Author Topic: Evolving Planet  (Read 6583 times)

columbusdude82

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Evolving Planet
« on: September 20, 2007, 05:54:43 AM »
Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History brings you more satanic science:

Quote
The theory of evolution is one of the most strongly substantiated theories in modern science. It’s the only scientifically accepted theory that both explains the amazing diversity of life on Earth today—and provides a concrete explanation for why this diversity has changed throughout history.

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout.asp

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2007, 07:51:29 AM »
Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History brings you more satanic science:

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout.asp

No, columbusdude82.  Science is not satanic.

Chicago has great museums!  Thank you very much for the link!  It is very informative and will help educate my ignorant, uneducated self in the field of science.

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout_6.asp#question1
"Facts support or refute theory. Some theories (e.g., relativity and gravity) are so well supported that we think of them as fact, and for most scientists, evolution is in that category. "

"A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. Hypotheses are the first step in the formation of a theory. If a hypothesis is confirmed through experimental testing, observation, and data collection, it can become a theory. Many hypotheses fail these tests and have to be revised or completely rejected. This testing and error-correcting behavior is the basic feature of science and serves to advance and improve the current state of scientific knowledge.

A scientific theory is an explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is well substantiated by evidence. Scientific theories provide interpretations of the natural world that are supported by experimentation and observation. Take gravity and electricity, for example. These two phenomena are explained by theories that each one of us test and observe everyday.

Facts are knowledge or information based on real occurrences that have been directly observed. Facts support or refute theories."
http://www.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout_6.asp#question1

microevolution is a fact and it has been observed while it is happening.

Macroevolution is a theory and it has never been observed while it is happening.

NeoSeminole

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2007, 01:08:20 PM »
microevolution is a fact and it has been observed while it is happening.

Macroevolution is a theory and it has never been observed while it is happening.

uggh, I've already addressed this before yet you cling to this notion like a fly on shit. Evolution is both fact and theory. We know it took place b/c we can observe evolution happening at the micro level and have evidence of its occurance at the macro level. The theory of evolution provides an explanation for this natural phenomena. To say evolution is not true b/c it's not a fact is to misunderstand scientific terminology.

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2007, 01:49:50 PM »
uggh, I've already addressed this before yet you cling to this notion like a fly on shit. Evolution is both fact and theory.

Microevolution yes.  Macroevolution No. 

Why do you argue with me?  Why don't you argue with the website that columbusdude posted.  Read above.

We know it took place b/c we can observe evolution happening at the micro level and have evidence of its occurance at the macro level. The theory of evolution provides an explanation for this natural phenomena. To say evolution is not true b/c it's not a fact is to misunderstand scientific terminology.

Who said "evolution is not true"?  You said it yourself above, "b/c it's not a fact".  That's what I'm saying, that macroevolution is not fact.

Read the website that columbusdude posted.  Are you saying that they got it wrong?  Macroevolution has never been observed while it is happening.

columbusdude82

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2007, 04:14:09 PM »
loco, you concede that microevolution is fact. OK. How about we DEFINE "macroevolution" to be the end result of lots and lots of "microevolutions"?

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2007, 06:14:51 PM »
loco, you concede that microevolution is fact. OK. How about we DEFINE "macroevolution" to be the end result of lots and lots of "microevolutions"?
How do you figure that? Ten billion trillion micro-evolution does not add up to even one macro-evolution. There are over 3000 variations of spiders, but they will never change into a frog, even if there were a million different spiders they still wouldn't change into a frog. All loco is saying is that micro-e has been observed and no one has ever observed macro-e. So let me see; based on your way of thinking you could say lots of macro-e equals organic-e, and lots of organic-e equals steller-e; and lots of steller-e equals chemical-e; and lots of chemical-e equials cosmic-e, and lots of cosmic-e equal big bang.

see how stupid your post is.

NeoSeminole

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2007, 07:13:45 PM »
Microevolution yes.  Macroevolution No.

"yes" and "no" to what?

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Why do you argue with me?  Why don't you argue with the website that columbusdude posted.  Read above.

don't flatter yourself. I'm not arguing with you as that would imply that you're a worthy opponent. Rather, I'm educating you on matters that you're ignorant about.

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Who said "evolution is not true"?  You said it yourself above, "b/c it's not a fact".  That's what I'm saying, that macroevolution is not fact.

evolution is both a fact and theory.

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Read the website that columbusdude posted.  Are you saying that they got it wrong?  Macroevolution has never been observed while it is happening.

the website is correct. You're the one who is confusing his or her terminology.

