for-54m-private-jet-report.html

If by "these Christians" you mean these nuts asking for money to buy private jets, I agree.  If you mean Christians in general, I disagree.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on June 26, 2018, 02:38:47 PM
Paranoid religious extremists in schools... Just firing these zealots is not enough, they should face actual punishment.

Oregon High School Principal and Resource Officer Fired For Anti-LGBTQ Discrimination, Including Telling Gay Students They Were Going to Hell

North Bend High School principal Bill Lucero and school resource officer Jason Griggs are being removed from their jobs in the district's settlement with the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon. The firings come after complaints from former and current students, including Liv Funk and Hailey Smith, about suffering anti-LGBTQ harassment and discrimination from classmates and administration.

North Bend High School has been under scrutiny since April, when the ODE launched an investigation into the district's possible anti-discrimination law violations, including making students read Bible passages as punishment.

http://www.wweek.com/news/2018/05/21/an-oregon-high-school-counselor-allegedly-told-gay-students-they-were-going-to-hell-while-classmates-attacked-them-and-yelled-slurs/


This is what happens when paranoid religious extremists are not punished. He will now be put in charge of even younger children. Seems somewhat similar to how criminal cops just go work for a different police department or pedophile priests move to a different city.

After discrimination allegations, North Bend moves high school principal to middle school

NORTH BEND, Ore. - The high school principal removed from his post after accusations of discrimination at the school against LGBTQ students has been re-assigned as vice principal of the district's middle school.

The North Bend School District removed Bill Lucero as principal of North Bend High School amidst scrutiny from the State of Oregon and pressure from the ACLU of Oregon.

Lucero will be the vice principal at North Bend Middle School next year.

That school's principal will take over as principal of the high school, and the current vice principal of the middle school will be principal at the middle school, the district announced Monday.

http://kpic.com/news/local/after-deal-with-aclu-north-bend-moves-high-school-principal-to-middle-school
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on July 03, 2018, 02:21:45 PM
This happened in Australia but it showcases how widespread the problem of religious sexual abuse is and how lightly several of these religious abusers are treated. Another case of he's too important to be punished like ordinary people "oh he's too old and frail to go to prison" (we heard similar excuses about Arpaio and other criminals as well). If he's "too old" and "in poor health" then what can be said about his victims?  Certainly they were too young and exploited but that doesn't seem to count when the abuses comes from religious figures and institutions.

Archbishop Philip Wilson sentenced for concealing child sex abuse

A Catholic archbishop in Australia has been given a maximum sentence of 12 months in detention for concealing child sexual abuse in the 1970s. Philip Wilson, now archbishop of Adelaide, is the most senior Catholic globally to be convicted of the crime. He was found guilty by a court last month of covering up abuse by a paedophile priest in New South Wales.

On Tuesday, the court ordered Wilson to be assessed for "home detention" - meaning he will probably avoid jail. Magistrate Robert Stone said the senior clergyman had shown "no remorse or contrition". He will be eligible for parole after six months.

In May, a court found he had failed to report his colleague James Patrick Fletcher's abuse of altar boys to police. Wilson, then a junior priest in the Maitland region, had dismissed young victims in a bid to protect the Church's reputation, Magistrate Stone ruled.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-44692396

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 04, 2018, 12:08:45 PM
This happened in Australia but it showcases how widespread the problem of religious sexual abuse is and how lightly several of these religious abusers are treated. Another case of he's too important to be punished like ordinary people "oh he's too old and frail to go to prison" (we heard similar excuses about Arpaio and other criminals as well). If he's "too old" and "in poor health" then what can be said about his victims?  Certainly they were too young and exploited but that doesn't seem to count when the abuses comes from religious figures and institutions.

Archbishop Philip Wilson sentenced for concealing child sex abuse

A Catholic archbishop in Australia has been given a maximum sentence of 12 months in detention for concealing child sexual abuse in the 1970s. Philip Wilson, now archbishop of Adelaide, is the most senior Catholic globally to be convicted of the crime. He was found guilty by a court last month of covering up abuse by a paedophile priest in New South Wales.

On Tuesday, the court ordered Wilson to be assessed for "home detention" - meaning he will probably avoid jail. Magistrate Robert Stone said the senior clergyman had shown "no remorse or contrition". He will be eligible for parole after six months.

In May, a court found he had failed to report his colleague James Patrick Fletcher's abuse of altar boys to police. Wilson, then a junior priest in the Maitland region, had dismissed young victims in a bid to protect the Church's reputation, Magistrate Stone ruled.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-44692396



What he did was outrageous and inexcusable.  Regarding his sentence, here is the context:  "The archbishop's lawyers had sought to have the case thrown out on four occasions, citing the 67-year-old's diagnosis with Alzheimer's disease."
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on July 04, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
What he did was outrageous and inexcusable.  Regarding his sentence, here is the context:  "The archbishop's lawyers had sought to have the case thrown out on four occasions, citing the 67-year-old's diagnosis with Alzheimer's disease."

He didn't seem to have Alzheimer's disease when these abuses happened so he knew what he was doing. He was conveniently diagnosed just before the trial.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 04, 2018, 06:17:59 PM
He didn't seem to have Alzheimer's disease when these abuses happened so he knew what he was doing. He was conveniently diagnosed just before the trial.

I have no idea if he is faking it.  If he isn't, I understand why the judge wouldn't put him in prison. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Primemuscle on July 04, 2018, 07:04:52 PM
I have no idea if he is faking it.  If he isn't, I understand why the judge wouldn't put him in prison. 

I don't understand why a sexual predator shouldn't be institutionalized under any circumstances. To diagnose Alzheimer disease, doctors do a thorough medical history, mental status and mood testing and a physical and neurological exam. Tests (such as blood tests and brain imaging) are done to rule out other causes of dementia-like symptoms.

Alzheimer disease does not excuse child sexual abuse, IMO. It sickens me when religious leaders and organizations cover up child sexual abuse.

The Catholic religion seems to do this more often than do other churches or maybe it is that sexual abuse is more rampant among Catholic priests. Western or Latin-Rite Church priests and sisters take a vow of celibacy. Imposed celibacy is unnatural and for some unsustainable.

In recent times, the Church has allowed for married priests if they were married prior to becoming Catholic priests. Should their spouses die, they are not permitted to remarry.

Both my children were raised Catholic and attended Catholic school. My son was an altar boy and sang in the choir. As parents, my wife and I made clear to them that certain behavior was not acceptable no matter who the perpetrator was. Father C. was gay. Never did he try any funny business with my son. I know this because my son would have immediately reported it to my wife and me.

If there is a lesson in my post, it is that parents must give their children all the tools and support they need to survive whatever assaults they might encounter.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 04, 2018, 08:49:48 PM
I don't understand why a sexual predator shouldn't be institutionalized under any circumstances. To diagnose Alzheimer disease, doctors do a thorough medical history, mental status and mood testing and a physical and neurological exam. Tests (such as blood tests and brain imaging) are done to rule out other causes of dementia-like symptoms.

Alzheimer disease does not excuse child sexual abuse, IMO. It sickens me when religious leaders and organizations cover up child sexual abuse.

The Catholic religion seems to do this more often than do other churches or maybe it is that sexual abuse is more rampant among Catholic priests. Western or Latin-Rite Church priests and sisters take a vow of celibacy. Imposed celibacy is unnatural and for some unsustainable.

In recent times, the Church has allowed for married priests if they were married prior to becoming Catholic priests. Should their spouses die, they are not permitted to remarry.

Both my children were raised Catholic and attended Catholic school. My son was an altar boy and sang in the choir. As parents, my wife and I made clear to them that certain behavior was not acceptable no matter who the perpetrator was. Father C. was gay. Never did he try any funny business with my son. I know this because my son would have immediately reported it to my wife and me.

If there is a lesson in my post, it is that parents must give their children all the tools and support they need to survive whatever assaults they might encounter.

Of course his medical condition does not excuse his conduct.  It's only relevant to what we do with him when he has lost his senses and cannot take of himself.  We don't keep people like that in prison.  If he's a danger to anyone he should be in a medical facility for criminals, not a regular prison. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Primemuscle on July 04, 2018, 10:59:54 PM
Of course his medical condition does not excuse his conduct.  It's only relevant to what we do with him when he has lost his senses and cannot take of himself.  We don't keep people like that in prison.  If he's a danger to anyone he should be in a medical facility for criminals, not a regular prison. 

This is why I chose the term institutionalized instead of imprisoned. Someone actually in the later stages of Alzheimer's wouldn't last a day in prison. Putting someone like this in prison would be inhumane. It would save a bunch of taxpayer money though.

I should probably be more sensitive to the subject of Alzheimer's since the older I get, the more likely something like this could happen to me. If it does, I'm determined to fake it for as long as possible. It helps that I'm already pretty eccentric.  ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 06, 2018, 09:58:52 PM
Because you develop an illness issue common in the elderly shouldn't give you a pass
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 09, 2018, 02:30:31 PM
Because you develop an illness issue common in the elderly shouldn't give you a pass

People with dementia shouldn't be in prison. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 09, 2018, 04:13:10 PM
People with dementia shouldn't be in prison. 

Depends on the crime. I truly don't care if a rapist or child abuser develops dementia in prison. But I would be open to putting them down rather than keeping them locked up.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 09, 2018, 04:29:21 PM
Depends on the crime. I truly don't care if a rapist or child abuser develops dementia in prison. But I would be open to putting them down rather than keeping them locked up.

Good thing things like life, liberty, and due process parts of the Constitution disagree with you.  We do compassionate releases all the time for prisoners who are sick or dying. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 09, 2018, 09:58:04 PM
Good thing things like life, liberty, and due process parts of the Constitution disagree with you.  We do compassionate releases all the time for prisoners who are sick or dying.  

I'm just stating my opinion. IF bleeding hearts want to release pedophiles and rapists... thats up to the bleeding heart liberals like you 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 09, 2018, 11:51:18 PM
I'm just stating my opinion. IF bleeding hearts want to release pedophiles and rapists... thats up to the bleeding heart liberals like you 

Only in a movie or novel would someone be convicted of a crime, not sentenced to death, then killed when they become sick or have dementia.  Or in Hitler's Germany.  Or your little twisted liberal mind. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 10, 2018, 01:08:14 AM
Only in a movie or novel would someone be convicted of a crime, not sentenced to death, then killed when they become sick or have dementia.  Or in Hitler's Germany.  Or your little twisted liberal mind.  

Defending pedophiles now? Any minute Soulcrusher and Coach and all those conservatives are going to be jumping on you about being a soft libtard
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 10, 2018, 10:27:13 AM
Defending pedophiles now? Any minute Soulcrusher and Coach and all those conservatives are going to be jumping on you about being a soft libtard

Defending the Constitution from radical leftists like you, Adolf. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on July 10, 2018, 11:33:05 AM
Organized religions are all wacky.

Especially the ones who go out and try to recruit people.

That's when it gets out of control.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 10, 2018, 12:25:46 PM
Organized religions are all wacky.

Especially the ones who go out and try to recruit people.

That's when it gets out of control.

No they aren't. 

Many organized religions aren't much different than atheists when it comes to proselytizing. 

Do you think religious groups should be barred from talking to people about their faith? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on July 10, 2018, 12:34:40 PM
No they aren't. 

Many organized religions aren't much different than atheists when it comes to proselytizing. 

Do you think religious groups should be barred from talking to people about their faith? 

I think it's annoying when they come to my door and want to talk to me.  So yes, stay away from my house.

Some communities have laws against door-to-door soliciting. 

Don't call me, I'll call you.

I've never had an atheist come to my door recruiting me into atheism.  Never had a Jew come to my door recruiting me into Judaism.



Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 10, 2018, 12:36:07 PM
Organized religions are all wacky.

Especially the ones who go out and try to recruit people.

That's when it gets out of control.

When you really get to the nuts and bolts of it.. it is whacky. That an adult can willingly believe, or at least say they believe that 6000 years ago a supernatural being created everything, then created man and woman, the woman from the mans rib. Then create a garden, put a tree in it that contains Knowledge of good and evil and forbid them to eat from it which he already knew they would..He then doesn't like how man turned out so he floods the earth killing all but one family and all the animals of the world, which he saved on a boat. Then we get to the stories of God stopping the sun in the sky so one tribe can slaughter another.. a sea parting at the request of moses then closing back up on the approaching enemy. Lets see.. then there is the multiple plagues god brought to Egypt to convince the Pharaoh to let his people go... the writers lost track of how many times the cattle where completely wiped out...Then God kills all the 1st born if they didn't have the blood of a lamb on the door...
Then we get to  around 2000 years ago, when according to the manuscripts, a baby was born of a virgin.. could walk on water, turn water to wine, heal the sick and ascended to heaven. He answers your prayers kinda sorta, depending on vague things like if its his will or not.. loves you but will send you to an eternal hell if you don't love him. And this is one of the more widely accepted religious beliefs... When you get to Mormons, Scientologists, it just gets weirder. There is no limit to what people will believe if they want to bad enough
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 10, 2018, 12:54:54 PM
I think it's annoying when they come to my door and want to talk to me.  So yes, stay away from my house.

Some communities have laws against door-to-door soliciting. 

Don't call me, I'll call you.

I've never had an atheist come to my door recruiting me into atheism.  Never had a Jew come to my door recruiting me into Judaism.


They come to my door all the time.  I say no thank you.  You want a law preventing religious people from knocking on people's doors?  Sounds unconstitutional. 

Does the door-to-door soliciting include religious folks?  What communities are you talking about?  I'd like to read one or two of whatever they passed. 

Atheists are constantly trying to convert people and push their non-beliefs on others.  They even have atheist churches.  It's bizarre.  All centered on the non-belief in something. 

Pretty extensive operation:

Plus the following is clearly proselytizing:

    * Fought fervently to defend the Separation of Religion from GovernmentAppeared in all formes of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology
    * Held Atheist conventions and gatherings throughout the United States, including "Atheist Pride" Marches in state capitals.
    * Demonstrated and picketed throughout the country on behalf of Atheist rights and state church separation. The organization has marched to defend the rights of intellectuals such as writer Salman Rushdie, protested the use of government funds to support public religious displays, and conducted the first picket of a Roman Catholic pope in history.
    * Published over 120 books about Atheism, criticism of religion, and state/church separation.Published newsletters, magazines and member-alerts.
    * Built a broad outreach in cyberspace with mailing lists, an ftp and web site, FaxNet and other projects to keep members and the general public informed.
    * Fostered a growing network of Representatives throughout the nation who monitor important First Amendment issues, and work on behalf of the organization in their areas.
    * Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective.
    * Preserved Atheist literature and history in the nation's largest archive of its kind. The library's holdings span over three hundred years of Atheist thought.Provided speakers for colleges, universities, clubs and the news media.
    * Granted college scholarships to young atheist activists

http://www.atheists.org/about
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on July 10, 2018, 01:10:20 PM
People can do whatever they want as long as they do not infringe on other people rights.

If Atheists want to get together it's fine.

If Jehovahs Witnesses want to get together it's fine.

Don't come to my door and bother me.  F*ck off.

As far as separation of religion and government I am all for it.

Some Christians are all for the incorporation of their religion into government.  Do you think they are for the incorporation of a different religion into their government?  Highly doubtful.

Say a Christian prayer before the start of the Senate.  That's ok.

How about a Hindu prayer?  Or a Muslim prayer?  A Satanic prayer?  A pagan prayer?

"Mighty Odin look favorably on this Senate meeting!"



Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 10, 2018, 01:14:24 PM
Comparing organized atheists with organized religion is like comparing what  the indian tribes did at the Battle of Little Big Horn against Custer and the spreading of chicken pox via infected blankets. Because of religious zealots desire to infect every aspect of life with their beliefs, those who don't share that personal belief in a god or gods had to organize in order to keep them out of their lives. If you can't see that, you just aren't trying.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 10, 2018, 01:34:10 PM
People can do whatever they want as long as they do not infringe on other people rights.

If Atheists want to get together it's fine.

If Jehovahs Witnesses want to get together it's fine.

Don't come to my door and bother me.  F*ck off.

As far as separation of religion and government I am all for it.

Some Christians are all for the incorporation of their religion into government.  Do you think they are for the incorporation of a different religion into their government?  Highly doubtful.

Say a Christian prayer before the start of the Senate.  That's ok.

How about a Hindu prayer?  Or a Muslim prayer?  A Satanic prayer?  A pagan prayer?

"Mighty Odin look favorably on this Senate meeting!"


I'd rather they not come to my door either, but I don't need a law to prevent it from happening.  I also don't care about people approaching me on the street.  I simply say no thank you.  It doesn't inconvenience my life at all. 

I'm definitely a believer in church-state separation.  I am not, however, a believer in the removal of all religious references or influences from the public square.  That isn't required by the Constitution.  Our historical roots are faith based.  That's part of who we are as a country.  No need to try and rewrite history. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on July 10, 2018, 05:49:17 PM
I'd rather they not come to my door either, but I don't need a law to prevent it from happening.  I also don't care about people approaching me on the street.  I simply say no thank you.  It doesn't inconvenience my life at all. 

I'm definitely a believer in church-state separation.  I am not, however, a believer in the removal of all religious references or influences from the public square.  That isn't required by the Constitution.  Our historical roots are faith based.  That's part of who we are as a country.  No need to try and rewrite history. 

"Religious references".

Whose religion?  Yours?  A pagans?  Satanists?  Muslim?

"One nation, under Vishnu (Baal), indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Would you be ok with that?

In front of your town hall the Christmas Creche, the Menorah, statue of Baal, Vishnu?

Would you be ok with that?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 10, 2018, 06:26:43 PM
"Religious references".

Whose religion?  Yours?  A pagans?  Satanists?  Muslim?

"One nation, under Vishnu (Baal), indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Would you be ok with that?

In front of your town hall the Christmas Creche, the Menorah, statue of Baal, Vishnu?

Would you be ok with that?

The religious references that are a part of our history.  Let's not pretend that the founders of our country (both legislators and lay people) were not Christians.  And you don't need to quote any of deist stuff.  I've studied it. 

If you look at our founding documents, nothing refers to Baal, so that really isn't a reasonable hypothetical.  You're smart enough to know what I'm talking about.   

We already have displays on government property that include various religious displays.  Doesn't bother me one bit.  I don't suffer emotional distress when I see non-Christian things.  But the atheists who run around the country filing lawsuits do suffer emotional distress when they see any hint of Christian symbols on public problem, which is just weird given the fact they don't believe God exists. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 10, 2018, 07:11:10 PM
The religious references that are a part of our history.  Let's not pretend that the founders of our country (both legislators and lay people) were not Christians.  And you don't need to quote any of deist stuff.  I've studied it. 

If you look at our founding documents, nothing refers to Baal, so that really isn't a reasonable hypothetical.  You're smart enough to know what I'm talking about.   

We already have displays on government property that include various religious displays.  Doesn't bother me one bit.  I don't suffer emotional distress when I see non-Christian things.  But the atheists who run around the country filing lawsuits do suffer emotional distress when they see any hint of Christian symbols on public problem, which is just weird given the fact they don't believe God exists. 

I think it is a false picture to say they are suffering emotional distress. But if that is the playbook you want to go by cool... I'll try again, though I think you really already understand it, you just can't admit it but it's certainly not weird when a group who doesn't believe in Dragons, are concerned when another group that does believe in dragons, and actively tries to weave their belief of dragons into government and laws. Of course the group that doesn't believe in dragons will get involved to insure there is separation of dragons  and state. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 10, 2018, 11:19:28 PM
I think it is a false picture to say they are suffering emotional distress. But if that is the playbook you want to go by cool... I'll try again, though I think you really already understand it, you just can't admit it but it's certainly not weird when a group who doesn't believe in Dragons, are concerned when another group that does believe in dragons, and actively tries to weave their belief of dragons into government and laws. Of course the group that doesn't believe in dragons will get involved to insure there is separation of dragons  and state. 

O Rly?  Because I'm a nice guy, I'll give you a chance to use Google, because Google knows everything, and see whether or not atheists file lawsuits claiming emotional distress over things they don't believe exist. 

Or you can stand behind your false statement and let me educate you.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 11, 2018, 12:08:28 AM
O Rly?  Because I'm a nice guy, I'll give you a chance to use Google, because Google knows everything, and see whether or not atheists file lawsuits claiming emotional distress over things they don't believe exist. 

Or you can stand behind your false statement and let me educate you.   :)

You still don't get it...  ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 11, 2018, 11:08:56 AM
I think it is a false picture to say they are suffering emotional distress. But if that is the playbook you want to go by cool...

Ok.  Fine.  You're too lazy or bullheaded to do just a little homework.  School is in session.   :D

Here is one.  Lawsuit filed over the display of the Ten Commandments:

Plaintiff Sue Mercier is a resident of La Crosse, Wisconsin and a member of plaintiff Freedom from Religion Foundation. When visiting her lawyer's office, which is near the monument site, plaintiff Mercier must sometimes alter her route to avoid seeing the monument. She shops at the People's Food Coop and the farmers' market less often than she would if the monument were not in Cameron Park. When she has viewed the monument, it has "disturbed" her emotionally.

Plaintiff Elizabeth Ash is a resident of La Crosse. She does not attend meetings or events held in Cameron Park because she does not want to view the monument. She does not use banks near the monument. When driving downtown, she avoids streets that would take her past the monument. She has stopped going to Cameron Park to sit in it and read books. When she does see the monument, she feels marginalized and has experienced physical pain.

Plaintiff Angela Belcaster is a resident of La Crosse. She patronizes several businesses surrounding Cameron Park, including the People's Food Coop and U.S. Bank. She has changed her route when visiting these establishments so that she does not park in front of the monument. She no longer has lunch in the park because of the monument. However, Belcaster still passes Cameron Park when driving through the downtown. When she approaches the park, she begins thinking about the monument, which distracts her and causes her emotional distress. The monument's presence and defendant's support of it makes Belcaster feel like an outsider.

. . . .

https://ffrf.org/uploads/legal/LCDecision.html

I'll give you another opportunity to retract before I continue.   ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on July 11, 2018, 12:39:28 PM
Some of these athiests are whackjobs just like other kinds of whackjobs.

No doubt.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 11, 2018, 02:17:37 PM
Some of these athiests are whackjobs just like other kinds of whackjobs.

No doubt.

Some are but when you understand and soulcrusher can chime in, in order for a law suit to be filed there has to be some damage to the plaintiff, whether it is financial, physical or emotional. It's part of the system so it would be normal, actually required for a person who wishes to put the religious folks in check, to use the emotional argument. Doesn't actually mean they were emotionally distressed. Again, blaming the athiests for reacting to Christians historical abuse of their religion in government is ridiculous. And again, it goes right over his head
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 11, 2018, 02:33:01 PM
Some of these athiests are whackjobs just like other kinds of whackjobs.

No doubt.

Agree. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 11, 2018, 02:52:13 PM
I think it is a false picture to say they are suffering emotional distress. But if that is the playbook you want to go by cool...

We learned in spring 2005 that a high school in Brevard County, Florida, was planning to hold its graduation ceremony in a local church. The church has a large cross on its dais that the church refused to allow to be covered. Because our complainants were uncomfortable with going public with their objections, we sought to encourage the School Board to change the venue without the need for litigation, but our efforts were unsuccessful. In the course of our negotiations, we learned that the practice was not limited to a single high school; several high schools and at least one middle school were planning to hold their graduations at the church. On May 17, 2005, shortly before the first of these graduation ceremonies was to be held, we filed a complaint and a motion for a temporary restraining order in federal district court. The court held a hearing on the motion the following day. After hearing argument, the court ruled that the plaintiffs were likely to succeed on the merits of their claim, but that a restraining order would not be proper at that late date because it would mean the graduation ceremonies would need to be canceled. The School Board then proceeded with the graduation ceremonies as planned. We later amended our complaint to seek emotional-distress damages for the harm that our plaintiffs suffered as a result of the Board’s decision to proceed with the graduation. The court set a trial date of December 21, 2005, so we quickly proceeding with discovery. On October 25, 2005, however, while discovery was underway, the School Board voted to settle the case with a court-enforceable order prohibiting graduation ceremonies at sites in which religious iconography is visible. The case concluded with the court’s acceptance of the settlement agreement. All the graduation ceremonies for 2006 are slated to take place at secular venues.

https://www.au.org/our-work/legal/lawsuits/musgrove-v-brevard-county-school-board
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 11, 2018, 03:22:25 PM
thanks for proving my point

." The court set a trial date of December 21, 2005, so we quickly proceeding with discovery. On October 25, 2005, however, while discovery was underway, the School Board voted to settle the case with a court-enforceable order prohibiting graduation ceremonies at sites in which religious iconography is visible. The case concluded with the court’s acceptance of the settlement agreement. All the graduation ceremonies for 2006 are slated to take place at secular venues."

It's a shame that religious people KNOW what they are doing is a violation and still insist on ignoring it, making the atheists who are just wanting separation of church and state out to be the bad guys. That you don't understand how the legal system works and think atheists who oppose the violations are actually  emotionally distressed rather than vying for legal standing is your problem
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 11, 2018, 03:58:31 PM
I think it is a false picture to say they are suffering emotional distress. But if that is the playbook you want to go by cool...


You are one pigheaded dude.  You want more? 

It is unconstitutional, a federal court has ruled, for a public cemetery to have a planter in the shape of a cross, since, as the court explained, the mere sight of it could cause “emotional distress” to a passerby and thus constitute “injury-in-fact.”
http://mobile.wnd.com/2002/11/16030/#cA3hoVuwOlBxu2uP.99
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 11, 2018, 04:16:47 PM
You are one pigheaded dude.  You want more? 

It is unconstitutional, a federal court has ruled, for a public cemetery to have a planter in the shape of a cross, since, as the court explained, the mere sight of it could cause “emotional distress” to a passerby and thus constitute “injury-in-fact.”
http://mobile.wnd.com/2002/11/16030/#cA3hoVuwOlBxu2uP.99

whooooooosh!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 11, 2018, 04:25:50 PM
whooooooosh!

Wait.  First you say atheists do not claim emotional distress by seeing something they don't believe in, then you claim they are justified in doing so?  LOL!

Class is dismissed.  Take your seat in the corner.  Tall pointy hat to follow. 

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 11, 2018, 06:12:36 PM
Nope, you want to label them as snowflakes for being emotionally distressed. I stand by my position which is the correct one by the way, they are not clinically emotionally distressed, they are legally emotionally distressed. it is a requirement to have some kind of injury or loss in order to have standing. I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 11, 2018, 07:56:05 PM
Nope, you want to label them as snowflakes for being emotionally distressed. I stand by my position which is the correct one by the way, they are not clinically emotionally distressed, they are legally emotionally distressed. it is a requirement to have some kind of injury or loss in order to have standing. I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you

My position was that they are claiming emotional distress.  I said nothing about whether they actually suffer from emotional distress.  Your position was that they do not even claim to suffer from emotional distress.  Until I proved that they do make those claims, at which time you felt vindicated because they actually might suffer emotional distress. lol 

But whatever.  My work here is done.  And as I have told you in the past, come correct.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 11, 2018, 08:14:22 PM
Ok.  Fine.  You're too lazy or bullheaded to do just a little homework.  School is in session.   :D

Here is one.  Lawsuit filed over the display of the Ten Commandments:

Plaintiff Sue Mercier is a resident of La Crosse, Wisconsin and a member of plaintiff Freedom from Religion Foundation. When visiting her lawyer's office, which is near the monument site, plaintiff Mercier must sometimes alter her route to avoid seeing the monument. She shops at the People's Food Coop and the farmers' market less often than she would if the monument were not in Cameron Park. When she has viewed the monument, it has "disturbed" her emotionally.

Plaintiff Elizabeth Ash is a resident of La Crosse. She does not attend meetings or events held in Cameron Park because she does not want to view the monument. She does not use banks near the monument. When driving downtown, she avoids streets that would take her past the monument. She has stopped going to Cameron Park to sit in it and read books. When she does see the monument, she feels marginalized and has experienced physical pain.

Plaintiff Angela Belcaster is a resident of La Crosse. She patronizes several businesses surrounding Cameron Park, including the People's Food Coop and U.S. Bank. She has changed her route when visiting these establishments so that she does not park in front of the monument. She no longer has lunch in the park because of the monument. However, Belcaster still passes Cameron Park when driving through the downtown. When she approaches the park, she begins thinking about the monument, which distracts her and causes her emotional distress. The monument's presence and defendant's support of it makes Belcaster feel like an outsider.

. . . .

https://ffrf.org/uploads/legal/LCDecision.html

I'll give you another opportunity to retract before I continue.   ;D
;D

Your words were not directed at me but I shall try to offer content worthy of your words.

I'm now an Atheist and Christian symbols don't bother me in the least.   Assholists on the other hand (you know, the LEFT  hand that muslimes wipe their buttholes with) will claim anything to rid the world of anything of the Nazarene.  And money.  Let's not forget that while these Assholists don't worship a God, they do worship the almighty moolah.

If Rory believes in the Nazarene, good for  him.  Better the Christ than some bass ackwards muslime pedophile of a Profit.   

 ;D

Fuck That Noise. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 11, 2018, 08:53:31 PM
;D

Your words were not directed at me but I shall try to offer content worthy of your words.

I'm now an Atheist and Christian symbols don't bother me in the least.   Assholists on the other hand (you know, the LEFT  hand that muslimes wipe their buttholes with) will claim anything to rid the world of anything of the Nazarene.  And money.  Let's not forget that while these Assholists don't worship a God, they do worship the almighty moolah.

If Rory believes in the Nazarene, good for  him.  Better the Christ than some bass ackwards muslime pedophile of a Profit.   

 ;D

Fuck That Noise. 

You weren't responding to me but I'll try and offer content worthy of your post.... There are a lot of causes in this world. Animal abuse, Disabled veterans, cancer, homelessness, etc. People pick causes generally that matter to them or they are drawn to. I am a proponent for dogs. I like dogs. I also do a few other things but mainly I like to help shelters out. Other people are concerned that religious zealots, left unchecked, will impose their religious views on others, the main concern is by muddying the waters between church and state. There are people out there than believe it is a worthy cause to make sure the line is kept clear. I don't have time for that, but I appreciate that others have taken it upon themselves to do so. As an atheist, you should recognize the value of that. Otherwise, left unchecked, I guarantee you it wouldn't be long before you wont be able to buy alcohol on Sundays or shop for a car... oh wait.. that's already a law in some states due to religious beliefs...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on July 12, 2018, 03:49:57 AM
Other people are concerned that religious zealots, left unchecked, will impose their religious views on others, the main concern is by muddying the waters between church and state.

This.  While it may not bother people to have their own religion integrated with government, it would bother them greatly to have a different religion do so.

Better to avoid all that and separate church and state.

There are far-out whackjobs on both sides of this issue like any other.  Atheists who try to impose their ideas on everyone else are just as bad as religious extremists.

Do your own thing, harm no one else, and mind your own business.

Avoid all "isms".
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 12, 2018, 03:08:12 PM
;D

Your words were not directed at me but I shall try to offer content worthy of your words.

I'm now an Atheist and Christian symbols don't bother me in the least.   Assholists on the other hand (you know, the LEFT  hand that muslimes wipe their buttholes with) will claim anything to rid the world of anything of the Nazarene.  And money.  Let's not forget that while these Assholists don't worship a God, they do worship the almighty moolah.

If Rory believes in the Nazarene, good for  him.  Better the Christ than some bass ackwards muslime pedophile of a Profit.   

 ;D

Fuck That Noise. 

I'm glad you don't suffer emotional distress when you see things that you don't believe exist.  The people who do are hypersensitive weirdos.  I am a firm believer in church-state separation.  I'm not a believer in trying to avoid hurting someone's feelings because they see religious symbols or hear a prayer. 

You're right about people who use religion to take advantage of others.  Happens way too often.  But that's a problem with some people, not the faith itself.  Just like I say about our Constitution and system of government:  they are brilliant; it's the people who screw them up.  Same with faith:  Christianity, the Bible, and what they stand for are terrific; it's the people who screw it up. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 12, 2018, 03:09:53 PM
This.  While it may not bother people to have their own religion integrated with government, it would bother them greatly to have a different religion do so.

Better to avoid all that and separate church and state.

There are far-out whackjobs on both sides of this issue like any other.  Atheists who try to impose their ideas on everyone else are just as bad as religious extremists.

Do your own thing, harm no one else, and mind your own business.

Avoid all "isms".

We do have church state separation.  There is no religion mandated by the government.  We don't have a government church.  No one is forced to belong to belong to a church. 

What we don't and should not have is some kind of cleansing of all references to religion from the public square. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 12, 2018, 06:08:22 PM
This.  While it may not bother people to have their own religion integrated with government, it would bother them greatly to have a different religion do so.

Better to avoid all that and separate church and state.

There are far-out whackjobs on both sides of this issue like any other.  Atheists who try to impose their ideas on everyone else are just as bad as religious extremists.

Do your own thing, harm no one else, and mind your own business.

Avoid all "isms".


Can't argue with any of that.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 12, 2018, 06:35:30 PM
I'm glad you don't suffer emotional distress when you see things that you don't believe exist.  The people who do are hypersensitive weirdos.  I am a firm believer in church-state separation.  I'm not a believer in trying to avoid hurting someone's feelings because they see religious symbols or hear a prayer. 

You're right about people who use religion to take advantage of others.  Happens way too often.  But that's a problem with some people, not the faith itself.  Just like I say about our Constitution and system of government:  they are brilliant; it's the people who screw them up.  Same with faith:  Christianity, the Bible, and what they stand for are terrific; it's the people who screw it up. 

Most assholists are part-time vampires.  Ever notice in films how a vampire can wake up in a coffin in the middle of graveyard full of crosses and still be able to walk about as if nothing is going on?  They just want to get out of there!  Same with a mirror.  They're not supposed to have a reflection so they avoid looking in them.  But with assholists (who are in general, libtards)  it's simply a matter of their reflection being their own Picture of Dorian Gray and they go out of their way to be offended, i.e., make it a point to go see a cross or a Nativity during Christmas.

We have a separation of church and state because it is the right thing to do.  No state sponsored religion is the way to go.  Just look at muslimes to know what happens when the "government" are the enforcers of belief.  The teachings of the Nazarene are to be admired not admonished.  To be followed, not cast aside.  You need not believe in Jesus of Nazareth to know he was a good and wise man. 

I know more than a few assholists that will jump at the chance to belittle followers of the Christ.  On more than on occasion I've asked them why they don't do the same thing with muslimes.  It's because while a Christian may well die for their faith, a muslime will kill for theirs. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 12, 2018, 06:41:22 PM
Most assholists are part-time vampires.  Ever notice in films how a vampire can wake up in a coffin in the middle of graveyard full of crosses and still be able to walk about as if nothing is going on?  They just want to get out of there!  Same with a mirror.  They're not supposed to have a reflection so they avoid looking in them.  But with assholists (who are in general, libtards)  it's simply a matter of their reflection being their own Picture of Dorian Gray and they go out of their way to be offended, i.e., make it a point to go see a cross or a Nativity during Christmas.

We have a separation of church and state because it is the right thing to do.  No state sponsored religion is the way to go.  Just look at muslimes to know what happens when the "government" are the enforcers of belief.  The teachings of the Nazarene are to be admired not admonished.  To be followed, not cast aside.  You need not believe in Jesus of Nazareth to know he was a good and wise man. 

I know more than a few assholists that will jump at the chance to belittle followers of the Christ.  On more than on occasion I've asked them why they don't do the same thing with muslimes.  It's because while a Christian may well die for their faith, a muslime will kill for theirs. 

Not to be a stickler, but the cross only works if it's held by a person with faith in the cross.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 12, 2018, 06:53:31 PM
Not to be a stickler, but the cross only works if it's held by a person with faith in the cross.

I look at it for what it is, i.e., a film.  There was one film where the hero jumped onto a blade of a windmill and it rotated until he dropped off when it became a giant cross.  The vampire died.   Go figure. No one holding that cross.  Or was it the faithful act of rotating it?  If that were the case, then crossing your fingers would work, but not crossing you eyes.   I recall a 70s era Hammer Film where you could kill a vampire by putting it in running water.  One of the vampires got pushed into a shower and they turned on the water and poof!
'
I don't recall if he burst into flame, but I doubt it as the water would have dowsed the fire and then he would have exploded in flames again  and so on ad infinitum.  Or is that ad nauseam?  For theaction/comedy, "Abraham Lincoln - Vampire Hunter", they had vampires wearing sunglasses and putting on primitive sunblock so they could be day-walkers.   They were also big proponents of slavery as a source of blood without consequence.

If only Honest Abe had accepted his vampire buddy's offer to become one of the undead, he would have survived the assassination on his life and probably gotten a good meal off of J.W. Booth.   I tend to think  of the film as the "real story" of ol' Abe.   ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 12, 2018, 06:58:08 PM
I look at it for what it is, i.e., a film.  There was one film where the hero jumped onto a blade of a windmill and it rotated until he dropped off when it became a giant cross.  The vampire died.   Go figure. No one holding that cross.  Or was it the faithful act of rotating it?  If that were the case, then crossing your fingers would work, but not crossing you eyes.   I recall a 70s era Hammer Film where you could kill a vampire by putting it in running water.  One of the vampires got pushed into a shower and they turned on the water and poof!
'
I don't recall if he burst into flame, but I doubt it as the water would have dowsed the fire and then he would have exploded in flames again  and so on ad infinitum.  Or is that ad nauseam?  For theaction/comedy, "Abraham Lincoln - Vampire Hunter", they had vampires wearing sunglasses and putting on primitive sunblock so they could be day-walkers.   They were also big proponents of slavery as a source of blood without consequence.

If only Honest Abe had accepted his vampire buddy's offer to become one of the undead, he would have survived the assassination on his life and probably gotten a good meal off of J.W. Booth.   I tend to think  of the film as the "real story" of ol' Abe.   ;D

I'm just going on a couple films where the victim brandishes the cross, and the vampire at first shows fear, then laughs because the person holding it doesn't have faith.... But then I wonder, if the Vampire was originally Jewish, would a cross have any impact at all? Ive created more questions than answers...  I will sleep with garlic around  my door and windows until I get this figured out
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 12, 2018, 07:23:26 PM
I'm just going on a couple films where the victim brandishes the cross, and the vampire at first shows fear, then laughs because the person holding it doesn't have faith.... But then I wonder, if the Vampire was originally Jewish, would a cross have any impact at all? Ive created more questions than answers...  I will sleep with garlic around  my door and windows until I get this figured out

You are correct in that a genuine faith is what matters most.  For validation one can read Acts 19:13-17.

The lore that surrounds vampires and the like is turgid with religious or rather Christian symbolism.  For example, silver is offensive/fatal to both vampires and werewolves.  This is due to it being used to pay Judas Iscariot for betraying the Nazarene. 

Personally I carry a bounced cheque to ward off Jewish Vampires. Garlic was used to keep mosquitos away and became effective against all manner of blood suckers including both vampires and your run of the mill liberal.  Or so I am told.  I just carry the aforementioned insufficent funds cheque.     ;)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on July 12, 2018, 07:33:14 PM
You are correct in that a genuine faith is what matters most.  For validation one can read Acts 19:13-17.

The lore that surrounds vampires and the like is turgid with religious or rather Christian symbolism.  For example, silver is offensive/fatal to both vampires and werewolves.  This is due to it being used to pay Judas Iscariot for betraying the Nazarene. 

Personally I carry a bounced cheque to ward off Jewish Vampires. Garlic was used to keep mosquitos away and became effective against all manner of blood suckers including both vampires and your run of the mill liberal.  Or so I am told.  I just carry the aforementioned insufficent funds cheque.     ;)


For an asshole, this is really fucking funny.;
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 12, 2018, 07:41:22 PM
For an asshole, this is really fucking funny.;

Well thank you.  Not to "insult" you, but we are more alike than different.  And no, I am not calling you an asshole.  Or for that matter, a whole ass. I have a sense of humor but especially so when it comes to myself. 

Later.  ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 12, 2018, 08:34:41 PM
Most assholists are part-time vampires.  Ever notice in films how a vampire can wake up in a coffin in the middle of graveyard full of crosses and still be able to walk about as if nothing is going on?  They just want to get out of there!  Same with a mirror.  They're not supposed to have a reflection so they avoid looking in them.  But with assholists (who are in general, libtards)  it's simply a matter of their reflection being their own Picture of Dorian Gray and they go out of their way to be offended, i.e., make it a point to go see a cross or a Nativity during Christmas.

We have a separation of church and state because it is the right thing to do.  No state sponsored religion is the way to go.  Just look at muslimes to know what happens when the "government" are the enforcers of belief.  The teachings of the Nazarene are to be admired not admonished.  To be followed, not cast aside.  You need not believe in Jesus of Nazareth to know he was a good and wise man. 

I know more than a few assholists that will jump at the chance to belittle followers of the Christ.  On more than on occasion I've asked them why they don't do the same thing with muslimes.  It's because while a Christian may well die for their faith, a muslime will kill for theirs. 

Good points.  I do find the liberal fascination with Islam pretty fascinating.  I'm not even sure they realize (or perhaps they don't care) how absurd it is to be anti-Christian, but embrace a religion that subjugates women and kills gay people. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 12, 2018, 09:49:01 PM
Good points.  I do find the liberal fascination with Islam pretty fascinating.  I'm not even sure they realize (or perhaps they don't care) how absurd it is to be anti-Christian, but embrace a religion that subjugates women and kills gay people. 

Its kind of like the lefts fascination with leprechauns and lumberjack contests
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 12, 2018, 10:42:06 PM
Its kind of like the lefts fascination with leprechauns and lumberjack contests

 ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on July 13, 2018, 12:07:30 AM
Well thank you.  Not to "insult" you, but we are more alike than different.  And no, I am not calling you an asshole.  Or for that matter, a whole ass. I have a sense of humor but especially so when it comes to myself. 

Later.  ;D

You're a solid getbigger.  Respect.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on July 22, 2018, 05:11:05 PM
Deranged christian perverts at it again.

Caldwell couple arrested in child abuse case part of faith-healing church

A Caldwell mother arrested last week told deputies her religious beliefs prompted her to pray for her husband rather than tell police about his alleged sexual abuse of their daughters.

Sarah Kester and her husband, Lester Kester Jr., are affiliated with the Followers of Christ Church. The church, which has a prominent following in Canyon County and in Oregon, faces criticism for refusing medical care for children and adults in favor of faith healing.

Instead of contacting law enforcement, Sarah Kester told deputies she tried to protect her children by praying for “the demon” to leave Lester and keeping her husband busy with other tasks, according to a press release from the Canyon County Sheriff’s Office.

https://www.idahopress.com/news/crime_courts/crime/caldwell-couple-arrested-in-child-abuse-case-part-of-faith/article_12a2243e-3cfb-52fb-8e6b-b983cbca0788.amp.html

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 22, 2018, 09:31:22 PM
I had an eventful day yesterday.  Attended and participated in a number of meetings with different organizations/entities.  Most of these meetings involved prayer:

1.  Honolulu City Council Session:  It began with a devotional and prayer by a local pastor.  The City Council members are overwhelmingly liberal Democrat (about 8 out of 9).  I was very surprised.   

2.  State Government Entity:  Attended a meeting that did not include prayer.  I would have fallen off of my chair.   :) 

3.  Nonproft Religious Entity:  The meeting began and ended with prayer.  I was asked to give the closing prayer (I hate doing that.)  These prayers were expected. 

4.  Professional Society:  Attended an annual dinner of professionals.  Not a religious group at all.  The meeting began with a prayer.  The room was overwhelming liberal.

What struck me was what an integral part prayer is in our public life.  I bet the ACLU disapproves.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.   :))   

They should. Keeping peoples personal beliefs in ghosts, devils, and gods out of official government business is a good thing. Private entities are welcome to do whatever they wish
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 23, 2018, 10:52:37 AM
They should. Keeping peoples personal beliefs in ghosts, devils, and gods out of official government business is a good thing. Private entities are welcome to do whatever they wish

No, we don't have to avoid hurting people's feelings.  And we should embrace our heritage, which includes a belief in God and prayer.  I am happy the Constitution and our courts protect us from your kind of paranoid extremist viewpoint.  
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 23, 2018, 05:40:04 PM
No, we don't have to avoid hurting people's feelings.  And we should embrace our heritage, which includes a belief in God and prayer.  I am happy the Constitution and our courts protect us from your kind of paranoid extremist viewpoint.  

This country was founded by believers.  If some don't like that, I say fook 'em.  They need to get used to disappointment. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mentioning the Judeo-Christian God or Jesus of Nazareth.  There is little, if any, difference in the belief of true followers of the Nazarene and the lack of belief in Atheists.  No one is physically or emotionally "harmed" by the symbols of either a Star of David or a Cross, especially the latter of those two as it is the symbolic embodiment of the hope of peace on Earth.


In my life I have asked several muslimes if they would turn in their imam for telling them to blow themselves up in public to take out infidels.  Not a one of them has said anything other than "...my imam would never ask me to do anything wrong". 


Every Christian I have asked the same question about their priest, pastor or minister has said they would turn them over to law enforcement immediately. 

There should never be an official faith of our nation but there is absolutely nothing wrong in basing our laws upon the Judeo-Christian Bible.  islilme's queeron is for batshit crazy pig fuckers and it and it's pedophile followers should never be allowed in our nation or in any civilized country.

I don't fear followers of the Nazarene.  Any that claim to are fooling no one.  They just hate the Messiah because while his word is without question good, it condemns us for our behavior.  Or rather, we condemn ourselves by our acting against his word.  I can deal with that condemnation but then I am adult enough to be able to separate worship from recognizing the goodness of his teaching and try to act accordingly.

Fuck assholists.  Lets see 'em speak out face to face agains muslimes.  They won't.  And again the reason is simple.  Christians may well die for their faith but muslimes are ordered to kill for theirs.  Big difference there and assholists are for the greater part weaklings and prefer to pick on the meek.  It's kinda like when a man goes nuts and shoots up a school or a drug store but these same buttwipes never go shoot up an HA clubhouse.

Because the 81 will shoot back.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 23, 2018, 07:35:50 PM
This country was founded by believers.  If some don't like that, I say fook 'em.  They need to get used to disappointment. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mentioning the Judeo-Christian God or Jesus of Nazareth.  There is little, if any, difference in the belief of true followers of the Nazarene and the lack of belief in Atheists.  No one is physically or emotionally "harmed" by the symbols of either a Star of David or a Cross, especially the latter of those two as it is the symbolic embodiment of the hope of peace on Earth.


In my life I have asked several muslimes if they would turn in their imam for telling them to blow themselves up in public to take out infidels.  Not a one of them has said anything other than "...my imam would never ask me to do anything wrong". 


Every Christian I have asked the same question about their priest, pastor or minister has said they would turn them over to law enforcement immediately. 

There should never be an official faith of our nation but there is absolutely nothing wrong in basing our laws upon the Judeo-Christian Bible.  islilme's queeron is for batshit crazy pig fuckers and it and it's pedophile followers should never be allowed in our nation or in any civilized country.

I don't fear followers of the Nazarene.  Any that claim to are fooling no one.  They just hate the Messiah because while his word is without question good, it condemns us for our behavior.  Or rather, we condemn ourselves by our acting against his word.  I can deal with that condemnation but then I am adult enough to be able to separate worship from recognizing the goodness of his teaching and try to act accordingly.

Fuck assholists.  Lets see 'em speak out face to face agains muslimes.  They won't.  And again the reason is simple.  Christians may well die for their faith but muslimes are ordered to kill for theirs.  Big difference there and assholists are for the greater part weaklings and prefer to pick on the meek.  It's kinda like when a man goes nuts and shoots up a school or a drug store but these same buttwipes never go shoot up an HA clubhouse.

Because the 81 will shoot back.

I agree overall.  I would make a distinction between Islam and Radical Islam. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 23, 2018, 08:10:27 PM
I agree overall.  I would make a distinction between Islam and Radical Islam. 

To me, there is no difference.  The queeron is a tome of doom, filled with lies and hatred for any and all that refuse to submit to its bullshit.  It threatens its own adherents with death for leaving the lies behind.  It is not patriarchal, it's misogynistic. And still the libtards love islime.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 23, 2018, 08:54:23 PM
This country was founded by believers.  If some don't like that, I say fook 'em.  They need to get used to disappointment. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mentioning the Judeo-Christian God or Jesus of Nazareth.  There is little, if any, difference in the belief of true followers of the Nazarene and the lack of belief in Atheists.  No one is physically or emotionally "harmed" by the symbols of either a Star of David or a Cross, especially the latter of those two as it is the symbolic embodiment of the hope of peace on Earth.


In my life I have asked several muslimes if they would turn in their imam for telling them to blow themselves up in public to take out infidels.  Not a one of them has said anything other than "...my imam would never ask me to do anything wrong". 


Every Christian I have asked the same question about their priest, pastor or minister has said they would turn them over to law enforcement immediately. 

There should never be an official faith of our nation but there is absolutely nothing wrong in basing our laws upon the Judeo-Christian Bible.  islilme's queeron is for batshit crazy pig fuckers and it and it's pedophile followers should never be allowed in our nation or in any civilized country.

I don't fear followers of the Nazarene.  Any that claim to are fooling no one.  They just hate the Messiah because while his word is without question good, it condemns us for our behavior.  Or rather, we condemn ourselves by our acting against his word.  I can deal with that condemnation but then I am adult enough to be able to separate worship from recognizing the goodness of his teaching and try to act accordingly.

Fuck assholists.  Lets see 'em speak out face to face agains muslimes.  They won't.  And again the reason is simple.  Christians may well die for their faith but muslimes are ordered to kill for theirs.  Big difference there and assholists are for the greater part weaklings and prefer to pick on the meek.  It's kinda like when a man goes nuts and shoots up a school or a drug store but these same buttwipes never go shoot up an HA clubhouse.

Because the 81 will shoot back.

This country had slaves at one time as well. We've evolved, science has evolved, we no longer have to believe angry gods are behind volcanoes. The founding fathers didn't want religion mixed with government and I'm in agreement
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on July 23, 2018, 09:05:49 PM
This country had slaves at one time as well. We've evolved, science has evolved, we no longer have to believe angry gods are behind volcanoes. The founding fathers didn't want religion mixed with government and I'm in agreement

Oh yeah?  How come our currency says "In God We Trust".  Huh?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 23, 2018, 09:06:39 PM
Oh yeah?  How come our currency says "In God We Trust".  Huh?

Damn... I fold
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 23, 2018, 09:10:00 PM
This country had slaves at one time as well. We've evolved, science has evolved, we no longer have to believe angry gods are behind volcanoes. The founding fathers didn't want religion mixed with government and I'm in agreement

Never said we had to believe.  I just don't get all butthurt by Christians that have a real faith in the Nazarene.  muslimes on the other hand, are scum.   Like I stated, no National Religion.  FTN.

islime is the national "religion" of fucktard moooslimes.  And again, much of our legal doctrine is based upon Judeo-Christian principles.  It's not a matter of it is what it is, but rather what we choose to make of it.  Libtards tend to make a mess of it no matter what "it" is.  

As pointed out, "In God We Trust".  Not each other.  Not mankind.  Not Buddha.  Not that shitwad allah.  Not the blueish divine four armed Vishnu form of Krishna.  Not...Ah...you get it.  Many of the founders of this nation were believers in the Nazarene and with good reason for at the very least he was the Prince of Peace and a most excellent teacher.

I no longer believe in God.  But I won't lie and say the Christ was without merit.

And some of the founding fathers were Masons.  Now that's some weird shit.  FTN.  And the country still has slaves.  It's called welfare.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 23, 2018, 10:53:40 PM
To me, there is no difference.  The queeron is a tome of doom, filled with lies and hatred for any and all that refuse to submit to its bullshit.  It threatens its own adherents with death for leaving the lies behind.  It is not patriarchal, it's misogynistic. And still the libtards love islime.

I don't think that's fair.  I know lots of peaceful Muslims.  It's the extremists who are the problem.  And the problem with extremists is there are millions of them. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 23, 2018, 10:54:40 PM
Never said we had to believe.  I just don't get all butthurt by Christians that have a real faith in the Nazarene.  muslimes on the other hand, are scum.   Like I stated, no National Religion.  FTN.


Exactly. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 24, 2018, 10:09:27 AM
I don't think that's fair.  I know lots of peaceful Muslims.  It's the extremists who are the problem.  And the problem with extremists is there are millions of them. 

Ask 'em that question about what if their imam...Chances are there would be a very long pause prior to any answer.  Islam means "submit". The Christ allows free will to choose to follow or not without a penalty in the here and now. Islime would have you submit or die.   I have zero doubts that  the mooslimes you know are liars.  Their religion compels them to obey upon pain of death.  You can never leave islime or the rest of the practitioners are compelled to put you to death, including your own family, i.e., "honor killings".  FTN.  The women may only marry a mooslime.  The men can marry any "women of the Book".  Typical lying kuntlette manlets.  Of course by their actions we also know the men can rape any women or children they want to because it's the right of their "culture", i.e., the queeron.

HoMohammed isn't near the Man that Jesus of Nazareth was.  If the Nazarene was as hoMohammed was, I would never have followed him as I once did.

Fuck islime. It is a religion of death. The Nazarene's faith is one of life.  And, if he was actually "He", it is one of Eternal Life.  I know a great many fake christians.  They're the ones to whom the Christ will say, "Depart from me.  I never knew you."  Many of them are without a doubt "pastors, priest and ministers". 

They only rip off their flock or sleep with them and more.  Flase leaders.  Name it and claim it types. Not as bad as islime but still disgusting.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 24, 2018, 10:45:56 AM
Ask 'em that question about what if their imam...Chances are there would be a very long pause prior to any answer.  Islam means "submit". The Christ allows free will to choose to follow or not without a penalty in the here and now. Islime would have you submit or die.   I have zero doubts that  the mooslimes you know are liars.  Their religion compels them to obey upon pain of death.  You can never leave islime or the rest of the practitioners are compelled to put you to death, including your own family, i.e., "honor killings".  FTN.  The women may only marry a mooslime.  The men can marry any "women of the Book".  Typical lying kuntlette manlets.  Of course by their actions we also know the men can rape any women or children they want to because it's the right of their "culture", i.e., the queeron.

HoMohammed isn't near the Man that Jesus of Nazareth was.  If the Nazarene was as hoMohammed was, I would never have followed him as I once did.

Fuck islime. It is a religion of death. The Nazarene's faith is one of life.  And, if he was actually "He", it is one of Eternal Life.  I know a great many fake christians.  They're the ones to whom the Christ will say, "Depart from me.  I never knew you."  Many of them are without a doubt "pastors, priest and ministers". 

They only rip off their flock or sleep with them and more.  Flase leaders.  Name it and claim it types. Not as bad as islime but still disgusting.


I have no doubt you are brainwashed to believe all muslims are zealots. And those that arent, those that are working alongside christians and other religions are just pretending to be okay.. biding their time until they can kill them. It's a ridiculous position, and one that obviously stems from lack of actual interaction with Muslims. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 24, 2018, 11:53:26 AM
I have no doubt you are brainwashed to believe all muslims are zealots. And those that arent, those that are working alongside christians and other religions are just pretending to be okay.. biding their time until they can kill them. It's a ridiculous position, and one that obviously stems from lack of actual interaction with Muslims. 

Well now. It is soooo nice to hear from the Mayor of Amity.

Your position is that of all liberals.  On all fours.  As I have told you before, you and I differ and will never see eye to eye.  Mostly because you've got your head shoved so far up your ass you can't see anything but shit.  Those rose colored glass must've made it an even tighter fit, eh?  Your experiences are not mine, Mr. Mayor.

As for your search for a suitable retirement home?  Try Europe. You may not be WELCOME but certain residents will definitely treat you as though that were written on your backside.


Typist. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 24, 2018, 12:57:49 PM
Ask 'em that question about what if their imam...Chances are there would be a very long pause prior to any answer.  Islam means "submit". The Christ allows free will to choose to follow or not without a penalty in the here and now. Islime would have you submit or die.   I have zero doubts that  the mooslimes you know are liars.  Their religion compels them to obey upon pain of death.  You can never leave islime or the rest of the practitioners are compelled to put you to death, including your own family, i.e., "honor killings".  FTN.  The women may only marry a mooslime.  The men can marry any "women of the Book".  Typical lying kuntlette manlets.  Of course by their actions we also know the men can rape any women or children they want to because it's the right of their "culture", i.e., the queeron.

HoMohammed isn't near the Man that Jesus of Nazareth was.  If the Nazarene was as hoMohammed was, I would never have followed him as I once did.

Fuck islime. It is a religion of death. The Nazarene's faith is one of life.  And, if he was actually "He", it is one of Eternal Life.  I know a great many fake christians.  They're the ones to whom the Christ will say, "Depart from me.  I never knew you."  Many of them are without a doubt "pastors, priest and ministers". 

They only rip off their flock or sleep with them and more.  Flase leaders.  Name it and claim it types. Not as bad as islime but still disgusting.


We'll have to agree to disagree about the distinction between Islam and Radical Islam.  I know the Koran has some pretty wild things in it, but I don't think the Muslims that I know are violent at all. 

But Radical Islam is a clear and present danger, one that I've been talking about for years.   http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=368681.0
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Primemuscle on July 24, 2018, 01:26:28 PM
They should. Keeping peoples personal beliefs in ghosts, devils, and gods out of official government business is a good thing. Private entities are welcome to do whatever they wish

Like you, I'm involved in various organizations that have meetings and annual conventions. A few of these include prayer in the agenda, which is fine as long as no one is obligated to participate. I don't believe prayer should ever feel like an obligation. Praying or not praying, is a personal decision and not one I want government or anyone else to make for me or my family.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 24, 2018, 01:45:43 PM
Like you, I'm involved in various organizations that have meetings and annual conventions. A few of these include prayer in the agenda, which is fine as long as no one is obligated to participate. I don't believe prayer should ever feel like an obligation. Praying or not praying, is a personal decision and not one I want government or anyone else to make for me or my family.

Do you suffer emotional distress when you hear someone pray or see religious symbols on public property? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 24, 2018, 04:45:22 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree about the distinction between Islam and Radical Islam.  I know the Koran has some pretty wild things in it, but I don't think the Muslims that I know are violent at all. 

But Radical Islam is a clear and present danger, one that I've been talking about for years.   http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=368681.0

Like two times in a week I see eye to eye with you. Makes me doubt myself and seriously consider all Muslims are evil
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 25, 2018, 03:16:28 PM
Like two times in a week I see eye to eye with you. Makes me doubt myself and seriously consider all Muslims are evil

I don't care how many times you or anyone else agrees with me.  I don't have a problem being a minority of one.  Nobody dictates what I say, think, or believe.  But I confess there are a handful of folks who help me ensure I'm on the right side of an issue.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Primemuscle on July 25, 2018, 04:24:26 PM
Do you suffer emotional distress when you hear someone pray or see religious symbols on public property? 

You can't be serious. I have no issue with others praying or with religious symbols as long as we the people retain our rights and the First Amendment of U.S. Constitution isn't violated.

 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

By the way, there's nothing in it that states, except Muslims, Jews or Buddhists' etc.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Primemuscle on July 25, 2018, 04:25:33 PM
I don't care how many times you or anyone else agrees with me.  I don't have a problem being a minority of one.  Nobody dictates what I say, think, or believe.  But I confess there are a handful of folks who help me ensure I'm on the right side of an issue.   :)

Birds of a feather....
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 25, 2018, 05:47:10 PM
You can't be serious. I have no issue with others praying or with religious symbols as long as we the people retain our rights and the First Amendment of U.S. Constitution isn't violated.

 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

By the way, there's nothing in it that states, except Muslims, Jews or Buddhists' etc.

Good.  And yes I'm serious.  Go back a couple pages and read what I posted about atheists filing lawsuits claiming to have suffered emotional distress after seeing religious symbols on public property.  Here is one:

Ok.  Fine.  You're too lazy or bullheaded to do just a little homework.  School is in session.   :D

Here is one.  Lawsuit filed over the display of the Ten Commandments:

Plaintiff Sue Mercier is a resident of La Crosse, Wisconsin and a member of plaintiff Freedom from Religion Foundation. When visiting her lawyer's office, which is near the monument site, plaintiff Mercier must sometimes alter her route to avoid seeing the monument. She shops at the People's Food Coop and the farmers' market less often than she would if the monument were not in Cameron Park. When she has viewed the monument, it has "disturbed" her emotionally.

Plaintiff Elizabeth Ash is a resident of La Crosse. She does not attend meetings or events held in Cameron Park because she does not want to view the monument. She does not use banks near the monument. When driving downtown, she avoids streets that would take her past the monument. She has stopped going to Cameron Park to sit in it and read books. When she does see the monument, she feels marginalized and has experienced physical pain.

Plaintiff Angela Belcaster is a resident of La Crosse. She patronizes several businesses surrounding Cameron Park, including the People's Food Coop and U.S. Bank. She has changed her route when visiting these establishments so that she does not park in front of the monument. She no longer has lunch in the park because of the monument. However, Belcaster still passes Cameron Park when driving through the downtown. When she approaches the park, she begins thinking about the monument, which distracts her and causes her emotional distress. The monument's presence and defendant's support of it makes Belcaster feel like an outsider.

. . . .

https://ffrf.org/uploads/legal/LCDecision.html

I'll give you another opportunity to retract before I continue.   ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on July 25, 2018, 07:43:48 PM
There are Atheists and there are atheists.  The former are nothing like the latter.  And the latter are better referred to (as I do them) as assholists.

They rarely (if ever, as I have never heard of them doing this) speak against any religion or faith except Christianity.  Nothing against Buddhists.  Nothing against Satanists.  Nothing against Latter Day Saints.  And while there are more out there, here is the most important religion assholists avoid - islime.  Or as those who are too pussifed to say that term, Islam.  Fuck islime/Islam and it's proponents.

It is against not only the Nazarene and Moses, but even more so against civilization.  And yet scumbag cucktards embrace islime as though it were a haven for all that is good.  You would think that cucktards would ostrasize islime as it loaths women and publicly despises and puts to death, homosexuals.  In private muslimes are the biggest proponents of man/man and even more so, man/boy sex.   The latter can be seen in Chai Boys and how the muslimes so enjoy this disgusting practice. 

Muslimes also bob and weave in pubic prayer daily.  Screaming aloud their devotion to their pedogod and his pedo-profit.   Cucktards scream (and rightly so) about Catholic priests being pedophiles and utter not a syllable against muslime pedos except when caught buggering local non-muslime kids, they are just said to be practicing their "culture".

Muslimes enjoy the practice of murdering family members (usually women) for offenses against the queeron.  They call them "honor killings".  Muslimes can beat their wives/women and not allow them to go out without proper male escort.  And worse.  And still cucktards just love muslimes.

Of course the best example of why not to allow a National religion is shown by Iran and it's muslime bullshit government run by imams.  FTN.

So to those that profess Atheism, I say pick on muslimes before you ever throw an insult at a genuine follower of the Nazarene.  If that is, you're an Atheist. 

If not, you're a fucking pussy assholist.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on July 26, 2018, 01:28:02 PM
If true, these allegations are horrifying.

Ex-city firefghter's lawsuit allowed to proceed

A federal judge has allowed a former Bowling Green firefighter’s lawsuit against the city to go forward.

Jeffrey Queen worked for the Bowling Green Fire Department from 2011 to 2016, during which time he claims his colleagues disparaged his religious beliefs and made racist, sexist and homophobic remarks.

https://www.bgdailynews.com/news/ex-city-firefghter-s-lawsuit-allowed-to-proceed/article_5d44d04d-dabe-584c-b3b0-52c39f71b962.html


Some examples from the complaint:

Quote
During training, Queen was repeatedly asked by other firefighters and his superior officers to identify his church membership.

In early 2012, a firefighter interrogated Queen regarding his religious practices and demanded to know if he had been “saved.” Captain Colson, Sergeant Brad Akins, Sergeant Dale Willis and Captain Steven Daniels were present during and participated in this questioning.

Captain Colson advised Queen that he needed to join a church.

Captain Paul Campbell advised Queen that he needed to get right with Jesus on several occasions in late 2012 and early 2013.

In 2013, Captain Todd Barnard stated publicly that atheists “deserve to burn.” During this same conversation, Chief Frye stated “I’ll be damned if I work with them” and another member of the Fire Department said he was “sure as hell glad none of those fuckers work here.”

