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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: SF1900 on July 01, 2015, 07:41:08 AM
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I am glad this Satanic Temple was allowed to be established. Freedom of Religion!!
The Satanic Temple of Detroit debuts massive one-ton Baphomet monument
(http://s22.postimg.org/nl1s938g1/bahometsatanictempledetroitstatue8ualsdjfapo8upl.jpg)
http://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_satanic_temple_of_detroit_debuts_massive_one-ton_baphomet_monument
If you were not already aware, Detroit, Michigan is the home to the very first national chapter house of The Satanic Temple. Late yesterday, TST released the first photos of a nine-foot, one-ton statue of Baphomet that they hope to display at the State Capitol in Oklahoma.
If you’re wondering why The Satanic Temple is hoping to house the titanic sculpture of Baphomet in Oklahoma’s State Capitol, let me clear that up for you. Although they have yet to be granted permission (and promise to sue the state if request is denied), TST wants Baphomet to sit next to the six-foot tall Ten Commandments statue (built with the help of “private” funding), that has stood on the grounds of the Oklahoma State Capitol since 2012. Coincidently, said statue was smashed up in 2014 by a guy who said he was acting on “Satan’s” orders. The statue was then restored and returned to its original spot at the Capitol. However, in an interesting turn of events late today, it looks like the controversial statue’s days are indeed numbered.
In a decisive 7-2 decision, the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled that the Ten Commandments statue must be removed as it violates the state’s constitutional ban on the use of public property for the benefit of a religion. While this decision does not bode well for TST, it will be interesting to see how this one shakes out given Oklahoma’s highly conservative constituency. I also wouldn’t be surprised if TST starts looking for a new home for Baphomet. Still, I think it’s safe to say that times are indeed changing in this country. And fast.
The massive statue will be officially unveiled on July 25th at a rather un-satanic sounding spot called Bert’s Warehouse Theater in Detroit, with entertainment provided by DJ William Morrison of Skinny Puppy/OhGr related infamy. Attendance is open to the public and tickets to the event will cost you $25 bucks. VIP tickets will run you $75 and include your very own photo with Baphomet. Dressing to impress satan is also highly encouraged. Nice.
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I am probably wrong, but doesn't a religion require a God? baphomet or satan are not a God, he was outcasted by God. So this is bullshit, or should i say goatshit?
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I am probably wrong, but doesn't a religion require a God? baphomet or satan are not a God, he was outcasted by God. So this is bullshit, or should i say goatshit?
Call it what you want, it still guarantees a person(s) to construct any building to worship their "religion" in. That is good enough for me.
I obviously do not believe in Satan or Hell or anything like that. But I know the theists are melting down over this. I love it! :D :D
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Call it what you want, it still guarantees a person(s) to construct any building to worship their "religion" in. That is good enough for me.
I obviously do not believe in Satan or Hell or anything like that. But I know the theists are melting down over this. I love it! :D :D
It's just good ole fashioned idolatry....pop on any boob tube and you can find 24 hour, 7 day a week idolatry.
People wanna worship Satan then let them worship Satan.
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It's just good ole fashioned idolatry....pop on any boob tube and you can find 24 hour, 7 day a week idolatry.
People wanna worship Satan then let them worship Satan.
And I am sure they do not care if you think its idolatry. :D :D
As you stated, they are allowed to worship Satan. But I know the theists are most likely having a fit about this.
Kind of like when a school district allowed parents to hand out Christian pamphlets to students. It was challenged. School board ruled that it was allowed due to freedom of religion and expression, and anyone was allowed to hand out pamphlets. Satanists then started to hand out pamphlets to students lol. Guess what happened? School board put a complete halt to all of it lol. Seems like they really didn't value freedom of expression or religion. Only freedom to express their views, and no one else. Bunch of hypocrites. I love that Satanists went there and started to hand out pamphlets. Expose their hypocrisy.
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Poor old satan gets a raw deal in most religious Literature. You never get to hear his side of the story. All you get told is that he was an angel who rebelled against god and then got sent to hell for it...perhaps he was well within his rights to rebel against him? Maybe god wanted him to inflict another plague on humanity, or flood the world again in a fit of rage? There's no biblical record of Satan committing any genocide or murder of any kind, people can worship him if they want to in my opinion...it's all bullshit anyway.
Maybe the perception that Christians have of God isn't the perception that God has of himself and humans. Maybe Christians have themselves (me included) in high regard whereas God perceive us like some puny little shits who are lucky to walk His earth. Maybe God's moto to everything (satan, humans, whatever) is:
"It's my way or the highway"
Maybe we think we have a friend whatching for us all and it's really not that the case. Maybe we are not worthy His attention.
How can God allow a site like Getbig.com to exist?
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And I am sure they do not care if you think its idolatry. :D :D
As you stated, they are allowed to worship Satan. But I know the theists are most likely having a fit about this.
