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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: The True Adonis on October 22, 2012, 08:55:09 PM
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This is how you Christians see it, right?
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This is how you Christians see it, right?
Good question!
Not that I'm not supporting Mittens, but I find it funny that all these ignorant Christian extremists are backing the non Christian candidate over Obama who is a Christian.
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This is how you Christians see it, right?
Detouring Obamas proverbial ass kicking this evening won't help. Better luck in 2020.
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Yes Adam, that's how they see it. Unless Willard Milton Romney accepts Jesus as his personal savior. He's on a one way ticket to hades.
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Detouring Obamas proverbial ass kicking this evening won't help. Better luck in 2020.
Now you know thats not what happened.
You are a Christian so you HAVE to damn Romney to hell since he scoffs at the idea that Jesus is his savior. Is this correct?
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Yes Adam, that's how they see it. Unless Willard Milton Romney accepts Jesus as his personal savior. He's on a one way ticket to hades.
From what I understand, most people do not even realize that he is a totally different religion. I wonder why they don`t know that.
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Actually...I read somewhere that Romney and his wife had a large painting of Jesus in their home. And Billy Graham has pledged to help the President in waiting any way he can.
So...fuck off...
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From what I understand, most people do not even realize that he is a totally different religion. I wonder why they don`t know that.
Unless they're totally stupid (most are). It was a big point of contention when he ran four years ago so I'm sure most haven't forgotten or have no clue about the Mormon religion outside of what they saw on South Park.
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Detouring Obamas proverbial ass kicking this evening won't help. Better luck in 2020.
did you even watch? Romney lost, albeit not as badly as in the second debate.
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Actually...I read somewhere that Romney and his wife had a large painting of Jesus in their home. And Billy Graham has pledged to help the President in waiting any way he can.
So...fuck off...
Really? Is that your argument?
I am sure I have a picture of Jesus in my house somewhere in a magazine or what have you and I consider him completely worthless and useless.
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Actually...I read somewhere that Romney and his wife had a large painting of Jesus in their home. And Billy Graham has pledged to help the President in waiting any way he can.
So...fuck off...
Please give the source of Mitt Romney`s Jesus painting that is going to magically save him from eternal hell.
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Most religious people will find loopholes to every argument, and will totally ignore what the bible says.
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haha yes TA you are correct. I asked my mom this very question, and she replies "i'm voting for the leader of our country, not a pastor"
if it were the other way around, she would no doubt be condemning the negro's pagan leanings
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Actually...I read somewhere that Romney and his wife had a large painting of Jesus in their home. And Billy Graham has pledged to help the President in waiting any way he can.
So...fuck off...
So let me get this straight, all one has to do is buy a Jesus painting (no evidence that Romney has done this) and you don`t have to do anything else as far as avoiding hell goes?
What about the Piss Christ, Jesus submerged in Urine? Does that count as a golden ticket as well?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/de/Piss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_(1987).jpg/220px-Piss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_(1987).jpg)
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haha yes TA you are correct. I asked my mom this very question, and she replies "i'm voting for the leader of our country, not a pastor"
if it were the other way around, she would no doubt be condemning the negro's pagan leanings
Who is your mom voting for and why?
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Who is your mom voting for and why?
romney because her father was a good christian farmer so she is a simpleton
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romney because her father was a good christian farmer so she is a simpleton
Makes no sense. :D
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This is how you Christians see it, right?
The official title of the Mormon church is: The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints.
Got any more gibberish to spew, Adonis?
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The official title of the Mormon church is: The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints.
Got any more gibberish to spew, Adonis?
Yes but the Bible states any additions to it are strictly forbidden. The Book of Mormon is an addition to the Bible therefore, it's hell time baby...according to the Bible.
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Makes no sense. :D
what do you expect from the son of such a woman ???
:D
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Mormons and Christians do not believe in the same Jesus. It's not bad or good, just something that is.
Mormons believe that Jesus is a spiritual brother of everyone ever on Earth, that he was a great Mormon, and is now the God over another planet, making spiritual babies with his spiritual wife. That's the way Mormonism works, that's what Mitt Romney hopes for as a Mormon, that he will die and him and Ann will be gods over another planet.
Christians believe that Jesus is God, and are to continue his work of serving the poor, the outcast, and the disenfranchised, revealing Jesus' love to the world.
Again, Mormons do not believe Jesus was always God, but do believe that he is now god over another planet.
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The official title of the Mormon church is: The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints.
Got any more gibberish to spew, Adonis?
???
Come again?
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Detouring Obamas proverbial ass kicking this evening won't help. Better luck in 2020.
This Guy have clicked on and lusted to more WYHI threads than 99% of get-biggers ,yet he is a Christian ???
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He's not going to hell, he just needs to wear magic underwear to conceive
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He has to go before Smith. :D
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The Mormons teach that every one must
stand at the final judgment before Joseph Smith,
the Mormon Jesus, and Elohim.
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Mormons need to repent and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour just like any other sinner. Even the most dedicated mormon is not safe from hell.
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9/10. The piss christ picture definitely got me ;D
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Mormons need to repent and accept Jesus as their personal Saviour just like any other sinner. Even the most dedicated mormon is not safe from hell.
This.
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It was a huge issue during the primaries, since Evangelical leader said Mormonism is a cult and not Christianity. I guess the Born Agains, Evangelicals, tea baggers, had to just take it.
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This is how you Christians see it, right?
What is your point?
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It was a huge issue during the primaries, since Evangelical leader said Mormonism is a cult and not Christianity. I guess the Born Agains, Evangelicals, tea baggers, had to just take it.
It's interesting to me that for 60 yrs Billy Graham considered Mormons to be a cult.. 2 weeks ago, after a visit from Romney, he removes it from cult status on his website.. If Graham was wrong about that...what else could he be wrong about?
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Nothing brings out the best in people like election season....
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It's interesting to me that for 60 yrs Billy Graham considered Mormons to be a cult.. 2 weeks ago, after a visit from Romney, he removes it from cult status on his website.. If Graham was wrong about that...what else could he be wrong about?
Graham wasn't wrong, he is just becoming more and more diluted over the years and pleasing men rather than God.
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Graham wasn't wrong, he is just becoming more and more diluted over the years and pleasing men rather than God.
Then.. he runs an ad clearly supporting Romney without saying as much so he can pretend he is nuetral.... and you wonder why people don't want churches to be tax exempt anymore..
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Mormons and Christians do not believe in the same Jesus. It's not bad or good, just something that is.
Mormons believe that Jesus is a spiritual brother of everyone ever on Earth, that he was a great Mormon, and is now the God over another planet, making spiritual babies with his spiritual wife. That's the way Mormonism works, that's what Mitt Romney hopes for as a Mormon, that he will die and him and Ann will be gods over another planet.
Christians believe that Jesus is God, and are to continue his work of serving the poor, the outcast, and the disenfranchised, revealing Jesus' love to the world.
Again, Mormons do not believe Jesus was always God, but do believe that he is now god over another planet.
CM, don't they also believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers?
I think I've also read that Mormons believe that Jesus' resurrection provides that all people will be resurrected and that somehow is how they can say that He is their Savior.
As for having a problem voting for him because he's likely not a Christian, I think most people want to vote for whoever they think is the best person for the job and whose positions align most w/ours on the issues. If religious beliefs coincide, then that's a bonus.
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Then.. he runs an ad clearly supporting Romney without saying as much so he can pretend he is nuetral.... and you wonder why people don't want churches to be tax exempt anymore..
Don't hate on burgers if you don't like Ronald Mcdonald. Go and buy a burger from somewhere else.
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This is how you Christians see it, right?
Very interesting. I wonder how many Christians will be going to hell for voting for a man who they think is going to hell.
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Very interesting. I wonder how many Christians will be going to hell for voting for a man who they think is going to hell.
are we talking true christians or just christians...
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To most extreme right wing Republicans
Mormom > Muslim
That is all.
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Mormons and Christians do not believe in the same Jesus. It's not bad or good, just something that is.
Mormons believe that Jesus is a spiritual brother of everyone ever on Earth, that he was a great Mormon, and is now the God over another planet, making spiritual babies with his spiritual wife. That's the way Mormonism works, that's what Mitt Romney hopes for as a Mormon, that he will die and him and Ann will be gods over another planet.
Christians believe that Jesus is God, and are to continue his work of serving the poor, the outcast, and the disenfranchised, revealing Jesus' love to the world.
Again, Mormons do not believe Jesus was always God, but do believe that he is now god over another planet.
You sure about that?
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I thought the Mormons were Christians that thought Jesus was from USA and some different twists on the same religion
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CM, don't they also believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers?
I think I've also read that Mormons believe that Jesus' resurrection provides that all people will be resurrected and that somehow is how they can say that He is their Savior.