In a conversation including Chief Napier, Captain Mike Alexander, and two firefighters, they referred to Muslims as towelheads and said “we need to ship them all back to where they came from” and “let the bombs torch them, they are going to hell anyway.” They continued, stating, “at least they [Muslims] believe in God though, not like those fucking atheists you hear about;…there’s more hope for a towelhead than them,” and “now those are some sons-a-bitches that deserve to burn” and “you know atheist is the anti-Christ.”

While employed at the Airport Station in 2014, Queen was forced to endure bible study sessions during station dinners. These study sessions included assignments to read specified verses and then discuss those verses during dinner.

Queen’s fear that his co-workers would not support him in an emergency situation that required cooperative effort to ensure the team’s safety was increased as a result of this open hostility toward non-Christians.

Queen’s fear was not misplaced. When Queen publicly acknowledged that he was an atheist in early 2016, Captain Smith and a firefighter stated they would “burn his house down.”

On at least one occasion, members of Queen’s crew declined to offer medical care to a man experiencing severe chest pain after determining that he was gay.


The full text of the complaint is available here and contains more allegations:

https://craighenrylaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/complaint.pdf
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 26, 2018, 02:41:29 PM
If true, these allegations are horrifying.

Ex-city firefghter's lawsuit allowed to proceed

A federal judge has allowed a former Bowling Green firefighter’s lawsuit against the city to go forward.

Jeffrey Queen worked for the Bowling Green Fire Department from 2011 to 2016, during which time he claims his colleagues disparaged his religious beliefs and made racist, sexist and homophobic remarks.

https://www.bgdailynews.com/news/ex-city-firefghter-s-lawsuit-allowed-to-proceed/article_5d44d04d-dabe-584c-b3b0-52c39f71b962.html


Some examples from the complaint:


The full text of the complaint is available here and contains more allegations:

https://craighenrylaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/complaint.pdf


I wouldn't call them "horrifying," but if true everyone involved should be fired. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on July 26, 2018, 02:52:08 PM
I wouldn't call them "horrifying," but if true everyone involved should be fired.  

Not surprised. But I think denying medical care to someone because of whatever bias they have is horrifying, particularly if you consider this might have happened in other cases too and might have cost lives. If these allegations are true, just firing these people is not enough.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 26, 2018, 10:00:49 PM
Not surprised. But I think denying medical care to someone because of whatever bias they have is horrifying, particularly if you consider this might have happened in other cases too and might have cost lives. If these allegations are true, just firing these people is not enough.

Denying medical care to someone they believe is gay is horrifying.  Was not talking about that part. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on July 31, 2018, 01:22:29 PM
Trump and Jeff Sessions prioritize religious liberty with new Justice Department task force
by Jenna Ellis
July 30, 2018

The Trump administration has continued to prioritize religious freedom and emphasize its importance globally. Last week, Vice President Mike Pence made remarks to the contingent of foreign ministers at the State Department’s ministerial on religious freedom, saying that America must continue to be the world’s leader on this issue by ensuring domestic religious liberty first. “No one follows a hypocrite,” he said.

Continuing this promise to protect our central freedom enshrined in the First Amendment, the Department of Justice on Monday held a Religious Liberty Summit, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced a new religious liberty task force.

“Freedom of religion has been a core American principle from the very beginning of our country — indeed, it is our ‘first freedom.’ President Trump promised that he would make preserving and protecting our religious liberty the first priority of his administration. The Department of Justice is committed to assisting with that effort,” Sessions said. He remarked that in order to “institutionalize this process” and identify new opportunities to engage this important issue of religious freedom, the DOJ has established a religious liberty task force.

According to the memo obtained by Washington Examiner, the task force will “continue the department’s ongoing work to protect and promote religious liberty.” It will also consider new initiatives, including engaging in outreach to the public, religious liberty communities, and religious liberty organizations, and developing new strategies involving litigation, policy, and legislation, all with the goal of ensuring protection of this key, fundamental right.

Sessions will serve as chair of the task force. The summit at the DOJ on Monday includes a panel of legal and policy experts and a discussion titled “The Promise and Challenge of Religious Liberty.” Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop, who was involved in an important religious freedom case just decided by the Supreme Court last month, is scheduled for the panel.

In contrast to the previous administration, which did not value religious liberty either at home or abroad, the Trump administration’s action should encourage all people of faith and belief systems. This particular emphasis and open commitment shows that religious freedom is a priority to the president. Everyone should appreciate that Trump and key Cabinet leaders are taking action to protect religious freedom.

As Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said at the religious freedom ministerial last week, “The United States advances religious freedom in our foreign policy because it is not exclusively an American right. It is a God-given universal right bestowed on all of mankind.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/trump-and-jeff-sessions-prioritize-religious-liberty-with-new-justice-department-task-force
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 31, 2018, 08:50:13 PM
I'm a fan of Freedom of Religion. I think everyone should be free to participate in any religion they choose. I am a bigger fan of Freedom From Religion where people should be free to not be involved in religious rituals or have their laws influenced by religion.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on August 01, 2018, 03:48:41 AM
The influx of Muslims will make the separation of religion and state even more important.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 01, 2018, 09:17:30 AM
The influx of Muslims will make the separation of religion and state even more important.

Probably... Christians generally want religion mixed in with Government but only if it is their religion
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on August 01, 2018, 10:00:42 AM
Probably... Christians generally want religion mixed in with Government but only if it is their religion

Very true.

This is not a good idea but they don't seem to get it. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 01, 2018, 11:32:24 AM
I'm a fan of Freedom of Religion. I think everyone should be free to participate in any religion they choose. I am a bigger fan of Freedom From Religion where people should be free to not be involved in religious rituals or have their laws influenced by religion.

And again, thank goodness the Constitution and the rest of society disagrees with your extremist viewpoint. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 01, 2018, 07:51:10 PM
And again, thank goodness the Constitution and the rest of society disagrees with your extremist viewpoint. 

So, in your opinion, the constitution is ok with mixing Christianity's rules and regulations with our Government? And as far as numbers... the majority isn't always right, otherwise we'd still slavery
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 01, 2018, 09:24:20 PM
So, in your opinion, the constitution is ok with mixing Christianity's rules and regulations with our Government? And as far as numbers... the majority isn't always right, otherwise we'd still slavery

In my opinion, which is supported by the Constitution, the government is prohibited from establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.  The Constitution says absolutely nothing about "mixing Christianity's rules and regulations with our Government" (whatever the heck that means).  To the extent communities and legislatures are influenced by their faith when pursing legislation, good for them.  To the extent paranoid hypersensitive people are offended when someone talks about faith, I honestly don't care.   

No one made the infantile argument that the majority is always right.  And slavery?   ::)  Hard to have a serious discussion when you throw out crap like that. 

In any event, we don't discount the majority's view and their faith-based traditions that go back to the origins of our country just so we don't cause emotional distress to someone who gets offended when they see or hear about something they don't believe exists.  If you folks want a society that removes all references to God or faith from any public property, then get enough of you together and go pass a Constitutionally acceptable law.  That's how our democracy works.  That's how it should work.   

So while I believe in the Constitution and the separation of church and state, that separation doesn't include the extremist viewpoint you keep expressing. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 01, 2018, 10:32:10 PM
In my opinion, which is supported by the Constitution, the government is prohibited from establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.  The Constitution says absolutely nothing about "mixing Christianity's rules and regulations with our Government" (whatever the heck that means).  To the extent communities and legislatures are influenced by their faith when pursing legislation, good for them.  To the extent paranoid hypersensitive people are offended when someone talks about faith, I honestly don't care.   

No one made the infantile argument that the majority is always right.  And slavery?   ::)  Hard to have a serious discussion when you throw out crap like that. 

In any event, we don't discount the majority's view and their faith-based traditions that go back to the origins of our country just so we don't cause emotional distress to someone who gets offended when they see or hear about something they don't believe exists.  If you folks want a society that removes all references to God or faith from any public property, then get enough of you together and go pass a Constitutionally acceptable law.  That's how our democracy works.  That's how it should work.   

So while I believe in the Constitution and the separation of church and state, that separation doesn't include the extremist viewpoint you keep expressing. 

Meltdown
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 01, 2018, 10:41:45 PM
Meltdown

So you ask for my opinion.  I give it to you.  And you respond with your juvenile analytical ability.  Not surprised. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 02, 2018, 12:25:18 PM
So you ask for my opinion.  I give it to you.  And you respond with your juvenile analytical ability.  Not surprised. 

It was appropriate given the response you gave. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 02, 2018, 01:09:39 PM
It was appropriate given the response you gave. 

Troll.   ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 02, 2018, 02:17:50 PM
Troll.   ::)

Drama queen
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 02, 2018, 02:37:35 PM
Drama queen

You can be a real immature punk sometimes.  But it's ok.  This website attracts all kinds of people and all are welcome.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 02, 2018, 09:00:39 PM
You can be a real immature punk sometimes.  But it's ok.  This website attracts all kinds of people and all are welcome.   :)

I try and deal with people at their level. I could give an efforted answer and you would simply spew garbage about the Constitution supports mixing religion and Government which a 1st year college student should know is not true. You'd also throw out an irrelevant opinion that the majority agree with your wrong opinion. So I ask you, whats the point?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Las Vegas on August 03, 2018, 06:56:22 AM
In my opinion, which is supported by the Constitution, the government is prohibited from establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.  The Constitution says absolutely nothing about "mixing Christianity's rules and regulations with our Government" (whatever the heck that means).  To the extent communities and legislatures are influenced by their faith when pursing legislation, good for them.  To the extent paranoid hypersensitive people are offended when someone talks about faith, I honestly don't care.   

No one made the infantile argument that the majority is always right.  And slavery?   ::)  Hard to have a serious discussion when you throw out crap like that. 

In any event, we don't discount the majority's view and their faith-based traditions that go back to the origins of our country just so we don't cause emotional distress to someone who gets offended when they see or hear about something they don't believe exists.  If you folks want a society that removes all references to God or faith from any public property, then get enough of you together and go pass a Constitutionally acceptable law.  That's how our democracy works.  That's how it should work.   

So while I believe in the Constitution and the separation of church and state, that separation doesn't include the extremist viewpoint you keep expressing. 

Good post.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Las Vegas on August 03, 2018, 07:01:08 AM
Oh yeah?  How come our currency says "In God We Trust".  Huh?

To be fair, this didn't appear until much later. (1950s? or so I think)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Las Vegas on August 03, 2018, 07:03:10 AM
The cemetery and cross story must be one of the most outrageous yet.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Las Vegas on August 03, 2018, 07:12:46 AM
So, if anyone (besides me) wondered: Paper money was 1950s and coins were, first, around the build up to the Civil War - before disappearing for a while.  Eisenhower days caused it to be law, that it'd appear on all US currency.

(https://images.theconversation.com/files/204655/original/file-20180202-19933-1wcwhxp.jpg)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 03, 2018, 09:35:27 AM
To be fair, this didn't appear until much later. (1950s? or so I think)

He was being sarcastic. Communism was the boogieman back in the 1950's and adding Under God to the pledge and In God we Trust to the money was our governments way of fending off the boogie man.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Las Vegas on August 03, 2018, 11:15:13 AM
He was being sarcastic.

I got it now.  Just call me Mr. Slow  :D :D

Quote
Communism was the boogieman back in the 1950's and adding Under God to the pledge and In God we Trust to the money was our governments way of fending off the boogie man.

Hadn't made that connection, before.  But what you say makes sense, 007.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 03, 2018, 11:16:42 AM
I try and deal with people at their level. I could give an efforted answer and you would simply spew garbage about the Constitution supports mixing religion and Government which a 1st year college student should know is not true. You'd also throw out an irrelevant opinion that the majority agree with your wrong opinion. So I ask you, whats the point?

I got you wired now.  You're a partisan troll.  You try and pretend like you're objective and want to have serious discussions, but you really don't.  Your last exchange with me proves that.  I been around here a long time.  I know your kind.  Very transparent.  

My approach in the 12 years I've posting is to have serious discussions with sincere people and give trolls the attention they deserve.  
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 03, 2018, 11:19:24 AM
Good post.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 03, 2018, 04:30:44 PM
I got you wired now.  You're a partisan troll.  You try and pretend like you're objective and want to have serious discussions, but you really don't.  Your last exchange with me proves that.  I been around here a long time.  I know your kind.  Very transparent.  

My approach in the 12 years I've posting is to have serious discussions with sincere people and give trolls the attention they deserve.  

You should go back and read some of your responses to me over the last 6 months and see if it fits your image in your head of how you are...  ;)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 03, 2018, 05:49:20 PM
Oh look, another christian priest molesting children...

Pennsylvania priest pleads guilty to sexually molesting 4th-grade boy

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/07/greensburg_priest_charged_with.html



But wait, there's more... More than 300 in fact...

'Bigger than Boston': What the Pa. clergy sex abuse report could mean

The grand jury report investigating sexual abuse across six Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania names more than 300 "predator priests," according to a court order issued Friday.

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/07/more_than_300_predator_priests.html


And it seems the church tried to prevent the release of the report.

A huge clergy abuse probe is about to go public. Could Pa.'s attorney general be on the verge of slaying Goliath?

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/maria-panaritis/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-clergy-abuse-catholic-church-attorney-general-josh-shapiro-maria-panaritis-20180801.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on August 03, 2018, 08:45:44 PM
Oh look, another christian priest molesting children...

Pennsylvania priest pleads guilty to sexually molesting 4th-grade boy

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/07/greensburg_priest_charged_with.html



But wait, there's more... More than 300 in fact...

'Bigger than Boston': What the Pa. clergy sex abuse report could mean

The grand jury report investigating sexual abuse across six Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania names more than 300 "predator priests," according to a court order issued Friday.

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/07/more_than_300_predator_priests.html


And it seems the church tried to prevent the release of the report.

A huge clergy abuse probe is about to go public. Could Pa.'s attorney general be on the verge of slaying Goliath?

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/maria-panaritis/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-clergy-abuse-catholic-church-attorney-general-josh-shapiro-maria-panaritis-20180801.html

You were wise to use lower case when calling these pedos "christian".  No follower of the Nazarene would ever be a pedophile.  Followers of the Profit HoMohammed on the other hand (the LEFT shit wiping hand) happily embrace the buggering of youths.   

Fuck islime.  And lest you are unaware, I am an Atheist.  Not an assholist as so many here are.  They (assholists) mock the goodness of the Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth but quiver at islime's feet.  Fucking pussies.

There is a vast difference between the Prince of Peace and the pedo of persia.  The former was a great man and the latter a fucking pedo idiot scumbag.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 03, 2018, 08:59:11 PM
You were wise to use lower case when calling these pedos "christian".  No follower of the Nazarene would ever be a pedophile.  Followers of the Profit HoMohammed on the other hand (the LEFT shit wiping hand) happily embrace the buggering of youths.   

Fuck islime.  And lest you are unaware, I am an Atheist.  Not an assholist as so many here are.  They (assholists) mock the goodness of the Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth but quiver at islime's feet.  Fucking pussies.

There is a vast difference between the Prince of Peace and the pedo of persia.  The former was a great man and the latter a fucking pedo idiot scumbag.
News flash. Been years of followers of your Nazarene molesting children   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 03, 2018, 09:37:54 PM
You were wise to use lower case when calling these pedos "christian".  No follower of the Nazarene would ever be a pedophile. 

No true Scotsman.. (pardon the pun)

And lest you are unaware, I am an Atheist.  Not an assholist as so many here are.  They (assholists) mock the goodness of the Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth but quiver at islime's feet.  Fucking pussies.

There is a vast difference between the Prince of Peace and the pedo of persia.  The former was a great man and the latter a fucking pedo idiot scumb

From your writings I thought you are a believer/follower/fan of Jesus of Nazareth.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 03, 2018, 09:39:10 PM
No true Scotsman.. (pardon the pun)

From your writings I thought you are a believer/follower/fan of Jesus of Nazareth.

He is a closet follower
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on August 04, 2018, 08:40:35 AM
He is a closet follower

I respect that which deserves respect and belittle that which is void of truth and morality.   Pussies can't deal with someone that knows hoMohammed was a cuntlette and do their best to kowtow to islime all while spitting upon the teachings of the Nazarene.  I am just as hard on false ministers as I am on shitheaps such as hoMohammed. 


As I've said in the past, you and I will rarely agree upon anything.  There is a genuine separation of Church and State and I have no problem with that.  Never did and never will.  We need only look at islime to know that to make a "religion" into a "national religion" is not only wrong, but dangerous.  In the case of islime it is wrong because both the belief and its followers are disgusting.  When man and religion are linked in immorality nothing good will ever come of it.

In the case of the Faith of Jesus of Nazareth it is solely the domain of men that perverts the Word and not the Word itself.  John was want to say that men may strive for immortality but all too often settle for immorality.  When he believed in the Nazarene he said that the letter "T" was like the cross of Jesus.  To simply add the cross ("T") the word "immorality" was to rewrite one's life for the better.

This is probably over your head but only because you have dug so far beneath the moral limbo bar.  If not, learn from it. You seem to delight in your ignorance and so for the greater part, I leave you to it.

 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on August 04, 2018, 08:44:01 AM
No true Scotsman.. (pardon the pun)

From your writings I thought you are a believer/follower/fan of Jesus of Nazareth.

I may have lost my faith but not my moral compass.  To follow the Christ you cannot be a pedophile.  Those that claim otherwise are full of shit and are more profit that prophet, if you will. 

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on August 04, 2018, 09:34:34 AM
News flash. Been years of followers of your Nazarene molesting children   

You really are ignorant, aren't you?  Typist.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 04, 2018, 10:56:04 AM
You really are ignorant, aren't you?  Typist.

just aware, the No True Scotsman reference by Skeletor was accurate
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on August 04, 2018, 11:16:27 AM
just aware, the No True Scotsman reference by Skeletor was accurate


He has an opinion and is entitled to it.  I don't mind at all.

Regarding the vapid response that some post here in a simplistic attempt at belittlement of others, words without content are just that. Words.  They might as well be pictograms on rocky cliffs in Arizona or New Mexico, i.e., open to interpretation of their true meaning.  Pffffft!  As with many such renderings of primitive art, they are either compelling or confusing with the latter being pushed aside in favor of whomsoever is doing the "interpretation" of said "art".  Getbig exempli gratia?

"Meltdown" is a favorite of the mentally and morally bankrupt here and elsewhere.  More likely just the reality of recognizing personal ignorance rather than the possession of an extra 21st chromosome.  I say this because the truly Genovan among us here are rare.

I cannot blame you for being upset and upstaged by someone such as myself, i.e. of barely average intellligence.  I don't have to agree with someone on every point of view to know they are at heart, good.  I have previously agreed with you and others here on some subjects and have no doubts that I will continue to do so because I choose to out of honesty.

I do find it difficult to believe that you are a retired LEO, but then I suspect you have your doubts that I even exist.

Later.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 04, 2018, 11:51:40 AM

He has an opinion and is entitled to it.  I don't mind at all.

Regarding the vapid response that some post here in a simplistic attempt at belittlement of others, words without content are just that. Words.  They might as well be pictograms on rocky cliffs in Arizona or New Mexico, i.e., open to interpretation of their true meaning.  Pffffft!  As with many such renderings of primitive art, they are either compelling or confusing with the latter being pushed aside in favor of whomsoever is doing the "interpretation" of said "art".  Getbig exempli gratia?

"Meltdown" is a favorite of the mentally and morally bankrupt here and elsewhere.  More likely just the reality of recognizing personal ignorance rather than the possession of an extra 21st chromosome.  I say this because the truly Genovan among us here are rare.

I cannot blame you for being upset and upstaged by someone such as myself, i.e. of barely average intellligence.  I don't have to agree with someone on every point of view to know they are at heart, good.  I have previously agreed with you and others here on some subjects and have no doubts that I will continue to do so because I choose to out of honesty.

I do find it difficult to believe that you are a retired LEO, but then I suspect you have your doubts that I even exist.

Later.


You sound a lot like an intelligent Trump when you claim you upstaged me about something. That is certainly possible, but I don't believe it happened on this page. You hate all muslims and love Jesus. Cool.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 06, 2018, 05:36:00 PM
You should go back and read some of your responses to me over the last 6 months and see if it fits your image in your head of how you are...  ;)

I don't need to read what I've already posted.  I'm talking about what you post. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on August 06, 2018, 07:07:43 PM
I don't need to read what I've already posted.  I'm talking about what you post. 

Some people simply hate the Nazarene because of not only what he taught, but what he represents.  If his word is true, we are judged by it.  If not, as I now think, his words should not matter on a personal level.  By personal I mean there should be no fear of judgment.  However any adult with even a semblance of intelligence should recognize the wisdom in what Jesus said.

Again, there should  be no fear of either judgment or condemnation.  But no...Some people are such fucking pussies that they cannot handle themselves and so they seek solace in their pathetic attempts to belittle the Nazarene and his followers.  I have no problem belittling scum like the fucktard known as Joel Osteen.  He is not of the Christ and deserves to be outed as such.  A name it and claim it cucktard.

These cucks will never accept that Jesus existed and was a man worthy of respect and all because his teachings sometimes convict them of their lives.  Fuck those assholes all the way to Hades.  If they're without confidence in their atheism, they don't deserve pity nor instruction in how to behave as an adult. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 06, 2018, 07:34:07 PM
The Scott, you mentioned you are an atheist but I noticed you write about Jesus (and islam/islime) often and you seem to extol the Christian lifestyle and values. If I may ask, how do you view Jesus? The god of the bible? The son of the god of the bible? A Jewish rabbi? A common man of his time? A man with divine powers? 

In regards to a child abuser not being a Christian, I am sure some muslims could say the same and even discover verses from their "holy book" in an attempt to justify it. In fact we often hear how "islam is the religion of peace", how islam is "tolerant" and allows others to believe what they want while devout mohammedans kill innocent people while shouting "god is the greatest".

Meanwhile, here is an interesting case that also has some relevance to the Police topic. In a state heavily influenced by religion like Utah, a private University owned by the Mormon church has its own police department. That means law enforcement officers with full police powers, not private security guards. The University's lawyers effectively claimed that since its police force was created and funded by a private University (!), it doesn't have to comply to all the the laws (in this case, open records such as the Government Records Access and Management Act) that apply to other police departments.
Thankfully, the judge was quick to shut them down:

"the court concludes that when BYUPD is acting as a law enforcement agency and/or its officers are acting as law enforcement officers, it is a governmental entity subject to GRAMA"



‘Good day for Utah’ — BYU police should be subject to open-records laws, judge rules, in dispute about sexual assault investigations

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/13/byu-police-should-be/

For context, here is an excerpt from another article:

Quote
The case stems from a public records request submitted by a Tribune reporter in 2016 amid allegations that BYU had disciplined students who report sex crimes if they were violating the school’s Honor Code at the time of the assault. The code bans alcohol, coffee and premarital sex, and it regulates students’ appearance and interactions with the opposite sex.

BYU police released some records, but refused to release records of communication between the department and the Mormon school’s Honor Code and Title IX offices.

The university police have said they do not conduct investigations for the Honor Code Office. However, The Tribune has obtained internal BYU documents that show a BYU police lieutenant used his access to Provo police records, via a countywide law enforcement database, for an Honor Code investigation into the conduct of a student who had reported a sexual assault to Provo police.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on August 07, 2018, 04:23:51 PM
The Scott, you mentioned you are an atheist but I noticed you write about Jesus (and islam/islime) often and you seem to extol the Christian lifestyle and values. If I may ask, how do you view Jesus? The god of the bible? The son of the god of the bible? A Jewish rabbi? A common man of his time? A man with divine powers? 

In regards to a child abuser not being a Christian, I am sure some muslims could say the same and even discover verses from their "holy book" in an attempt to justify it. In fact we often hear how "islam is the religion of peace", how islam is "tolerant" and allows others to believe what they want while devout mohammedans kill innocent people while shouting "god is the greatest"….


My faith was with me for nearly six decades and then I decided I needed proof.  It is my decision.  I admit I was influenced by a friend's loss of his faith but still, it was my decision.   I view the Nazarene as a great man.  A holy man, if you will.  A man of conscience.  A superb teacher and more.     There are signs that he was more, for example,  the Apostle Peter died for his faith in the Christ.  No lying sack of shit smellivangelist of today (e.g., Joel Osteen) would die for faith in the Christ.  And yet Peter was crucified for his faith in Jesus of Nazareth.   It is said that Peter asked to be crucified upside down as he thought himself unworthy to die as did his Lord.

It is fact he was crucified for his faith.  It is legend that he was crucified upside down.  Regardless of the latter, Peter's faith was so great he was willing to die for it.  Who would do such a thing for a lie? 

"Greater than this, shall you do in my name".   I have not seen anything done in the name of the Nazarene that equals the miracles associated with him.  If it is wrong to desire proof, then Thomas (aka, "doubting Thomas") was wrong.  And yet he asked and received proof. I have asked and not gotten anything.  To paraphrase - "What father among you, who when asked by his children for bread, gives them a stone?"


To that I would add, "ignores his children".  We have a mind capable of questioning a great many things, not the least of which is how did we all get here.  God used to do all manner of miracluous things in the old testament.  Even in the new testament, there were healings and the like but after the end of the lives of the Apostles, there's been pretty much nothing miraculous going on.  I have heard people who say that miracles are hidden from us by the "media" or by the elusive people known only as "them".  I say BS.  You could not hide the restoration of sight to a blind person.  You could not hide the restoration of life to a dead person.  Where is the proof?  Indeed.  Where?


I am disgusted by atheists undeserving of the name who belittle only those that believe in the Nazarene.  I have yet to hear one make fun of islime or Buddists or Wiccans or anything else not associated (rightly or otherwise) with Christianity.  So I say fuck those atheists.  And they don't like that at all.  Because the Nazarene's message convicts them of their sins, if you will. They can't handle being told they are sinners and so they get their manties in a wad.  Again, fuck them.

Any other questions, please ask and if I can, I will try my best to give a worthy reply.  And the profit hoMohammed was a fucking pedophile, ergo his followers have no problem with it.  The Nazarene was more than that asshole hoMohammed. 

"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."


Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 07, 2018, 06:53:16 PM
My faith was with me for nearly six decades and then I decided I needed proof.  It is my decision.  I admit I was influenced by a friend's loss of his faith but still, it was my decision.   I view the Nazarene as a great man.  A holy man, if you will.  A man of conscience.  A superb teacher and more.     There are signs that he was more, for example,  the Apostle Peter died for his faith in the Christ. No lying sack of shit smellivangelist of today (e.g., Joel Osteen) would die for faith in the Christ.  And yet Peter was crucified for his faith in Jesus of Nazareth.   It is said that Peter asked to be crucified upside down as he thought himself unworthy to die as did his Lord.

It is fact he was crucified for his faith.  It is legend that he was crucified upside down.  Regardless of the latter, Peter's faith was so great he was willing to die for it.  Who would do such a thing for a lie?  

"Greater than this, shall you do in my name".   I have not seen anything done in the name of the Nazarene that equals the miracles associated with him.  If it is wrong to desire proof, then Thomas (aka, "doubting Thomas") was wrong.  And yet he asked and received proof. I have asked and not gotten anything.  To paraphrase - "What father among you, who when asked by his children for bread, gives them a stone?"


To that I would add, "ignores his children".  We have a mind capable of questioning a great many things, not the least of which is how did we all get here.  God used to do all manner of miracluous things in the old testament.  Even in the new testament, there were healings and the like but after the end of the lives of the Apostles, there's been pretty much nothing miraculous going on.  I have heard people who say that miracles are hidden from us by the "media" or by the elusive people known only as "them".  I say BS.  You could not hide the restoration of sight to a blind person.  You could not hide the restoration of life to a dead person.  Where is the proof?  Indeed.  Where?


I am disgusted by atheists undeserving of the name who belittle only those that believe in the Nazarene.  I have yet to hear one make fun of islime or Buddists or Wiccans or anything else not associated (rightly or otherwise) with Christianity.  So I say fuck those atheists.  And they don't like that at all.  Because the Nazarene's message convicts them of their sins, if you will. They can't handle being told they are sinners and so they get their manties in a wad.  Again, fuck them.

Any other questions, please ask and if I can, I will try my best to give a worthy reply.  And the profit hoMohammed was a fucking pedophile, ergo his followers have no problem with it.  The Nazarene was more than that asshole hoMohammed.  

"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."




Jonestown Massacre. Not all but many voluntarily died for that POS. Nothing special there except gullible sheep. Not saying that is the case with Paul, but your example has too many problems. People killed for Charles Manson. His specialty was manipulation.

Personally, the biblical Jesus appears to be a stand up guy. If his followers actually followed his teachings I doubt I would have a problem with them. Most don't.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 07, 2018, 07:01:36 PM
My faith was with me for nearly six decades and then I decided I needed proof.  It is my decision.  I admit I was influenced by a friend's loss of his faith but still, it was my decision.   I view the Nazarene as a great man.  A holy man, if you will.  A man of conscience.  A superb teacher and more.     There are signs that he was more, for example,  the Apostle Peter died for his faith in the Christ.  No lying sack of shit smellivangelist of today (e.g., Joel Osteen) would die for faith in the Christ.  And yet Peter was crucified for his faith in Jesus of Nazareth.   It is said that Peter asked to be crucified upside down as he thought himself unworthy to die as did his Lord.

It is fact he was crucified for his faith.  It is legend that he was crucified upside down.  Regardless of the latter, Peter's faith was so great he was willing to die for it.  Who would do such a thing for a lie? 

"Greater than this, shall you do in my name".   I have not seen anything done in the name of the Nazarene that equals the miracles associated with him.  If it is wrong to desire proof, then Thomas (aka, "doubting Thomas") was wrong.  And yet he asked and received proof. I have asked and not gotten anything.  To paraphrase - "What father among you, who when asked by his children for bread, gives them a stone?"


To that I would add, "ignores his children".  We have a mind capable of questioning a great many things, not the least of which is how did we all get here.  God used to do all manner of miracluous things in the old testament.  Even in the new testament, there were healings and the like but after the end of the lives of the Apostles, there's been pretty much nothing miraculous going on.  I have heard people who say that miracles are hidden from us by the "media" or by the elusive people known only as "them".  I say BS.  You could not hide the restoration of sight to a blind person.  You could not hide the restoration of life to a dead person.  Where is the proof?  Indeed.  Where?


I am disgusted by atheists undeserving of the name who belittle only those that believe in the Nazarene.  I have yet to hear one make fun of islime or Buddists or Wiccans or anything else not associated (rightly or otherwise) with Christianity.  So I say fuck those atheists.  And they don't like that at all.  Because the Nazarene's message convicts them of their sins, if you will. They can't handle being told they are sinners and so they get their manties in a wad.  Again, fuck them.

Any other questions, please ask and if I can, I will try my best to give a worthy reply.  And the profit hoMohammed was a fucking pedophile, ergo his followers have no problem with it.  The Nazarene was more than that asshole hoMohammed. 

"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."




You wonder why? It's because here in America it isn't the Wiccans, buddhist or Muslims trying to push their religious agenda into laws and government. It really is as simple as that. When and if they do, then you will hear atheists raising hell about it.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on August 07, 2018, 07:41:54 PM
Jonestown Massacre. Not all but many voluntarily died for that POS. Nothing special there except gullible sheep. Not saying that is the case with Paul, but your example has too many problems. People killed for Charles Manson. His specialty was manipulation.

Personally, the biblical Jesus appears to be a stand up guy. If his followers actually followed his teachings I doubt I would have a problem with them. Most don't.

My example has zero "problems".  Nero was an historical figure as was Peter.  Nero put Peter to death.  The only problem is yours but you can do as you wish and say what you will.

For you to compare the Nazarene to Jones or Manson...  That speaks volumes.  Make no mistake, you did just that.  If he (the Nazarene) was indeed "He", then I can assure you that you will be among those that hear, "Depart from me.  I never knew you".  And me? 

I am no better...Except I don't lie. You have a problem with the teachings of the Christ because they offend your ego.  You just use his false followers as an excuse.  Or is this just a facade of yours?  Shake it off before it covers you completely.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 07, 2018, 08:03:23 PM
My example has zero "problems".  Nero was an historical figure as was Peter.  Nero put Peter to death.  The only problem is yours but you can do as you wish and say what you will.

For you to compare the Nazarene to Jones or Manson...  That speaks volumes.  Make no mistake, you did just that.  If he (the Nazarene) was indeed "He", then I can assure you that you will be among those that hear, "Depart from me.  I never knew you".  And me? 

I am no better...Except I don't lie. You have a problem with the teachings of the Christ because they offend your ego.  You just use his false followers as an excuse.  Or is this just a facade of yours?  Shake it off before it covers you completely.


Nah, they don't offend my ego. I have no problem with the teachings of "The Nazarene" AKA Jesus. I make observations based on facts. The fact is, people dying for their belief is nothing new nor special
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 14, 2018, 12:59:57 PM
Oh look, another christian priest molesting children...

Pennsylvania priest pleads guilty to sexually molesting 4th-grade boy

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/07/greensburg_priest_charged_with.html



But wait, there's more... More than 300 in fact...

'Bigger than Boston': What the Pa. clergy sex abuse report could mean

The grand jury report investigating sexual abuse across six Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania names more than 300 "predator priests," according to a court order issued Friday.

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/07/more_than_300_predator_priests.html


And it seems the church tried to prevent the release of the report.

A huge clergy abuse probe is about to go public. Could Pa.'s attorney general be on the verge of slaying Goliath?

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/maria-panaritis/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-clergy-abuse-catholic-church-attorney-general-josh-shapiro-maria-panaritis-20180801.html

Nothing to see here folks...

Grand jury report IDs over 300 "predator priests," more than 1,000 child victims

HARRISBURG, Pa. -- More than 1,000 children -- and possibly many more -- were molested by hundreds of Roman Catholic priests in six Pennsylvania dioceses, while senior church officials took steps to cover it up, according to a landmark grand jury report released Tuesday.

The grand jury said it believes the "real number" of abused children might be "in the thousands" since some records were lost and victims were afraid to come forward. The report said more than 300 clergy committed the abuse over a period of decades.

Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro said the two-year probe found a systematic cover-up by senior church officials in Pennsylvania and at the Vatican.

"The cover-up was sophisticated. And all the while, shockingly, church leadership kept records of the abuse and the cover-up. These documents, from the dioceses' own 'Secret Archives,' formed the backbone of this investigation," he said at a news conference in Harrisburg.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/predator-priests-identified-grand-jury-report-pennsylvania-priest-abuse/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 14, 2018, 10:20:32 PM
Nothing to see here folks...

Grand jury report IDs over 300 "predator priests," more than 1,000 child victims

HARRISBURG, Pa. -- More than 1,000 children -- and possibly many more -- were molested by hundreds of Roman Catholic priests in six Pennsylvania dioceses, while senior church officials took steps to cover it up, according to a landmark grand jury report released Tuesday.

The grand jury said it believes the "real number" of abused children might be "in the thousands" since some records were lost and victims were afraid to come forward. The report said more than 300 clergy committed the abuse over a period of decades.

Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro said the two-year probe found a systematic cover-up by senior church officials in Pennsylvania and at the Vatican.

"The cover-up was sophisticated. And all the while, shockingly, church leadership kept records of the abuse and the cover-up. These documents, from the dioceses' own 'Secret Archives,' formed the backbone of this investigation," he said at a news conference in Harrisburg.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/predator-priests-identified-grand-jury-report-pennsylvania-priest-abuse/

No real Scotsman...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 15, 2018, 02:39:30 PM
Is this an example of muslim tolerance?

Jury delivers death sentence for Jordanian immigrant convicted of two Houston-area ‘honor killings’

A Jordanian immigrant was sentenced Tuesday to death for a pair of 2012 "honor killings" that were part of an extensive plot to kill five people, including his daughter, in retribution for her leaving home, converting to Christianity and marrying a Christian.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Jury-gives-decides-on-death-sentence-for-Jordian-13155493.php


This didn't happen in some third world muslim shithole, but in the US:

Boy found at New Mexico compound died in religious ritual, prosecutors say

AMALIA, N.M. — New details emerged Monday about the fate of one of the children found at a New Mexico desert compound raided by police 10 days ago. It came at a court hearing for five adults arrested on charges of abusing 11 other children at the compound.

At the bond hearing for Siraj Ibn Wahhaj and four others, prosecutors presented a disturbing update about his son, 3-year-old Abdul Ghani, whose body was found buried on an apocalyptic-looking compound authorities raided last week. Other children found there told investigators the boy died during a religious ritual.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boy-found-at-new-mexico-compound-died-in-religious-ritual-prosecutors-say/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 15, 2018, 06:15:41 PM
“Priests were raping little boys and girls, and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing;  they hid it all. For decades. Monsignors, auxiliary bishops, bishops, archbishops, cardinals have mostly been protected; many, including some named in this report, have been promoted. Until that changes, we think it is too early to close the book on the Catholic Church sex scandal."

“We all wish more charges could be filed, but due to the church’s manipulation of our weak laws in Pennsylvania, too many predators were out of reach,” Shapiro said.

Sick. But apparently it was not sick enough for some "god-fearing" christians or devout priests who ignored the accusations or covered them up and maybe even disciplined children who would dare accuse the "pious servants of the lord" of such acts.

A small excerpt from the report on the perversions of the men of the christian god:

Quote
In Erie, a 7-year-old boy was sexually abused by a priest who then told him he should go to confession and confess his “sins” to that same priest.

Another boy was repeatedly raped from ages 13 to 15 by a priest who bore down so hard on the boy’s back that it caused severe spine injuries. He became addicted to painkillers and later died of an overdose.

One victim in Pittsburgh was forced to pose naked as Christ on the cross while priests photographed him with a Polaroid camera. Priests gave the boy and others gold cross necklaces to mark them as being “groomed” for abuse.

The report makes clear that few criminal cases may result from the massive investigation.

“As a consequence of the coverup, almost every instance of abuse we found is too old to be prosecuted,” the report said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/08/14/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-on-sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-will-list-hundreds-of-accused-predator-priests

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 17, 2018, 05:11:30 PM
So now we have some paranoid religious extremists who try to "debunk" the Grand Jury report and undermine the abuse allegations and defend the church... Donohue sounds like the people who abused minors or those who knew about the abuse and tried to dismiss it or cover it up. Maybe next he'll start complaining about "christian persecution" and the "war on christmas".

"PA Grand Jury report based on accusations"

https://www.catholicleague.org/pa-grand-jury-report-based-on-accusations/

The attempt to "debunk" the report:

https://www.catholicleague.org/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-debunked/

Quote
Myth: The priests “raped” their victims.

Fact: This is an obscene lie. Most of the alleged victims were not raped: they were groped or otherwise abused, but not penetrated, which is what the word “rape” means.

Quote
Myth: The abusive priests were pedophiles.

Anyone who actually reads the report knows it is a lie. Most were postpubescent. This doesn’t make the molestation okay — the guilty should be imprisoned — but it is wrong to give the impression that we are talking about 5-year-olds when more typically they were 15-year-olds.

Meanwhile, here are just very few disturbing examples from the Grand Jury report.

Reverend Anthony J. Cipolla
Cipolla was first accused of sexually abusing children, specifically, two brothers who were ages 9 (first victim) and 12 (second victim) in 1978 while Cipolla was assigned to St.Francis  Xavier. The abuses occurred in Cipolla' s bedroom in the rectory and also in a hotel room in Dearborn, Michigan. On July 25, 1978, the victims' mother called the Pittsburgh Police Department and criminal charges were filed. Ultimately, the criminal charges were not pursued to a conclusion because, according to the mother, she was harassed and threatened by church officials to drop the charges and to "let the church handle it."


Reverend Thomas J. Bender
In 1984, a known victim reported  that Bender abused him in 1981, while the victim was in seventh grade. The victim reported that he was abused in Bender's bed, where oral and anal sex occurred. When confronted at the Chancery, Bender admitted to abusing the victim.  He was sent  to  psychotherapy but again continued to serve as priest. In 1986, the victim was hospitalized for a drug overdose and subsequently admitted to the Northwest Institute of Psychiatry. The Diocese paid the first week's fee of $4,000. The victim and his family decided to report Bender to legal authorities and also  filed a civil suit.

In 1987, Bender  was put on a leave of absence. He was eventually arrested, convicted and, in 1988, sentenced to probation. Bender remained on his leave of absence until 2002, when he applied for retirement benefits. The Church granted Bender his retirement and provided him a monthly living allowance and paid for health insurance, life insurance, retreat and workshop fees, and car insurance. In 2004, the Diocese received additional reports of sexual abuse by Bender. In 2006, while collecting retirement benefits from the church, Bender was arrested in Long Island, New York, while traveling to meet what he believed was a fourteen year old boy for sex. The "boy" was an undercover detective whom Bender had  attempted to lure to a hotel room in Levittown, New York.


Monsignor Thomas J. Benestad
The victim was nine years old when the abuse began. Correspondence demonstrated that the Diocese reported the allegation to the Northampton County District Attorney's Office, which conducted an investigation and found the victim's allegations to be credible. The victim was taken out of class by a nun and delivered to Benestad in his office. The victim had worn shorts to CCD, which was against the rules. The victim was told that shorts were not proper attire and that not wearing proper attire was sinful. The victim was told to get on his knees and start praying. Benestad unzipped his pants and told the victim to perform oral sex on him. The victim did as he was told. Benestad also performed oral sex on the victim. The victim recalls that, after the abuse, Benestad would produce a clear bottle of holy water and squirt it into the victim's mouth to purify him. The District Attorney's Office found the applicable statute of limitations had expired and no charges were brought against Benestad. Additional complaints have been made against Benestad, who has denied all accusations. The Diocese elected to rely on Benestad's word rather than the word of the victims and the determinations of law enforcement. No attempt was made to remove Benestad  from  ministry. Benestad was granted retirement, resides in Boca Raton, Florida, and assists with a local parish.


Father Gregory Flohr
Flohr's final act of sexual abuse against the victim occurred in November 1969, when Flohr allegedly took the victim into the confessional of the Immaculate Conception church and began kissing him and tied him up with rope into a "praying position."  The victim began to scream, so Flohr tried to silence him by forcing his penis into his mouth. "When the [victim] refused the priest allegedly became angry and sodomized the [victim] with a crucifix approximately 7"x 5"x 1" in size." Flohr then stated that the victim was a "bad boy" and let him go. Following this incident, the victim deliberately set the church carpet on fire.  

There are more particularly disturbing cases, but the paranoid religious extremists will probably dismiss them as well.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 17, 2018, 07:35:36 PM
So now we have some paranoid religious extremists who try to "debunk" the Grand Jury report and undermine the abuse allegations and defend the church... Donohue sounds like the people who abused minors or those who knew about the abuse and tried to dismiss it or cover it up. Maybe next he'll start complaining about "christian persecution" and the "war on christmas".

"PA Grand Jury report based on accusations"

https://www.catholicleague.org/pa-grand-jury-report-based-on-accusations/

The attempt to "debunk" the report:

https://www.catholicleague.org/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-debunked/

Meanwhile, here are just very few disturbing examples from the Grand Jury report.

Reverend Anthony J. Cipolla
Cipolla was first accused of sexually abusing children, specifically, two brothers who were ages 9 (first victim) and 12 (second victim) in 1978 while Cipolla was assigned to St.Francis  Xavier. The abuses occurred in Cipolla' s bedroom in the rectory and also in a hotel room in Dearborn, Michigan. On July 25, 1978, the victims' mother called the Pittsburgh Police Department and criminal charges were filed. Ultimately, the criminal charges were not pursued to a conclusion because, according to the mother, she was harassed and threatened by church officials to drop the charges and to "let the church handle it."


Reverend Thomas J. Bender
In 1984, a known victim reported  that Bender abused him in 1981, while the victim was in seventh grade. The victim reported that he was abused in Bender's bed, where oral and anal sex occurred. When confronted at the Chancery, Bender admitted to abusing the victim.  He was sent  to  psychotherapy but again continued to serve as priest. In 1986, the victim was hospitalized for a drug overdose and subsequently admitted to the Northwest Institute of Psychiatry. The Diocese paid the first week's fee of $4,000. The victim and his family decided to report Bender to legal authorities and also  filed a civil suit.

In 1987, Bender  was put on a leave of absence. He was eventually arrested, convicted and, in 1988, sentenced to probation. Bender remained on his leave of absence until 2002, when he applied for retirement benefits. The Church granted Bender his retirement and provided him a monthly living allowance and paid for health insurance, life insurance, retreat and workshop fees, and car insurance. In 2004, the Diocese received additional reports of sexual abuse by Bender. In 2006, while collecting retirement benefits from the church, Bender was arrested in Long Island, New York, while traveling to meet what he believed was a fourteen year old boy for sex. The "boy" was an undercover detective whom Bender had  attempted to lure to a hotel room in Levittown, New York.


Monsignor Thomas J. Benestad
The victim was nine years old when the abuse began. Correspondence demonstrated that the Diocese reported the allegation to the Northampton County District Attorney's Office, which conducted an investigation and found the victim's allegations to be credible. The victim was taken out of class by a nun and delivered to Benestad in his office. The victim had worn shorts to CCD, which was against the rules. The victim was told that shorts were not proper attire and that not wearing proper attire was sinful. The victim was told to get on his knees and start praying. Benestad unzipped his pants and told the victim to perform oral sex on him. The victim did as he was told. Benestad also performed oral sex on the victim. The victim recalls that, after the abuse, Benestad would produce a clear bottle of holy water and squirt it into the victim's mouth to purify him. The District Attorney's Office found the applicable statute of limitations had expired and no charges were brought against Benestad. Additional complaints have been made against Benestad, who has denied all accusations. The Diocese elected to rely on Benestad's word rather than the word of the victims and the determinations of law enforcement. No attempt was made to remove Benestad  from  ministry. Benestad was granted retirement, resides in Boca Raton, Florida, and assists with a local parish.


Father Gregory Flohr
Flohr's final act of sexual abuse against the victim occurred in November 1969, when Flohr allegedly took the victim into the confessional of the Immaculate Conception church and began kissing him and tied him up with rope into a "praying position."  The victim began to scream, so Flohr tried to silence him by forcing his penis into his mouth. "When the [victim] refused the priest allegedly became angry and sodomized the [victim] with a crucifix approximately 7"x 5"x 1" in size." Flohr then stated that the victim was a "bad boy" and let him go. Following this incident, the victim deliberately set the church carpet on fire.  

There are more particularly disturbing cases, but the paranoid religious extremists will probably dismiss them as well.

They should spend the rest of their lives in prison. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 22, 2018, 02:06:12 PM
RI Catholic leaders oppose latest demand for bill on sex-abuse lawsuits

https://www.wpri.com/politics/ri-catholic-leaders-oppose-latest-demand-for-bill-on-sex-abuse-lawsuits/1383707694
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 22, 2018, 08:40:07 PM
RI Catholic leaders oppose latest demand for bill on sex-abuse lawsuits

https://www.wpri.com/politics/ri-catholic-leaders-oppose-latest-demand-for-bill-on-sex-abuse-lawsuits/1383707694

Thoughts and prayers sent
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 19, 2018, 05:09:44 PM
Chris Pratt Is Unashamed of Being ‘Pro-Christian, Pro-Jesus’ in Hollywood
19 Sep 2018
https://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2018/09/19/chris-pratt-unashamed-of-being-pro-christian-pro-jesus-in-hollywood/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on September 19, 2018, 06:18:14 PM
Chris Pratt Is Unashamed of Being ‘Pro-Christian, Pro-Jesus’ in Hollywood
19 Sep 2018
https://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2018/09/19/chris-pratt-unashamed-of-being-pro-christian-pro-jesus-in-hollywood/

Impressive.  Thank you for the link, sir!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on October 01, 2018, 04:46:26 PM
'Aggressive Christianity' cult leader gets 72 years in prison

GRANTS, N.M. (KRQE) - The leader of a New Mexico Christian cult will spend the rest of her life behind bars for what she did to a child on her compound near Gallup.

Deborah Green led a cult dubbed the "Aggressive Christian Mission Training Corps." She called herself "the General" and dressed like one.

Green was sentenced Wednesday in district court in Grants right after one of the victims gave emotional testimony about what happened on the compound.

The victim further spoke about what she described as years of torture by Green that she continues to struggle recovering from physically and emotionally, adding she's had 11 surgeries to help fix broken bones.

The judge gave Green 72 years for three counts of child rape, two counts of kidnapping and one count of child abuse.

The abuse came to light last year when authorities raided the compound in Fence Lake near Gallup and found 11 children. Some of them were as young as 4 years old and being held against their will.

https://www.krqe.com/news/new-mexico/-aggressive-christianity-cult-leader-sentenced/1477766667
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 01, 2018, 08:35:27 PM
'Aggressive Christianity' cult leader gets 72 years in prison

GRANTS, N.M. (KRQE) - The leader of a New Mexico Christian cult will spend the rest of her life behind bars for what she did to a child on her compound near Gallup.

Deborah Green led a cult dubbed the "Aggressive Christian Mission Training Corps." She called herself "the General" and dressed like one.

Green was sentenced Wednesday in district court in Grants right after one of the victims gave emotional testimony about what happened on the compound.

The victim further spoke about what she described as years of torture by Green that she continues to struggle recovering from physically and emotionally, adding she's had 11 surgeries to help fix broken bones.

The judge gave Green 72 years for three counts of child rape, two counts of kidnapping and one count of child abuse.

The abuse came to light last year when authorities raided the compound in Fence Lake near Gallup and found 11 children. Some of them were as young as 4 years old and being held against their will.

https://www.krqe.com/news/new-mexico/-aggressive-christianity-cult-leader-sentenced/1477766667

People are so narrow minded. It's not about what happens here on earth. this is but a drop in the bucket. It's about eternity. Green obviously had the big picture in mind
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on October 05, 2018, 06:58:23 AM
'Aggressive Christianity' cult leader gets 72 years in prison

GRANTS, N.M. (KRQE) - The leader of a New Mexico Christian cult will spend the rest of her life behind bars for what she did to a child on her compound near Gallup.

Deborah Green led a cult dubbed the "Aggressive Christian Mission Training Corps." She called herself "the General" and dressed like one.

Green was sentenced Wednesday in district court in Grants right after one of the victims gave emotional testimony about what happened on the compound.

The victim further spoke about what she described as years of torture by Green that she continues to struggle recovering from physically and emotionally, adding she's had 11 surgeries to help fix broken bones.

The judge gave Green 72 years for three counts of child rape, two counts of kidnapping and one count of child abuse.

The abuse came to light last year when authorities raided the compound in Fence Lake near Gallup and found 11 children. Some of them were as young as 4 years old and being held against their will.

https://www.krqe.com/news/new-mexico/-aggressive-christianity-cult-leader-sentenced/1477766667

So an obvious, non-Christian, mentally unstable woman masquerading as a "Christian General" committed a bunch of horrific crimes against folks in this compound and is now serving jail time?

Sounds like the punishment is just.

Further the only connection this situation has with Christianity is this woman's use of the term "Christian".  It's just an extremist case force fit as an argument for the ignorant who stand blindly opposed to Christianity.....brillia nt.

My monthly check in is done and GB is still a cesspool of unbelief....big shocker LOL....out.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 05, 2018, 10:31:12 AM
So an obvious, non-Christian, mentally unstable woman masquerading as a "Christian General" committed a bunch of horrific crimes against folks in this compound and is now serving jail time?

Sounds like the punishment is just.

Further the only connection this situation has with Christianity is this woman's use of the term "Christian".  It's just an extremist case force fit as an argument for the ignorant who stand blindly opposed to Christianity.....brillia nt.

My monthly check in is done and GB is still a cesspool of unbelief....big shocker LOL....out.

I feel sad for you that you deem not believing in a supernatural being you can't prove exists, a cesspool. I think it refreshing that people can break the bonds of cult mentality
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on October 05, 2018, 02:57:58 PM
So an obvious, non-Christian, mentally unstable woman masquerading as a "Christian General" committed a bunch of horrific crimes against folks in this compound and is now serving jail time?

Sounds like the punishment is just.

Further the only connection this situation has with Christianity is this woman's use of the term "Christian".  It's just an extremist case force fit as an argument for the ignorant who stand blindly opposed to Christianity.....brillia nt.

My monthly check in is done and GB is still a cesspool of unbelief....big shocker LOL....out.

Well said.  This female creature is no more a follower of the Christ than I but I have the decency to say as much.  As for "cults", a friend once said that a cult is nothing more than a "religion" without political power.

I for one am glad that Christians are finding their political might as well as their collective testicular fortitude.  Fuck liberals for they demand you turn the other cheek when they attack you.    Christians are allowed to defend themselves.


Luke 22:36 -
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.


When I had my faith and someone would tell me they were going to slap me for it, I would tell them to get ready for hell on Earth as I wouldn't tolerate their idiocy.  As such, none ever struck me. 

Only a pussy lib quotes the Bible when it suits them.  Fuck those assholes.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on October 05, 2018, 07:33:33 PM
I feel sad for you that you deem not believing in a supernatural being you can't prove exists, a cesspool. I think it refreshing that people can break the bonds of cult mentality

Maybe he was talking about the stormfrontesque mentality of most getbigger's as being the cesspool? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 05, 2018, 10:23:10 PM
Maybe he was talking about the stormfrontesque mentality of most getbigger's as being the cesspool? 

you think?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on October 06, 2018, 12:58:08 AM
you think?

No, I was trying to put a positive spin on it.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 06, 2018, 03:41:36 PM
 :)
No, I was trying to put a positive spin on it.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on October 26, 2018, 03:00:58 PM
So now local governing bodies can restrict who delivers invocations and only those of "approved" religious association" and "established presence" will be allowed.

New rules restrict who can give invocations before Kenai Borough Assembly meetings

Atheists who want to read an invocation before a meeting of the Kenai Peninsula Borough Assembly are out of luck.

The Assembly voted 6-3 in favor of a resolution at its Tuesday meeting that says the person delivering an invocation must be a representative of an Assembly-approved religious association that fits specific parameters.

The borough clerk will create and maintain a database of qualified religious associations and chaplains that send in written requests to deliver the prayers.

As the new resolution spells out, those eligible to recite an invocation include religious associations "with an established presence in the Kenai Peninsula Borough that regularly meet for the primary purpose of sharing a religious perspective, or chaplains who may serve one or more of the fire departments, law enforcement agencies, hospitals, or other similar organizations in the borough."

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/kenai/2016/10/13/new-rules-restrict-who-can-give-invocations-before-kenai-borough-assembly-meetings/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 26, 2018, 07:54:28 PM
So now local governing bodies can restrict who delivers invocations and only those of "approved" religious association" and "established presence" will be allowed.

New rules restrict who can give invocations before Kenai Borough Assembly meetings

Atheists who want to read an invocation before a meeting of the Kenai Peninsula Borough Assembly are out of luck.

The Assembly voted 6-3 in favor of a resolution at its Tuesday meeting that says the person delivering an invocation must be a representative of an Assembly-approved religious association that fits specific parameters.

The borough clerk will create and maintain a database of qualified religious associations and chaplains that send in written requests to deliver the prayers.

As the new resolution spells out, those eligible to recite an invocation include religious associations "with an established presence in the Kenai Peninsula Borough that regularly meet for the primary purpose of sharing a religious perspective, or chaplains who may serve one or more of the fire departments, law enforcement agencies, hospitals, or other similar organizations in the borough."

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/kenai/2016/10/13/new-rules-restrict-who-can-give-invocations-before-kenai-borough-assembly-meetings/

I predict that a lawsuit will follow and the city government that enacted this rule will lose and the taxpayers will pay for it. It happens over and over.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 07, 2018, 03:33:10 PM
Christians who commit crimes prove the non existence of God, right? ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 08, 2018, 10:46:08 AM
Christians who commit crimes prove the non existence of God, right? ::)

No. Loophole #3004 "While Christians can believe themselves morally superior to non Christians, they are also subject to the sins of the flesh and therefore are expected to sin. However the difference between those covered in the blood of the Lamb, and heathens is, Christians are forgiven for their sins. "
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 08, 2018, 03:41:35 PM
I'm not talking about Christians who believe they are forgiven I'm talking about the atheist false argument that because evil exists or that Christians commit crimes this proves the non existence of God.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on November 08, 2018, 04:20:42 PM
No. Loophole #3004 "While Christians can believe themselves morally superior to non Christians, they are also subject to the sins of the flesh and therefore are expected to sin. However the difference between those covered in the blood of the Lamb, and heathens is, Christians are forgiven for their sins. "

Sheeesh..."Let he who is so painfully and obviously without the intelligence evolution gave a dust bunny cast the first stupid comment".

Yeah...That would be you this time and said comment is quoted above.  ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on November 09, 2018, 02:17:22 PM
No. Loophole #3004 "While Christians can believe themselves morally superior to non Christians, they are also subject to the sins of the flesh and therefore are expected to sin. However the difference between those covered in the blood of the Lamb, and heathens is, Christians are forgiven for their sins. "

Sorry this is incorrect.  Not saying you're incorrect, but that quoted statement is incorrect.

Christians are deemed saints....the righteous....sanctified by Holy Spirit and therefore set apart from the world and all it's carnal desires.

Christ commanded his followers to go forth and sin no more.  

Are we at war with our flesh daily?  Is temptation a constant battle?  You bet, but there certainly isn't an expectation to sin.....the opposite is true.....to seek the will of God and overcome the flesh and be delivered from sin....to hate sin.

We are sanctified in the pursuit of being Christlike.  Christians seek righteousness and hate sin.  

Christ indicated that Christians are to be perfect or complete as the heavenly Father is....to be finished works of righteousness and that's only possible through Christ's salvific work on Calvary's cross....only then are believers made complete.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 09, 2018, 03:28:43 PM
Sorry this is incorrect.  Not saying you're incorrect, but that quoted statement is incorrect.

Christians are deemed saints....the righteous....sanctified by Holy Spirit and therefore set apart from the world and all it's carnal desires.

Christ commanded his followers to go forth and sin no more.  

Are we at war with our flesh daily?  Is temptation a constant battle?  You bet, but there certainly isn't an expectation to sin.....the opposite is true.....to seek the will of God and overcome the flesh and be delivered from sin....to hate sin.

We are sanctified in the pursuit of being Christlike.  Christians seek righteousness and hate sin.  

Christ indicated that Christians are to be perfect or complete as the heavenly Father is....to be finished works of righteousness and that's only possible through Christ's salvific work on Calvary's cross....only then are believers made complete.



Splitting hairs. Can you say with any truth that you will never sin again? Of course not. By default that means you are expected to sin, the difference is, your sins are allegedly paid for by Jesus' sacrifice, mine aren't, So no, I am not wrong. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 09, 2018, 03:31:24 PM
I'm not talking about Christians who believe they are forgiven I'm talking about the atheist false argument that because evil exists or that Christians commit crimes this proves the non existence of God.

Never heard of that atheist argument. There are multitudes of things atheists will say prove the biblical god is fake, that's a new one for me. Though it closely resembles the Christian argument that because an atheist doesn't believe in god, he or she is prone to rape and murder. Had a co worker tell me that with a straight face. Couldn't understand why as a non believer, I wasn't just a moral mess, raping and killing at will since there was no God to hold me accountable. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 09, 2018, 03:32:27 PM
Sheeesh..."Let he who is so painfully and obviously without the intelligence evolution gave a dust bunny cast the first stupid comment".

Yeah...That would be you this time and said comment is quoted above.  ;D


Care to explain why it is in your view stupid, rather than post the nonsense you posted which does nothing but waste peoples time reading?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on November 09, 2018, 06:27:24 PM
Care to explain why it is in your view stupid, rather than post the nonsense you posted which does nothing but waste peoples time reading?

I don't think for a minute you are this stupid.  The Nazarene said, "Go and sin no more", not "Go and sin some more".  But you knew that. 

"Nonsense"?!  LOL!  I write.  You and so  many others here merely type.  A chimp can type.  Don't believe me?  The Queeron is a perfect example of just that.  So are many Op Ed pieces puked out by cucktard "journalists".  As I so succinctly said elsewhere to another misguided miscreant, if you want to try and be a man again, go find your nuts.  Even if you have to look in a bag of Peanut M&Ms.

Shit. Who knows, maybe yours are the toy surpise in a box of Cracker Jacks.  Oooooo...Cracker Jacks must be whitey food.  FTN.  And to Chicago with cucktards.


Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 09, 2018, 09:28:35 PM
I don't think for a minute you are this stupid.  The Nazarene said, "Go and sin no more", not "Go and sin some more".  But you knew that. 

"Nonsense"?!  LOL!  I write.  You and so  many others here merely type.  A chimp can type.  Don't believe me?  The Queeron is a perfect example of just that.  So are many Op Ed pieces puked out by cucktard "journalists".  As I so succinctly said elsewhere to another misguided miscreant, if you want to try and be a man again, go find your nuts.  Even if you have to look in a bag of Peanut M&Ms.

Shit. Who knows, maybe yours are the toy surpise in a box of Cracker Jacks.  Oooooo...Cracker Jacks must be whitey food.  FTN.  And to Chicago with cucktards.




I'll cut through the chaff and focus on the issue at hand. Jesus said a lot of things Christians disregard. Matthew 6:5 is all but ignored. The reality is, Christians are expected to sin. It isn't encouraged, but it is accepted as part of life. If there was an option to live without sin, Jesus wouldn't have had to do what is alleged to have happened. Romans 3:23 backs me up "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 10, 2018, 05:16:12 AM
Never heard of that atheist argument. There are multitudes of things atheists will say prove the biblical god is fake, that's a new one for me. Though it closely resembles the Christian argument that because an atheist doesn't believe in god, he or she is prone to rape and murder. Had a co worker tell me that with a straight face. Couldn't understand why as a non believer, I wasn't just a moral mess, raping and killing at will since there was no God to hold me accountable. 
That seems to be your argument as you point out the Christian's wrongs as a reason God doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on November 12, 2018, 12:30:53 AM
Sorry this is incorrect.  Not saying you're incorrect, but that quoted statement is incorrect.

Christians are deemed saints....the righteous....sanctified by Holy Spirit and therefore set apart from the world and all it's carnal desires.

Christ commanded his followers to go forth and sin no more.  

Are we at war with our flesh daily?  Is temptation a constant battle?  You bet, but there certainly isn't an expectation to sin.....the opposite is true.....to seek the will of God and overcome the flesh and be delivered from sin....to hate sin.

We are sanctified in the pursuit of being Christlike.  Christians seek righteousness and hate sin.  

Christ indicated that Christians are to be perfect or complete as the heavenly Father is....to be finished works of righteousness and that's only possible through Christ's salvific work on Calvary's cross....only then are believers made complete.



If mere belief (unjustified too, since there is absence of evidence, hence the need for faith!) is all it takes to be sanctified, then sanctity is a meaningless term. Membership in a treehouse club is more valuable; at least treehouses have some standards.

Let’s think about why Christ supposedly died on the cross: because god loved humans so much, that he wanted to see them saved. Great. But saved from what? Himself. ???

The whole “Christ died for your sins” thing is irrational nonsense. God didn’t need to send Jesus. He could have said “aww, shucks, you guys. I love you so much, I’m taking back that thing I said earlier, where I basically doomed you all. Sorry, anger issues. I’m in therapy for it and I’m trying to work on myself.”

As it stands, if we buy the story, God sacrificed himself to appease himself and save us from his wrath. Seems rather circuitous and pointless.

I’ve heard legitimately crazy people make up stories that made no sense and are, somehow, less crazy than core and rather mainstream Christian beliefs.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 13, 2018, 08:26:27 PM
The response to your post is about as crazy as your post.

The reason God HAD to sacrifice Jesus is God must follow certain rules. He could not just say "You know what, I apparently made the standard too high for you guys, but I knew I did because I can see the future, so I am going to give you a pass" because he would be in some violation of his own rules.. Never made sense to me. You would think a God could do anything they wanted but apparently this God is hamstrung  by some barbaric  blood sacrifice requirement.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on November 13, 2018, 09:38:41 PM
The response to your post is about as crazy as your post.

The reason God HAD to sacrifice Jesus is God must follow certain rules. He could not just say "You know what, I apparently made the standard too high for you guys, but I knew I did because I can see the future, so I am going to give you a pass" because he would be in some violation of his own rules.. Never made sense to me. You would think a God could do anything they wanted but apparently this God is hamstrung  by some barbaric  blood sacrifice requirement.

I'm not sure I follow what's being said here?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 14, 2018, 03:14:38 AM
The response to your post is about as crazy as your post.