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2007, 07:17:08 PM »
"yes" and "no" to what?

don't flatter yourself. I'm not arguing with you as that would imply that you're a worthy opponent. Rather, I'm educating you on matters that you're ignorant about.

evolution is both a fact and theory.

the website is correct. You're the one who is confusing his or her terminology.

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout_6.asp#question1
"Facts support or refute theory. Some theories (e.g., relativity and gravity) are so well supported that we think of them as fact, and for most scientists, evolution is in that category. "

"A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. Hypotheses are the first step in the formation of a theory. If a hypothesis is confirmed through experimental testing, observation, and data collection, it can become a theory. Many hypotheses fail these tests and have to be revised or completely rejected. This testing and error-correcting behavior is the basic feature of science and serves to advance and improve the current state of scientific knowledge.

A scientific theory is an explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is well substantiated by evidence. Scientific theories provide interpretations of the natural world that are supported by experimentation and observation. Take gravity and electricity, for example. These two phenomena are explained by theories that each one of us test and observe everyday.

Facts are knowledge or information based on real occurrences that have been directly observed. Facts support or refute theories."
http://www.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout_6.asp#question1

microevolution is a fact and it has been observed while it is happening.

Macroevolution is a theory and it has never been observed while it is happening.

columbusdude82

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2007, 07:18:19 PM »
loco, you concede that microevolution is fact. OK. How about we DEFINE "macroevolution" to be the end result of lots and lots of "microevolutions"?

Loco, there's your definition of macroevolution. You admit that microevolution happens. If it happens lots of time, then you got yourself some macro!!! :)

NeoSeminole

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2007, 07:25:51 PM »
How do you figure that? Ten billion trillion micro-evolution does not add up to even one macro-evolution. There are over 3000 variations of spiders, but they will never change into a frog, even if there were a million different spiders they still wouldn't change into a frog.

the theory of evolution doesn't claim that spiders evolved into frogs. Both shared a common ancestor millions of years ago.

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All loco is saying is that micro-e has been observed and no one has ever observed macro-e.

Macroevolution has been observed. For example, a new species of mosquito, the molestus form, has speciated from Culex pipiens. Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy such as Primula kewensis. There is also evidence of macroevolution from transitional fossils.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html

NeoSeminole

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2007, 07:30:04 PM »
loco, all you did was repeat yourself. Please isolate which parts of my post you wish for me to expand on otherwise I will just assume you are too infantile to grasp what I'm talking about.

columbusdude82

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2007, 07:32:19 PM »
loco isn't infantile. It's just that his mind was hijacked by a virus.

It's like a computer virus that says "Attack any idea that contradicts the Bible. Keep repeating yourself over and over."

True story. That's a common pattern among many of the religious enemies of science.

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2007, 01:32:22 AM »
evolution is both a fact and theory.

Microevolution is both fact and theory.

Macroevolution is theory, but it is not fact.  It has never been observed while happening and there is no proof that millions of microevolutions result in macroevolution. 

As long as there is no proof that microevolution results in macroevolution, and until macroevolution is observed while happening, it remains a theory which is not fact.

Macroevolution has been observed. For example, a new species of mosquito, the molestus form, has speciated from Culex pipiens. Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy such as Primula kewensis. There is also evidence of macroevolution from transitional fossils.

No, that is not macroevolution.  A new species of mosquito is still a mosquito.  That is microevolution.  Macroevolution has never been observed.  For example: a new, unknown species of something which is not a mosquito has never been observed to evolve from a mosquito.

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2007, 01:54:58 AM »
loco, you concede that microevolution is fact. OK. How about we DEFINE "macroevolution" to be the end result of lots and lots of "microevolutions"?

That lots and lots of microevolutions results in macroevolution is a theory, not a fact. 

There is no proof that lots and lots of microevolutions result in macroevolution.

No one has ever shown that macroevolution is just a long sequence of microevolutionary events.  That is just an assumption.

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 05:29:37 AM »
loco, all you did was repeat yourself. Please isolate which parts of my post you wish for me to expand on otherwise I will just assume you are too infantile to grasp what I'm talking about.

NeoSeminole, I put those parts in bold or in color.  If it were me saying to you what you just said to me, you would probably insult my ability to see or my ability to read, or my ability to understand basic concepts, but I won't resort to such childish games.  They don't prove anything anyway.

According to the website that columbusdude posted above, "most scientists", not all, think of evolution as fact. 

