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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: triple_h on July 08, 2012, 05:48:48 AM
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guys back into training heavy after a long time. and was wondering if bi+ tris can be done on the same day? should i alternate it or its better to 1st do triceps then biceps.
or
its is better to do chest n tris and back n biceps??
( i only train 3 alternate days in the week)
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somebody??
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Either way you'd like. I'll train chest/tris back/bis for a few weeks then skip tris/bis and give them their own workout. When I do I always hit tris first.
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Either way you'd like. I'll train chest/tris back/bis for a few weeks then skip tris/bis and give them their own workout. When I do I always hit tris first.
ok thanks :)
what is my triceps are well developed but biceps not having the bump yet. is it advisable 2 train biceps 1st then?
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yes.......in my humble opinion.....training the bis and tris together is the only way to go.
never ever had a good triceps workout after delts or chest.......and same goes with back and biceps.....
arms together is the route to go!
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HHH I always train tris first, something about the pump of the biceps stopping full contraction of the tris if you train bis first.
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HHH I always train tris first, something about the pump of the biceps stopping full contraction of the tris if you train bis first.
absolutely agree with your post!
always work bis after tris!
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superset both sometimes . its good .
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yes.......in my humble opinion.....training the bis and tris together is the only way to go.
never ever had a good triceps workout after delts or chest.......and same goes with back and biceps.....
arms together is the route to go!
^THIS^
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Agreed Triceps first then Biceps. I can not train Triceps after heavy chest training. Itīs better to train them on their own Day and you can really get some weight in their in close grip Benches which of course will hit your chest as well.
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Agreed Triceps first then Biceps. I can not train Triceps after heavy chest training. Itīs better to train them on their own Day and you can really get some weight in their in close grip Benches which of course will hit your chest as well.
;D
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unless you have insane bicep genetics, don't do back and biceps together. Looks good on paper but when done in real life, it's not so good....
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unless you have insane bicep genetics, don't do back and biceps together. Looks good on paper but when done in real life, it's not so good....
why's that?
and on a side note, it seems to me that bis aren't as involved in back work as tris are in chest work
benches, dips, and push-ups all heavily involve the tris, but rows, pulldowns, pullups don't involve the bis so heavily, with the exception of underhand grip chins or pulldowns
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Hmmmmmm...maybe I'm not understanding this right:
Back day training is not proper bicep training because "the BICEPS will be too EXHAUSTED" to train them the fullest. Thought the whole idea of training was to "exhaust" (with-in reason) a muscle part, biceps in this case. Right after the back, doing biceps would be the perfect timing to take advantage and extend the biceps to their FULLEST work potential. The result being growth and the muscle mass so often sought.
Might try adding incline DB curls & close grip Scott curls, directly after that back training. Taking complete advantage of the biceps being worked hard doing the back/lat work.Tthey should be primed to go beyond the normal range of training, to a higher level. Actually pick any two good bicep movements you wish. Try keeping the total set, for direct bicep work, to 4 to 6 sets max. If thinking you need more than 6 sets of any direct bicep work, after a well planned back/lat workout, you may wish to rethink again.
Might also apply this concept to chest/delt/tricep training. Might also suggest do not do close grip benches, dips or whatever for the triceps after chest/delts. Want extension exercises or such, which give a more direct influence on the triceps. Overhead/lying DB/BB extensions, push offs, tricep press downs, skull crushers to the forehead or chin, etc.
There is a different version, where guy's will train the biceps after chest/delts and triceps after back/lats. Successful for some. The point being that the bicep, for example, is worked & pumped from the back workout (with out any direct bicep work; curls). Doing biceps on the chest/delts day gives the biceps even more direct focus,
Just a personal view, whatever: Having a individual day where only bicep/triceps are paid attention to seems overkill. Going to get a outstanding pump, be pump is no suggestion that advance muscle growth will follow. But you will look great in the mirror after the workout, if that is your main goal. Good Luck.
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Galeniko; we all respond differently, to reach different level of development. There is no one way to obtain ultimate muscle mass, for anyone. Even drugs work very little or don't work at all on some people. With regards to training, can never say don't do this or that. Or this way is the only way.
Sorry I missed the obvious main point of your thread....maybe if I reread it slower..maybe......s-l-o-w-e-r.....Naw, pretty sure I got the jest of your tome. Sticking to what I wrote below.
And congrats to you and your very excellent good set of arms. Say Hi to them for me.