Kind of like when a school district allowed parents to hand out Christian pamphlets to students. It was challenged. School board ruled that it was allowed due to freedom of religion and expression, and anyone was allowed to hand out pamphlets. Satanists then started to hand out pamphlets to students lol. Guess what happened? School board put a complete halt to all of it lol. Seems like they really didn't value freedom of expression or religion. Only freedom to express their views, and no one else. Bunch of hypocrites. I love that Satanists went there and started to hand out pamphlets. Expose their hypocrisy.
Nah, Satanists don't care at all.
School board don't care either.
The upholding of each of our rights is often subjectively based.
Even though I'm completely opposed to Satanism I do agree that the additional exposure of the general hypocrisy is probably a good thing.
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Maybe that's exactly why the entire concept of religion is nonsense.
Agreed to a point. My objection is concentrated on the nonsense of some organized religion (Christianity included).
Atheists deeming the whole of religion nonsense is pretty much the norm. Despite any length of discussion, when all is said and done, it often concludes with that exact sentiment.
It's regrettable for me personally, for the sake of the atheist that rejects it, because I do genuinely do care for them. Unfortunately I'm powerless against it.
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Nah, Satanists don't care at all.
School board don't care either.
The upholding of each of our rights is often subjectively based.
Even though I'm completely opposed to Satanism I do agree that the additional exposure of the general hypocrisy is probably a good thing.
The Satanists didn't care. They purposely did it to expose the hypocrisy of the school boards so called mantra of "Freedom of Religion and/or Expression."
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Agreed to a point. My objection is concentrated on the nonsense of some organized religion (Christianity included).
Atheists deeming the whole of religion nonsense is pretty much the norm. Despite any length of discussion, when all is said and done, it often concludes with that exact sentiment.
It's regrettable for me personally, for the sake of the atheist that rejects it, because I do genuinely do care for them. Unfortunately I'm powerless against it.
Bullshit. You don't care about atheists. You pity them and feel bad for them (not that I need your pity or sympathy).
Theres a big difference between genuine care and pity.
Cut the crap.
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Bullshit. You don't care about atheists. You pity them and feel bad for them (not that I need your pity or sympathy).
Theres a big difference between genuine care and pity.
Cut the crap.
I care a great deal about the atheists of this board and others in my non-online life as well.
A militant atheist like Hitchens or Dawkins I do pity. There's no hope for them as their choices are set and they dedicate their lives to fighting tooth and nail against theists and Christ....it's a different level of mega-intense atheism.
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I care a great deal about the atheists of this board and others in my non-online life as well.
A militant atheist like Hitchens or Dawkins I do pity. There's no hope for them as their choices are set and they dedicate their lives to fighting tooth and nail against theists and Christ....it's a different level of mega-intense atheism.
No hope for them? Hope to become theists? I am sure they do not hope to become theists.
And their choices are not set. Dawkins always said he would change his opinion when presented with scientific evidence.
Same with me in that regard. There is no hope for me except to provide me with scientific evidence.
But since that is not possible since you can't test faith in a lab, there is no "hope" for me and I am fine with that.
But I am not a militant atheist and I don't fight tooth and nail. Don't have time for that. I put my efforts elsewhere.
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No hope for them? Hope to become theists? I am sure they do not hope to become theists.
And their choices are not set. Dawkins always said he would change his opinion when presented with scientific evidence.
Same with me in that regard. There is no hope for me except to provide me with scientific evidence.
But since that is not possible since you can't test faith in a lab, there is no "hope" for me and I am fine with that.
But I am not a militant atheist and I don't fight tooth and nail. Don't have time for that. I put my efforts elsewhere.
Exactly there is a difference between yourself and say Dawkins.
I would certainly live out my faith before someone like Dawkins, share my terstimony of Christ but beyond that he's heard the gospel from many others and full rejected it based on a lack of impossible scientific evidence. You and Dawkins both demand scientific evidence and that isn't how God works. You both reject his terms and demand your own. Can't produce God in a lab. Your life and who you are isn't defined by atheism. You wouldn't be publically introduced as an atheist even though you align with atheism. Dawkins is though...big difference.
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Exactly there is a difference between yourself and say Dawkins.
I would certainly live out my faith before someone like Dawkins, share my terstimony of Christ but beyond that he's heard the gospel from many others and full rejected it based on a lack of impossible scientific evidence. You and Dawkins both demand scientific evidence and that isn't how God works. You both reject his terms and demand your own. Can't produce God in a lab. Your life and who you are isn't defined by atheism. You wouldn't be publically introduced as an atheist even though you align with atheism. Dawkins is though...big difference.
How is that any difference than a person being defined by their theism? ::) ::) Seems like you just want to criticize Dawkins for being defined by his atheism, yet youre okay with people being defined by their theism. Epic hypocrisy.
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How is that any difference than a person being defined by their theism? ::) ::) Seems like you just want to criticize Dawkins for being defined by his atheism, yet youre okay with people being defined by their theism. Epic hypocrisy.