As for having a problem voting for him because he's likely not a Christian, I think most people want to vote for whoever they think is the best person for the job and whose positions align most w/ours on the issues. If religious beliefs coincide, then that's a bonus.
CONGRATS on 20,000th post! 8)
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Mormons and Christians do not believe in the same Jesus. It's not bad or good, just something that is.
Mormons believe that Jesus is a spiritual brother of everyone ever on Earth, that he was a great Mormon, and is now the God over another planet, making spiritual babies with his spiritual wife. That's the way Mormonism works, that's what Mitt Romney hopes for as a Mormon, that he will die and him and Ann will be gods over another planet.
Christians believe that Jesus is God, and are to continue his work of serving the poor, the outcast, and the disenfranchised, revealing Jesus' love to the world.
Again, Mormons do not believe Jesus was always God, but do believe that he is now god over another planet.
16 years of Catholic school here, and both stories sound like complete shit if you take a step back and look at them logically.
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16 years of Catholic school here, and both stories sound like complete shit if you take a step back and look at them logically.
The trick is, not to take a step back and look at them logically...
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without jewwywood, hippiefornia, the colored hordes, and his wife and buttlover billary, Obama would be no more influential than a garden gnome on a shanjing factory shelf.
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without jewwywood, hippiefornia, the colored hordes, and his wife and buttlover billary, Obama would be no more influential than a garden gnome on a shanjing factory shelf.
Maybe so... but those things do exist right?
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The Mormon church claims that the Bible has been corrupted and does not contain the "fullness of the gospel"
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This is how you Christians see it, right?
Any person that denies Christ will spend eternity separated from him. So, yep, that's how Christians see it.
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Any person that denies Christ will spend eternity separated from him. So, yep, that's how Christians see it.
What do you mean specifically by "denies Christ?" I don't deny his existence or his place in heaven.
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Any person that denies Christ will spend eternity separated from him. So, yep, that's how Christians see it.
Kinda like I "deny" bigfoot and Santa Clause? At least they won't send me to an eternity in hell for lacking belief in them.
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What do you mean specifically by "denies Christ?" I don't deny his existence or his place in heaven.
To deny Christ is to Reject his gift of salvation, Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
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To deny Christ is to Reject his gift of salvation, Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Wow, a lot riding on believing in him... you'd think he would put more effort into it.
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Wow, a lot riding on believing in him... you'd think he would put more effort into it.
Well, you know... 2000 years of people dying who don't... and have never even been exposed to him... So those people just had to go to hell you know.
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Kinda like I "deny" bigfoot and Santa Clause? At least they won't send me to an eternity in hell for lacking belief in them.
Just call yourself an atheist and be done with it....quite pussyfooting around it LOL.
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Just call yourself an atheist and be done with it....quite pussyfooting around it LOL.
I think many people are open to the possibility of a supreme being... He just never shows up.
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What do you mean specifically by "denies Christ?" I don't deny his existence or his place in heaven.
That you deny Christ as risen Lord and Savior.
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I think many people are open to the possibility of a supreme being... He just never shows up.
Why's it gotta be a he?? ;)
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I think many people are open to the possibility of a supreme being... He just never shows up.
Those that don't truly believe will not experience the Holy Spirit in their lives.
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Why's it gotta be a he?? ;)
God came to Earth as a man in Jesus Christ.
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God came to Earth as a man in Jesus Christ.
Well, he first came to earth as an infant then... I have to wonder if God bumped his head on the coffee table learning to walk..
Did Mary say "Jesus!" when he wrote on the wall in crayons?
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Well, he first came to earth as an infant then... I have to wonder if God bumped his head on the coffee table learning to walk..
???
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Why's it gotta be a he?? ;)
Well, so far, men run shit... There has to be a reason.
I'd definitely listen to a he over a she.
:D
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Well, so far, men run shit... There has to be a reason.
I'd definitely listen to a he over a she.
:D
As messed up as the world is... gotta wonder though..
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Well, so far, men run shit... There has to be a reason.
I'd definitely listen to a he over a she.
:D
lol :D
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That you deny Christ as risen Lord and Savior.
Lord in biblical terms is simply a title of authority, for example Sarah called Abraham Lord in 1 Peter 3:6, so from your posts so far I'm not convinced that Christianity says I will go to hell?
Further evidence of Lord not meaning God is the fact that the terms are differentiated from each other in 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ"
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Lord in biblical terms is simply a title of authority, for example Sarah called Abraham Lord in 1 Peter 3:6, so from your posts so far I'm not convinced that Christianity says I will go to hell?
Further evidence of Lord not meaning God is the fact that the terms are differentiated from each other in 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ"
Yes Christians say you will, not even up for a debate, you have to believe in the resurrection.
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Lord in biblical terms is simply a title of authority, for example Sarah called Abraham Lord in 1 Peter 3:6, so from your posts so far I'm not convinced that Christianity says I will go to hell?
Further evidence of Lord not meaning God is the fact that the terms are differentiated from each other in 1 Cornithians 8:6 "yet for us there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ"
Knew you would say something like that....Christ is God.
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Well, he first came to earth as an infant then... I have to wonder if God bumped his head on the coffee table learning to walk..
Did Mary say "Jesus!" when he wrote on the wall in crayons?
LOL!!! Maybe!
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Yes Christians say you will, not even up for a debate, you have to believe in the resurrection.
Would be great if you can provide scriptural support for the belief that one must believe in the resurrection to avoid hell.
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Would be great if you can provide scriptural support for the belief that one must believe in the resurrection to avoid hell.
John 14:1-6
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Romans 10:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
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Would be great if you can provide scriptural support for the belief that one must believe in the resurrection to avoid hell.
Seriously? did you not read my post above? Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
You guys really need to read your Bible here, you appear as someone who has never picked up the Bible especially when you say Jesus never claimed to be God, of course he did, not only he did but 10 times, I will make a thread soon in the religious section
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Knew you would say something like that....Christ is God.
I know he is in your words, but I was looking for something more than that, since the thread is about what Christians believe, and (correct me if I'm wrong), but a Christian is someone who follows Christ's teaching, so any evidence of Christ teaching that one goes to hell for not believing he is God?
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I know he is in your words, but I was looking for something more than that, since the thread is about what Christians believe, and (correct me if I'm wrong), but a Christian is someone who follows Christ's teaching, so any evidence of Christ teaching that one goes to hell for not believing he is God?
Just provided scripture 2-3 posts up.
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I know he is in your words, but I was looking for something more than that, since the thread is about what Christians believe, and (correct me if I'm wrong), but a Christian is someone who follows Christ's teaching, so any evidence of Christ teaching that one goes to hell for not believing he is God?
'Christian' is a modern word associated with Jesus, 1 definition is following his teaching, of course what else would you call someone who follows his teachings but theologians accept that the real meaning behind behind a Christian is to accept Jesus as your saviour, which includes him dying and resurrecting, this is a fact. You are always trying to twist a man made terminology to fit your argument? lol but that is not how things work my friend.
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John 14:1-6
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me.
Had to first stop here and point out that the second phrase in the quote clearly tells me Jesus is not God, as he's differentiating himself by saying believe "also" in me. I was looking for evidence for your claim not evidence counter to your claim :)
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Seriously? did you not read my post above? Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
You guys really need to read your Bible here, you appear as someone who has never picked up the Bible especially when you say Jesus never claimed to be God, of course he did, not only he did but 10 times, I will make a thread soon in the religious section
I read the verse, which is why I asked for scriptural evidence. Please bold where he says he is God in that verse
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Had to first stop here and point out that the second phrase in the quote clearly tells me Jesus is not God, as he's differentiating himself by saying believe "also" in me. I was looking for evidence for your claim not evidence counter to your claim :)
You are thinking inside the box and giving spiritual matters restrictions, God is God outside of space time and matter something impossible to the human brain and Jesus is God as a man inside the domain of space, time and matter. So for you to think Jesus and God can not be one because they are 2 separate beings you are putting God inside of time. So while Jesus is Jesus he is also God outside of time so it is not like God is playing 2 roles at the same time cause he is outside of time, stop putting God in a little box.
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'Christian' is a modern word associated with Jesus, 1 definition is following his teaching, of course what else would you call someone who follows his teachings but theologians accept that the real meaning behind behind a Christian is to accept Jesus as your saviour, which includes him dying and resurrecting, this is a fact. You are always trying to twist a man made terminology to fit your argument? lol but that is not how things work my friend.
Lol you're accusing me of using "man made terminology" when your post here needs to argue "theologists accept the real meaning...". Theologins are men who have their own interpretations.
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I read the verse, which is why I asked for scriptural evidence. Please bold where he says he is God in that verse
How can I bold the impossible, he does not say he is God in that verse, nor did anyone claim he said he was God in that verse.