Good Luck.
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why's that?
and on a side note, it seems to me that bis aren't as involved in back work as tris are in chest work
benches, dips, and push-ups all heavily involve the tris, but rows, pulldowns, pullups don't involve the bis so heavily, with the exception of underhand grip chins or pulldowns
If you train back the way you should, no way in hell should you have enough gas to train biceps. I even do back thickness and width seperate to really train the back properly.
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what i'm saying is that if you train your back with either pronated or neutral grip exercises then the biceps won't be as taxed, coz the biceps are most strongly involved when the hand is supinated
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what i'm saying is that if you train your back with either pronated or neutral grip exercises then the biceps won't be as taxed, coz the biceps are most strongly involved when the hand is supinated
So cross out the supinated (one of the most effective ways) to train back in order to do bicep training in the same workout? Not good.
And the chest/shoulder/tri example is even worse! That's good for regular folks who just want to get a bit of tone. Not for bodybuilders who seek to develop each muscle head to it's fullest. You can't do that while trying to do these "all in one workouts"
Bottom line, you gotta hit the muscle through various movements and on days to themselves...
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so i assume you're doing something like this..
chest
back
legs
delts
arms
am i right? if so, and if you are doing overhead pressing and up right rowing on delt day then you're hitting arms 3 times a week (tris on presses and bis on up rows)
push/pull/legs seems to be ideal on paper, but maybe it is just too much for one day... meaning the push and pull days
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have to admit though guys a 3 day split also works for me... Chest+back
off
shoulders+arms
off
legs
weekenfd off or just sat and start again
Training shoulders and arms is not as bad as say with chest or back. I like a 3 or 5 day split but i do not like a 4 day split. end of the day if it gets results thatīs all that matters. Training back and chest is too much for some but i like it sometimes gets a great sweat on and i like to superset benches and rows. it Gets my little ól heart pumpin ;D
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If having a one body part per day training workout, than training arm's on their own day, would be the only exception for an individual arm day. This one day/one body part has been around for quite a while. Usually 15 sets on any one body part (3 exercises of 5 sets each). Though this system can be done 6 training a week, with the calves and abs on the same day.
Like:
Chest
arms
legs
delts
back
calves/abs..optional workout day
Putting the legs, the heaviest compound movement, in the middle puts some space between the chest and back work, also heavy compound exercises. Better so if you include DL's in the back work.
Can't take the biceps out of any pulling exercise, not matter the grip. The bicep has a main pulling function, even the common BB curl is a pulling movement (biceps=pulling a weight towards the body. Triceps=pushing a weight away from the body). If injecting a nerve/muscle numbing compound into the bicep, any rows, chins, clean, etc would be very, very hard to accomplish..if at all. Even triceps work,with that numb bicep, would be demanding. The bicep and Tricep counter balance/support each other in any function.
The weakest link to hitting the lats/back, and building it to it's full potential, are the biceps and grip, with pulling exercises. They give out before the extremely powerful back can be properly taxed. In any event, keep the focus on the elbows and pull with them, rather having the attention on the position of the grip, when doing rows, chins, etc..Lead with the elbows.
A pullover type machine, with the elbows resting on pads, give a direct work curve to the lats/back, with the biceps (for the most part) taken out of the exercise. Main reason a Nautilus pullover(and some other type machines) machine is so effected for building the lats. The closest, where the elbows lead the exercise, is the bent arm or straight arm BB/DB pullover. Allowing for a full stretch at the bottom of he movement. There are elbow slings/webs, which some attach for a sitting cable row or even overhead pulley's and chins....though not too functional or easy to get adjusted. Good Luck.
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the thing about the one bodypart per day gig is delts
delts are heavily worked on back day and chest day, and even on arm day (depending on which exercises you do)
and then when you have delt day, arms are getting worked putting good from the up rows and presses
so from that split legs and back are getting a pretty good amount of rest, and chest somewhat (unless your doing dips and close-grip bench on arm day), but arms and delts are getting a shitload of work
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well i had more trouble doing an upper/lower split training each muscle 2x aweek killed my shoulders. I seem to be fine with a 3 day split as above or a 5. For me on a 5 day split worked=
Chest
back
legs
shoulders
arms
weekend off
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the thing about the one bodypart per day gig is delts
delts are heavily worked on back day and chest day, and even on arm day (depending on which exercises you do)
and then when you have delt day, arms are getting worked putting good from the up rows and presses
so from that split legs and back are getting a pretty good amount of rest, and chest somewhat (unless your doing dips and close-grip bench on arm day), but arms and delts are getting a shitload of work
Delts get hit by almost every upper body exercise my suggestion to minimize delt work just maybe db laterals maybe even every other workout.