I don't speak for or represent all theists.
Although personally I'm absolutely defined by my theism as much or probably more than Dawkins is his militant atheism.
You're not understanding me I don't think and that's ok.
Both Dawkins and myself are at a ptoint where we aren't changing. ...me more than Dawkins most likely. Something miraculous might change Dawkins for Christ....nothing will turn me from Christ.
My faith will be tested and has been tested. It won't be removed. My life is for Christ first and foremost.
Others are atheists or theists but that doesn't define them like me and Dawkins or Hitchens.
A lot theists and atheists teeter on the brink of agnosticism. Not the case for myself or Dawkins. We're both unyielding...is what it is but no hypocrisy. I know you're eager to slap that label on me. ;)
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I don't speak for or represent all theists.
Although personally I'm absolutely defined by my theism as much or probably more than Dawkins is his militant atheism.
You're not understanding me I don't think and that's ok.
Both Dawkins and myself are at a ptoint where we aren't changing. ...me more than Dawkins most likely. Something miraculous might change Dawkins for Christ....nothing will turn me from Christ.
My faith will be tested and has been tested. It won't be removed. My life is for Christ first and foremost.
Others are atheists or theists but that doesn't define them like me and Dawkins or Hitchens.
A lot theists and atheists teeter on the brink of agnosticism. Not the case for myself or Dawkins. We're both unyielding...is what it is but no hypocrisy. I know you're eager to slap that label on me. ;)
So it's okay that you're a militant theist, but not okay for Dawkins to be a militant atheist. Typical religious hypocrisy.
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So it's okay that you're a militant theist, but not okay for Dawkins to be a militant atheist. Typical religious hypocrisy.
Either you're still not understanding what I'm saying or you're attempting to force an idea into my words that isn't there...not sure which.
Regardless, I said that I'm even more defined by my theism than Dawkins is by his militant atheism. There's not an ounce of hypocrisy there.
Look, I'm know you're attempting to set your case for this new "theist hypocrisy" theme you're pushing, but you're not gonna find much help in affirming that notion from me....sorry.
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Dawkins is an agnostic atheist. As is pretty much everyone, with the exception of Hitchens, who fully admitted that even if god was real, he'd tell him to piss off lol.
The difference between you and someone like Dawkins, Is the willingness to face reality and question things. Dawkins has said, and i share the same sentiments, that if there is any proof whatsoever, any shred of scientific evidence that can validate the bible and it's stories, then his opinion would most likely change.
You differ here, in that you say there is NOTHING that can sway your belief in Christ/god...so even if scriptures were found that proved the bible was a work of fiction, or science made an amazing breakthrough and discovered all there was to know about the universe, disproving god....you'd STILL cling to the desperate hope of Christ and the bible being real....this is deluded to the point of insanity, and i'm not saying that to intentionally be a dick and offend you.
You cannot talk for "god" and have no authority or legitimate basis for saying things like "that isn't how God works. You both reject his terms and demand your own", as you have absolutely nothing to go by in order to make this claim, other than an extreme hope that you are right.
You are entitled to think what you like, but in my opinion, it's weak, it's lazy and it's a refusal to face reality.
Dawkins himself identifies as a militant atheist and his actions demonstrate that. The following are not the words of a soft atheist LOL:
Dawkins has been quoted with the following, “I am a fairly militant atheist, with a fair degree of active hostility toward religion. I certainly was hostile toward it at school, from the age of about sixteen onwards. I mellowed a bit in my twenties and thirties. But I’m getting more militant again now.”
So Dawkins reality is more real than mine? Why is that?
Our worldviews differ and our perceptions of reality are based upon our experiences and education.
Validate the bible and it’s stories? We have a ton of archeological evidence to consider that validates names, places and events from scripture.
Ok, so I’ll continue to wait patiently for the competing literature that fully invalidates scripture, negates fulfilled prophecy, negates the promises of Christ fulfilled in believers today, negates the presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, negates the resurrection of Christ, negates the biblical testimonies in scripture, etc…..
We have the gnostic Gospel of Thomas and the Jesus Seminar “Q” material and Bart Ehrman’s anti-scriptural works or Richard Carrier’s attempts to invalidate scripture. Even youtube atheist Brian Sapient ("sapient" ;D ::) ) has a website dedicated to "curing theism". There are scores of materials devoted to exactly this sentiment and yet none of them are sufficient debunking tools…they just provide an alternative…nothing more. Despite all of Ehrman's published works he affirms the following within an interview in the 4rd edition in the appendix (on pg 252) of his most famous work "Misquoting Jesus":
"Bruce Metzger is one of the great scholars of modern times, and I dedicated the book to him because he was both my inspiration for going into textual criticism and the person who trained me in the field. I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. And even though we may disagree on important religious questions – he is a firmly committed Christian and I am not – we are in complete agreement on a number of very important historical and textual questions. If he and I were put in a room and asked to hammer out a consensus statement on what we think the original text of the New Testament probably looked like, there would be very few points of disagreement – maybe one or two dozen places out of many thousands. The position I argue for in ‘Misquoting Jesus’ does not actually stand at odds with Prof. Metzger’s position that the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament."