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Lol you're accusing me of using "man made terminology" when your post here needs to argue "theologists accept the real meaning...". Theologins are men who have their own interpretations.
I am using theologians as an example of what the general consensus are on what it means to be a Christian and explaining it to you cause you have a misconception of what it means to be a Christian, a self made perception that is inaccurate
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Had to first stop here and point out that the second phrase in the quote clearly tells me Jesus is not God, as he's differentiating himself by saying believe "also" in me. I was looking for evidence for your claim not evidence counter to your claim :)
Speaking of encounters, I've encountered the risen Christ....the Holy Spirit is made manifest in my life daily. Your verse interpretation is simply based on a lack of relationship with the risen Lord. It's not that you're ignorant, you just don't know God on a personal level; hence no personal, tangible proof. The bible is the living word of God made evident to believers.....no belief in Christ, then all you have is flat text.
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Just provided scripture 2-3 posts up.
Yes you did provide scripture no doubting that, but my request was that you provide scripture saying that I will go to hell for not believing in Jesus. That you have not done.
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I am using theologians as an example of what the general consensus are on what it means to be a Christian and explaining it to you cause you have a misconception of what it means to be a Christian, a self made perception that is inaccurate
Its not just my self made perceptions. Unitarian Christians identify themselves as christian as well, but do not believe Jesus is God.
Instead of letting the next predictable exchange ensue I'll summarize it here:
You: "Unitarians are wrong, I am right."
Me: "Provide scriptural evidence?"
You "You won't find Jesus claiming to be God" or will provide ambigious scripture which can be interpreted either way.
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Yes you did provide scripture no doubting that, but my request was that you provide scripture saying that I will go to hell for not believing in Jesus. That you have not done.
Oh so again, you want a verse of scripture written exactly as you want it written, not in the many, many forms it is already written which means the same thing. And if I don't produce your specific version of the scription the concept is thrown out right?
You and ahmed have played this little game before. I produce a scripture and y'all waved it off with "this isn't what I said".......it means the same thing of course.....but "this isn't what I said I wanted scripture to say."
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Speaking of encounters, I've encountered the risen Christ....the Holy Spirit is made manifest in my life daily. Your verse interpretation is simply based on a lack of relationship with the risen Lord. It's not that you're ignorant, you just don't know God on a personal level; hence no personal, tangible proof. The bible is the living word of God made evident to believers.....no belief in Christ, then all you have is flat text.
So I take it that's a "no" to my original question, asking for scriptural support for your belief that anyone who does not believe Jesus is God will go to hell (such as myself, Romney, Muslims and Unitarian Christians."
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So I take it that's a "no" to my original question, asking for scriptural support for your belief that anyone who does not believe Jesus is God will go to hell (such as myself, Romney, Muslims and Unitarian Christians."
You just don't understand what I'm saying, but that's ok.....I can't expect you to understand until you desire to truly understand yourself.
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Oh so again, you want a verse of scripture written exactly as you want it written, not in the many, many forms it is already written which means the same thing.
There aren't a lot of possible forms to state that one goes to Hell for not believing Jesus is God. The few you post are up for interpretation because they don't clearly sstate something which is so fundamental to your interpretation of Christianity.
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You just don't understand what I'm saying, but that's ok.....I can't expect you to understand until you desire to truly understand yourself.
Now the strategy of responding to rational questions with non-rational emotional arguments. "Can't provide the scripture, you just have to have faith to understand it"
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Its not just my self made perceptions. Unitarian Christians identify themselves as christian as well, but do not believe Jesus is God.
Instead of letting the next predictable exchange ensue I'll summarize it here:
You: "Unitarians are wrong, I am right."
Me: "Provide scriptural evidence?"
You "You won't find Jesus claiming to be God" or will provide ambigious scripture which can be interpreted either way.
Listen, you are always adding things I did not say, Not all Christian believe in the Holy trinity, most do, but I think the ones that don't but still believe in Jesus dying for their sins and the resurrection are saved.
The scripture say Jesus is God many times, Jesus says he is God too, if you think he did not you have not read the Bible plain and simple. What do you think Emmanuel means, "God with us"
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Now the strategy of responding to rational questions with non-rational emotional arguments. "Can't provide the scripture, you just have to have faith to understand it"
Oh certainly having faith is crucial, but what I'm speaking of in this instance is experiencing the Holy Spirit in a tangible way. Truly feeling the divine presence of God....sometimes so thick and enveloping it's amazing...that's what I'm saying. Ignoring emotional appeals is par for the course for nonbelievers, but that's because the experential proof is only available to believers. Wanna experience the risen God? Then you have to believe and confess with your mouth...then will you understand what I'm saying. But, if you wanna wave it off with a "Bah....emotional appeals....meaningless.. ..I've got em on the run" approach....then so be it. It's not my soul at stake, it's yours.
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Oh certainly having faith is crucial, but what I'm speaking of in this instance is experiencing the Holy Spirit in a tangible way. Truly feeling the divine presence of God....sometimes so thick and enveloping it's amazing...that's what I'm saying. Ignoring emotional appeals is par for the course for nonbelievers, but that's because the experential proof is only available to believers. Wanna experience the risen God? Then you have to believe and confess with your mouth...then will you understand what I'm saying. But, if you wanna wave it off with a "Bah....emotional appeals....meaningless.. ..I've got em on the run" approach....then so be it. It's not my soul at stake, it's yours.
They won't get it until they experience something nearly impossible to describe.
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I'll play ref.... post the scripture... I'll give a ruling ;-)
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I'll play ref.... post the scripture... I'll give a ruling ;-)
Did you see the scriptures above that onetimehard and man of steel posted? Does either tell you that if you don't believe Jesus is God you are going to hell?
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Listen, you are always adding things I did not say, Not all Christian believe in the Holy trinity, most do, but I think the ones that don't but still believe in Jesus dying for their sins and the resurrection are saved.
The scripture say Jesus is God many times, Jesus says he is God too, if you think he did not you have not read the Bible plain and simple. What do you think Emmanuel means, "God with us"
Again, please provide proof of the bolded verse.
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I'll play ref.... post the scripture... I'll give a ruling ;-)
Are you sure you are up to the task OK here goes
Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)
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Oh certainly having faith is crucial, but what I'm speaking of in this instance is experiencing the Holy Spirit in a tangible way. Truly feeling the divine presence of God....sometimes so thick and enveloping it's amazing...that's what I'm saying. Ignoring emotional appeals is par for the course for nonbelievers, but that's because the experential proof is only available to believers. Wanna experience the risen God? Then you have to believe and confess with your mouth...then will you understand what I'm saying. But, if you wanna wave it off with a "Bah....emotional appeals....meaningless.. ..I've got em on the run" approach....then so be it. It's not my soul at stake, it's yours.
I could also answer questions about Islam with "You wont get it unless you become Muslim first, then it will make sense" but of course that would do nearly nothing to attract anyone to my religion.
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Are you sure you are up to the task OK here goes
Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)
I'll get to work on those.. The Emmanuel scripture we can dismiss out of hand... His name was Jesus, they called him Jesus.
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I could also answer questions about Islam with "You wont get it unless you become Muslim first, then it will make sense" but of course that would do nearly nothing to attract anyone to my religion.
A Muslim and Allah is not even comparable to a Christian and God.....one impersonal, one personal. Nothing indwells the Muslim. The Holy Spirit indwells the Christian.
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Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
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I'll get to work on those.. The Emmanuel scripture we can dismiss out of hand... His name was Jesus, they called him Jesus.
Ok no problem
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A Muslim and Allah is not even comparable to a Christian and God.....one impersonal, one personal. Nothing indwells the Muslim. The Holy Spirit indwells the Christian.
LOL come on what's next "no I'm right and you're wrong!" ::)
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My dad can beat up your dad
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My dad can beat up your dad
emotional replies once he has failed his attempts at rational replies.
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LOL come on what's next "no I'm right and you're wrong!" ::)
emotional replies once he has failed his attempts at rational replies.
My dad can beat up your dad
These replies are pointless and childish
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John 13:13-15
13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
John 3: 16-18
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
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LOL come on what's next "no I'm right and you're wrong!" ::)
There's nothing childish about what I wrote. It's a fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity.
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Revelation 21:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
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emotional replies once he has failed his attempts at rational replies.
I've answered everything that has been asked of me....at least everything I'm aware of. I'm repeatedly asked for scripture and I (or somoene else) provides that scripture and then I provide my own testimony as well (that isn't asked for).
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John 13:13-15
13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
You must have missed the few scriptural examples I mentioned earlier in this thread that show that Lord does not mean God.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
One and only son? That's contradictory to other biblical verses which state that David, Solomon, even all of pious humans, are all "sons of God."
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
You must have missed my posts earlier in this thread where I challenged anyone to show that "believing in Jesus" = believing he is God. As far as I'm concerned I believe in Jesus.