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Delts get hit by almost every upper body exercise my suggestion to minimize delt work just maybe db laterals maybe even every other workout.
2 of the biggest and widest delt fellas that i knew didn't do hardly any delt work at all, and they claimed that they got their big delts from benches and rows, so you could have a pretty valid point man
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I agree about the delts (all three heads) getting enough work for growth when working chest and back. But...try convincing most guy's that this is true. No matter how you try to use reason, they are going to work delts. (actually working on their own insecurity's) So I threw in the shoulder thing.
Probably make more delt advancement by not having any special day for them...all over kill.If you think you need arm work, than fine for you. I have not done any direct arm work in years and things seem to be working out out well for me. Good Luck.
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2 of the biggest and widest delt fellas that i knew didn't do hardly any delt work at all, and they claimed that they got their big delts from benches and rows, so you could have a pretty valid point man
Correct bench=front delt, rows = back delts so laterals would complete all three
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I agree about the delts (all three heads) getting enough work for growth when working chest and back. But...try convincing most guy's that this is true. No matter how you try to use reason, they are going to work delts. (actually working on their own insecurity's) So I threw in the shoulder thing.
Probably make more delt advancement by not having any special day for them...all over kill.If you think you need arm work, than fine for you. I have not done any direct arm work in years and things seem to be working out out well for me. Good Luck.
I agree to a point but i think that shoulder presses tax the delts directly..do not get me wrong i know what you are saying and when i do Dips of course shoulders are trained. I do think however if you really want to build all 3 heads as you say.. you should give them attention. I have myself went through periods jpm101 where i did a very basic program with no arm training and it does get results but after that if you hit your arms directly you feel it!
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2 of the biggest and widest delt fellas that i knew didn't do hardly any delt work at all, and they claimed that they got their big delts from benches and rows, so you could have a pretty valid point man
I understand what you're saying. I've even thought of doing just chest/back, legs, twice a week. My shoulders grow easily. But what you're saying about this reminds me of guys with great calves who don't need to train them...
Genetics!
I mean when the best physiques on the planet are built by doing direct delt and arm training, maybe it means something...
In the end it's another thing to try that will either work or not.
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a good thread-- ;)
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I understand what you're saying. I've even thought of doing just chest/back, legs, twice a week. My shoulders grow easily. But what you're saying about this reminds me of guys with great calves who don't need to train them...
Genetics!
I mean when the best physiques on the planet are built by doing direct delt and arm training, maybe it means something...
In the end it's another thing to try that will either work or not.
that's a very good point what you said about genetics
in fact, both of these fellas had pretty damn wide clavicals on 'em
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Will find that when a strong majority of Pro's are getting up for a show they will add direct delt work in their training protocol. Trying to bring out a finer detail to the shoulders them selves. As a general rule, inclines (and versions of) seem to handle the delts quite well, as do upright rows for the upper back, in regular off seasons training. If any delt work done, usually partial reps DB press or side rases. Not that many sets included.
Donny..yes good thread. No "your mom". "so gay", etc. The high school kids must be away today. Good Luck.
Side Bar: my arms seem to grow and keep size without any direct arm work. Confessing that, to me, any arm exercise is the most boring thing in the world.Rather chew glass than even approach doing arm work.
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Will find that when a strong majority of Pro's are getting up for a show they will add direct delt work in their training protocol. Trying to bring out a finer detail to the shoulders them selves. As a general rule, inclines (and versions of) seem to handle the delts quite well, as do upright rows for the upper back, in regular off seasons training. If any delt work done, usually partial reps DB press or side rases. Not that many sets included.
Donny..yes good thread. No "your mom". "so gay", etc. The high school kids must be away today. Good Luck.
Side Bar: my arms seem to grow and keep size without any direct arm work. Confessing that, to me, any arm exercise is the most boring thing in the world.Rather chew glass than even approach doing arm work.
The kids on here are funny itīs almost pathetic... ;D
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also would like to see pics of guys advocating 0 arm or delt work...