The reason God HAD to sacrifice Jesus is God must follow certain rules. He could not just say "You know what, I apparently made the standard too high for you guys, but I knew I did because I can see the future, so I am going to give you a pass" because he would be in some violation of his own rules.. Never made sense to me. You would think a God could do anything they wanted but apparently this God is hamstrung  by some barbaric  blood sacrifice requirement.
Agreed, the story has too many holes.  I never bought the story that God has to cast you to Hell unless you do x, y and z.  Remember that when the Bible was written people only knew punishment if they were immoral (didn't obey the rules) whereas ethics came out at a later time.  Even if the Christian story is off it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on November 14, 2018, 08:57:15 AM
If mere belief (unjustified too, since there is absence of evidence, hence the need for faith!) is all it takes to be sanctified, then sanctity is a meaningless term. Membership in a treehouse club is more valuable; at least treehouses have some standards.

Let’s think about why Christ supposedly died on the cross: because god loved humans so much, that he wanted to see them saved. Great. But saved from what? Himself. ???

The whole “Christ died for your sins” thing is irrational nonsense. God didn’t need to send Jesus. He could have said “aww, shucks, you guys. I love you so much, I’m taking back that thing I said earlier, where I basically doomed you all. Sorry, anger issues. I’m in therapy for it and I’m trying to work on myself.”

As it stands, if we buy the story, God sacrificed himself to appease himself and save us from his wrath. Seems rather circuitous and pointless.

I’ve heard legitimately crazy people make up stories that made no sense and are, somehow, less crazy than core and rather mainstream Christian beliefs.

Sure there’s evidence for God (you’re replying with evidence), but people just dismiss that evidence out of hand because it doesn't comport with their subjective presuppositions about "what life should be" or “how science is done”.  Ironically, in most cases, these same objectors defy their own scientific requirements for following evidence to a conclusion….when it comes to God they ain’t following nothin LOL.   They dismiss God and thereby dismiss his objective absolutes in favor of their own subjectivity.  God's created humanity self-identifying as their own little gods accountable only to their own subjective standards.  Much like the gender issue.  Sure you can call yourself a woman but your biology, your genetics, clearly indicates you're a man.  In short, calling yourself a transgender woman, a non binary entity, a gender fluid entity or a  toaster doesn't make you any of those.

Still I understand what you're suggesting, but what the argument lacks is recognition of sin, our accountability for that sin and God's righteous justice and judgement.

What are Christians saved from?  God's judgement for our offenses against his law and the eternal separation from him that would follow.  God isn’t saving us from himself….he’s saving us from ourselves so that we may be brought into union with him.  It’s an act of propitiation or atonement on our behalf….an act of love and grace.   Is God needing to appease himself?  Sure, you can put it that way (much like saying “God is magic”…that’s fine too) provided you acknowledge your personal responsibility in that as well, but God needs for nothing.  God is satisfying the demands of his eternal laws put in place for us....laws get broken and justice is required to come after.   Still, God is and always will be just so the punishment will fit the offense.  And our punishment for denying God is separation from him and all that he is….that is hell.  Don’t want no God you don’t get no God.

Saying "so God sets laws and sends himself to die for those that broke those laws is irrational….he should be big enough to just say ‘I love you and all is forgiven’ ".   Does that honestly sound like justice to you?  “Oh you did a bunch of bad crap…..eh, you’re good.”  Do we even function like that in our governments?  We govern ourselves and put standards in place for people to follow.   Sure they’re subjective standards, but we aren’t objective creatures.  Try telling a judge, “I didn’t break any laws because I don’t affirm your law therefore I’m not accountable to it….I’m a free inhabitant.”   Well “free inhabitant” LOL, you goin to jail!  

God sent his son in Jesus Christ to come and live and die as a demonstration for what we lack and what we need.   Aligning ourselves with God’s will is essentially the pursuit of righteousness.  We forgo of our carnal desires and seek his will above our own.  Denying God is denying righteousness and adopting a life of temporary pleasures enjoyed on your terms, but that choice comes with eternal consequences.  Again, God needs for nothing, but we absolutely need him in order to be brought into righteous union with him.

All that said, going back to the original quote, there is no expectation for us to continue in sin.

Dang haven’t type this much in a post on GB in a very long time.  I may not respond for quite some time so please take no offense if you do reply.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 14, 2018, 02:54:19 PM
I'm not sure I follow what's being said here?

The the Christian Apologists stock explanation for your question raises more questions than it answers.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 14, 2018, 02:57:40 PM
Sure there’s evidence for God (you’re replying with evidence), but people just dismiss that evidence out of hand because it doesn't comport with their subjective presuppositions about "what life should be" or “how science is done”.  Ironically, in most cases, these same objectors defy their own scientific requirements for following evidence to a conclusion….when it comes to God they ain’t following nothin LOL.   They dismiss God and thereby dismiss his objective absolutes in favor of their own subjectivity.  God's created humanity self-identifying as their own little gods accountable only to their own subjective standards.  Much like the gender issue.  Sure you can call yourself a woman but your biology, your genetics, clearly indicates you're a man.  In short, calling yourself a transgender woman, a non binary entity, a gender fluid entity or a  toaster doesn't make you any of those.

Still I understand what you're suggesting, but what the argument lacks is recognition of sin, our accountability for that sin and God's righteous justice and judgement.

What are Christians saved from?  God's judgement for our offenses against his law and the eternal separation from him that would follow.  God isn’t saving us from himself….he’s saving us from ourselves so that we may be brought into union with him.  It’s an act of propitiation or atonement on our behalf….an act of love and grace.   Is God needing to appease himself?  Sure, you can put it that way (much like saying “God is magic”…that’s fine too) provided you acknowledge your personal responsibility in that as well, but God needs for nothing.  God is satisfying the demands of his eternal laws put in place for us....laws get broken and justice is required to come after.   Still, God is and always will be just so the punishment will fit the offense.  And our punishment for denying God is separation from him and all that he is….that is hell.  Don’t want no God you don’t get no God.

Saying "so God sets laws and sends himself to die for those that broke those laws is irrational….he should be big enough to just say ‘I love you and all is forgiven’ ".   Does that honestly sound like justice to you?  “Oh you did a bunch of bad crap…..eh, you’re good.”  Do we even function like that in our governments?  We govern ourselves and put standards in place for people to follow.   Sure they’re subjective standards, but we aren’t objective creatures.  Try telling a judge, “I didn’t break any laws because I don’t affirm your law therefore I’m not accountable to it….I’m a free inhabitant.”   Well “free inhabitant” LOL, you goin to jail!  

God sent his son in Jesus Christ to come and live and die as a demonstration for what we lack and what we need.   Aligning ourselves with God’s will is essentially the pursuit of righteousness.  We forgo of our carnal desires and seek his will above our own.  Denying God is denying righteousness and adopting a life of temporary pleasures enjoyed on your terms, but that choice comes with eternal consequences.  Again, God needs for nothing, but we absolutely need him in order to be brought into righteous union with him.

All that said, going back to the original quote, there is no expectation for us to continue in sin.

Dang haven’t type this much in a post on GB in a very long time.  I may not respond for quite some time so please take no offense if you do reply.


Question. IS it possible for a Christian to live his life without sin? If not, then there is an expectation that they will sin. They may certainly try not to sin, but if you know they will, its expected is it not?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on November 15, 2018, 12:13:53 AM
Sure there’s evidence for God

Before we get to that, you need to define God.


(you’re replying with evidence)

I'm just pointing out the irrational and absurd foundation of Christianity.


but people just dismiss that evidence out of hand because it doesn't comport with their subjective presuppositions about "what life should be" or “how science is done”.

Can you please point to this "evidence" you speak of?


God's created humanity self-identifying as their own little gods accountable only to their own subjective standards.  Much like the gender issue.  Sure you can call yourself a woman but your biology, your genetics, clearly indicates you're a man.  In short, calling yourself a transgender woman, a non binary entity, a gender fluid entity or a  toaster doesn't make you any of those.

I'm uninterested in examining this topic in depth (diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that) and while I do believe the generics are certainly dispositive vis-à-vis one's biological gender, several studies that utilize functional MRI have highlighted structural differences in the brain of biological males that identify as transgender. See here (https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027) if interested.



Still I understand what you're suggesting, but what the argument lacks is recognition of sin, our accountability for that sin and God's righteous justice and judgement.

Assuming that the Christian God exists, his justice can't be righteous if he has set a standard for us that is, by his own admission, impossible for us to meet. And if he insists on enforcing that standard, his judgement is suspect.


What are Christians saved from?

The wrath of the being to whom they promise fealty, and the eternal fire and pain he promises in the book you claim contains his eternal and inerrant word?


God's judgement for our offenses against his law and the eternal separation from him that would follow.

Oh boy, there we go with C.S. Lewis' hell-is-living-without-you theory.


God isn’t saving us from himself….he’s saving us from ourselves so that we may be brought into union with him.

No. He is saving you from himself, since he's the one (in your world view) who imposes the punishment. It is in his power (omnipotent as he is) to accept you as you are, warts and all. In fact, it was in his power to make it so you never “fell”, but he didn’t.


It’s an act of propitiation or atonement on our behalf….an act of love and grace.

Love and grace would be to save everyone without preconditions; not threaten with "believe, or else."

If my wife is hanging from the 3rd floor balcony, I'll try and save her; I won't negotiate with her, by saying I'll save her but only if she, first, agrees to make me a steak


Is God needing to appease himself?  Sure, you can put it that way (much like saying “God is magic”…that’s fine too) provided you acknowledge your personal responsibility in that as well, but God needs for nothing.

My personal responsibility in what? Satisfying God's vanity? I don't feel any responsibility to stroke your God's ego.


God is satisfying the demands of his eternal laws put in place for us....laws get broken and justice is required to come after.

It would be both irrational and immoral to pass a law that said "All cats must eat a vegan diet! Any cat caught killing and eating a bird, mouse or other animal will be euthanized." Not only because cats lack the rational capacity to understand, but because our law would be impossible for a cat to follow even if it could understand: cats are obligate carnivores; they must eat meat. It is against their nature to not eat meat.
 
The situation with your God, if the Bible is accurate, is no different. We are told that sin is in our nature; that we cannot meet the requirements of the law that we are being forced to live under. That it is impossible for us because it is against our nature. I submit that punishing us for something that is beyond our control is morally wrong.


Still, God is and always will be just so the punishment will fit the offense.  And our punishment for denying God is separation from him and all that he is….that is hell.

That's a nice bit of apologetics that C. S. Lewis dreamed up: you're not being tortured; just separated from God, which is what you wanted! Let us turn to Mark 9:47-48: "It is better that you enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to be thrown into hell with two eyes, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." I don't know man, sounds very much like torture to me.


Don’t want no God you don’t get no God.

I see Mark's excerpt above didn't do the trick. Let us turn, brothers and sisters, to Matthew 18:8: "And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire."

We aren't just talking about "no God" here. We are talking about eternal fire. Again, sounds very much like torture to me.


Saying "so God sets laws and sends himself to die for those that broke those laws is irrational….he should be big enough to just say ‘I love you and all is forgiven’ ".   Does that honestly sound like justice to you?

The Bible literally says that it impossible for us to live up to the standard that we are being asked to live up to. It doesn't sound like justice to me if I have no choice in the matter.


“Oh you did a bunch of bad crap…..eh, you’re good.”  Do we even function like that in our governments?  We govern ourselves and put standards in place for people to follow.

Yes, we do that. But we put in place standards that people CAN follow. That is to say, we don't pass laws that make breathing illegal. Rather, we pass laws that make the premeditated killing of one human being by another illegal. And, what's more, in our system, in order to violate a law (a criminal law) you must have the requisite mens rea; without that, no crime can be committed.


Sure they’re subjective standards, but we aren’t objective creatures.  Try telling a judge, “I didn’t break any laws because I don’t affirm your law therefore I’m not accountable to it….I’m a free inhabitant.”   Well “free inhabitant” LOL, you goin to jail!

"Judge, I know that running red lights is illegal, and I concede that there is video of me that shows me running the red light at the intersection of First and Main. Your Honor, this is a sworn affidavit by Mr. X attesting to the fact that minutes before this incident, a shipment of nails fell off his truck in the vicinity of the intersection. The nails punctured my vehicle's tires, which resulted in an unexpected loss of control of my vehicle through no fault of my own and prevented me from stopping. I respectfully ask that the Court find me not responsible for violating the statute, and dismiss this ticket."


God sent his son in Jesus Christ to come and live and die as a demonstration for what we lack and what we need.

Are you suggesting that it is possible for a human to be saved on his own merit, without relying on Jesus's sacrifice? Unless you are, Jesus was no demonstration of anything.


Aligning ourselves with God’s will is essentially the pursuit of righteousness.

It's not righteous to punish someone for something that is outside of their control. If it's impossible for us to meet God’s proverbial bar, punishing us for our failure is morally wrong.


We forgo of our carnal desires and seek his will above our own.

At least that’s the theory. But I’ll bet even the holiest man you can think of tried to sneak a quick jerk here and there.


Denying God is denying righteousness and adopting a life of temporary pleasures enjoyed on your terms, but that choice comes with eternal consequences.

If you define God as righteous, I guess that you could stretch denying him into denying righteousness. But there's no objective evidence that is righteous; indeed, several instances in the BIble suggest that he's anything but righteous (Mark 4:11-12).


I may not respond for quite some time so please take no offense if you do reply.

I won't. I know that these sort of exchanges can be very draining. It's 3am here on a rainy night and bed is calling.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 22, 2018, 04:42:54 PM
Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789
Thanksgiving Proclamation
[New York, 3 October 1789]
By the President of the United States of America. a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor—and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me “to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.”

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be—That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks—for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation—for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war—for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed—for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted—for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions—to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually—to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed—to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord—To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us—and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New-York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-04-02-0091
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on November 25, 2018, 06:20:06 PM
Even though this particular example focuses on the technicality of whether the case is a federal or state issue, it is insane that the US tolerates the genital mutilation of children as long as "religion" is involved. Quite interesting also that "prominent" feminist voices are not particularly vocal about this.

Judge dismisses female genital mutilation charges in historic case

In a major blow to the federal government, a judge in Detroit has declared America's female genital mutilation law unconstitutional, thereby dismissing the key charges against two Michigan doctors and six others accused of subjecting at least nine minor girls to the cutting procedure in the nation's first FGM case.

The historic case involves minor girls from Michigan, Illinois and Minnesota, including some who cried, screamed and bled during the procedure and one who was given Valium ground in liquid Tylenol to keep her calm, court records show. The judge's ruling also dismissed charges against three mothers, including two Minnesota women whom prosecutors said tricked their 7 -year-old daughters into thinking they were coming to metro Detroit for a girls' weekend, but instead had their genitals cut at a Livonia clinic as part of a religious procedure.

Nagarwala has long maintained that she committed no crime and that she was charged under a law that slid through Congress without proper vetting:
“The law was never debated on the floor of either chamber of Congress nor was there ever any legislative hearing addressing the justification or need for the federal law. Instead, all that exists is the criminal statute itself,” defense lawyers have argued in court documents, claiming the driving force behind the legislation was one lawmaker's belief that the prohibited conduct was 'repulsive and cruel.' "

But the Constitution demands more than that, the defense has argued, claiming Congress could not have passed a female genital mutilation ban under the Commerce clause because "notably, here, the activity being regulated has absolutely no effect on interstate commerce."

The judge agreed:
"There is nothing commercial or economic about FGM," Friedman writes. "As despicable as this practice may be, it is essentially a criminal assault. ... FGM is not part of a larger market and it has no demonstrated effect on interstate commerce. The commerce clause does not permit Congress to regulate a crime of this nature."

The prosecution disagrees, arguing genital mutilation is an illegal, secretive and dangerous health care service that involves interstate commerce on a number of fronts: text messages are used to arrange the procedure; parents drive their children across state lines to get the procedure; and the doctor uses medical tools in state-licensed clinics to perform the surgeries.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2018/11/20/female-genital-mutilation-michigan/1991712002/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 19, 2018, 05:12:35 PM
Even though this particular example focuses on the technicality of whether the case is a federal or state issue, it is insane that the US tolerates the genital mutilation of children as long as "religion" is involved. Quite interesting also that "prominent" feminist voices are not particularly vocal about this.

Judge dismisses female genital mutilation charges in historic case

In a major blow to the federal government, a judge in Detroit has declared America's female genital mutilation law unconstitutional, thereby dismissing the key charges against two Michigan doctors and six others accused of subjecting at least nine minor girls to the cutting procedure in the nation's first FGM case.

The historic case involves minor girls from Michigan, Illinois and Minnesota, including some who cried, screamed and bled during the procedure and one who was given Valium ground in liquid Tylenol to keep her calm, court records show. The judge's ruling also dismissed charges against three mothers, including two Minnesota women whom prosecutors said tricked their 7 -year-old daughters into thinking they were coming to metro Detroit for a girls' weekend, but instead had their genitals cut at a Livonia clinic as part of a religious procedure.

Nagarwala has long maintained that she committed no crime and that she was charged under a law that slid through Congress without proper vetting:
“The law was never debated on the floor of either chamber of Congress nor was there ever any legislative hearing addressing the justification or need for the federal law. Instead, all that exists is the criminal statute itself,” defense lawyers have argued in court documents, claiming the driving force behind the legislation was one lawmaker's belief that the prohibited conduct was 'repulsive and cruel.' "

But the Constitution demands more than that, the defense has argued, claiming Congress could not have passed a female genital mutilation ban under the Commerce clause because "notably, here, the activity being regulated has absolutely no effect on interstate commerce."

The judge agreed:
"There is nothing commercial or economic about FGM," Friedman writes. "As despicable as this practice may be, it is essentially a criminal assault. ... FGM is not part of a larger market and it has no demonstrated effect on interstate commerce. The commerce clause does not permit Congress to regulate a crime of this nature."

The prosecution disagrees, arguing genital mutilation is an illegal, secretive and dangerous health care service that involves interstate commerce on a number of fronts: text messages are used to arrange the procedure; parents drive their children across state lines to get the procedure; and the doctor uses medical tools in state-licensed clinics to perform the surgeries.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2018/11/20/female-genital-mutilation-michigan/1991712002/

Its really just a matter of extremes. There will come a time when people will stop pretending doing things because they believe  this invisible god demands it is ok or normal. Personally, if someone wants to cut off their hand because they think God said to, or handle a rattlesnake because of some added scripture that is fine.. it's when they force children and others into following their lunacy, it should be outlawed.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on December 20, 2018, 10:41:55 PM
And another one...

The shocking details of his crimes revealed, Faucher gets 25 years: ‘I was one really sick puppy’

Quote
In total, Faucher was charged with 24 crimes: 21 counts of felony sexual exploitation of a child, one count of felony possession of a controlled substance (LSD) and two counts of misdemeanor possession of a controlled substance (marijuana and ecstasy). He pleaded guilty to two counts of distribution of sexually exploitative material, two counts of possession of sexually exploitative materials and one count of drug possession.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/northwest/idaho/article223389105.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on January 03, 2019, 05:41:24 PM
Members of a Jewish sect based in Guatemala kidnapping children in the US...

Jewish sect members accused of kidnapping children in New York

Four members of a Jewish sect have been charged with kidnapping a young brother and sister in New York state.

Prosecutors say the men belong to the ultra-Orthodox Lev Tahor group, which is based in Guatemala. They are accused of abducting a 14-year-old girl and her 12-year-old brother from the village of Woodridge, which is north of New York City.

The men planned to take the pair back to Guatemala after their mother fled the sect six weeks earlier. The woman had reportedly feared for her children's safety and felt the group, which was founded by her father, was becoming more extreme under the leadership of her brother. Its teachings reportedly include that women must be veiled from head to toe in black tunics.

The four men, aged between 20 and 45, are accused of kidnapping the siblings from their home on 8 December and taking them to a small airport near the city of Scranton in Pennsylvania. They were then flown to Mexico, but were located in the the town of Tenango del Aire on Friday morning and have since been reunited with their mother in Woodridge.

Three of the suspects, Nachman Helbrans, Mayer Rosner and Jacob Rosner, were deported from Mexico on Thursday and arrested on their arrival in the US. The fourth suspect, Aron Rosner, was arrested by the FBI in Brooklyn on 23 December and is accused of providing financial support to the group. All of the men have been charged with one count of kidnapping, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46708691
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 15, 2019, 03:26:08 PM
Saints and Eagles Players Kneel and Pray Together Before NFL Playoff Game
By Michael Morris | January 14, 2019

(https://www.cnsnews.com/s3/files/styles/content_40p/s3/benjamin_watson_nick_foles_other_saints_and_eagles_praying_on_field_facebook_screenshot_0.jpg?itok=F0vTYvnu)
Outspoken Christians TE Benjamin Watson and Nick Foles join Saints and Eagles teammates in NFL Playoffs Divisional round to kneel in prayer on the field. (Screenshot)

In the NFL Playoffs Divisional round matchup between the New Orleans Saints and the Philadelphia Eagles, Saints Tight End Benjamin Watson, Eagles quarterback Nick Foles, and numerous other players from both squads, knelt, linked arms and prayed together on the field.

Saints TE Watson and Eagles backup QB Foles are both outspoken Christians.

In a post on his Facebook page, Benjamin Watson said about his brothers from Philly, “I have a great amount of respect for our brothers in Philly. They have been steadfast in faith and their influence has gone far beyond the field. #MeetUsAtThe50”

Watson also included Scripture in the post:

“I have set the LORD continually before me; Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.”
Psalms 16:8

The Saints would go on to win the Divisional round matchup between the Saints and the Eagles by a score of 20-14.

TE Watson had one reception for 12 yards on the game, while QB Nick Foles went 18/31 for 201 yards with one touchdown and two interceptions, according to the New Orleans Saints website.

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-morris/benjamin-watson-saints-and-eagles-players-kneel-pray-together-nfl-divisional
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on January 15, 2019, 08:14:59 PM
And?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on January 15, 2019, 08:28:17 PM
And?

And go fuck your fake LEO self.   There's your "and".   You're like Wiggs only twice as smart.  Of course that's still dumber than a box of cat shit.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on January 15, 2019, 08:33:01 PM
And go fuck your fake LEO self.   There's your "and".   You're like Wiggs only twice as smart.  Of course that's still dumber than a box of cat shit.

The Scott is in rare form tonight  :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on January 15, 2019, 08:33:48 PM
And go fuck your fake LEO self.   There's your "and".   You're like Wiggs only twice as smart.  Of course that's still dumber than a box of cat shit.

You say Fake LEO... how sure are you I am fake and what are you willing to bet?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on January 16, 2019, 06:46:20 PM
You say Fake LEO... how sure are you I am fake and what are you willing to bet?


Your words speak volumes and identify you as not being remotely LEO. 

As for making a "bet"?  Do not be a child. I've told you before that we shall never meet. I've been in Miami several times and have zero desire to shake your hand as I think we would not come close to getting along.  What would be the point?

There is no point.

When I agree with you on a subject it is simply because I agree with you on that particular matter.  When I do not, it is because I do not. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on February 01, 2019, 06:22:16 PM
Catholic Church in Texas Names Nearly 300 Priests Accused of Sex Abuse

The Roman Catholic Church in Texas on Thursday released the names of almost 300 priests who it said had been credibly accused of child sex abuse over nearly eight decades.

The action was the latest in a wave of disclosures by the church as it faces a series of federal and state investigations into its handling of sexual misconduct.

The names were posted online by all 15 of the state’s dioceses and followed the publication in August of a bombshell report on clerical sex abuse by the Pennsylvania attorney general that has spurred investigations of the church in more than a dozen other states.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/us/priests-abuse-texas.html


MAP: Here are the lists of Catholic priests in Texas 'credibly accused' of sexual abuse

https://www.click2houston.com/news/catholic-church/here-are-the-lists-of-credibly-accused-catholic-priests-in-texas
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on February 03, 2019, 01:17:36 PM

Couple and teen arrested in death of boy, 7, after punishing him over Bible verses

A Wisconsin couple and their son have been arrested in the death of a 7-year-old boy in their care, after they allegedly punished him for not memorizing Bible verses.

Timothy and Tina Hauschultz and their 15-year-old son made the 7-year-old, whose name was Ethan, hold a 44-pound log for two hours every day for a week, Newsweek reports. While being monitored during his punishment, a medical examiner believes that the teen hit and kicked the younger boy 100 times, rolled the heavy log over his chest and stood on his head and body while Ethan was face-down in a puddle. He then allegedly buried him in "his own little coffin of snow." Ethan died in April 2018 of hypothermia and blunt force trauma.

The Hauschultz's son has been charged with first-degree reckless homicide, while his father Timothy, 48, is charged with felony murder and felony contributing to the delinquency of a child. Both the father and son face an additional number of charges. Tina, 35, is charged with failing to prevent bodily harm and intentionally contributing to the delinquency of a child.

It's not known how the Hauschultz's are related to Ethan, but Timothy and Tina are listed as his court-appointed guardians, along with two of his siblings, including his twin.

The 15-year-old told police that he was put in charge of supervising Ethan and his twin, who were both undergoing the punishment of carrying logs for not knowing 13 Bible verses of Timothy's choosing. Ethan's birth mother, Andrea Everett, spoke out after the boy's death in April.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/couple-and-teen-arrested-for-death-of-boy-7-after-punishing-him-over-memorizing-bible-verses
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on February 04, 2019, 08:51:54 PM
Couple and teen arrested in death of boy, 7, after punishing him over Bible verses

A Wisconsin couple and their son have been arrested in the death of a 7-year-old boy in their care, after they allegedly punished him for not memorizing Bible verses.

Timothy and Tina Hauschultz and their 15-year-old son made the 7-year-old, whose name was Ethan, hold a 44-pound log for two hours every day for a week, Newsweek reports. While being monitored during his punishment, a medical examiner believes that the teen hit and kicked the younger boy 100 times, rolled the heavy log over his chest and stood on his head and body while Ethan was face-down in a puddle. He then allegedly buried him in "his own little coffin of snow." Ethan died in April 2018 of hypothermia and blunt force trauma.

The Hauschultz's son has been charged with first-degree reckless homicide, while his father Timothy, 48, is charged with felony murder and felony contributing to the delinquency of a child. Both the father and son face an additional number of charges. Tina, 35, is charged with failing to prevent bodily harm and intentionally contributing to the delinquency of a child.

It's not known how the Hauschultz's are related to Ethan, but Timothy and Tina are listed as his court-appointed guardians, along with two of his siblings, including his twin.

The 15-year-old told police that he was put in charge of supervising Ethan and his twin, who were both undergoing the punishment of carrying logs for not knowing 13 Bible verses of Timothy's choosing. Ethan's birth mother, Andrea Everett, spoke out after the boy's death in April.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/couple-and-teen-arrested-for-death-of-boy-7-after-punishing-him-over-memorizing-bible-verses

That cun't should be charged as harsh as the man. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on February 10, 2019, 05:04:21 PM
Hundreds of Southern Baptist leaders, volunteers accused of sexual misconduct in bombshell investigation

Hundreds of leaders and volunteers within Southern Baptist churches across the nation have been accused of sexual misconduct against young churchgoers for decades - many of them quietly returning to church roles even after being convicted for sex crimes.

A bombshell investigation by the Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express-News found that over the last 20 years, about 380 Southern Baptist church leaders and volunteers have faced credible accusations of sexual misconduct. Of those, roughly 220 were convicted of sex crimes or received plea deals, in cases involving more than 700 victims in all, the report found. Many accusers were young men and women, who allegedly experienced everything from exposure to pornography to rape and impregnation at the hands of church members.

The newspapers reported that the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) largely treated the accusations as isolated issues, and took on an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality, even amid growing pressures to create a registry so the accusations wouldn't disappear as alleged perpetrators moved from city to city. The Chronicle and Express-News created a database of convicted sexual abusers with documented connections to the SBC.

The investigation took over six months and involved the cross-examination of hundreds of allegations corroborated by court documents and prison records. The results were startling and reiterated how allegations of sexual misconduct aren't limited to just the Catholic church.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/hundreds-of-southern-baptist-church-leaders-volunteers-accused-sexual-misconduct
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on February 18, 2019, 12:56:01 PM
Inside the horrifying, unspoken world of sexually abusive nuns

It’s the line from scripture that stayed with Cait Finnegan for nearly half a century as she tried to suppress the painful memories of the sexual abuse she says she suffered at the hands of her Catholic clergy educator.

“God is Love,” Sister Mary Juanita Barto told Finnegan as she repeatedly raped her in classrooms at Mater Christi High School in Queens in the late 1960s.

The abuse began when Finnegan was 15 and continued throughout her high school years — on school buses to out-of-town sporting events, at religious retreats in upstate New York, at Finnegan’s childhood home in Woodside and at a Long Island convent.

Dispenza, who spent 15 years in a habit before becoming an activist against the Catholic church, is bracing for an onslaught of cases against nuns, who typically run schools and orphanages, and spend exponentially more time with children than priests. They also far outnumber priests. There are 55,944 nuns in the US and 41,406 priests, according to statistics compiled by SNAP.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/16/inside-the-horrifying-unspoken-world-of-sexually-abusive-nuns/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on February 26, 2019, 03:49:17 PM
A high ranking member of the Catholic church has been found guilty of child abuse. Last year, a judge handed down a legal order which prevented any reporting of Pell's trial and conviction in Australian media.

George Pell: Cardinal found guilty of sexual offences in Australia

Cardinal George Pell has been found guilty in Australia of sexual offences against children, making him the highest-ranking Catholic figure to receive such a conviction. Pell abused two choir boys in Melbourne's cathedral in 1996, a jury found. He had pleaded not guilty.

As Vatican treasurer, the 77-year-old Australian was widely seen as the Church's third most powerful official. Pell, due to face sentencing hearings from Wednesday, has lodged an appeal.

His trial was heard twice last year because a first jury failed to reach a verdict. A second jury unanimously convicted him of one charge of sexually penetrating a child under 16, and four counts of committing an indecent act on a child under 16. The verdict was handed down in December, but it could not be reported until now for legal reasons.

Who is Pell?

The Australian cleric rose in prominence as a strong supporter of traditional Catholic values, often taking conservative views and advocating for priestly celibacy. He was summoned to Rome in 2014 to clean up the Vatican's finances, and was often described as the Church's third-ranked official.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-47366113

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on February 26, 2019, 03:53:33 PM
As if all these revelations and convictions about this pedophile organization are not enough, now it turns out the Catholic church also destroyed files related to abuse.

Cardinal admits to Vatican summit that Catholic Church destroyed abuse files

A top cardinal has admitted that the global Catholic Church destroyed files to prevent documentation of decades of sexual abuse of children, telling the prelates attending Pope Francis' clergy abuse summit Feb. 23 that such maladministration led "in no small measure" to more children being harmed.

In a frank speech to the 190 cardinals, bishops and heads of religious orders taking part in the four-day summit, German Cardinal Reinhard Marx said the church's administration had left victims' rights "trampled underfoot" and "made it impossible" for the worldwide institution to fulfill its mission.

"Files that could have documented the terrible deeds and named those responsible were destroyed, or not even created," said Marx, beginning a list of a number of practices that survivors have documented for years but church officials have long kept under secret.

"Instead of the perpetrators, the victims were regulated and silence imposed on them," the cardinal continued. "The stipulated procedures and processes for the prosecution of offences were deliberately not complied with, but instead cancelled or overridden."

https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/cardinal-admits-vatican-summit-catholic-church-destroyed-abuse-files
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on March 06, 2019, 01:41:09 PM
But he attended the church's "child protection training program"...

Philadelphia priest charged with raping girl, recording their sex acts

A suspended Catholic priest has been charged with raping a teenage girl at his former Roxborough parish and recording their sexual encounter five years ago. Sources familiar with the investigation said the charges stemmed from Garcia’s relationship with an altar girl at Immaculate Heart Parish in Roxborough, with whom investigators believe he had sexual contact starting when she was about 16.

Garcia, now 49, allegedly offered her alcohol or marijuana during encounters over a period of years in the parish rectory, his living quarters, and other locations, said those sources, who were not authorized to discuss the case publicly.

Garcia’s arrest comes as the Catholic Church grapples with a global resurgence of the clergy sex-abuse crisis kicked off in part by last year’s grand jury report implicating hundreds of Pennsylvania priests and their superiors in decades of abuse and cover-up. Ordained in 2005, Garcia had passed a background check and had attended child protection training programs that the Archdiocese of Philadelphia requires for all priests, said archdiocesan spokesperson Kenneth Gavin in a statement Tuesday.

https://www.philly.com/news/armand-garcia-charged-arrested-priest-sex-abuse-philadelphia-archdiocese-20190305.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Tbomzisback! on March 06, 2019, 07:37:04 PM
Unfortunately, being a Christian does not mean you will necessarily be a good person. The Bible is very clear about that. It is no surprise, then, that so many Christians are engaged in such terrible behavior.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on March 06, 2019, 07:43:39 PM
Unfortunately, being a Christian does not mean you will necessarily be a good person. The Bible is very clear about that. It is no surprise, then, that so many Christians are engaged in such terrible behavior.

Don't be pathetic. Being a Christian means you don't engage in such deviancy.  The Word is quite clear.  You however are fuzzy.

You do not follow the Nazarene. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on March 06, 2019, 08:17:40 PM
Don't be pathetic. Being a Christian means you don't engage in such deviancy.  The Word is quite clear.  You however are fuzzy.

You do not follow the Nazarene. 

He takes it up the ass.  Big Mike Cox style.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on March 07, 2019, 07:28:35 AM
He takes it up the ass.  Big Mike Cox style.

If he is really  "tbomz", then yup.  He put his anus out there as a toll road.  My point being is he doesn't know the Nazarene.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 07, 2019, 10:43:00 AM
Don't be pathetic. Being a Christian means you don't engage in such deviancy.  The Word is quite clear.  You however are fuzzy.

You do not follow the Nazarene. 

Good post
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on March 08, 2019, 03:01:01 PM
Texas judge interrupts jury, says God told him defendant is not guilty

A state district judge in Comal County said God told him to intervene in jury deliberations to sway jurors to return a not guilty verdict in the trial of a Buda woman accused of trafficking a teen girl for sex.

Judge Jack Robison apologized to jurors for the interruption, but defended his actions by telling them “when God tells me I gotta do something, I gotta do it,” according to the Herald-Zeitung in New Braunfels.

The jury went against the judge’s wishes, finding Gloria Romero-Perez guilty of continuous trafficking of a person and later sentenced her to 25 years in prison. They found her not guilty of a separate charge of sale or purchase of a child.

http://www.statesman.com/news/crime--law/texas-judge-interrupts-jury-says-god-told-him-defendant-not-guilty/ZRdGbT7xPu7lc6kMMPeWKL/

As expected he got off lightly and instead of being booted off the bench or sent to prison he received a "public warning".

Judge says God told him that sex trafficking suspect was innocent

A Texas district court judge received a public warning after he told the jury to keep deliberating over a defendant they convicted because God told him she was innocent.

Comal County Judge Jack Robison reported himself to the Texas Commission on Judicial Conduct after the outburst on Jan. 12, 2018, according to the committee's disciplinary document.

https://www.wmtw.com/article/judge-says-god-told-him-that-sex-trafficking-suspect-was-innocent/26713644

Quote
The Commission concludes from the facts and evidence presented that Judge Robison engaged in improper ex parte communications with the jury in violation of Canon 3B(8) of the Texas Code of Judicial Conduct and engaged in conduct that cast public discredit upon the judiciary and the administration of justice, in violation of article V, §1-a(6)A of the Texas Constitution. The Commission concludes based on the facts and evidence presented that Judge Robison exhibited prejudice against the prosecution and bias in favor of the defense during the trial in violation of Canon 3B(5) of the Texas Code of Judicial Conduct and that the Judge's failure to timely recuse himself from the matter constitured violations of Canons 2A, 3B(1) and 3B(2) of the Texas Code of Judicial Conduct.

http://scjc.texas.gov/media/46720/robison18-0510etalpubwarn22019.pdf

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 11, 2019, 06:12:32 PM
New Harvard Research Says U.S. Christianity Is Not Shrinking, But Growing Stronger
Is churchgoing and religious adherence really in ‘widespread decline’ so much so that conservative believers should suffer ‘growing anxiety’? Absolutely not.
Glenn T. Stanton By Glenn T. Stanton
JANUARY 22, 2018

“Meanwhile, a widespread decline in churchgoing and religious affiliation had contributed to a growing anxiety among conservative believers.” Statements like this are uttered with such confidence and frequency that most Americans accept them as uncontested truisms. This one emerged just this month in an exceedingly silly article in The Atlantic on Vice President Mike Pence.

Religious faith in America is going the way of the Yellow Pages and travel maps, we keep hearing. It’s just a matter of time until Christianity’s total and happy extinction, chortle our cultural elites. Is this true? Is churchgoing and religious adherence really in “widespread decline” so much so that conservative believers should suffer “growing anxiety”?

Two words: Absolutely not.

New research published late last year by scholars at Harvard University and Indiana University Bloomington is just the latest to reveal the myth. This research questioned the “secularization thesis,” which holds that the United States is following most advanced industrial nations in the death of their once vibrant faith culture. Churches becoming mere landmarks, dance halls, boutique hotels, museums, and all that.

Not only did their examination find no support for this secularization in terms of actual practice and belief, the researchers proclaim that religion continues to enjoy “persistent and exceptional intensity” in America. These researchers hold our nation “remains an exceptional outlier and potential counter example to the secularization thesis.”

What Accounts for the Difference in Perceptions?
How can their findings appear so contrary to what we have been hearing from so many seemingly informed voices? It comes down primarily to what kind of faith one is talking about. Not the belief system itself, per se, but the intensity and seriousness with which people hold and practice that faith.

Mainline churches are tanking as if they have super-sized millstones around their necks. Yes, these churches are hemorrhaging members in startling numbers, but many of those folks are not leaving Christianity. They are simply going elsewhere. Because of this shifting, other very different kinds of churches are holding strong in crowds and have been for as long as such data has been collected. In some ways, they are even growing. This is what this new research has found.

The percentage of Americans who attend church more than once a week, pray daily, and accept the Bible as wholly reliable and deeply instructive to their lives has remained absolutely, steel-bar constant for the last 50 years or more, right up to today. These authors describe this continuity as “patently persistent.”

The percentage of such people is also not small. One in three Americans prays multiple times a day, while one in 15 do so in other countries on average. Attending services more than once a week continues to be twice as high among Americans compared to the next highest-attending industrial country, and three times higher than the average comparable nation.

One-third of Americans hold that the Bible is the actual word of God. Fewer than 10 percent believe so in similar countries. The United States “clearly stands out as exceptional,” and this exceptionalism has not been decreasing over time. In fact, these scholars determine that the percentages of Americans who are the most vibrant and serious in their faith is actually increasing a bit, “which is making the United States even more exceptional over time.”

This also means, of course, that those who take their faith seriously are becoming a markedly larger proportion of all religious people. In 1989, 39 percent of those who belonged to a religion held strong beliefs and practices. Today, these are 47 percent of all the religiously affiliated. This all has important implications for politics, indicating that the voting bloc of religious conservatives is not shrinking, but actually growing among the faithful. The declining influence of liberal believers at the polls has been demonstrated in many important elections recently.

These Are Not Isolated Findings
The findings of these scholars are not outliers. There has been a growing gulf between the faithful and the dabblers for quite some time, with the first group growing more numerous. Think about the church you attend, relative to its belief system. It is extremely likely that if your church teaches the Bible with seriousness, calls its people to real discipleship, and encourages daily intimacy with God, it has multiple services to handle the coming crowds.

Most decent-size American cities have a treasure trove of such churches for believers to choose from. This shows no sign of changing. If, however, your church is theologically liberal or merely lukewarm, it’s likely laying off staff and wondering how to pay this month’s light bill. People are navigating toward substantive Christianity.

The folks at Pew have been reporting for years that while the mainline churches are in drastic free fall, the group that “shows the most significant growth is the nondenominational family.” Of course, these nondenominational churches are 99.9 percent thorough-blooded evangelical. Pew also notes that “evangelical Protestantism and the historically black Protestant tradition have been more stable” over the years, with even a slight uptick in the last decade because many congregants leaving the mainline churches are migrating to evangelical churches that hold fast to the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

When the so-called “progressive” churches question the historicity of Jesus, deny the reality of sin, support abortion, ordain clergy in same-sex relationships and perform their marriages, people desiring real Christianity head elsewhere. Fact: evangelical churches gain five new congregants exiled from the liberal churches for every one they lose for any reason. They also do a better job of retaining believers from childhood to adulthood than do mainline churches.

The Other Key Factor: Faithful People Grow More Children
There is another factor at work here beyond orthodox belief. The University of London’s Eric Kaufmann explains in his important book “Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?” (he says yes) that the sustaining vitality, and even significant per capita growth, of serious Christian belief is as firmly rooted in fertility as it is in faithful teaching and evangelism. Globally, he says that the more robust baby-making practices of orthodox Jews and Christians, as opposed to the baby-limiting practices of liberals, create many more seriously religious people than a secular agenda can keep up with.

The growth of serious Christian belief is as firmly rooted in fertility as it is in faithful teaching and evangelism.
Fertility determines who influences the future in many important ways. He puts it bluntly, “The secular West and East Asia are aging and their share of the world population declining. This means the world is getting more religious even as people in the rich world shed their faith.”

Fertility is as important as fidelity for Christianity and Judaism’s triumph from generation to generation. Kaufmann contends, “Put high fertility and [faith] retention rates together with general population decline and you have a potent formula for change.”

It comes down to this: God laughs at the social Darwinists. Their theory is absolutely true, but just not in the way they think. Those who have the babies and raise and educate them well tend to direct the future of humanity. Serious Christians are doing this. Those redefining the faith and reality itself are not.

This why Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart proclaimed in First Things, long before the proposal of the Benedict Option, that the most “subversive and effective strategy we might undertake [to counter the culture] would be one of militant fecundity: abundant, relentless, exuberant, and defiant childbearing.” The future rests in the hands of the fertile.

What About All the Millennial Ex-Christians?
But what about our young people? We are constantly hearing that young people are “leaving the church in droves,” followed by wildly disturbing statistics. This also requires a closer look at who is actually leaving and from where. Pew reports that of young adults who left their faith, only 11 percent said they had a strong faith in childhood while 89 percent said they came from a home that had a very weak faith in belief and practice.

It’s not a news flash that kids don’t tend to hang onto what they never had in the first place. Leading sociologist of religion Christopher Smith has found through his work that most emerging adults “report little change in how religious they have been in the previous five years.” He surprisingly also found that those who do report a change say they have been more religious, not less. This certainly does not mean there is a major revival going on among young adults, but nor does it mean the sky is falling.

Add to this Rodney Stark’s warning that we should not confuse leaving the faith with attending less often. He and other scholars report that young adults begin to attend church less often in their “independent years” and have always done so for as long back as such data has been collected. It’s part of the nature of emerging adulthood. Just as sure as these young people do other things on Sunday morning, the leading sociologists of religion find they return to church when they get married, have children, and start to live a real adult life. It’s like clockwork and always has been. However, the increasing delay among young adults in entering marriage and family is likely lengthening this gap today.

More Americans Attend Church Now Than At the Founding
What is really counter-intuitive is what Stark and his colleagues at the Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion found when looking at U.S. church attendance numbers going back to the days of our nation’s founding. They found that the percentage of church-attending Americans relative to overall population is more than four times greater today than it was in 1776. The number of attendees has continued to rise each and every decade over our nation’s history right up until the present day.

The number of church attendees has continued to rise each and every decade over our nation’s history right up until the present day.
People are making theological statements with their feet, shuffling to certain churches because they offer what people come seeking: clear, faithful, practical teaching of the scriptures, help in living intimately with and obediently to God, and making friends with people who will challenge and encourage them in their faith. To paraphrase the great Southern novelist Flannery O’Connor, if your church isn’t going to believe and practice actual Christianity, then “to hell with it.” This is what people are saying with their choices.

Or as Eric Kaufmann asserts, “Once secularism rears its head and fundamentalism responds with a clear alternative, moderate religion strikes many as redundant. Either you believe the stuff or you don’t. If you do, it makes sense to go for the real thing, which takes a firm stand against godlessness.”

If your Christianity is reconstituted to the day’s fashion, don’t be surprised if people lose interest in it. Few are seeking 2 Percent Christianity. They want the genuine deal, and the demographics on religion of the last few decades unmistakably support the fact.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/guy/?fbclid=IwAR0LFsrsT4KdHwhXfFj4uHsSC_fW_TmSKEGxD8vcpWUez9RnybegL_G49mA#.XH7kV-iIzB6.facebook
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 11, 2019, 08:50:20 PM
30% of Americans believe that the Bible is the true Word of God. In other countries similar to the USA, only 10% do so.

I'm not sure this is something to crow about.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on March 12, 2019, 04:06:24 AM
I'm beginning to suspect a problem in the Cathlolic Church.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 12, 2019, 02:58:23 PM
I'm beginning to suspect a problem in the Cathlolic Church.

 :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 12, 2019, 04:25:55 PM
30% of Americans believe that the Bible is the true Word of God. In other countries similar to the USA, only 10% do so.

I'm not sure this is something to crow about.


Who is crowing about anything?  And why do you care?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on March 12, 2019, 06:15:09 PM
30% of Americans believe that the Bible is the true Word of God. In other countries similar to the USA, only 10% do so.

I'm not sure this is something to crow about.



To believe the Bible is true means nothing.  Living that belief?  Everything.  Most people the world over have nothing to crow about.

But they sure can eat it.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on March 12, 2019, 07:00:01 PM
A high ranking member of the Catholic church has been found guilty of child abuse. Last year, a judge handed down a legal order which prevented any reporting of Pell's trial and conviction in Australian media.

George Pell: Cardinal found guilty of sexual offences in Australia

Cardinal George Pell has been found guilty in Australia of sexual offences against children, making him the highest-ranking Catholic figure to receive such a conviction. Pell abused two choir boys in Melbourne's cathedral in 1996, a jury found. He had pleaded not guilty.

As Vatican treasurer, the 77-year-old Australian was widely seen as the Church's third most powerful official. Pell, due to face sentencing hearings from Wednesday, has lodged an appeal.

His trial was heard twice last year because a first jury failed to reach a verdict. A second jury unanimously convicted him of one charge of sexually penetrating a child under 16, and four counts of committing an indecent act on a child under 16. The verdict was handed down in December, but it could not be reported until now for legal reasons.

Who is Pell?

The Australian cleric rose in prominence as a strong supporter of traditional Catholic values, often taking conservative views and advocating for priestly celibacy. He was summoned to Rome in 2014 to clean up the Vatican's finances, and was often described as the Church's third-ranked official.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-47366113



6 years is not enough, even for a pervert of his age.

George Pell: Cardinal jailed for child sexual abuse in Australia

Cardinal George Pell has been jailed for six years after being convicted of sexually abusing two boys in Australia.

The former Vatican treasurer is the most senior Catholic figure ever to be found guilty of sexual offences against children.

Pell abused the 13-year-old choir boys in a Melbourne cathedral in 1996, a jury ruled last year.

The cardinal, 77, maintains his innocence and is appealing against his convictions.

In sentencing Pell on Wednesday, a judge said the cleric had committed "a brazen and forceful sexual attack on the two victims".

"Your conduct was permeated by staggering arrogance," said Judge Peter Kidd.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-47549297
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 13, 2019, 03:04:38 PM
To believe the Bible is true means nothing.  Living that belief?  Everything.  Most people the world over have nothing to crow about.

But they sure can eat it.



My observation. If they really believed the bible to be true, not just conditioned to think they believe or say they believe it, then they WOULD live that belief. The alternative would be a hell they believed existed. So I have my doubts about many of those who claim the belief as a insurance policy so to speak, and really, gun to head, would admit they really don't
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on March 16, 2019, 05:25:11 PM
Ex-priest charged with raping New Mexico girl in 1990s

Former Roman Catholic priest Sabine Griego was arrested Tuesday at his home in Las Vegas, N.M., accused of raping an 8-year-old Albuquerque girl nearly three decades ago. Griego, 81, has been charged by the state Attorney General’s Office with one count of sexual penetration of a minor and coercion resulting in great bodily harm and mental anguish.
Documents filed by the Attorney General’s Office this week suggest the Archdiocese of Santa Fe knew of the rape allegations made by “Jane Doe A” for at least 15 years and likely much longer.

The charges against Griego are the most recent; he has been accused of sexually assaulting more than 30 children over a period of decades while in the archdiocese. He is implicated in eight closed cases filed in New Mexico between 1993, the same year he was put on leave from the church, and 1995, according to court records.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/ex-priest-charged-with-raping-new-mexico-girl-in-s/article_9c40d7e7-fdc6-5ae4-bd82-2325faa88fd7.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 16, 2019, 06:10:16 PM
Ex-priest charged with raping New Mexico girl in 1990s

Former Roman Catholic priest Sabine Griego was arrested Tuesday at his home in Las Vegas, N.M., accused of raping an 8-year-old Albuquerque girl nearly three decades ago. Griego, 81, has been charged by the state Attorney General’s Office with one count of sexual penetration of a minor and coercion resulting in great bodily harm and mental anguish.
Documents filed by the Attorney General’s Office this week suggest the Archdiocese of Santa Fe knew of the rape allegations made by “Jane Doe A” for at least 15 years and likely much longer.

The charges against Griego are the most recent; he has been accused of sexually assaulting more than 30 children over a period of decades while in the archdiocese. He is implicated in eight closed cases filed in New Mexico between 1993, the same year he was put on leave from the church, and 1995, according to court records.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/ex-priest-charged-with-raping-new-mexico-girl-in-s/article_9c40d7e7-fdc6-5ae4-bd82-2325faa88fd7.html

Religion of a piece...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on March 17, 2019, 12:35:30 AM
Who is crowing about anything?  And why do you care?

I don’t know why he cares; me, I find it both sad and troubling that so many Americans believe that the Christian grimoire is true or that the nonsensical doctrines at the core of the Christian faith.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Primemuscle on March 17, 2019, 01:37:57 AM
New Harvard Research Says U.S. Christianity Is Not Shrinking, But Growing Stronger
Is churchgoing and religious adherence really in ‘widespread decline’ so much so that conservative believers should suffer ‘growing anxiety’? Absolutely not.
Glenn T. Stanton By Glenn T. Stanton
JANUARY 22, 2018

“Meanwhile, a widespread decline in churchgoing and religious affiliation had contributed to a growing anxiety among conservative believers.” Statements like this are uttered with such confidence and frequency that most Americans accept them as uncontested truisms. This one emerged just this month in an exceedingly silly article in The Atlantic on Vice President Mike Pence.

Religious faith in America is going the way of the Yellow Pages and travel maps, we keep hearing. It’s just a matter of time until Christianity’s total and happy extinction, chortle our cultural elites. Is this true? Is churchgoing and religious adherence really in “widespread decline” so much so that conservative believers should suffer “growing anxiety”?

Two words: Absolutely not.

New research published late last year by scholars at Harvard University and Indiana University Bloomington is just the latest to reveal the myth. This research questioned the “secularization thesis,” which holds that the United States is following most advanced industrial nations in the death of their once vibrant faith culture. Churches becoming mere landmarks, dance halls, boutique hotels, museums, and all that.

Not only did their examination find no support for this secularization in terms of actual practice and belief, the researchers proclaim that religion continues to enjoy “persistent and exceptional intensity” in America. These researchers hold our nation “remains an exceptional outlier and potential counter example to the secularization thesis.”

What Accounts for the Difference in Perceptions?
How can their findings appear so contrary to what we have been hearing from so many seemingly informed voices? It comes down primarily to what kind of faith one is talking about. Not the belief system itself, per se, but the intensity and seriousness with which people hold and practice that faith.

Mainline churches are tanking as if they have super-sized millstones around their necks. Yes, these churches are hemorrhaging members in startling numbers, but many of those folks are not leaving Christianity. They are simply going elsewhere. Because of this shifting, other very different kinds of churches are holding strong in crowds and have been for as long as such data has been collected. In some ways, they are even growing. This is what this new research has found.

The percentage of Americans who attend church more than once a week, pray daily, and accept the Bible as wholly reliable and deeply instructive to their lives has remained absolutely, steel-bar constant for the last 50 years or more, right up to today. These authors describe this continuity as “patently persistent.”

The percentage of such people is also not small. One in three Americans prays multiple times a day, while one in 15 do so in other countries on average. Attending services more than once a week continues to be twice as high among Americans compared to the next highest-attending industrial country, and three times higher than the average comparable nation.

One-third of Americans hold that the Bible is the actual word of God. Fewer than 10 percent believe so in similar countries. The United States “clearly stands out as exceptional,” and this exceptionalism has not been decreasing over time. In fact, these scholars determine that the percentages of Americans who are the most vibrant and serious in their faith is actually increasing a bit, “which is making the United States even more exceptional over time.”

This also means, of course, that those who take their faith seriously are becoming a markedly larger proportion of all religious people. In 1989, 39 percent of those who belonged to a religion held strong beliefs and practices. Today, these are 47 percent of all the religiously affiliated. This all has important implications for politics, indicating that the voting bloc of religious conservatives is not shrinking, but actually growing among the faithful. The declining influence of liberal believers at the polls has been demonstrated in many important elections recently.

These Are Not Isolated Findings
The findings of these scholars are not outliers. There has been a growing gulf between the faithful and the dabblers for quite some time, with the first group growing more numerous. Think about the church you attend, relative to its belief system. It is extremely likely that if your church teaches the Bible with seriousness, calls its people to real discipleship, and encourages daily intimacy with God, it has multiple services to handle the coming crowds.

Most decent-size American cities have a treasure trove of such churches for believers to choose from. This shows no sign of changing. If, however, your church is theologically liberal or merely lukewarm, it’s likely laying off staff and wondering how to pay this month’s light bill. People are navigating toward substantive Christianity.

The folks at Pew have been reporting for years that while the mainline churches are in drastic free fall, the group that “shows the most significant growth is the nondenominational family.” Of course, these nondenominational churches are 99.9 percent thorough-blooded evangelical. Pew also notes that “evangelical Protestantism and the historically black Protestant tradition have been more stable” over the years, with even a slight uptick in the last decade because many congregants leaving the mainline churches are migrating to evangelical churches that hold fast to the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

When the so-called “progressive” churches question the historicity of Jesus, deny the reality of sin, support abortion, ordain clergy in same-sex relationships and perform their marriages, people desiring real Christianity head elsewhere. Fact: evangelical churches gain five new congregants exiled from the liberal churches for every one they lose for any reason. They also do a better job of retaining believers from childhood to adulthood than do mainline churches.

The Other Key Factor: Faithful People Grow More Children
There is another factor at work here beyond orthodox belief. The University of London’s Eric Kaufmann explains in his important book “Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?” (he says yes) that the sustaining vitality, and even significant per capita growth, of serious Christian belief is as firmly rooted in fertility as it is in faithful teaching and evangelism. Globally, he says that the more robust baby-making practices of orthodox Jews and Christians, as opposed to the baby-limiting practices of liberals, create many more seriously religious people than a secular agenda can keep up with.

The growth of serious Christian belief is as firmly rooted in fertility as it is in faithful teaching and evangelism.
Fertility determines who influences the future in many important ways. He puts it bluntly, “The secular West and East Asia are aging and their share of the world population declining. This means the world is getting more religious even as people in the rich world shed their faith.”

Fertility is as important as fidelity for Christianity and Judaism’s triumph from generation to generation. Kaufmann contends, “Put high fertility and [faith] retention rates together with general population decline and you have a potent formula for change.”

It comes down to this: God laughs at the social Darwinists. Their theory is absolutely true, but just not in the way they think. Those who have the babies and raise and educate them well tend to direct the future of humanity. Serious Christians are doing this. Those redefining the faith and reality itself are not.

This why Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart proclaimed in First Things, long before the proposal of the Benedict Option, that the most “subversive and effective strategy we might undertake [to counter the culture] would be one of militant fecundity: abundant, relentless, exuberant, and defiant childbearing.” The future rests in the hands of the fertile.

What About All the Millennial Ex-Christians?
But what about our young people? We are constantly hearing that young people are “leaving the church in droves,” followed by wildly disturbing statistics. This also requires a closer look at who is actually leaving and from where. Pew reports that of young adults who left their faith, only 11 percent said they had a strong faith in childhood while 89 percent said they came from a home that had a very weak faith in belief and practice.

It’s not a news flash that kids don’t tend to hang onto what they never had in the first place. Leading sociologist of religion Christopher Smith has found through his work that most emerging adults “report little change in how religious they have been in the previous five years.” He surprisingly also found that those who do report a change say they have been more religious, not less. This certainly does not mean there is a major revival going on among young adults, but nor does it mean the sky is falling.

Add to this Rodney Stark’s warning that we should not confuse leaving the faith with attending less often. He and other scholars report that young adults begin to attend church less often in their “independent years” and have always done so for as long back as such data has been collected. It’s part of the nature of emerging adulthood. Just as sure as these young people do other things on Sunday morning, the leading sociologists of religion find they return to church when they get married, have children, and start to live a real adult life. It’s like clockwork and always has been. However, the increasing delay among young adults in entering marriage and family is likely lengthening this gap today.

More Americans Attend Church Now Than At the Founding
What is really counter-intuitive is what Stark and his colleagues at the Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion found when looking at U.S. church attendance numbers going back to the days of our nation’s founding. They found that the percentage of church-attending Americans relative to overall population is more than four times greater today than it was in 1776. The number of attendees has continued to rise each and every decade over our nation’s history right up until the present day.

The number of church attendees has continued to rise each and every decade over our nation’s history right up until the present day.
People are making theological statements with their feet, shuffling to certain churches because they offer what people come seeking: clear, faithful, practical teaching of the scriptures, help in living intimately with and obediently to God, and making friends with people who will challenge and encourage them in their faith. To paraphrase the great Southern novelist Flannery O’Connor, if your church isn’t going to believe and practice actual Christianity, then “to hell with it.” This is what people are saying with their choices.

Or as Eric Kaufmann asserts, “Once secularism rears its head and fundamentalism responds with a clear alternative, moderate religion strikes many as redundant. Either you believe the stuff or you don’t. If you do, it makes sense to go for the real thing, which takes a firm stand against godlessness.”

If your Christianity is reconstituted to the day’s fashion, don’t be surprised if people lose interest in it. Few are seeking 2 Percent Christianity. They want the genuine deal, and the demographics on religion of the last few decades unmistakably support the fact.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/guy/?fbclid=IwAR0LFsrsT4KdHwhXfFj4uHsSC_fW_TmSKEGxD8vcpWUez9RnybegL_G49mA#.XH7kV-iIzB6.facebook

Judging from where I live, I would have to agree that Christianity is one the rise.

The Willamette Christian Church in West Linn, was founded in 1957. Several years ago, the church broke ground on a new facility near where I live. It is much more than a church, it is a community center open to all. They also have an after school club - hangout for middle school kids. On Sunday's they set up special crosswalks with crossing guards to facilitate folks getting to their cars at the Safeway overflow parking lot. I think this is a good example of a new age Christian Church that is enjoying huge success because it serves most of the needs of the West Linn community. https://www.facebook.com/pg/willamettecc/about/?ref=page_internal

Resurrection Catholic Parrish was built within the last ten years. It replaced a smaller Catholic Church in the same location. While there is only one Synagogue and no Mosques in the immediate area, there are a number of other Christian based churches sprinkled throughout West Linn. West Linn also has a Mormon Church.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 19, 2019, 12:28:59 AM
I don’t know why he cares; me, I find it both sad and troubling that so many Americans believe that the Christian grimoire is true or that the nonsensical doctrines at the core of the Christian faith.

So many Americans, including the founders of our country and the overwhelming majority of the country since its inception.  Just mentioning that for context purposes. 

As for me, I'm neither sad nor troubled by people who don't share my faith, or practice no religion at all, or atheists, etc.  I particularly don't get worked up over things that I don't believe exist.  A truly confounding aspect of activist atheists. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on March 19, 2019, 12:59:32 PM
So many Americans, including the founders of our country and the overwhelming majority of the country since its inception.  Just mentioning that for context purposes.

Appealing to numbers and authorities won’t help your case. The overwhelming majority used to believe in burning witches and that the Sun revolved around the earth.

As for what the Founding Fathers believed in, most seem to have been either deists or Christians of the blandest and most milquetoast variety. But regardless of their beliefs, what is important is that they intentionally opted to not include their beliefs on the founding document of our country and chose instead to form a Government of people and not priests and that they explicitly shackled the government they were instituting from proclaiming a state religion or even endorsing one.


As for me, I'm neither sad nor troubled by people who don't share my faith, or practice no religion at all, or atheists, etc.  I particularly don't get worked up over things that I don't believe exist.  A truly confounding aspect of activist atheists. 

I’m not saddened or troubled by what people believe; they’re entitled to believe whatever they want. I’m saddened and troubled when they use their beliefs to justify absurd positions and to attempt to impose their simplistic morality on the rest of us. I’m especially offended when the morality in question is so flawed as to be harmful.

If you want to believe in Jesus and the promise of everlasting life in the presence of a loving God,  in a city paved with gold more power to you. I got no beef with that.

If you want to believe in Allah and the promise of several virgins waiting for you in a land of milk and honey more power to you. I got no beef with that either.

The moment you start suggesting that others are bound by the rules in your grimoire or demanding that we adopt your religious dogma as a standard of morality and the foundation of a rational system of laws that binds us all, then I do have a beef with you.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 20, 2019, 12:34:04 PM
Appealing to numbers and authorities won’t help your case. The overwhelming majority used to believe in burning witches and that the Sun revolved around the earth.

As for what the Founding Fathers believed in, most seem to have been either deists or Christians of the blandest and most milquetoast variety. But regardless of their beliefs, what is important is that they intentionally opted to not include their beliefs on the founding document of our country and chose instead to form a Government of people and not priests and that they explicitly shackled the government they were instituting from proclaiming a state religion or even endorsing one.


I’m not saddened or troubled by what people believe; they’re entitled to believe whatever they want. I’m saddened and troubled when they use their beliefs to justify absurd positions and to attempt to impose their simplistic morality on the rest of us. I’m especially offended when the morality in question is so flawed as to be harmful.

If you want to believe in Jesus and the promise of everlasting life in the presence of a loving God,  in a city paved with gold more power to you. I got no beef with that.

If you want to believe in Allah and the promise of several virgins waiting for you in a land of milk and honey more power to you. I got no beef with that either.

The moment you start suggesting that others are bound by the rules in your grimoire or demanding that we adopt your religious dogma as a standard of morality and the foundation of a rational system of laws that binds us all, then I do have a beef with you.

Not trying to make a case, but your analogies aren't applicable.  The overwhelming majority of Americans didn't burn witches or believe the sun revolved around the earth, nor do those two things provide any kind of historical context. 

I'm not sure what a bland or milquetoast believer is.  The Founders were not a little pregnant.  They believed in God.  They were men of faith.  That is a part of our foundation as a country. 

I don't have a problem with proselytizing if that's partly what you are talking about.  I've been approached countless times and it never offends me.  The only bone I have to pick is those two old Jehovah's Witness ladies who I let into my house at age 15 to debate and they kicked the crap out of me.  As an adult, I met a Witness in training, who showed me some of their training materials, which teaches them how to argue.  So unfair when using that on a kid.  lol

Regarding standards of morality and a "rational system of laws," there is absolutely nothing wrong with people supporting or voting for laws that have a Christian origin or influence.  Some of those laws are good (like laws prohibiting stealing).  Some are way too intrusive (like laws that criminalized adultery).  But that's no different than any public policy, regardless of origin or influence:  some is good, some is bad. 

Some people have this mistaken belief that Christianity cannot influence policy making.  Or that the public square has to be completely free of any kind of religious references, etc.  That never was the case historically.  That's not what the Constitution requires.  And there is nothing wrong people using faith to influence policy.  If you or anyone else disagrees, show your disapproval at the ballot box. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on March 20, 2019, 06:26:44 PM
Not trying to make a case, but your analogies aren't applicable.  The overwhelming majority of Americans didn't burn witches or believe the sun revolved around the earth, nor do those two things provide any kind of historical context.

I didn’t use an analogy. I highlighted the fact that you started off using two logical fallacies.


I'm not sure what a bland or milquetoast believer is.  The Founders were not a little pregnant.  They believed in God.  They were men of faith.  That is a part of our foundation as a country.

The writings of the Founding Fathers don’t suggest that they were nominal Christians and not particularly observant. But hey, why let objective facts get in the way of a good myth like Christianity being a part of the country’s “foundation”.