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I've answered everything that has been asked of me....at least everything I'm aware of.
Correction, you've responded to everything that was asked of you, but did not answer anything.
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Yes, bobs you are right. I did miss some posts because I haven't read the whole thread. Will go back and do so when I have more time.
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Yes, bobs you are right. I did miss some posts because I haven't read the whole thread. Will go back and do so when I have more time.
Thanks, sorry I may have sounded condescending in my earlier reply to you. I've gone back and fourth with MOS and onetimehard a few times on this topic and we've established that we don't mean any offence to each other, but sometimes out of habit I use the same tone with others such as yourself who have similar posts.
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You must have missed the few scriptural examples I mentioned earlier in this thread that show that Lord does not mean God.
One and only son? That's contradictory to other biblical verses which state that David, Solomon, even all of pious humans, are all "sons of God."
You must have missed my posts earlier in this thread where I challenged anyone to show that "believing in Jesus" = believing he is God. As far as I'm concerned I believe in Jesus.
Lord in reference to Christ means God.....words can mean multiple things.
The second sentence is comparing two different ideas.
Couple weeks ago I provided first after verse concerning Jesus' divinity.
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Correction, you've responded to everything that was asked of you, but did not answer anything.
Whatever you say bigbobs....whatever you say.
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Lord in reference to Christ means God.....words can mean multiple things.
And you know that, how? Right, its your interpretation, different than mine and many others.
The second sentence is comparing two different ideas.
I've shown in a previous thread how the same Greek word for son is used for both David and Jesus when referring to the "son of God."
Couple weeks ago I provided first after verse concerning Jesus' divinity.
In the verse you provided a couple of weeks ago Jesus called himself son of man.
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And you know that, how? Right, its your interpretation, different than mine and many others.
I've shown in a previous thread how the same Greek word for son is used for both David and Jesus when referring to the "son of God."
In the verse you provided a couple of weeks ago Jesus called himself son of man.
In another thread I've addressed that.
Haven't seen it, post it again or direct me to it.
I addressed son of Man in another thread as well.
I'm not unrealistic, I know you don't follow MOS posts like a Twitter account LOL!! I don't expect you to know all this.
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Thanks, sorry I may have sounded condescending in my earlier reply to you. I've gone back and fourth with MOS and onetimehard a few times on this topic and we've established that we don't mean any offence to each other, but sometimes out of habit I use the same tone with others such as yourself who have similar posts.
;)
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Lord in reference to Christ means God.....words can mean multiple things.
The second sentence is comparing two different ideas.
Couple weeks ago I provided first after verse concerning Jesus' divinity.
So in other words you pick and chose, and interpret the bible way you see fit, to fit your personal belief of worshipping a human being even if it contradicts scripture.
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So in other words you pick and chose, and interpret the bible way you see fit, to fit your personal belief of worshipping a human being even if it contradicts scripture.
There is no other way to interpret this verse but that Jesus said he is God....
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God
also....
.John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
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So in other words you pick and chose, and interpret the bible way you see fit, to fit your personal belief of worshipping a human being even if it contradicts scripture.
Whatever you say ahmed....whatever you say.
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There is no other way to interpret this verse but that Jesus said he is God....
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God
How do you interpret this as Jesus being God when right after it showcases how Jesus differentiates.
It means Jesus and God are 'one' meaning, Jesus belongs to God, Jesus is doing God's work, Jesus and God's purpose is one in the same. Reaffirming this he further goes onto say how he showed 'the good works' he has done through God.
Furthermore you forget the verse that comes right after, which is an interesting point, as we already mentioned to you in the OT 'sons of God', "son of God', "children of God" were mentioned in the OT:
[30] I and the Father are one."
[31] The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
[32] Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?"
[33] The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
[34] Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, `I said, you are gods'?
I said, Ye are gods, and all of you sons of the Most High. Psalm 82:6
If anything this just shows Jewish and Christian scripture has become unreliable and Christians are able to form their own beliefs anyway they see fit.
The use of 'son of god', 'sons of god', 'children of god' was always understood in the metaphoric sense by Jews not literal. It is pauline christianity that turned it literal.
The thing is, the NT contradicts itself, so who to trust? If we compare it to the OT it completely contradicts earlier teachers. And as the OT says:
God is not a man, that he should lie; Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23:19
It is also well documented that Paul and whoever the 'authors' of the NT books were, copied and altered even statements from the OT in their writings.
Who to trust? God doesn't lie, or change His mind that first He reveals to us His identity as ONE, incomparable to anything, nothing in existance is like God. Then suddenly God becomes three, the trinity and becomes a man and is a womb of a woman for 9 months.
Plain ridiculous
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;)
:)
There is no other way to interpret this verse but that Jesus said he is God....
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God
Sometimes a husband will say, "My wife and I are one," to show how close they are or how much love is between them. Doesn't mean they are literally one entity.
also....
.John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”\
Sounds reasonable that a messenger of God or prophet would say this.
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I see the follower of the pedo muhammed is still getting brutalized.
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:)
Sometimes a husband will say, "My wife and I are one," to show how close they are or how much love is between them. Doesn't mean they are literally one entity.
Sounds reasonable that a messenger of God or prophet would say this.
Most times a follower of islam will take a stick to his wife. Such love.
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Good question!
Not that I'm not supporting Mittens, but I find it funny that all these ignorant Christian extremists are backing the non Christian candidate over Obama who is a Christian.
The answer is simple. Many Christians do not believe in abortion. Also, many Christians can not accept the idea of same-sex marriage. Personally, I support both these issues. What I find interesting is that "Mittens" says he wants less government interference and yet he favors interfering in women's rights and people's right to express their love for another person through commitment and marriage. This is what I don't get???
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Their is a huge difference between God in human form as Jesus and God in Heaven, I already posted an explanation so here it is;
You are thinking inside the box and giving spiritual matters restrictions, God is God outside of space time and matter something impossible to the human brain and Jesus is God as a man inside the domain of space, time and matter. So for you to think Jesus and God can not be one because they are 2 separate beings you are putting God inside of time. So while Jesus is Jesus he is also God outside of time so it is not like God is playing 2 roles at the same time cause he is outside of time, stop putting God in a little box.
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The answer is simple. Many Christians do not believe in abortion. Also, many Christians can not accept the idea of same-sex marriage. Personally, I support both these issues. What I find interesting is that "Mittens" says he wants less government interference and yet he favors interfering in women's rights and people's right to express their love for another person through commitment and marriage. This is what I don't get???
Lots of hypocrisy in team Elephant these days... At least team Jackass are just honestly shitty.
None the less... Apparently Mittens has again changed his mind on abortion?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/mitt-romney-abortion_n_1952780.html
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Their is a huge difference between God in human form as Jesus and God in Heaven, I already posted an explanation so here it is;
You are thinking inside the box and giving spiritual matters restrictions, God is God outside of space time and matter something impossible to the human brain and Jesus is God as a man inside the domain of space, time and matter. So for you to think Jesus and God can not be one because they are 2 separate beings you are putting God inside of time. So while Jesus is Jesus he is also God outside of time so it is not like God is playing 2 roles at the same time cause he is outside of time, stop putting God in a little box.
There is no such thing as God as human and God in heaven.
God is God. Jesus ate, pooed, and was not God :)
Unless you believe God was in the womb of a woman lol.
Oh and a God who doesn't know, a God that prays to himself while his companions are asleep. A God with companions, etc...
No, that's your made up beliefs you got from a pharisees Jew at the service of the romans called Paul. He was a persecutor of Jesus' followers.
What is interesting is that the Romans embraced this new pauline religion mixed it with pagan beliefs to appease the pagan romans and did away with God's law so that today we have man made law, such as homosexual marriage and one night stands :) Then went on for centuries persecuting the Jews up until recent times.
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There is no such thing as God as human and God in heaven.
God is God. Jesus ate, pooed, and was not God :)
Unless you believe God was in the womb of a woman lol.
Oh and a God who doesn't know, a God that prays to himself while his companions are asleep. A God with companions, etc...
No, that's your made up beliefs you got from a pharisees Jew at the service of the romans called Paul. He was a persecutor of Jesus' followers.
What is interesting is that the Romans embraced this new pauline religion mixed it with pagan beliefs to appease the pagan romans and did away with God's law so that today we have man made law, such as homosexual marriage and one night stands :) Then went on for centuries persecuting the Jews up until recent times.
God can poo and pee and can be in the womb of a woman if he wants too, stop restricting God
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God can poo and pee and can be in the womb of a woman if he wants too, stop restricting God
Can God be a tree I can chop to bits and pieces then burn in a fire?
Can God be a picture?
What if the woman has a miscarriage?
Your own personal whims and desires, conjecture, not scriptural evidence as usual.