According to the website that columbusdude posted above, the theory of macro-evolution cannot be considered fact because it has not been observed while it is happening.  There is no proof.  Electricity and gravity are fact.  They can be observed, everyday.  But unlike electricity and gravity, macro-evolution has never been observed while it is happening.  Therefore, macro-evolution remains a theory, but it cannot be considered fact.

No one has ever shown that macro-evolution is just a long sequence of micro-evolutionary events.  That is just an assumption.

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 05:32:51 AM »
loco isn't infantile. It's just that his mind was hijacked by a virus.

It's like a computer virus that says "Attack any idea that contradicts the Bible. Keep repeating yourself over and over."

True story. That's a common pattern among many of the religious enemies of science.

Even if you could prove to the world that God doesn't exist, you still have no proof that lots and lots of micro-evolutions result in macro-evolution.

Even if I didn't believe in God, and even if I were infantile, ignorant and uneducated, you still have no proof that man evolved from an ape like species.

You can attack me personally all you want, but that does not prove macro-evolution is fact.  That does not change the truth that macro-evolution has never been observed while it is happening.

So, is this how science works to you?  A scientist is automatically wrong if A. he/she questions the theory of evolution and B. he/she believes in God?  No, that is not science.

columbusdude82

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 07:42:49 AM »
loco, what is your deal? Why do you have to say ridiculous stuff that makes you look uninformed?

First off, you have this obsession with macroevolution. You use the above web page you linked to, to justify that obsession. I searched that page and didn't find one instance of the word "macroevolution."

I searched the rest of the site and got:

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In contrast, macroevolution operates over much longer time scales and involves major evolutionary transformations that result in the appearance of new evolutionary lineages. Examples of macroevolution include the evolution of amphibians from fishes. Macroevolution is the cumulative effect of microevolution. Another way to express the difference is that macroevolution is between-species evolution and microevolution is within-species evolution.
http://www.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout_5.asp

You are obsessing about a word that isn't even that well defined. From their glossary:
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macroevolution: A vague term generally used to refer to evolution on a grand scale, or over long periods of time. There is no precise scientific definition for this term, but it is often used to refer to the emergence or modification of taxa at or above the genus level. The origin or adaptive radiation of a higher taxon, such as vertebrates, could be called a macroevolutionary event.

But you totally ruin your credibility as an educated person when you say:

Quote
you still have no proof that man evolved from an ape like species.

And you show that you aren't really looking to discuss science, just to attack it, because your mind has been hijacked by a mind virus that says: "Attack any idea that contradicts the Bible. Keep repeating yourself over and over."

If you were honest, you would have looked at the above website and found:

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Leaving the Trees

While the emerging picture of early man is often controversial, scientists agree upon this key point: hominids evolved from an ape ancestor.

Walking upright separates us from other apes.
There are many features that set hominids apart from other apes, including language, culture, and brain size. But back when apes and hominids first parted onto different evolutionary paths, our differences came down to a few features. One of the most important was the ability to walk upright.

Bones show us the progression from swinging through treetops to taking a stroll.
Like apes, the earliest hominids spent some of their time in the trees. Over time, however, hominids evolved to a life spent entirely on the ground. Bones provide evidence of this change in behavior.

The Age of Humans

The human story begins with primates—you are a primate. Primates are mammals that evolved special features for life in trees. These features include grasping hands and feet, forward facing eyes, and large brains relative to their body size—traits that you, as a primate, also possess. Fossil primates first appear early in the Tertiary Period about 55 million years ago.

Your nearest primate relatives are apes.
Apes have been around for some 25 million years. They are primates that have certain features setting them apart from other primates, such as monkeys and lemurs.

Apes don’t have tails, for one thing. Apes also have very mobile hip and shoulder joints that allow them to hang, swing, walk, and move in ways other primates cannot. Humans share these same traits with apes.

You belong to the primate group called hominids.
Hominids evolved from an ape ancestor. This hominid group includes not only modern humans, but also many other hominid species that once lived on Earth. The first hominids appeared some eight million years ago.

The hominid story is still being written.
There are gaps in the fossil record, and many fossils are fragmentary. But each new discovery brings us closer to a clear picture of hominid evolution.

Though this emerging picture can be controversial, scientists agree on two key points:

   Hominids evolved from an ape ancestor.

   Hominids evolved through the same unpredictable process as every other living thing.

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2007, 08:12:56 AM »
loco, what is your deal? Why do you have to say ridiculous stuff that makes you look uninformed?

First off, you have this obsession with macroevolution. You use the above web page you linked to, to justify that obsession. I searched that page and didn't find one instance of the word "macroevolution."