I don't have a problem with proselytizing if that's partly what you are talking about.

I don’t much care if believers try to convince others to follow them. I care when believers think that their beliefs are special and that their particular “divinely inspired” morality should have the force of law in a secular society. If I wanted divinely inspired laws. I’d be living in some Muslim shithole, not the US.


Regarding standards of morality and a "rational system of laws," there is absolutely nothing wrong with people supporting or voting for laws that have a Christian origin or influence.  Some of those laws are good (like laws prohibiting stealing).  Some are way too intrusive (like laws that criminalized adultery).  But that's no different than any public policy, regardless of origin or influence:  some is good, some is bad.

Laws prohibiting stealing aren’t some uniquely Christian invention and it’s silly to claim that they are laws because of Christian morality. Stealing is objectively wrong.


Regarding Some people have this mistaken belief that Christianity cannot influence policy making.  Or that the public square has to be completely free of any kind of religious references, etc.  That never was the case historically.  That's not what the Constitution requires.  And there is nothing wrong people using faith to influence policy.  If you or anyone else disagrees, show your disapproval at the ballot box.  

I do think Christianity shouldn’t influence policy making, but not bevause of any Constitutional reasons. Rather, because it’s a nonsensical and irrational system of beliefs and promulgates a mystical morality that is based on rewards andthe capricious whims of a magical deity.

If you think Christian morality should inform policy making, then tell us, should divorced women be allowed to remarry? Matthew 5:32 says no. If you don’t think this is an appropriate law, why isn’t it? Why is “don’t steal” OK but “don’t remarry” isn’t? And, while you’re at it, should there be a law against coveting your neighbor’s ass?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 20, 2019, 06:50:41 PM
I didn’t use an analogy. I highlighted the fact that you started off using two logical fallacies.


The writings of the Founding Fathers don’t suggest that they were nominal Christians and not particularly observant. But hey, why let objective facts get in the way of a good myth like Christianity being a part of the country’s “foundation”.

I don’t much care if believers try to convince others to follow them. I care when believers think that their beliefs are special and that their particular “divinely inspired” morality should have the force of law in a secular society. If I wanted divinely inspired laws. I’d be living in some Muslim shithole, not the US.


Laws prohibiting stealing aren’t some uniquely Christian invention and it’s silly to claim that they are laws because of Christian morality. Stealing is objectively wrong.


I do think Christianity shouldn’t influence policy making, but not bevause of any Constitutional reasons. Rather, because it’s a nonsensical and irrational system of beliefs and promulgates a mystical morality that is based on rewards andthe capricious whims of a magical deity.

If you think Christian morality should inform policy making, then tell us, should divorced women be allowed to remarry? Matthew 5:32 says no. If you don’t think this is an appropriate law, why isn’t it? Why is “don’t steal” OK but “don’t remarry” isn’t? And, while you’re at it, should there be a law against coveting your neighbor’s ass?

Yes you compared the faith of our Founders and beliefs held by the overwhelming majority of the country to burning witches and the sun, etc.  I think your analogy would work better if it used something that a majority of the country believed in. 

Like "bland" or "milquetoast" believers, I'm not sure what a "nominal" Christian is.  I've read their writings.  They believed in God.  Not blandly or nominally (whatever that actually means in this context).  They believed.  There is no reasonable dispute about that. 

I didn't call laws prohibiting stealing "uniquely" Christian.  I said laws prohibiting stealing have a Christian "origin or influence."  That's just a fact.  And I'm sure you know, as a Bible reading atheist, that prohibitions on stealing are contained in the Bible; the same Bible that predates the founding of the U.S.  And note you didn't mention adultery, another law that has a Christian origin or influence. 

I obviously disagree with your characterization of faith based beliefs.  We all have them, but not all of us are intellectually honest enough to admit them. 

I didn't say Christian morality should inform policy making.  I said there is nothing wrong with it and that if people like you or anyone else don't like it, then don't vote for it. 

Yes divorced women should be able to marry whomever the heck they want.  I don't think that is an appropriate law, because it doesn't make any sense and would be bad public policy.  I would never vote for or support that kind of law.  That's how the whole voting and public policy thing works. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 25, 2019, 09:42:53 PM
Yes you compared the faith of our Founders and beliefs held by the overwhelming majority of the country to burning witches and the sun, etc.  I think your analogy would work better if it used something that a majority of the country believed in. 

Like "bland" or "milquetoast" believers, I'm not sure what a "nominal" Christian is.  I've read their writings.  They believed in God.  Not blandly or nominally (whatever that actually means in this context).  They believed.  There is no reasonable dispute about that. 

I didn't call laws prohibiting stealing "uniquely" Christian.  I said laws prohibiting stealing have a Christian "origin or influence."  That's just a fact.  And I'm sure you know, as a Bible reading atheist, that prohibitions on stealing are contained in the Bible; the same Bible that predates the founding of the U.S.  And note you didn't mention adultery, another law that has a Christian origin or influence. 

I obviously disagree with your characterization of faith based beliefs.  We all have them, but not all of us are intellectually honest enough to admit them. 

I didn't say Christian morality should inform policy making.  I said there is nothing wrong with it and that if people like you or anyone else don't like it, then don't vote for it. 

Yes divorced women should be able to marry whomever the heck they want.  I don't think that is an appropriate law, because it doesn't make any sense and would be bad public policy.  I would never vote for or support that kind of law.  That's how the whole voting and public policy thing works. 

It does sound like you are willing to support some parts of the bible, and then disavow other parts of the bible. How do you reconcile this as a Christian?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on March 26, 2019, 06:31:06 PM
It does sound like you are willing to support some parts of the bible, and then disavow other parts of the bible. How do you reconcile this as a Christian?


"Sigh"...

Christ is the completion of the Promise.  The Old Testament is for the Jews.  Exempli gratia, Leviticus is written for the Levites, the keepers of the Law if you will.  That the Nazarene took the place of the Law is shown in the vision of the sheet filled with "unclean" animals and God saying to the apostle, "Kill and eat" and the apostle replying, "Never, Lord!  I have never eaten that which is unclean!".  God ultimately says to this man, that which God has declared "clean" is clean.

I, an Atheist, should not have to teach you these simple truths because you already know them and still you think it clever to ax others these painfully childish questions.   The truth is I am your worst nightmare because I know the Word and I knew Christ and that which the Nazarene taught and can honor his wisdom and easily confound fucktards with the truth of my words and more so my wit.  None here can match it save Kahn and I dare say he surpasses me with ease.

In plain speak, you know the answers to the questions you pose.  You just don't like them.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on March 26, 2019, 06:38:46 PM

"Sigh"...

Christ is the completion of the Promise.  The Old Testament is for the Jews.  Exempli gratia, Leviticus is written for the Levites, the keepers of the Law if you will.  That the Nazarene took the place of the Law is shown in the vision of the sheet filled with "unclean" animals and God saying to the apostle, "Kill and eat" and the apostle replying, "Never, Lord!  I have never eaten that which is unclean!".  God ultimately says to this man, that which God has declared "clean" is clean.

I, an Atheist, should not have to teach you these simple truths because you already know them and still you think it clever to ax others these painfully childish questions.   The truth is I am your worst nightmare because I know the Word and I knew Christ and that which the Nazarene taught and can honor his wisdom and easily confound fucktards with the truth of my words and more so my wit.  None here can match it save Kahn and I dare say he surpasses me with ease.

In plain speak, you know the answers to the questions you pose.  You just don't like them.

Translation:  The Scott knows he is too intelligent to believe in God yet he just cannot pull away. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on March 26, 2019, 06:44:13 PM
Translation:  The Scott knows he is too intelligent to believe in God yet he just cannot pull away. 


LOL!  It is not my problem that your parents were closely related.  Look ace.  Be thankful this ain't the real world  because I don't give an intercourse in the real world. If I, a person of low intelligence can easily best you, you must truly be an inbred wigtard.  I don't dislike you.  You should be thankful for that. Reading you is akin to watching mongoloids fuck stuffed toys. Painful.  I weep for your parental siblings.

I hope you get the 0.8% and suffer terribly.  You deserve to because of what you present yourself as to the world.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on March 26, 2019, 06:45:45 PM

LOL!  It is not my problem that your parents were closely related.  Look ace.  Be thankful this ain't the real world  because I don't give an intercourse in the real world. If I, a person of low intelligence can easily best you, you must truly be an inbred wigtard.  I don't dislike you.  You should be thankful for that. Reading you is akin to watching mongoloids fuck stuffed toys. Painful.  I weep for your parental siblings.

I hope you get the 0.8% and suffer terribly.  You deserve to because of what you present yourself as to the world.

Holy shit.  I cannot quit laughing.  You are much more than a typist. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 26, 2019, 08:22:03 PM
Translation:  The Scott knows he is too intelligent to believe in God yet he just cannot pull away. 

Exactly,, he has been a Jesus fan from day one, doesn't believe a word of the bible but ... for some reason, holds this Jesus character  up as a god. He's an atheist so I don't have to tell him the bible is fiction.. but here he is.. defending Jesus at every turn
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 26, 2019, 08:23:40 PM
Holy shit.  I cannot quit laughing.  You are much more than a typist. 

I picture him pushing his chair back, and re reading his posts with this feeling of supremacy, like "Yeah..... that'll do pig.." It cracks me up
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on March 26, 2019, 08:50:13 PM
I picture him pushing his chair back, and re reading his posts with this feeling of supremacy, like "Yeah..... that'll do pig.." It cracks me up

This made me laugh aloud.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 26, 2019, 11:29:27 PM
It does sound like you are willing to support some parts of the bible, and then disavow other parts of the bible. How do you reconcile this as a Christian?

It sounds like you just invented a position you want me to defend.  What precisely are you talking about? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on March 27, 2019, 06:17:55 PM
Holy shit.  I cannot quit laughing.  You are much more than a typist. 

Most here are like you. A typist.   For the record, I don't think you're a "pig" like Babe.

More like the swine of "Animal Farm".  So it would read thus - "That'll do, Napoleon."  You may be able to find an abridged "children's" version of Orwell's classic with pictures to better assist your comprehension of the tale.  No...Not the pig's tail, but the "tale" as in "story". 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on March 27, 2019, 06:25:53 PM
Most here are like you. A typist.   For the record, I don't think you're a "pig" like Babe.

More like the swine of "Animal Farm".  So it would read thus - "That'll do, Napoleon."  You may be able to find an abridged "children's" version of Orwell's classic with pictures to better assist your comprehension of the tale.  No...Not the pig's tail, but the "tale" as in "story". 

I accept your apology.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on March 27, 2019, 06:36:54 PM
I accept your apology.

Your display of noblesse oblige is, while not genuine, at least  a step away from the egotistical precipice you seem to enjoy teetering on while straining your pinna for the echo of what is your own voice confirming your own voice . 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on March 27, 2019, 08:15:06 PM
Yes you compared the faith of our Founders and beliefs held by the overwhelming majority of the country to burning witches and the sun, etc.

Belief is belief. The people that burned "witches" believed they were doing the right thing. They did so despite having no rational evidence to support their position; they had only their belief and their faith. Whether an "overwhelming majority" believe something is irrelevant. It's not a popularity contest.

 
Like "bland" or "milquetoast" believers, I'm not sure what a "nominal" Christian is.

A Christian that says "I'm a Christian" while not bothering to do any of the things Christians are directed to do.


I've read their writings.  They believed in God.  Not blandly or nominally (whatever that actually means in this context).  They believed.  There is no reasonable dispute about that.

It's completely crazy to suggest "there is no reasonable dispute about that." It defies objective reality. Books have been written about the faith of the Founding Fathers.

I said laws prohibiting stealing have a Christian "origin or influence."  That's just a fact.

Are you joking? Laws against stealing predate Christianity by millenia. The Code of Ur-Nammu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu), which existed over 4,000 years ago, explicitly imposed the death penalty for murder or robbery.


And I'm sure you know, as a Bible reading atheist, that prohibitions on stealing are contained in the Bible; the same Bible that predates the founding of the U.S.

Allow me to introduce you to a new logical fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


And note you didn't mention adultery, another law that has a Christian origin or influence.

BULLSHIT. Again, the Code of Ur-Nammu defined adultery and imposed penalties for adulterers. This is a full 2,000 years before Jesus, and at least 1,000 years before YHWH gave Moses the 10 Commandments.


I obviously disagree with your characterization of faith based beliefs.

You're allowed to disagree.


We all have them, but not all of us are intellectually honest enough to admit them.

I obviously disagree with you that "we all have [faith based beliefs]." I'd tell you that I don't have beliefs based on faith, but I'm sure you'll just assert that I'm lying or that I'm intellectually dishonest for not admitting the truth that is, to you anyways, so blatantly obvious.
 

I didn't say Christian morality should inform policy making.  I said there is nothing wrong with it and that if people like you or anyone else don't like it, then don't vote for it.

There's everything wrong with imposing your moral code on others, even if you have a plurality of votes. We live in a republic, not a democracy. What the majority can do is limited by the document which established this country: our Constitution. And rightly so.


Yes divorced women should be able to marry whomever the heck they want.  I don't think that is an appropriate law, because it doesn't make any sense and would be bad public policy.  I would never vote for or support that kind of law.  That's how the whole voting and public policy thing works.  

You just finished telling us that "there is nothing wrong with [Christian morality informing policy making] and that if people like you or anyone else don't like it, then don't vote for it."

And objective, observable facts suggest that this is exactly how it works. We could talk about gay marriage, a textbook example of this. Do you really want me to list comments by U.S. politicians explaining why their religious beliefs mean that they can prohibit what consenting adults can do?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 28, 2019, 11:17:46 AM
Belief is belief. The people that burned "witches" believed they were doing the right thing. They did so despite having no rational evidence to support their position; they had only their belief and their faith. Whether an "overwhelming majority" believe something is irrelevant. It's not a popularity contest.

 
A Christian that says "I'm a Christian" while not bothering to do any of the things Christians are directed to do.


It's completely crazy to suggest "there is no reasonable dispute about that." It defies objective reality. Books have been written about the faith of the Founding Fathers.

Are you joking? Laws against stealing predate Christianity by millenia. The Code of Ur-Nammu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu), which existed over 4,000 years ago, explicitly imposed the death penalty for murder or robbery.


Allow me to introduce you to a new logical fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


BULLSHIT. Again, the Code of Ur-Nammu defined adultery and imposed penalties for adulterers. This is a full 2,000 years before Jesus, and at least 1,000 years before YHWH gave Moses the 10 Commandments.


You're allowed to disagree.


I obviously disagree with you that "we all have [faith based beliefs]." I'd tell you that I don't have beliefs based on faith, but I'm sure you'll just assert that I'm lying or that I'm intellectually dishonest for not admitting the truth that is, to you anyways, so blatantly obvious.
 

There's everything wrong with imposing your moral code on others, even if you have a plurality of votes. We live in a republic, not a democracy. What the majority can do is limited by the document which established this country: our Constitution. And rightly so.


You just finished telling us that "there is nothing wrong with [Christian morality informing policy making] and that if people like you or anyone else don't like it, then don't vote for it."

And objective, observable facts suggest that this is exactly how it works. We could talk about gay marriage, a textbook example of this. Do you really want me to list comments by U.S. politicians explaining why their religious beliefs mean that they can prohibit what consenting adults can do?

I’m talking about context.  The fact that an overwhelming majority of Americans have believed in God since our country’s inception is absolutely relevant.  So if you’re going to compare a belief or practice that has extensive historical roots, you need to find an example that has widespread historical roots.  That’s why your analogy is nonsensical. 

Meh.  You have a false impression about what Christianity is all about.  It isn’t necessarily about what someone does.  It’s about what that person believes, what’s in that person’s heart, and that person’s private personal relationship with God.  While it’s true that someone who is a Christian will typically act a certain way, you don’t know what happens behind closed doors or what’s in a person’s heart. 

It’s completely crazy to read about our history then conclude there is a reasonable debate about whether the Founders believed in God.  But ensure we are talking about the same thing.  I’m talking about whether they believed in God, not whether they were practicing Christians. 

I don’t know anything about the “Code of Ur-Nammu.”  Are you suggesting this Code was followed by the Founders and other early Americans?  Proof?  What I do know is that the Bible condemns stealing, the Bible predates America’s origin, and that early Americans were influenced by Biblical principles (some good, some bad).  If you have evidence that Americans were actually influence by the “Code of Ur-Nammu,” please share it. 

I don’t remember if you participated in the thread I started on here years ago about the scientific explanation for the origin of life on earth, but it was pretty revealing.  I recall more than one person saying they had no opinion, because it would force them to accept that they have a faith-based belief in how life began on day 1.  That’s one example.  There is no scientific proof for the origin of life on day 1. 
 
Bruh we impose our moral code on society all the time.  That’s exactly what our body of laws is:  society’s view on what is morally good and bad.  It doesn’t matter what influences someone (individual voter or legislator).  What matters is whether the proposal is good or bad policy.  And yes, if you like it, vote for it, if you don’t like it, vote against it.   

Who cares if religious beliefs form the foundation of someone’s view on traditional marriage?  Or if science forms that foundation?  Or just plain commonsense?  Like I said, what matters is whether that particular law is good or bad policy. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on March 28, 2019, 09:09:48 PM
You realize you come across as crazy, right?

You claim that laws against stealing are influenced by Christianity and when I point out that societies that predate not only Christianity but Judaism had laws against stealing on the proverbial books, your response is “well nobody knew about that so there!”

Also, your flippant comment about adultery backfired; far from something that Christian morality introduced, the fact is that civilizations had laws against adultery millenia before Christ, and hundreds, if not thousands of years, before God allegedly communicated the 10 Commandments to Moses.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 28, 2019, 09:12:04 PM
AVXO won this round... logical well thought out responses
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 29, 2019, 11:04:16 PM
You realize you come across as crazy, right?

You claim that laws against stealing are influenced by Christianity and when I point out that societies that predate not only Christianity but Judaism had laws against stealing on the proverbial books, your response is “well nobody knew about that so there!”

Also, your flippant comment about adultery backfired; far from something that Christian morality introduced, the fact is that civilizations had laws against adultery millenia before Christ, and hundreds, if not thousands of years, before God allegedly communicated the 10 Commandments to Moses.



I am NOT crazy.  At least that's what the voices in my head said the last time we had a discussion. 

No need to makeup some ridiculous quote.  Just rely on what I actually said.  Focus.  I am saying the Founders and early Americans were heavily influenced by their faith and belief in God.  That faith and belief was grounded on the Bible.  The Bible predated the founding of the country. 

No that doesn't mean that at some point before the founding of the country that some other "Code" didn't exist that had similar values.  It means that other "Code" wasn't what influenced the Founders and early Americans.  Unless of course you have some proof that they did rely on this "Code" when forming their laws in early America?  I've read a great deal of history about early America, but maybe I missed how the "Code of Ur-Nammu" formed the foundation of early American laws.  If so, please enlighten me. 

I didn't make a flippant comment about adultery.  I stated that the early American laws criminalizing adultery were influenced by the Bible. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on March 29, 2019, 11:05:17 PM
AVXO won this round... logical well thought out responses

Listen peanut gallery, nobody wins or loses a discussion on this board.  This isn't a high school debate class.   ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on April 04, 2019, 02:42:24 PM
When the shoe is on the other foot...
Interesting how some paranoid religious extremists want to impose their invocations and prayers on everyone but when it's a "different" invocation that's not to the "one true god" they suddenly feel they're compelled to pray to a god other than their own (the "one true god"). Maybe cases like this could make them re-evaluate the issue of legislative prayer. More realistically, it will probably lead to even more religious, predominantly christian, nonsense in legislatures.

Several North Dakota lawmakers abstain from Hindu prayer

A handful of North Dakota Republican lawmakers abstained from a Hindu prayer that opened the House's floor session Tuesday, April 2, with one legislator describing his actions as a form of quiet protest.

Minot Republican Rep. Jeff Hoverson, a Lutheran pastor, sat in the back of the House chamber during Rajan Zed's prayer while other lawmakers stood at their desks. He told reporters afterward that the state's constitution "does not refer to a Hindu god. It refers to ... the one true God."

Hoverson said he met Zed, the president of the Universal Society of Hinduism based in Reno, Nev., and told him of his plans but said it was "nothing personal." Standing on the House floor following the afternoon floor session, he held up a cellphone photo showing the two men smiling and shaking hands.

"I accept him, but I don't want to be compelled to pray to a false god," Hoverson said.

https://www.inforum.com/news/government-and-politics/998299-Several-North-Dakota-lawmakers-abstain-from-Hindu-prayer
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 05, 2019, 12:12:45 PM
When the shoe is on the other foot...
Interesting how some paranoid religious extremists want to impose their invocations and prayers on everyone but when it's a "different" invocation that's not to the "one true god" they suddenly feel they're compelled to pray to a god other than their own (the "one true god"). Maybe cases like this could make them re-evaluate the issue of legislative prayer. More realistically, it will probably lead to even more religious, predominantly christian, nonsense in legislatures.

Several North Dakota lawmakers abstain from Hindu prayer

A handful of North Dakota Republican lawmakers abstained from a Hindu prayer that opened the House's floor session Tuesday, April 2, with one legislator describing his actions as a form of quiet protest.

Minot Republican Rep. Jeff Hoverson, a Lutheran pastor, sat in the back of the House chamber during Rajan Zed's prayer while other lawmakers stood at their desks. He told reporters afterward that the state's constitution "does not refer to a Hindu god. It refers to ... the one true God."

Hoverson said he met Zed, the president of the Universal Society of Hinduism based in Reno, Nev., and told him of his plans but said it was "nothing personal." Standing on the House floor following the afternoon floor session, he held up a cellphone photo showing the two men smiling and shaking hands.

"I accept him, but I don't want to be compelled to pray to a false god," Hoverson said.

https://www.inforum.com/news/government-and-politics/998299-Several-North-Dakota-lawmakers-abstain-from-Hindu-prayer

Meh.  Pretty dumb for them to draw attention to themselves, but nothing wrong with sitting out.  That's what you should do if it really bothers you.  I've never boycotted a prayer involving some other religion.  Never bothers me.   

But be sure to update this story if those guys file a lawsuit to stop it, claiming emotional distress. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 09, 2019, 11:41:48 AM
God Help Us: Atheism Becomes Largest Religion In U.S.
As religiosity has declined, social ills have abounded.
(https://www.dailywire.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/uploads/2019/04/gettyimages-534255520.jpg?itok=9Y1-rhzF)
Ralf-Finn Hestoft / Getty
By MICHAEL J. KNOWLES
 @MICHAELJKNOWLES
April 7, 2019

For the first time in history, atheists constitute the largest religious group in America. According to the General Social Survey, the number of Americans who have no religion has increased 266% over the past three decades and now account for 23.1% of the population, just barely edging out Catholics and Evangelicals as the nation’s dominant faith. Mainline Protestant churches have suffered the greatest collapse, declining 62.5% since 1982 and now comprising just 10.8% of the U.S. population.

As religiosity has declined, social ills have abounded. Nearly one in five American adults suffers from anxiety disorders, which now constitute the most common mental illness in the country. One in six Americans takes antidepressant drugs, a 65% surge over just 15 years. The problem is particularly acute among younger Americans. While depression diagnoses have increased 33% since 2013, that number is up 47% among Millennials and 63% among teenagers. Coincidentally, suicide rates among American teenagers have increased by 70% since 2006. American life expectancy declined again last year, as Americans continue to drug and kill themselves at record rates.

Social scientists have long since established the link between religiosity and life satisfaction. As social psychologist Sonja Lyubomirsky observes, people who attend religious services several times each week are nearly twice as likely as those who worship less than once a month to describe themselves as “very happy.” Such psychologists simply state the obvious: the belief that God loves you and that you will live with him in eternity offers greater consolation than the view of death as a dirt nap that stiffens you into worm food.

Religious people are also significantly more likely to engage in happy-making behaviors, such as getting and staying married. A study released in 2017 affirmed what countless others had already shown: married couples report higher life satisfaction than their single, divorced, and widowed neighbors. That satisfaction tends to last beyond the honeymoon and well into old age.

The misery epidemic threatens not merely American households but also our halls of power. The late Andrew Breitbart observed that politics is downstream of culture, and culture in turn is downstream of religion. “Cult” and “culture” are etymologically related, and a culture is defined by what it worships. A materialistic culture worships wealth; a licentious culture worships sex; a godly culture worships God. But “our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people,” as John Adams wrote to the Massachusetts militia in 1798. “It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

A miserable politics awaits us when the irreligious rot flows downstream. Who but God can help us now?

https://www.dailywire.com/news/45655/god-help-us-atheism-becomes-largest-religion-us-michael-j-knowles
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on April 09, 2019, 11:44:38 AM
What the deuce??   ???

Pete Buttigieg questions whether Trump believes in God
By Aaron Feis April 3, 2019

Democratic presidential hopeful Pete Buttigieg questioned whether President Trump believes in God in an interview published Wednesday.

“I’m reluctant to comment on another person’s faith, but I would say it is hard to look at this president’s actions and believe that they’re the actions of somebody who believes in God,” the mayor of South Bend, Ind., told USA Today.

“I just don’t understand how you can be as worshipful of your own self as he is and be prepared to humble yourself before God.

“I’ve never seen him humble himself before anyone.”

Buttigieg, an avowed Episcopalian, contended that Trump’s largely evangelical Christian base focuses “so much about what Christ said so little about, and so little about what he said so much about.”

“When I think about where most of Scripture points me, it is toward defending the poor, and the immigrant, and the stranger, and the prisoner, and the outcast, and those who are left behind by the way society works,” Buttigieg said.

“And what we have now is this exaltation of wealth and power, almost for its own sake, that in my reading of Scripture couldn’t be more contrary to the message of Christianity.”

https://nypost.com/2019/04/03/pete-buttigieg-questions-whether-trump-believes-in-god/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on April 09, 2019, 11:49:56 AM
What the deuce??   ???

Pete Buttigieg questions whether Trump believes in God
By Aaron Feis April 3, 2019

Democratic presidential hopeful Pete Buttigieg questioned whether President Trump believes in God in an interview published Wednesday.

“I’m reluctant to comment on another person’s faith, but I would say it is hard to look at this president’s actions and believe that they’re the actions of somebody who believes in God,” the mayor of South Bend, Ind., told USA Today.

“I just don’t understand how you can be as worshipful of your own self as he is and be prepared to humble yourself before God.

“I’ve never seen him humble himself before anyone.”

Buttigieg, an avowed Episcopalian, contended that Trump’s largely evangelical Christian base focuses “so much about what Christ said so little about, and so little about what he said so much about.”

“When I think about where most of Scripture points me, it is toward defending the poor, and the immigrant, and the stranger, and the prisoner, and the outcast, and those who are left behind by the way society works,” Buttigieg said.

“And what we have now is this exaltation of wealth and power, almost for its own sake, that in my reading of Scripture couldn’t be more contrary to the message of Christianity.”

https://nypost.com/2019/04/03/pete-buttigieg-questions-whether-trump-believes-in-god/

Pete "Buttplug" Buttigieg talking about scripture and what it means to him.  I guess he never read about Sodom & Gomorrah.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on April 09, 2019, 04:47:50 PM
Eastern Kentucky man sues Hampton Inn, accuses boss of trying to force exorcism on him

HAZARD, Ky. (WKYT) - An eastern Kentucky man has filed a lawsuit against Hampton Inn and his boss after he says he was punished for not undergoing an exorcism.

The lawsuit was filed in Perry Circuit Court in March, and the plaintiff is Jason Fields of Leslie County. The defendants are Hampton Inn, Employee Resource Group and Sharon Lindon.

Fields states in the lawsuit he started working at Hampton Inn as a front desk employee beginning in 2016. Sharon Lindon, his manager, learned Fields was going through a divorce and believed his marital problems were because he had demons.

Lindon is accused of telling Fields he had to get cleansed in order to keep working at the hotel. Lindon gave Fields a questionnaire with many questions about religion and intimate activities. Fields said in the Lawsuit he was asked to return it to Lindon before undergoing an exorcism.

Fields accuses Lindon of punishing him for not participating in the questionnaire and exorcism by changing his shift and bringing in people from her ministry to pray for him while he was working. This would happen in front of the guests. This would lead Fields to quit his job.

https://www.wkyt.com/content/news/Eastern-Kentucky-man-sues-Hampton-Inn-accuses-boss-of-trying-to-force-exorcism-on-him-507789871.html

Quote


The form given to the Plaintiff, which Lindon demanded that he complete, contained a number of questions, including, but not limited to, the following:

a) What is your church background?
b) Briefly explain your conversion experience.
c) Were you baptized as a child?
d) In one word, who is Jesus Christ to you?
e) What does the blood of Calvary mean to you?
f) Is repentance part of your Christian life?
g) What is your prayer life like?
h) Were you a planned child?
i) Were you conceived out of wedlock? 
j) Have you personally ever had psychiatric counseling?
k) Have you, your parents or grandparents been in any cults?
l) Have you ever made a pact with the devil?
m) Have you ever been involved in Eastern religion?
n) Have you ever visited heathen temples?
o) Do you have any witches, such as “good luck kitchen witches,” in your home?
p) Do you have lustful thoughts?
q) To your knowledge, was their evidence of lust in your family line?
r) Do you frequently masturbate?
s) Have you ever been a victim of incest by a family member?
t) Have you ever committed incest, rape or molested anyone?
u) Have you ever committed fornication, adultery, been with prostitutes, had homosexual or lesbian desires or experience?
v) Have you ever sexually fantasized about an animal?
w) Have you been in involved in oral or anal sex?
x) Have you fathered a child that has been aborted? 
y) Has pornography ever attracted you?
z) Do you have desires of having sex with a child?
 
Under the question “Have you, your parents or grandparents been in any cults?”, the following items, with many others, were listed to be circled:
a) Christian Science
b) Jehovah’s Witness
c) Unification Church
d) Children of Love
e) Buddhism
f) Native religions
g) Mormons
h) Islam
 
Questions were also listed to be answered as to whether Jason, or any close family member, belonged to any of the following:
a) Freemason
b) Shriner
c) Elk
d) Oddfellow
e) Mormon
 
 The Plaintiff was told once he had completed the questionnaire, he would need to meet Lindon at the church and have a cleansing performed.

https://www.scribd.com/document/403515237/Perry-County-Hampton-Inn-Lawsuit
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on April 09, 2019, 04:54:06 PM
Federal grand jury empaneled to investigate Buffalo Diocese

Prosecutors may be looking to build RICO case


A federal grand jury has been seated to investigate sexual abuse cover-up in the Catholic Church -- and Buffalo appears to be the epicenter of the investigation.

That's according to Barry N. Covert and another attorney who spoke with 7 Eyewitness News about the third round of subpoenas issued to Bishop Richard J. Malone and the Diocese of Buffalo.

The Buffalo News first reported the subpoenas were issued last month, but Covert -- an attorney who said federal authorities have requested files related to his client -- said the subpoenas are different than the first two rounds issued by federal investigators because they are the first confirmation of a federal grand jury investigating clergy abuse cover-up in Western New York.

"We think that they could be looking at RICO," Covert said. "The obstruction of justice, which is a predicate act. Moving priests around. Did they destroy any records? Did they withhold any records? Were there any incorrect, untruthful communications to law enforcement? And fraud is also a predicate act."

https://www.wkbw.com/news/i-team/federal-grand-jury-empaneled-to-investigate-buffalo-diocese
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 02, 2019, 05:43:53 PM
It seems that aside from tax exemptions, there could also be a religious exemption for money laundering and other crimes. I doubt that many people could launder or embezzle $200,000 and get away with it for "leading a selfless life". This judge should be not be anywhere near a court.

Rabbi found guilty of money laundering won’t go to prison thanks to a ‘selfless life,’ judge says

A New Jersey rabbi found guilty of laundering $200,000 from a private school for children with developmental disabilities was sentenced Monday afternoon to two years probation. As part of his probation, Eisemann cannot be involved with finances at the school or fundraising, must serve 60 days in the Middlesex County Correctional Facility and pay a fine of $250,000.

Osher Eisemann, 62, founded the Lakewood-based School for Children with Hidden Intelligence during the 1990s, inspired by his own son’s special needs. He was found guilty in February of second degree charges of money laundering and misconduct by a corporate official at the close of a four-week trial.

The second degree charges can carry sentences of five to 10 years in state prison, but Judge Benjamin Bucca found the mitigating factors outweighed the aggravating factors in the sentencing, moving him to hand down the rare sentence of probation, which skirted mandatory minimums.

“At this stage in this man’s life, I cannot imagine that this situation could ever occur again," Bucca said. “The seriousness of the allegations and the harm that occurred is much less than what this court typically sees with other second degree crimes.”

Bucca said the letters sent by Eisemann’s supporters “overwhelmed” him, and that he had not seen such a showing of support in his years sitting as a criminal judge.

He said the rabbi’s “selfless life is very clear. In many respects this is a very, very unfortunate situation.”

Bucca also said he hopes Eisemann can return to the school, despite the second degree conviction, and hopes the state Department of Education will consider making an exception, given Eisemann’s decades-long reputation.

“You belong there, you perform a unique skill for that school.”

https://www.nj.com/news/2019/04/rabbi-found-guilty-of-money-laundering-wont-go-to-prison-thanks-to-a-selfless-life-judge-says.html


For more context, this appears to be the judge:

Christie Judge Nominee Stripped of Pension by Fraud & Abuse Unit

Benjamin S. Bucca, a New Brunswick Democrat, was recently nominated by Republican Governor Christopher J. Christie to be a Superior Court judge, despite a pattern of not recognizing when he has a conflict of interest.

If approved by the State Senate Judiciary Committee, and the full State Senate, Bucca would go from being a local land use lawyer who just lost most of his public pension, to securing a seven-year term for the $165,000 per year judge job.

Bucca was recently found to be unlawfully accumulating pension credits for his city government work over the past two decades, thanks to an investigation undertaken by a new fraud and abuse unit created by Christie himself.

https://newbrunswicktoday.com/article/christie-superior-court-nominee-stripped-pension-fraud-abuse-unit
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 03, 2019, 09:29:55 AM
'Love One Another': National Day of Prayer Kicks Off With Call for Americans to Follow 'the Golden Rule'
05-02-2019
Abigail Robertson

President Trump Calls on Americans to Use the 'Power of Prayer' to End Violence and Protect Religious Liberty

'Pray Like It Really Matters': Dr. Ronnie Floyd's Urgent Message on the National Day of Prayer

WASHINGTON - Today is the National Day of Prayer and all over the country people are gathering together to pray, even on Capitol Hill.

Each year leading up to the day, a group sets up in front of the Capitol, rain or shine, for a 90-hour Bible reading marathon. This year around 400 people from around the country have participated – including a few lawmakers.
 
Keith Davidson, founder of Seedline International, is leading this year's event. He tells CBN News volunteers are even there reading through the wee hours of the night.  "We had a lady last night that was on standby from Alabama and flew in just to read, and she left back out at 6am this morning," said Davidson.

READ 'Prayer Works Miracles and Prayer Saves Lives': Trump Cites Power of Prayer in Rose Garden Service
 
This annual tradition dates back to 1990. This year they have over 100 Bible translations and versions to choose from and they hope to add even more next year.
 
"We have a Farsi Bible and folks can come by and read that in their language, we also have a Russian Bible and we have a Chinese Bible that a group yesterday, a Chinese church actually here in Washington, DC, brought out," continued Davidson.

The event concludes on the National Day of Prayer when a group gathers to read aloud the final chapter of Revelation.
 
The theme for this year's National Day of Prayer is "Love One Another".
 
"It's an appropriate theme, especially for this time," Congressman Mike Johnson (R-LA) tells CBN News.

Johnson is spearheading efforts towards unity in Congress by co-chairing the Honor and Civility Caucus with Rep. Charlie Crist (D-FL).
 
"It's a bipartisan effort to just get members to talk to each other, and basically follow the Golden Rule to treat one another with dignity and respect as fellow Americans and part of the American family," says Johnson.
 
Lawmakers and faith leaders like Dr. Ronnie Floyd and Pastor Andrew Brunson will join together inside the nation's Capitol Thursday night to pray.
 
"It's one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had, to be able to come right in Statuary Hall, right in the centerpiece, the epicenter of American government, and to be able to pray and sing and worship and have this kind of service we will have," says Congressman Jody Hice (R-GA), a former pastor who will be speaking at Thursday's event.

President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence held a Rose Garden ceremony where the president announced new protections for religious liberty. More about that here.

National Day of Prayer events are happening all over the country. To see if there is one in your area, click here.

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/may/love-one-another-national-day-of-prayer-kicks-off-with-call-for-americans-to-follow-the-golden-rule
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 03, 2019, 10:40:13 AM
Excellent observation !

GOD aka "our creator" is used in our preamble to the American Declaration of Independence.
" In GOD we trust"is written on our money and a group prayer starts/ends many official public gatherings.

I'm sure you know the establishment clause under our 1st ammendment has 2 parts:
1. The GOV will not restrict (or enforce) religious worship
2. The GOV will not sanction a state sponsored religion

I'm no atheist , but I don't follow any single religion.
I believe in GOD, similar in the way Thomas Jefferson did , free from religeous dogma.

In that light, I see no harm in having a basic group prayer, free from preaching or converting.
The Hebrew bible provides  the origins of morals and laws in Western Civilization.
That's a long and storied history and can't be easily dismissed on the influence of our culture and society.


Good post now
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 03, 2019, 11:39:11 AM
LOL, but in my opinion, the moral stories and ideals promoted in the Bible are the basis for much of our moral conduct and laws.

For example, if you rape a virgin, and are caught, you must pay 50 shekels to the father and marry your rape victim?

If you beat your slave, male or female with a rod, and the slave eventually recovers, you will not be punished because they are your property?

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 03, 2019, 12:08:15 PM
Excellent observation !

GOD aka "our creator" is used in our preamble to the American Declaration of Independence.
" In GOD we trust"is written on our money and a group prayer starts/ends many official public gatherings.

I'm sure you know the establishment clause under our 1st ammendment has 2 parts:
1. The GOV will not restrict (or enforce) religious worship
2. The GOV will not sanction a state sponsored religion

I'm no atheist , but I don't follow any single religion.
I believe in GOD, similar in the way Thomas Jefferson did , free from religeous dogma.

In that light, I see no harm in having a basic group prayer, free from preaching or converting.
The Hebrew bible provides  the origins of morals and laws in Western Civilization.
That's a long and storied history and can't be easily dismissed on the influence of our culture and society.


No, the Establishment Clause does not have two parts. 

The Establishment Clause has one part:  "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

The Free Exercise Clause has one part:  "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 06, 2019, 02:15:21 PM
Dos,
I consider them 2 intregal parts of the same thing, but I won't argue with the technical legal merits of your point.

I would like to hear more about your views on this issue.
Thanks


They're not the same thing.  I'm not making any kind of technical legal point.  It's a practical, accurate point.  For anyone who might be reading this.

Views on what part of this issue? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 06, 2019, 04:58:19 PM
For example, if you rape a virgin, and are caught, you must pay 50 shekels to the father and marry your rape victim?

If you beat your slave, male or female with a rod, and the slave eventually recovers, you will not be punished because they are your property?


Those were the Jewish, Old Testament (Torah) laws.  Christ brought a new law.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 06, 2019, 06:22:55 PM
Shocking video of children in Philadelphia Muslim Society: 'We will chop off their heads' for Allah

Disturbing footage of Muslim kids saying they would sacrifice themselves and kill for the "army of Allah" surfaced from an Islamic center in Philadelphia.

The Muslim American Society (MAS) Islamic Center in Philadelphia posted the video to its Facebook page celebrating "Ummah Day" in which young children wearing Palestinian scarves sang and read poetry about killing for Allah and the mosque in Jerusalem.



https://www.foxnews.com/us/video-philadelphia-muslim-society-children


The irony is rich in their list of "achievements", according to their website:


https://www.muslimamericansociety.org/about/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 07, 2019, 11:10:22 AM
Atheist group sues over Bible display at VA hospital in New Hampshire
Caleb Parke By Caleb Parke | Fox News
(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2019/05/1862/1048/vA-bible-2.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
A Bible donated by a World War II veteran on display in a Manchester VA Medical Center memorial is at the center of a lawsuit filed by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation on behalf of a New Hampshire veteran. (Courtesy of First Liberty Institute)

An atheist group filed a lawsuit against the Department of Veterans Affairs over a Bible displayed at a VA facility in New Hampshire.

The group called the Bible's presence in the missing veterans and POWs memorial unconstitutional and an “outrage,” but the VA says it won't be "bullied" into removing the Bible from the display.

The Bible was donated to Manchester VA Medical Center by former U.S. Army Air Corps Technical Sergeant (TSgt) Herman "Herk" Streitburger, of Bedford, who was held captive in a German Prisoner of War camp during World War II.

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation said it filed the lawsuit on behalf of a New Hampshire veteran.

“That is stamping it with the approval of raising one faith over all the others,” Mikey Weinstein, the founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, told USA Today. “From our perspective, it’s a repugnant example of fundamentalist Christian triumphalism, exceptionalism, superiority, and domination, and it cannot stand.”

(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2019/03/1862/1048/VAbible.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
A Bible donated by a World War II veteran on display in a Manchester VA Medical Center memorial is at the center of a lawsuit filed by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation on behalf of a New Hampshire veteran. (Office of Public Affairs, Manchester VA Medical Center via AP)

Department of Veteran Affair Press Secretary Curt Cashour told Fox News the Bible, although incorrectly moved earlier this year, stays.

"This lawsuit – backed by a group known for questionable practices and unsuccessful lawsuits – is nothing more than an attempt to force VA into censoring a show of respect for America’s POW/MIA community," Cashour said. "Make no mistake: VA will not be bullied on this issue."

The VA briefly removed the Bible from the display case when MRFF initially complained about it, but put it back following an outpouring of complaints from veterans groups and religious liberty groups, including the First Liberty Institute, the same law firm that argued on behalf of the Bladensburg "Peace Cross" memorial in front of the Supreme Court earlier this year.

The MRFF lawsuit described the New Hampshire veteran, James Chamberlain, as a “devout Christian” who wants the Bible removed from the display.

“As a Christian, he respects and loves all his military brothers and sisters and does not want to be exclusionary by placement of the Christian Bible,” the complaint says.

The lawsuit seeks an injunction requiring that the Bible be removed from the display.

Those in favor of keeping the Bible on display said the lawsuit is frivolous.

“POW/MIA Remembrance displays have a long, cherished history in our nation,” said Mike Berry, chief of staff at the First Liberty Institute. “Veterans organizations like the Northeast POW/MIA Network should be able to honor and remember those killed, captured or missing with a display that includes a Bible donated by a WWII veteran that represents the strength through faith necessary for American service members to survive.”

https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/atheist-group-sues-over-bible-display-at-va-hospital-in-new-hampshire
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 09, 2019, 09:03:25 PM
The US government just officially recognized the Satanic Temple as a religion
Matthew Bell, PRI's The World May 7, 2019
(https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5cd1a8a8021b4c00b905a8c8-2732-1832.jpg)
Lucien Greaves, spokesman for The Satanic Temple, with a statue of Baphomet at the group's meeting house in Salem, MA. Josh Reynolds for The Washington Post via Getty Images
The Satanic Temple has earned the same tax-exempt status as a church by the IRS.
The Satanic Temple is growing rapidly, with around 20 chapters across the US, and affiliate groups in Canada, Australia, Germany, and the UK.
While members of the Satanic Temple see the mythological, and literary, figure of Satan as a symbol of rebellion against tyranny, they do not worship Satan in any way.

There's a new religion in America.

The Satanic Temple has earned the same tax-exempt status as a church by the IRS. The group has been around for a half-dozen years and grabbed news attention for its political activism. But the official US government recognition and a recent documentary film are bringing a new level of attention to the group.

The Satanic Temple headquarters is a handsome, old, New England house — which was also a funeral home — in the center of Salem, Massachusetts.


"This is our primary events room," said Lucien Greaves, co-founder and spokesman of the Satanic Temple. "We weekly have people get together here; I guess you would say congregate."

Greaves gives a tour of the temple building and art gallery, pointing out some of the ways that the place functions as a religious center.

Besides the gathering area, there is a small library with significant works of Satanic literature and history. A historic relic is on display. It's a 2-foot tall monument for veterans, in the form of a metal cube with a reversed pentagram on the front and an upturned military helmet on top.

The Satanic Temple is suing the city of Belle Plain, Minnesota, for reversing a decision to install the monument in a memorial park.

The main attraction, though, is an 8-foot, 6-inch bronze statue of a goat-headed, winged icon called Baphomet. Asked if the Satanists here consider the monument to be holy, Greaves says it's a loaded term.

"Words like 'spiritual' or "holy," I think — one of the first things that people need to realize about us is that we don't advocate for any supernatural beliefs. We're a nontheistic religion. We don't subscribe to supernatural explanations or accept them as legitimate," Greaves said.

He explains that while members of the Satanic Temple see the mythological, and literary, figure of Satan as a symbol of rebellion against tyranny, they do not worship Satan in any way.

"This idea of worship, it's usually kind of insulting to people who identify with Satanism, because that implies a sense of servility. Satanism is about personal sovereignty and independence and freedom of will," he said.

Read more: What it's like at the world's first Satanic Temple headquarters

The group is also about trolling the religious right.

"I mean, that can be part of the fun, but it's certainly only just part of it," Greaves said.

The trolling, the beliefs and the short history of the Satanic Temple are on vivid display in a new documentary called "Hail Satan?"

"I also assumed it was basically a joke," said the filmmaker behind the documentary, Penny Lane.

Lane spent a few years following the founders of the Satanic Temple as they got their movement up and running with a range of public pranks, social protests, and legal action, many of them centered around issues of separation of church and state. But Lane says she came away from the film believing that there is something deeper going on with the Satanic Temple — something religious.

"I had never understood why people are religious and what they get from it," Lane said. "But it was really doing this project that made me see that religion, in and of itself, is not the problem."

"Religion is a human impulse that has to be satisfied one way or another. We still need to come together in communities organized around values and mythology. I think the Satanic Temple is just showing me a new way."

But what makes a religion legitimate in the eyes of government?

Different countries handle that question differently.

In China, there are just five officially recognized religions, and they're all overseen by the State Administration for Religious Affairs. Some Western countries have official state churches, like the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland and the Church of England.

The Satanic Temple
The Satanic Temple, a group of political activists who identify themselves as a religious sect, are seeking to establish After-School Satan clubs as a counterpart to fundamentalist Christian Good News Clubs. Josh Reynolds for The Washington Post via Getty Images
The United States has no state church and no religious bureaucracy. That means it's really up to the IRS to decide if a new entity claiming to be religious deserves tax-exempt status and the official recognition that comes with it.

Benjamin Zeller is a religion scholar at Lake Forest College. He says he was not surprised with this IRS decision. But does he think the Satanic Temple is a real religion?

"The way we tend to use the word is really based on a very sort of Protestant Christian understanding about what counts as a religion," Zeller said.

"We tend to think about institutions that have leaders, texts, buildings, adherents, beliefs, rituals. The Satanic Temple actually checks those boxes, at least most of them. We may not like it. We may not think of it as a conventional religion, but it seems to fit the characteristics."

Thanks in part to the IRS decision and the new documentary, the Satanic Temple is entering a phase of rapid growth. It's got something like 20 chapters across the US, and affiliate groups in Canada, Australia, Germany, and the UK, with more seeking approval from the Satanic Temple.

Co-founder Lucien Greaves also gives credit for this to some of his biggest critics.

"In a way, the Satanic Temple has enjoyed such expansive, explosive growth because of the rise of the theocratic right in the United States," he said. "Our expansive membership numbers are a response to the Trump administration and Pence being vice president. People are horrified."

the satanic temple
Chris Bridges holds a sign for The Satanic Temple during a protest outside of an all-day prayer rally. Associated Press/Jonathan Bachman
The core beliefs of the Satanic Temple are laid out in its so-called seven tenets. They mention personal freedom, including the freedom to offend, the pursuit of justice, and the value of scientific understanding. Tenet No. 1 reads, "Strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason."

Greaves says the group is serious about nonviolence. Maintaining ideological consistency could be a challenge the organization faces right now as it grows quickly.

"We're to the point now where we're already big enough and our message has resonated with people strongly enough that we've developed schisms, and people disagree with some of our tactics with how we approach injustice and other types of activism."

No spoiler here, but there's an episode that plays out in the "Hail Satan?" film, when one of the group's leaders does something that crosses the line in the view of some other leaders. Greaves needs to make a difficult decision.

It's the sort of problem comes with the territory, as the Satanic Temple evolves from being a small band of pranksters into something more like an established religious organization.

Read the original article on PRI's The World. Copyright 2019. Follow PRI's The World on Twitter.

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-just-officially-recognized-the-satanic-temple-as-a-religion-2019-5?utm_content=buffer9f1e5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-bi&fbclid=IwAR3qycwgOlq1OgYm787H0G-ttK1HgdsREh1nWh3O27ZqUmLAeU0EV4VE6gc
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 14, 2019, 02:46:07 PM
It seems that aside from tax exemptions, there could also be a religious exemption for money laundering and other crimes. I doubt that many people could launder or embezzle $200,000 and get away with it for "leading a selfless life". This judge should be not be anywhere near a court.

Rabbi found guilty of money laundering won’t go to prison thanks to a ‘selfless life,’ judge says

A New Jersey rabbi found guilty of laundering $200,000 from a private school for children with developmental disabilities was sentenced Monday afternoon to two years probation. As part of his probation, Eisemann cannot be involved with finances at the school or fundraising, must serve 60 days in the Middlesex County Correctional Facility and pay a fine of $250,000.

Osher Eisemann, 62, founded the Lakewood-based School for Children with Hidden Intelligence during the 1990s, inspired by his own son’s special needs. He was found guilty in February of second degree charges of money laundering and misconduct by a corporate official at the close of a four-week trial.

The second degree charges can carry sentences of five to 10 years in state prison, but Judge Benjamin Bucca found the mitigating factors outweighed the aggravating factors in the sentencing, moving him to hand down the rare sentence of probation, which skirted mandatory minimums.

“At this stage in this man’s life, I cannot imagine that this situation could ever occur again," Bucca said. “The seriousness of the allegations and the harm that occurred is much less than what this court typically sees with other second degree crimes.”

Bucca said the letters sent by Eisemann’s supporters “overwhelmed” him, and that he had not seen such a showing of support in his years sitting as a criminal judge.

He said the rabbi’s “selfless life is very clear. In many respects this is a very, very unfortunate situation.”

Bucca also said he hopes Eisemann can return to the school, despite the second degree conviction, and hopes the state Department of Education will consider making an exception, given Eisemann’s decades-long reputation.

“You belong there, you perform a unique skill for that school.”

https://www.nj.com/news/2019/04/rabbi-found-guilty-of-money-laundering-wont-go-to-prison-thanks-to-a-selfless-life-judge-says.html


For more context, this appears to be the judge:

Christie Judge Nominee Stripped of Pension by Fraud & Abuse Unit

Benjamin S. Bucca, a New Brunswick Democrat, was recently nominated by Republican Governor Christopher J. Christie to be a Superior Court judge, despite a pattern of not recognizing when he has a conflict of interest.

If approved by the State Senate Judiciary Committee, and the full State Senate, Bucca would go from being a local land use lawyer who just lost most of his public pension, to securing a seven-year term for the $165,000 per year judge job.

Bucca was recently found to be unlawfully accumulating pension credits for his city government work over the past two decades, thanks to an investigation undertaken by a new fraud and abuse unit created by Christie himself.

https://newbrunswicktoday.com/article/christie-superior-court-nominee-stripped-pension-fraud-abuse-unit

And another one... From 72 years max sentence for the repeated rape, over 4 years, of his adopted 14 year old daughter, he only gets 12... Incredible that he has so many "supporters".

Former pastor sentenced to 12 years in prison for repeated rape of adopted daughter

A former pastor convicted of repeatedly raping his adopted teenage daughter was handed an effective sentence of 12 years in prison Thursday by a Knox County judge, who weighed the severity of the crimes against an outpouring of support for the man from friends and family in court.

Forensic testing uncovered the presence of seminal fluid with a DNA profile matching that of David Richards on the girl's bed frame. A Knox County jury found Richards guilty on nine felony counts, including rape, incest and sexual battery by an authority figure following three days of testimony in February.

The judge acknowledged Richards' longtime ministry — he began a Bible study among his fellow inmates while jailed at the Knox County Detention Facility — and the support he still receives as mitigating factors. Sword had wide latitude in his sentencing decision — most of the charges Richards was convicted of, including rape, are punishable by probation alone under state law. Only the charge of sexual battery by an authority figure requires a minimum of three years' mandatory incarceration. Prosecutors sought the maximum term of 72 years behind bars.

More than 30 people sat on the defendant's side of the courtroom in a show of support, including David Thompson, who shared ministry duties with Richards at My Father's House Church of God in Lenoir City.

"I find it impossible for me to believe he's guilty of this," said Thompson, who echoed the call for leniency. "His business needs him. His family needs him. Our church needs him."

https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2019/05/09/former-pastor-nets-12-year-prison-term-rape-adopted-daughter-david-lynn-richards/1143006001/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 21, 2019, 02:02:59 PM
Those were the Jewish, Old Testament (Torah) laws.  Christ brought a new law.

Perhaps, but it doesn't erase the fact, that at some point, this alleged God, instructed men on how to beat a slave, consider them your property, etc. Now honestly, does it sound like a Gods law, or men of that times law?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 22, 2019, 02:46:41 AM
Perhaps, but it doesn't erase the fact, that at some point, this alleged God, instructed men on how to beat a slave, consider them your property, etc. Now honestly, does it sound like a Gods law, or men of that times law?
Baby steps.  That was the consciousness level at that time.  Christ brought a new updated law.  Later we created even higher ethics.  Even if the Bible were totally made up does not mean God or Gods don't exist.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 22, 2019, 07:15:54 PM
Perhaps, but it doesn't erase the fact, that at some point, this alleged God, instructed men on how to beat a slave, consider them your property, etc. Now honestly, does it sound like a Gods law, or men of that times law?

If you had even a modicum of intelligence you would never had posited this dross.  For ages, men have done not just stupid things but also evil things and said it was "the will of the gods" or "God".  A Man knows that men do evil for their own gain and call it "divine will" to win over the weak.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 22, 2019, 11:33:46 PM
If you had even a modicum of intelligence you would never had posited this dross.  For ages, men have done not just stupid things but also evil things and said it was "the will of the gods" or "God".  A Man knows that men do evil for their own gain and call it "divine will" to win over the weak.



You sure are an inbred hillbilly.  It isn't that men do or did stupid things it's that the "holy book" sent from "god" instructs and/or sanctions the doing of stupid/evil things.

@Humble Nincompoop - Most if not all Christians still fall back on the old testament when it suits there needs.  If Christ truly brought new laws, then all Christians should renounce fully the old testament. 

Two typists.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 23, 2019, 01:41:29 AM
You sure are an inbred hillbilly.  It isn't that men do or did stupid things it's that the "holy book" sent from "god" instructs and/or sanctions the doing of stupid/evil things.

@Humble Nincompoop - Most if not all Christians still fall back on the old testament when it suits there needs.  If Christ truly brought new laws, then all Christians should renounce fully the old testament. 

Two typists.
"Most if not all Christians still fall back on the old testament when it suits their needs."  So you you know how most if not all Christians live and think?  I'm guessing by your name Abraham you're just an angry Jew.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 23, 2019, 05:46:02 PM
You sure are an inbred hillbilly.  It isn't that men do or did stupid things it's that the "holy book" sent from "god" instructs and/or sanctions the doing of stupid/evil things.

@Humble Nincompoop - Most if not all Christians still fall back on the old testament when it suits there needs.  If Christ truly brought new laws, then all Christians should renounce fully the old testament. 

Two typists.
[/quote

Pathetic.  Simply pathetic. You have no idea of what goes on in  the real world let alone this little Matrix and the inhabitants thereof.  As that was over your head, allow me.

U B 1 DUMB MOFO WUT DONNO SHEIT FRUM SHINOLA.

 'n' sheit.  Now go fuck another close relative and get back to us on how your latest "audition" for a "fambly based reality show" went.  IOL.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 23, 2019, 09:21:17 PM
If you had even a modicum of intelligence you would never had posited this dross.  For ages, men have done not just stupid things but also evil things and said it was "the will of the gods" or "God".  A Man knows that men do evil for their own gain and call it "divine will" to win over the weak.



Whoa.. hold on Scotts dude. The background is the Christian states the bible is the word of god. When the "word of god" condones beating a female slave almost to death, because it is your property, only a naive imbecile would declare that was really an order from god... If you can dispute this statement, have at it.. but stop with the superior attitude, you haven't earned it
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 23, 2019, 09:22:01 PM
You sure are an inbred hillbilly.  It isn't that men do or did stupid things it's that the "holy book" sent from "god" instructs and/or sanctions the doing of stupid/evil things.

@Humble Nincompoop - Most if not all Christians still fall back on the old testament when it suits there needs.  If Christ truly brought new laws, then all Christians should renounce fully the old testament. 

Two typists.

well said
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 24, 2019, 01:28:59 PM
He calls the money "God's blessings".

Pastor at suburban West Palm church won’t turn over $1.7 million

Federal officials say the money came from people caught in a $30 million Ponzi scheme

Calling it “God’s blessings,” the pastor of a suburban West Palm Beach church on Thursday refused to turn over $1.7 million that financial regulators claim rightfully belongs to people who were ensnared in a $30 million Ponzi scheme.

A federal judge has temporarily frozen the accounts of Winners Church and its top pastors, Fred and Whitney Shipman. In an unusual move, the father and son leaders of the 25-year-old Jog Road church are fighting efforts that would allow the money to be returned to hundreds of people who were lured into a far-flung diamond and bitcoin investment scam.

Attorney Carl Schoeppl, who is representing the church and the Shipmans, claims the church can’t be forced to turn over the money because it’s a nonprofit religious institution. It is protected by a Florida law that dictates that a donation “received in good faith by a qualified religious or charitable entity or organization is not a fraudulent transfer.” Since neither the church nor the Shipmans knew about Aman’s illicit operation they can keep the money, Schoeppl told Rosenberg.

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190523/pastor-at-suburban-west-palm-church-wont-turn-over-17-million
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 24, 2019, 02:11:21 PM
5 former Michigan Catholic priests charged with sex crimes

Michigan prosecutors announced Friday that five former Catholic priests are facing sexual abuse charges as part of the state attorney general's ongoing investigation into clergy abuse going back decades.

Attorney General Dana Nessel said the priests served in dioceses in Detroit, Lansing and Kalamazoo, and that they've been charged with various counts of criminal sexual conduct. Four of them were arrested this week in Arizona, California, Florida and Michigan, and the fifth awaits extradition from India.

A sixth priest faces an administrative complaint and has had his counseling license suspended by the state, officials said.

Nearly all of the charges, which involve victims who were as young as 5 years old when they were abused, came from roughly 450 calls to a tip line and were corroborated by files seized from dioceses last fall and interviews with multiple victims, Nessel said. She added that the cases are just the "tip of the iceberg," as investigators have only gone through at most 10% of the information they have obtained. They also found many cases in which they could not bring charges because statutes of limitation had expired, priests had died or victims wouldn't come forward.

Those charged were Timothy Crowley, 69, of Tempe, Arizona; Neil Kalina, 63, of Littlerock, California; Vincent DeLorenzo, 80, of Lantana, Florida; Patrick Casey, 55, of Bellaire, Michigan; and Jacob Vellian, 84, of Kerala, India. It wasn't immediately clear if they have attorneys.

DeLorenzo was charged Thursday with three counts each of first- and second-degree criminal sexual conduct. DeLorenzo, who served several Michigan churches, admitted when he resigned from a Flint-area parish in 2002 that he had sexually abused a child. He wasn't charged at the time, but the Diocese of Lansing recently said a total of eight people had accused him of sexual abuse and that he was being defrocked.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/5-former-michigan-catholic-priests-charged-with-sex-crimes
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on May 24, 2019, 03:20:57 PM
Disgusting.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 26, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
5 former Michigan Catholic priests charged with sex crimes

Michigan prosecutors announced Friday that five former Catholic priests are facing sexual abuse charges as part of the state attorney general's ongoing investigation into clergy abuse going back decades.

Attorney General Dana Nessel said the priests served in dioceses in Detroit, Lansing and Kalamazoo, and that they've been charged with various counts of criminal sexual conduct. Four of them were arrested this week in Arizona, California, Florida and Michigan, and the fifth awaits extradition from India.

A sixth priest faces an administrative complaint and has had his counseling license suspended by the state, officials said.

Nearly all of the charges, which involve victims who were as young as 5 years old when they were abused, came from roughly 450 calls to a tip line and were corroborated by files seized from dioceses last fall and interviews with multiple victims, Nessel said. She added that the cases are just the "tip of the iceberg," as investigators have only gone through at most 10% of the information they have obtained. They also found many cases in which they could not bring charges because statutes of limitation had expired, priests had died or victims wouldn't come forward.

Those charged were Timothy Crowley, 69, of Tempe, Arizona; Neil Kalina, 63, of Littlerock, California; Vincent DeLorenzo, 80, of Lantana, Florida; Patrick Casey, 55, of Bellaire, Michigan; and Jacob Vellian, 84, of Kerala, India. It wasn't immediately clear if they have attorneys.

DeLorenzo was charged Thursday with three counts each of first- and second-degree criminal sexual conduct. DeLorenzo, who served several Michigan churches, admitted when he resigned from a Flint-area parish in 2002 that he had sexually abused a child. He wasn't charged at the time, but the Diocese of Lansing recently said a total of eight people had accused him of sexual abuse and that he was being defrocked.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/5-former-michigan-catholic-priests-charged-with-sex-crimes

Thank God my new Democrat AG was there to lower the boom. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on May 29, 2019, 08:07:13 AM
Perhaps, but it doesn't erase the fact, that at some point, this alleged God, instructed men on how to beat a slave, consider them your property, etc. Now honestly, does it sound like a Gods law, or men of that times law?

Exodus chapter 21 and in particular verse 20 is almost every biblical objectors favorite verse to quote (and always without context of course)

First a bit of context:

Yes, I find it morally correct that the rights of a bondservant working off an individual or family debt were upheld.   That’s the progressive nature of the law that protected the bondservant (“ebed” in Hebrew) within Israel that was found nowhere else in the pagan nations of the ancient near east.  

I absolutely know the perception is that these folks were kept in shackles, practically starved, beaten, maimed, raped and treated like human garbage based on the whims of the debt holder.   Just not the case (this was not ancient Egypt or the antebellum south in US).   Simple comparisons with other ancient near east cultures will show you that the slave (not the bondservant) was treated like human garbage in those cases.   The practices utilized with bond servants in ancient Israel were leaps and bounds above the slavery of surrounding pagan nations (these were the “work you to death, starve, maim, rape and beat you” cultures).  The reality is that there was virtually no comparison between the treatment of bondservants in ancient Israel versus the treatment of slaves in the surrounding pagan cultures.
 
The Israelites that had acquired debt (ex: through failed business, theft, failed crops, etc…) and were unable to repay entered into a contract with the debtholder to work off the debt.  As was customary in ancient Israel, sometimes individuals, individual and a family member or entire families worked off the debt.  If the debt was satisfied prior to 6 years of service then that was it….the bondservant was released.  If 6 years of service came and went and the debt was not repaid in full the debtholder simply lost out and the bond servant was to be released regardless.  Often times the released bondservant(s) was to be given compensation, lifestock, grains, wine, etc…..upon their release.  Sometimes the bondservants became full employees after the debt was settled and began earning a wage (if they chose to stay on board).  Sometimes bondservants chose to stay with the family they worked off debt for and continue the bondservitude after the debt was satisfied because they developed such a strong relationship with the family they owed a debt to.  Sometimes females bondservants became spouses of the owners or the owner's children (marriages were arranged) and as was customary the owner would pay out a brideprice to the bondservants family.   Within the year of jubilee many, many bondservants were released from their service regardless of time served or amount of debt repaid.