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Graham wasn't wrong, he is just becoming more and more diluted over the years and pleasing men rather than God.
Outed.
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Can God be a tree I can chop to bits and pieces then burn in a fire?
Can God be a picture?
What if the woman has a miscarriage?
Your own personal whims and desires, conjecture, not scriptural evidence as usual.
God can be anything, he is God
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There is no such thing as God as human and God in heaven.
God is God. Jesus ate, pooed, and was not God :)
Unless you believe God was in the womb of a woman lol.
Oh and a God who doesn't know, a God that prays to himself while his companions are asleep. A God with companions, etc...
No, that's your made up beliefs you got from a pharisees Jew at the service of the romans called Paul. He was a persecutor of Jesus' followers.
What is interesting is that the Romans embraced this new pauline religion mixed it with pagan beliefs to appease the pagan romans and did away with God's law so that today we have man made law, such as homosexual marriage and one night stands :) Then went on for centuries persecuting the Jews up until recent times.
You really should see someone for you mental issues.
There's help available out there, Ahmed.
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God can be anything, he is God
So you believe God can be a picture or a tree I can chop up and set on fire?
I am trying to understand what you believe here. Why are you hesitant to answer back exactly my question?
I don't believe God can be 'anything'. It's pretty stupid. It's like saying can God be Satan? And you would respond God can be anything.
God cannot be His creation. Period. While you are worshipping a human being therefore you have not only gone away from monotheism you have crossed over now to pantheism which is a belief that God is in everything.
As always another example how Christians are not sure themselves what they believe and are just going by their whims and desires. Conjecture...
God is indeed One, but he cannot be 'anything'. It's contrary to scripture. However it goes well with you worshipping a human being.
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You really should see someone for you mental issues.
There's help available out there, Ahmed.
Yeah theres help but guys like achmutt prefers mental delusion over any real solution. Sort of like where he was asking if steriods would cure a medical issue instead of seeing a doctor. No wonder he's such a joke.
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Your God is not God if you think that way. The real God can be anything he wants to be including Satan if he choose, obviously we both know he would not be Satan of course, but he could be if he wanted to. Now it seems like you have a hard time understanding things so listen....
if God chooses to be anything inside space, time and matter, then he will be whatever he chooses, the God outside space, time and matter does not get replaced with what God chose to be. he still remains God outside of space, time and matter. So if he choose to be a tree and you chop him up then you chopped up God inside of space time and matter, while God outside of space time and matter our not affect.
See the tree that was God was not the tree at the same time as God outside of space time and matter because the God outside space time and matter can not be effect by anything inside space time and matter. Now the God you worship is restricted by space time and matter that is why you have a hard time understanding this concept.
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Religious people of any religion are all lunatics. This thread demonstrates that clearly.
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Religious people of any religion are all lunatics. This thread demonstrates that clearly.
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Religious people of any religion are all lunatics. This thread demonstrates that clearly.
Shut up loser, go put someone else in jail for typing words you coward, you have only repeated yourself 50 million times
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Your God is not God if you think that way. The real God can be anything he wants to be including Satan if he choose, obviously we both know he would not be Satan of course, but he could be if he wanted to. Now it seems like you have a hard time understanding things so listen....
if God chooses to be anything inside space, time and matter, then he will be whatever he chooses, the God outside space, time and matter does not get replaced with what God chose to be. he still remains God outside of space, time and matter. So if he choose to be a tree and you chop him up then you chopped up God inside of space time and matter, while God outside of space time and matter our not affect.
See the tree that was God was not the tree at the same time as God outside of space time and matter because the God outside space time and matter can not be effect by anything inside space time and matter. Now the God you worship is restricted by space time and matter that is why you have a hard time understanding this concept.
So now you're worshipping satan?
So basically you are forming God into what you want. You are not following what God declared about himself which is quite simply: God is eternal, has no beginning no end, has nothing like him, He is the creator, not the creation.
You are a worshipper of creation even though most dogmatic Christians would reject pretty much all of you've uttered in this thread and other threads as blasphemy and as pantheism.
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So now you're worshipping satan?
So basically you are forming God into what you want. You are not following what God declared about himself which is quite simply: God is eternal, has no beginning no end, has nothing like him, He is the creator, not the creation.
You are a worshipper of creation even though most dogmatic Christians would reject pretty much all of you've uttered in this thread and other threads as blasphemy and as pantheism.
Yes all this is true that is the description of God outside of space time and matter.
Picture a human, a tv and a video game.
Now tv is space time and matter, keep this in mind
characters and objects in the game are humans inside the earth and objects inside earth
The Human playing the video game is God say
Now God can be any character he chooses inside the domain of the tv, God can be any object inside the tv, God can be ten characters at once inside the tv, but the player is still God, you can kill the characters in the video game but the player outside that is controlling everything and is still alive.
So God is outside our reality, outside our dimension,outside space time and matter if he wants he can come into our dimension and become who ever he wants, he is all mighty, to say he is not capable of doing this would make him weak, a fake God without eternal power
Did you just say I worship Satan, LMAO, ya and you eat your own poo and wear make up, and rub butter all over yourself at night, where do you come up with this horseshit.
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Graham wasn't wrong, he is just becoming more and more diluted over the years and pleasing men rather than God.
Did you mean to write deluded?
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I saw Jesus in my cereal bowl.
End of thread.
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Most times a follower of islam will take a stick to his wife. Such love.
ahem....followers of Christ will embezzle from the church, have sex with young boys, cheat on their wives etc etc.. your point?
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After reviewing the information, the ruling is;
It is not definitive that Jesus claimed to be God.
There is evidence that some of his disciples referred to him as God. There is evidence that others said he said he was God. But there is no clear evidence, when taking scriptures in context as well as entire manuscripts, that Jesus claimed to be God.
There appears to be an evolution concerning Jesus' deity status as one goes through the manuscripts in chronological order (at least the order in which a mojority of scholars believe they were written in). The further away from the event you get, the more his deity status grows.
The problem of determing a clear answer is the fault of the bible itself. While the King James Version contains beautiful prose, the content itself is often contradicting and unclear. Proof? Hundreds of denominations claiming it says one thing or another. Often within a church itself there is disagreement about what is meant by a verse. For every scripture posited for a position, there are numerous scripture that contradicts that position. We see that on a regular basis on this forum, as well as among the vast number of denominations.
But working with the information at hand, avoiding side issues of who thought Jesus was God, Jesus himself never said the words that would indicate he was in fact THE God.
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After reviewing the information, the ruling is;
It is not definitive that Jesus claimed to be God.
There is evidence that some of his disciples referred to him as God. There is evidence that others said he said he was God. But there is no clear evidence, when taking scriptures in context as well as entire manuscripts, that Jesus claimed to be God.
There appears to be an evolution concerning Jesus' deity status as one goes through the manuscripts in chronological order (at least the order in which a mojority of scholars believe they were written in). The further away from the event you get, the more his deity status grows.
The problem of determing a clear answer is the fault of the bible itself. While the King James Version contains beautiful prose, the content itself is often contradicting and unclear. Proof? Hundreds of denominations claiming it says one thing or another. Often within a church itself there is disagreement about what is meant by a verse. For every scripture posited for a position, there are numerous scripture that contradicts that position. We see that on a regular basis on this forum, as well as among the vast number of denominations.
But working with the information at hand, avoiding side issues of who thought Jesus was God, Jesus himself never said the words that would indicate he was in fact THE God.
Great analysis.
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Agnostic007, what is your opinion on the implication of the following verses (concerning the claim of Jesus being divine). These verses are strikingly similar to how Islam describes Jesus:
"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
"I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)
"He who rejects me rejects Him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)
"But now I go away to Him who sent me." (John 16:5)
"Jesus answered them and said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.'" (John 7:16) <---Exactly what any prophet would say
"For I have not spoken on my authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)
"I am ascending to my father and your father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) <---i.e. the general population's God is the same as Jesus' God.
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Not only did Jesus never claim to be God, he claimed to be a prophet!
"A prophet is not without honour except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house." (Mark 6:4)
"But Jesus said to them, 'A prophet is not without honour except in his own country and in his own house.'" (Matthew 13:57)
"It cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem (Luke 13:33)
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And those who knew him described him as a prophet too:
"This is Jesus, the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee" (Matthew 21:11)
"A great prophet has risen up among us..." (Luke 7:16)
"a prophet mighty in deed..." (Luke 24:19)
"Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet." (John 4:19) <--Note if Jesus were more than a prophet why woudlnt he respond and tell her that in the next verse?
