How do you personally feel about prayer?

[Deicide]

When someone tells me they are praying for me I generally feel like they are telling me the equivalent of practising a vodoo ritual or casting a magic spell; in other words I know they mean well but they is simply no evidence that it has an effect on anything whatsoever, at least no more than engaging in sorcery or using vodoo rituals...

How do you feel?

[Colossus_500]

When someone tells me they are praying for me I generally feel like they are telling me the equivalent of practising a vodoo ritual or casting a magic spell; in other words I know they mean well but they is simply no evidence that it has an effect on anything whatsoever, at least no more than engaging in sorcery or using vodoo rituals...

How do you feel?

I'm always thankful that others think of me and wish good things for me.  I enjoy praying for others. 

[Deicide]

I'm always thankful that others think of me and wish good things for me.  I enjoy praying for others. 

But do you honestly feel that others praying for you will say, for example, remove a tumour?

[loco]

When someone tells me they are praying for me I generally feel like they are telling me the equivalent of practising a vodoo ritual or casting a magic spell; in other words I know they mean well but they is simply no evidence that it has an effect on anything whatsoever, at least no more than engaging in sorcery or using vodoo rituals...

How do you feel?

I'm glad that you know that they mean well.  Some people get offended if you tell them that you are praying for them.  These days I am careful who I tell that, though I do still pray for them even if I don't tell them that.

Can prayer heal a tumor, grow a new limb for an amputee, etc.?  Yes, but from what I read in the Bible, these days God performs these miracles, but not in public for good reasons.  I have witnessed some of them, not in public, but in the company of a few people.

God showed his great power to the world through Moses, to prove to his people that "I AM" is God and to show that Moses was sent by God.  Then God showed his power through Jesus, to prove to his people that Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus too is "I AM".  But these signs and miracles were performed in public, not so that people would believe by them, but so that they will have no excuse.  People without faith will not sincerely believe even if they see a great sign or miracle.  Even if they believe at first, it won't last if they are not people of faith.  People of faith will believe even without signs and miracles.

Now, according to the Bible, the next wave of public "great signs and miracles" are going to be performed neither by God nor by God's people, but by a false prophet who will deceive even some Christians.  This is why I don't believe in "great signs and miracles" performed in public by faith healers and preachers today.  I won't be deceived when the true signs and miracles are performed in public by this future false prophet, if I live to see it.

[OzmO]

I'm always thankful that others think of me and wish good things for me.  I enjoy praying for others. 

Ditto.


Is there any scientific evidence or studies that show prayer to work?  NO.   

Can we make the case that prayers success is God's choice?   And only his wisdom guides those choices?   That's why some still suffer or some still lose the super bowl? 

And if you think about it, you can always find some easy excuse about what God does and doesn't do.  He keeps his work out of the public eye so that people faith in him are properly tested, It wasn't meant to be becuase God has other plans for you, It didn't happen becuase you need to learn from this suffering etc....

However, I do believe in the power of prayer but perhaps not in the direct sense or in the sense that we direct or control God to do something for us. 

[Deicide]

Ditto.


Is there any scientific evidence or studies that show prayer to work?  NO.   

Can we make the case that prayers success is God's choice?   And only his wisdom guides those choices?   That's why some still suffer or some still lose the super bowl? 

And if you think about it, you can always find some easy excuse about what God does and doesn't do.  He keeps his work out of the public eye so that people faith in him are properly tested, It wasn't meant to be becuase God has other plans for you, It didn't happen becuase you need to learn from this suffering etc....

However, I do believe in the power of prayer but perhaps not in the direct sense or in the sense that we direct or control God to do something for us. 

How do you feel about people casting magic spells for you?

[OzmO]

How do you feel about people casting magic spells for you?

In the last 6 months I've embraced skepticism far more than i ever have.   Even bought a Dawkins book and 2 Shermer books.  I believe i control my destiny and someone's spells are effective only to the degree i believe in it.  Kind of like that movie with Kate Hudson:  "the skeleton Key"  Where the witch said the spell only work if the person you are casting it on really believes  them.

So cast away witches!   

[Deicide]

In the last 6 months I've embraced skepticism far more than i ever have.   Even bought a Dawkins book and 2 Shermer books.  I believe i control my destiny and someone's spells are effective only to the degree i believe in it.  Kind of like that movie with Kate Hudson:  "the skeleton Key"  Where the witch said the spell only work if the person you are casting it on really believes  them.

So cast away witches!   

Bump.

[Quickerblade]

Prayers is great for me, it works wonders and its never actually failed me! Some people pray for money, cars and all these materialistic things which i think have no room in a prayer, i just pray for the best possible day and thank God I still have my legs, arms, Eye sight and hearing all these things we take for granted...I got to the gym alot so without limbs i'd be completely stuffed.