And yes sometimes the bondservants' performance or behavior was inappropriate and they were punished for it.   Although, the laws for bondservants didn't condone the capricious beating of the bondservant, the laws were meant to discourage that behavior on behalf of the owner.  If owner did something as vile as murder a bondservant then that owner lost their life.   Everyone quotes the scripture “if the owner beats the slave and slave recovers after 3 days……then all is good”.   This circumstance was simply an exception, not the norm, but the laws were meant to govern all circumstances both the good and the bad.  If the bondservant was beaten to a point in which they could not work they were supposed to be freed.  The debtholder/owner was engaged in a contract with the bondservant and that bondservant was deemed property, but human property for the purposes of sweat equity for debt repayment that retained rights and privileges and just treatment.  The owner was outlawed from ruling over the bondservant like a tyrant….that was not permitted.  Did they work some of these folks hard?  Sure.   Was that hard work intended to be cruel and brutal and relentless and unreasonable?  LOL no….that’s a fiction inferred by ignorant readers.

God’s ultimate goal was to lead Israel away from the practice of using bondservants altogether.  The Lord works within the confines of our lives drawing us closer to him and away from the adopted practices of our hardened hearts that we freely choose to engage in.  Regardless, the Lord is patient and will allow our free choices and some our less than desirable customs to be honored with the intention of leading us away from those practices.   The use of bondservants is not the preference of the Lord though.  Bondservants were also meant to respect their owners.  Remember, some of the bondservants were working off a debt based a crime they committted against the family that held their contract for debt repayment.  As I’ve said time and again on this topic it is completely illogical that God would free the Israelites from the brutal, forced slavery in Egypt and then allow them to engage in that same behavior among the people of their own nation.    Folks will simply say “well, that’s a biblical contradiction” LOL……sorry, no.  That’s ignorance on part of the critic that has done little more than a surface reading of the scripture.  When I first read the these scriptures I was SHOCKED, but then I dug in deeper and understood the culture of the Isaelites, the culture of the pagan nations, learned some of the Hebrew terms and the definitely gained insight on the context…..makes all the difference.

Now I know I wrote all of this and some will just reply with “b.s.” or “keep polishing that turd” or whatever other witty retort they can think of; regardless, I hope this was at least helpful.  I've learned that some religious objectors love their canned objections so much that they refuse to accept resolution when it's presented....I'm helpless to do anything about that.  Most people won't even read this LOL.

The rules for slavery regarding Israel in the OT had nothing to do with the antebellum South or the slavery they were delivered from in Egypt.  Two entirely different things....one was forced (ex: antebellum South and Israelites in Egypt) and the other was voluntary/customary for debt payment (ex: Israelites post-Egypt freedom).  One was about inhumanity (ex: antebellum South and Israelites in Egypt) and one was about the preservation of humanity and rights of the servant/slave while working off individual or family debt (ex: Israel post-Egypt freedom).  The word "slave" is always incorrecty associated with the antebellum South...just not the case for OT Israel.  

Many slaves/bond servants ended up staying with the very owner/family they worked for after their debts were satisfied because they chose to.  Many became full-time hands on the owners land receiving a normal wage.  These folks weren't "picking the cotton on Massah's plantation" and then being beaten and/or raped in the evenings.....no, no, no.

I know many have serious issues with slavery in the bible, but the "issue of slavery" doesn't carry the negative connotation often force fit onto it because of the words “slave” or ”slavery”.  It’s the culture and history of the Israelites who were delivered from the forced, "work til you die" slavery in Egypt that needs to be understood.   If the Israelite that held the debt did something to mistreat the bondservant working off the debt the holder of debt was punished.  God that freed the Israelites didn't turn around and say, "Ok, now y'all go ahead and enslave and mistreat others in the same manner you were just freed from".    

Now here's Exodus 21 in its entirety:

Exodus 21 English Standard Version (ESV)
Laws About Slaves
21 “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

12 “Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. 14 But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die.

15 “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

17 “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

18 “When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but takes to his bed, 19 then if the man rises again and walks outdoors with his staff, he who struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed.

20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

*** this is purely an exception to the norm, not instruction on or encouragement to engage in slave beating.  the idea was to treat the slave (bondservant) with respect but men are often disobedient and sometimes warrant punishment, but that punishment can't result in death.  The owner of the bondservant must exhibit restraint and compassion, but if they fail to do so and kill the slave/bondservant the slave/bondservant will be avenged and the master put to death as was stated in previous verses. ***

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

28 “When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. 29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. 31 If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. 32 If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels[e] of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

Laws About Restitution
33 “When a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, 34 the owner of the pit shall make restoration. He shall give money to its owner, and the dead beast shall be his.

35 “When one man's ox butts another's, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and share its price, and the dead beast also they shall share. 36 Or if it is known that the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has not kept it in, he shall repay ox for ox, and the dead beast shall be his.

So there you go, no instruction on how to beat a slave....that's pure fiction.  God knows sinful man's hearts are disobedient so he accounts for that fact.  Context always tells a different story than simply lifting a verse off a page with zero support or casually (and incorrectly) quoting a part of a verse in "mic drop" fashion, but hey whatever helps you sleep at night.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 29, 2019, 09:32:15 AM
Wasting your time with these heathens.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on May 29, 2019, 10:03:11 AM
Wasting your time with these heathens.

It's actually not for those folks known for their definite rejection of Christ, but for others that haven't made a decision about Christ.

I do my best to present the other side of the argument that most people never hear or read.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 29, 2019, 11:54:08 AM
Wasting your time with these heathens.

Actually his explanation raises more questions than it answers...which is not uncommon when you are trying to defend barbaric behavior. For example.. he posts that if a "Master" gives the slave a wife and the wife has children, when the time is up the husband can leave, but the wife and kids stay slaves. Now the husband could agree to be branded and remain a slave to stay with his family.. We are talking about a belief that these rules came from a god, the same god that rules today.. yet to anyone with some common sense, these were obviously man made rules, rules that fit nicely into their culture. Gods don't evolve, people do.. which is why we see evolution in the bible, the authors of the manuscripts of the bible were just people.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 29, 2019, 12:39:17 PM
Actually his explanation raises more questions than it answers...which is not uncommon when you are trying to defend barbaric behavior. For example.. he posts that if a "Master" gives the slave a wife and the wife has children, when the time is up the husband can leave, but the wife and kids stay slaves. Now the husband could agree to be branded and remain a slave to stay with his family.. We are talking about a belief that these rules came from a god, the same god that rules today.. yet to anyone with some common sense, these were obviously man made rules, rules that fit nicely into their culture. Gods don't evolve, people do.. which is why we see evolution in the bible, the authors of the manuscripts of the bible were just people.
You are basing your opinions on how we view things in our culture.  Slavery is not allowed anymore in our culture (personal ownership although some would argue our work culture is still slavery) but it was then.  We are assuming slaves had it bad but it was very hard to survive in that time and slavery to a rich man who could supply you with housing, food and protection from enemies could be advantageous.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 30, 2019, 09:30:42 AM
You are basing your opinions on how we view things in our culture.  Slavery is not allowed anymore in our culture (personal ownership although some would argue our work culture is still slavery) but it was then.  We are assuming slaves had it bad but it was very hard to survive in that time and slavery to a rich man who could supply you with housing, food and protection from enemies could be advantageous.

"I'm taking a more global view. I'm operating under the christian assumption that God is eternal, he never changes, he is omnipotent and he created humans and humans are his "children". He loved his "children" so much that he gave his only begotten son.. blah blah blah.

Based on those assumptions, The God of 2019 should be the same god of 2000 BC. Yet that god passed down a rule that refers to slaves as the property of other humans and gives guidance on beating them. Yeah.. doesn't sound too legit to me. Sounds like it originated from men, but that's just me.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on May 30, 2019, 01:48:32 PM
"I'm taking a more global view. I'm operating under the christian assumption that God is eternal, he never changes, he is omnipotent and he created humans and humans are his "children". He loved his "children" so much that he gave his only begotten son.. blah blah blah.

Based on those assumptions, The God of 2019 should be the same god of 2000 BC. Yet that god passed down a rule that refers to slaves as the property of other humans and gives guidance on beating them. Yeah.. doesn't sound too legit to me. Sounds like it originated from men, but that's just me.    

Dude, you care nothing about the response I gave.  I watched a couple of Hitchens debates yesterday and some street preaching vids and in both situations the Christian was questioned by an atheist, provided an exhaustive answer and then asked the atheist if he understood the response and the atheist essentially said he didn't really pay attention because it came from a Christian.  

Then why levy any challenges at all?  Why criticize?  Certainly it isn't because you're seeking answers.....you already came with those in your pocket whether they are right or wrong.  What I see is the classic atheist acting like Frankenstein stomping around arguments and muttering "GOD....BAAAAAD" over and over.  The Christian says "up" and the atheist says "down".  The Christian says "black" and the atheist says "white".   Even though both "up" and "black" were exhaustively explained and defended it makes no difference because you entered the "argument" relying completely on your presuppositions and subjectivity and you won't relinquish those no matter what.  It isn't a scientific search for truth or understanding....it's a game in which you focus only through the lense of the worldview and repeatedly lay out cliche coffee house objections over and over and over with the unchanging, unyielding backing of "GOD.............BAAAAAAD!!!"  It's silly, but I'm helpless to do anything about it.

So with that....MOS out!!!

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 31, 2019, 12:04:51 PM
Dude, you care nothing about the response I gave.  I watched a couple of Hitchens debates yesterday and some street preaching vids and in both situations the Christian was questioned by an atheist, provided an exhaustive answer and then asked the atheist if he understood the response and the atheist essentially said he didn't really pay attention because it came from a Christian.  

Then why levy any challenges at all?  Why criticize?  Certainly it isn't because you're seeking answers.....you already came with those in your pocket whether they are right or wrong.  What I see is the classic atheist acting like Frankenstein stomping around arguments and muttering "GOD....BAAAAAD" over and over.  The Christian says "up" and the atheist says "down".  The Christian says "black" and the atheist says "white".   Even though both "up" and "black" were exhaustively explained and defended it makes no difference because you entered the "argument" relying completely on your presuppositions and subjectivity and you won't relinquish those no matter what.  It isn't a scientific search for truth or understanding....it's a game in which you focus only through the lense of the worldview and repeatedly lay out cliche coffee house objections over and over and over with the unchanging, unyielding backing of "GOD.............BAAAAAAD!!!"  It's silly, but I'm helpless to do anything about it.

So with that....MOS out!!!




It has nothing to do with not reading or understanding your response, it is because your response does nothing to quell the problem, and typically adds to it when you add other nonsensical biblical scripture. In 2019 a rational person can easily read the rules of Exodus and clearly see they were originating from men of that time and not a god that would not only accept his creations as being owned by others, but beaten to the point of needed days to recover "because they are your property". I do understand the challenge you face explaining why a god would think it best a raped girl marry her rapist after the rapist paid 50 shekels to the father. But that's the corner you painted yourself in when you claimed the bible is true.  


Ag out!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 31, 2019, 04:08:28 PM
Dumb decision. 

NBC Edits Out Alex Trebek Crediting Prayers With Helping His Cancer Battle
By Nicholas Fondacaro | May 29, 2019
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/nicholas-fondacaro/2019/05/29/nbc-edits-out-alex-trebek-crediting-prayers-helping-his
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 31, 2019, 04:18:37 PM
Dumb decision. 

NBC Edits Out Alex Trebek Crediting Prayers With Helping His Cancer Battle
By Nicholas Fondacaro | May 29, 2019
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/nicholas-fondacaro/2019/05/29/nbc-edits-out-alex-trebek-crediting-prayers-helping-his
Well, it is NBC.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 31, 2019, 07:25:48 PM
Dumb decision.  

NBC Edits Out Alex Trebek Crediting Prayers With Helping His Cancer Battle
By Nicholas Fondacaro | May 29, 2019
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/nicholas-fondacaro/2019/05/29/nbc-edits-out-alex-trebek-crediting-prayers-helping-his

I agree. If he said it, it should be in there. Whether they did or not is for another discussion, but if he credited them, don't edit it out. Unless the interview ran 3 hours and it was a 15 min segment and no ulterior motive was intended.. then... non issue
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 31, 2019, 08:11:04 PM
On the same note, I have a good friend, life long atheist... was on his deathbed from cancer... people were always asking him to believe in god, he refused saying the evidence just wasn't there. He got in on a trial about 5 years ago and the medicine worked.. He has made a "miraculous recovery" that stuns the medical staff..but remains an atheist.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on June 01, 2019, 08:35:11 PM
'Sexually violent' ex-priest pleads guilty to assaulting boy in St. Louis County

A former priest in the St. Louis area and known sexual predator with multiple offenses in three states admitted Wednesday to abusing a boy in the 1990s while he was a chaplain at DePaul Health Center.

Frederick Lenczycki, 74, pleaded guilty in St. Louis County Circuit Court to two charges of sodomy.

He was charged in February with repeatedly grabbing a boy's genitals and trying to force a second boy to expose himself between January 1991 and December 1994. The abuse, according to charging documents, happened in the same block as the DePaul Health Center, where Lenczycki was a chaplain.

Lenczycki, who now lives in suburban Chicago under court supervision, has admitted to abusing up to 30 boys in Illinois, Missouri and California over 25 years, according to church and court files.

He continued to act as a priest until 2002 despite allegations of abuse brought to the attention of church officials, who moved him from Illinois to Missouri and then California, according to advocates with the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP).

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/sexually-violent-ex-priest-pleads-guilty-to-assaulting-boy-in/article_e492747a-c46f-518b-a5bd-a4f56793e758.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 01, 2019, 09:47:28 PM
'Sexually violent' ex-priest pleads guilty to assaulting boy in St. Louis County

A former priest in the St. Louis area and known sexual predator with multiple offenses in three states admitted Wednesday to abusing a boy in the 1990s while he was a chaplain at DePaul Health Center.

Frederick Lenczycki, 74, pleaded guilty in St. Louis County Circuit Court to two charges of sodomy.

He was charged in February with repeatedly grabbing a boy's genitals and trying to force a second boy to expose himself between January 1991 and December 1994. The abuse, according to charging documents, happened in the same block as the DePaul Health Center, where Lenczycki was a chaplain.

Lenczycki, who now lives in suburban Chicago under court supervision, has admitted to abusing up to 30 boys in Illinois, Missouri and California over 25 years, according to church and court files.

He continued to act as a priest until 2002 despite allegations of abuse brought to the attention of church officials, who moved him from Illinois to Missouri and then California, according to advocates with the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP).

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/sexually-violent-ex-priest-pleads-guilty-to-assaulting-boy-in/article_e492747a-c46f-518b-a5bd-a4f56793e758.html

Obviously he just needs more God in his life
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 02, 2019, 03:18:09 AM
'Sexually violent' ex-priest pleads guilty to assaulting boy in St. Louis County

A former priest in the St. Louis area and known sexual predator with multiple offenses in three states admitted Wednesday to abusing a boy in the 1990s while he was a chaplain at DePaul Health Center.

Frederick Lenczycki, 74, pleaded guilty in St. Louis County Circuit Court to two charges of sodomy.

He was charged in February with repeatedly grabbing a boy's genitals and trying to force a second boy to expose himself between January 1991 and December 1994. The abuse, according to charging documents, happened in the same block as the DePaul Health Center, where Lenczycki was a chaplain.

Lenczycki, who now lives in suburban Chicago under court supervision, has admitted to abusing up to 30 boys in Illinois, Missouri and California over 25 years, according to church and court files.

He continued to act as a priest until 2002 despite allegations of abuse brought to the attention of church officials, who moved him from Illinois to Missouri and then California, according to advocates with the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP).

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/sexually-violent-ex-priest-pleads-guilty-to-assaulting-boy-in/article_e492747a-c46f-518b-a5bd-a4f56793e758.html
So a priest sexually abusing boys means God's not real. ::)  That's some real deep thinking there.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on June 02, 2019, 09:12:27 AM
So a priest sexually abusing boys means God's not real. ::)  That's some real deep thinking there.

 ???
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 02, 2019, 04:26:48 PM
So a priest sexually abusing boys means God's not real. ::)  That's some real deep thinking there.

It adds to the contradiction Christians portray.

1st, Bill the deacon will tell you that God loves you, he knows how many hairs are on your head. He will go to great lengths to tell you all the great things god has done. He will tell you about prayer and encourage you to pray for this, and pray for that. He will qoute scripture that says if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains, ask and ye shall receive etc etc.  Bill and his flock will pray for Becky to get that job promotion, and for brother Ben to recover from that flu that's going around.."Thank you Jesus, thank you for the healing Ben is about to receive"   God is good all the time, thank god Ben got better....

Then when approached about childrens hospitals full of young cancer patients, many not living past 5 years old or asked about the child that was raped repeatedly by the priest for years and god did nothing, you hear "God is not the god of this world child...Satan has reign over it. Or God doesn't interfere in free will and the Priest had free will to rape that child. Or "It was gods will that Ben succumbed to the flu, but now he is in a better place. God has a plan you know..

The fact children are dying painful deaths from all manner of illnesses, and are being raped by representatives of god doesn't necessarily mean a god doesn't exist, but it certainly indicates to any rational person the Christian biblical god doesn't.  
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 03, 2019, 03:02:03 AM
It adds to the contradiction Christians portray.

1st, Bill the deacon will tell you that God loves you, he knows how many hairs are on your head. He will go to great lengths to tell you all the great things god has done. He will tell you about prayer and encourage you to pray for this, and pray for that. He will qoute scripture that says if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains, ask and ye shall receive etc etc.  Bill and his flock will pray for Becky to get that job promotion, and for brother Ben to recover from that flu that's going around.."Thank you Jesus, thank you for the healing Ben is about to receive"   God is good all the time, thank god Ben got better....

Then when approached about childrens hospitals full of young cancer patients, many not living past 5 years old or asked about the child that was raped repeatedly by the priest for years and god did nothing, you hear "God is not the god of this world child...Satan has reign over it. Or God doesn't interfere in free will and the Priest had free will to rape that child. Or "It was gods will that Ben succumbed to the flu, but now he is in a better place. God has a plan you know..

The fact children are dying painful deaths from all manner of illnesses, and are being raped by representatives of god doesn't necessarily mean a god doesn't exist, but it certainly indicates to any rational person the Christian biblical god doesn't.  
A person sinning proves God doesn't exist.  O.k..... gotcha.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 03, 2019, 01:20:54 PM
'Because We Need God's Help': Why Franklin Graham Asked Christians to Pray for President Trump
06-02-2019
Jenna Browder, Steve Warren

WASHINGTON – Franklin Graham called on Christians nationwide to pray for President Trump Sunday. The evangelist told CBN’s Faith Nation it’s not a political endorsement, but simply an opportunity to heed the Bible’s instruction and pray for the nation’s elected leader.   

“This is not a political endorsement,” Graham said. “It’s just simply praying for the President. The Bible instructs us to pray for those who are in authority.”

Graham also dismissed critics who accuse him of weaponizing prayer, saying “prayer is a weapon.”

Franklin Graham Asks Christians Nationwide to Pray for President Trump June 2
“We can go straight to the throne of grace,” he explained. “God hears prayer and answers prayer.”

Graham said "no president has been attacked" more than Trump and that "the only hope for him, and this nation is God."

"He's our President and if he succeeds we all benefit but if his enemies are allowed to destroy him and pull down the presidency it will hurt our entire nation," the evangelist said.

Graham posted a "thank-you" to everyone that prayed on Sunday, with this video:

Graham's Prayer

In a short four-minute video posted to his Facebook page Sunday, Graham thanked his followers for joining him to pray for President Donald J. Trump. He also explained how the Lord laid the idea on his heart and quoted the scripture from Psalm 9:9-10 which reads: “The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. And those who know Your name will put their trust in You; for You, Lord, have not forsaken those who seek You."

"This isn't politics. This isn't an endorsement. It's praying for our commander-in-chief," Graham explains in the video. "He is the President of the United States and he needs our prayers. And God instructs us to do that." 

The evangelist then invited viewers to pray with him and then pray their own prayer "because we need God's help."

"Our Heavenly Father, You tell us in your word, the scripture, the Bible that we're to pray for those in authority. And that's why we're coming to you today," Graham prayed. "We ask for your favor on the President of the United States Donald J. Trump."

"Father, we would ask that you lead and guide the President as he makes decisions that affect not only all Americans but freedom loving people around the world," he continued. "Father, we just ask that you give him wisdom. Wisdom from you. Wisdom to deal with the problems we have at the border.  Wisdom to deal with the trading issues, trading partners, other nations. Wisdom as he meets with world leaders."

"This weekend he goes to London to meet with Her Majesty the Queen, Theresa May, their prime minister and the leadership of that nation, our closest ally," Graham said. "We ask that you guide each and every step that he takes."

"Father, we would also ask that you protect him from his enemies. Give him health and give him strength," he implored. "Today, I pray for the President's family, especially his wife Melania and his son Barron."

"Father, we're all flawed human beings. We're guilty of sin. We've all failed. We thank you that you sent your son Jesus Christ from heaven to this earth to take our sins upon the cross," Graham continued. "That he died and shed his blood for each and every one of us and that you raised him to life. And Father, we know that you will come into each and every heart who's willing to turn from their sins and put their faith and trust in your son Jesus Christ.  So we thank you for that."

"And Father, we pray for our nation. And Father, we ask that you would heal the heart of this country and that people would look to you for guidance and direction each and every day," he prayed. "And Father, we pray this in the name of your son Jesus Christ. May your will be done. Amen."

After concluding his prayer, Graham thanks the user for joining him and reminds everyone to continue to pray for the President and for those in authority -- all of them.

"They need our prayers. Only God can change the human heart," Graham said. "You can pass all the legislation. You can pass all the laws that you want, but only God can change the human heart. Our hearts need God in this country. And my prayer for the President today is that God would guide him and direct him -- but may He direct our country and may His will be done."

Kevin Jessip, chairman of the grassroots movement "Save The Persecuted Christians," is one of the 250 leaders who signed the proclamation asking all Christians to pray.

"I was really obliged & thankful for Franklin's stepping out on this issue so we joined," he told CBN News.

"I believe that the Word of God will be lifted up in this nation and that's what we need," he added. "We need the national dialogue to include the word of God."

250 Christian leaders signed the statement of faith before June 2, which reads: 

"We the undersigned are calling for June 2 to be a special Day of Prayer for the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, that God would protect, strengthen, embolden, and direct him.

"We believe our nation is at a crossroads, at a dangerous precipice. The only one who can fix our country's problems is God Himself, and we pray that God will bless our president and our nation for His glory."

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/2019/may/franklin-graham-calls-for-national-day-of-prayer-for-president-trump-nbsp-ldquo-prayer-is-a-weapon-rdquo
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 03, 2019, 09:03:44 PM
A person sinning proves God doesn't exist.  O.k..... gotcha.

If that's what you took from that, I obviously overestimated you,and wasted my time and at least an hour for you formulating that response...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 04, 2019, 02:33:59 AM
If that's what you took from that, I obviously overestimated you,and wasted my time and at least an hour for you formulating that response...
There are over 1 billion Christians on planet Earth, of course you can find bad people in that group.  How does that mean Christianity itself is bad?  Do you think Christianity caused those bad actions?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 04, 2019, 12:49:14 PM
There are over 1 billion Christians on planet Earth, of course you can find bad people in that group.  How does that mean Christianity itself is bad?  Do you think Christianity caused those bad actions?

Re read my post, I think you missed the point entirely. It had nothing to do with one bad anything. After that, I will be happy to further explain it if you still aren't clear
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 10, 2019, 11:07:25 AM
Harvard Study Reveals Religious Upbringing Better for Kids’ Health, Well-Being
By TRISTAN JUSTICE
Published on October 11, 2018

A recent Harvard study reveals that children who had a religious upbringing are likely to be healthier and have a higher degree of well-being in early adulthood than those who did not.

The study, conducted by the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and released last month, shows a link between a religious upbringing and better physical and mental health in young adults.

Researchers found that people who attended religious services weekly or who practiced prayer or meditation daily in their youth reported having a higher life satisfaction and positivity in their 20s.

Individuals were found less likely to smoke, have symptoms of depression, use illicit drugs, or have sexually transmitted infections than people who engaged in less regular spiritual practices.

“These findings are important for both our understanding of health and our understanding of parenting practices,” said first author Ying Chen in a university press release. “Many children are raised religiously, and our study shows that this can powerfully affect their health behaviors, mental health, and overall happiness and well-being.”

The researchers followed 5,000 young people for between eight to 14 years, controlling for variables such as maternal health, socioeconomic status, and histories of substance abuse or symptoms of depression.

Results show that those who went to religious services at least once a week as children were about 18 percent more likely to report higher levels of happiness as young adults between the ages of 23 and 30 than those who didn’t. They were also shown to be 29 percent more likely to volunteer in their local communities and 33 percent less likely to engage in the use of illicit drugs.

Those who prayed or meditated at least once a day in their youth were shown to be 16 percent more likely to report higher levels of happiness as young adults and were 30 percent less likely to have become sexually active in their adolescence. These individuals were also 40 percent less likely to have contracted a sexually transmitted infection than those who never prayed or meditated.

Emilie Kao, the director of the DeVos Center for Religion and Civil Society at The Heritage Foundation, said she was not surprised by the researchers’ findings, noting that the Harvard study joins a long list of studies showing a positive link between religion and well-being.

“I think they’re consistent with other research that we’ve seen that shows religious beliefs give people spiritual strengths that lead to healthy habits and build their social networks and gives them the ability to overcome obstacles in their lives,” Kao said.

Help us champion truth, freedom, limited government and human dignity. Support The Stream »

Though the positive effects of growing up in a religious household is clear, religiosity in America is declining, particularly among millennials.

Gallup data shows that the number of Americans regarding religion to be “very important” in their lives is at a 24-year low, at 51 percent.

In addition, data from the Pew Research Center shows religiosity among Americans consistently declining for the past five generations, with 36 percent of millennials born between 1990 and 1996 unaffiliated with any religion.

By contrast, only 11 percent of those in the “Silent Generation,” born between 1928 and 1945, according to Pew, were unaffiliated with a religion.

Jon Cadle, a senior from Minnesota at George Washington University, said he thinks the decline is because young people today are too distracted, and he blames technology as the source of the problem.

“Where once it was a family activity every Sunday, now it’s about football and ‘Fortnite,’” Cadle said, referring to a popular online video game for children and teenagers that parents even started hiring tutors for their kids to play. “There’s so many more distractions in our culture today than in past generations.”

Hunter Wilson, another student at George Washington University, agrees that the decline in the importance of religion among young people is a result of changing values between generations.

“With the combination of religion not being taught as much in the home, in addition to its declining presence in the public square, it’s easy to understand how religion is declining in importance among my peers,” said Wilson, who hails from Michigan.

Kao warned this decline in religiosity among Americans could drive up the unhealthy behaviors that religious upbringings are shown to reduce, such as drug and alcohol addiction and depression.

“Whether it’s drugs or suicide, it’s the strong personal connections and social networks that insulate against addictions and unhealthy behaviors and suicide,” she said.

Kao said there is a lesson for policymakers to be learned from studies showing the positive influences that growing up with a religious upbringing can have.

“What policymakers need to do is allow religious institutions to operate in the public square without trying to force them to change their beliefs,” she said. “I think there’s a movement to push religious organizations out of the public square because people don’t share their values or think their values are too traditional.”

The Harvard study, “Associations of Religious Upbringing With Subsequent Health and Well-Being From Adolescence to Young Adulthood: An Outcome-Wide Analysis,” was published in the American Journal of Epidemiology.

https://stream.org/new-study-reveals-religious-upbringing-better-kids-health-well/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on June 10, 2019, 06:19:50 PM
As San Francisco District Attorney, Kamala Harris's office stopped cooperating with victims of Catholic Church child abuse

Kamala Harris, surrounded by thousands of cheering supporters, kicked off her presidential campaign in Oakland earlier this year, declaring that she has always fought “on behalf of survivors of sexual assault, a fight not just against predators but a fight against silence and stigma.”

Fighting on behalf of victims of sexual abuse, particularly children, has been central to Harris’s political identity for the better part of three decades. Harris specialized in prosecuting sex crimes and child exploitation as a young prosecutor just out of law school. She later touted her record on child sexual abuse cases and prosecuting pedophiles in television advertisements, splashy profiles, and on the trail as she campaigned for public office.

But when it came to taking on the Catholic Church, survivors of clergy sexual abuse say that Harris turned a blind eye, refusing to take action against clergy members accused of sexually abusing children when it meant confronting one of the city’s most powerful political institutions. Just six months before Harris took office, a U.S. Supreme Court decision overturned a California law that had retroactively eliminated the statute of limitations for criminal prosecution of child molestation cases. That shifted the focus to holding predators among the clergy accountable through civil cases and through a broader effort to bring attention to predators who had been shielded by the church.

Hallinan, the radical district attorney who Harris ousted in a contentious election campaign, believed that the clergy abuse files were a matter of public record; Harris refused to release them to the public.

In her seven years as district attorney, Harris’s office did not proactively assist in civil cases against clergy sex abuse and ignored requests by activists and survivors to access the cache of investigative files that could have helped them secure justice, according to several victims of clergy sex abuse living in California who spoke to The Intercept.

https://theintercept.com/2019/06/09/kamala-harris-san-francisco-catholic-church-child-abuse/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 20, 2019, 10:06:39 AM
Supreme Court: Cross Can Stand On Public Land In Separation Of Church And State Case
June 20, 2019
Nina Totenberg
Domenico Montanaro

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2019/06/16/harlan_npr_scotus_cross-35_custom-e7cdc4358c640f3b9167b7362d7150daec2233b0-s1600-c85.jpg)
A World War I memorial cross sits in Bladensburg, Md., just outside Washington, D.C. The federal government asked the Supreme Court to rule in favor of the cross.
Becky Harlan/NPR

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Thursday that a 40-foot World War I memorial cross can stay on public land at a Maryland intersection.

The cross "has become a prominent community landmark, and its removal or radical alteration at this date would be seen by many not as a neutral act but as the manifestation of a hostility toward religion that has no place in our Establishment Clause traditions," the court wrote. Justice Alito wrote the majority opinion for the court.

"And contrary to respondents' intimations, there is no evidence of discriminatory intent in the selection of the design of the memorial or the decision of a Maryland commission to maintain it. The Religion Clause of the Constitution aim to foster a society in which people of all beliefs can live together harmoniously, and the presence of the Bladensburg Cross on the land where it has stood for so many years is fully consistent with that aim."

The decision was 7-to-2, but had multiple parts and not all of the seven agreeing on every aspect. The decision reverses a lower-court ruling that said the memorial is unconstitutional because it is on public land and maintained at taxpayer expense. The high court's ruling is a major victory for religious groups and the American Legion, which warned that if this cross had to be moved, so too would other crosses that serve as war memorials.

Alito argued that the cross had essentially become secular. He invoked the history of World War I memorials noting the rows and rows of crosses and stars of David at cemeteries that memorialized those who died in that war and that established in people's minds, in his view, that that was a way to honor to dead.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, in dissent, disagreed with Alito's history. She noted that it's clear what the purpose and meaning of the cross was from the start — it was religious. She argued Americans knew what it meant then and know what it means now.

"Decades ago," Ginsburg wrote, "this Court recognized that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution demands governmental neutrality among religious faiths, and between religion and nonreligion. ... Numerous times since, the Court has reaffirmed the Constitution's commitment to neutrality. Today the Court erodes that neutrality commitment, diminishing precedent designed to preserve individual liberty and civic harmony in favor of a 'presumption of constitutionality for longstanding monuments, symbols, and practices.'"

She adds, "The Latin cross is the foremost symbol of the Christian faith, embodying the 'central theological claim of Christianity: that the son of God died on the cross, that he rose from the dead, and that his death and resurrection offer the possibility of eternal life.' ... Precisely because the cross symbolizes these sectarian beliefs, it is a common marker for the graves of Christian soldiers. For the same reason, using the cross as a war memorial does not transform it into a secular symbol, as the Courts of Appeals have uniformly recognized."

The decision could have sweeping implications in terms of symbols, like crosses and the 10 Commandments that are already constructed. Those that are already there, likely will be able to stay; it's a question of removal, not putting them up. It could still be contested, however, if someone wanted to construct something new, because the purpose would be better known than something historic.

The concrete cross at the center of the court's decision is located in the middle of a busy median strip and directly across the street from a large pawnshop in Bladensburg, Md.

It was erected nearly 100 years ago when bereaved mothers in Bladensburg decided to build a World War I memorial to honor their fallen sons. When they ran out of money, the American Legion took over the project. But by the 1930s, a local parks commission had taken over the memorial and the responsibility for its maintenance.

Today, the cross is more grungy than grand. The concrete is crumbling; a canvas tarp covers the top, and without the $100,000 that the parks commission has budgeted for repair, the monument looks like it may not be long for this world.

The American Humanist Association challenged the placement of the cross, contending that "there is no meaning to the Latin cross, other than Christianity." A federal appeals court agreed, declaring that its placement violated the Constitution's ban on establishment of religion. The appeals court ruled that the cross should be moved to a private location and funded without taxpayer money.

Now the Supreme Court has reversed that ruling.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/20/731824045/supreme-court-cross-can-stand-on-public-land-in-separation-of-church-and-state-c
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 20, 2019, 10:10:42 AM
Of course Ginsberg and Sotomayor were the two who opposed.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 20, 2019, 04:12:32 PM
Of course Ginsberg and Sotomayor were the two who opposed.

Surprised Breyer and Kagan got it right. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 20, 2019, 04:12:47 PM
Justices reject challenge to 'In God We Trust' on U.S. money
By Alex Swoyer - The Washington Times - Monday, June 10, 2019

The Supreme Court rejected a case Monday brought by an atheist who wanted to scrub “In God We Trust,” the U.S. motto, from the nation’s currency, claiming it was an entanglement of state and religion.

Michael Newdow, an activist who previous challenged reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in schools, had set his sights on money, but lost at the district, circuit and now Supreme Court levels.

On behalf of a group of atheists, Mr. Newdow argued America’s money lacked an reference to God until 1864, when it was added in. He said that amounted to an endorsement of religion.

“By mandating the inscription of facially religious text … on every coin and currency bill, defendants have turned petitioners — among whom are nine children — into ‘political outsiders’ on the basis of their most fundamental religious tenet,” he argued in his petition to the Supreme Court.

The justices rejected his petition without comment.

The 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in its ruling last August against Mr. Newdow said the Establishment Clause of the Constitution doesn’t force the government to purge itself from all religious reflection.

“Precluding general references to God would do exactly that,” the federal appeals court ruled.

Mr. Newdow lost a similar challenge in 2014 when the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against a previous effort to strip the motto from currency. Four other appeals courts, dealing with the issue before, also have upheld the motto’s place on American money.

The activist has also launched a series of other legal challenges, attempting to separate religion from the public sphere. Some of his well known battles include trying to halt the Pledge of Allegiance from being said in public school due to the phrase “under God,” and also trying to stop prayers and religious references at the inaugurations of Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama.

Becket Religious Liberty for All, a religious liberty focused law firm, said the high court made the right move by dismissing Mr. Newdow’s challenge Monday.

“The result is the right one, but the multiyear process is a grand waste of time and money,” said Eric Rassbach, an attorney for Becket.

He said it’s time for the Supreme Court to revisit the “Lemon test,” a framework the Supreme Court laid out in a 1971 case for reviewing when a government’s action crosses the line into unconstitutional religious entanglement. Under the Lemon test, an action must have a secular purpose, must not advance or inhibit a religion, and must avoid “excessive government entanglement with religion.”

Mr. Rassbach said the Lemon test invites cases like Mr. Newdow‘s.

The Supreme Court has a chance to retire the Lemon test in another case this term involving a nearly 100-year-old war memorial cross in Bladensburg, Maryland. The Peace Cross, which stands on public land, is dedicated to local soldiers who died in World War I.

Justice Neil M. Gorsuch, during oral argument in that case, suggested Lemon’s usefulness was at an end.

“It’s been a long time since this court has applied Lemon,” Justice Gorsuch said. “Is it time for this court to thank Lemon for its services and send it on its way?”

A decision in the Peace Cross case is expected by the end of the month.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jun/10/supreme-court-rejects-challenge-god-we-trust-us-mo/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 21, 2019, 03:14:04 AM
Surprised Breyer and Kagan got it right. 
I've actually been surprised with Kagan on several past rulings.  She's probably the least liberal of the four liberals.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on June 23, 2019, 03:41:34 PM
Alabama gov. signs law allowing Briarwood Presbyterian Church to have own police force

After several years of seeking to establish a private police force to adequately protect its church and school campuses, Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey has signed legislation allowing the Briarwood Presbyterian Church to do just that despite objections from critics.

The Associated Press reported Wednesday that Ivey approved the legislation some two week ago.

In a statement on the approval, Briarwood said that despite having a great relationship with local law enforcement agencies, establishing a private police force had become necessary because the state was unable to provide adequate security for the approximately 2,000 students and faculty of Briarwood Christian School located on two campuses in unincorporated Jefferson and Shelby County due to budget cuts.

Randall Marshall, the executive director of the ACLU of Alabama, told the AP that the law could allow the church to cover-up criminal activity that occurs on its campuses and expects it to be challenged in courts for unconstitutionally granting government power to a religious institution.

Matthew Moore, Briarwood's church administrator, told ABC 33/40 that they won’t be hiring their own officers immediately. He added that police officers in the agency they establish will be answerable only to the church.

“Line officers will report to supervisors and supervisors will report to the director of safety and security/chief of police,” Moore said. “The director/chief reports to the administrator/chief operating officer/dean/college president, who is then responsible for reporting to the governing body, ie: board of trustees, board of education or ruling elders.”

https://www.christianpost.com/news/alabama-gov-signs-law-allowing-briarwood-presbyterian-church-have-own-police-force.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 24, 2019, 08:12:31 PM
Alabama gov. signs law allowing Briarwood Presbyterian Church to have own police force

After several years of seeking to establish a private police force to adequately protect its church and school campuses, Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey has signed legislation allowing the Briarwood Presbyterian Church to do just that despite objections from critics.

The Associated Press reported Wednesday that Ivey approved the legislation some two week ago.

In a statement on the approval, Briarwood said that despite having a great relationship with local law enforcement agencies, establishing a private police force had become necessary because the state was unable to provide adequate security for the approximately 2,000 students and faculty of Briarwood Christian School located on two campuses in unincorporated Jefferson and Shelby County due to budget cuts.

Randall Marshall, the executive director of the ACLU of Alabama, told the AP that the law could allow the church to cover-up criminal activity that occurs on its campuses and expects it to be challenged in courts for unconstitutionally granting government power to a religious institution.

Matthew Moore, Briarwood's church administrator, told ABC 33/40 that they won’t be hiring their own officers immediately. He added that police officers in the agency they establish will be answerable only to the church.

“Line officers will report to supervisors and supervisors will report to the director of safety and security/chief of police,” Moore said. “The director/chief reports to the administrator/chief operating officer/dean/college president, who is then responsible for reporting to the governing body, ie: board of trustees, board of education or ruling elders.”

https://www.christianpost.com/news/alabama-gov-signs-law-allowing-briarwood-presbyterian-church-have-own-police-force.html

Thats not accurate. They will also be accountable to state law governing policing. This is not much different than the University of Texas or Texas State or any number of universities across the country having their own jurisdiction and police force.  Not a big deal in my opinion
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on June 27, 2019, 04:36:52 PM
Too bad this serial child molester was not discovered and punished earlier. How many others like him in this cult?

Admitted pedophile, former Savannah priest dies in prison

Instead of guiding children in their faith, a Savannah priest sexually abused them.

Now, the man behind those crimes is dead. Wayland Brown died in a South Carolina prison on June 8.

Officials with the Department of Corrections call his death “expected” and said there was “no foul play” involved.

Brown admitted back in October of 2018 to sexually abusing two boys — Alan Ranta and Chris Templeton — back in the early 1980s when he was a priest in the Savannah Diocese and at St. James School.

He was brought to South Carolina early that year to face criminal charges. Because of the laws in Georgia, he could not be criminally prosecuted there.

But by bringing the boys across state lines, to various areas of Hardeeville where he molested them, prosecutors were able to file charges against him.

Brown pleaded guilty in a Beaufort County courtroom and was sentenced to 20 years behind bars. He only served a little more than 8 months.

Brown had worn his priest's collar while abusing the boys, Solicitor Duffy Stone said, and prayed the rosary with them afterward.

https://www.wsav.com/news/admitted-pedophile-savannah-priest-dies-in-prison/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 27, 2019, 09:17:18 PM
Too bad this serial child molester was not discovered and punished earlier. How many others like him in this cult?

Admitted pedophile, former Savannah priest dies in prison

Instead of guiding children in their faith, a Savannah priest sexually abused them.

Now, the man behind those crimes is dead. Wayland Brown died in a South Carolina prison on June 8.

Officials with the Department of Corrections call his death “expected” and said there was “no foul play” involved.

Brown admitted back in October of 2018 to sexually abusing two boys — Alan Ranta and Chris Templeton — back in the early 1980s when he was a priest in the Savannah Diocese and at St. James School.

He was brought to South Carolina early that year to face criminal charges. Because of the laws in Georgia, he could not be criminally prosecuted there.

But by bringing the boys across state lines, to various areas of Hardeeville where he molested them, prosecutors were able to file charges against him.

Brown pleaded guilty in a Beaufort County courtroom and was sentenced to 20 years behind bars. He only served a little more than 8 months.

Brown had worn his priest's collar while abusing the boys, Solicitor Duffy Stone said, and prayed the rosary with them afterward.

https://www.wsav.com/news/admitted-pedophile-savannah-priest-dies-in-prison/

This is one area you and I are in agreement on. But it's not just the church. It's little league, scouts, Olympic physicians  etc. It is any position where adults interact with children on a regular basis that needs to be watched. This includes Millionaire businessmen that sponsor Teen America pageants and barge into teenage dressing rooms "because they can".
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on June 27, 2019, 10:46:26 PM
This is one area you and I are in agreement on. But it's not just the church. It's little league, scouts, Olympic physicians  etc. It is any position where adults interact with children on a regular basis that needs to be watched. This includes Millionaire businessmen that sponsor Teen America pageants and barge into teenage dressing rooms "because they can".

I think you've crossed the line.  LOL.

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 27, 2019, 11:59:47 PM
I think you've crossed the line.  LOL.



wait..  what?  I thought we were in the trust tree in the nest, were we not?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on June 28, 2019, 02:03:04 AM
wait..  what?  I thought we were in the trust tree in the nest, were we not?

LOL @ the Frank the Tank quote.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on July 09, 2019, 03:25:42 PM
Former pastor Haynes sentenced to life in prison

A former Toledo pastor said the 27 months he’s spent away from his children during a pending child sex-trafficking case was already comparable to a life prison sentence.

Anthony Haynes, 40, the former leader of Greater Life Christian Center, told visiting U.S. District Court Judge Bernard Friedman Thursday that he doesn’t deserve life in prison for grooming a then 14-year-old girl to have sex with him and then-pastors Cordell Jenkins and Kenneth Butler.

“I don’t deserve life. I don’t deserve life,” Haynes said during a sermon-like speech. “Like I said, I’ve been doing life for 27 months while I’ve been away from my children and this hurts ... my need today is for you to have mercy on Anthony Haynes.”

While Judge Friedman said he felt sympathy for Haynes’ five children, they were not the ones who committed the crimes. The judge said he didn’t even think such a case would exist because of the “disgusting, horrible” things that occurred. Additionally, Haynes displayed a lack of remorse, Judge Friedman said.

It started when the teenage girl moved in with the Haynes family in 2014 after her mother could no longer provide adequate care for her, investigators said.  Haynes then facilitated the victim to have sex with Jenkins, the leader of Abundant Life Ministries, and Butler, a Detroit-area pastor. They each previously pleaded guilty and have been sentenced — Jenkins to life in prison, Butler to 17½ years.

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/courts/2019/06/27/former-toledo-pastor-anthony-haynes-sentenced-to-life-in-prison/stories/20190627138
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on July 09, 2019, 09:35:20 PM
Former pastor Haynes sentenced to life in prison

A former Toledo pastor said the 27 months he’s spent away from his children during a pending child sex-trafficking case was already comparable to a life prison sentence.

Anthony Haynes, 40, the former leader of Greater Life Christian Center, told visiting U.S. District Court Judge Bernard Friedman Thursday that he doesn’t deserve life in prison for grooming a then 14-year-old girl to have sex with him and then-pastors Cordell Jenkins and Kenneth Butler.

“I don’t deserve life. I don’t deserve life,” Haynes said during a sermon-like speech. “Like I said, I’ve been doing life for 27 months while I’ve been away from my children and this hurts ... my need today is for you to have mercy on Anthony Haynes.”

While Judge Friedman said he felt sympathy for Haynes’ five children, they were not the ones who committed the crimes. The judge said he didn’t even think such a case would exist because of the “disgusting, horrible” things that occurred. Additionally, Haynes displayed a lack of remorse, Judge Friedman said.

It started when the teenage girl moved in with the Haynes family in 2014 after her mother could no longer provide adequate care for her, investigators said.  Haynes then facilitated the victim to have sex with Jenkins, the leader of Abundant Life Ministries, and Butler, a Detroit-area pastor. They each previously pleaded guilty and have been sentenced — Jenkins to life in prison, Butler to 17½ years.

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/courts/2019/06/27/former-toledo-pastor-anthony-haynes-sentenced-to-life-in-prison/stories/20190627138

What's your point in posting all this?  Does this show everybody that God is bad?  That God isn't real? That Jesus is poison?  That atheism has the moral high ground? Or does it demonstrate that some people are truly evil?  Even those that profess Christ but live in opposition of him.

Eh post whatever...it's just a game to entertain yourself.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 29, 2019, 02:35:12 PM
Former youth pastor jailed in segregation after conviction

A former Mid-South youth pastor was found guilty on all counts in the sex abuse of an under-aged boy.

It took a Tipton County jury only an hour and a half to deliberate.

On March 2018 Gorton was indicted for 47 different sex crimes:
5 counts of aggravated sexual battery
17 counts of sexual battery by an authority figure
2 counts of continuous sexual abuse of a child (Child Protection Act)
16 counts of statutory rape by an authority figure
2 counts of exploitation of a minor by electronic means
2 counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor
2 counts of purchasing alcohol for a child and
1 count of rape

He was charged in another 44-count indictment with similar accusations and two more victims in July 2018.

The former pastor was found guilty on more than 20 counts involving child sex abuse: exploitation of a minor, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, furnishing alcohol to minors, sexual battery by an authority figure, statutory rape and continual abuse of a child.

The abuse began the day the victim moved into Gorton's Drummonds home and, said the teenager, intensified over the next year and a half. He testified Gorton, who was then the pastor of The Awakening Church in Atoka, used the Bible to manipulate him into believing his inappropriate behavior was okay.

"I forget the verse, but he said holding each other is just a way to show love," he told the court. "He said it was normal."

https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2019/08/29/former-youth-pastor-jailed-segregation-after-conviction/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 29, 2019, 02:49:01 PM
Another meaningless "resolution" but politicians will do anything for a vote.

Democratic Party embraces nonreligious voters, criticizes 'religious liberty' in new resolution

The Democratic National Committee (DNC) passed a resolution Saturday praising the values of "religiously unaffiliated" Americans as the "largest religious group within the Democratic Party."

The resolution, which was unanimously passed at the DNC's summer meeting on Aug. 24 in San Francisco, Calif., was championed by the Secular Coalition of America, an organization that lobbies on behalf of atheists, agnostics, and humanists on public policy. The group celebrated the DNC's move as the first time a major party "embraced American nonbelievers."

"Religiously unaffiliated Americans overwhelmingly share the Democratic Party’s values," said the resolution, which adds they should advocate for "rational public policy based on sound science and universal humanistic values."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democratic-party-nonreligious-voters

https://secular.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/DNC-Resolution-on-the-Nonreligious-Demographic.pdf
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 29, 2019, 02:52:56 PM
Ninth Circuit Upholds Verdict Against Sect-Run Arizona Town

An Arizona town that let a Mormon sect run the government deprived non-church members of their constitutional rights, a Ninth Circuit panel held Monday, affirming a federal judge’s 2016 finding.

“We conclude that because of the overwhelming evidence that Colorado City deprived non-FLDS residents of their constitutional rights, it is more probable than not that the court would have reached the same verdict on the United States’ [Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act] claim,” wrote U.S. Circuit Judge Milan Smith Jr., in a 21-page opinion.

The U.S. government sued the towns of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale City, Utah, in 2012, for letting overseers of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS) appoint city leader and marshals.

Following a 44-day trial in 2016, U.S. District Judge H. Russel Holland, a Ronald Reagan appointee, awarded a total of $2.2 million to apostates denied access to water utilities as well as a former city councilman wrongly arrested and charged with felony theft.

The FLDS was handpicking city marshals to “ignore violations of the law – such as underage marriage, unlicensed drug distributions, and food stamp fraud – by FLDS members,” Smith wrote in a summary of the trial.

Law enforcement on the town payroll helped church leaders duck the FBI, kept tabs on unfamiliar license plates that rolled through, hid church leader Warren Jeffs from the FBI for more than a year and destroyed evidence against him.

Moreover, the marshal’s office “selectively enforce[ed] the law based upon religion,” arresting several non-FLDS members without probable cause.

The church also employed its own security detail nicknamed the God Squad.

https://www.courthousenews.com/ninth-circuit-upholds-verdict-against-sect-run-arizona-town/

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/FLDS-9CA.pdf
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on August 30, 2019, 04:26:52 AM
Just imagine living in those towns as a non FLDS.  I stopped there at a diner to eat once while traveling and it was a really weird place.  People all over were staring at me and not just because of my good looks. ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on September 11, 2019, 12:34:04 AM
Church Leaders Indicted in Forced Labor Conspiracy

A dozen leaders of Imperial Valley Ministries, including the former pastor, are charged in an indictment unsealed today with subjecting dozens of mostly homeless people to forced labor, coercing them to surrender welfare benefits and compelling them to panhandle up to nine hours a day, six days a week, for the financial benefit of the church leaders.

The defendants were arrested today in El Centro, San Diego and Brownsville, Texas and charged with conspiracy, forced labor, document servitude and benefits fraud. The local defendants are scheduled to be arraigned in federal court in El Centro today at 1:30 p.m. before U.S. Magistrate Judge Ruth Bermudez Montenegro.

“The indictment alleges an appalling abuse of power by church officials who preyed on vulnerable homeless people with promises of a warm bed and meals,” said U.S. Attorney Robert Brewer. “These victims were held captive, stripped of their humble financial means, their identification, their freedom and their dignity.”

“Human trafficking robs victims of their most basic human rights,” said FBI Special Agent-In-Charge Scott Brunner.  “Victims of human trafficking are often unseen by society, left pleading in silence. Today, the FBI is proud to break up the labor trafficking alleged to have been committed by the leaders of Imperial Valley Ministries in Imperial Valley and San Diego. This investigation is an example of the tireless and dedicated work undertaken by FBI agents and our partners at the El Centro Police Department in combating this heinous crime.”

Imperial Valley Ministries, or IVM, operates a non-denominational church headquartered in El Centro, and has opened approximately 30 affiliate churches throughout the United States and Mexico, including locations in Los Angeles, Santa Ana and San Jose in California; in Las Vegas, Nevada; Phoenix, Arizona; and Brownsville, Texas. IVM’s stated purpose is to “restore” drug addicts at faith-based rehabilitation group homes and raise money to open churches in other cities to do the same.

In addition to the church and main office, IVM owned and operated three group homes the El Centro area, plus one in Calexico and one in Chula Vista. Many victims were recruited from outside of El Centro, including San Diego, and as far away as Texas. IVM leaders allegedly induced many to participate with offers of free food and shelter with the false promise that victims would be provided with resources to eventually return home.

According to the indictment, defendants checked in the victims at the IVM group homes, where they were required to sign agreements to adhere to rules. Many victims, including many who did not require drug rehabilitation services, claimed they were later held at IVM properties against their will.

The indictment alleges that church leaders locked victims inside group homes with deadbolt locks; confiscated identification documents such as driver’s licenses, passports, immigration papers and identification cards, in order to prevent victims from escaping; stole victims’ welfare benefits; and required adherence to rules such as, “you are not to discuss things of the world” and “the only thing to be read is the holy bible” and “if any of the rules are broken there will be discipline.”


Windows were nailed shut at some group home locations, leading a desperate 17-year-old victim to break a window, escape, and run to a neighboring property to call police. The teen was brought to the El Centro Medical Center for cuts sustained from the escape.

Defendants are alleged to have extorted the surrender of participants’ Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT) cards obtained through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), administered by the CalFresh Program, by using actual and threatened fear of economic loss. The IVM leaders allegedly then used the SNAP benefits for improper purposes, including providing them to ineligible persons, and improperly instructing the intended recipients to not seek or accept outside employment.

Leaders of IVM, including former Pastor Victor Gonzalez, refused to return the confiscated EBT cards and personal property to participants who asked to leave. IVM members also allegedly used various means to coerce participants to stay and continue panhandling for IVM’s financial benefit by saying their children would be taken away if they left, that they would not receive transportation home, or that loved ones had rejected them and they must stay because “only God” loved them. Punishments for violations of home rules, including talking about the outside world, allegedly included the withholding of food.

In another instance, church leaders allegedly refused to allow a diabetic victim to obtain medicine, medical supplies and even food in response to low blood sugar. She was able to escape and get help.

All of the identified victims are now free. Victim specialists have been on standby to provide immediate assistance to any additional victims we find in order to provide them with shelter, transportation or any necessary support services.

“This is the most significant labor trafficking prosecution in this district in many years,” Brewer said. “These cases are few and far between because many victims live in captivity and fear, powerless to report the crimes against them. My office wants victims to know that we are here to help you.”

Brewer praised the FBI and prosecutor Christopher Tenorio for their excellent work on the case. And he expressed appreciation for the assistance of the Imperial County District Attorney’s Office, the El Centro Police Department, the Imperial County Sheriff’s Office, the U.S. Marshals Service, the U.S. Border Patrol and Imperial County Social Services, for their assistance with this case.

To report suspicions of labor trafficking, please contact the FBI at 1-800-CALLFBI (225-5324) or https://tips.fbi.gov/. If you know someone who is a victim of human trafficking, resources can be found at National Human Trafficking Hotline – 1-888-373-7888.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Christopher Tenorio is prosecuting the case with assistance from the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division’s Human Trafficking Prosecution Unit.

SUMMARY OF CHARGES

Conspiracy – Title 18, U.S.C., Section 371
Maximum penalty: Five years in prison and $250,000 fine

Forced Labor – Title 18, U.S.C., Section 1589
Maximum penalty: Twenty years in prison and $250,000 fine

Document Servitude – Title 18, U.S.C., Section 1592
Maximum penalty: Twenty years in prison and $250,000 fine

Food Stamp Act (Benefits Fraud) – Title 7, U.S.C., Section 2024(b)
Maximum penalty: Twenty years in prison and $250,000 fine (If the benefits were $5,000 or more)

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdca/pr/church-leaders-indicted-forced-labor-conspiracy
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on September 11, 2019, 07:38:44 AM
Good movie material.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on September 19, 2019, 03:41:50 PM
A few decades too late as usual.

Catholic Priest Arthur Perrault receives 30 years for molesting altar boy

Former Albuquerque priest Arthur Perrault is expected to spend the rest of his life in prison for aggravated sexual assault of an altar boy in the early 1990s, after a riveting hearing Friday in which a federal judge imposed a 30-year sentence and insisted Perrault stand and face one of the multiple victims he abused decades ago.

“I have to say Mr. Perrault that this is the worst case that I have ever handled and ever seen,” said U.S. District Judge Martha Vázquez, noting that she has presided over many sexual abuse cases in her 26 years as a judge in Santa Fe.

In a rare federal criminal prosecution, Perrault was convicted by a jury in April of seven counts of sexual abuse related to a former altar boy at St. Bernadette’s parish in Albuquerque who once considered the priest his “best friend.”

Perrault, who admitted to at least one earlier molestation of a boy, fled Albuquerque in the fall of 1992 “knowing he would soon be outed as a serial pedophile,” according to a sentencing memorandum filed by the U.S. Attorney’s office. He was charged with the molestation of a single victim, with supporting trial testimony from six other men who said they too had been sexually abused by Perrault as children.

Perrault came to New Mexico from Connecticut in the 1960s to be treated at a religious center for sexual pedophiles and other troubled clergy. Prosecutors alleged he preyed upon and sexually assaulted dozens of minors for decades as a teacher and parish priest in the Albuquerque area and fled in 1992 as he was about to be “outed” for his crimes.


Trial testimony showed at least two clergy or church employees at St. Bernadette either helped Perrault leave or were in contact with him when he relocated to Morocco.

https://www.abqjournal.com/1365775/perrault-sentenced-to-30-years-for-molesting-altar-boy.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on October 04, 2019, 09:51:02 AM
Almost 1,700 priests and clergy accused of sex abuse are unsupervised

Nearly 1,700 priests and other clergy members that the Roman Catholic Church considers credibly accused of child sexual abuse are living under the radar with little to no oversight from religious authorities or law enforcement, decades after the first wave of the church abuse scandal roiled U.S. dioceses, an Associated Press investigation has found.

These priests, deacons, monks and lay people now teach middle-school math. They counsel survivors of sexual assault. They work as nurses and volunteer at nonprofits aimed at helping at-risk kids. They live next to playgrounds and daycare centers. They foster and care for children.

And in their time since leaving the church, dozens have committed crimes, including sexual assault and possessing child pornography, the AP’s analysis found.

A recent push by Roman Catholic dioceses across the U.S. to publish the names of those it considers to be credibly accused has opened a window into the daunting problem of how to monitor and track priests who often were never criminally charged and, in many cases, were removed from or left the church to live as private citizens.

In addition to the almost 1,700 that the AP was able to identify as largely unsupervised, there were 76 people who could not be located. The remaining clergy members were found to be under some kind of supervision, with some in prison or overseen by church programs.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/nearly-1-700-priests-clergy-accused-sex-abuse-are-unsupervised-n1062396
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 10, 2019, 05:57:20 PM
Brad Pitt no longer identifies as atheist, says he was just being ‘rebellious’
By Leonardo Blair, Christian Post Reporter| Monday, September 30, 2019

After years of publicly declaring himself an atheist, award-winning actor and film producer Brad Pitt says that he was just being “rebellious” when he kept telling the world he didn’t believe in God.

“Oh, man, I've gone through everything. Like, I cling to religion. I grew up with Christianity. Always questioned it, but it worked at times. And then when I got on my own, I completely left it and I called myself agnostic. Tried a few spiritual things but didn't feel right. Then I called myself an atheist for a while, just kind of being rebellious. I wasn't really. But I kinda labeled myself that for a while. It felt punk rock enough. And then I found myself coming back around to just belief in—I hate to use the word spirituality, but just a belief in that we're all connected,” Pitt, 55, said in an interview for the October issue of GQ.

In a 2009 interview with Bild, when asked if he believed in God, Pitt who was raised Southern Baptist, replied: “No, no, no!”

When pressed on whether his soul is spiritual, he said: “No, no, no! I’m probably 20 percent atheist and 80 percent agnostic. I don’t think anyone really knows. You’ll either find out or not when you get there, until then there’s no point thinking about it."

Two years later in 2011, the 55-year-old actor told Extra how stifled he felt by his religion.

"I got brought up being told things were God's way, and when things didn't work out it was called God's plan. I've got my issues with it. Don't get me started. I found it very stifling," he said.

It was that stifled feeling, he told The Hollywood Reporter, that led him to turn away from his Southern Baptist tradition.

"I grew up very religious, and I don't have a great relationship with religion," he said at the time. "I oscillate between agnosticism and atheism."

The discussion of Pitt’s faith comes as he promotes a new movie called “Ad Astra.” It’s a paranoid thriller in space that follows character Roy McBride, played by Pitt, “on a mission across an unforgiving solar system to uncover the truth about his missing father and his doomed expedition that now, 30 years later, threatens the universe.”

There is a reason why this teeth whitening pen is a best seller on Amazon. It is safe, gentle, convenient, painless, easy to use, and affordable for the family. 100% satisfaction guarantee or your money back! Click to learn more!

In the film, faith is presented as something that can often be a distraction from self.

“Yeah. Escape. A looking outward instead of looking inward. Looking beyond, not seeing what's right in front of you,” Pitt said, noting that “it's more comfortable.”

When GQ writer Zach Baron tried asking Pitt what he does to escape from himself, he explained that he is always aware of what’s happening in his life.

“No, I always — I'm aware when I'm doing something in an obsessive way. Like, my friend right now, he's just obsessed with watches, and he looks them up and studies them. And I know he's avoiding something in his … in his domain,” Pitt said.

“I'm very aware. I could feel that from an early age. I knew I was avoiding something. But then once you're aware of it, then what? I mean, the people I'm really drawn to, they just have no filter. They have no protection. They have no filter on their thoughts. They sometimes get in trouble because of that, but I adore them. I adore that they're just so open and raw about their feelings at any moment,” he said.

When asked if he appreciates candid people because his own life is so controlled, Pitt said, “Well, I think we're drawn to what we are trying to change or improve in ourselves. I grew up in the Ozarks, and I've come to learn that we're pioneer stock. We're people who get things done. Don't talk about much; get it done. And we don't complain. Complaining is really looked down upon.

“And it's not true. We're always kind of ‘Woe is me.’ But this idea of if you get hurt, you break an arm, you cut yourself, you just deal with it. You don't make a big fuss about it. And there's a positive side to that that I appreciate. But it works the same way internally — what I've described as not taking inventory of yourself. How are you feeling at this moment? What's really going on? We just don't deal with it, and get on with it. And that, I've found a real hindrance.”

https://www.christianpost.com/guy-identifies-as-atheist-says-he-was-just-being-rebellious.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 18, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
Demario Davis 'Man of God' headband sales explode after NFL fine, he's giving it all to charity
By Yael Halon | Fox News

New Orleans Saints linebacker Demario Davis' has raised $120,000 for a local Mississippi hospital through the sale of his "Man of God" headband that earned him a fine from the NFL back in September.

"This is amazing, it just shows you the power of God... I would have never thought this whole movement would have happened."

— Demario Davis on Fox Nation's "Laura and Raymond"
"This is amazing, it just shows you the power of God," said Davis on the latest episode of Fox Nation's "Laura and Raymond." "You know, I would have never thought this whole movement would have happened — and it's not just here in New Orleans. It's been national."

Davis recently made headlines after he was fined by the NFL for wearing a headband that read, “Man of God” during a Sept. 22 game against the Seahawks in Seattle.

Before appealing the $7,000 fine for the uniform infraction, the linebacker hoped to turn the situation into a positive, he explained, and decided to start selling the headbands and pledging 100 percent of the “Man of God” and “Woman of God” proceeds to St. Dominic Hospital in Jackson, Miss. The league eventually relented and repealed the fine.

(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2019/10/1862/1048/DeMario-Davis.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Outside linebacker Demario Davis #56 of the New Orleans Saints reacts ahead of the game against the Los Angeles Rams at Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum on Sept. 15, 2019 in Los Angeles. (Meg Oliphant/Getty Images)

The black and gold headbands, priced at $25 apiece, have raised more than $60,000, with an equal matching grant given to the hospital bringing the donations to $120,000 to date.

Davis, in his second season with the Saints, is one of the most vocal players in the NFL when it comes to his faith. Describing his reaction to the initial fine, David said he felt "conflicted."

“Should I continue to wear it because of the messaging or would I follow the rule? Which would bring ultimate glory to God," he explained on the Fox Nation show.

Many rallied behind the professional linebacker, but he was especially moved by a school of young fans who made their own “Child of God” headbands to show support.

"To see the kids make the paper headbands was just unbelievable," Davis said in the latest episode.

"If you can reach the kids, you know it's real because kids don't think based on politics or anything like that...they're just thinking with what they feel," he said, detailing plans to visit the students to "express his gratitude" in the coming weeks.

FOX 8 New Orleans

@FOX8NOLA

(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1184260236359675905/xkL0hBrk?format=jpg&name=600x314)
Saints linebacker won’t have to pay fine; school shows support with ‘Child of God’ headbands https://www.fox8live.com/2019/10/08/saints-linebacker-wont-have-pay-fine-school-shows-suport-with-child-god-headbands/ …

Saints linebacker won’t have to pay fine; school shows support with ‘Child of God’ headbands
A Metairie Catholic school showed support to a Saints player by letting students wear headbands expressing their faith.

fox8live.com
64
2:03 PM - Oct 8, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
22 people are talking about this
Davis said he was able to see God's hand throughout the entire deal, and looks forward to raising more money for the emergency department at the hospital.