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Agnostic007, what is your opinion on the implication of the following verses (concerning the claim of Jesus being divine). These verses are strikingly similar to how Islam describes Jesus:
"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
"I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)
"He who rejects me rejects Him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)
"But now I go away to Him who sent me." (John 16:5)
"Jesus answered them and said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.'" (John 7:16) <---Exactly what any prophet would say
"For I have not spoken on my authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)
"I am ascending to my father and your father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) <---i.e. the general population's God is the same as Jesus' God.
Those are examples of some of the scriptures presented to refute the "Jesus is GOD" position. There are many more available. They underscore the problem with trying to to declare Jesus as GOD. The simple fact Jesus can't sit at the right hand side of himself at the throne is telling enough.
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Those are examples of some of the scriptures presented to refute the "Jesus is GOD" position. There are many more available. They underscore the problem with trying to to declare Jesus as GOD. The simple fact Jesus can't sit at the right hand side of himself at the throne is telling enough.
Please, I'd like to understand in more detail why Jesus can't do that.
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And those who knew him described him as a prophet too:
"This is Jesus, the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee" (Matthew 21:11)
"A great prophet has risen up among us..." (Luke 7:16)
"a prophet mighty in deed..." (Luke 24:19)
"Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet." (John 4:19) <--Note if Jesus were more than a prophet why woudlnt he respond and tell her that in the next verse?
If you would please, tell me what the Holy Spirit is.
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Please, I'd like to understand in more detail why Jesus can't do that.
If Jesus meant he would be sitting at the right hand side of himself (as little sense as that makes), the sensible thing to do would have been to clarify and say "I'll be sitting at the right hand side of myself" and then there wouldn't be any debate over whether he meant something different than how it reads (that he is a separate entity from God). But of course he had no reason to say he'll be sitting at the right hand side of himself because that's not what he meant. Interpreting it as such is a stretching attempt to hold on to the belief that Jesus is God.
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If Jesus meant he would be sitting at the right hand side of himself (as little sense as that makes), the sensible thing to do would have been to clarify and say "I'll be sitting at the right hand side of myself" and then there wouldn't be any debate over whether he meant something different than how it reads (that he is a separate entity from God). But of course he had no reason to say he'll be sitting at the right hand side of himself because that's not what he meant. Interpreting it as such is a stretching attempt to hold on to the belief that Jesus is God.
If you would please, explain what he meant.
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lol what is there to elaborate if he is supposedly God why would he be sitting on the right hand of God? Confused yet?
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lol what is there to elaborate if he is supposedly God why would he be sitting on the right hand of God? Confused yet?
No confusion on my part, I just wanted those asserting it's impossibility to explain that in a bit more detail.
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If you would please, explain what he meant.
Jesus said he will sit on the right side of God; he did not say that he would be sitting at the right side of himself, meaning he's not God.
What do you think he meant? That he would be sitting at the right hand side of himself?
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No confusion on my part, I just wanted those asserting it's impossibility to explain that in a bit more detail.
So your defense is that it's "not impossible"? - that's a pretty weak stance compared to being able to show that it's "likely" or "definite"
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Jesus said he will sit on the right side of God; he did not say that he would be sitting at the right side of himself, meaning he's not God.
What do you think he meant? That he would be sitting at the right hand side of himself?
Thx, just curious what explanation would be given.
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So your defense is that it's "not impossible"? - that's a pretty weak stance compared to being able to show that it's "likely" or "definite"
Didn't make a defense, asked for more explanation.
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Didn't make a defense, asked for more explanation.
Okay, so what's your interpretation of the verse where he states he'll be at the right hand side of God?
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This is just ludicrous.. its quite obvious... again like i said bfeore.. its as if you are trying to prove that God is bipolar its ridiculous... you are going to such far extents away from scripture and what it says and your own conjecture.
He said that he would be at the right hand of God.
I would be at the right hand of myself? This is just ridiculous.
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Okay, so what's your interpretation of the verse where he states he'll be at the right hand side of God?
Just another reference to the triune nature of God.....father, son and spirit.
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Just another reference to the triune nature of God.....father, son and spirit.
You can't seriously argue that if you had read that verse on your own without ever having heard of the Trinity that you would come to the same conclusion that it's a reference to the triune nature of God.
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You can't seriously argue that if you had read that verse on your own without ever having heard of the Trinity that you would come to the same conclusion that it's a reference to the triune nature of God.
Really couldn't say whether I would have or not with that verse and no knowledge of the Trinity....the situation didn't play out that way for me. Fortunately, I had many others verses supporting the Trinity; still, what sealed the deal for me was my expression of faith in the risen God Jesus Christ followed by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit made manifest in my daily life that clarified who God the father, son and spirit are.
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Really couldn't say whether I would have or not with that verse and no knowledge of the Trinity....the situation didn't play out that way for me. Fortunately, I had many others verses supporting the Trinity; still, what sealed the deal for me was my expression of faith in the risen God Jesus Christ followed by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit made manifest in my daily life that clarified who God the father, son and spirit are.
Interesting that Unitarians do not get that same indwelling and understanding of the Trinity, as don't the numerous Christians who were brutally killed by the church for refusing the then-new Trinity doctrine, ex. the Carpocrates, Paulicians and Basilideans.
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Interesting that Unitarians do not get that same indwelling and understanding of the Trinity, as don't the numerous Christians who were brutally killed by the church for refusing the then-new Trinity doctrine, ex. the Carpocrates, Paulicians and Basilideans.
Would you help me understand how a unitarian or any group that denies the Holy Spirit could be indwelt by it?
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Really couldn't say whether I would have or not with that verse and no knowledge of the Trinity....the situation didn't play out that way for me. Fortunately, I had many others verses supporting the Trinity; still, what sealed the deal for me was my expression of faith in the risen God Jesus Christ followed by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit made manifest in my daily life that clarified who God the father, son and spirit are.
That makes so much emotional sense, but has nothing to do with scripture. So basically you are following your whims and desires. I understand this much. And to suit your whims and desires you are making up meanings to verses even though they clearly are nothing what you are portraying them as.
You are also ignoring the countless hundreds of verses which afirm Jesus as merely a man, a prophet, not knowing, not capable to do without God's permission, etc...
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That makes so much emotional sense, but has nothing to do with scripture. So basically you are following your whims and desires. I understand this much.
AHAHAHAAHHAHAHA!!!!
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You shouldn't be the one laughing. I feel sorry for you.
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Would you help me understand how a unitarian or any group that denies the Holy Spirit could be indwelt by it?
I don't believe even a Trinitarian is "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit, so the question isn't really relevent. But entertaining indwelling, Unitarians would have considered the Trinitiy interpretation prior to declaring themselves Unitarian, so my point still stands that not every Christian who tries to understand the Bible will will feel this indwelling that you describe.
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You shouldn't be the one laughing. I feel sorry for you.
It is comical now ahmed....completely and totally comical.
I will say that I have learned a ton about Islam, Muslims and how they interact with others. Between you and bigbobs....it's been an eye opening experience to say the very least.....a crash course in Islam. It makes me want to read the Quaran and learn more about what I've simply heard through others. All I can say is that I fully understand now what others have told me and that I've read about.
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I don't believe even a Trinitarian is "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit, so the question isn't really relevent.
I stopped after your first statement. We have a complete and total, fundamental disconnect. Muslim says white, Christian says black. Christian says left, Muslim says right. Muslim says stop, Christian says go.....and on and on and on ad nauseum.
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It stopped after your first statement. Exactly, it's a complete and total, fundamental disconnect.
Translation - you don't have anything (except perhaps emotional) to deny the following:
Entertaining indwelling, Unitarians would have considered the Trinitiy interpretation prior to declaring themselves Unitarian, so my point still stands that not every Christian who tries to understand the Bible will will feel this indwelling that you describe.
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I stopped after your first statement. We have a complete and total, fundamental disconnect. Muslim says white, Christian says black. Christian says left, Muslim says right. Muslim says stop, Christian says go.....and on and on and on ad nauseum.
No you just say worship a man we say worship God.
You know not all christians can agree on:
Jesus is a man?
Jesus is son of God?
Jesus is God?
Jesus is a man and son of God?
Jesus is a man and son of God and God?
Jesus is son of God AND God?
How do I know? Because I was a Christian and priests and pastors themselves would always giving contradicting and conflicting non-sense explanations. You are just demonstrating this.
Hence I spent my time reading the scriptures, studying history to come to the conclusion God is not a man, and even some rationalizing, philosophizing.
The best answer most priests/pastors/teachers/etc... gave me was 'have faith', well no I don't accept blind faith. I have faith in God but it is ascertained through reason not blindness.
The only way you can potentially accept what you are preaching is if you have a bipolar tendancy and can relate. If you shut off all rational thought and blindly accept it even if it goes contrary to everything common sense.
You literally have to accept that 1 and 1 and 1 CAN equal 3 and be 1 or something ludicrous however way you split it, explaining God (through your own emotional explanation not something you got from revelation through God), that God is an egg, or God is like a 'family' or that God is like h2o, or that God is like a video game (like onetimehard gave) and all this other made up stuff.