No matter how many different works become New York Times Bestsellers I will still challenge all the scholarly erudition devoted to theological “debunking” via the ever present, tangible presence of the Lord being felt by believers worldwide today.
I’m sorry, but I find the rampantly overused cliché that I’m not willing to “face reality and question things” absolutely laughable. Man, that’s all I do.
“you'd STILL cling to the desperate hope of Christ and the bible being real....this is deluded to the point of insanity, and i'm not saying that to intentionally be a dick and offend you.”
LOL, of course you aren’t.
I have every basis for saying exactly what I do because every bit of it is grounded in Jesus Christ and his commands to go forward and spread the gospel and openly defend the joy and faith we have in him.
"it's weak, it's lazy and it's a refusal to face reality"
The fact of the matter is that a 12-year old girl who is a believer in Christ and understands how to share her faith could lead the entire population of unbelievers in the United States to Christ in a day if those she spoke to would be willing to surrender of themselves and humble themselves before Jesus Christ and abide by his terms instead of their own as outlined in scripture. They could all come to an understanding of the concrete revelation of God's reality.....they simply refuse to follow and most don't want Christ. They're just fine without a "sky Daddy" and his "grimoire" (as avxo puts it). Further we have men like Hitchens that even if Jesus Christ would've appeared before him he would've spat in his face and vehemently rejected him.
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I care a great deal about the atheists of this board and others in my non-online life as well.
A militant atheist like Hitchens or Dawkins I do pity. There's no hope for them as their choices are set and they dedicate their lives to fighting tooth and nail against theists and Christ....it's a different level of mega-intense atheism.
Who garners more pity worthiness... Hitchens/Dawkins..who came to their conclusions with rational thought or the little old lady sending her SSN check to a millionaire televangelist then eating cat food for dinner?
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Who garners more pity worthiness... Hitchens/Dawkins..who came to their conclusions with rational thought or the little old lady sending her SSN check to a millionaire televangelist then eating cat food for dinner?
Mark 12:41-44
41 And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. 43 Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.”
I guess it just depends what you value most in this life and whom you choose to serve. The woman in your example has chosen to serve God in an act of complete selflessness. You see a fool. I see a gracious, loving hero for the kingdom!! The world needs less Kaitlyn Jenners and more cat ladies.
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When the UFO reality(Disclosure)does come out. Then you will realize the Devil Satan was infact not from this Earth.
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Devils,Faries,Goblins are infact witness accounts of meetings or seeing beings we do not understand.
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Dawkins may well be militant, but that's beside the point in him being agnostic to the extent that he says if any evidence is found to give religion any validation at all, then he's willing to change his mind. You've said the opposite. "Something miraculous might change Dawkins for Christ....nothing will turn me from Christ."
So tell me how that is living in reality? I asked IF any evidence is found, which proves that God and Jesus do not and did not exist, would you still keep your faith? If the answer is yes, then what is that saying about the reality you're living in?
What was reality like for the religious locked in concentration camps, who prayed every day for help? or for the kids who took refuge in Rwandan churches, before being hacked to death under a crucifix? You like to believe that Jesus decided to show up for a short time, a few thousand years ago, perform a few miracles and assure people that he's there for them. And the only way for you to still hold onto this belief is to let go of reality, because he's not here now. He's not here for the millions who need a miracle every day, and despite what you convince yourself, he's not there for you. You've never seen him, or heard him, you've just reassured yourself that everything's going to be ok.
The only way for the religious to try and deal with the fact that the bible makes all these claims that this stuff happened once, but never again, is to convince yourself with thoughts like "god transcends the universe" Or to take a Solipsistic view that maybe everything is all one big test, and the only reality there is, is the one going on inside your head. Look around you, show me ONE piece of evidence that god gives a shit about what's going on in the world that he supposedly made? show me ONE piece of proof that he's listening to you....if you can talk to him, go ask him to show himself to me tonight. It worked in the bible, so why shouldn't it work now?
i think that people need to start being more militant and outspoken towards organised religion. And i don't mean any negativity towards individuals as people have the right to think what they like, and people cannot help what culture they are born into, but religion has no right to act as an authority on how we are to live, it has no business at all being in our schools to brainwash kids into a life of hatred, fear, confusion and ignorance. It has no rights influencing our laws, what we can and can't do with our bodies or anything else.
It is a poison. I'm still relatively young, but i've been around the world and i've seen first hand what religion is. I may have said it before, but at best it is a false courage, It's a way for people to cope with the difficult aspects of life by convincing themselves that things are going to be better. At it's worst and most frequent, It's a divisive, oppressive tool for power, which is used by the smart, to control the weak. Look how it's influenced you with your last comment. You'd rather the world had less transsexuals and more gullible old women to be extorted out of the little money they have, to make rich charlatans even richer.