"It went from something that was going to cost me $7,000 now went in favor of good, $120,000 and we just took that fine that we were planning on paying to the league and donated it to the cause," he said.

Later in the segment, Fox Nation host Raymond Arroyo asked Davis about a recent incident on the field after Davis plowed into Jacksonville Jaguars tight end Geoff Swaim sending the receiver – and the ball – to the ground.

A clearly hurt Swaim remained on the field following the hit, but Davis immediately began praying for the opposing player.

Deuce Windham
@RevDeuceWindham
Emotional scene as #Saints LB Demario Davis is on the field with players from both teams praying for #Jaguars TE Jeff Swaim whom Davis hit on an attempted pass.

Looked like Davis led with shoulder, but tried to duck underneath. Swaim took a huge shot. Being tended to now.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGyCjUlWwAcD1xR?format=jpg&name=medium)
View image on Twitter
445
9:27 AM - Oct 13, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
119 people are talking about this

"I just wanted to take time to pray for him, and my prayers and thoughts are still with him, hopefully, he is going to fully recover from that, because it's such a fast game, and so much is happening so fast...and I heard the crowd before I turned around and I was like 'oh, that must've not been good'...and the first thing that I did was just to go and pray...and I think that respect is mutual across the field," Davis explained.

The linebacker got deeply personal during many points of the Fox Nation segment, discussing his tumultuous childhood, his prison time and how it transformed his life, and his journey to finding God. He also said he holds no grudges against the NFL for the headband fine and reiterated his purpose to "glorify God" in everything he does.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/demario-davis-man-of-god-headbands-jump-as-he-announces-120k-for-local-hospital
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on October 19, 2019, 08:51:42 AM
Demario Davis 'Man of God' headband sales explode after NFL fine, he's giving it all to charity
By Yael Halon | Fox News

New Orleans Saints linebacker Demario Davis' has raised $120,000 for a local Mississippi hospital through the sale of his "Man of God" headband that earned him a fine from the NFL back in September.

That’s a nice gesture on his behalf.


Davis recently made headlines after he was fined by the NFL for wearing a headband that read, “Man of God” during a Sept. 22 game against the Seahawks in Seattle.

I can sorta understand the need for some rules, but this one seems overbroad to begin with and stupid of the NFL to try and enforce it in this instance. But then again, this ain’t the first time the NFL has done something stupid.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 22, 2019, 09:20:39 AM
That’s a nice gesture on his behalf.


I can sorta understand the need for some rules, but this one seems overbroad to begin with and stupid of the NFL to try and enforce it in this instance. But then again, this ain’t the first time the NFL has done something stupid.

I agree.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on October 24, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
Report names 43 Colorado Catholic priests accused of sexually abusing at least 166 children since 1950

Forty-three Catholic priests have been credibly accused of sexually abusing at least 166 children in Colorado since 1950, according to a ground-breaking report made public Wednesday morning.

One priest, Father Harold Robert White, had 63 substantiated allegations lodged against him. In the report, the Colorado Attorney General’s Office referred to White as "the most prolific known clergy child sex abuser in Colorado history.”

"His sexual abuse of children began before he was ordained in 1960, and it continued for at least 21 years in at least six parishes from Denver to Colorado Springs to Sterling to Loveland to Minturn to Aspen,"
the report reads.

" … This one priest’s career and the Denver Archdiocese’s management of it present a microcosm of virtually all the failures we found elsewhere in our review of the Colorado Dioceses’ child sex abuse history."

White died in 2006 at age 73. Though the first accusations against him were made in 1960, he wasn't permanently removed from the ministry until 1993.

The report found that from 1950 to present:


According to the report, just five of the Colorado priests had abused at least 102 of the 166 known victims. Two-thirds of those victims were abused in the 1960s and 1970s.

On average, it took nearly 20 years for the church to restrict a priest’s authority after receiving an allegation of sexual abuse, the report found.

https://www.9news.com/article/news/investigations/priest-abuse-list-colorado-catholic-priests-accused-child-sex-abuse/73-db1f5024-eb63-4c81-9d86-e3023ea698fe
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 25, 2019, 06:47:29 PM
Supreme Court rejects case of Christian teen forced to write Islamic conversion prayer
By Lauren Green | Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/supreme-court-rejects-case-of-christian-teen-forced-to-write-islamic-conversion-prayer
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 25, 2019, 08:50:38 PM
That’s a nice gesture on his behalf.


I can sorta understand the need for some rules, but this one seems overbroad to begin with and stupid of the NFL to try and enforce it in this instance. But then again, this ain’t the first time the NFL has done something stupid.

I think the NFL is just trying to avoid the "Islam is the Only Way" headband which would certainly show up if this was allowed
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 05, 2019, 04:21:06 PM
High school football player goes viral after praying for opponent whose mom is battling cancer
Ashleigh Jackson, Digital Content Producer
Posted on Nov 5, 2019 
KXII-TV via CNN
(https://external-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQBH6k-x15qW2qx2&w=540&h=282&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com%2Ffox5vegas.com%2Fcontent%2Ftncms%2Fassets%2Fv3%2Feditorial%2F2%2F53%2F253b92f4-c95d-53ad-bebc-8d014b38f9b1%2F5dc1957db7e1a.preview.jpg%3Fresize%3D1080%252C608&cfs=1&upscale=1&fallback=news_d_placeholder_publisher&_nc_hash=AQA4aM1QvKjJbq3s)
Two high school football players took a knee and prayed together after their game, and a photo of the touching moment is going viral. 

(Meredith) - A photo of two high school athletes praying together following their football game in Sherman, Texas, is touching hearts across the country.

Gage Smith, a wide receiver at Sherman High School, made several key plays to help lead his team to victory during Friday night's game against Mesquite West.

After that win, he took a knee to pray with his opponent, Ty Jordan, whose mother is battling cancer.

"I just had a moment with him praying over him, his mom, and his family," Smith told KXII-TV.

The high school senior said at that moment he was not thinking about the score, he just wanted to show compassion.

"When you're playing the game, you're playing to win, and the other team is the enemy. But afterward, you still have respect for the other opponent," he said. "Football brings people together in so many different ways, and that was just one example of it that night."

Smith and Jordan first met while playing on a select 7-on-7 team, according to the station.

Following the game on Friday, Jordan's aunt posted the touching image to Facebook, where it went viral. It's been shared more than 150,000 times as of Tuesday morning.

"This melts my heart," Jordan's aunt wrote.

J.D. Martinez, the head football coach at Sherman High School, told KXII-TV that Smith is a leader on and off the field. Martinez said his wife took the viral photo and shared it with Smith's mom, who then passed it on to Jordan's family.

"It's pretty special that kind of everybody gets to see really what he is," Martinez said. "He's that type of kid all the time. It's just not in front of the cameras or anything like that. He's like that every day."

https://www.fox5vegas.com/news/us_world_news/high-school-football-player-goes-viral-after-praying-for-opponent/article_253b92f4-c95d-53ad-bebc-8d014b38f9b1.html?fbclid=IwAR0Eu_YWKmE_TM0c1kDuhKTSSbuCDTR8rdEGJgIbqjRkAFAFzoH65aP-eBo
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 12, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Trump Gets Impromptu Prayer Huddle from Alabama Football Team
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on November 12, 2019, 03:36:48 PM
High school football player goes viral after praying for opponent whose mom is battling cancer

That’s a nice gesture and one that I’m sure was genuine and heartfelt, but I can’t help but point out what Matthew 6:5-6 has to say about praying and especially “showboating”:


And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy
closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray
to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father
which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on November 12, 2019, 04:16:40 PM
That’s a nice gesture and one that I’m sure was genuine and heartfelt, but I can’t help but point out what Matthew 6:5-6 has to say about praying and especially “showboating”:


And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy
closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray
to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father
which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


I'm not as sure.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 12, 2019, 05:24:11 PM
That’s a nice gesture and one that I’m sure was genuine and heartfelt, but I can’t help but point out what Matthew 6:5-6 has to say about praying and especially “showboating”:


And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy
closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray
to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father
which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


I guess one way to interpret this is that no one should ever pray in public or around other people.  But that's not a reasonable interpretation. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on November 13, 2019, 12:24:37 AM
I guess one way to interpret this is that no one should ever pray in public or around other people.  But that's not a reasonable interpretation. 

I don't think there's much interpreting going on here. This is very direct: _"pray in secret and keep what you're praying for between yourself and God."_

Also, as a sidenote, I find it interesting that God's perfect word is open to (or requires) interpretation. You'd think the "instruction manual" would be perfectly clear, devoid of ambiguity and not in need of any interpretation. But I guess that's too much to ask, isn't it?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 13, 2019, 12:55:36 PM
I don't think there's much interpreting going on here. This is very direct: _"pray in secret and keep what you're praying for between yourself and God."_

Also, as a sidenote, I find it interesting that God's perfect word is open to (or requires) interpretation. You'd think the "instruction manual" would be perfectly clear, devoid of ambiguity and not in need of any interpretation. But I guess that's too much to ask, isn't it?

Of course there is.  Reading that verse in a vacuum makes no sense.  It would mean you never pray out loud in church.  That's silly.  

And no, there is nothing wrong with having to use critical thinking when reading the Bible.  Christianity is a thinking man's religion.  It really does take analysis and use of common sense to read and understand everything.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on November 14, 2019, 09:47:33 AM
Of course there is.  Reading that verse in a vacuum makes no sense.  It would mean you never pray out loud in church.  That's silly.  

And no, there is nothing wrong with having to use critical thinking when reading the Bible.  Christianity is a thinking man's religion.  It really does take analysis and use of common sense to read and understand everything.

If it’s a thinking man’s religion, then not everyone can be saved since not everyone has the rational capacity necessary. And yet, the premise behind a Christianity is that salvation is open to everyone, conditioned only on one thing: belief in Jesus Christ.

As for praying in public, again the verses are crystal clear and provide explicit directions for how one is to pray. You can’t have it both ways: either the Bible is the divinely inspired, inerrant and complete word of God and it instructs you to pray in secret, or it’s not the divinely inspired, inerrant and complete word of God in which case why bother with it?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 14, 2019, 11:38:24 AM
If it’s a thinking man’s religion, then not everyone can be saved since not everyone has the rational capacity necessary. And yet, the premise behind a Christianity is that salvation is open to everyone, conditioned only on one thing: belief in Jesus Christ.

As for praying in public, again the verses are crystal clear and provide explicit directions for how one is to pray. You can’t have it both ways: either the Bible is the divinely inspired, inerrant and complete word of God and it instructs you to pray in secret, or it’s not the divinely inspired, inerrant and complete word of God in which case why bother with it?

Not true.  The Bible specifically talks about a person being held accountable for what they know, not what they don't know. 

Context is everything.  Common sense matters.  But if you put those two aside, then yes you have a point. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on November 14, 2019, 08:37:20 PM
Not true.  The Bible specifically talks about a person being held accountable for what they know, not what they don't know. 

Context is everything.  Common sense matters.  But if you put those two aside, then yes you have a point. 

The Bible may say that but it also sports several examples that run counter to that; you’d expect God’s word to be consistent, especially about something this important but you know, apparently not even God can keep all his nonsense straight.

As for your please about common sense, please spare us. Your religion’s main thrust is that God knowingly set a standard which we could not live up and made the punishment for failing to do the impossible to be death. He then got the feels and rather than say “aww shucks, all is forgiven” he decided to sacrifice himself to himself to appease his own anger so that he can save us and we can all live together in a city with golden roads. Because he loves us.

Don’t talk to me about common sense.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 14, 2019, 08:45:28 PM
The Bible may say that but it also sports several examples that run counter to that; you’d expect God’s word to be consistent, especially about something this important but you know, apparently not even God can keep all his nonsense straight.

As for your please about common sense, please spare us. Your religion’s main thrust is that God knowingly set a standard which we could not live up and made the punishment for failing to do the impossible to be death. He then got the feels and rather than say “aww shucks, all is forgiven” he decided to sacrifice himself to himself to appease his own anger so that he can save us and we can all live together in a city with golden roads. Because he loves us.

Don’t talk to me about common sense.

You are obviously free to disagree.  My oft-repeated saying, which you are free to borrow, is that reasonable and unreasonable minds can disagree.   :)

Seriously, though, there is definitely a great deal of analysis that goes into Bible study and interpretation.  The Bible itself even says you need to compare scripture with scripture.  And yes, you definitely need to apply common sense if you want a reasonable interpretation, which goes hand in hand with context.   

There are some things I don't understand, but much of it I do.  And I use my own judgment.  I apply logic.  Use faith where I think it's necessary.  It makes things relatively uncomplicated.  And I have no problem disagreeing with other Christians who have a different viewpoint, which has happened a number of times. 

What I don't do is let anyone tell me how I'm supposed to interpret what I read or how I live my life. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 15, 2019, 07:13:38 PM
I don't think there's much interpreting going on here. This is very direct: _"pray in secret and keep what you're praying for between yourself and God."_

Also, as a sidenote, I find it interesting that God's perfect word is open to (or requires) interpretation. You'd think the "instruction manual" would be perfectly clear, devoid of ambiguity and not in need of any interpretation. But I guess that's too much to ask, isn't it?

Nothing more to say.. this sums it up. But... modern Christianity isn't really about what the bible says, or what Jesus says.. hasn't been for a long time. You can do what AVXO did and point out exactly what Jesus said, but todays Christians will still argue it.. based on nothing but what THEY think it ought to be..
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: avxo on November 16, 2019, 01:19:55 AM
You are obviously free to disagree.  My oft-repeated saying, which you are free to borrow, is that reasonable and unreasonable minds can disagree.   :)

That much we agree on. That's something.

Seriously, though, there is definitely a great deal of analysis that goes into Bible study and interpretation.  The Bible itself even says you need to compare scripture with scripture.  And yes, you definitely need to apply common sense if you want a reasonable interpretation, which goes hand in hand with context. 

I know there is a great deal of analysis; that's the whole point of pastors "explaining" the Bible, isn't it? To be perfectly honest, I do very much enjoy hearing radio pastors who role-play as experts in exegetics and apologetics and regularly twist themselves into knots to justify just about anything.

Of course, there's the simple fact that no amount of analysis works sometimes. You know what they say: "garbage in, garbage out."


There are some things I don't understand, but much of it I do.  And I use my own judgment.  I apply logic.  Use faith where I think it's necessary.  It makes things relatively uncomplicated.  And I have no problem disagreeing with other Christians who have a different viewpoint, which has happened a number of times.

I can respect that position.


What I don't do is let anyone tell me how I'm supposed to interpret what I read or how I live my life. 

I can respect that position as well. You're certainly free to interpret what you read in any way you want, but you do so at your peril since, ultimately, you are responsible for your actions and not the book you read. And while you are free to live your life in any way you see fit, that freedom doesn't allow you to try to force your sense of morality on your personal beliefs on others, nor does it entitle you to claim that the Bible proposes a divine and inerrant moral code if you believe that it's open to interpretation.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 18, 2019, 03:34:36 PM
That much we agree on. That's something.

I know there is a great deal of analysis; that's the whole point of pastors "explaining" the Bible, isn't it? To be perfectly honest, I do very much enjoy hearing radio pastors who role-play as experts in exegetics and apologetics and regularly twist themselves into knots to justify just about anything.

Of course, there's the simple fact that no amount of analysis works sometimes. You know what they say: "garbage in, garbage out."


I can respect that position.


I can respect that position as well. You're certainly free to interpret what you read in any way you want, but you do so at your peril since, ultimately, you are responsible for your actions and not the book you read. And while you are free to live your life in any way you see fit, that freedom doesn't allow you to try to force your sense of morality on your personal beliefs on others, nor does it entitle you to claim that the Bible proposes a divine and inerrant moral code if you believe that it's open to interpretation.

There is no peril in how I interpret the Bible or how I live my life. 

Regarding forcing my sense of morality or personal belief on others, I never do that so not sure what you're talking about. 

And I can claim whatever I want about what the Bible proposes, just like you or anyone else can.  My viewpoint is my viewpoint.  Yours is yours.   

What exactly are we debating here anyway?  lol 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 28, 2019, 08:19:40 PM
There is no peril in how I interpret the Bible or how I live my life. 

Regarding forcing my sense of morality or personal belief on others, I never do that so not sure what you're talking about. 

And I can claim whatever I want about what the Bible proposes, just like you or anyone else can.  My viewpoint is my viewpoint.  Yours is yours.   

What exactly are we debating here anyway?  lol 

Obviously you know more about what Jesus said than.....Jesus....  ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 29, 2019, 11:50:00 AM
Obviously you know more about what Jesus said than.....Jesus....  ::)

I know what He said by reading what He said.  But thanks for another meaningless troll post. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 13, 2019, 09:26:50 PM
I know what He said by reading what He said.  But thanks for another meaningless troll post. 

whooosh!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on December 13, 2019, 09:41:26 PM
Obviously you know more about what Jesus said than.....Jesus....  ::)

Actually, it doesn't take a degree in Theology to understand the teachings of the Nazarene.  Recall if you dare the Jewish leaders belittling the Christ as "just the son of a carpenter", a man who had no learning of worth in the Torah (like them).  You need no degree to see that which is good and worthy of being called so.  But...

But it does take honesty and common sense to understand the teaching of the Nazarene.  Two things that the Jewish leaders and you seem to be lacking.  Don't worry.  You're not alone in that respect.  Look to Straw Man or Prime for example.

Go ahead.  Even in my current state you are no match.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 13, 2019, 10:23:14 PM
Actually, it doesn't take a degree in Theology to understand the teachings of the Nazarene.  Recall if you dare the Jewish leaders belittling the Christ as "just the son of a carpenter", a man who had no learning of worth in the Torah (like them).  You need no degree to see that which is good and worthy of being called so.  But...

But it does take honesty and common sense to understand the teaching of the Nazarene.  Two things that the Jewish leaders and you seem to be lacking.  Don't worry.  You're not alone in that respect.  Look to Straw Man or Prime for example.

Go ahead.  Even in my current state you are no match.

Your first paragraph.. Nothing to contest.



Second,  Other than the baseless claim I don't understand, cool. 

Your last made me laugh..
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on December 14, 2019, 07:10:05 AM
Your first paragraph.. Nothing to contest.



Second,  Other than the baseless claim I don't understand, cool. 

Your last made me laugh..

I speak the truth which you and others here can only make light of, because it is impossible to refute.  I'm not here to make anyone feeeeeel better about their choices in life.  Neither am I here to change the diaper of the liberal mindset.

Your nightmare is the fact that a Christian became as you, that is an atheist, albeit more Atheist and with far greater insight and wit that you and your kindred kunts here will ever possess.  I don't give a flying fuque about the state of your "soul" and there is naught you can do but suffer the humiliation of my words.

 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 17, 2019, 10:38:03 PM
Blake Shelton believes in God more than ever, now attends church regularly because of Gwen Stefani
By Jeannie Law, Christian Post Reporter| Wednesday, December 11, 2019

Blake Shelton has publicly thanked his girlfriend, Gwen Stefani, for strengthening his relationship with God and encouraging him to attend church more often.

Shelton told The Tennessean that along with creating music with Stefani, she has also been instrumental in the rededication of his faith.

“I believe in God now more than I ever have in my life,” he told the newspaper. “The biggest part of that is just how [Gwen] came into my life and now our relationship.”

“If you take God out of it, it doesn’t make sense. If you put God into it, everything that’s happened with us makes sense,” he added.

The couple, who are both divorced from their ex-spouses — Miranda Lambert and Gavin Rossdale — began dating in 2015 while working as judges on season nine of NBC's "The Voice."

Currently working on Season 17 together, the couple announced that they are debuting a new single later this month titled “Nobody But You.”

“This was one of those songs where the more I heard it, the more I fell in love with it,” Shelton told E! News. “I also realized how important it is for me and where I am in my life…”

In Shelton's interview with The Tennessean, the CMA winner revealed that Stefani encouraged him to begin attending church on a regular basis. That is what inspired him to “turn a page” in his life, he confessed.

While Shelton’s relationship with God was strengthened this year, he admitted he still drinks and curses more than he should. However, his new music has been loaded with songs about his faith, including his No. 1 country hit, “God’s Country.” In another song titled, “Jesus Got a Tight Grip,” he talks about his actions and God’s love.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/blake-shelton-believes-in-god-more-than-ever-attends-church-regularly-gwen-stefani.html
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 24, 2019, 01:14:14 PM
Baltimore Ravens QB Lamar Jackson on who keeps him humble: 'The Lord'
By Jon Ackerman Dec 19, 2019

Baltimore Ravens quarterback Lamar Jackson is enjoying a breakout season, his first as an unquestioned starter in the NFL. After garnering just seven starts as a rookie in 2018, he’s led the Ravens to a 12-2 record so far this season — the best mark in the NFL and the best start in franchise history.

It’s been a great season in Baltimore largely because Jackson is the league MVP frontrunner. He leads the NFL in TD passes (33) and adjusted QB rating (81.3) despite not throwing for a ton of yards. His 2,889 passing yards rank 19th in the league. But the mobile QB has added 1,103 rushing yards through 14 games, making him the eighth leading rusher in the NFL. Jackson has also added seven scores on the ground. He’s the first quarterback in NFL history to throw for at least 2,500 yards and rush for at least 950 yards.

All that has led to Jackson’s first Pro Bowl selection, which was announced by the league on Tuesday, and he was voted to be the AFC’s starting quarterback (unless he and the Ravens make it to the Super Bowl). On Wednesday, Jackson was asked by the media if there is something or someone that keeps him humble while he’s enjoying all this football success.

“The Lord,” he promptly responded. “I give Him all His praise, the glory, the honor, because of what I am. I could have been doing anything, it’s crazy. I’ll be thinking about it, talking to Him throughout the day, like, ‘Man, I appreciate You, I thank You.’ Because if you feel like you’re bigger than the Lord, that’s when all that success die, it goes away. You got to let Him know He’s the reason you [have had] that much success. So I appreciate that from Him. And I’ve got my family around me, my teammates, great teammates, coaching staff. We’ve just got to keep it going and let the Lord know He’s No. 1.”

Sports Spectrum
@Sports_Spectrum
 “I give Him all His praise, the glory, the honor ... When you feel like you’re bigger than the Lord, that’s when all that success die. It goes away.”

Ravens QB Lamar Jackson @Lj_era8 talks about how God keeps him humble.

 Embedded video
11.8K
9:29 AM - Dec 18, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
3,174 people are talking about this
Jackson also gave praise to God three years ago when accepting the Heisman Trophy following his sophomore season at the University of Louisville. He was the youngest player to ever receive college football’s top award.

“First and foremost, before I go further along in my speech, I want to thank my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Jackson said. “Without Him, none of us would be here right now.”

Jackson and the Ravens continue their remarkable season on Sunday in Cleveland, one of two teams to beat Baltimore this year (along with the Chiefs). The Ravens will then close out the regular season at home against Pittsburgh and aim to keep hold of the AFC’s No. 1 seed for the playoffs.

https://sportsspectrum.com/sport/football/2019/12/19/baltimore-ravens-qb-lamar-jackson-the-lord-keeps-him-humble/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on December 24, 2019, 04:27:03 PM
Sellebrtities be they singers, actors, athletes, what have you, suck.  Their faith is phony  and their humility nonexistent.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 24, 2019, 05:06:08 PM
Sellebrtities be they singers, actors, athletes, what have you, suck.  Their faith is phony  and their humility nonexistent.

Pretty broad brush.  We never really know what's in a person's heart, but I do think some of them are sincere. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on December 24, 2019, 07:10:48 PM
Pretty broad brush.  We never really know what's in a person's heart, but I do think some of them are sincere. 

Their egos demand a  broad brush.  I tend to THINK that their actions and not their flaccid words show exactly what lies in their filthy hearts.  I've seen enough false ministers and their followers to know whereof I speak.  If you think otherwise, fine.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on December 24, 2019, 07:36:05 PM
Their egos demand a  broad brush.  I tend to THINK that their actions and not their flaccid words show exactly what lies in their filthy hearts.  I've seen enough false ministers and their followers to know whereof I speak.  If you think otherwise, fine.

Just to clarify, we're talking about the ones who are open about their faith and not entertainers, athletes, and actors in general? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Primemuscle on December 24, 2019, 08:20:55 PM
Blake Shelton believes in God more than ever, now attends church regularly because of Gwen Stefani
By Jeannie Law, Christian Post Reporter| Wednesday, December 11, 2019

Blake Shelton has publicly thanked his girlfriend, Gwen Stefani, for strengthening his relationship with God and encouraging him to attend church more often.

Shelton told The Tennessean that along with creating music with Stefani, she has also been instrumental in the rededication of his faith.

“I believe in God now more than I ever have in my life,” he told the newspaper. “The biggest part of that is just how [Gwen] came into my life and now our relationship.”

“If you take God out of it, it doesn’t make sense. If you put God into it, everything that’s happened with us makes sense,” he added.

The couple, who are both divorced from their ex-spouses — Miranda Lambert and Gavin Rossdale — began dating in 2015 while working as judges on season nine of NBC's "The Voice."

Currently working on Season 17 together, the couple announced that they are debuting a new single later this month titled “Nobody But You.”

“This was one of those songs where the more I heard it, the more I fell in love with it,” Shelton told E! News. “I also realized how important it is for me and where I am in my life…”

In Shelton's interview with The Tennessean, the CMA winner revealed that Stefani encouraged him to begin attending church on a regular basis. That is what inspired him to “turn a page” in his life, he confessed.

While Shelton’s relationship with God was strengthened this year, he admitted he still drinks and curses more than he should. However, his new music has been loaded with songs about his faith, including his No. 1 country hit, “God’s Country.” In another song titled, “Jesus Got a Tight Grip,” he talks about his actions and God’s love.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/blake-shelton-believes-in-god-more-than-ever-attends-church-regularly-gwen-stefani.html

Sweet.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on December 25, 2019, 02:20:32 AM
Blake Shelton believes in God more than ever, now attends church regularly because of Gwen Stefani
By Jeannie Law, Christian Post Reporter| Wednesday, December 11, 2019

Blake Shelton has publicly thanked his girlfriend, Gwen Stefani, for strengthening his relationship with God and encouraging him to attend church more often.

Shelton told The Tennessean that along with creating music with Stefani, she has also been instrumental in the rededication of his faith.

“I believe in God now more than I ever have in my life,” he told the newspaper. “The biggest part of that is just how [Gwen] came into my life and now our relationship.”

“If you take God out of it, it doesn’t make sense. If you put God into it, everything that’s happened with us makes sense,” he added.

The couple, who are both divorced from their ex-spouses — Miranda Lambert and Gavin Rossdale — began dating in 2015 while working as judges on season nine of NBC's "The Voice."

Currently working on Season 17 together, the couple announced that they are debuting a new single later this month titled “Nobody But You.”

“This was one of those songs where the more I heard it, the more I fell in love with it,” Shelton told E! News. “I also realized how important it is for me and where I am in my life…”

In Shelton's interview with The Tennessean, the CMA winner revealed that Stefani encouraged him to begin attending church on a regular basis. That is what inspired him to “turn a page” in his life, he confessed.

While Shelton’s relationship with God was strengthened this year, he admitted he still drinks and curses more than he should. However, his new music has been loaded with songs about his faith, including his No. 1 country hit, “God’s Country.” In another song titled, “Jesus Got a Tight Grip,” he talks about his actions and God’s love.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/blake-shelton-believes-in-god-more-than-ever-attends-church-regularly-gwen-stefani.html
Interesting to see devout Christians openly not living according to their stated Biblical beliefs.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on December 25, 2019, 06:37:16 AM
Just to clarify, we're talking about the ones who are open about their faith and not entertainers, athletes, and actors in general? 

If I, who no longer believe, were to suddenly announce that I do and yet still behave in a manner totally opposite to my claimed faith, who would believe such nonsense?

The Nazarene spoke of such people. 

…Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’…

A tree is known by the fruit it produces.  Trees such as these two sellebrities are barren and with good reason. 

Whitewashed sepulchers.  All clean on the outside that the world pretends to see with understanding, but within full of death and corruption. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on December 25, 2019, 09:45:52 AM
If I, who no longer believe, were to suddenly announce that I do and yet still behave in a manner totally opposite to my claimed faith, who would believe such nonsense?

The Nazarene spoke of such people. 

…Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’…

A tree is known by the fruit it produces.  Trees such as these two sellebrities are barren and with good reason. 

Whitewashed sepulchers.  All clean on the outside that the world pretends to see with understanding, but within full of death and corruption. 

My friend I do care about a great deal you despite limited participation on these boards in recent years.

I know you're in a season of spiritual discouragement and I'm sure with good reason.  I have confidence that you will return to Jesus in due time and I'll continue to lift you up in prayer in the meantime. 

Have a blessed Christmas....you're a good man.

MOS
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 08, 2020, 11:38:05 PM
Georgia QB Jake Fromm: ‘I Want to Represent Christ the Best I Can’
By Craig Millward | January 2, 2020

(CNSNews.com) -- Following their 26-14 win over Baylor University in the Allstate Sugar Bowl at the Mercedes-Benz Superdome in New Orleans, La. on Wednesday, University of Georgia Quarterback Jake Fromm said, “praise God for the opportunity to come out here and play.” He added,  “I want to represent Christ the best I can.”

During his postgame interview with ESPN reporter Holly Rowe, Fromm was asked, “If this is your last game as a Georgia Bulldog, what do you want people to remember about Jake Fromm?”

“I want to represent Christ the best I can,” Fromm responded. “I hope I can reach and influence as many people as possible. I’m thankful to play here, this university is amazing. And to play here every single game, every single moment has been a blessing. I’m so thankful to be able to play here.

Fromm, a junior, had 20 completions on 30 attempts for 250 yards and two touchdowns in the victory. He has not yet decided whether to return for his senior season or enter the 2020 NFL Draft.

Below is a transcript between Fromm and Rowe:

Holly Rowe: “One of the best quarterbacks to play here at Georgia and put a uniform on, how proud were you tonight of the way you were able to connect and this offense was able to move the football?”

Jake Fromm: “This is awesome. Praise God for the opportunity to come out here and play. I think our guys responded well. There was no doubt from our guys who wanted to play, our guys showed up. They played their hearts out and to come out here and play four quarters, to come out here with a victory is a blessing.”

Rowe: “I know nobody will give them the game ball but I really believe your offensive line, this remade offensive line had your back. How did they show up?”

Fromm: “Cade [Mays], Jamaree [Salyer], Warren [Ericson], those guys, they got put in a big role. They stepped up, they played great. So thankful for those guys and their hard work showing off and paying off.”

Rowe: “I know that you have a difficult decision to make in your future but how does it help for you to see the bright future of some of these young receivers around you?”

Fromm” Yeah, absolutely. These guys are stepping up, they’re making plays. The best is ahead for them, no doubt.”

Rowe: “If this is your last game as a Georgia Bulldog, what do you want people to remember about Jake Fromm?”

Fromm: “I want to represent Christ the best I can. I hope I can reach and influence as many people as possible. I’m thankful to play here, this university is amazing. And to play here every single game, every single moment has been a blessing. I’m so thankful to be able to play here.”

Following the interview, Play-by-play Commentator Sean McDonough called Fromm a “class act.”

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-millward/georgia-qb-jake-fromm-i-want-represent-christ-best-i-can?fbclid=IwAR3IA-B_K5kenvzrYdV4SzsQWSStcZeYU58CeJTSLoFaDBlYQwI83JVWx7Y#utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cns&utm_campaign=b-GeorgiaQBFrommRepresentChristBestICan
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on January 16, 2020, 08:06:16 PM
If I, who no longer believe, were to suddenly announce that I do and yet still behave in a manner totally opposite to my claimed faith, who would believe such nonsense?

The Nazarene spoke of such people. 

…Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’…

A tree is known by the fruit it produces.  Trees such as these two sellebrities are barren and with good reason. 

Whitewashed sepulchers.  All clean on the outside that the world pretends to see with understanding, but within full of death and corruption. 

word..
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Roast Beef Pecs on July 21, 2020, 09:12:15 AM
My friend I do care about a great deal you despite limited participation on these boards in recent years.

I know you're in a season of spiritual discouragement and I'm sure with good reason.  I have confidence that you will return to Jesus in due time and I'll continue to lift you up in prayer in the meantime. 

Have a blessed Christmas....you're a good man.

MOS
No he's not. He's a pompous ass.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IrishMuscle84 on July 30, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
Nothing wrong with praying  in public, just don't do it for attention like the bible says.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 30, 2020, 09:13:49 PM
Nothing wrong with praying  in public, just don't do it for attention like the bible says.

Well, the bible actually says go in your room and close the door. So to do it like the bible says...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on November 12, 2020, 12:05:28 PM
Utah high court weighs case of woman who says church made her listen to audio of her rape

The Utah Supreme Court heard arguments Monday in a case alleging male leaders of a Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation in Roy forced a 15-year-old girl to listen to a recording of a man raping her in 2008.

Lower courts found the church is not liable for the incident under protections of the First Amendment.

The state’s high court has not yet made any ruling, but one justice made his views on the alleged conduct clear.

“The allegation here is a mental and emotional equivalent of waterboarding,” Justice Deno Himonas said. “I’ve been a judge for a long time and a lawyer for a long time. I’ve never seen, in court, anything like this that’s alleged.”

The justice was responding to an attorney for the church who referenced the torture in defending her clients. Lawyer Kara Porter said she would draw a line at such physical harm. But she emphasized the woman in the case alleges intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Attorneys for the woman now in her late 20s argue that lower courts got it wrong when they ruled that the First Amendment shields the church from liability.

They say that Utah’s highest court will set a dangerous precedent if it decides to grant such protection, effectively permitting other harmful conduct by religious organizations like sharing a person’s medical records or repeatedly striking a child in the face.

Porter emphasized that the tribunal was trying to determine whether the girl had sinned, a process the government isn’t permitted to meddle in.

The woman sued the four elders, the Roy church and the religion’s national organization, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, in Oden’s 2nd District Court in 2016. She alleges she cried, shook visibly and pleaded for them to stop as they played the recording intermittently over the course of at least four hours in 2008. Their goal was to extract a confession that she had voluntarily engaged in sex outside of marriage, her attorneys contend.

She alleges she was 14 years old when the man, a fellow Jehovah’s Witness, 18, bullied her increasingly and began sexually assaulting her in December 2007. She alleges he raped her several times and provided her congregation’s leaders a recording of one instance.

She sought out counseling and medical treatment as she dealt with anxiety, nightmares and poor performance in school, her attorneys say. They note that before she appealed, the 2nd District Court ruled it would have “no hesitation” in sending the case to a jury if it pertained to a secular setting.

The U.S. Supreme Court has held that a government action violates the First Amendment’s prohibition on establishing religion if it fosters an “excessive entanglement with religion.”

The Utah Court of Appeals ruled last year that adjudicating the woman’s legal claim would amount to excessive entanglement because it “requires an inquiry into the appropriateness of the church’s conduct in applying a religious practice and therefore violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.”

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/11/9/21557200/utah-supreme-court-case-woman-says-church-made-her-listen-to-audio-of-her-rape-jehovahs-witnesses
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 16, 2020, 08:44:12 PM
Utah high court weighs case of woman who says church made her listen to audio of her rape

The Utah Supreme Court heard arguments Monday in a case alleging male leaders of a Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation in Roy forced a 15-year-old girl to listen to a recording of a man raping her in 2008.

Lower courts found the church is not liable for the incident under protections of the First Amendment.

The state’s high court has not yet made any ruling, but one justice made his views on the alleged conduct clear.

“The allegation here is a mental and emotional equivalent of waterboarding,” Justice Deno Himonas said. “I’ve been a judge for a long time and a lawyer for a long time. I’ve never seen, in court, anything like this that’s alleged.”

The justice was responding to an attorney for the church who referenced the torture in defending her clients. Lawyer Kara Porter said she would draw a line at such physical harm. But she emphasized the woman in the case alleges intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Attorneys for the woman now in her late 20s argue that lower courts got it wrong when they ruled that the First Amendment shields the church from liability.

They say that Utah’s highest court will set a dangerous precedent if it decides to grant such protection, effectively permitting other harmful conduct by religious organizations like sharing a person’s medical records or repeatedly striking a child in the face.

Porter emphasized that the tribunal was trying to determine whether the girl had sinned, a process the government isn’t permitted to meddle in.

The woman sued the four elders, the Roy church and the religion’s national organization, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, in Oden’s 2nd District Court in 2016. She alleges she cried, shook visibly and pleaded for them to stop as they played the recording intermittently over the course of at least four hours in 2008. Their goal was to extract a confession that she had voluntarily engaged in sex outside of marriage, her attorneys contend.

She alleges she was 14 years old when the man, a fellow Jehovah’s Witness, 18, bullied her increasingly and began sexually assaulting her in December 2007. She alleges he raped her several times and provided her congregation’s leaders a recording of one instance.

She sought out counseling and medical treatment as she dealt with anxiety, nightmares and poor performance in school, her attorneys say. They note that before she appealed, the 2nd District Court ruled it would have “no hesitation” in sending the case to a jury if it pertained to a secular setting.

The U.S. Supreme Court has held that a government action violates the First Amendment’s prohibition on establishing religion if it fosters an “excessive entanglement with religion.”

The Utah Court of Appeals ruled last year that adjudicating the woman’s legal claim would amount to excessive entanglement because it “requires an inquiry into the appropriateness of the church’s conduct in applying a religious practice and therefore violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.”

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/11/9/21557200/utah-supreme-court-case-woman-says-church-made-her-listen-to-audio-of-her-rape-jehovahs-witnesses

can I make a suggestion. You would be better served to create your own thread about the atrocities of religion.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 17, 2020, 03:43:53 AM
Georgia QB Jake Fromm: ‘I Want to Represent Christ the Best I Can’
By Craig Millward | January 2, 2020

(CNSNews.com) -- Following their 26-14 win over Baylor University in the Allstate Sugar Bowl at the Mercedes-Benz Superdome in New Orleans, La. on Wednesday, University of Georgia Quarterback Jake Fromm said, “praise God for the opportunity to come out here and play.” He added,  “I want to represent Christ the best I can.”

During his postgame interview with ESPN reporter Holly Rowe, Fromm was asked, “If this is your last game as a Georgia Bulldog, what do you want people to remember about Jake Fromm?”

“I want to represent Christ the best I can,” Fromm responded. “I hope I can reach and influence as many people as possible. I’m thankful to play here, this university is amazing. And to play here every single game, every single moment has been a blessing. I’m so thankful to be able to play here.

Fromm, a junior, had 20 completions on 30 attempts for 250 yards and two touchdowns in the victory. He has not yet decided whether to return for his senior season or enter the 2020 NFL Draft.

Below is a transcript between Fromm and Rowe:

Holly Rowe: “One of the best quarterbacks to play here at Georgia and put a uniform on, how proud were you tonight of the way you were able to connect and this offense was able to move the football?”

Jake Fromm: “This is awesome. Praise God for the opportunity to come out here and play. I think our guys responded well. There was no doubt from our guys who wanted to play, our guys showed up. They played their hearts out and to come out here and play four quarters, to come out here with a victory is a blessing.”

Rowe: “I know nobody will give them the game ball but I really believe your offensive line, this remade offensive line had your back. How did they show up?”

Fromm: “Cade [Mays], Jamaree [Salyer], Warren [Ericson], those guys, they got put in a big role. They stepped up, they played great. So thankful for those guys and their hard work showing off and paying off.”

Rowe: “I know that you have a difficult decision to make in your future but how does it help for you to see the bright future of some of these young receivers around you?”

Fromm” Yeah, absolutely. These guys are stepping up, they’re making plays. The best is ahead for them, no doubt.”

Rowe: “If this is your last game as a Georgia Bulldog, what do you want people to remember about Jake Fromm?”

Fromm: “I want to represent Christ the best I can. I hope I can reach and influence as many people as possible. I’m thankful to play here, this university is amazing. And to play here every single game, every single moment has been a blessing. I’m so thankful to be able to play here.”

Following the interview, Play-by-play Commentator Sean McDonough called Fromm a “class act.”

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-millward/georgia-qb-jake-fromm-i-want-represent-christ-best-i-can?fbclid=IwAR3IA-B_K5kenvzrYdV4SzsQWSStcZeYU58CeJTSLoFaDBlYQwI83JVWx7Y#utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cns&utm_campaign=b-GeorgiaQBFrommRepresentChristBestICan
I didn't know Christ rode the bench.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on November 19, 2020, 01:16:01 PM
Utah high court weighs case of woman who says church made her listen to audio of her rape

The Utah Supreme Court heard arguments Monday in a case alleging male leaders of a Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation in Roy forced a 15-year-old girl to listen to a recording of a man raping her in 2008.

Lower courts found the church is not liable for the incident under protections of the First Amendment.

The state’s high court has not yet made any ruling, but one justice made his views on the alleged conduct clear.

“The allegation here is a mental and emotional equivalent of waterboarding,” Justice Deno Himonas said. “I’ve been a judge for a long time and a lawyer for a long time. I’ve never seen, in court, anything like this that’s alleged.”

The justice was responding to an attorney for the church who referenced the torture in defending her clients. Lawyer Kara Porter said she would draw a line at such physical harm. But she emphasized the woman in the case alleges intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Attorneys for the woman now in her late 20s argue that lower courts got it wrong when they ruled that the First Amendment shields the church from liability.

They say that Utah’s highest court will set a dangerous precedent if it decides to grant such protection, effectively permitting other harmful conduct by religious organizations like sharing a person’s medical records or repeatedly striking a child in the face.

Porter emphasized that the tribunal was trying to determine whether the girl had sinned, a process the government isn’t permitted to meddle in.

The woman sued the four elders, the Roy church and the religion’s national organization, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, in Oden’s 2nd District Court in 2016. She alleges she cried, shook visibly and pleaded for them to stop as they played the recording intermittently over the course of at least four hours in 2008. Their goal was to extract a confession that she had voluntarily engaged in sex outside of marriage, her attorneys contend.

She alleges she was 14 years old when the man, a fellow Jehovah’s Witness, 18, bullied her increasingly and began sexually assaulting her in December 2007. She alleges he raped her several times and provided her congregation’s leaders a recording of one instance.

She sought out counseling and medical treatment as she dealt with anxiety, nightmares and poor performance in school, her attorneys say. They note that before she appealed, the 2nd District Court ruled it would have “no hesitation” in sending the case to a jury if it pertained to a secular setting.

The U.S. Supreme Court has held that a government action violates the First Amendment’s prohibition on establishing religion if it fosters an “excessive entanglement with religion.”

The Utah Court of Appeals ruled last year that adjudicating the woman’s legal claim would amount to excessive entanglement because it “requires an inquiry into the appropriateness of the church’s conduct in applying a religious practice and therefore violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.”

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/11/9/21557200/utah-supreme-court-case-woman-says-church-made-her-listen-to-audio-of-her-rape-jehovahs-witnesses

This doesn't surprise me too much anymore, Jehovah's Witness Groups have a pretty bad history of mistreating young women.

It does however amaze me that people can be brainwashed so badly that they go along with this stuff like it's normal.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on November 19, 2020, 01:19:07 PM
I didn't know Christ rode the bench.

 :D

It's a shame God decided to only grace Framm that day, instead of players of the other team.

I'm sure other players wanted to "represent Christ the best they could" too, but unlucky for them.

Better luck next time.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 20, 2020, 03:31:50 AM
:D

It's a shame God decided to only grace Framm that day, instead of players of the other team.

I'm sure other players wanted to "represent Christ the best they could" too, but unlucky for them.

Better luck next time.
Since most NFL players are christian how does Jesus pick who he will have win the game?  Hebrew coin flip?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 08, 2020, 11:06:41 PM
Since most NFL players are christian how does Jesus pick who he will have win the game?  Hebrew coin flip?

The truth is MOST Christians at least in the US have very little knowledge of the bible and it's teachings beyond what some person standing behind a lectern tells them. That is why you see FB memes or postings with "Type Amen and you'll receive a blessing" and it gets 30K responses. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on December 09, 2020, 04:16:19 AM
The truth is MOST Christians at least in the US have very little knowledge of the bible and it's teachings beyond what some person standing behind a lectern tells them. That is why you see FB memes or postings with "Type Amen and you'll receive a blessing" and it gets 30K responses.
I've never understood that.  If I am banking my whole eternity on something I want to know it inside and out.  But then again there are people who hire personal trainers to instruct them on stuff they can easily learn on their own.  We are way too specialized today and like Robert Heinlein said "specialization is for insects."
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 09, 2020, 08:35:47 PM
I've never understood that.  If I am banking my whole eternity on something I want to know it inside and out.  But then again there are people who hire personal trainers to instruct them on stuff they can easily learn on their own.  We are way too specialized today and like Robert Heinlein said "specialization is for insects."

You raise an excellent point I have tried to make myself over the years.

Ask people what books they have read in their life. Some avid readers have read every Tom Clancy, every Danielle Steele, Harold Robbins, Enid Blyton, Dean Koontz, Stephen King or Sidney Sheldon book ever written. Some, more than once.
   
Ask the ones that are Christian if they have bothered to read the bible one time cover to cover and you get silence.

Another way to look at it is if tomorrow an alien spaceship landed on the white house lawn and dropped off a manuscript of 800 pages I guarantee you within a month it would have been read and studied cover to cover..

Which brings me to my personal belief that most Christians really don't believe the bible is the word of god. It's comfort, its an insurance policy just in case, but they don't believe it's real enough to read it for themselves one time. That says a lot
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on December 10, 2020, 10:57:31 AM
You raise an excellent point I have tried to make myself over the years.

Ask people what books they have read in their life. Some avid readers have read every Tom Clancy, every Danielle Steele, Harold Robbins, Enid Blyton, Dean Koontz, Stephen King or Sidney Sheldon book ever written. Some, more than once.
   
Ask the ones that are Christian if they have bothered to read the bible one time cover to cover and you get silence.

Another way to look at it is if tomorrow an alien spaceship landed on the white house lawn and dropped off a manuscript of 800 pages I guarantee you within a month it would have been read and studied cover to cover..

Which brings me to my personal belief that most Christians really don't believe the bible is the word of god. It's comfort, its an insurance policy just in case, but they don't believe it's real enough to read it for themselves one time. That says a lot
When people tell me that they follow the Bible word for word it's always an interesting conversation.  I ask them if they practice polygamy, purchased their wife from their father in law, married a virgin and believe in stoning people to death if they cheat.  I also ask if they believe it is moral and just to take over a town and kill, rape and enslave the inhabitants all because they are a different religion.  Jacob and Joshua alone covered all of this in the Old Testament.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 10, 2020, 09:09:28 PM
When people tell me that they follow the Bible word for word it's always an interesting conversation.  I ask them if they practice polygamy, purchased their wife from their father in law, married a virgin and believe in stoning people to death if they cheat.  I also ask if they believe it is moral and just to take over a town and kill, rape and enslave the inhabitants all because they are a different religion.  Jacob and Joshua alone covered all of this in the Old Testament.

I've pointed out things in the bible that my Christian friends obviously weren't aware of. Instead of saying "Wow, I didn't know that, maybe I oughta read the bible for myself" Their response is usually "You don't even believe in the bible why are you trying to quote it?" Like that makes what I said go away...
'
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on December 11, 2020, 11:33:23 AM
People get to pick and choose what they follow in the Bible, that's the funniest thing to me.  There are a ton of things in the Bible that people ignore because it doesn't work for their lifestyle.

Very few people i know have actually read and studied the entire Bible like i did as a teenager. There is a lot of crazy random shit in there that no body talks about.  Things that are pretty ridiculous and contradict everything else we are taught.

Then you go to church on Sundays and it's the same teachings over and over and over. Most churches only cover about 10% of the Bible; the things that make people feel better about death and feel at peace.  They sing the same songs, study the same verses and tell the same stories. They have cherry picked the best parts to sell the story.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on December 11, 2020, 11:45:14 AM
They like to pick parts from the Old Testament along with the New.  There were over 600 commandments the Israelites were given that no body follows like, how many steps you can walk on the sabbath, not eating shellfish, not having sex with your wife when she's on the rag, etc.  These sins were punishable by death!  When someone talks about following all the commandments I bring this up.  The New Testament was a new law that completely goes against the Old but most Christians like to mix the two.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on December 11, 2020, 02:57:00 PM
People get to pick and choose what they follow in the Bible, that's the funniest thing to me.  There are a ton of things in the Bible that people ignore because it doesn't work for their lifestyle.

Very few people i know have actually read and studied the entire Bible like i did as a teenager. There is a lot of crazy random shit in there that no body talks about.  Things that are pretty ridiculous and contradict everything else we are taught.

Then you go to church on Sundays and it's the same teachings over and over and over. Most churches only cover about 10% of the Bible; the things that make people feel better about death and feel at peace.  They sing the same songs, study the same verses and tell the same stories. They have cherry picked the best parts to sell the story.

exactly. There are people who have attended church for 50 years that have probably only heard 20% of it
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on December 11, 2020, 09:32:45 PM
They like to pick parts from the Old Testament along with the New.  There were over 600 commandments the Israelites were given that no body follows like, how many steps you can walk on the sabbath, not eating shellfish, not having sex with your wife when she's on the rag, etc.  These sins were punishable by death!  When someone talks about following all the commandments I bring this up.  The New Testament was a new law that completely goes against the Old but most Christians like to mix the two.

jerking off altar boys, finger banging nuns, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on December 12, 2020, 04:51:03 AM
jerking off altar boys, finger banging nuns, etc. etc.
That was not in either Testaments.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 04, 2021, 11:12:28 PM
Since most NFL players are christian how does Jesus pick who he will have win the game?  Hebrew coin flip?

I've always maintained that NFL players should drop to a knee and pray when they fumble, drop a pass, thrown an INT, etc. and not whey they score TDs.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 04, 2021, 11:13:03 PM
The truth is MOST Christians at least in the US have very little knowledge of the bible and it's teachings beyond what some person standing behind a lectern tells them. That is why you see FB memes or postings with "Type Amen and you'll receive a blessing" and it gets 30K responses.

 ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 07, 2021, 01:27:39 PM
Biden’s National Day of Prayer proclamation makes no mention of God — but it does talk about racial justice and climate change
SARAH TAYLOR
May 07, 2021   

President Joe Biden's Thursday National Day of Prayer proclamation omitted any mention of God.

It did, however, discuss racial justice and climate change.

What are the details?
Biden's proclamation, issued on Thursday, addressed the power of prayer.

"Throughout our history, Americans of many religions and belief systems have turned to prayer for strength, hope, and guidance," the proclamation began. "Prayer has nourished countless souls and powered moral movements — including essential fights against racial injustice, child labor, and infringement on the rights of disabled Americans. Prayer is also a daily practice for many, whether it is to ask for help or strength, or to give thanks over blessings bestowed."

The president pointed out that the First Amendment protects "the rights of free speech and religious liberty," thus protecting the right of all Americans to pray.

"These freedoms have helped us to create and sustain a Nation of remarkable religious vitality and diversity across the generations," the proclamation added.

Lauding the "healing balm of prayer," Biden added, "As we continue to confront the crises and challenges of our time — from a deadly pandemic, to the loss of lives and livelihoods in its wake, to a reckoning on racial justice, to the existential threat of climate change — Americans of faith can call upon the power of prayer to provide hope and uplift us for the work ahead."

Anything else?
A portion of former President Donald Trump's 2018 proclamation read, "On this National Day of Prayer, let us come together, all according to their faiths, to thank God for His many blessings and ask for His continued guidance and strength."

A portion of former President Barack Obama's 2015 proclamation read, "Through prayer we find the strength to do God's work." A portion of his 2010 proclamation read, "On this day, let us give thanks for the many blessings God has bestowed upon our Nation."

A portion of former President George W. Bush's 2003 proclamation read, "We come together to thank God for our Nation's many blessings, to acknowledge our need for His wisdom and grace, and to ask Him to continue to watch over our country in the days ahead."

A portion of former President Bill Clinton's 1995 proclamation read, "Let us not forget those painful lessons of our past, but continue to seek the guidance of God in all the affairs of our Nation."

A portion of former President George H.W. Bush's 1991 proclamation read, "As one Nation under God, we Americans are deeply mindful of both our dependence on the Almighty and our obligations as a people He has richly blessed."

A portion of former President Ronald Reagan's 1987 proclamation suggested Americans "turn our faces and our hearts to God not only at moments of personal danger and civil strife, but in the full flower of the liberty, peace, and abundance that He has showered upon us."

A portion of former President Jimmy Carter's 1979 proclamation read, "We endure and remain a land of hope because of the basic goodness and strength of our people and because the God of us all has shown us His favor."

A portion of former President Gerald Ford's 1976 proclamation, issued during the nation's bicentennial celebration, read, "Let us also reflect on the profound faith in God which inspired the founding fathers."

A portion of former President Richard Nixon's 1973 proclamation read, "America is a nation under God."

A portion of former President Lyndon B. Johnson's 1967 proclamation read, "Let each of us pray that God will endow us with the constancy to prevail in defense of freedom, and with the courage and resolution to preserve and extend His blessings of liberty."

A portion of former President John F. Kennedy's 1962 proclamation read, "May we especially ask God's blessing upon our homes, that this integral unit of society may nurture our youth and give to them the needed faith in God, in our Nation, and in their future."

A portion of former President Dwight D. Eisenhower's 1959 proclamation read, "Let us remember that our God is the God of all men, that only as all men are free can liberty be secure for any, and that only as all prosper can any be content in their good fortune."

A portion of former President Harry Truman's 1952 proclamation suggested Americans "beseech God to grant us wisdom to know the course which we should follow."

https://www.theblaze.com/news/biden-national-day-of-prayer-omits-god
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 09, 2021, 10:14:03 PM
"It should be noted, however, that Biden did mention the word “Lord” in his May 2021 National Day of Prayer proclamation. At the end, Biden writes that this proclamation was signed in “the year of our Lord two thousand twenty-one.” It should also be noted that Biden mentioned the word “God” in a video message commemorating the National Day of Prayer.

Biden said: “By the grace of God and the extraordinary work of researches and scientists, we have vaccines that have proven to be safe and effective … Thank you for your prayers and may God Bless you and all those you love and are concerned about on this day and every day.”

Not that I care either way.... kinda goes without saying when you're talking about a national day of prayer that you are praying to something..
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 10, 2021, 03:20:14 PM
"It should be noted, however, that Biden did mention the word “Lord” in his May 2021 National Day of Prayer proclamation. At the end, Biden writes that this proclamation was signed in “the year of our Lord two thousand twenty-one.” It should also be noted that Biden mentioned the word “God” in a video message commemorating the National Day of Prayer.

Biden said: “By the grace of God and the extraordinary work of researches and scientists, we have vaccines that have proven to be safe and effective … Thank you for your prayers and may God Bless you and all those you love and are concerned about on this day and every day.”

Not that I care either way.... kinda goes without saying when you're talking about a national day of prayer that you are praying to something..

I think the overall point is Biden trying to de-emphasize God.  Same as Obama.  For example, I think the reason Biden couldn't say the line from the Declaration of Independence (where he said "you know the thing") was because he didn't want to say the "endowed by their Creator" line, but couldn't think fast enough to come up with alternative words.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ."

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 10, 2021, 08:29:51 PM
I think the overall point is Biden trying to de-emphasize God.  Same as Obama.  For example, I think the reason Biden couldn't say the line from the Declaration of Independence (where he said "you know the thing") was because he didn't want to say the "endowed by their Creator" line, but couldn't think fast enough to come up with alternative words.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ."



cool.. de emphasizing a ridiculous belief in a supernatural being is not a bad thing for critically thinking adults..
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 10, 2021, 11:57:48 PM
cool.. de emphasizing a ridiculous belief in a supernatural being is not a bad thing for critically thinking adults..

Believing in nothing and ridiculing people of faith doesn't require much critical thinking.  It's boring.  Contemplating a higher intelligent life, faith, and study requires a great deal of critical thinking.  Much more interesting. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 11, 2021, 09:59:43 AM
Believing in nothing and ridiculing people of faith doesn't require much critical thinking.  It's boring.  Contemplating a higher intelligent life, faith, and study requires a great deal of critical thinking.  Much more interesting.
Good point.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 11, 2021, 12:06:46 PM
I think the overall point is Biden trying to de-emphasize God.  Same as Obama.  For example, I think the reason Biden couldn't say the line from the Declaration of Independence (where he said "you know the thing") was because he didn't want to say the "endowed by their Creator" line, but couldn't think fast enough to come up with alternative words.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . . ."



Someone could say this about Obama but with Biden you have a bumbling dolt with a 50 year political career full of foot-in-mouth moments who, at this stage in his life, is also senile. While it's possible that Biden was attempting to "de-emphasize" god, I think it's more plausible that he's just senile or cognitively declining:



Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 11, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
Contemplating a higher intelligent life, faith, and study requires a great deal of critical thinking.  Much more interesting.

From a philosophical point of view sure, but using religion to control how people think and live their daily life doesn't require critical thinking.

It's perfectly fine for an intelligent person to not believe in religion and focus on more important matters in life. Take Elon Musk for example.  Look at what he has done, it's unreal.

If we left religion behind and focused on a science based lifestyle, our society would be a much better place and we would be far more advanced than we are today.

That's a pretty critical point IMO.

Imagine all the time and money people waste on religion; take that money and effort, put it towards advancing technology and mental wellbeing. This world would be far better off without all the fake gods.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 11, 2021, 03:34:16 PM
Good point.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 11, 2021, 03:36:29 PM
Someone could say this about Obama but with Biden you have a bumbling dolt with a 50 year political career full of foot-in-mouth moments who, at this stage in his life, is also senile. While it's possible that Biden was attempting to "de-emphasize" god, I think it's more plausible that he's just senile or cognitively declining:



Man those are just painful to watch. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 11, 2021, 03:44:36 PM
From a philosophical point of view sure, but using religion to control how people think and live their daily life doesn't require critical thinking.

It's perfectly fine for an intelligent person to not believe in religion and focus on more important matters in life. Take Elon Musk for example.  Look at what he has done, it's unreal.

If we left religion behind and focused on a science based lifestyle, our society would be a much better place and we would be far more advanced than we are today.

That's a pretty critical point IMO.

Imagine all the time and money people waste on religion; take that money and effort, put it towards advancing technology and mental wellbeing. This world would be far better off without all the fake gods.

That's one way to look it at. 

For me, I don't think it has to be either faith or science.  They compliment each other.  In fact, I've had numerous discussions and disagreements with people on this board over one of my central viewpoints:  faith is a part of science.  There are things that cannot be scientifically proved, but that are accepted on faith.  People don't call it faith, but that's effectively what it is.  Like the origins of life on earth.  Whatever theory you accept, it is a faith-based theory.

I was just talking to one of my running buddies the other day who asked me why I go to church.  I told him it's not for the sermons, because I've been in church my entire life and I've probably heard every sermon known to man, twice.  It's not for the people, because if I put my faith in people I would have left the church a long time ago.  It's really to keep me grounded.  To keep me humble.  To be thankful.  To have an hour or so of peace and happiness.  I told him that organized religion is great.  It's no different than our political system, legal system, etc. that are terrific on paper.  It's the people who screw it up.   

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 11, 2021, 04:11:52 PM
That's one way to look it at. 

For me, I don't think it has to be either faith or science.  They compliment each other.  In fact, I've had numerous discussions and disagreements with people on this board over one of my central viewpoints:  faith is a part of science.  There are things that cannot be scientifically proved, but that are accepted on faith.  People don't call it faith, but that's effectively what it is.  Like the origins of life on earth.  Whatever theory you accept, it is a faith-based theory.

I was just talking to one of my running buddies the other day who asked me why I go to church.  I told him it's not for the sermons, because I've been in church my entire life and I've probably heard every sermon known to man, twice.  It's not for the people, because if I put my faith in people I would have left the church a long time ago.  It's really to keep me grounded.  To keep me humble.  To be thankful.  To have an hour or so of peace and happiness.  I told him that organized religion is great.  It's no different than our political system, legal system, etc. that are terrific on paper.  It's the people who screw it up.   

I agree to a certain extent. However religion has never lived up to the scientific method of critical thinking, it is entirely based on faith. Which is fine i guess. I just have a hard time believing in things that are not real. In Science we do have hypothesis, but we also have "Assumptions", so i can see how someone could consider faith a part of that. I've never really thought of it like that, but that's a fair point. However in Science i can measure and draw conclusions based on facts that are derived from "faith" or "assumptions", so it is not the same for me personally. As you cannot measure religion other than what the Bible tells you. It hasn't changed for a reason, it is not dynamic.

Religion does give people hope and removes the fear of death or of losing a loved one. That's why i generally don't have a problem with it. It is a good method to control people and keep them docile. This planet would be very different if the majority of the people did not fear God(s).

But i have also seen so many people use religion as a weapon to ruin lives, start wars, steal money and manipulate people; it's hard for me to take it seriously. Too much hypocrisy in religion IMO. Do as i say, not as i do.

I went to church twice a week for 18 years, i've read the Bible cover to cover three times. It's not something i consider real, it's full of great stories, but my mind cannot accept these stories any more than urban myths or tall tales like John Henry the Hammer Man.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 11, 2021, 04:37:58 PM
I agree to a certain extent. However religion has never lived up to the scientific method of critical thinking, it is entirely based on faith. Which is fine i guess. I just have a hard time believing in things that are not real. In Science we do have hypothesis, but we also have "Assumptions", so i can see how someone could consider faith a part of that. I've never really thought of it like that, but that's a fair point. However in Science i can measure and draw conclusions based on facts that are derived from "faith" or "assumptions", so it is not the same for me personally. As you cannot measure religion other than what the Bible tells you. It hasn't changed for a reason, it is not dynamic.

Religion does give people hope and removes the fear of death or of losing a loved one. That's why i generally don't have a problem with it. It is a good method to control people and keep them docile. This planet would be very different if the majority of the people did not fear God(s).

But i have also seen so many people use religion as a weapon to ruin lives, start wars, steal money and manipulate people; it's hard for me to take it seriously. Too much hypocrisy in religion IMO. Do as i say, not as i do.

I went to church twice a week for 18 years, i've read the Bible cover to cover three times. It's not something i consider real, it's full of great stories, but my mind cannot accept these stories any more than urban myths or tall tales like John Henry the Hammer Man.

I understand where you're coming from.  I was having a discussion with someone the other day about a specific part of the Bible that tells people not to be a stumbling block for others.  That's a direct message to people who are partly responsible for causing people to walk away from their faith.  It happens.  A lot.  Still, that is a problem with people, not faith. 

Also important to keep in mind that the Bible is not a science book.  It does have a bunch of stories, parables, commands, recommendations, etc.  There are historical facts and persons that are historically accurate, but I don't consider it a science book at all. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 12, 2021, 03:08:33 AM
From a philosophical point of view sure, but using religion to control how people think and live their daily life doesn't require critical thinking.

It's perfectly fine for an intelligent person to not believe in religion and focus on more important matters in life. Take Elon Musk for example.  Look at what he has done, it's unreal.

If we left religion behind and focused on a science based lifestyle, our society would be a much better place and we would be far more advanced than we are today.

That's a pretty critical point IMO.

Imagine all the time and money people waste on religion; take that money and effort, put it towards advancing technology and mental wellbeing. This world would be far better off without all the fake gods.
It's not an either/or choice.  It can be either/and.  Science does not solve philosophical questions.  A person can be spiritual without belonging to a religion.  Religion is the Kindergarten of spirituality.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 12, 2021, 08:04:23 PM
It's not an either/or choice.  It can be either/and.  Science does not solve philosophical questions.  A person can be spiritual without belonging to a religion.  Religion is the Kindergarten of spirituality.

explain the difference between your spirituality and say an evangelical Christian.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 13, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
explain the difference between your spirituality and say an evangelical Christian.
There are people who believe in an afterlife but don't believe in a monotheistic god or any belief in the Bible being relevant at all.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 13, 2021, 04:42:06 PM
It's not an either/or choice.  It can be either/and.  Science does not solve philosophical questions.  A person can be spiritual without belonging to a religion.  Religion is the Kindergarten of spirituality.

Good points, i can agree with that.

I know a lot of spiritual people that are harmless and just go about their lives. A lot of Buddhists are like that.

It's the main stream religious nut jobs i see rambling on a daily basis that annoy me, oh and frauds like Olsteen.  ;D

I personally cannot blend the two, science and religion are oil and water to me, but i can see how some people can blend them.