[Deicide]

Prayers is great for me, it works wonders and its never actually failed me! Some people pray for money, cars and all these materialistic things which i think have no room in a prayer, i just pray for the best possible day and thank God I still have my legs, arms, Eye sight and hearing all these things we take for granted...I got to the gym alot so without limbs i'd be completely stuffed.

I don't take that stuff for granted but neither do I thank an angry Caananite desert god for having them.

[Colossus_500]

But do you honestly feel that others praying for you will say, for example, remove a tumour?

I believe that if it were God's will that a tumor be removed, then yes. 

[Colossus_500]

I'm glad that you know that they mean well.  Some people get offended if you tell them that you are praying for them.  These days I am careful who I tell that, though I do still pray for them even if I don't tell them that.

Can prayer heal a tumor, grow a new limb for an amputee, etc.?  Yes, but from what I read in the Bible, these days God performs these miracles, but not in public for good reasons.  I have witnessed some of them, not in public, but in the company of a few people.

God showed his great power to the world through Moses, to prove to his people that "I AM" is God and to show that Moses was sent by God.  Then God showed his power through Jesus, to prove to his people that Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus too is "I AM".  But these signs and miracles were performed in public, not so that people would believe by them, but so that they will have no excuse.  People without faith will not sincerely believe even if they see a great sign or miracle.  Even if they believe at first, it won't last if they are not people of faith.  People of faith will believe even without signs and miracles.

Now, according to the Bible, the next wave of public "great signs and miracles" are going to be performed neither by God nor by God's people, but by a false prophet who will deceive even some Christians.  This is why I don't believe in "great signs and miracles" performed in public by faith healers and preachers today.  I won't be deceived when the true signs and miracles are performed in public by this future false prophet, if I live to see it.

I always ask people if I can pray for them, because there are some who get particularly offended.  I still pray for them privately though.

[wavelength]

If prayer is used by the ego to build itself up, it is useless. If people get annoyed by someone telling them he or she will pray for them, it's simply because they recognize (or think they do) that it's just an ego talking that wants to patronize them.

IMO, prayer is not about telling God what we want. God knows exactly what we want. It's more the other way round. God tells us what we really need, and that in fact, it's all already here, right before our eyes.

[Deicide]

If prayer is used by the ego to build itself up, it is useless. If people get annoyed by someone telling them he or she will pray for them, it's simply because they recognize (or think they do) that it's just an ego talking that wants to patronize them.

IMO, prayer is not about telling God what we want. God knows exactly what we want. It's more the other way round. God tells us what we really need, and that in fact, it's all already here, right before our eyes.

Oh...boy...here we go again. 

[wavelength]

Oh...boy...here we go again. 

What do you mean? I never said anything about prayer up to now. Or do you mean it is just impossibly stupid to mention God in a thread about prayer? Why would you start a thread about prayer if you already know that everyone who thinks it's more than voodoo is an idiot? Doesn't make any sense to me. I am not offended or anything, I really am interested what your intentions were.

[Deicide]

What do you mean? I never said anything about prayer up to now. Or do you mean it is just impossibly stupid to mention God in a thread about prayer? Why would you start a thread about prayer if you already know that everyone who thinks it's more than voodoo is an idiot? Doesn't make any sense to me. I am not offended or anything, I really am interested what your intentions were.

Alter, Du hast in vorherigem Eintrag dem Gotte Leitmotiv und Verhaltensmuster zugeschrieben, was Gebet und Reaktion darauf in bezug auf Gott anbelangt.
Du nimmst viel an; Du hast nicht mal den Gott definiert, den Du verehrst.

[wavelength]

Alter, Du hast in vorherigem Eintrag dem Gotte Leitmotiv und Verhaltensmuster zugeschrieben, was Gebet und Reaktion darauf in bezug auf Gott anbelangt.
Du nimmst viel an; Du hast nicht mal den Gott definiert, den Du verehrst.

If you take everything literally what is said about God, you fall into the same trap as the religious fundamentalists. Nothing said about God refers to him as an actual person.

[Deicide]

If you take everything literally what is said about God, you fall into the same trap as the religious fundamentalists. Nothing said about God refers to him as an actual person.

Tja und ja. Gott ist alles und ueberall. Er ist wir und wir sind er....usw....

Kommt man wirklich weiter, wenn man so redet....?

Bist Du das auf dem Bild?

[wavelength]

Tja und ja. Gott ist alles und ueberall. Er ist wir und wir sind er....usw....

Kommt man wirklich weiter, wenn man so redet....?

Bist Du das auf dem Bild?

Here's a challenge: The moment you can explain to me what space and time really is, I can explain to you what God is. Sounds like a fair deal to me.