Here's a quote i'm sure you'll recognise. "Religion now comes to us in this smiley-face ingratiating way, because it has had to give so much ground and because we know so much more. But you have no right to forget the way it behaved when it was strong, and when it really did believe that it had God on its side."
Thanks to a more militant approach to challenging this bullshit, we are slowly starting to move away from these crazy stories that have held civilisation back and damaged it for so long. I hope that the rest of the world can start to do this too.
The more I engage with you, despite having different opinions and worldviews (which is fine), you seem like a reasonable man….a normal guy.
Let me ask you a personal question if you don’t mind. If you could come to understand the reality of the sovereign creator of the universe would you want to?
I will respond to your reply, but I would like to understand something else first. I’m not here preaching “religion”. Religion is a catch-all term used to represent all manner of religious belief, event, individual, school of thought, theology, practice, god(s), etc….
Who I represent is Jesus Christ.
Further I take no responsibility for the evil actions of the Catholic church, Westboro Baptist church, the witch trials, the crusades or any evil act performed in the name of god(s). I also assume no responsibility for the general evil of men. Not an ounce of it represents Jesus Christ no matter how fervently some might claim it sources from him.
So I ask first, if you could come to know and understand the reality of Christ today would you want to?
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Define "Come to know the reality of Jesus Christ today..."
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Sure, i understand, and i wouldn't ever group you personally, in with the most disgusting parts of religion. I get that this is just your faith, that you're passionate about. It's just that i cannot see it how you see it. I see no truth in it at all.
With regards to your question, I feel that i already have found the reality of God these days. I grew up with religion being taught to me in school, I used to believe in it, and through life experience i came to reject it. I would love to be proved wrong, I would genuinely like for it all to be real, But no amount of deep concentration could convince me that i'm doing anything other than talking to myself. I would need to see something miraculous, like the types mentioned in the bible, in order for me to change my mind.
That's fair. I've spoken to many folks that have had experiences growing up in the church or a church-type setting and completely walked away from that former life. Said they just didn't find anything worth sticking around for. People have some very bad experiences with religion or a church....it's unfortunate how believers screw things up. Problem with churches is that they are all still full of sinners!! ;) Some have no bad experience with church, but they simply took little or nothing from the experience often entering a university situation and identifying with what they learned there more so than any sunday school and/or vacation bible school lesson of the past. They aren't mad at the church, but they certainly don't support it either. I'm not critical of that....I understand it.
If you look at scripture all sorts of folks witnessed the miraculous before their eyes and yet were not convinced of anything....both old and new testaments show this. Even the disciples that followed Christ from place to place experiencing these impossible situations still remained in doubt and fear. Christ outright told his disciples he would be taken, killed and would rise in three days and despite all they had seen their reaction wasn't one of confidence....it was fear. They constantly questioned Christ, they demonstrated that their faith was weak, they quibbled over who was the greatest and after all they saw, experienced and learned directly from Christ they fled in fear when put to the test. Seemingly the greatest of the disciples in Peter outright denied Christ repeatedly. And even after Christ fulfilled all he had said and appeared before his disciples (less Thomas) after he rose from the dead, Thomas later rejected the words of his constituents and refused to believe unless he put his hand in Christ's wound and saw his wounds with his own eyes. As Christ would later tell Thomas, blessed are those that believe, but have not seen.....that's us.
So what is it today that makes a difference in believers? What changed the disciples?
The disciples literally went from fear, skepticism, rejection and flee to becoming the world's boldest, most courageous, most enthusiastic spreaders of Christ's message the world has even known and they willingly went to their deaths in pursuit of this goal...this great commission.
What changed is something I find extremely quaint in scripture. Jesus tells his disciples that when he has returned to the divine the Father would send "his helper". His "helper" or advocate is the Holy Spirit. The third person or expression of God's divine nature. The same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead was referred to as "a helper" LOL....I love that. :) It was at the Festival of Pentecost that the Holy Spirit arrived and indwelled Christ's believers for the first time. Literally, the Holy Spirit of God began to live within the believer and began a glorious change in each individual...a work of sanctification that left each believer radically and irrevocably changed. It was here that the disciples went forth with boldness and courage and through the Holy Spirit's inspiration and guidance began to perform incredible works in Christ's name and began fulfilling the great commission leading folks to Christ so that they too could be indwelled and emboldened by the same Holy Spirit of God. Their perceptions of this life changed almost instantly and their hearts became desirous for the the Lord's will and not their own. The tangible presence of the Holy Spirit was made manifest for all believers and the reality of God's existence forever known.
It's within this sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that our faith matures, solidifies and becomes something different. Not blind, but concrete and confident, but full of love and hope and peace and a desire for others to understand the same. I can help lead folks to Christ, but they must want to follow and seek him in humility with a heart desirous to know him. A desire to turn from those things that are considered sinful by the very same God.