At the end of the day if people are happy and not harming other people, i could care less what they believe. They just need to keep it to themselves.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 16, 2021, 08:54:11 PM
Good points, i can agree with that.

I know a lot of spiritual people that are harmless and just go about their lives. A lot of Buddhists are like that.

It's the main stream religious nut jobs i see rambling on a daily basis that annoy me, oh and frauds like Olsteen.  ;D

I personally cannot blend the two, science and religion are oil and water to me, but i can see how some people can blend them.

At the end of the day if people are happy and not harming other people, i could care less what they believe. They just need to keep it to themselves.


This in a nutshell works for me
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 18, 2021, 11:54:41 AM
Good points, i can agree with that.

I know a lot of spiritual people that are harmless and just go about their lives. A lot of Buddhists are like that.

It's the main stream religious nut jobs i see rambling on a daily basis that annoy me, oh and frauds like Olsteen.  ;D

I personally cannot blend the two, science and religion are oil and water to me, but i can see how some people can blend them.

At the end of the day if people are happy and not harming other people, i could care less what they believe. They just need to keep it to themselves.

Why?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 18, 2021, 03:01:32 PM
Why?

I don't believe religion should be discussed openly in public. Unless you are amongst friends, sure.

Inside your own home sure. Not it schools, not at sports games, etc.

But trying to brainwash people walking down the street with your little pamphlets and/or megaphone is retarded.

And the assholes who knock on my door at 9am on Sat/Sun.

Religion is a personal choice, i don't believe it should be a part of public life.

I've had hundreds of people follow me around, trying to make me feel bad.

A church down the street has a sign out front, it says "Good mothers follow the word of God". That's shameful. Brainwashing nonsense. Trying to make people feel bad. They put this up a couple weeks before Mother's Day. The donation plate must be low.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 18, 2021, 05:41:06 PM
I don't believe religion should be discussed openly in public. Unless you are amongst friends, sure.

Inside your own home sure. Not it schools, not at sports games, etc.

But trying to brainwash people walking down the street with your little pamphlets and/or megaphone is retarded.

And the assholes who knock on my door at 9am on Sat/Sun.

Religion is a personal choice, i don't believe it should be a part of public life.

I've had hundreds of people follow me around, trying to make me feel bad.

A church down the street has a sign out front, it says "Good mothers follow the word of God". That's shameful. Brainwashing nonsense. Trying to make people feel bad. They put this up a couple weeks before Mother's Day. The donation plate must be low.

Do you feel this way about all offensive or annoying speech or just religious speech? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 18, 2021, 08:00:00 PM
Do you feel this way about all offensive or annoying speech or just religious speech?

ok... lets take a high school football game. Would YOU be ok with the local liberal Mayor getting 3 min before the game to extoll their political opinions and affirmations on the crowd who came to watch their kids play football? Just a 2 or 3 min window where the liberal politician has the opportunity to spout whatever ideology they believe in as a pre game tradition? I think not... so just convert what I said over to a Christian prayer pre game and let it sink in
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 18, 2021, 11:33:51 PM
ok... lets take a high school football game. Would YOU be ok with the local liberal Mayor getting 3 min before the game to extoll their political opinions and affirmations on the crowd who came to watch their kids play football? Just a 2 or 3 min window where the liberal politician has the opportunity to spout whatever ideology they believe in as a pre game tradition? I think not... so just convert what I said over to a Christian prayer pre game and let it sink in

No, but that's a terrible example because there is no tradition of political figures giving 3 minute pregame speeches at sporting events. 

Still, what I wouldn't do is try prevent that person from saying his piece.  I would just tune them out, like I do whenever I see National Anthem protests.  I don't watch them.  In fact, I do that with any speech or expression that irritates me.  I ignore it, but I do not try and censor it. 

It's always interesting to see how atheists are so bothered by something they do not believe exists. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 19, 2021, 02:25:25 AM
No, but that's a terrible example because there is no tradition of political figures giving 3 minute pregame speeches at sporting events. 

Still, what I wouldn't do is try prevent that person from saying his piece.  I would just tune them out, like I do whenever I see National Anthem protests.  I don't watch them.  In fact, I do that with any speech or expression that irritates me.  I ignore it, but I do not try and censor it. 

It's always interesting to see how atheists are so bothered by something they do not believe exists.
Most atheists are determined to never be fooled.  It starts in childhood believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.  After it is revealed to them that their parents and other adults were lying to them they get very scarred from the experience and vow to never let it happen again.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 19, 2021, 10:22:11 AM
Most atheists are determined to never be fooled.  It starts in childhood believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.  After it is revealed to them that their parents and other adults were lying to them they get very scarred from the experience and vow to never let it happen again.

I'm sure that's true of some.  I also think a lot of atheists are former believers who experienced hardship and became nonbelievers because they were angry or frustrated. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 19, 2021, 05:49:23 PM
I'm sure that's true of some.  I also think a lot of atheists are former believers who experienced hardship and became nonbelievers because they were angry or frustrated.

Pretty popular view of atheists from non atheists. It somehow makes the believer feel better about themselves and their belief if they can attribute the lack of belief to some failure of faith or tenacity of the atheist rather than it being that they took a good hard objective look at the information and found it lacking. I get that
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 19, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
Pretty popular view of atheists from non atheists. It somehow makes the believer feel better about themselves and their belief if they can attribute the lack of belief to some failure of faith or tenacity of the atheist rather than it being that they took a good hard objective look at the information and found it lacking. I get that

Actually atheists such as yourself, are to be frank, assholes.  Try being an Atheist, instead of an assholist.  Try not being a total twat, oh most holy "law enfarcement officer". 

Me?  I respect the Nazarene and his teachings and save my disgust for such as you and smellivangelists like Osteen.  Did you get that? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 19, 2021, 06:36:08 PM
Pretty popular view of atheists from non atheists. It somehow makes the believer feel better about themselves and their belief if they can attribute the lack of belief to some failure of faith or tenacity of the atheist rather than it being that they took a good hard objective look at the information and found it lacking. I get that

I don't need to have any opinion about atheists to feel better about myself.  I feel marvelous.  Very comfortable with what I believe and don't believe.  And here is the kicker:  I never obsess over, get upset by, or spend time arguing about things that I don't believe exist.  People like you, on the other hand, your entire existence is grounded on the non-belief in something.  It's crazy. 

You come on here arguing about God and quoting the Bible, denigrating people of faith, when you don't believe God exists or that the Bible contains any truths or historical facts.  Pretty clear you have some unresolved issues over your prior faith. 

But I'm glad people like you have a place like this where they stay connected to matters of faith.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 19, 2021, 10:47:52 PM
I don't need to have any opinion about atheists to feel better about myself.  I feel marvelous.  Very comfortable with what I believe and don't believe.  And here is the kicker:  I never obsess over, get upset by, or spend time arguing about things that I don't believe exist.  People like you, on the other hand, your entire existence is grounded on the non-belief in something.  It's crazy. 

You come on here arguing about God and quoting the Bible, denigrating people of faith, when you don't believe God exists or that the Bible contains any truths or historical facts.  Pretty clear you have some unresolved issues over your prior faith. 

But I'm glad people like you have a place like this where they stay connected to matters of faith.

You're entire post was a fabrication. Nice job
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 19, 2021, 11:13:38 PM
Actually atheists such as yourself, are to be frank, assholes.  Try being an Atheist, instead of an assholist.  Try not being a total twat, oh most holy "law enfarcement officer". 

Me?  I respect the Nazarene and his teachings and save my disgust for such as you and smellivangelists like Osteen.  Did you get that?

Don't recall asking you...but thanks for sharing once again your love for the Nazarene...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 20, 2021, 12:18:17 PM
You're entire post was a fabrication. Nice job

You're such a troll.  lol
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 21, 2021, 04:03:44 PM
Don't recall asking you...but thanks for sharing once again your love for the Nazarene...

As if libs could recall anything.  Fuck off cuntlette.  I hope you Covid up.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 21, 2021, 06:52:43 PM
As if libs could recall anything.  Fuck off cuntlette.  I hope you Covid up.

That is not very nice talk.  In times like these (if I may) ask yourself WWTND?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Primemuscle on May 21, 2021, 07:04:50 PM
I don't believe religion should be discussed openly in public. Unless you are amongst friends, sure.

Inside your own home sure. Not it schools, not at sports games, etc.

But trying to brainwash people walking down the street with your little pamphlets and/or megaphone is retarded.

And the assholes who knock on my door at 9am on Sat/Sun.

Religion is a personal choice, i don't believe it should be a part of public life.

I've had hundreds of people follow me around, trying to make me feel bad.

A church down the street has a sign out front, it says "Good mothers follow the word of God". That's shameful. Brainwashing nonsense. Trying to make people feel bad. They put this up a couple weeks before Mother's Day. The donation plate must be low.

I couldn't have said this better. Specially that religion is a personal choice.

For some reason, I haven't experienced hundreds of people following me around trying to make me feel bad.....just one and he posts on Getbig.  ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 21, 2021, 09:18:54 PM
That is not very nice talk.  In times like these (if I may) ask yourself WWTND?

I don't have to be nice.  I don't want to be nice.  I don't like certain kinds of people and refuse to be "civil" to a whole ass.  Now then, my friend...Why would you give a shit as you clearly do not believe nor hold the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth in high regard? 

I do not believe and this makes me the perfect foil for fuckwits here and in the real world.  I used to call out "pastors, ministers and priests" but no more.  I do not go into churches at all.  I was not welcome when I exposed the whited sepulchers and would be even less so now.  Most atheists are assholists.  For example, they will not belittle mooslimes in person.  I have done so because they're the scum of the planet when it comes to bullshit.  I have told them hoMohammed is a pedophile and worse.  I am far from imposing but crazy works pretty good when it comes to primitive desert chimps.  ;D

If you explain that if attacked by them, I may well be taken down but at least one of them, the one pretending to be a "leader" is going to go through life dickless and worse they will think before they move.  I will go Josey Wales on 'em, i.e., MEAN.  I have experienced being attacked by a gang of blacks and a gang of whites.  They thought it funny to beat up the "slow" kid.  I didn't tear their dick off but the two I got in each instance never EVER gave me so much as a single word again and I would see them in school.  I fucked them up before I was overcome.   I  hate bullies.

Liberals are the biggest fucking "bullies" on the planet.  And they come in all different shades and usually in herds.  ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 21, 2021, 09:21:12 PM
As if libs could recall anything.  Fuck off cuntlette.  I hope you Covid up.

I want to apologize. I try to limit my response  comments to people who contribute to to a conversation on average. Everyone has those days when they jump in and their responses are ridiculously stupid or inane. I overlook those which is why I still sometimes respond to Chaos and Dos Equis. But I broke the rule when I responded to you and for that I apologize. If I gave the impression your posts grab my attention or mean anything in the least, I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 21, 2021, 09:24:34 PM
I want to apologize. I try to limit my response  comments to people who contribute to to a conversation on average. Everyone has those days when they jump in and their responses are ridiculously stupid or inane. I overlook those which is why I still sometimes respond to Chaos and Dos Equis. But I broke the rule when I responded to you and for that I apologize. If I gave the impression your posts grab my attention or mean anything in the least, I'm sorry.

Pathetic.  You are like a bodybuilder eating and eating and eating.  Full of crap.  Go apologize to someone that believes your trite BS.  You mean nothing to anyone here. You feel you are better than some because they have a faith you despise.  Fuck off, man.  I don't believe but I don't belittle that which at it's core is good. Oh...By that I mean the teachings of the Nazarene.

Fuck off you Law ENFARCEMENT Officer. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 21, 2021, 09:53:43 PM
I don't have to be nice.  I don't want to be nice.  I don't like certain kinds of people and refuse to be "civil" to a whole ass.  Now then, my friend...Why would you give a shit as you clearly do not believe nor hold the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth in high regard

I do not believe and this makes me the perfect foil for fuckwits here and in the real world.  I used to call out "pastors, ministers and priests" but no more.  I do not go into churches at all.  I was not welcome when I exposed the whited sepulchers and would be even less so now.  Most atheists are assholists.  For example, they will not belittle mooslimes in person.  I have done so because they're the scum of the planet when it comes to bullshit.  I have told them hoMohammed is a pedophile and worse.  I am far from imposing but crazy works pretty good when it comes to primitive desert chimps.  ;D

If you explain that if attacked by them, I may well be taken down but at least one of them, the one pretending to be a "leader" is going to go through life dickless and worse they will think before they move.  I will go Josey Wales on 'em, i.e., MEAN.  I have experienced being attacked by a gang of blacks and a gang of whites.  They thought it funny to beat up the "slow" kid.  I didn't tear their dick off but the two I got in each instance never EVER gave me so much as a single word again and I would see them in school.  I fucked them up before I was overcome.   I  hate bullies.

Liberals are the biggest fucking "bullies" on the planet.  And they come in all different shades and usually in herds.  ;D

My friend Scott, I take a little bit of offense to what I emboldened in red.  First, I believe that there was a man a couple thousand years ago that existed who we now know as Jesus Christ, the Nazarene, Jesus of Nazareth, etc.  Next, I absolutely believe he was a force for good and change in the world.  Finally, the Sermon on the Mount and/or the Beatitudes is as fine a guide for living ones life and treating others as has ever been put to paper.  Even if Jesus never existed, the idea of Jesus and his words/message is a beautiful thing.  If only more Christians would focus on those teachings we could see a better world.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 22, 2021, 07:39:24 AM
My friend Scott, I take a little bit of offense to what I emboldened in red.  First, I believe that there was a man a couple thousand years ago that existed who we now know as Jesus Christ, the Nazarene, Jesus of Nazareth, etc.  Next, I absolutely believe he was a force for good and change in the world.  Finally, the Sermon on the Mount and/or the Beatitudes is as fine a guide for living ones life and treating others as has ever been put to paper.  Even if Jesus never existed, the idea of Jesus and his words/message is a beautiful thing.  If only more Christians would focus on those teachings we could see a better world.

I am rarely offended here or in the real world.  Disgusted?  Yes. 

Some people feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeel they can belittle the Nazarene but fail to do so to the profit hoMohammed.  The latter was a degenerate asshole that was pissed that the Jews said the age of prophets was over and so, like other two legged dildos such as Joseph Smith of the Morons (Latter Day Taints) started his own bullshit based loosely on Judaism and Christianity.

Without the genuine existence of the Christ, there would be no Christianity.  Christians should focus on the Nazarene but, assholes like the one I berated are forever trying to belittle them and even when I had my faith I bitch slapped them, albeit not quite so firmly and with nowhere near the language.

They deserve to be put in their place. I would prefer that place to be muslime lands where they can be buggered to death by those they seem to idolize.  Alas, they only make fun of those that turn the other cheek and in secret want to spread their own cheeks before silicon negroes.  These fuckers here are the very definition of slack-jawed-phaggots.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 22, 2021, 04:54:11 PM
Do you feel this way about all offensive or annoying speech or just religious speech?

Both.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 22, 2021, 04:58:51 PM
I'm sure that's true of some.  I also think a lot of atheists are former believers who experienced hardship and became nonbelievers because they were angry or frustrated.

I'm agnostic.

I grew up in a very religious family. Went to church and bible study for 18 years. I've studied every aspect of Christianity.

For me it was all the fake stories and lack of evidence that secured my agnostic status.

I've never really been frustrated by religion except when people tried to force it down my throat.

The older i get and the more educated i've gotten on science and history, i simply cannot believe the bible is anything but a bunch of interesting stories.

Just think, all these amazing things happen for thousands of years and then they just stopped. Nothing biblical happened after they issued the bible.

Also, the bible was edited by kings and released in a final version to stimulate people.

Doesn't work for me, i'm not the smartest person on the planet but it defies all logic and science.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 23, 2021, 09:00:01 PM
I'm agnostic.

I grew up in a very religious family. Went to church and bible study for 18 years. I've studied every aspect of Christianity.

For me it was all the fake stories and lack of evidence that secured my agnostic status.

I've never really been frustrated by religion except when people tried to force it down my throat.

The older i get and the more educated i've gotten on science and history, i simply cannot believe the bible is anything but a bunch of interesting stories.

Just think, all these amazing things happen for thousands of years and then they just stopped. Nothing biblical happened after they issued the bible.

Also, the bible was edited by kings and released in a final version to stimulate people.

Doesn't work for me, i'm not the smartest person on the planet but it defies all logic and science.

Pretty much the same here. I try to only believe things that are likely true, and resist believing things because I want them to be or hope they are. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 26, 2021, 06:47:45 PM
I'm agnostic.

I grew up in a very religious family. Went to church and bible study for 18 years. I've studied every aspect of Christianity.

For me it was all the fake stories and lack of evidence that secured my agnostic status.

I've never really been frustrated by religion except when people tried to force it down my throat.

The older i get and the more educated i've gotten on science and history, i simply cannot believe the bible is anything but a bunch of interesting stories.

Just think, all these amazing things happen for thousands of years and then they just stopped. Nothing biblical happened after they issued the bible.

Also, the bible was edited by kings and released in a final version to stimulate people.

Doesn't work for me, i'm not the smartest person on the planet but it defies all logic and science.

I guess it partly depends on your perspective.  The Bible isn't a science book, so if someone is trying to view it as such they are going to get frustrated. 

In terms of stories, there are a lot of parables, which are by definition not factual.  But there are a lot of historical facts in the Bible.  You have to separate fact from story telling.

I don't have a problem with parents forcing their kids to be whatever religion they want as minors, but as adults, no one really forces anything on us.  We don't have to participate in church services, read the  Bible, etc.  It's all a choice.  I never get offended when someone talks about their faith (or lack of faith).  I've mentioned this before, but I've participated in all kinds of prayers from different religions and I do so respectfully.  It would be weird if I got offended by Buddha, when I don't believe Buddha exists.  I leave that kind of weirdness to some atheists (not talking about you).   :) 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 26, 2021, 06:53:27 PM
I guess it partly depends on your perspective.  The Bible isn't a science book, so if someone is trying to view it as such they are going to get frustrated. 

In terms of stories, there are a lot of parables, which are by definition not factual.  But there are a lot of historical facts in the Bible.  You have to separate fact from story telling.

I don't have a problem with parents forcing their kids to be whatever religion they want as minors, but as adults, no one really forces anything on us.  We don't have to participate in church services, read the  Bible, etc.  It's all a choice.  I never get offended when someone talks about their faith (or lack of faith).  I've mentioned this before, but I've participated in all kinds of prayers from different religions and I do so respectfully.  It would be weird if I got offended by Buddha, when I don't believe Buddha exists.  I leave that kind of weirdness to some atheists (not talking about you).   :)

Respectfully, would you mind pointing out some of the historical facts in the Bible?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 26, 2021, 07:07:58 PM
Respectfully, would you mind pointing out some of the historical facts in the Bible?

The existence of the Apostle Peter and thereby the Christ are verified by the execution of Peter by Emperor Nero.  Who in their right mind would ask to be crucified upside down for a lie.  No one really.  Crucifixion is not a comfy way to die and I seriously doubt Peter was insane. He knew the Nazarene personally.  Walked with him, ate with him and witnessed his wisdom.

Others were also murdered by Rome for their faith and it has been documented in ancient texts.  I am NOT going to look them up and quote them for that fuckwit Agnoshitz007 but I have read them and while I have not read the actual original texts (I can barely read English, LOL!), I think that the ancient scholars and historians had no reason to lie.

Faith is just that.  FAITH.  Ask a modern day Smellivangelist to give  his life for the Nazarene and he will profess he would do so at the drop of a hat but then in the same breath say that hats are not allowed in his "church".

Just a thought.  If Peter died for something real...I am in trouble. But so too are assholes like the aforementioned Law Enfarcement Officer and Prime, Straw and many more.  I've been dead. Didn't see or hear anything as I don't recall anything but being back and alive.

I used to think that all this earth could not have been by chance. But then I looked at Chicago and all of isllime and said, what kind of intelligent being would allow that shit to go on?  The result was no more faith.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 26, 2021, 07:13:46 PM
Respectfully, would you mind pointing out some of the historical facts in the Bible?

Seriously bro?  Cities mentioned in the Bible.  Kings and other figures mentioned in the Bible.  Ethnic groups.  Wars.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 26, 2021, 07:14:43 PM
The existence of the Apostle Peter and thereby the Christ are verified by the execution of Peter by Emperor Nero.  Who in their right mind would ask to be crucified upside down for a lie.  No one really.  Crucifixion is not a comfy way to die and I seriously doubt Peter was insane. He knew the Nazarene personally.  Walked with him, ate with him and witnessed his wisdom.

Others were also murdered by Rome for their faith and it has been documented in ancient texts.  I am NOT going to look them up and quote them for that fuckwit Agnoshitz007 but I have read them and while I have not read the actual original texts (I can barely read English, LOL!), I think that the ancient scholars and historians had no reason to lie.

Faith is just that.  FAITH.  Ask a modern day Smellivangelist to give  his life for the Nazarene and he will profess he would do so at the drop of a hat but then in the same breath say that hats are not allowed in his "church".

Just a thought.  If Peter died for something real...I am in trouble. But so too are assholes like the aforementioned Law Enfarcement Officer and Prime, Straw and many more.  I've been dead. Didn't see or hear anything as I don't recall anything but being back and alive.

I used to think that all this earth could not have been by chance. But then I looked at Chicago and all of isllime and said, what kind of intelligent being would allow that shit to go on?  The result was no more faith.

Yeah.  This. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 26, 2021, 07:53:34 PM
Seriously bro?  Cities mentioned in the Bible.  Kings and other figures mentioned in the Bible.  Ethnic groups.  Wars.

Wasn't being a prick. Jerusalem is a city that's mentioned in the Bible. Yes, that is a fact. But, I was looking for a fact based story or something of that ilk.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 26, 2021, 09:07:35 PM
Wasn't being a prick. Jerusalem is a city that's mentioned in the Bible. Yes, that is a fact. But, I was looking for a fact based story or something of that ilk.

I don't think anyone can prove or disprove entire narrative stories, but there is evidence that a lot of those figures existed.  King David is one.

https://aleteia.org/2018/05/02/archaeologists-discover-evidence-that-may-prove-biblical-king-david-existed/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 26, 2021, 10:02:49 PM
Respectfully, would you mind pointing out some of the historical facts in the Bible?

It's a fair question. And like even agreed upon fictional novels, they may contain some historical facts. Even Avengers movies battle scenes  occur in real cities, contain automobiles that actually exists, but that doesn't make them any more realistic. When it comes to supporting the supernatural claims in the bible, historians are completely silent on them. Any mention like "Josephus mentions Jesus" falls apart when looked at. So bottom line, you're left suspending logic if you truly wish to believe some of the fables contained in the pages. And that's ok, just don't try pushing them into law etc. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 28, 2021, 04:58:45 PM
I don't think anyone can prove or disprove entire narrative stories, but there is evidence that a lot of those figures existed.  King David is one.

https://aleteia.org/2018/05/02/archaeologists-discover-evidence-that-may-prove-biblical-king-david-existed/

MAY prove.

That is not proof. That article is filled with speculation.

Just like i watched a series on Jesus's shroud and they said it "could" have been his because it was "similar" to what "might" have been around at that time period. That is 100% speculation. They don't even know where he was buried and rose from the dead, it's all a guess. I figured that would be pretty important?

Having the names of Cities is one thing, but proving any of these people existed is never going to happen. Many Cities changed names, so it is fair to not discredit it openly.

Even the story of the wise men visiting Jesus is 100% inaccurate and the astrology of the stars of that time has proven it.

Unless there was a special star that God created. :o

The Church claims 3 wise men visited, but the bible doesn't mention it, it is assumed based on bringing 3 gifts.

There are so many instances like this it's insane. It's all shenanigans.

I remember reading the bible and bringing up the inaccuracies my parents and people at church used to tell us, it used to piss them off. Everyone wants to interpret the words in the bible in a different way.

What i want to know, is why the other books of the original bible are hidden in the Vatican and nobody but the pope can see them. Why? Is the version edited by Kings not good enough?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 28, 2021, 08:41:57 PM
MAY prove.

That is not proof. That article is filled with speculation.

Just like i watched a series on Jesus's shroud and they said it "could" have been his because it was "similar" to what "might" have been around at that time period. That is 100% speculation. They don't even know where he was buried and rose from the dead, it's all a guess. I figured that would be pretty important?

Having the names of Cities is one thing, but proving any of these people existed is never going to happen. Many Cities changed names, so it is fair to not discredit it openly.

Even the story of the wise men visiting Jesus is 100% inaccurate and the astrology of the stars of that time has proven it.

Unless there was a special star that God created. :o

The Church claims 3 wise men visited, but the bible doesn't mention it, it is assumed based on bringing 3 gifts.

There are so many instances like this it's insane. It's all shenanigans.

I remember reading the bible and bringing up the inaccuracies my parents and people at church used to tell us, it used to piss them off. Everyone wants to interpret the words in the bible in a different way.

What i want to know, is why the other books of the original bible are hidden in the Vatican and nobody but the pope can see them. Why? Is the version edited by Kings not good enough?

I remember in my 30's after reading the bible a couple times, Josh McDowells "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" Strobels "Case for Christ" and a handful of other apologetic books I was on the fence. I decided I would start and Geneses and read the bible again, this time taking notes of things that bothered me. By the time I got to Exodus, after making notes of all the books I had read so far, I threw in the towel. The implication that what I was reading was man made religious myths that were perfectly normal in that age was so overwhelming, I couldn't continue. It was clear.

That's not to say that I don't appreciate Jesus' sermon on the mount and his driving home the message of loving your fellow man. But knowing the vast majority of Christians today wouldn't give the real Jesus the time of day, it doesn't really help much.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 28, 2021, 09:19:21 PM
I remember in my 30's after reading the bible a couple times, Josh McDowells "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" Strobels "Case for Christ" and a handful of other apologetic books I was on the fence. I decided I would start and Geneses and read the bible again, this time taking notes of things that bothered me. By the time I got to Exodus, after making notes of all the books I had read so far, I threw in the towel. The implication that what I was reading was man made religious myths that were perfectly normal in that age was so overwhelming, I couldn't continue. It was clear.

That's not to say that I don't appreciate Jesus' sermon on the mount and his driving the home the message of loving your fellow man. But knowing the vast majority of Christians today wouldn't give the real Jesus the time of day, it doesn't really help much.   

Sounds like something I'd say only you are more eloquent.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 28, 2021, 09:35:03 PM
Sounds like something I'd say only you are more eloquent.

Thanks. I have an older brother who has spent years and years studying the bible. I consider myself above average in knowledge of the bible. But he is far advanced above the average pastor in that he studies the Hebrew language and examines every scripture, breaking it down into it's original form, then trying to correlate it to the language of that time. Very extensive effort. However, I think he is missing the point. There was a time when I had a goal of cutting through all the interpretations and translations and trying to determine to the closest of the original, what the authors of the manuscripts were saying. It became clear to me that no matter how much I dug, I would never be able to access the original undoctered text.  I would always be reading someones translation of someones translation. So knowing that, I read the bible once again... as a book. Not as something to disect. The Old Testament... that I had to conclude was what tribesmen thought a God should be and do. It was more about what they thought should be right. Hence Exodus when "Moses" gave the rules on slavery and rape that I think we all SHOULD agree would never come from a God.

But more importantly when I read the New Testament, with some exception, mostly from the Apostles who allegedly wrote the books,  what  was attributed to Jesus was pretty simple.. 1. When you have learned how to love your fellow man, you will have finally learned how to love God.  and 2. Love your fellow man with actions that demonstrate that love not just words. Matthew 25 is my best example of that in the parable of the sheep and the goats.
I've mentioned before that the Scott and I share similar admiration for "The Nazarene" and his message. I think for the most part his message is exactly on point. The thing I hate is that for those who "believe" he was the son of god, they butcher his message to fit their outlooks and opinions and if The Nazarene exists, he would be none too happy about it.   I have no contempt for the Jesus character, I have a lot of contempt for those who claim to follow him yet tarnish his name
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 28, 2021, 09:45:17 PM
Thanks. I have an older brother who has spent years and years studying the bible. I consider myself above average in knowledge of the bible. But he is far advanced above the average pastor in that he studies the Hebrew language and examines every scripture, breaking it down into it's original form, then trying to correlate it to the language of that time. Very extensive effort. However, I think he is missing the point. There was a time when I had a goal of cutting through all the interpretations and translations and trying to determine to the closest of the original, what the authors of the manuscripts were saying. It became clear to me that no matter how much I dug, I would never be able to access the original undoctered text.  I would always be reading someones translation of someones translation. So knowing that, I read the bible once again... as a book. Not as something to disect. The Old Testament... that I had to conclude was what tribesmen thought a God should be and do. It was more about what they thought should be right. Hence Exodus when "Moses" gave the rules on slavery and rape that I think we all SHOULD agree would never come from a God.

But more importantly when I read the New Testament, with some exception, mostly from the Apostles who allegedly wrote the books,  what  was attributed to Jesus was pretty simple.. 1. When you have learned how to love your fellow man, you will have finally learned how to love God.  and 2. Love your fellow man with actions that demonstrate that love not just words. Matthew 25 is my best example of that in the parable of the sheep and the wolves. 

I've mentioned before that the Scott and I share similar admiration for "The Nazarene" and his message. I think for the most part his message is exactly on point. The thing I hate is that for those who "believe" he was the son of god, they butcher his message to fit their outlooks and opinions and if The Nazarene exists, he would be none too happy about it.   I have no contempt for the Jesus character, I have a lot of contempt for those who claim to follow him yet tarnish his name

Again, sounds like you are describing me. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 29, 2021, 01:29:37 AM
Thanks. I have an older brother who has spent years and years studying the bible. I consider myself above average in knowledge of the bible. But he is far advanced above the average pastor in that he studies the Hebrew language and examines every scripture, breaking it down into it's original form, then trying to correlate it to the language of that time. Very extensive effort. However, I think he is missing the point. There was a time when I had a goal of cutting through all the interpretations and translations and trying to determine to the closest of the original, what the authors of the manuscripts were saying. It became clear to me that no matter how much I dug, I would never be able to access the original undoctered text.  I would always be reading someones translation of someones translation. So knowing that, I read the bible once again... as a book. Not as something to disect. The Old Testament... that I had to conclude was what tribesmen thought a God should be and do. It was more about what they thought should be right. Hence Exodus when "Moses" gave the rules on slavery and rape that I think we all SHOULD agree would never come from a God.

But more importantly when I read the New Testament, with some exception, mostly from the Apostles who allegedly wrote the books,  what  was attributed to Jesus was pretty simple.. 1. When you have learned how to love your fellow man, you will have finally learned how to love God.  and 2. Love your fellow man with actions that demonstrate that love not just words. Matthew 25 is my best example of that in the parable of the sheep and the wolves. 

I've mentioned before that the Scott and I share similar admiration for "The Nazarene" and his message. I think for the most part his message is exactly on point. The thing I hate is that for those who "believe" he was the son of god, they butcher his message to fit their outlooks and opinions and if The Nazarene exists, he would be none too happy about it.   I have no contempt for the Jesus character, I have a lot of contempt for those who claim to follow him yet tarnish his name

Well put my dude.

I understand you and i have similar backgrounds.

I appreciate your input. No homo.  ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 31, 2021, 12:43:05 AM
It's a shame when agnostics get thrown into a category of "They don't believe because they fall short". It really just highlights that persons ignorance of the bible. We ALL fall short according to Romans 3:23 but as I said, it somehow lets them sleep better at night thinking "we" just couldn't live up the the bar... like Gaetz, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Robert Tilton,  Jim Bakker, etc.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 01, 2021, 03:34:03 PM
MAY prove.

That is not proof. That article is filled with speculation.

Just like i watched a series on Jesus's shroud and they said it "could" have been his because it was "similar" to what "might" have been around at that time period. That is 100% speculation. They don't even know where he was buried and rose from the dead, it's all a guess. I figured that would be pretty important?

Having the names of Cities is one thing, but proving any of these people existed is never going to happen. Many Cities changed names, so it is fair to not discredit it openly.

Even the story of the wise men visiting Jesus is 100% inaccurate and the astrology of the stars of that time has proven it.

Unless there was a special star that God created. :o

The Church claims 3 wise men visited, but the bible doesn't mention it, it is assumed based on bringing 3 gifts.

There are so many instances like this it's insane. It's all shenanigans.

I remember reading the bible and bringing up the inaccuracies my parents and people at church used to tell us, it used to piss them off. Everyone wants to interpret the words in the bible in a different way.

What i want to know, is why the other books of the original bible are hidden in the Vatican and nobody but the pope can see them. Why? Is the version edited by Kings not good enough?

You are applying an unreasonable proof standard.  It's difficult to apply an absolute proof standard to events that happened and people who existed thousands of years ago.  And calling it "100% speculation" is an overstatement.  You're smarter than that.

Regarding Biblical interpretation, I agree there are many people who interpret things differently.  I don't get hung up on it.  There are some things I don't understand, but I just apply a commonsense standard to everything else.  That's why I don't accept everything my church teaches, because some of it doesn't make sense to me.  Good thing my church doesn't have control over my personal relationship with God.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 04, 2021, 06:37:14 PM
They probably suffered emotional distress when they saw the banner.

'Jesus' banner yanked from Fort Sill's main gate, Military Religious Freedom Foundation says
By Mark A. Kellner - The Washington Times - Friday, June 4, 2021
(https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2021/06/04/image_c0-166-900-690_s885x516.jpeg?f569a30f05947e3e1539c72d377fa8ad159cd324)
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation took credit for forcing the removal of a banner advertising a Vacation Bible School program, which bore the slogan, "Jesus Pulls Us Through," from the main gate at the Fort Sill Army Base in Oklahoma. (Photo courtesy of MRFF)

An advocacy group that says it fights “church/state violations and noxious abuse” in the military said Friday it forced the removal of a banner advertising a Vacation Bible School program from the main gate at the Fort Sill Army Base in Oklahoma.

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation, based in Albuquerque, New Mexico, said the banner’s slogan, “Jesus Pulls Us Through,” was objectionable when displayed at the base entrance.

“Which ‘us’” did the banner refer to?” asked Mikey Weinstein, a lawyer and founder/president of the group. He said advertising the program on the base’s chapel grounds or on a military religious services webpage was one thing, but to hang the banner at the gate entrance suggested what Mr. Weinstein termed “an unconstitutional sectarian endorsement of fundamentalist Christianity.”

Frontier Chapel Gospel Service, one of several ministries on the Army base, is holding the “Rocky Railroad” Bible school for children ages 4-11. The program’s curriculum is a product of Group Publishing of Loveland, Colorado, an evangelical Christian publisher. Such programs generally offer instruction in Christian teachings and often feature an invitation to participants to commit to follow Christianity. Parents must give permission for their children to attend, and many parents participate in the sessions.

Sarah Kline, who said she is the wife of an active duty service member at the base, learned about the Vacation Bible School sign from James M. Branum, a Lawton, Oklahoma, lawyer who defends military personnel in courts-martial and administrative actions.

“Due to the VBS being the only event that was being advertised, it gave the impression that events or individuals of other faiths, and those who have no faith, were not being equally promoted or valued. And it also appeared the U.S. Army was endorsing an evangelical Christian event,” Ms. Kline said.

On Tuesday, she sent an email protesting the banner’s location to Col. Rhett A. Taylor, commander of the Army’s garrison at Fort Sill. By noon on Wednesday, Col. Taylor wrote back saying that “after legal review … there is concern with the signage” and the banner would be removed, she said.

Ms. Kline told The Washington Times, “We were very happy with that outcome, to be quite honest. I was elated at how quickly and swiftly the Fort Sill command team acted to rectify this issue. I’ve been at other installations where we’ve had similar complaints. And I wish that all complaints have worked out within such a swift manner.”

She said she could not “actually confirm or deny” that other religious or non-religious events were promoted by the base at other times of the year, adding, “I have my own suspicions.”

Ms. Kline, 33 who said she’s the mother of 10-year-old triplets, said “we are a secular humanist household” when asked about her family’s faith affiliation.

Marie Pihulic, public affairs officer for the Fort Sill garrison, said via email the unit “has no comment at this time” on the matter. A representative of the Frontier Chapel Gospel Service was unreachable by phone and did not respond to an email request for comment.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jun/4/jesus-pulls-us-through-banner-yanked-fort-sill-mil/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 04, 2021, 07:42:48 PM
Sad that it had to be done. Seems some people don't understand the concept of a government entity not playing favorites about religions matters. IF they ignored this seemingly harmless affront, it wouldn't be long before they'd take another step across the line and another. It's happened enough times we just can't afford to let the little things go. So yeah, on the surface it seems silly. But it always goes deeper than it appears.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 04, 2021, 10:12:47 PM
Sad that it had to be done. Seems some people don't understand the concept of a government entity not playing favorites about religions matters. IF they ignored this seemingly harmless affront, it wouldn't be long before they'd take another step across the line and another. It's happened enough times we just can't afford to let the little things go. So yeah, on the surface it seems silly. But it always goes deeper than it appears.

It's silly both on and below the surface. 

On the other hand, if they let something like this go, next thing you know there will be multiple chapels on the military base, chaplains from various religions, prayers before events, etc.  The horror.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 09, 2021, 11:35:25 PM
It's silly both on and below the surface. 

On the other hand, if they let something like this go, next thing you know there will be multiple chapels on the military base, chaplains from various religions, prayers before events, etc.  The horror.   :)

You really don't see the issue? I mean ... really? You seem to be saying that because there are a variety of religious services on bases, to include those that aren't Christian based, that it's perfectly fine to put up any religious signs at the entrance to a military installation. Is that your position?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 10, 2021, 10:44:03 AM
It's all an assault on Christianity.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 10, 2021, 12:08:38 PM
You really don't see the issue? I mean ... really? You seem to be saying that because there are a variety of religious services on bases, to include those that aren't Christian based, that it's perfectly fine to put up any religious signs at the entrance to a military installation. Is that your position?

The issue is paranoid anti-religious extremists who have the mistaken belief that the Constitution prohibits all expressions of God or religion on public property.  It doesn't. 

The other issue is those same folks who mistakenly believe the Constitution protects them from being offended by something they don't believe exists.  It doesn't. 

Anyone who believes they need to be protected from seeing a sign advertising Vacation Bible School needs to man up, put on their big boy pants, and get over it already.  This isn't establishing a church.  It's not forcing anyone to attend church.  It's not forcing anyone to become a Christian.  It's just plain silly. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 10, 2021, 08:33:46 PM
The issue is paranoid anti-religious extremists who have the mistaken belief that the Constitution prohibits all expressions of God or religion on public property.  It doesn't. 

The other issue is those same folks who mistakenly believe the Constitution protects them from being offended by something they don't believe exists.  It doesn't. 

Anyone who believes they need to be protected from seeing a sign advertising Vacation Bible School needs to man up, put on their big boy pants, and get over it already.  This isn't establishing a church.  It's not forcing anyone to attend church.  It's not forcing anyone to become a Christian.  It's just plain silly.

So you don't see it.. cool
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 25, 2021, 08:20:48 PM
It especially will not happen when a member of Congress threatens their tax exempt status in retaliation. 

Joe Biden on Potentially Being Denied Communion: ‘A Private Matter, Don’t Think That’s Going to Happen’
by WENDELL HUSEBØ
18 Jun 2021

President Joe Biden commented on potentially being denied Communion at the Catholic Church on Friday, saying it was a private matter and that it was not going to happen.

“How do you feel personally about that?” the reporter asked Biden after he had finished speaking about Chinese coronavirus vaccine numbers.

“That’s a private matter, and I don’t think that’s going to happen,” Biden responded before scurrying off the stage.

The question comes as the Wall Street Journal reported Friday there is a movement afoot to disallow Biden to receive Communion from the Catholic Church due to his favorable position on murdering babies before they are born.

The Journal explained:

U.S. Catholic bishops on Friday agreed to prepare a document that would lay out the conditions under which Catholic politicians who support abortion rights, including President Biden, may be denied Communion.

The controversial measure, which had drawn objections from the Vatican and from Pope Francis’s strongest allies among the U.S. bishops, required only a simple majority but passed with 73%, or 168, of the 229 votes cast on Thursday. More than 270 U.S. bishops were eligible to vote.

The bishops’ doctrinal committee will now proceed to draft a document on the Eucharist that will include a section on the conditions under which politicians may receive Communion. Some bishops want that section to state that politicians who support abortion rights must be denied the sacrament.

The report comes as the editors of the influential National Catholic Register issued an op-ed June 14 noting Biden’s slip into his current radical position in favor of unrestricted abortion-on-demand.

In February, Father Jerry Pokorsky, a Virginia priest and Director of Human Life International, said Biden was the “most aggressively anti-Catholic President in history.”

Also in February, the head of the U.S. Bishops’ Committee on Pro-Life Activities, Kansas City Archbishop Joseph Naumann, stated Biden should stop labeling “himself a devout Catholic since his actions contradict this claim.”

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/06/18/joe-biden-on-potentially-being-denied-communion-a-private-matter-dont-think-thats-going-to-happen/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 26, 2021, 02:39:03 PM
Liberalism is Biden's religion.  I doubt he cares about being denied communion.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on June 26, 2021, 03:28:26 PM
Liberalism is Biden's religion.  I doubt he cares about being denied communion.

Biden's counting on "indulgences"...FTN.   ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: bhank on September 27, 2021, 08:34:45 AM
I pray for GAINS
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on September 27, 2021, 09:05:34 AM
I pray for GAINS
Maybe you'll be jacked in the afterlife with striated wings.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 27, 2021, 08:17:39 PM
I pray for GAINS

Prayer is useless without maximum effort.  Gotta eat right, train hard, rest, supplement . . . and then pray.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on September 27, 2021, 08:20:24 PM
I pray for GAINS

STFU you depleted bag of banged up buttholes.  FOAD you mental maggot.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on September 28, 2021, 10:49:34 AM
Prayer is useless without maximum effort.  Gotta eat right, train hard, rest, supplement . . . and then pray.   :)
Are you Hulk Hogan?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 28, 2021, 11:25:38 PM
Are you Hulk Hogan?

Nah.  He's taller than me.  But I'm in a lot better shape than him.  I'm a gym rat.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 09, 2021, 11:29:17 AM
Catholic Senator Dick Durbin Denied Communion Because He Supports Killing Babies in Abortions
Micaiah Bilger
Nov 9, 2021 
https://www.lifenews.com/2021/11/09/catholic-senator-dick-durbin-denied-communion-because-he-supports-killing-babies-in-abortions/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on November 09, 2021, 04:47:56 PM
Catholic Senator Dick Durbin Denied Communion Because He Supports Killing Babies in Abortions
Micaiah Bilger
Nov 9, 2021 
https://www.lifenews.com/2021/11/09/catholic-senator-dick-durbin-denied-communion-because-he-supports-killing-babies-in-abortions/

Why don't they deny communion to pro death penalty Catholics as well?  Would at least be consistent. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 09, 2021, 06:09:54 PM
Why don't they deny communion to pro death penalty Catholics as well?  Would at least be consistent.

Good point.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on November 09, 2021, 06:39:09 PM
Why don't they deny communion to pro death penalty Catholics as well?  Would at least be consistent.

Primarily due to the simple fact that the unborn are held innocent and murderers are deserving of death.    Take it from a Cashew, my friend.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on November 09, 2021, 06:43:38 PM
Primarily due to the simple fact that the unborn are held innocent and murderers are deserving of death.    Take it from a Cashew, my friend.

My point is that they are politically choosing which rules to follow and who to apply them to.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on November 09, 2021, 06:46:49 PM
My point is that they are politically choosing which rules to follow and who to apply them to.

Men are only men, especially when they choose to behave as such.

And my point is the truth and not because I say it is. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on December 16, 2021, 08:43:28 AM
Kenneth Copeland is the wealthiest pastor in America. So why does he live in a tax-free Texas mansion?

At his 2015 Southwest Believers’ Convention in Fort Worth, wealthy Texas televangelist Kenneth Copeland explained how he wound up living in a mansion. It all started when God told him years earlier to build that dream home his wife Gloria had described to him.

“Minister this house to her,” he recalled the almighty saying. “It is part of your prosperity.”

Her vision was vast: Rising up three stories and sporting white columns in front, the six-bedroom, six-bath estate on the shores of an exclusive lake community outside of Fort Worth has enough room to fit nearly four basketball courts — more than 18,000 square feet of living space in all.

“You may think that house is too big,” Copeland told the believers’ convention. “You may think it's too grand. I don't care what you think. I heard from heaven. Glory to God, hallelujah!”

What he didn’t mention is that his heavenly plans are being underwritten by Texas taxpayers. Under a little-known statute that county appraisers say is too vague and permissive, the $7 million mansion owned by Copeland’s Eagle Mountain International Church is considered a parsonage — a clergy residence — qualifying for a 100 percent tax break.

That means Copeland’s church gets a pass on what would otherwise be an annual property tax bill exceeding $150,000
— money that other local taxpayers must backfill to cover the cost of schools, police and firefighters.

A months-long Houston Chronicle investigation of ministers’ tax-free residences found no shortage of extravagant homes in high-dollar locales. At least two dozen were worth over $1 million even using the artificially low values that exempt properties typically carry.

Yet even in that elite company, Copeland’s tax-free clergy residence stands out as an opulent illustration of the lengths the law allows religious organizations to go in claiming the tax break. The only limit on the dollar value churches can exempt resides in the imagination of pastors like Copeland.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/unfair-burden/article/kenneth-copeland-wealth-pastor-tax-free-mansion-16662283.php
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 20, 2022, 02:13:12 PM
Actor — a former atheist — details moment he fell in love with Jesus, shares his journey to faith while working in Hollywood: 'I knew that if there was a heaven, I wouldn't be going there'
SARAH TAYLOR
January 12, 2022   

Former "Growing Pains" actor Kirk Cameron says that he was moved to ask Jesus into his life at the tender young age of 17 — when his child acting career was at its pinnacle.

What are the details?
Cameron, who starred on the hit 1980s sitcom, said that he began acting at 14 years old — and it didn't take long for Hollywood to get its narcissistic hooks into him.

Luckily for the longtime entertainer, he was moved to ask Jesus Christ into his life and lived the rest of his life thereafter as a changed man.

During a recent appearance on the PragerU "Stories of Us" series, the actor said that a note written by his daughter prompted him to consider his former Hollywood superstardom.

The note said, "It's the same boiling water that softens potatoes that hardens eggs. It just depends on what you're made of."

“So the same difficult challenges and influences of Hollywood that turn some people sour and make them narcissistic and bitter and joyless and afraid to not fit in is the same pressure that actually softened my heart and caused me to embrace gratitude and be thankful for the life that I have and want to use a platform and this Hollywood industry to advance the good,” he explained. “I really think it’s what you’re made of. And if you don’t know what you’re made of, don’t look to your environment or your industry or other people to give you an identity. There was somebody who made you — ask Him. And you can be sure that the ending of the story is gonna be fantastic.”

Don't miss out on content from Dave Rubin free of big tech censorship. Listen to The Rubin Report now.
Cameron said that by just 17 years old, he was living the life that most child actors dream of: riding around in high-priced sports cars with fellow '80s staples like Michael J. Fox and receiving more attention than any young, impressionable teen could ever want — but he was worried that it wasn't enough to sustain him for all eternity.

Cameron said that the moment shines clearly in his mind's eye.

After dropping off a female thespian at her acting class, Cameron said that he began to wonder if there was more to life than simply living most every teenager's dream.

“I knew that if there was a heaven, I wouldn’t be going there,” he admitted, adding that he was convicted of living his life with an attitude of arrogance rather than the heart of a servant and a spirit of faithfulness.

He said that he realized right then and there that he would need to ask Jesus into his heart for forgiveness and to turn over a new leaf.

“God, if you’re there, would you please show me?" he recalled praying.

"Would you forgive me for the wrong things I’ve done and make me the person that You want me to be?”

Cameron, now 51 years old, is living life with faith at the forefront — with his wife, a fellow Christian, a woman he met on the set of his beloved '80s show.

While certainly the most important, coming to Christ wasn’t the only way Cameron changed, thanks at least in part to Hollywood. He was also introduced to his wife on the set of “Growing Pains.”

“I found a girl,” Cameron said. “She’s beautiful on the inside; she’s beautiful on the outside. I married her and we’ve been married for 30 years. You have no idea how much more valuable that is. I’ve got six grown children who love God and still ask me my opinions about things, who still love to come home and be with me and my wife, and I’m on PragerU’s ‘Stories of Us.’ I mean, the story doesn’t really end much better than this.”

https://www.theblaze.com/news/kirk-cameron-faith-journey-hollywood
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on March 03, 2022, 01:16:53 PM
Kenneth Copeland is the wealthiest pastor in America. So why does he live in a tax-free Texas mansion?

At his 2015 Southwest Believers’ Convention in Fort Worth, wealthy Texas televangelist Kenneth Copeland explained how he wound up living in a mansion. It all started when God told him years earlier to build that dream home his wife Gloria had described to him.

“Minister this house to her,” he recalled the almighty saying. “It is part of your prosperity.”

Her vision was vast: Rising up three stories and sporting white columns in front, the six-bedroom, six-bath estate on the shores of an exclusive lake community outside of Fort Worth has enough room to fit nearly four basketball courts — more than 18,000 square feet of living space in all.

“You may think that house is too big,” Copeland told the believers’ convention. “You may think it's too grand. I don't care what you think. I heard from heaven. Glory to God, hallelujah!”

What he didn’t mention is that his heavenly plans are being underwritten by Texas taxpayers. Under a little-known statute that county appraisers say is too vague and permissive, the $7 million mansion owned by Copeland’s Eagle Mountain International Church is considered a parsonage — a clergy residence — qualifying for a 100 percent tax break.

That means Copeland’s church gets a pass on what would otherwise be an annual property tax bill exceeding $150,000
— money that other local taxpayers must backfill to cover the cost of schools, police and firefighters.

A months-long Houston Chronicle investigation of ministers’ tax-free residences found no shortage of extravagant homes in high-dollar locales. At least two dozen were worth over $1 million even using the artificially low values that exempt properties typically carry.

Yet even in that elite company, Copeland’s tax-free clergy residence stands out as an opulent illustration of the lengths the law allows religious organizations to go in claiming the tax break. The only limit on the dollar value churches can exempt resides in the imagination of pastors like Copeland.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/unfair-burden/article/kenneth-copeland-wealth-pastor-tax-free-mansion-16662283.php

He is the Devil himself.

All religious institutions should pay taxes.

There is a big church in Houston, Second Baptist i believe. One of the Pastors lived in a $400k house inside a gated community. All paid for by church offerings and tax free. He drove a new BMW 5 series and wore $3k dollar suits. Used to preach that it's ok to be rich, as long as you pay it back to God.

Unreal.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on March 03, 2022, 09:24:37 PM
He is the Devil himself.

All religious institutions should pay taxes.

There is a big church in Houston, Second Baptist i believe. One of the Pastors lived in a $400k house inside a gated community. All paid for by church offerings and tax free. He drove a new BMW 5 series and wore $3k dollar suits. Used to preach that it's ok to be rich, as long as you pay it back to God.

Unreal.

Bingo!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on March 04, 2022, 02:15:21 PM

God, if He exists, does NOT need your money and while not in the same way, these men and women do NOT need your money. But being men and women, being of the flesh and nothing more, they WANT your money and all that it allows them to do.

Not in the name of God but in the desires of their flesh.  The needs of their ego.

If I, an Atheist with an IQ of approximately 80 can see and understand this and many other truths about people, why is it so many of you who are far above me cannot understand?  You have eyes yet your refuse to open them.  You have ears and still you cover them.  I am not picking on anyone here, but...

...We had best pray there is no God.   Ahhhh...But to whom does such as we, pray?

If I were an "atheist" instead of an Atheist, I would begin by looking in the mirror.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 04, 2022, 08:47:59 PM
God, if He exists, does NOT need your money and while not in the same way, these men and women do NOT need your money. But being men and women, being of the flesh and nothing more, they WANT your money and all that it allows them to do.

Not in the name of God but in the desires of their flesh.  The needs of their ego.

If I, an Atheist with an IQ of approximately 80 can see and understand this and many other truths about people, why is it so many of you who are far above me cannot understand?  You have eyes yet your refuse to open them.  You have ears and still you cover them.  I am not picking on anyone here, but...

...We had best pray there is no God.   Ahhhh...But to whom does such as we, pray?

If I were an "atheist" instead of an Atheist, I would begin by looking in the mirror.

cool

But lets delve deeper. God... if he or she exists.. will not be like the god of the bible.. that God is obviously the work of those men of that time. So IF a god exists. all bets are on as to what the god likes or dislikes. My assumption based on my moral compass is he or she doesn't give a crap about if skin is exposed, or celebrating birthdays, or kneeling x times a day, or if you abstain from eating during certain periods. It will likely surprise 90% of the religious world what this "God" likes 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on March 04, 2022, 09:03:29 PM
cool

But lets delve deeper. God... if he or she exists.. will not be like the god of the bible.. that God is obviously the work of those men of that time. So IF a god exists. all bets are on as to what the god likes or dislikes. My assumption based on my moral compass is he or she doesn't give a crap about if skin is exposed, or celebrating birthdays, or kneeling x times a day, or if you abstain from eating during certain periods. It will likely surprise 90% of the religious world what this "God" likes

Good, realistic take on a far fetched idea.   ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 04, 2022, 09:12:32 PM
Good, realistic take on a far fetched idea.   ;D

I'm agonistic.. SURPRISE

But I Come from a back ground of Christianity. Was preaching in a 1ST Baptist church as a guest speaker at 16-17 years of age. but in my 30's I began to have some doubts and started to do some research outside of the Christian community. Long story short I left Christianity. I don't have a problem with Jesus' teachings.. but the Old Testament is screwed up in my opinion, Sadly the majority of people who question my stance, never actually read the bible.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on March 04, 2022, 09:18:34 PM
I'm agonistic.. SURPRISE

But I Come from a back ground of Christianity. Was preaching in a 1ST Baptist church as a guest speaker at 16-17 years of age. but in my 30's I began to have some doubts and started to do some research outside of the Christian community. Long story short I left Christianity. I don't have a problem with Jesus' teachings.. but the Old Testament is screwed up in my opinion, Sadly the majority of people who question my stance, never actually read the bible.

My journey is somewhat similar.  Came up Catholic and in my late twenties and early 30's started exploring other faiths.  Found stuff I liked and disliked in most faiths including my own but ultimately I just couldn't buy into any of it.  Just feels like trying to square a circle.   Jesus' teachings are idyllic.  To this day when I read the beatitudes, it fills me with emotion.  When religion is used for the betterment of lives and society I say more power to you. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
My journey is somewhat similar.  Came up Catholic and in my late twenties and early 30's started exploring other faiths.  Found stuff I liked and disliked in most faiths including my own but ultimately I just couldn't buy into any of it.  Just feels like trying to square a circle.   Jesus' teachings are idyllic.  To this day when I read the beatitudes, it fills me with emotion.  When religion is used for the betterment of lives and society I say more power to you.

Absolutely agree

And I know a few Christians who actually follow Jesus' teachings and run their churches in line with that. Those churches I donate to. I respect people who care about other people. I have nothing but disdain for people who under the guise of religion,  are jerks...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on March 08, 2022, 02:35:56 PM
Good posts fellas.

I'm the same way, raised in a very religious family. Texas country farming people.

I read and studied the bible until i was 18. Went to Church 2-3 days a week my entire teenage life.

In my 20's i realized it's all shenanigans. Interesting stories created by men.

A book put together by kings to control people.

I think it has it's place and think it's great to have god fearing people, but it's not for me.

The most religious people i know are complete frauds. But i do know a lot of very good and honest folks that live a good life and help a lot of people.

Like everything in life it can be used for good or evil.

I stopped debating people about it years ago, but i will give me .02 when asked.

Like agnostic said, most people who disagree with me have never read or studied the bible seriously. People just follow what they are told by their parents and Church family. The old testament it crazy and people choose what to believe. The entire bible is filled with contradictions and things taken out of context.

I do believe there is most likely a "God", or a supreme being, something unknown to us. But it's not what is portrayed in the bible and it surely is not human based. How conceited to believe it would be in a universe so massive. We are like an ant farm in the grand scheme of things on a cosmic level.

I've studied a lot of religions in my life. Christianity is a very strange religion when you look at it from the outside.

I found the Buddhist people and teachings to be the most interesting. As they focus on conquering yourself. Spent many nights talking to monks when i lived in Houston. I dated a Vietnamese girl for 6 years and used to donate my time to the local Temple just to help fix and build things. Most of them are good people.

I find religion fascinating and terrifying at the same time.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on March 09, 2022, 04:58:59 AM
I agree. The idea that God has cursed us all to eternal hellfire unless we accept Christ's death on the cross, a man we have no proof even existed, or, if he existed was anything like presented to us, is weird.

Reading the Bible from the Old Testament through the New Testament it is clear the concept and character traits of God changed as human culture changed. God starts out as an angry egomaniac who pouts and punishes his creations for every little thing and then transforms to a God of infinite love and then back again (in Book of Revelation). He also favors one group of his children (the Jews) over all of the others.

If we do everything right to receive God's forgiveness of our sins (which he put in us) and his glory our reward is we get to live in heaven forever doing what? Worshiping him. ::)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on March 12, 2022, 02:38:29 PM
couldn't agree more with the above two posts.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on May 05, 2022, 04:07:35 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/04/satanic-flag-boston-city-hall-request-supreme-court-ruling  (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/04/satanic-flag-boston-city-hall-request-supreme-court-ruling)

A Satanic temple is requesting to fly a flag over Boston City Hall after the US supreme court this week ruled the city violated the free speech rights of a conservative activist seeking to fly a Christian flag outside the downtown complex.

If a Christian flag can be flown, why not Satanic?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 05, 2022, 06:03:54 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/04/satanic-flag-boston-city-hall-request-supreme-court-ruling  (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/04/satanic-flag-boston-city-hall-request-supreme-court-ruling)

A Satanic temple is requesting to fly a flag over Boston City Hall after the US supreme court this week ruled the city violated the free speech rights of a conservative activist seeking to fly a Christian flag outside the downtown complex.

If a Christian flag can be flown, why not Satanic?

Indeed. If one religion can fly its flag on a public building then other religions should be able to, not just the government "approved" or "preferred" religions. This is similar to what happened with prayers and invocations before public meetings where only "certain" religions were allowed.


How the Satanic Temple forced Phoenix lawmakers to ban public prayer

For weeks now, Phoenix lawmakers have wrestled with the idea of allowing members of a Satanic group to give the invocation before an upcoming city meeting.

Phoenix City Council members arrived Wednesday at a controversial solution: Banning prayer altogether.

From now on, lawmakers decided in a 5-4 vote, council meetings will no longer begin with a traditional prayer, but instead open with a moment of silence.

Although the decision may block the Satanic Temple’s Feb. 17 invocation, it prompted outcries from some Phoenix residents and city officials who believe the prayer ban is a de facto victory for the Satanists.

Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton and four members of the council voted in favor of the change and argued that an effort to silence particular groups could land the city in an expensive legal battle.

“The First Amendment to the Constitution is not ambiguous on this issue,” Stanton said, according to the Republic. “Discriminating against faiths would violate the oath that all of us on this dais took. I personally take that very, very seriously.”

Lipper, who has represented the Satanic Temple in previous legal battles, said that two years ago, the Supreme Court held in Town of Greece v. Galloway that a community’s practice of beginning legislative sessions with prayers does not violate the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause.

However, Lipper said, while local governments can open meetings with prayers, those governments cannot control the content of those prayers unless they denigrate other faiths or include proselytizing. Much of the resistance to the Satanic Temple, he said, comes from people who believe the group is made up of devil worshipers, and they tend to unleash fierce opposition that wouldn’t hold up in a court of law.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/02/05/how-the-satanic-temple-forced-phoenix-lawmakers-to-ban-public-prayer/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 05, 2022, 08:11:06 PM
Silly shit.  No different than Alice in Wonderland or Twas the Night Before Christmas.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 02, 2022, 09:04:30 PM
Silly shit.  No different than Alice in Wonderland or Twas the Night Before Christmas.


At this point, anyone believing in a biblical god hasn't read the bible cover to cover.. bar none. and before you comment, ask yourself... have you actually read the bible cover to cover?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 07, 2022, 03:01:30 PM

At this point, anyone believing in a biblical god hasn't read the bible cover to cover.. bar none. and before you comment, ask yourself... have you actually read the bible cover to cover?

This is absolute BS.  Have I read the Bible "cover to cover"?  I cannot say that I have taken any religious book and read it "cover to cover."  Have I read parts of pretty much the entire thing over the course of my entire life?  Yes. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 09, 2022, 09:35:26 PM
This is absolute BS.  Have I read the Bible "cover to cover"?  I cannot say that I have taken any religious book and read it "cover to cover."  Have I read parts of pretty much the entire thing over the course of my entire life?  Yes.

Do you believe it?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 13, 2022, 05:55:06 PM
Do you believe it?

You're asking me whether I believe all parts of the Bible?  Including the parables (i.e., fictional stories), historical stories, commandments, recommendations, love stories, etc.?  Not a good question, especially from someone who has read the Bible from "cover to cover." 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 13, 2022, 07:04:55 PM
You're asking me whether I believe all parts of the Bible?  Including the parables (i.e., fictional stories), historical stories, commandments, recommendations, love stories, etc.?  Not a good question, especially from someone who has read the Bible from "cover to cover."

It's a legitimate question. You had the option of specifying what parts you decided to believe and what parts you put in the fictional category. Not a difficult thing to do
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 13, 2022, 07:49:34 PM
It's a legitimate question. You had the option of specifying what parts you decided to believe and what parts you put in the fictional category. Not a difficult thing to do

It's a terrible question.  As someone who has read the Bible "cover to cover," you knew that your question was too loaded to provide a reasonable answer.  But it's not your goal to have an actual discussion.  Like a disproportionate number of atheists, you read the Bible, constantly engage people of faith, and try to either ridicule them or prove they are hypocrites.  Weak sauce. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 14, 2022, 12:03:40 AM
It's a terrible question.  As someone who has read the Bible "cover to cover," you knew that your question was too loaded to provide a reasonable answer.  But it's not your goal to have an actual discussion.  Like a disproportionate number of atheists, you read the Bible, constantly engage people of faith, and try to either ridicule them or prove they are hypocrites.  Weak sauce.

I'm not sure how many times I have stated here that I have no interest in changing peoples beliefs but I'll wager a years abstinence from this site that is its more than once. If you are up to the bet.. if not.. then lets move on.... it was NOT a loaded question.. either you believe the bible or you don't
When you start cherry picking whats real and what's fiction you are really admitting it is all up for grabs... I'm simply a realist... I agree with you about all the parts you think are fiction.. we just disagree on the rest
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 14, 2022, 01:58:42 PM
I'm not sure how many times I have stated here that I have no interest in changing peoples beliefs but I'll wager a years abstinence from this site that is its more than once. If you are up to the bet.. if not.. then lets move on.... it was NOT a loaded question.. either you believe the bible or you don't
When you start cherry picking whats real and what's fiction you are really admitting it is all up for grabs... I'm simply a realist... I agree with you about all the parts you think are fiction.. we just disagree on the rest

You're being disingenuous.  You are seriously telling me there aren't numerous parables in the Bible, particularly those told by Jesus in the New Testament?  It's not cherry picking anything to understand that parts of the Bible contain fictional stories, told for the purpose of making a particular point. 

The cool thing about being a Christian is you never lose the power of choice.  That power includes some Christians who interpret things differently than other Christians.  Nothing wrong with that.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 17, 2022, 09:45:20 PM
You're being disingenuous.  You are seriously telling me there aren't numerous parables in the Bible, particularly those told by Jesus in the New Testament?  It's not cherry picking anything to understand that parts of the Bible contain fictional stories, told for the purpose of making a particular point. 

The cool thing about being a Christian is you never lose the power of choice.  That power includes some Christians who interpret things differently than other Christians.  Nothing wrong with that.   

It's also the cool thing about believing in any religion, psychic, flat earth, 911 conspiracy or any conspiracy for that matter. The truth is what your opinion happens to be... nothing wrong with that either I guess
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 18, 2022, 12:05:17 PM
Watched a Youtube video from Eric Dubay titled Jesus Christ Never Existed. Too lazy to post it. Very interesting perspective.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 21, 2022, 03:22:32 PM
It's also the cool thing about believing in any religion, psychic, flat earth, 911 conspiracy or any conspiracy for that matter. The truth is what your opinion happens to be... nothing wrong with that either I guess

The "truth" is how you interpret whatever you're reading.  Two people can read the same thing and come to diametrically opposed interpretations.  That's not limited to the Bible.  That's life in general.  It's one of the things that makes life interesting. 