I searched the rest of the site and got:
http://www.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout_5.asp

You are obsessing about a word that isn't even that well defined. From their glossary:
But you totally ruin your credibility as an educated person when you say:

And you show that you aren't really looking to discuss science, just to attack it, because your mind has been hijacked by a mind virus that says: "Attack any idea that contradicts the Bible. Keep repeating yourself over and over."

If you were honest, you would have looked at the above website and found:


So it has come to this.  You have run out of arguments and now macro-evolution is nothing but a word that isn't even that well defined?   ::)

NeoSeminole is the one who first introduced the word into the debate.  So don't tell me that I'm obsessing over the word macroevolution.

to distinguish between micro- and macroevolution. It's apparent that you either don't know the difference or are purposely being deceitful by quote mining.

And if you read my post again, I never quoted that one page as saying "macroevolution".  I only quoted it saying that "most scientists" considered the theory of evolution as fact.  I only quoted it saying that "observation" is part of what makes a theory a fact.  I only quoted it saying that "facts" are things that can be "observed".

And don't accuse me of being dishonest.  I have been honest.  You have been caught several times making dishonest claims.  And don't talk to me about disonesty when you can't even answer this:

If evolution is a fact and can stand on its own two...four little feet, then why do "real scientists" have to pull dishonest crap like this?  Why is this dishonest crap still in biology textbooks today and taught to kids?  Can you say "indoctrinating"?

"The evolutionary study of embryos reached a peak in the late 1800s thanks primarily to the efforts of one extraordinarily gifted, though not entirely honest, scientist named Ernst Haeckel"
 
"Unfortunately, Haeckel, apparently in his enthusiasm to make his point, modified the drawings of these embryos to make them appear more alike than they actually were. These fudged sketches (or versions derived from them) have appeared in many biology textbooks since then"
 
"Haeckel was so convinced of his Biogenetic Law that he was willing to bend evidence to support it"

This is what you call "good science"?

columbusdude82

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2007, 09:17:58 AM »
I have run out of arguments??? You are the one who keep repeating the same thing over and over.

Yes you are obsessing over the word "macroevolution." Look at your last 50 or so posts :)

I did not make dishonest claims. That is another dishonest claim of yours.

If your arguments had any weight to them, you'd be a professor of biology at UC Berkeley or some other such prestigious school. As it stands though, you are just a guy with a grudge against science (because it undermines the mind virus that has taken hold of you), and you are reduced to posting the same ramblings over and over on a bodybuilding message board :)

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2007, 09:41:43 AM »
I have run out of arguments??? You are the one who keep repeating the same thing over and over.

Yes you are obsessing over the word "macroevolution." Look at your last 50 or so posts :)

I did not make dishonest claims. That is another dishonest claim of yours.

If your arguments had any weight to them, you'd be a professor of biology at UC Berkeley or some other such prestigious school. As it stands though, you are just a guy with a grudge against science (because it undermines the mind virus that has taken hold of you), and you are reduced to posting the same ramblings over and over on a bodybuilding message board :)

Pretty much everything in this post is false. 

But hey, why do you even debate me on this issue if I'm nothing but a guy with a grudge aginst science, who is reduced to posting the same ramblins over and over?  Why even respond to me, a stupid uneducated, ignorant Christian?

What about this guy?  Is he obsessed too?  Does he have a grudge against science?

"Despite the insistence of evolutionists that evolution is a fact, it is really no more than an improbable story. No one has ever shown that macroevolution can work. Most evolutionists assume that macroevolution is just a long sequence of microevolutionary events, but no one has ever shown it to be so. (Those few evolutionists who hold that macroevolution is really different from microevolution have changed their story several times since they first came out with it, and their mechanism is so fuzzy that I cannot tell what it is. John Maynard Smith seems to be of a similar opinion.)

For the grand process of evolution to work, long sequences of "beneficial" mutations must be possible, each building on the previous one and conferring a selective advantage on the organism. The process must be able to lead not only from one species to another, but to the entire advance of life from a simple beginning to the full complexity of life today. There must be a long series of possible mutations, each of which conferring a selective advantage on the organism so that natural selection can make it take over the population. Moreover, there must be not just one, but a great many such series.

The chain must be continuous in that at each stage a change of a single base pair somewhere in the genome can lead to a more adaptive organism in some environmental context. That is, it should be possible to continue to climb an "adaptive" hill, one base change after another, without getting hung up on a local adaptive maximum. No one has ever shown this to be possible.