It's through Jesus Christ's act on Calvary's cross that we are redeemed and made righteous and indwelled and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. We are justified before the very throne of God the Father and saved from his wrath and judgment. I thank him everyday for his saving grace. Today, my simple and honest desire is to lovingly lead others to the same understanding that I have of God's wonderful and powerful existence so that they too can delight in his saving grace.
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Define "Come to know the reality of Jesus Christ today..."
Come to understand without a doubt that God is real and Jesus Christ rose from the dead and lives today.
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Come to understand without a doubt that God is real and Jesus Christ rose from the dead and lives today.
absolutely.. but you and I both know it's a loaded question.
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absolutely.. but you and I both know it's a loaded question.
Help me understand why it's loaded?
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well forgive me if I make this assumption, but it's based on 22 million conversations of similar nature with other Christians...
You: If I can prove Jesus is real will you accept him?
Me: Of course, who in their right minds would refuse Jesus if he were real? Who would want to go to hell for eternity and not heaven? That's just ignorant!
You: If you really really really open your heart to Jesus and ask him to come in he will, and he will reveal himself to you (And read these apologetic books I've listed for you)
Me: Tried it, didn't work
You: You're just not open to him. It's your fault because you're not letting him in
Me: Didn't see that coming..
If that's NOT what you had in mind, I apologize and I'm listening
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well forgive me if I make this assumption, but it's based on 22 million conversations of similar nature with other Christians...
You: If I can prove Jesus is real will you accept him?
Me: Of course, who in their right minds would refuse Jesus if he were real? Who would want to go to hell for eternity and not heaven? That's just ignorant!
You: If you really really really open your heart to Jesus and ask him to come in he will, and he will reveal himself to you (And read these apologetic books I've listed for you)
Me: Tried it, didn't work
You: You're just not open to him. It's your fault because you're not letting him in
Me: Didn't see that coming..
If that's NOT what you had in mind, I apologize and I'm listening
We could "what if" and role play any number of dialogues, but I'm more interested in wanting to know if folks personally desire to know the God and follow him and let him lead their lives. That they're ready to turn from their sin, be forgiven and start a new life in which God is in control.
I don't want to see anyone separated from God in eternity, but it just isn't up to me. Often times it takes some folks time to think things through and clarify some questions. People that desire to know more about God engage in a church, begin reading scripture, read online materials and speak to other believers.
I know the reality of God, but I don't know the contents of people's hearts....only God and that person know that. Scripture isn't a book of magical spells as avxo so crudely defines it. A person can recite "Jesus I want to be saved, come into my heart" and never mean a word of it. The humility and sincerity is not for me to judge; yet, in time new believers often reveal their true intentions....their words and actions always vet them out. I've known plenty of folks that get caught up in the emotion of a church service and walk the aisle or give their life to Christ in that service and a less than a week later have turned from it completely never to go back. It's like old expression "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". I'm powerless against insincerity and a non-desirous heart.
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can someone photoshop the statue to have "two in the pink, one in the stink?" then put a pic of our good buddy Dan Hill somewhere in the back.
The good lord will thank you and be more likely to grant you into his kingdom when you croak.
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We could "what if" and role play any number of dialogues, but I'm more interested in wanting to know if folks personally desire to know the God and follow him and let him lead their lives. That they're ready to turn from their sin, be forgiven and start a new life in which God is in control.
I don't want to see anyone separated from God in eternity, but it just isn't up to me. Often times it takes some folks time to think things through and clarify some questions. People that desire to know more about God engage in a church, begin reading scripture, read online materials and speak to other believers.
I know the reality of God, but I don't know the contents of people's hearts....only God and that person know that. Scripture isn't a book of magical spells as avxo so crudely defines it. A person can recite "Jesus I want to be saved, come into my heart" and never mean a word of it. The humility and sincerity is not for me to judge; yet, in time new believers often reveal their true intentions....their words and actions always vet them out. I've known plenty of folks that get caught up in the emotion of a church service and walk the aisle or give their life to Christ in that service and a less than a week later have turned from it completely never to go back. It's like old expression "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". I'm powerless against insincerity and a non-desirous heart.
If god existed, if Jesus was sent to this earth from god, yeah, I'd be up for that. I just don't believe the evidence supports the claim that's all. If you provide the compelling, empirical evidence, I'll be happy to review it
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If god existed, if Jesus was sent to this earth from god, yeah, I'd be up for that. I just don't believe the evidence supports the claim that's all. If you provide the compelling, empirical evidence, I'll be happy to review it
I can't promise compelling...that's up the individual, but empirical evidence is my testimony.....from another thread:
Ok, so I hit rock bottom in July 2010 when I was hurt in a freak accident at home. I came home one day at noon to take care of my newborn daughter and relieve my wife who needed to get to work and catch up on a morning missed. My wife left, I placed my daughter in her crib upstairs and as I was coming back downstairs I somehow misstepped and fell down the stairs and obliterated my left knee and quad. Tore the quad off the knee, tore all the muscles around the knee, my knee was dislocated.....I was in bad shape. I spent the next two weeks at home trying to recover before realizing I needed to get surgery to repair the injury that wasn't going to heal on its own. I got surgery and then returned home for another two weeks of total immobility (against doctor recommendation by the way).