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here's one of the 2 guys that i was talking about
it's JM Blakely and he was a 700 pound bencher, and he's from my hometown of Columbus, Ohio
he trained me for a bit off and on some years ago, and i remember saying to him (after he gave me and a bud of mine our training program) "so what about the delt training?" and he looked me in the eye, as he spread his delts and said something like "look at this, i got these delts without doing direct delt work" LOL
sorry, i don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something like that ;D 8)
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yeah id like to see that too.
btw, that powerlifter in the video, uhm, thats not how i want to look like.on a powerliftersdrug regiment and diet, yeah, delts might grow some without direct training.but dana lynn baileys delts look better
you know or knew the turkish fella know for his cuts and conditioning right?
i'm really curious how the dude trains or trained to look like that, so maybe you can share it with us if you don't mind?
i firmly believe that "conditioning training" is different than "size training", and in fact i'm arguing with a fella here on this site through pm's about this whole idea/concept of "conditioning training" vs. "size training" ;D
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yeah id like to see that too.
btw, that powerlifter in the video, uhm, thats not how i want to look like.on a powerliftersdrug regiment and diet, yeah, delts might grow some without direct training.but dana lynn baileys delts look better
very true. I was not really impressed by that guy. Looks big and strong, but lacking shape and aesthetics and that's where direct work comes in.
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nah theres no such thing like conditioning training or size training, its just about how much drugs and how much calories, really.
yeh, hamdi, i can tell you what he eats for contest rep, its simple, 200gramms of protein from chicken and 100gramms carbs from rice and thats it.
no refeed bs, just that.
his training, after contests, he takes many months off training and eats whatever he wants and still looks big but gets a bit fat(for his standard).
when he trains, all the people say he trains like a pussy, as in light weights.works on bench with 2 plates, squats same, it does inded look very easy what he does, bit cable stuff, then chat to people between sets, etc.but dont be fooled, guy trains since 3oyears, is sparing his joints, focussing on movement and contraction, he knows what hes doing.it might look easy for ppl who dont know any better.
and hes in and out the gym within 40minutes.
hes said to be agressive towards end of dieting, but i always seen him as being very relaxed kind of guy, he uses a special tranquilizer, most ppl know that ;D
thanks alot for that reply man :)
so he only eat roughly 1200 cals pre-contest? 200 pro grams=800 cals and 100 grams carbs=400 cals
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guys back into training heavy after a long time. and was wondering if bi+ tris can be done on the same day? should i alternate it or its better to 1st do triceps then biceps.
or
its is better to do chest n tris and back n biceps??
( i only train 3 alternate days in the week)
chest/bi
back
shoulders/tri
legs
my fav set-up
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HHH I always train tris first, something about the pump of the biceps stopping full contraction of the tris if you train bis first.
I agree. Plus you can get the bigger muscle first and do dips, closegrips or overheads...and like you said doing DB overhead extensions with two hands is hard after biceps.
Chaos I have been back into training for a month now after a few years layoff due to severe Crohns Disease and some other personal problems...I find your posts in this forum real good info. Thanks.
MDN
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why's that?
and on a side note, it seems to me that bis aren't as involved in back work as tris are in chest work
benches, dips, and push-ups all heavily involve the tris, but rows, pulldowns, pullups don't involve the bis so heavily, with the exception of underhand grip chins or pulldowns
yeah i've noticed the same thing
i heard some dude at the gym say that he trains back/tris and then chest/bis so that the respective muscles aren't as worn out when he works them... is it just me or is this rockfuck stupid?
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yeah i've noticed the same thing
i heard some dude at the gym say that he trains back/tris and then chest/bis so that the respective muscles aren't as worn out when he works them... is it just me or is this rockfuck stupid?
Itīs not stupid.. just another way to do a split. I used to train back+biceps, chest+triceps ( some pair shoulders+triceps) but i find now i like training arms with shoulders( larry scott said they tie in together and he had the best arms in the world). If you really want to concentrate on arms train them on their own or as you wrote above Back+triceps and chest+ biceps.
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I recently switched to training arms & shoulders together. This was before knowing that Scott did the same, which I strangely did not learn until recently.
I've tried doing tri's after back, chest, and shoulders - same with bi's. I've also done shoulders, chest, back, and arms on their own respective days.
My current upper-body split is chest/back/traps on the same day, and delts/tri's/bi's on the same day. I've become increasingly happy with this split and plan to stick with it for the next several months.
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My source of Information about Larry Scott is from "Bodybuilding Basics" from Robert Kennedy ISBN 0-8069-7392-7 itīs on page 115 in the Q&A section...works great for me.