What you are basically doing is playing with verses, ignoring verses that don't suit you, making up made up meanings to verses that you can manipulate.
Like how does one rationally mentally sane person accept that Jesus saying he will be sitting at the right hand of God... is totally cool... and that Jesus is God himself.
So will you sit next to yourself, by yourself, to yourself? What?
You response? "I have this indwelling in me, the powaaaa" *goes super saiyan* come on now...
(http://www.craigaddyman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/288772-super_saiyan_2_veigto.jpg)
I have tren dwelling in me, it is quite powerful.
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Translation - you don't have anything (except perhaps emotional) to deny the following:
Entertaining indwelling, Unitarians would have considered the Trinitiy interpretation prior to declaring themselves Unitarian, so my point still stands that not every Christian who tries to understand the Bible will will feel this indwelling that you describe.
I'm sharing my faith, my experiences, my testimony and representing Christ and I have enough humility to avoid the insults.
I pray for everyone on this board now because I genuinely care and don't want to see two intelligent, strong men like yourselves lost to the deceiver of this world. I understand how strong your convictions are, but what I don't feel coming from you and ahmed is the sense of peace and love that Islam is supposed to represent.
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Your buddy onetimehard said God can become Satan. Can become a picture. Can become a tree that I can chop up and set ablaze.
Who is truly following a deceiver?
All we say is worship God alone, the creator of us all, do not worship His creation and false deities. Worship only the God of all the prophets and messengers. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Abraham, Jacob, Job, Adam, Noah, Ishamel, Isaac, etc...
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I'm sharing my faith, my experiences, my testimony and representing Christ and I have enough humility to avoid the insults.
I pray for everyone on this board now because I genuinely care and don't want to see two intelligent, strong men like yourselves lost to the deceiver of this world. I understand how strong your convictions are, but what I don't feel coming from you and ahmed is the sense of peace and love that Islam is supposed to represent.
And I appreciate you sharing them, as I am also learning a lot from this. I've never meant to come across as insuling either.
One thing I am still trying to learn, as you haven't answered it, is what is your take on Christians who honestly try to understand the Bible and find that it does not make a strong case for the Trinity, Jesus being God, original sin, etc. You do recognize that there are honest Christians who have different interpretations on the most fundamental beliefs.
One distinction in Islam is that the differences in interpretation of the Qur'an are usually concerning minor rules (for ex. is it okay to eat meat from McDonalds or does it have to be from a halal meat shop?) but never any differences in the fundamentals of there being one God, prophets being humans, every man accountable for their own actions, etc.
Therefore, when we discuss Islam, we discuss Islam. When you discuss Christianity, you are discussing your interpretation of Christianity.
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Your buddy onetimehard said God can become Satan. Can become a picture. Can become a tree that I can chop up and set ablaze.
Who is truly following a deceiver?
All we say is worship God alone, the creator of us all, do not worship His creation and false deities. Worship only the God of all the prophets and messengers. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Abraham, Jacob, Job, Adam, Noah, Ishamel, Isaac, etc...
Lemme guess, you baited him with some situation: "Can your God do this or that?" He responded and you responded with something like, "Oh so you're a Satanist now!" or "Oh so you worship trees now!" "SEE! SEE!! YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND YOU ARE A LIAR!"
I have no doubt you responded just like that....like I said ahmed.....comical!
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Lemme guess, you baited him with some situation: "Can your God do this or that?" He responded and you responded with something like, "Oh so you're a Satanist now!" or "Oh so you worship trees now!" "SEE! SEE!! YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND YOU ARE A LIAR!"
I have no doubt you responded just like that....like I said ahmed.....comical!
AHAHAAHAH!!! Found it!
So now you're worshipping satan?
So basically you are forming God into what you want. You are not following what God declared about himself which is quite simply: God is eternal, has no beginning no end, has nothing like him, He is the creator, not the creation.
You are a worshipper of creation even though most dogmatic Christians would reject pretty much all of you've uttered in this thread and other threads as blasphemy and as pantheism.
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And I appreciate you sharing them, as I am also learning a lot from this. I've never meant to come across as insuling either.
One thing I am still trying to learn, as you haven't answered it, is what is your take on Christians who honestly try to understand the Bible and find that it does not make a strong case for the Trinity, Jesus being God, original sin, etc. You do recognize that there are honest Christians who have different interpretations on the most fundamental beliefs.
One distinction in Islam is that the differences in interpretation of the Qur'an are usually concerning minor rules (for ex. is it okay to eat meat from McDonalds or does it have to be from a halal meat shop?) but never any differences in the fundamentals of there being one God, prophets being humans, every man accountable for their own actions, etc.
Therefore, when we discuss Islam, we discuss Islam. When you discuss Christianity, you are discussing your interpretation of Christianity.
Now this is a quality post.....this is something I can respond to honestly. I will do so later on as I have to leave to pick up my daughter. I appreciate your comments!
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Lemme guess, you baited him with some situation: "Can your God do this or that?" He responded and you responded with something like, "Oh so you're a Satanist now!" or "Oh so you worship trees now!" "SEE! SEE!! YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND YOU ARE A LIAR!"
I have no doubt you responded just like that....like I said ahmed.....comical!
No I am just demonstrating that you are both misguided by making up beliefs and claims about God based on your own whims and desires, emotions. Not scriptural evidence or revelations.
Why he can 'fall trap' as you call it to what I asked ihm. How is that a trap? It's an honest question based on your responses. And he admits to such non-sense basically God can even be satan.
You see how far you end up away from the truth when you base your beliefs on personal made up claims without any evidence. You start lying against God. Onetimehard turned "Christianity" into pantheism.
Little did either of us quote from the qur'an for you, only from the bible for the most part. Islam is distinct on the subject. God is one period and it does not error in this matter.
The bible is relatively clear on this as well but you use elusive statements that people can misinterpret or manipulate.
Someone ignorant of semetic languages and statements/expression/style in them can be misled easily.
In the original texts God is mentioned as Ellohim. To a trinitarian who jus hears of this they will go WOW proof for trinity. While the reality is, Elloh is God, and im is plural which is gods, but in hebrew it is the royal plural, the plural of respect.
In French (which I speak btw), there is also a royal plural/respect plural. In English not so much. You say you for you and you for you.
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This thread has turned into complete drivel.
Bunch or religious idiots embarrassing themselves at this point.
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No you just say worship a man we say worship God.
You know not all christians can agree on:
Jesus is a man?
Jesus is son of God?
Jesus is God?
Jesus is a man and son of God?
Jesus is a man and son of God and God?
Jesus is son of God AND God?
How do I know? Because I was a Christian and priests and pastors themselves would always giving contradicting and conflicting non-sense explanations. You are just demonstrating this.
Hence I spent my time reading the scriptures, studying history to come to the conclusion God is not a man, and even some rationalizing, philosophizing.
The best answer most priests/pastors/teachers/etc... gave me was 'have faith', well no I don't accept blind faith. I have faith in God but it is ascertained through reason not blindness.
The only way you can potentially accept what you are preaching is if you have a bipolar tendancy and can relate. If you shut off all rational thought and blindly accept it even if it goes contrary to everything common sense.
You literally have to accept that 1 and 1 and 1 CAN equal 3 and be 1 or something ludicrous however way you split it, explaining God (through your own emotional explanation not something you got from revelation through God), that God is an egg, or God is like a 'family' or that God is like h2o, or that God is like a video game (like onetimehard gave) and all this other made up stuff.
What you are basically doing is playing with verses, ignoring verses that don't suit you, making up made up meanings to verses that you can manipulate.
Like how does one rationally mentally sane person accept that Jesus saying he will be sitting at the right hand of God... is totally cool... and that Jesus is God himself.
So will you sit next to yourself, by yourself, to yourself? What?
You response? "I have this indwelling in me, the powaaaa" *goes super saiyan* come on now...
(http://www.craigaddyman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/288772-super_saiyan_2_veigto.jpg)
I have tren dwelling in me, it is quite powerful.
with all do respect based on this tren comment, I can honestly say ;D ..... FINALLY YOU GOT THAT STICK OUT OF YOUR ASS :D ... See was that so hard Ahmed to get along with everyone, joke around in a good debate? oh BTW there is no way your tren is as strong as Vageta and Goku combined ??? lol, hehe ;D
Anyways where were we? oh ya God sitting beside himself right? OK for the 15th time, God, the all powerful, the omnipotent, the most high is not restricted by space, time and matter, his habitat is outside of this realm, now if he chooses, and he did, to come into our dimention he would be restricted by time, space and matter but the God as we now him would still remain outside space time and matter while the Person he chose to be, Jesus would be inside space time and matter. They would not be 2 different entities at the same time cause time would not exist to one entity, this is something the human brain can not comprehend, trust me God is laughing at you for thinking you have him figured out, such arrogance on your behalf
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Lemme guess, you baited him with some situation: "Can your God do this or that?" He responded and you responded with something like, "Oh so you're a Satanist now!" or "Oh so you worship trees now!" "SEE! SEE!! YOUR GOD IS FALSE AND YOU ARE A LIAR!"