Now one might say that if evolution were hung up on a local maximum, a large genetic change like a recombination or a transposition could bring it to another higher peak. Large adaptive changes are, however, highly improbable. They are orders of magnitude less probable than getting an adaptive change with a single nucleotide substitution, which is itself improbable. No one has shown this to be possible either.

Moreover, as I have noted in my book, the large mutations such as recombinations and transpositions are mediated by special enzymes and are executed with precision - not the sort of doings one would expect of events that were supposed to be the products of chance. Evolutionists chose the mechanism of randomness, by the way, because we can't think of any other way beneficial mutations might occur in the absence of a law that might govern them. Genetic rearrangements may not be really random at all. They do not seem to qualify as the random mutations neo-Darwinists can invoke whenever needed to escape from a local adaptive maximum.

Evolutionists can argue, and rightly so, that we have no way of observing long series of mutations, since our observation time is limited to a relatively short interval. Our genetic observations over the past 100 years are more like a snapshot of evolution rather than a representative interval in which we can search for the required long series of changes. But our inability to observe such series cannot be used as a justification for the assumption that the series Darwinian theory requires indeed exist."  Dr. Lee M. Spetner

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/spetner.html

columbusdude82

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2007, 09:53:39 AM »
OK. This guy has a PhD in PHYSICS from MIT in 1950, right?

He also admits in his book that he rejects evolution because it contradicts his Jewish beliefs.

Now he completely disqualifies himself from the debate and proves himself to be ignorant on the subject because he says that mutations must be "beneficial" to the organism. Since Richard Dawkins' ground-breaking book "The Selfish Gene" in 1975, biologists see mutations and genes as being ambivalent towards the organism that hosts them. Natural selection occurs at the level of the gene.

He also dates himself by talking about climbing an "adaptive" hill, and "local adaptive maximum."

Those views may have been held by some biologists in 1950 or before, but not any more.

Basically, he might know physics, but he should learn some biology before writing about it :)

loco

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2007, 10:19:42 AM »
OK. This guy has a PhD in PHYSICS from MIT in 1950, right?

Isn't he a biophysicist?  I could be wrong.

He also admits in his book that he rejects evolution because it contradicts his Jewish beliefs.

Yeah, but...

"It is clear that Spetner has a motive, but that does not make him 'guilty'. Calculations cannot be Jewish. Clearly Richard Dawkins, being an atheist, has a motive. But calculations cannot be atheist either. There is no religion in Not By Chance"
http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kortho36.htm#Par2.1

"Spetner is not a Young Earth Creationist"
http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kortho36.htm#Par6

Now he completely disqualifies himself from the debate and proves himself to be ignorant on the subject because he says that mutations must be "beneficial" to the organism. Since Richard Dawkins' ground-breaking book "The Selfish Gene" in 1975, biologists see mutations and genes as being ambivalent towards the organism that hosts them. Natural selection occurs at the level of the gene.

He also dates himself by talking about climbing an "adaptive" hill, and "local adaptive maximum."

Those views may have been held by some biologists in 1950 or before, but not any more.

Basically, he might know physics, but he should learn some biology before writing about it :)


talkorigins.org, NeoSeminole's favorite website, takes Dr. Lee M. Spetner seriously enough to debate him.

NeoSeminole

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2007, 10:33:06 AM »
Microevolution is both fact and theory.

Macroevolution is theory, but it is not fact.  It has never been observed while happening and there is no proof that millions of microevolutions result in macroevolution.

macroevolution is a fact. I have cited several examples like transitional fossils and documentation of speciation. Evolutionists use the fossil record, stratigraphy, radiometric dating, embryology, comparative homology, and molecular biology to study evolution. Each of these fields of science arrived at the same conclusion independently of each other. You keep saying macroevolution is not a fact even when the evidence is staring you right in the face.

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As long as there is no proof that microevolution results in macroevolution, and until macroevolution is observed while happening, it remains a theory which is not fact.

In science, fact and theory are 2 different things. A theory does not become fact after enough evidence comes forth. Rather, scientific theories are models/ explanations used to describe natural phenomena based on the facts we have. By definition, a theory can never become fact. Gravity is also a scientific theory. I suppose you don't believe in gravity either b/c "it's not a fact?"

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2007, 10:45:04 AM »

NeoSeminole

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Re: Evolving Planet
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2007, 11:05:25 AM »
::)

show me where I contradicted myself. If I said evolution is not a fact and then said it is, then I would be contradicting myself.