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I recently switched to training arms & shoulders together. This was before knowing that Scott did the same, which I strangely did not learn until recently.
I've tried doing tri's after back, chest, and shoulders - same with bi's. I've also done shoulders, chest, back, and arms on their own respective days.
My current upper-body split is chest/back/traps on the same day, and delts/tri's/bi's on the same day. I've become increasingly happy with this split and plan to stick with it for the next several months.
actually, legs/chest and back/delts and arms is a pretty common split
Vinny G recommended it as did Mentzer
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any good for supersetting two biceps exercices . l heard itseldom good .
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any good for supersetting two biceps exercices . l heard itseldom good .
AJ recommended curls supersetted with chins or close-grip palms up pulldowns, but i think that it's actually beter to do the compound move 1st and then the iso, like chin or pulldown 1st and then right after do barbell or dumbbell curls
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AJ recommended curls supersetted with chins or close-grip palms up pulldowns, but i think that it's actually beter to do the compound move 1st and then the iso, like chin or pulldown 1st and then right after do barbell or dumbbell curls
Agreed.
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AJ recommended curls supersetted with chins or close-grip palms up pulldowns, but i think that it's actually beter to do the compound move 1st and then the iso, like chin or pulldown 1st and then right after do barbell or dumbbell curls
so we agree supersets work and direct arm training..
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so we agree supersets work and direct arm training..
Yes you need direct arm training.
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so we agree supersets work and direct arm training..
i don't man
maybe direct arm work is needed, coz my torso and delts are really starting to pwn the living fuck outta my arms and it's pissing me the fuck off >:(
i just added in curls and tri ext so we'll see if they help to remedy the situation :-\
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i don't man
maybe direct arm work is needed, coz my torso and delts are really starting to pwn the living fuck outta my arms and it's pissing me the fuck off >:(
i just added in curls and tri ext so we'll see if they help to remedy the situation :-\
dj i do respect that you stick to your own training philosophy...that is good
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i don't man
maybe direct arm work is needed, coz my torso and delts are really starting to pwn the living fuck outta my arms and it's pissing me the fuck off >:(
i just added in curls and tri ext so we'll see if they help to remedy the situation :-\
Good that's what is needed.
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Good that's what is needed.
my girl wants me bigger, but i gotta keep some proportion, or else i'll look like a total dolt with stick arms and a well-developed torso :(
and i try not to think about it too much when she tells me that i need more ass and legs, as i'm an upper body obsessed individual and there's no doubts bout dat ;D
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my girl wants me bigger, but i gotta keep some proportion, or else i'll look like a total dolt with stick arms and a well-developed torso :(
and i try not to think about it too much when she tells me that i need more ass and legs, as i'm an upper body obsessed individual and there's no doubts bout dat ;D
You could always just
Get a different girl
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my girl wants me bigger, but i gotta keep some proportion, or else i'll look like a total dolt with stick arms and a well-developed torso :(
and i try not to think about it too much when she tells me that i need more ass and legs, as i'm an upper body obsessed individual and there's no doubts bout dat ;D
Squats is the answer.
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Squats is the answer.
for my girls requests/demands or for bigger arms ;D
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for my girls requests/demands or for bigger arms ;D
I thought she wanted more legs? My bad.
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I thought she wanted more legs? My bad.
well man, she wants more legs and ASS ;D
but supposedly full squats make bigger arms, still not sure if that's true or not
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heres a good tip from a guy-me-who has good arms.
randomly pump them up when possible, do couple pump sets even on legs day,i do that.
if youre affraid of "overtraining" them, well, go and try to actually train them so often and hard, so they become overtrained.youll find out,they can take quite some abuse.
in plain layman english terms, dont be a pussy, train the hel out of them.
instead of waiting at home for that next 3 hr frequency meal thatll only make you fatter and faster on the way to permabulk city, go and train something.
This ^, train the shit out of your weak points maintain the strong points = symmetry.
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heres a good tip from a guy-me-who has good arms.
randomly pump them up when possible, do couple pump sets even on legs day,i do that.
if youre affraid of "overtraining" them, well, go and try to actually train them so often and hard, so they become overtrained.youll find out,they can take quite some abuse.
in plain layman english terms, dont be a pussy, train the hel out of them.
instead of waiting at home for that next 3 hr frequency meal thatll only make you fatter and faster on the way to permabulk city, go and train something.
Galeniko you have great arms..