Now, let me take a step back prior to the accident and explain the few years before it. More specifically, let me explain the man that I was. During that period in my life I had basically walked away from God. Now I was raised in a Christian home and became a believer around 12, but did not live my life for Christ. During my mid 20s and early 30s I became very angry, very cynical, very moody, often depressed, began watching pornography frequently, began lashing out at family and friends…..I was a mean person. I never thought of God on my own. I never sought God. I just remained bitter, angry, depressed and often with a desire for violent behavior. I hated my life and I occasionally thought of ending my marriage or my life. Still, the thing that tormented me, was what I can only describe as a whisper in my ear…….EVERY SINGLE DAY…..the same, simple repeating question, “Are you really a Christian? Do you really believe this God stuff?” It didn’t come from me. It was if it was consistently placed in my mind. Was I the worst guy on the planet? No, but I was still a wretch….a depressed, angry, self-pitying, God rejecting wretch of a man.
So fast forward back to my accident…..I’ve had the surgery to fix my obliterated leg…..
During that post-surgical period I became extremely depressed, exceptionally moody, extremely angry, extremely bitter and extremely hostile. Praise God for my wife who cared for me and our 6 month old daughter. I spent that first month after the accident downstairs in a chair. I slept upright, barely ate a thing, pee’d in jars (because I didn’t want to move) and eventually refused to move altogether. Depression completely overcame me......doom overcame me. I told my wife I was ready to die. Suicide was on my mind often and my wife began hiding my pain medication (which I needed). This mindset was completely illogical and irrational, but that didn't matter to me. I was slowly giving up my life and demonic oppression had full control of me. Why demonic forces concentrated heavily on me at that time I would not understand or even recognize until a short time later. I spent nights literally enveloped in darkness, self-pity and depression. Nothing raised my spirits. I quite eating. I stunk to high heaven. I didn't use the bathroom for a week at a time. Then one evening I had no choice but to get up and go to the bathroom. While in the bathroom I looked at my face and it was grayish-white. My strength was gone. My hope was gone. I was a shadow of my former self. I had moved literally 12 steps from the little bed I finally had downstairs to the bathroom and I felt like I had run a marathon. I couldn't catch my breathe for 2.5 hours. My wife stayed with me all that night and the next morning I knew I was dying. She called EMS and they rushed me to the ER. Doctors found massive blood clots in my legs and a massive saddle-type pulmonary embolism in my lungs....largest that staff of doctors and nurses had ever seen. Doctors prepared my wife and family for the worst. Although, through the power of prayer from family and friends and a wonderful team of doctors and nurses the Lord delivered me from the ER in 2.5 days and I was moved to recovery in the progressive care unit. One doctor was pretty shocked actually!! He had already begun prepping my family for the end.
Now, I was feeling slightly better, but depression and oppression still had me firmly. It was the 3rd night in the hospital and my wife was comforting and encouraging me. She left the room for a bit and alone in that hospital room I realized in an instant that I needed Jesus Christ to help take whatever this darkness was from me. So, I did something I’d never done in my life. Alone, I lifted my arms in the air and surrendered my life aloud to Jesus Christ right then and there.
Then it happened…….BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!
The Holy Spirit of God filled my hospital room and completely enveloped me. The Lord’s presence was so thick in that room it felt like I was moving through water or some kind of glorious energy (hard to explain). Then my injured leg began to tingle from the top of my surgical incision down to the tips of my toes (only that leg). I knew in that moment that I was healed and that I would recover fully. The presence of the Lord was POWERFUL in that room!! Well, I left the hospital 2 days later and spent the next 4 months in physical therapy learning to rewalk and break the scar tissue in my leg so it would bend again. That was followed with 18 months of blood thinner injections and blood draws, but I was healed…I knew it and praise God!!!
Now, I knew my body would recover, but more importantly my spirit was healed!! I was washed clean! During those early months I spent some of the sweetest times of private prayer and worship at home alone recovering. Just me and the Lord. I felt the presence of God with me daily during that time. He would envelop me and comfort me and encourage me. My depression was gone!! The demonic forces that sought to destroy me were chased away!! My hope was renewed!! I was overflowing with joy!! My God had saved my soul and changed me completely!! From that point forward I have been growing my faith and knowledge and sharing the gospel of Christ with others.