Why do you think we have courts?  Because people disagree over written text.  We often get split decisions from the U.S. Supreme Court all the time (including today). 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 22, 2022, 09:43:39 AM
The "truth" is how you interpret whatever you're reading.  Two people can read the same thing and come to diametrically opposed interpretations.  That's not limited to the Bible.  That's life in general.  It's one of the things that makes life interesting. 

Why do you think we have courts?  Because people disagree over written text.  We often get split decisions from the U.S. Supreme Court all the time (including today).
This is why there are so many denominations. They all have verses in the Bible that "prove" they are right.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 22, 2022, 07:25:34 PM
This is why there are so many denominations. They all have verses in the Bible that "prove" they are right.

and again, with Christianity at least, it boasts the Holy Ghost, an entity that is supposed to guide you..the fact there are so many denominations of people filled with this holy ghosts kind of demonstrates it's ineffectiveness or lack of existence
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 22, 2022, 08:35:35 PM
This is why there are so many denominations. They all have verses in the Bible that "prove" they are right.

Or they just have differences of opinion. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 23, 2022, 02:41:26 AM
and again, with Christianity at least, it boasts the Holy Ghost, an entity that is supposed to guide you..the fact there are so many denominations of people filled with this holy ghosts kind of demonstrates it's effectiveness or lack of existence
Yes, the Holy Ghost tells Catholics to be Catholic, Baptists to be Baptist, Methodist to be Methodist, Mormons to be Mormon, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 26, 2022, 08:36:36 PM
Or they just have differences of opinion.

Are you really that dense that you would say that?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on August 29, 2022, 05:46:48 PM
Are you really that dense that you would say that?

Nothing dense about recognizing that people can read the same thing and have different interpretations.  But you have to not be a doofus to understand that. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on September 02, 2022, 03:08:33 PM
Nothing dense about recognizing that people can read the same thing and have different interpretations.  But you have to not be a doofus to understand that.

I think different interpretations and picking what you want to believe go hand in hand.

At least that's what i see from all my friends and family members.

Which is pretty normal in every part of life, to be fair.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on September 04, 2022, 12:23:12 PM
I think different interpretations and picking what you want to believe go hand in hand.

At least that's what i see from all my friends and family members.

Which is pretty normal in every part of life, to be fair.

I think it is, but it's the pretending from each group that their interpretation is the only right one when (especially religion) its obviously and demonstatably wrong
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on September 05, 2022, 02:41:01 PM
I think different interpretations and picking what you want to believe go hand in hand.

At least that's what i see from all my friends and family members.

Which is pretty normal in every part of life, to be fair.

Completely agree. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 16, 2023, 11:18:13 AM
(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2023/01/1440/810/nfl-prayer.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)

Jaguars, Titans come together for group prayer for Damar Hamlin at midfield before do-or-die game
Teams are facing off in what amounts to AFC South title game
By Ryan Morik | Fox News
Published January 7, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/jaguars-titans-come-together-group-prayer-damar-hamlin-midfield-do-or-die-game
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on January 16, 2023, 11:48:02 AM
(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2023/01/1440/810/nfl-prayer.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)

Jaguars, Titans come together for group prayer for Damar Hamlin at midfield before do-or-die game
Teams are facing off in what amounts to AFC South title game
By Ryan Morik | Fox News
Published January 7, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/jaguars-titans-come-together-group-prayer-damar-hamlin-midfield-do-or-die-game

Fuck those kneelers.  They don't know shit let alone God.  Whited sepulchers all.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on January 17, 2023, 01:01:08 AM
Praying publicly is the ultimate virtue signal.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on January 17, 2023, 10:38:54 PM
Praying publicly is the ultimate virtue signal.

I've said it before, but people who insist on public prayer are in it for themselves. The main reason I can say this is because Jesus himself said not to do it in his sermon on the mount. So for any christian to ignore his teaching and do it anyway.. no other explanation fits other than its for the show.   
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 20, 2023, 03:43:28 PM
Praying publicly is the ultimate virtue signal.

Depends on the context.  Public prayers at events are more unifying than anything else.  So is the prayer by the players (and everyone at the stadium) for Hamlin.  Those are good things. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on January 21, 2023, 01:03:17 AM
Depends on the context.  Public prayers at events are more unifying than anything else.  So is the prayer by the players (and everyone at the stadium) for Hamlin.  Those are good things.
No, all it did was make a bad situation worse. The players had time to think and build up trauma in their heads instead of just continuing the game. Then they decided not to play (no forfeit either) which screwed teams in the league (Bengals, Ravens, Bills, etc) and even considered cancelling the next week's games and moving the playoffs as well.

Now they are having flag football for the Pro Bowl. I wouldn't be surprised if all football was flag football in the next couple years. Soft and weak generation.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: IroNat on January 21, 2023, 07:53:28 AM
Remember this guy?

(https://sportswithballs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Tim-Tebow.jpg)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on January 21, 2023, 10:50:18 AM
Praying publicly is the ultimate virtue signal.

It can be.  If I may?

I think that public prayer stems from the Nazarene's statement that "...for where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am with them".

The Nazarene spoke against the BS of the Pharisees and Sadducee's practice of praying loudly in public as it was nothing but self promotion.

Hollyweirdos and the Kneelgroes of the NFL (and they come in all pigments) are the real "virtue signalers".  Fuck them all.

And so you know whereof I speak?  There are plenty of false ministers in every religion.  I had no religion, I followed Jesus of Nazareth and His Word.  When I came to the conclusion that I could no longer live it I gave up my claim of being Christian. 

You cannot serve God and your ego.

That is a big problem with today's religious "leaders".

You cannot serve the public and your ego.

This is THE problem with so many political "leaders".   Especially so the Democraps and RINOs.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 24, 2023, 05:25:00 PM
No, all it did was make a bad situation worse. The players had time to think and build up trauma in their heads instead of just continuing the game. Then they decided not to play (no forfeit either) which screwed teams in the league (Bengals, Ravens, Bills, etc) and even considered cancelling the next week's games and moving the playoffs as well.

Now they are having flag football for the Pro Bowl. I wouldn't be surprised if all football was flag football in the next couple years. Soft and weak generation.

They had to stop.  The dude literally died on the field and had to be revived.  At that point, you cannot continue the game.  Cancelling was the right thing to do.  And the players praying together on the field was unifying.  What else were they supposed to do? 

The Pro Bowl is a joke.  Flag football?  Ridiculous.  It should have never left Hawaii.  But our governor at the time was an idiot.  He thought the game was "stupid." 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on January 24, 2023, 06:52:45 PM
NFL players "praying"?!  They are NOT Christians.  What they are is a bunch of worthless pieces of shit who deserve to be deported to the middle of the Pacific.

And the subject of their fake prayers can fuck off  and die.  And stay dead.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on January 25, 2023, 01:35:57 AM
They had to stop.  The dude literally died on the field and had to be revived.  At that point, you cannot continue the game.  Cancelling was the right thing to do.  And the players praying together on the field was unifying.  What else were they supposed to do? 

The Pro Bowl is a joke.  Flag football?  Ridiculous.  It should have never left Hawaii.  But our governor at the time was an idiot.  He thought the game was "stupid."
No, they didn't have to stop the game. Buffalo should have forfeited if they didn't want to keep playing. By stopping the game it screwed up the whole seeding for the playoffs. A guy died of a heart attack on the field in 1970 and they didn't stop the game. Numerous players have been paralyzed which is worse than death and the game played on.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on January 25, 2023, 03:18:49 PM
No, they didn't have to stop the game. Buffalo should have forfeited if they didn't want to keep playing. By stopping the game it screwed up the whole seeding for the playoffs. A guy died of a heart attack on the field in 1970 and they didn't stop the game. Numerous players have been paralyzed which is worse than death and the game played on.

While I am sensitive to the situation that occurred, I think I agree with your assessment here.  I guess I could look up the answer but were the paying fans in attendance offered a refund, partial refund or any sort of compensation? 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 25, 2023, 07:42:25 PM
No, they didn't have to stop the game. Buffalo should have forfeited if they didn't want to keep playing. By stopping the game it screwed up the whole seeding for the playoffs. A guy died of a heart attack on the field in 1970 and they didn't stop the game. Numerous players have been paralyzed which is worse than death and the game played on.

Man I gotta disagree with you here.  No way would I want to continue playing if one of my teammates or opponents died on the field in the middle of a game.  I don't think the players, coaches, or the league wanted to continue the game.  I get that it messed with the seedings but life and death trumps football. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on January 26, 2023, 01:49:29 AM
Man I gotta disagree with you here.  No way would I want to continue playing if one of my teammates or opponents died on the field in the middle of a game.  I don't think the players, coaches, or the league wanted to continue the game.  I get that it messed with the seedings but life and death trumps football.
Soft society today. If he died stopping the game would not stop that. These players claim they are warriors and soldiers and completely meltdown when one guy goes down.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on January 26, 2023, 01:50:01 AM
While I am sensitive to the situation that occurred, I think I agree with your assessment here.  I guess I could look up the answer but were the paying fans in attendance offered a refund, partial refund or any sort of compensation?
The fans at the game got refunds.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 26, 2023, 10:43:31 AM
Soft society today. If he died stopping the game would not stop that. These players claim they are warriors and soldiers and completely meltdown when one guy goes down.

We are definitely raising a generation of sissies, but that doesn't apply to this situation.  This is isn't war.  It's a game. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on January 26, 2023, 09:13:59 PM
It can be.  If I may?

I think that public prayer stems from the Nazarene's statement that "...for where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am with them".

The Nazarene spoke against the BS of the Pharisees and Sadducee's practice of praying loudly in public as it was nothing but self promotion.

Hollyweirdos and the Kneelgroes of the NFL (and they come in all pigments) are the real "virtue signalers".  Fuck them all.

And so you know whereof I speak?  There are plenty of false ministers in every religion.  I had no religion, I followed Jesus of Nazareth and His Word.  When I came to the conclusion that I could no longer live it I gave up my claim of being Christian. 

You cannot serve God and your ego.

That is a big problem with today's religious "leaders".

You cannot serve the public and your ego.

This is THE problem with so many political "leaders".   Especially so the Democraps and RINOs.
Most people like The Scott like to play the field.. "I'm not Christian but blah blah blah. The fact is, when it comes to public prayer, it was meant for the church. Jesus could NOT have been more clear bout prayer outside the church.
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Here is were religion fails .. Jim, and Bob and Karen hate that they can't display this widely accepted behavior in front of their friends so they purposely choose to ignore what Jesuis said or say Jesus didn't really know what he was saying. In either case they identify themselves as virtue signalers.

Now I give leniency to the players on the field during such an event. I support that.. I think it fits. But the pregame, precongress, pre anything prayer violates Jesus' instructions so I have to conclude logically, its all about themselves
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on January 27, 2023, 01:35:00 AM
We are definitely raising a generation of sissies, but that doesn't apply to this situation.  This is isn't war.  It's a game.
The players are the ones calling it a battle and the season a war.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on January 27, 2023, 07:17:23 AM
Most people like The Scott like to play the field.. "I'm not Christian but blah blah blah. The fact is, when it comes to public prayer, it was meant for the church. Jesus could NOT have been more clear bout prayer outside the church.
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Here is were religion fails .. Jim, and Bob and Karen hate that they can't display this widely accepted behavior in front of their friends so they purposely choose to ignore what Jesuis said or say Jesus didn't really know what he was saying. In either case they identify themselves as virtue signalers.

Now I give leniency to the players on the field during such an event. I support that.. I think it fits. But the pregame, precongress, pre anything prayer violates Jesus' instructions so I have to conclude logically, its all about themselves

I do not "play the field".  I lost my faith but understand far better than you what the Nazarene spoke of.  But then neither do I claim to be that which I am not, i.e., a Christian.  Don't like it?  BFD.  I speak the truth about the Nazarene and libtards.  The latter is why you are sooooo 'broffended" by my words.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on January 27, 2023, 07:54:26 PM
I do not "play the field".  I lost my faith but understand far better than you what the Nazarene spoke of.  But then neither do I claim to be that which I am not, i.e., a Christian.  Don't like it?  BFD.  I speak the truth about the Nazarene and libtards.  The latter is why you are sooooo 'broffended" by my words.

we can agree to disagree. You know what you are, I know what you are.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 27, 2023, 10:38:50 PM
The players are the ones calling it a battle and the season a war.

Whomever is saying that is wrong.  No comparison between service members, actual combat and a bunch guys playing a game. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on January 28, 2023, 08:00:01 AM
we can agree to disagree. You know what you are, I know what you are.

What I am, in this instance, is correct.    And I can agree to disagree in an agreeable way.  Be well.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on February 01, 2023, 08:10:56 PM
Prayer is about intent.  The church (a body of believers...not a building) should pray righteously to commune with the Father.  If the intent in prayer is self-promotion then you're in error like the Pharisees.  Jesus prayed publicly and privately exhibiting only righteousness either way....be like Jesus. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: ThisisOverload on February 01, 2023, 09:45:08 PM
Prayer is about intent.  The church (a body of believers...not a building) should pray righteously to commune with the Father.  If the intent in prayer is self-promotion then you're in error like the Pharisees.  Jesus prayed publicly and privately exhibiting only righteousness either way....be like Jesus.

Praying is fine by me if that's your thing.

But making a public spectacle about it is just silly.

If you pray 3-4 hours later will God ignore you?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on February 02, 2023, 09:29:41 AM
Praying is fine by me if that's your thing.

But making a public spectacle about it is just silly.

If you pray 3-4 hours later will God ignore you?

Nah brother, you ain't wrong.  Most public prayer is purely a spectacle for self-promotion.   It's the nonsense of this "look at me, looke at me" era...it enter the church too.  Jesus was way ahead and said whether praying or judging don't be a freakin hypocrite LOL.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on February 03, 2023, 10:07:02 PM
Nah brother, you ain't wrong.  Most public prayer is purely a spectacle for self-promotion.   It's the nonsense of this "look at me, looke at me" era...it enter the church too.  Jesus was way ahead and said whether praying or judging don't be a freakin hypocrite LOL.

I could not agree more and may I say, welcome back. You were sorely missed. And though we disagreed more often than not. You were always civil
ree
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on February 09, 2023, 08:19:27 PM
I could not agree more and may I say, welcome back. You were sorely missed. And though we disagreed more often than not. You were always civil
ree
Glad you're doin well!!  Yes I've missed some of the back and forth, but in the end my "walls of text" days are behind me LOL!  I realized the error of my ways and have abandoned trying to be "the smartest guy in the room".  I just share my faith now and answer questions as simply as i'm able to.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on February 12, 2023, 10:24:02 PM
Glad you're doin well!!  Yes I've missed some of the back and forth, but in the end my "walls of text" days are behind me LOL!  I realized the error of my ways and have abandoned trying to be "the smartest guy in the room".  I just share my faith now and answer questions as simply as i'm able to.

I think we reached the same conclusion
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 13, 2023, 09:42:06 PM
Probably more atheists suffering emotional distress over something they do not believe exists. 

‘NFL legend-turned-coach’ to undergo ‘training’ after atheists complained about ‘religious exercises’
February 11, 2023
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/02/11/nfl-legend-turned-coach-to-undergo-training-after-atheists-complained-about-religious-exercises-1332152/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on February 14, 2023, 12:23:20 AM
Probably more atheists suffering emotional distress over something they do not believe exists. 

‘NFL legend-turned-coach’ to undergo ‘training’ after atheists complained about ‘religious exercises’
February 11, 2023
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/02/11/nfl-legend-turned-coach-to-undergo-training-after-atheists-complained-about-religious-exercises-1332152/
Deon is really ruffling some feathers especially now that he is coaching in the PAC12.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 14, 2023, 11:34:06 PM
Deon is really ruffling some feathers especially now that he is coaching in the PAC12.

Prime Time is doing an amazing job.  Really impressed by him.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on February 15, 2023, 01:02:00 AM
Prime Time is doing an amazing job.  Really impressed by him.
Great recruiter for sure so far.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 16, 2023, 10:23:10 PM
Great recruiter for sure so far.

He is off the chain as a recruiter.  He's going to turn Colorado into a contender. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on February 17, 2023, 01:19:51 AM
He is off the chain as a recruiter.  He's going to turn Colorado into a contender.
He may have already gotten them in trouble by announcing his son would be the starter when he wasn't even in the portal yet. He needs to brush up on NCAA D1 rules.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 27, 2023, 04:42:37 PM
'The world has been watching': How a small service at Asbury took the globe by storm
Haadiza Ogwude
Cincinnati Enquirer
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/02/27/how-asbury-university-revival-started-globe-by-storm/69937478007/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on April 05, 2023, 01:22:17 PM
At least 600 children were sexually abused by Baltimore’s Catholic Church over 60 years, Maryland AG says


Maryland's top prosecutor on Wednesday accused Catholic Church officials in Baltimore of engaging in a yearslong coverup of the sexual abuse of 600-plus children, some of whom were “preyed upon by multiple abusers over decades."

State Attorney General Anthony Brown chronicled the abuse in a 463-page report that named several priests and described their alleged wrongdoing.

"Time and again, members of the Church’s hierarchy resolutely refused to acknowledge allegations of child sexual abuse for as long as possible," according to the report.

"When denial became impossible, Church leadership would remove abusers from the parish or school, sometimes with promises that they would have no further contact with children. Church documents reveal with disturbing clarity that the Archdiocese was more concerned with avoiding scandal and negative publicity than it was with protecting children."

In total, the state found, more than "600 children are known to have been abused by the 156 people included in this Report, but the number is likely far higher."

The sexual abuse was so pervasive, it wasn't uncommon for a young victim to be targeted by more than one adult, according to the report.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/maryland-ag-documents-widespread-sexual-abuse-least-600-victims-baltim-rcna78378
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on April 05, 2023, 09:41:42 PM
At least 600 children were sexually abused by Baltimore’s Catholic Church over 60 years, Maryland AG says


Maryland's top prosecutor on Wednesday accused Catholic Church officials in Baltimore of engaging in a yearslong coverup of the sexual abuse of 600-plus children, some of whom were “preyed upon by multiple abusers over decades."

State Attorney General Anthony Brown chronicled the abuse in a 463-page report that named several priests and described their alleged wrongdoing.

"Time and again, members of the Church’s hierarchy resolutely refused to acknowledge allegations of child sexual abuse for as long as possible," according to the report.

"When denial became impossible, Church leadership would remove abusers from the parish or school, sometimes with promises that they would have no further contact with children. Church documents reveal with disturbing clarity that the Archdiocese was more concerned with avoiding scandal and negative publicity than it was with protecting children."

In total, the state found, more than "600 children are known to have been abused by the 156 people included in this Report, but the number is likely far higher."

The sexual abuse was so pervasive, it wasn't uncommon for a young victim to be targeted by more than one adult, according to the report.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/maryland-ag-documents-widespread-sexual-abuse-least-600-victims-baltim-rcna78378

Just seems like to me, an outsider looking in, that a God who would stand by and allow that to happen in his name, wouldn't be something worthy of worshipping or loving. It almost seems like that God is a figment of peoples imagination when stuff like this comes to light
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on April 20, 2023, 10:08:45 PM
is this even debatable in 2023?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on April 20, 2023, 10:09:48 PM
Glad you're doin well!!  Yes I've missed some of the back and forth, but in the end my "walls of text" days are behind me LOL!  I realized the error of my ways and have abandoned trying to be "the smartest guy in the room".  I just share my faith now and answer questions as simply as i'm able to.


Hope you are still doing well. If you need anything, PM me
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: DIABOLIC on May 15, 2023, 02:39:19 PM
Why do people pray when we have data available on health, financial etc circumstances of religious vs non religious people. Generally speaking religious people have worse lives and lower IQ. What good does praying do?

If you have a deep desire to submit to a higher/imaginary entity you are technically a beta male. No ifs or buts about it.

It always makes my day brighter when I realise there are so many people out there who believe in things like heaven, hell, souls etc. Morons help you get ahead in life.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 16, 2023, 01:50:08 AM
Why do people pray when we have data available on health, financial etc circumstances of religious vs non religious people. Generally speaking religious people have worse lives and lower IQ. What good does praying do?

If you have a deep desire to submit to a higher/imaginary entity you are technically a beta male. No ifs or buts about it.

It always makes my day brighter when I realise there are so many people out there who believe in things like heaven, hell, souls etc. Morons help you get ahead in life.
I don't know if religious people have worse lives. Atheists are much more likely to be depressed, commit suicide or homicide.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 16, 2023, 10:02:36 PM
I don't know if religious people have worse lives. Atheists are much more likely to be depressed, commit suicide or homicide.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-men/201812/the-mental-health-atheists-and-the-nones

Not so fast...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 16, 2023, 10:06:28 PM
Why do people pray when we have data available on health, financial etc circumstances of religious vs non religious people. Generally speaking religious people have worse lives and lower IQ. What good does praying do?

If you have a deep desire to submit to a higher/imaginary entity you are technically a beta male. No ifs or buts about it.

It always makes my day brighter when I realise there are so many people out there who believe in things like heaven, hell, souls etc. Morons help you get ahead in life.

Atheists tend to have more education. I don't know if that equates to IQ

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201402/why-are-educated-people-more-likely-be-atheists
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 17, 2023, 12:20:43 AM
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-men/201812/the-mental-health-atheists-and-the-nones

Not so fast...
That study says that atheists have better mental health than "nones" which means non religious. It also states that religious people have better mental health.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 17, 2023, 07:04:33 PM
That study says that atheists have better mental health than "nones" which means non religious. It also states that religious people have better mental health.

"For example, a just-published study by Dr. Joseph Baker at East Tennessee State University indicates that atheists have the best mental health among the "nones," similar to that of the highly-religious. In contrast, "non-affiliated theists" had the poorest mental health."

It just seems your "atheists are much more likely to be depressed commit suicide...." doesn't jive with the study. "Similar to that of the highly religious" means atheists and highly religious are about the same. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on May 18, 2023, 12:27:37 PM
At least 600 children were sexually abused by Baltimore’s Catholic Church over 60 years, Maryland AG says


Maryland's top prosecutor on Wednesday accused Catholic Church officials in Baltimore of engaging in a yearslong coverup of the sexual abuse of 600-plus children, some of whom were “preyed upon by multiple abusers over decades."

State Attorney General Anthony Brown chronicled the abuse in a 463-page report that named several priests and described their alleged wrongdoing.

"Time and again, members of the Church’s hierarchy resolutely refused to acknowledge allegations of child sexual abuse for as long as possible," according to the report.

"When denial became impossible, Church leadership would remove abusers from the parish or school, sometimes with promises that they would have no further contact with children. Church documents reveal with disturbing clarity that the Archdiocese was more concerned with avoiding scandal and negative publicity than it was with protecting children."

In total, the state found, more than "600 children are known to have been abused by the 156 people included in this Report, but the number is likely far higher."

The sexual abuse was so pervasive, it wasn't uncommon for a young victim to be targeted by more than one adult, according to the report.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/maryland-ag-documents-widespread-sexual-abuse-least-600-victims-baltim-rcna78378


Just disgusting....those poor kiddos.  I can imagine being a Daddy to one of those kids.  I can imagine my own teenage daughter being a victim and the sadness and rage I would feel.

We had a newly hired youth pastor that made "advances" at a young boy in our church.  Fortunately the kiddo was brave enough to take action and this "pastor" had charges pressed against him.

Another church I grew up in had a new lead pastor that had an adulterous relationship with a woman in the administration staff of the church.  He was found out, refused council and left.

A lot of garbage, imposters out there in church leadership.  Lot of theological heresy. Just a lot of anti-God folks cleverly disguised in piety.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on May 18, 2023, 12:31:46 PM


Hope you are still doing well. If you need anything, PM me

Hey brother doin well!!  Work pace been unrelenting but God willing I'm surviving 👍
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 24, 2023, 12:06:07 AM
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-men/201812/the-mental-health-atheists-and-the-nones

Not so fast...

"Much research indicates that religious people as a group tend to have better mental health than the 'nones' as a group."
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 24, 2023, 01:52:41 AM
"Much research indicates that religious people as a group tend to have better mental health than the 'nones' as a group."
This is not a surprise.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on May 24, 2023, 10:55:41 AM
"Much research indicates that religious people as a group tend to have better mental health than the 'nones' as a group."

underneath your qoute



"However, the studies leading to these conclusions often collapse a variety of different groups (e.g., agnostics, lapsed, unaffiliated, weak atheists, strong atheists) into a single category of "nones," comparing these to a single category of "religious." This binary "lumping" approach loses granular-level information about the many specific sub-groups within the "nones"

and

"For example, a just-published study by Dr. Joseph Baker at East Tennessee State University indicates that atheists have the best mental health among the "nones," similar to that of the highly-religious. In contrast, "non-affiliated theists" had the poorest mental health."
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 24, 2023, 11:32:21 AM
At least 600 children were sexually abused by Baltimore’s Catholic Church over 60 years, Maryland AG says


Maryland's top prosecutor on Wednesday accused Catholic Church officials in Baltimore of engaging in a yearslong coverup of the sexual abuse of 600-plus children, some of whom were “preyed upon by multiple abusers over decades."

State Attorney General Anthony Brown chronicled the abuse in a 463-page report that named several priests and described their alleged wrongdoing.

"Time and again, members of the Church’s hierarchy resolutely refused to acknowledge allegations of child sexual abuse for as long as possible," according to the report.

"When denial became impossible, Church leadership would remove abusers from the parish or school, sometimes with promises that they would have no further contact with children. Church documents reveal with disturbing clarity that the Archdiocese was more concerned with avoiding scandal and negative publicity than it was with protecting children."

In total, the state found, more than "600 children are known to have been abused by the 156 people included in this Report, but the number is likely far higher."

The sexual abuse was so pervasive, it wasn't uncommon for a young victim to be targeted by more than one adult, according to the report.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/maryland-ag-documents-widespread-sexual-abuse-least-600-victims-baltim-rcna78378


We keep seeing more and more of these cases. Now in Illinois. Child abuse on a massive scale.


Catholic clergy in Illinois sexually abused more than 1,900 minors, state attorney general says in report

An investigation has substantiated child abuse claims against Catholic clergy in Illinois by more than 1,900 victims, state Attorney General Kwame Raoul said in a news conference detailing the findings of the office's five-year investigation that uncovered hundreds more cases than first reported by the dioceses in 2018.

More than 100,000 pages of diocesan documents and 600 confidential contacts with survivors of child sex abuse helped the state's office piece together the 696-page report released Tuesday on clergy sexual abuse in all six Catholic dioceses in Illinois, the office said.

Raoul's predecessor, former Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan, began investigating the scope of state clergy sexual abuse in 2018 after a Pennsylvania grand jury report documented the abuse of 1,000 minors in six dioceses in that state, the office said. The revelations in that report shocked dioceses around the country and numerous state attorneys general pledged to investigate clergy within their own states – Illinois included.

At that time, the Catholic dioceses of Illinois publicly listed only 103 substantiated child sex abusers, the office said.

The investigation covered all six Illinois dioceses — Chicago, Belleville, Joliet, Peoria, Rockford and Springfield — which serve the state's 3.5 million Catholics. Investigators substantiated child sex abuse allegations against 451 clerics and religious brothers. The largest number was in Chicago, where there were 150 reported abusers, and Joliet, with 52 reported abusers, the report found. Since some reported abusers were registered in two dioceses, there were a total of 494 substantiated abusers reported, the report said.

The report discloses the names of 451 substantiated child sex abusers and provided narratives and details on the abuse they committed while serving the Church. Some had a single victim, while others had dozens. One who died in 2015 abused 36 children while serving in the Diocese of Davenport, Iowa, and in Joliet; before retiring in 2005, another abused two children in the Diocese of Peoria. Yet another priest raped a 10-year-old girl in his classroom, the report said.

The depth and breadth of the sexual abuse varied – as did the punishments they received, the report states. In many instances, allegations were reported and not acted upon, the report found. In 1993, two survivors accused one priest at the Chicago Diocese of abuse, but the review board did not recommend that the priest be punished, the report said. Instead, the clergy had him monitored and he was still allowed to meet with teenage girls, the report found. The abuse continued and at least three more survivors reported abuse at the hands of the priest until in 2002 - almost a decade later – he was removed from the clergy, the report said. 

One priest accused of abusing numerous young boys was known by the parish children as "Happy Hands," the report said, but he evaded punishment for years. Prosecutors often declined to move the case forward — an assistant state's attorney told Our Lady of the Snows parishioners, "It was our decision not to put the children through any court process, because we feel that our goal can be achieved without doing that," the report said. The priest moved from parish to parish after accusations against him started in 1990 but he didn't leave the Catholic church until 2008, the report said. He was never punished for his alleged abuses, the report said, and instead, he resides at "his cottage—the same residence where he had been accused so many times of abusing young boys."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illinois-catholic-clergy-sexually-abused-over-1900-minors/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: AbrahamG on May 24, 2023, 05:05:32 PM
"Much research indicates that religious people as a group tend to have better mental health than the 'nones' as a group."

Probably because reality sucks and they are living a fairy tale.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 24, 2023, 05:56:35 PM
Probably because reality sucks and they are living a fairy tale.

Some kneel in prayer and hope for that which is good in all ways while others kneel in truckstop stalls and filthy port-a-potties hoping for nothing more than a random cock to suck or fuck.  And later pray in fear they don't contract AIDS. 

I would say the former is far  more honorable, brother.   I have been dead three times.  Think about what that is like and realize that I know what awaits us all. You are a good man with a great sense of humor but like I said, I know what is coming and it ain't some smelly, greasey fat trucker. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on May 24, 2023, 11:28:46 PM
Probably because reality sucks and they are living a fairy tale.

I'm "religious" because I believe in God and consider myself a Christian.  My reality is awesome.  And I am kinda living a fairy tale, but it's a good thing.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 25, 2023, 12:12:03 AM
We keep seeing more and more of these cases. Now in Illinois. Child abuse on a massive scale.


Catholic clergy in Illinois sexually abused more than 1,900 minors, state attorney general says in report

An investigation has substantiated child abuse claims against Catholic clergy in Illinois by more than 1,900 victims, state Attorney General Kwame Raoul said in a news conference detailing the findings of the office's five-year investigation that uncovered hundreds more cases than first reported by the dioceses in 2018.

More than 100,000 pages of diocesan documents and 600 confidential contacts with survivors of child sex abuse helped the state's office piece together the 696-page report released Tuesday on clergy sexual abuse in all six Catholic dioceses in Illinois, the office said.

Raoul's predecessor, former Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan, began investigating the scope of state clergy sexual abuse in 2018 after a Pennsylvania grand jury report documented the abuse of 1,000 minors in six dioceses in that state, the office said. The revelations in that report shocked dioceses around the country and numerous state attorneys general pledged to investigate clergy within their own states – Illinois included.

At that time, the Catholic dioceses of Illinois publicly listed only 103 substantiated child sex abusers, the office said.

The investigation covered all six Illinois dioceses — Chicago, Belleville, Joliet, Peoria, Rockford and Springfield — which serve the state's 3.5 million Catholics. Investigators substantiated child sex abuse allegations against 451 clerics and religious brothers. The largest number was in Chicago, where there were 150 reported abusers, and Joliet, with 52 reported abusers, the report found. Since some reported abusers were registered in two dioceses, there were a total of 494 substantiated abusers reported, the report said.

The report discloses the names of 451 substantiated child sex abusers and provided narratives and details on the abuse they committed while serving the Church. Some had a single victim, while others had dozens. One who died in 2015 abused 36 children while serving in the Diocese of Davenport, Iowa, and in Joliet; before retiring in 2005, another abused two children in the Diocese of Peoria. Yet another priest raped a 10-year-old girl in his classroom, the report said.

The depth and breadth of the sexual abuse varied – as did the punishments they received, the report states. In many instances, allegations were reported and not acted upon, the report found. In 1993, two survivors accused one priest at the Chicago Diocese of abuse, but the review board did not recommend that the priest be punished, the report said. Instead, the clergy had him monitored and he was still allowed to meet with teenage girls, the report found. The abuse continued and at least three more survivors reported abuse at the hands of the priest until in 2002 - almost a decade later – he was removed from the clergy, the report said. 

One priest accused of abusing numerous young boys was known by the parish children as "Happy Hands," the report said, but he evaded punishment for years. Prosecutors often declined to move the case forward — an assistant state's attorney told Our Lady of the Snows parishioners, "It was our decision not to put the children through any court process, because we feel that our goal can be achieved without doing that," the report said. The priest moved from parish to parish after accusations against him started in 1990 but he didn't leave the Catholic church until 2008, the report said. He was never punished for his alleged abuses, the report said, and instead, he resides at "his cottage—the same residence where he had been accused so many times of abusing young boys."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illinois-catholic-clergy-sexually-abused-over-1900-minors/
Individual clergy doing bad things does not mean God doesn't exist or that religion in general is bad.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: The Scott on May 25, 2023, 07:14:07 AM
Individual clergy doing bad things does not mean God doesn't exist or that religion in general is bad.

By the term "religion" we have all witnessed the debauchery and worse of MEN called the "will of God".   I do not hold "God"responsible for what men do but I damn sure question His existence when He does NOTHING about these men.  There is no sin in asking WTF of this inaction from a being that had no problem putting to death the literal innocents of Egypt in order to free the real Israelite Nation and yet will not send a single angel from the head of a pin to help a child being molested by a priest, an imam and Democrat voters and Biden & Co.

Fuck all Democrats and RINOs.  They are supporters of pedophilia, child mutilation and the destruction of civilization.  They are here in the form of all who stand against Mr. Trump and for the Democrat Party.  Ask God WTF about Him taking out the Dems and all of islime.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on May 26, 2023, 01:49:36 AM
By the term "religion" we have all witnessed the debauchery and worse of MEN called the "will of God".   I do not hold "God"responsible for what men do but I damn sure question His existence when He does NOTHING about these men.  There is no sin in asking WTF of this inaction from a being that had no problem putting to death the literal innocents of Egypt in order to free the real Israelite Nation and yet will not send a single angel from the head of a pin to help a child being molested by a priest, an imam and Democrat voters and Biden & Co.

Fuck all Democrats and RINOs.  They are supporters of pedophilia, child mutilation and the destruction of civilization.  They are here in the form of all who stand against Mr. Trump and for the Democrat Party.  Ask God WTF about Him taking out the Dems and all of islime.
We are infinite beings and this life is so short.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on May 26, 2023, 11:38:03 AM
Individual clergy doing bad things does not mean God doesn't exist or that religion in general is bad.

One of the issues these cases highlight is that it's not just the sick individual clergy who abused children but the church also tried to cover up the abuse.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on June 13, 2023, 04:33:44 PM
Man arrested while citing Bible verse in protest of Pride event, then video evidence sinks case

Charges were dropped against a self-professing Christian "street preacher" who was arrested while citing the Bible in protest of an LGBTQ Pride event in Reading, Pennsylvania, authorities said.

Damon Atkins was arrested June 6 for "disorderly conduct, engaged in fighting," but the charges were dropped after an official review of video evidence, the Berks County District Attorney's Office said in a press release.

"The charges were withdrawn after the District Attorney’s Office reviewed the videos of the incident along with applicable case law," the statement said.

Berks County Commissioner Christian Leinbach had told the Lancaster Patriot that he believed the arrest of Atkins was "unlawful" and "could open the City of Reading and their police department to legal action."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-arrested-citing-bible-verse-protest-pride-event-video-evidence-sinks-case
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on June 14, 2023, 12:55:11 AM
Man arrested while citing Bible verse in protest of Pride event, then video evidence sinks case

Charges were dropped against a self-professing Christian "street preacher" who was arrested while citing the Bible in protest of an LGBTQ Pride event in Reading, Pennsylvania, authorities said.

Damon Atkins was arrested June 6 for "disorderly conduct, engaged in fighting," but the charges were dropped after an official review of video evidence, the Berks County District Attorney's Office said in a press release.

"The charges were withdrawn after the District Attorney’s Office reviewed the videos of the incident along with applicable case law," the statement said.

Berks County Commissioner Christian Leinbach had told the Lancaster Patriot that he believed the arrest of Atkins was "unlawful" and "could open the City of Reading and their police department to legal action."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-arrested-citing-bible-verse-protest-pride-event-video-evidence-sinks-case
That is America today. It's a crime to NOT support sodomy and sodomites.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on June 15, 2023, 09:40:54 AM
That is America today. It's a crime to NOT support sodomy and sodomites.

Told my wife and family about 12 years ago that within 25 years religious freedoms will be outlawed in the US.  Now it will primarily if not completely focus on silencing Christianity but no shock there.  We're steadily arriving at that point.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 15, 2023, 02:28:02 PM
Told my wife and family about 12 years ago that within 25 years religious freedoms will be outlawed in the US.  Now it will primarily if not completely focus on silencing Christianity but no shock there.  We're steadily arriving at that point.

We are absolutely headed towards Biblical views on things like homosexuality and marriage being criminalized.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 15, 2023, 08:42:14 PM
13 years from now religious freedoms will not be outlawed. We can just stop pretending that is going to happen in our lifetime.

And we are absolutely NOT heading towards biblical views on things like homosexuality and marriage being criminalized. Definitely agree we are heading towards putting less and less importance on what that book says about most anything which is not a bad thing.. but criminalizing it? Not even close
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on June 16, 2023, 12:06:28 AM
13 years from now religious freedoms will not be outlawed. We can just stop pretending that is going to happen in our lifetime.

And we are absolutely NOT heading towards biblical views on things like homosexuality and marriage being criminalized. Definitely agree we are heading towards putting less and less importance on what that book says about most anything which is not a bad thing.. but criminalizing it? Not even close

Yeah.  Not even close.  I mean we would never see something like government trying to scrutinize Christian sermons.  Would never happen.

Houston withdraws legal demand to see pastors' sermons in gay rights battle
City still seeks wide range of church documents
Pastors campaigning to repeal gay rights ordinance
Associated Press in Houston
Fri 17 Oct 2014

Houston city attorneys are no longer seeking through subpoenas sermons from five pastors who publicly opposed an ordinance banning discrimination against gay and transgender residents.

Mayor Annise Parker said on Friday that the city was backing off the sermon request but would not withdraw the subpoenas, which seek other information from the pastors as part of a lawsuit over a petition drive to repeal the equal rights ordinance.

“They were too broad,” Parker said at a news conference. “They were typical attorney language in a discovery motion. They were asking for everything but the kitchen sink.”

While the word “sermons” was being deleted from the subpoenas, the revised request for other speeches or presentations was appropriate, Parker said.

“This is not about what anyone is preaching; this is not about their religion; it’s not about the free exercise of religion,” she said. “It is our right to defend the city and asking legitimate questions about the petition process.”

In May, the city council passed the equal rights ordinance, which consolidates city bans on discrimination based on sex, race, age, religion and other categories and increases protections for gay and transgender residents. Parker, who is gay, and other supporters said the measure is about offering protections at the local level against all forms of discrimination in housing, employment and services provided by private businesses such as hotels and restaurants.

Religious institutions are exempt, but city attorneys recently subpoenaed the pastors, seeking all speeches, presentations or sermons related to the repeal petition.

Christian activists had sued after city officials ruled they did not collect enough signatures to get the question on the ballot. The city secretary initially counted enough signatures, but then the city attorney David Feldman ruled that more than half of the pages of the petition were invalid.

Erik Stanley, senior legal counsel for Alliance Defending Freedom, a Christian religious rights legal organisation that filed the motion to quash the subpoenas, said the city “still doesn’t get it”.

“It thinks that by changing nothing in its subpoenas other than to remove the word ‘sermons’ that it has solved the problem,” Stanley said. “That solves nothing.”

Subpoenas still demand 17 different categories of information that encompass speeches made by the pastors and private communications with their church members, he said.

“They must be rescinded entirely,” Stanley said, contending the city needs to respect first amendment religious freedoms.

Feldman said that the subpoenas were routine in the give-and-take between lawyers in a lawsuit and that the now-contentious matter could have been defused in negotiations involving attorneys for both sides.

“They decided to make it a media circus,” he said.

The controversy has touched a nerve among religious conservatives around the country, already anxious about the rapid spread of gay rights and what it might mean for faith groups that object. Religious groups, including some that support civil rights protections for gays, have protested the subpoenas as a violation of religious freedom.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/17/houston-withdraws-legal-demand-pastors-sermons-gay-rights
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on July 16, 2023, 10:55:55 PM
13 years from now religious freedoms will not be outlawed. We can just stop pretending that is going to happen in our lifetime.

And we are absolutely NOT heading towards biblical views on things like homosexuality and marriage being criminalized. Definitely agree we are heading towards putting less and less importance on what that book says about most anything which is not a bad thing.. but criminalizing it? Not even close

Let's hope you're correct!
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on July 17, 2023, 12:27:21 AM
13 years from now religious freedoms will not be outlawed. We can just stop pretending that is going to happen in our lifetime.

And we are absolutely NOT heading towards biblical views on things like homosexuality and marriage being criminalized. Definitely agree we are heading towards putting less and less importance on what that book says about most anything which is not a bad thing.. but criminalizing it? Not even close
The Left is foaming at the mouth to limit religious freedom and will do so if they have the power. They have already discussed taking away tax exempt status if they feel a religious leader favors republicans. Mormons do not allow gays to get married in their church or temples and BYU would kick gays out of school and I think that will be challenged very soon.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 17, 2023, 04:28:38 PM
The Left is foaming at the mouth to limit religious freedom and will do so if they have the power. They have already discussed taking away tax exempt status if they feel a religious leader favors republicans. Mormons do not allow gays to get married in their church or temples and BYU would kick gays out of school and I think that will be challenged very soon.

uses the podium for political reasons is more accurate and I agree with it
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on July 18, 2023, 12:54:47 AM
uses the podium for political reasons is more accurate and I agree with it
It only goes one way. Liberal preachers can preach their left wing shit and it isn't even mentioned.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Man of Steel on July 18, 2023, 09:10:50 AM
Yep churches today, in various denominations, are abandoning God's holy, objective standards in favor of employing subjective, liberal, woke, progressive politics.  Will only get worse.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 18, 2023, 07:29:58 PM
It only goes one way. Liberal preachers can preach their left wing shit and it isn't even mentioned.

Liberal preachers are rare, but if they are using their position to push politics, yank that tax free status.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 18, 2023, 07:30:33 PM
Yep churches today, in various denominations, are abandoning God's holy, objective standards in favor of employing subjective, liberal, woke, progressive politics.  Will only get worse.


or better...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on July 19, 2023, 12:32:25 AM
Liberal preachers are rare, but if they are using their position to push politics, yank that tax free status.
No, they aren't rare. Black churches in the inner cities are almost all liberal.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on July 19, 2023, 06:48:06 PM
No, they aren't rare. Black churches in the inner cities are almost all liberal.

This. Several churches do it, albeit more covertly so they won't risk having to pay taxes like the rest of us. The religious tax-exempt legislation should be re-evaluated from the ground up. You have pastors who live in multi-million dollar mansions and pay no taxes because they claim it as parsonage, living an extravagant lifestyle and flying on their private jets or you have Scientology that uses the religious legal façade to cover up its multitudinous crimes. Meanwhile a family man busting his ass to provide home and food for his family gets taxed in every way.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 19, 2023, 08:17:37 PM
No, they aren't rare. Black churches in the inner cities are almost all liberal.

Having read your response, you seem to be a solid poster, I did some research. You sir are correct. I stand corrected. My initial comment stands though and that is if ANY church uses their pulpit for political reasons they should lose their tax exempt status. I am actually for implementing taxes on mega churches as well.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on July 21, 2023, 08:47:17 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/21/state-cant-force-atheist-inmate-to-complete-substance-abuse-program-judge-rules

State can’t force atheist inmate to complete substance abuse program, US judge rules
Judge in West Virginia says it would ‘impinge on rights’ of incarcerated atheist to participate in religiously affiliated program

sounds reasonable. Surely they can come up with a substance abuse program that doesn't invoke a higher power?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on August 30, 2023, 07:18:07 PM
But he was competent when he abused the boy. Why didn't they charge him earlier?


Former US Cardinal McCarrick not competent to face sex abuse trial, judge says

A Massachusetts judge on Wednesday dismissed a criminal case charging former Roman Catholic Cardinal Theodore McCarrick with molesting a 16-year-old boy in 1974, saying the 93-year-old was not competent to stand trial after psychological experts found he had dementia.

McCarrick, a former archbishop of Washington, D.C., who was defrocked by Pope Francis in 2019, became the only current or former U.S. Catholic cardinal to ever face child sex abuse charges when prosecutors in Massachusetts first charged him in 2021.

He was charged in April in a separate, ongoing criminal sexual assault case in Wisconsin involving the same alleged victim, who prosecutors said was fondled by McCarrick when he was 18 years old while staying as a guest at a cabin in 1977.

But on Wednesday, Judge Paul McCallum in Dedham granted prosecutors' request to dismiss three counts of indecent assault and battery over the 1974 incident, after a psychologist retained by the prosecution testified she believed McCarrick had dementia.

Kerry Nelligan, the psychologist, testified that when she met with McCarrick in June, he was often unable to recall what they discussed and that his condition rendered him unable to meaningfully participate in his own defense.

McCarrick was expelled from the Roman Catholic priesthood in 2019 after a Vatican investigation found him guilty of sexual crimes against minors and adults.

A Vatican report in November 2020 found that McCarrick rose through the church's ranks despite rumors of sexual misconduct and that Pope John Paul II promoted him despite knowing the allegations.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/former-us-cardinal-mccarrick-not-competent-face-sex-abuse-trial-judge-says-2023-08-30/
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on October 31, 2023, 10:56:39 AM
What does "religious fundamentalist" mean and does anyone actually call themselves religious fundamentalists?

Jen Psaki bashes GOP Speaker Mike Johnson for being a 'religious fundamentalist'
'It’s not just his political ideology that should scare us,' Psaki said of the new speaker of the House Sunday
By Jeffrey Clark Fox News
Published October 30, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/media/jen-psaki-bashes-gop-speaker-mike-johnson-religious-fundamentalist
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2023, 08:35:45 PM
What does "religious fundamentalist" mean and does anyone actually call themselves religious fundamentalists?

Jen Psaki bashes GOP Speaker Mike Johnson for being a 'religious fundamentalist'
'It’s not just his political ideology that should scare us,' Psaki said of the new speaker of the House Sunday
By Jeffrey Clark Fox News
Published October 30, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/media/jen-psaki-bashes-gop-speaker-mike-johnson-religious-fundamentalist

It's easy to google so I won't bother cutting and pasting but it's a good for people to know.

I have a Christian fundamentalist friend that I met in the military. Back then he was normal. His wife was a little odd, had an affair on him that he forgave her for, but he seemed normal.
Recently reunited with him after 30 years. Both are total nutcases. Bible this, Jesus that... could not hold a conversation with him that didn't revert back to Jesus. If the bible says it, it's true. If it sounds like the bible is saying something wrong, like it's ok to beat your slaves as long as you don't kill them, then it's just that we don't understand it.
This change in him was such a drastic one.. then I found out later that a few years before, he was operating a forklift at work and dropped something on a coworker killing him. His wife told me he was distraught, depressed, huge guilt of course... that's when he turned to the bible. And presto, Jesus forgave him and his is a soldier for Christ since then.. Kind of made sense after hearing that...
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Skeletor on October 31, 2023, 08:56:07 PM
What does "religious fundamentalist" mean and does anyone actually call themselves religious fundamentalists?

Jen Psaki bashes GOP Speaker Mike Johnson for being a 'religious fundamentalist'
'It’s not just his political ideology that should scare us,' Psaki said of the new speaker of the House Sunday
By Jeffrey Clark Fox News
Published October 30, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/media/jen-psaki-bashes-gop-speaker-mike-johnson-religious-fundamentalist

I don't care what a professional liar like "circle back" Psaki says. She would find something against Johnson anyway since he is not Democrat.

Now, from the article, these are Johnson's words:

"People are curious, what does Mike Johnson think about any issue under the sun? I said, Well, go pick up a Bible off your shelf and read it. That’s my worldview."

So he plainly states that the Bible dictates his position on all issues (or that all his positions coincide with the bible). Hearing someone say that, and even replacing "Bible" with "Quran" or "Talmud", I would think the person is a religious fundamentalist and I would not want them in a position of power to dictate what other people do. The main issues in my opinion are whether he thinks the Bible or his religious beliefs are above "man-made" laws and how he would enforce these beliefs on others, especially those who are not part of his religion. So far he sounds a little like Pence.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2023, 09:10:42 PM
I don't care what a professional liar like "circle back" Psaki says. She would find something against Johnson anyway since he is not Democrat.

Now, from the article, these are Johnson's words:

"People are curious, what does Mike Johnson think about any issue under the sun? I said, Well, go pick up a Bible off your shelf and read it. That’s my worldview."

So he plainly states that the Bible dictates his position on all issues (or that all his positions coincide with the bible). Hearing someone say that, and even replacing "Bible" with "Quran" or "Talmud", I would think the person is a religious fundamentalist and I would not want them in a position of power to dictate what other people do. The main issues in my opinion are whether he thinks the Bible or his religious beliefs are above "man-made" laws and how he would enforce these beliefs on others, especially those who are not part of his religion. So far he sounds a little like Pence.

I would have that same concern. Typically Fundamentalists hold the bible over man made laws. Personally, anyone in a position of power that believes every word of the bible, scares me.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 01, 2023, 01:02:12 AM
It's easy to google so I won't bother cutting and pasting but it's a good for people to know.

I have a Christian fundamentalist friend that I met in the military. Back then he was normal. His wife was a little odd, had an affair on him that he forgave her for, but he seemed normal.
Recently reunited with him after 30 years. Both are total nutcases. Bible this, Jesus that... could not hold a conversation with him that didn't revert back to Jesus. If the bible says it, it's true. If it sounds like the bible is saying something wrong, like it's ok to beat your slaves as long as you don't kill them, then it's just that we don't understand it.
This change in him was such a drastic one.. then I found out later that a few years before, he was operating a forklift at work and dropped something on a coworker killing him. His wife told me he was distraught, depressed, huge guilt of course... that's when he turned to the bible. And presto, Jesus forgave him and his is a soldier for Christ since then.. Kind of made sense after hearing that...
Yes, I have known people like that and they become impossible to be around. The good thing is that most of them backslide.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 01, 2023, 06:12:46 PM
I don't care what a professional liar like "circle back" Psaki says. She would find something against Johnson anyway since he is not Democrat.

Now, from the article, these are Johnson's words:

"People are curious, what does Mike Johnson think about any issue under the sun? I said, Well, go pick up a Bible off your shelf and read it. That’s my worldview."

So he plainly states that the Bible dictates his position on all issues (or that all his positions coincide with the bible). Hearing someone say that, and even replacing "Bible" with "Quran" or "Talmud", I would think the person is a religious fundamentalist and I would not want them in a position of power to dictate what other people do. The main issues in my opinion are whether he thinks the Bible or his religious beliefs are above "man-made" laws and how he would enforce these beliefs on others, especially those who are not part of his religion. So far he sounds a little like Pence.

I don't really care what informs his views, so long as he makes good policy decisions. 

But that doesn't really define "religious fundamentalist."  It appears to be a phrase someone invented as a pejorative.  I doubt most people who use the phrase know where it originated or what it actually means.  I don't know what it actually means either.  And I don't know of any group of "religious" people who describe themselves this way. 

Reminds me of an ongoing debate I'm having with a liberal Christian friend who is all over the "Christian Nationalist" movement.  Another phrase that someone invented to demean groups of Christians. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 01, 2023, 06:13:06 PM

you could investigate his links with the New Apostolic Reformation

Why?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 01, 2023, 11:15:33 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/stephen-colbert-gives-new-gop-speaker-holy-hell-in-epic-biblical-smackdown/ar-AA1j8fy7?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=fb8015e4ec4940959d1a4e166e4c4a3b&ei=33#comments
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 02, 2023, 07:53:31 AM
don't worry
it is not going to open your mind but it will tell you some of the thing you will close it against.

You should just clearly state your point instead of speaking in riddles that no one understands.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 03, 2023, 02:57:18 PM
Crazy. 

Former Playboy White House reporter says 'MAGA and Christian nationalism' are 'bigger threat' to US than Hamas
Brian Karem argued that the House under Speaker Johnson 'offers a discount version of the apocalyptic orgasm the holy rollers have dreamed of for years'
By Alexander Hall Fox News
Published November 3, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/media/former-playboy-white-house-reporter-maga-christian-guy-threat-hamas#:~:text=Karem%2C%20who%20was%20famous%20for,than%20Hamas%20could%20ever%20be.%22
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 03, 2023, 08:10:17 PM
Crazy. 

Former Playboy White House reporter says 'MAGA and Christian nationalism' are 'bigger threat' to US than Hamas
Brian Karem argued that the House under Speaker Johnson 'offers a discount version of the apocalyptic orgasm the holy rollers have dreamed of for years'
By Alexander Hall Fox News
Published November 3, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/media/former-playboy-white-house-reporter-maga-christian-guy-threat-hamas#:~:text=Karem%2C%20who%20was%20famous%20for,than%20Hamas%20could%20ever%20be.%22


Probably accurate. We can defend against Hamas. Right wing Christians legislate their hate into law and we are too complacent to see it happening.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 03, 2023, 08:45:08 PM

Probably accurate. We can defend against Hamas. Right wing Christians legislate their hate into law and we are too complacent to see it happening.

Yes the people who rape, mutilate, and murder defenseless women and children are more dangerous than a non-existent group of religious people in America.  It takes a pretty retarded mind to believe that. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 03, 2023, 10:10:06 PM
Yes the people who rape, mutilate, and murder defenseless women and children are more dangerous than a non-existent group of religious people in America.  It takes a pretty retarded mind to believe that.

I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one who knew this would go over your little head.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 03, 2023, 10:21:26 PM
I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one who knew this would go over your little head.

I say this with all sincerity:  you are a simpleton. 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 03, 2023, 10:53:47 PM
I say this with all sincerity:  you are a simpleton.
and you just cemented your position as a doofus
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 03, 2023, 11:17:06 PM
and you just cemented your position as a doofus

You're just not a smart person.  And it's hilarious that you, a simpleton, constantly call people dumb.  But it's ok.  God loves all his children.  Even the dummies like you.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 03, 2023, 11:23:56 PM
You're just not a smart person.  And it's hilarious that you, a simpleton, constantly call people dumb.  But it's ok.  God loves all his children.  Even the dummies like you.   :)

Here's what tickles me. You KNOW I am intelligent. Yet you ignore the Coaches moronic imbecilic posts because the tard happens to share your imbecilic worship of the moron Trump. So not only are you less than a man, you are a follower of a tard the likes of Coach. You have no where to go from here ... but I do want to see your efforts... 
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 03, 2023, 11:35:39 PM
Here's what tickles me. You KNOW I am intelligent. Yet you ignore the Coaches moronic imbecilic posts because the tard happens to share your imbecilic worship of the moron Trump. So not only are you less than a man, you are a follower of a tard the likes of Coach. You have no where to go from here ... but I do want to see your efforts...

I clearly said that I sincerely believe you are a simpleton.  That's the opposite of intelligent.  You're not intelligent.  You're an insecure simpleton.  And the fact you need people on an anonymous message board to either support what you say or criticize someone else is sad. 

I don't ignore Coach's posts.  I literally laugh at how friggin stupid you are when he engages you.  He is smarter and more secure than you.  He doesn't need me to support him.  But an immature, insecure simpleton like you looks for those things on a friggin anonymous message board. 

And just so we are clear:  you are a simpleton, but God loves you anyway.   :)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 07, 2023, 11:07:26 PM
Christian Wedding Photographer Who Declined To Celebrate Same-Sex Marriage Wins Huge Legal Victory
KATE ANDERSON
CONTRIBUTOR
November 06, 2023
https://dailycaller.com/2023/11/06/christian-wedding-photographer-same-sex-marriage-wins-legal-victory/?utm_source=referral&utm_medium=offthepress&utm_campaign=home
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 20, 2023, 09:42:20 AM
New Jersey drops religious oath for political candidates
On a federal level, while many oaths to serve in government include the phrase "so help me, God," others — most notably the presidential oath of office — do not require it.
By The Center Square Staff
Published: November 16, 2023
https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/new-jersey-drops-religious-oath-political-candidates?utm_source=referral&utm_medium=offthepress&utm_campaign=home#google_vignette
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 21, 2023, 12:28:17 AM
"This is an inflection point. We are at a civilizational moment. The only question is: Is God going to allow our nation to enter a time of judgment for our collective sins which his mercy and grace have held back for some time or is he gonna give us one more chance to restore the foundation, to return to Him? . . . We will not be able to do it without the Lord’s help, because the flesh and the mistrust, and the sin and everything is so great here that this is going to have to bring people to their knees."

"You all know the terrible state that we’re in. . . . The faith in our institutions is the lowest it’s ever been in the history of our nation. The culture is so dark and depraved that it almost seems irredeemable at this point. The church attendance in America dropped below 50 percent for the first time in our history since they began to measure the data sixty years ago. And the number of people who do not believe in absolute truth is now above the majority for the first time. One in three teen girls contemplated suicide last year. One in four high school students identify as something other than straight. We’re losing the country."


https://wellversedworld.org/media/ps8jt9w/wpn-call-279-mike-johnson-jody-hice-congress-update-concurrent-resolution-and-motion-to-vacate (https://wellversedworld.org/media/ps8jt9w/wpn-call-279-mike-johnson-jody-hice-congress-update-concurrent-resolution-and-motion-to-vacate)
I do not believe in absolute truth and don't think that's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 21, 2023, 12:27:33 PM
I do not believe in absolute truth and don't think that's a bad thing.

I do.  I think some things are universally right and wrong.  Like abusing children and the elderly.  That is evil.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  On the flip side, caring for children and the elderly is universally good.  There are other issues like this.

I do agree that there is also a lot of gray in many areas. 

Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 22, 2023, 12:16:50 AM
I do.  I think some things are universally right and wrong.  Like abusing children and the elderly.  That is evil.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  On the flip side, caring for children and the elderly is universally good.  There are other issues like this.

I do agree that there is also a lot of gray in many areas.
That's not what he meant.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 22, 2023, 11:34:52 AM
That's not what he meant.

Doesn't absolute truth include universal rights/wrongs?
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 22, 2023, 07:06:17 PM
I do not believe in absolute truth and don't think that's a bad thing.

I'm assuming his absolute truth reference is about God.. and I agree with you.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on November 23, 2023, 01:39:48 AM
I'm assuming his absolute truth reference is about God.. and I agree with you.
God and biblical truths, yep.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 23, 2023, 07:55:10 PM
Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789
Thanksgiving Proclamation
[New York, 3 October 1789]
By the President of the United States of America. a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor—and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me “to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.”

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be—That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks—for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation—for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war—for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed—for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted—for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions—to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually—to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed—to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord—To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us—and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New-York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-04-02-0091
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 23, 2023, 07:57:57 PM
You'd think we would have evolved in over 200 years and it looks like we have. The belief in "the almighty" is at an all time low
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on November 27, 2023, 10:26:28 AM
Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789
Thanksgiving Proclamation
[New York, 3 October 1789]
By the President of the United States of America. a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor—and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me “to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.”

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be—That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks—for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation—for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war—for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed—for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted—for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions—to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually—to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed—to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord—To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us—and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New-York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-04-02-0091

There is George Washington.  Then there is Joe Biden.

Biden Officially Tries to Remove God from Thanksgiving with 2023 Proclamation
Rachel M. Emmanuel, The Western Journal   By Rachel M. Emmanuel, The Western Journal
Published November 22, 2023

When we say the word “Thanks-giving,” it presumes the giving of thanks.

But to whom is that thanks given?

Since the first Thanksgiving on Plymouth Rock and its subsequent establishment as a day of thanks on Oct. 3, 1789, the recipient of that thanks on behalf of the United States of America has always been God.

But in keeping with the destruction of everything good and virtuous in this nation, this year, God has been removed as the recipient of thanks on Thanksgiving.

On Wednesday, President Biden released his Thanksgiving proclamation for 2023.

For the first time in American history, the proclamation completely omitted any reference to God or faith.

As a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values, this disturbing omission shows how far we have strayed from the original spirit behind America’s national day of Thanksgiving.

The pilgrims who celebrated the first Thanksgiving in 1621 were devout Christians fleeing religious persecution. Their celebration followed a brutal first year in the New World, where nearly half their population perished. Despite unimaginable hardship, their faith remained unshaken. They credited God for sustaining them and bringing them their first successful harvest.

This theme carried through the centuries, with presidents honoring God in their Thanksgiving proclamations. George Washington implored all Americans to acknowledge God’s “providence,” and to “unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations.”

On Nov. 28, 1861, Lincoln declared that all government offices would be closed on Thanksgiving Day, writing in his proclamation, “No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things…I do, therefore, invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens.”

Former President Donald Trump proclaimed in his 2020 Thanksgiving address, “On Thanksgiving Day, we thank God for the abundant blessings in our lives…I encourage all Americans to gather, in homes and places of worship, to offer a prayer of thanks to God for our many blessings.”

While some president’s speeches may have been more devout than others over the years, Biden is the first president to delete God from his Thanksgiving proclamation altogether.

In his proclamation, Biden declared, “This Thanksgiving, we are grateful for our Nation and the incredible soul of America.”

Grateful to whom?

Gratitude without a recipient is like a fake Christmas gift under a department store tree. The wrapping is pretty, but it’s ultimately worthless and empty.

Sadly, Thanksgiving has been becoming a more secular holiday with every passing year, and it seems like Biden decided to put the final nail in the coffin.

If we cannot even name the ultimate Source in which all Americans, regardless of creed, are rooted historically, we are adrift from the moorings with no destination and no anchor to hold us firm.

https://thefederalistpapers.org/opinion/biden-officially-tries-remove-god-thanksgiving-2023-proclamation#google_vignette
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 27, 2023, 09:02:08 PM
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2023/11/22/a-proclamation-on-thanksgiving-day-2023/

Here is the actual proclamation. That someone can get offended by it is telling.

I suppose I should be up in arms because Biden did mention Jesus/god in it...

"IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-second day of November, in the year of our Lord two thousand twenty-three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and forty-eighth."

                               JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.

People are just looking for nonsense to whine about.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on January 29, 2024, 01:39:21 PM
Niners QB Brock Purdy after last night's incredible comeback:

“It’s a testament to God and where he’s taken me in life. I put my faith and trust in him and he’s gotten me where I’m at.

When I’m down 17 at the half… ‘Alright God you’ve taken me here. Win or lose I’m gonna glorify you.’ That’s my peace.

https://twitter.com/limajuliettango/status/1751838726597009822
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Agnostic007 on January 29, 2024, 10:05:28 PM
Niners QB Brock Purdy after last night's incredible comeback:

“It’s a testament to God and where he’s taken me in life. I put my faith and trust in him and he’s gotten me where I’m at.

When I’m down 17 at the half… ‘Alright God you’ve taken me here. Win or lose I’m gonna glorify you.’ That’s my peace.

https://twitter.com/limajuliettango/status/1751838726597009822

Not unlike the person who lost two legs in a land mine explosion giving praise to god that he is alive. There really is no bottom or top to the ridiculousness of giving praise to a supernatural being.
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Humble Narcissist on January 30, 2024, 01:47:48 AM
Not unlike the person who lost two legs in a land mine explosion giving praise to god that he is alive. There really is no bottom or top to the ridiculousness of giving praise to a supernatural being.
I would love an athlete to blame God for the loss of a game.  ;D
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 01, 2024, 11:58:42 AM
Speaker Mike Johnson
@SpeakerJohnson

This morning, I joined Congressional colleagues in welcoming President Biden to the U.S. Capitol for the National Prayer Breakfast.

“Commit everything you do to the Lord. Trust him, and he will help you.” Psalm 37:5

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GFREED6bsAAND-s?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Prayer and Religion in Public Life
Post by: Dos Equis on February 06, 2024, 05:51:57 PM
https://icjs.org/the-violent-take-it-by-force/ (https://icjs.org/the-violent-take-it-by-force/)

Neve heard of them.  Sounds like the "Christian Nationalist" boogeyman.