[Deicide]

Here's a challenge: The moment you can explain to me what space and time really is, I can explain to you what God is. Sounds like a fair deal to me.

Du irrst. Nur weil menschliche Sprache in mancher Hinsicht beschraenkt ist, ja sogar menschlicher Geist, heisst nicht, dass man auf altertuemliche Verstaendnismittel zurueckgreifen muss, und zwar auf jene, die uns nicht weitergebracht haben, die man seit dem geschriebenen Wort verwendet hat.

Die Theologie beginnt in der Regel mit der Vorvermutung des Goettlichen, wie auch immer man das Goettliche definieren will.

Spekulation, Spekulation, Spekulation...ich meine, laut der Theorie der unendlichen Universen, gibt es jede vorstellbare Realitaet, einschliesslich derer, die man Dungeons and Dragons nennt. Mag sein, aber ich lebe in der Hiesigen.

Das Problem ist, dass es zwei Sorten von Menschen hier gibt. Ich brauche Beweiskriterien fuer alles, im wissenschaftlichen Sinne. Ich bin einfach so. Ich funktioniere so. Nach soviel Diskussion haben wir immer noch nicht gehoert, was Du z.B. von I.D. (Intelligent Design) haelst, was die Bibel Dir bedeutet, bzw. was sie beinhaltet, usw....fange damit lieber an, als mit dem, was Du bisher beigetragen hast, und ich denke, dass ein produktives Gespraech dann auch entstehen kann.

Spielst Du zufaellig Rollenspiele?

[wavelength]

Du irrst. Nur weil menschliche Sprache in mancher Hinsicht beschraenkt ist, ja sogar menschlicher Geist, heisst nicht, dass man auf altertuemliche Verstaendnismittel zurueckgreifen muss, und zwar auf jene, die uns nicht weitergebracht haben, die man seit dem geschriebenen Wort verwendet hat.

Die Theologie beginnt in der Regel mit der Vorvermutung des Goettlichen, wie auch immer man das Goettliche definieren will.

Spekulation, Spekulation, Spekulation...ich meine, laut der Theorie der unendlichen Universen, gibt es jede vorstellbare Realitaet, einschliesslich derer, die man Dungeons and Dragons nennt. Mag sein, aber ich lebe in der Hiesigen.

Das Problem ist, dass es zwei Sorten von Menschen hier gibt. Ich brauche Beweiskriterien fuer alles, im wissenschaftlichen Sinne. Ich bin einfach so. Ich funktioniere so. Nach soviel Diskussion haben wir immer noch nicht gehoert, was Du z.B. von I.D. (Intelligent Design) haelst, was die Bibel Dir bedeutet, bzw. was sie beinhaltet, usw....fange damit lieber an, als mit dem, was Du bisher beigetragen hast, und ich denke, dass ein produktives Gespraech dann auch entstehen kann.

Spielst Du zufaellig Rollenspiele?

I don't want to translate everything here, but in a nutshell, you are again laying words into my mouth I never said, just repeat arguments I have already disproved and claim that I haven't said anything about this and that. For each argument you bring up here I could name you a post in the other thread where it has already been addressed. Everytime I end a line of arguments you jump to one of the previous ones and start all over again, as if we have never discussed it. You are right, we won't come any further this way.

I'm just going to respond to your claim that I haven't said anything about Inteligent Design. I have over and over again in different threads. It's a thelogical motivated scientific counter theory. Such a thing is unnecessary and makes no sense. I would always ask a scientist if I want to know something about science, not a creationist.

We're off-topic anyway, maybe we should keep this discussion in the other thread (science vs. religion).

PS: no I don't.

[Deicide]

I don't want to translate everything here, but in a nutshell, you are again laying words into my mouth I never said, just repeat arguments I have already disproved and claim that I haven't said anything about this and that. For each argument you bring up here I could name you a post in the other thread where it has already been addressed. Everytime I end a line of arguments you jump to one of the previous ones and start all over again, as if we have never discussed it. You are right, we won't come any further this way.

I'm just going to respond to your claim that I haven't said anything about Inteligent Design. I have over and over again in different threads. It's a thelogical motivated scientific counter theory. Such a thing is unnecessary and makes no sense. I would always ask a scientist if I want to know something about science, not a creationist.

We're off-topic anyway, maybe we should keep this discussion in the other thread (science vs. religion).

PS: no I don't.

The point is that your proofs have failed to convince many of us here.

Why don't you start telling me if A) why questions are good questions and B) is why questions can ever be definitely answered by theology and philosophy?

[wavelength]

The point is that your proofs have failed to convince many of us here.

Why don't you start telling me if A) why questions are good questions and B) is why questions can ever be definitely answered by theology and philosophy?

If it's OK, I'll answer in the other thread, since the topic is again science vs. theology.