Now one aspect of that experience I haven’t shared with many folks was revealed to me by my father several months later. The day after that incredible encounter with the Holy Spirit my family came to visit me and my father (a strong Christian man) entered the hospital room and I remember he looked at me funny, but kept interacting with me relatively normally….I just dismissed it and never thought about it again. It was months later we would sit down to talk and he would tell me that when he entered that room and looked at me he saw what looked like a translucent glow that was engulfing me. He said he looked at my wife and mother and the nurse and thought, “is anyone else seeing this?” They actually weren’t seeing it, but my father shared this experience with my aunt (another strong Christian woman) and she would tell us, "Boys, that was the Shekinah glory of God!!". The term Shekinah glory is not found in scripture, it was later coined by the jews to describe the visible, physical manifestation of God’s power and presence upon someone or something.
After that time I was filled with joy, but I was attacked by demonic forces regularly. It’s scary to awaken in the middle of the night and feel evil lurking above you, pressing in on you, but I learned quickly about the power of prayer and the power of the name of the Lord. At first I would call upon him in my mind and WHOOOOSH!! The demonic darkness was gone and his presence was left there holding me in warmth and tingling…..AWESOME!! The late night attacks continued….they grew more intense as I would share my faith on this board and with others outside of it. So many nights around 3AM (the “witching hour”) I would awaken to a thick, tangible presence of demonic evil and darkness around me, but I became BOLD in the Lord and would rebuke these forces aloud with confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ and boy would they flee in fear!! Still on occasion today they’ll try and mess with me, but they lose every single time because I am a child of God….I am one of his redeemed….I am his and his alone!! WHEW!! LOVE IT!!!
Today I just share and defend my faith in Christ Jesus….it’s who I am, but I trust in the Lord’s will to take me to next best place for my life wherever that may be.
And the whispering of the past…..the demonic thoughts that were dropped into my mind, “, “Are you really a Christian? Do you really believe this God stuff?” That doubt and oppression is all gone thanks to the my Lord and Savior. And far as the answers to those questions are concerned, they are now and forevermore “Thank you Jesus YES!!” and “Praise God YES I believe!!”
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That would or could be empirical evidence for you , for anyone else it is antidotal evidence, which is way way way down on the list of types of evidence.
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That would or could be empirical evidence for you , for anyone else it is antidotal evidence, which is way way way down on the list of types of evidence.
Well from a perspective of scientific study anecdotal evidence is the worst form of the evidence; fortunately we're referring to a spiritual study and testimonial evidence of divine, transcendent occurences is a superior form of evidence to consider. In this case scientific methodology is the worst approach. It's an altogether different playing field and must be approached differently than you would the pursuit of a subatomic particle. If the demand is a scientific approach to gathering evidence it will always be lacking. I wouldn't go looking for evidence of God at CERN anymore than I would evidence of a pentaquark at church or in scripture or from a body of believers. It's just two different things.
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Well from a perspective of scientific study anecdotal evidence is the worst form of the evidence; fortunately we're referring to a spiritual study and testimonial evidence of divine, transcendent occurences is a superior form of evidence to consider. In this case scientific methodology is the worst approach. It's an altogether different playing field and must be approached differently than you would the pursuit of a subatomic particle. If the demand is a scientific approach to gathering evidence it will always be lacking. I wouldn't go looking for evidence of God at CERN anymore than I would evidence of a pentaquark at church or in scripture or from a body of believers. It's just two different things.
yes, it probably will..
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If god existed, if Jesus was sent to this earth from god, yeah, I'd be up for that. I just don't believe the evidence supports the claim that's all. If you provide the compelling, empirical evidence, I'll be happy to review it
What do you require as sufficient evidence for the claim? What is the claim?
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What do you require as sufficient evidence for the claim? What is the claim?
The claim - The biblical God actually exists and.. impregnated a virgin with his seed causing his son to be born, who performed miracles until his untimely death around the age of 33 give or take a year or two in order to be the sacrificial lamb once and for all to wash away the sins of those who believe the story. Pretty much that is the claim in a nutshell
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can someone photoshop the statue to have "two in the pink, one in the stink?" then put a pic of our good buddy Dan Hill somewhere in the back.
The good lord will thank you and be more likely to grant you into his kingdom when you croak.
bump
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The claim - The biblical God actually exists and.. impregnated a virgin with his seed causing his son to be born, who performed miracles until his untimely death around the age of 33 give or take a year or two in order to be the sacrificial lamb once and for all to wash away the sins of those who believe the story. Pretty much that is the claim in a nutshell
And the other?
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Anecdotal evidence, for the most part, is shit. Our senses deceive us. They cannot be trusted at every single moment.
Show 10 people the same scenario, wait 1 hour, and interview all 10 people and tell them to recount the scenario. Guess what? You pretty much get 10 different stories. Perception is subjective, and our senses cannot always be the best form of data. Even in courts, eyewitness testimony is not the best form of evidence. Forensic research has shown this.
Thus, I have no reason to trust the anecdotal evidence of theists.
God will never be proven under strict scientific conditions. Until then, there is no sufficient reason to believe.