Poll

Do you think the government has a right to make you spay or neuter your pet?

Yes
2 (33.3%)
No
4 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Do you think the government has a right to make you spay or neuter your pet?  (Read 2463 times)

knny187

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 >:(

Government meaning any local, state, or federal government

MisterMagoo

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i think it's a good idea to do so, but for the most part it's stupid to legislate it. there are few legitimate reasons to avoid fixing your animal unless you're planning on breeding or doing shows, frankly.

SinCitysmallGUY

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If they told me I had to Neuter my boys it would be the same if they told me I couldn't have guns. They would have to do so with a gun or something.

MisterMagoo

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If they told me I had to Neuter my boys it would be the same if they told me I couldn't have guns. They would have to do so with a gun or something.

well think of this, too: imagine if you never had sex and couldn't jerk off. :P

Vet

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>:(

Government meaning any local, state, or federal government

It would put a big chink in the the pet (dogs specifically, cats are a bit different) overpopulation problem---my neighbors as an example.  One of them has an intact male pointer---why?  Because you "ruin a good hunting dog if you cut his nuts off" and the other neighbor has an intact female corgi that supposedly she has to breed purebred corgies for her mother to raise and sell.   So far that corgi has had two litters of corgi-pointers.   The last liter the neighbor with the corgi sons supposedly took the corgi down to the pointer the last time she was in heat because they wanted to watch the dogs "do it"----  typical 9-12 year old country kids.  My understanding is that when their mom started questioning about the puppies, one of the boys caved and told what they'd done.   The sad thing is there are now 10 additional dogs taken to the local humane society who, based on breed, may not have as good of a chance of getting adopted as other breeds/mixes might have. 

Personally, I think it would be better for the government to require licenses to own a dog, just like a car registration.  Also, just like a car, an intact dog would require a breeding permit (for a reasonable fee) and a slightly higher annual registration fee (Say $10 for neutered, $15 for nonneutered---or something along those lines).   That way the legitimate breeders would not be inhibited in any way, it will hopefully slow down some of the idiot breeders, and people who have to keep their dogs intact can do so without negative effects as long as they in possession of the required licenses.

That would also hopefully end some of the bullshit with owners with "revolving" dogs, who get a dog, have it for a year or two, take it to the humane society or otherwise get rid of it and get another one.  The license gives a trackable record of a dog and the actions an owner has done with that dog. 

Deicide

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If they told me I had to Neuter my boys it would be the same if they told me I couldn't have guns. They would have to do so with a gun or something.

Do you gun lovers like shooting people?
I hate the State.

Vet

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Do you gun lovers like shooting people?

I think the gun analogy is a really bad one.  A dog is a living, breathing, animate object capable of reproducing and so forth.  Guns aren't.   I've had my old model 12 and my remington 870 in the gun cabinet for the last year now hoping for a new 870 express magnum to be born.  It isn't going to happen.   ;)  I just don't think you can group them together. 



calmus

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 I've had my old model 12 and my remington 870 in the gun cabinet for the last year now hoping for a new 870 express magnum to be born.  It isn't going to happen.   




That's because you do not have enough faith. If your faith was as big as a mustard seed, you'd have a rack full of 870 express magnums.

Vet

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That's because you do not have enough faith. If your faith was as big as a mustard seed, you'd have a rack full of 870 express magnums.

I only need two, then I was going to remove the shells from the model 12. 

calmus

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then I was going to remove the shells from the model 12. 

Nice  ;D

Deicide

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I think the gun analogy is a really bad one.  A dog is a living, breathing, animate object capable of reproducing and so forth.  Guns aren't.   I've had my old model 12 and my remington 870 in the gun cabinet for the last year now hoping for a new 870 express magnum to be born.  It isn't going to happen.   ;)  I just don't think you can group them together. 




What is it with Americans/rural Americans and guns?!

Do you like the power it gives you over other living beings? Do you enjoy killing/hurting other people? Why this obesession?! I cannot for the life of me understand it?

I realise it is a cultural/historical thing but on an individual level, why do you NEED guns?
I hate the State.

calmus

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I realise it is a cultural/historical thing but on an individual level, why do you NEED guns?

Probably hoping (someone like) you'll show up in their neck of the woods.

Vet

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What is it with Americans/rural Americans and guns?!

Do you like the power it gives you over other living beings? Do you enjoy killing/hurting other people? Why this obesession?! I cannot for the life of me understand it?

I realise it is a cultural/historical thing but on an individual level, why do you NEED guns?

Ok, I'll take the bait and answer your question as honestly as I can.  I grew up in rural Missouri where simply put, my family was/still is dirt poor farmers.  I'd guess 90-95% of the meat I ate as a child came from something some member of my family shot---be it wild game or shooting one of the pigs or steers on the farm we butchered.  The only thing we didn't shoot were chickens and that was because shooting a chicken is a waste of a good bullet.   Even in this day, my brother has a good job and lives in the "city", but I think that statistic of ~95% of the meat he eats still holds true for him.  As a matter of fact the only meat product I can think of he doesn't shoot or isn't shot by some member of the family is the hotdogs he eats while watching football in the winter.  Other members of my family don't eat as much "home grown food" as my brother, but I'd guess for my immediate family, 60% or more of the meat that is eaten has either been shot while hunting by one member of the family or its shot when the family butchers in the fall and late winter.  

I'm not a big fan of owning full auto or street sweepers or armor piercing rounds or any of that shit.  It only takes one shot to get a meal or change a burglars mind for ever, anything else is a waste of good bullets.  I was raised looking at guns as the tool they are.  A person who is a good shot will eat/feed their family while others are starving.   A gun provides you with a means of protection from everything from wild animals, to the neighbors dog attacking your chickens, to a poisonous snake on your front porch to a burglar breaking into your house.  I spent some time today looking in pawn shops for a new pistol for my wife and some other guns I want for specific things.  I didn't do it for a power trip, I did it because I want a specific gun to do a specific job. finally a gun provides you with a means of ending suffering to the injured.  I'd lie to you if I told you I haven't shot animals in my life because they were sick, injured, or dying.  

My family has a tradition of passing guns down from grandfathers to grandsons.  My brother has some of the muzzleloaders my family used in the early 1820s when they settled Missouri from Germany.  The guns I own are all by and large gifts from my dead grandfathers, although I have purchased some of them. They are all "functional" guns, meaning that at some point in my owning them, I've shot something I then went on to eat, be it the .410 or the 12 gauges, or the 30-30 or the bbgun I keep behind my truck seat for shooting rats in the horse barn.   I've shot copperheads outside of my house and turtles for soup with the pistol my wife keeps in her night stand.  I think there are quite a few stupid asses with guns now days, especially with some of the inner city dipshit wanna be tough guys, but the simple fact is you WILL NOT take my guns away from me.  I haven't been an NRA member in years, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm an American, its my constitutional right to bear arms, I will continue to own and use the guns I have and I will defend that right with everything I have.  If you don't like it, then you can pry the smoking barrel from my dead hands.   Its that simple.   ;)

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The mandatory s/n laws that the Animal Rights movement is trying to get passed all over is detrimental to pets health and will cause more problems (as has been proven in places that have tried it).  The altering of pets at 4months of age can have health and behavior consequences especially in large and giant breed dogs.  A Great Dane for instance is not mature until about 2 years of age and you should not alter before 1 year of age and preferably longer. 

This law doesn't affect puppy mills who will churn out more puppies, nor does it address the issue that dogs are being smuggled from Mexico, or the feral cat problem. 

  If they can't enforce laws already in affect on animal welfare how are they going to enforce this one?   

  More people are also opting for partial spays and vasectomies because this still allows the dogs to have hormones yet takes care of the unplanned breeding issue.   Their is no definitive conclusion either way as to whether it is better health and behavior wise to leave an animal intact or to alter, either choice has possible consequences.   It should be a person's choice as to what health risks they are willing to chance, and if and WHEN to alter if they choose that option.

  This mandatory s/n is the Animal Rights start in their overall goal of no companion animals, or animals for food or work.

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Personally, I think it would be better for the government to require licenses to own a dog, just like a car registration.  Also, just like a car, an intact dog would require a breeding permit (for a reasonable fee) and a slightly higher annual registration fee (Say $10 for neutered, $15 for nonneutered---or something along those lines).   That way the legitimate breeders would not be inhibited in any way, it will hopefully slow down some of the idiot breeders, and people who have to keep their dogs intact can do so without negative effects as long as they in possession of the required licenses.

They already do require licenses and there is a different yearly fee for intact or altered dogs, I was under the impression that this was the norm for most if not all, of the US?

Quote
That would also hopefully end some of the bullshit with owners with "revolving" dogs, who get a dog, have it for a year or two, take it to the humane society or otherwise get rid of it and get another one.  The license gives a trackable record of a dog and the actions an owner has done with that dog. 

Well that would be good.   Which brings up the point that a lot of shelter pets are older pets, the disposable pets which mandatory altering does nothing about .

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http://naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf[/color]



On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate petowners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits
associated of spay/neuter in dogs.

The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary.

The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed, age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be
supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.


I think these last paragraphs are very important, the information given to the public is typically skewed and one sided, especially on the recommended age to alter.  Which is why mandatory spay and neutering sucks!!!  People don't realize that their pets health are being put at risks and they may end up dumping a pet because of health problems that could of been avoided if the dog was allowed to mature more before being altered. How many female dogs may be dumped or euthanized because they are leaking all over the house?  Or a dog gets cancer or some other health problem and the owner doesn't want to deal with or spend the money. 

 You can read the 12 pages and sources and decide for yourself whether you think they are valid and legitimate.