I have no doubt you responded just like that....like I said ahmed.....comical!
LMAO that is exactly what he did, the man tried to say I worship Satan, lol, ;D that is halirious how predictable Ahmed is
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(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l186/Chaos_Vincent/GokuFacepalm.png)
(http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr235/JAS_Skywalker4/KrillinFacepalm.png)
(http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu330/cthulhu19887/forum/facepalm/49ab6948.jpg)
(http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr235/JAS_Skywalker4/KrillinFacepalm.png)
(http://static.fjcdn.com/large/pictures/fc/f4/fcf420_1037180.jpg)
So you think you become a video game when you play it. That's pretty funny, never heard a Christian give this explanation for the trinity.
It kind of reminds me of the example of a DVD player. Does the engineer have to become a DVD player in order to understand the DVD player. No, but the engineer will provide a manual (eg: revelations to Moses, Quran, etc...) and a technician/sales person (prophet moses (pbuh), Muhammad (pbuh))
So likewise when we play video games we don't 'enter the video game' and 'become the video game' that we designed.
Oh boy... I feel like I am discussing theological questions with 12 year olds :-/
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OK fine I admit it was a silly comparison, but my point was simple God is in a different domain the what we know as the laws of physics.
BTW VAGETA IS MY FAVORITE, THE PRIDE ON HIM IS ASTRONOMICAL, WOW
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Thanks, sorry I may have sounded condescending in my earlier reply to you. I've gone back and fourth with MOS and onetimehard a few times on this topic and we've established that we don't mean any offence to each other, but sometimes out of habit I use the same tone with others such as yourself who have similar posts.
No worries! I didn't take it as an insult.
OK I've had time to catch up on most of the thread.
You must have missed the few scriptural examples I mentioned earlier in this thread that show that Lord does not mean God.
Like MOS said Lord can have different meanings...like "master," "despot," "head of a family (like Abraham in your example)", and also God.
I'm looking at 2 NT Greek Word Study Dictionarys by Spiros Zodhiates:
I don't have the keyboard for the Greek letters but the word Lord the can be despotes/despotou and also Kurios which is also the word used for God.
In the scripture I posted the word is Kurios.
Kurios: supreme in authority, God, Lord
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One and only son? That's contradictory to other biblical verses which state that David, Solomon, even all of pious humans, are all "sons of God."
For me this scripture means the one and only Son is indicating Jesus and not a more figurative definition of sons like David, Solomon, Man of Steel :D etc.
The Bible speaks of "sons of the devil" which are also a figurative type of label.
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For me this scripture means the one and only Son is indicating Jesus and not a more figurative definition of sons like David, Solomon, Man of Steel :D etc.
The Bible speaks of "sons of the devil" which are also a figurative type of label.
I would have always thought Adam was the first son... But hey... I guess God was young when Adam was born and couldn't take care of him... He must have put him up for adoption or something.
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For me this scripture means the one and only Son is indicating Jesus and not a more figurative definition of sons like David, Solomon, Man of Steel :D etc.
The Bible speaks of "sons of the devil" which are also a figurative type of label.
No that's you just deliberately ignoring verses and wanting to believe what you want. According to the bible in the OT there are mentions of a begotten son, only son, first born, etc...
All of this is metaphorical, literary exageration and figurative speech. Because of Paul's teaching it has turned into the literal.
Begetting is an animal act between a male and a female. Gender is a creation of God. We are limited by it. We cannot just go poof and create life, we can only have sex or engineer in a lab to what limited extent we can do genetic engineering (not even close).
In one version of the bible it describes marry being 'overtaken by God' or if i recall how does it go covered up by God aka as if God went over her and you know what. This is just blasphemy and even amongst the different bibles it varries.
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For me this scripture means the one and only Son is indicating Jesus and not a more figurative definition of sons like David, Solomon, Man of Steel :D etc.
The Bible speaks of "sons of the devil" which are also a figurative type of label.
No worries! I didn't take it as an insult.
OK I've had time to catch up on most of the thread.
Like MOS said Lord can have different meanings...like "master," "despot," "head of a family (like Abraham in your example)", and also God.
I'm looking at 2 NT Greek Word Study Dictionarys by Spiros Zodhiates:
I don't have the keyboard for the Greek letters but the word Lord the can be despotes/despotou and also Kurios which is also the word used for God.
In the scripture I posted the word is Kurios.
Kurios: supreme in authority, God, Lord
I agree Lord can have different meanings, and similarly "son of God" is very often used metaphorically (IMO its always metaphorical :)). What I'm trying to point out is that we have a) Lord with different meanings, and b) "son of God" term, one has to selectively choose the literal God translation for Lord and the literal "son of God" translation for Jesus and not David, Solomon, MOS, etc. :) One also has to choose the "God" translation of Lord for Jesus and another translation for when Sarah calls Abraham Lord in Peter 3:6 ands other examples in the Bible.
An example of why I don't believe Lord is meant as "God" when referring to Jesus is the verse 1 Cornithians 8:6 "Yet for us there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ." (i.e. only one God AND one Lord, not "Yet for us there is only one God, the Father who is also Jesus and combined they are one")
When one combines the above observations with many other parts of the Bible which a) call Jesus a prophet, b) indicate he is a separate being than the Father, c) contradictions in the gospels which while appear trivial still show that not ever verse can be taken as being literally correct, etc. it doesn't create a strong case that Jesus is God over the belief that he was a messenger and prophet of God.
That's what gives rise to Unitarian Christianity. To argue support of the Trinity one has to select certain translations, chose certain specific beliefs of when a phrase is metaphorical or literal, and deny many other conflicting verses, and this is simply because the Trinity is non-scriptural. Had the Trinity been scriptural there woudl be no debate.
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No I am just demonstrating that you are both misguided by making up beliefs and claims about God based on your own whims and desires, emotions. Not scriptural evidence or revelations.
Why he can 'fall trap' as you call it to what I asked ihm. How is that a trap? It's an honest question based on your responses. And he admits to such non-sense basically God can even be satan.
You see how far you end up away from the truth when you base your beliefs on personal made up claims without any evidence. You start lying against God. Onetimehard turned "Christianity" into pantheism.
Little did either of us quote from the qur'an for you, only from the bible for the most part. Islam is distinct on the subject. God is one period and it does not error in this matter.
The bible is relatively clear on this as well but you use elusive statements that people can misinterpret or manipulate.
Someone ignorant of semetic languages and statements/expression/style in them can be misled easily.
In the original texts God is mentioned as Ellohim. To a trinitarian who jus hears of this they will go WOW proof for trinity. While the reality is, Elloh is God, and im is plural which is gods, but in hebrew it is the royal plural, the plural of respect.
In French (which I speak btw), there is also a royal plural/respect plural. In English not so much. You say you for you and you for you.
ahmed are you a Frenchman or are French and English second and third languages for you? Either way, you have great command over the English language.
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And I appreciate you sharing them, as I am also learning a lot from this. I've never meant to come across as insuling either.
One thing I am still trying to learn, as you haven't answered it, is what is your take on Christians who honestly try to understand the Bible and find that it does not make a strong case for the Trinity, Jesus being God, original sin, etc. You do recognize that there are honest Christians who have different interpretations on the most fundamental beliefs.
One distinction in Islam is that the differences in interpretation of the Qur'an are usually concerning minor rules (for ex. is it okay to eat meat from McDonalds or does it have to be from a halal meat shop?) but never any differences in the fundamentals of there being one God, prophets being humans, every man accountable for their own actions, etc.
Therefore, when we discuss Islam, we discuss Islam. When you discuss Christianity, you are discussing your interpretation of Christianity.
Sorry I couldn't respond last night.....had to take the family shopping and it ate up the evening.
Ok, well, I do agree completely with what you mentioned specifically in regards to how Christians understand the Trinity differently. Those sects of Christianity that deny the Trinity don't make up a large majority of whole, but they are a definite portion. In all honesty the numbers don't mean a great deal to me though.
As we've clearly seen, people pick and choose scripture they like and ignore what is difficult to explain. Me personally, I can't explain every nuance of scripture, but that doesn't take away from the core of the message for me. Therein lies the rub, "who's interpretation of the core message is correct"? Within scripture, some referred to Jesus as a prophet, some called him teacher, some called him rabbi, some called him Lord, some called him Messiah, etc....and Jesus was every bit of all of those titles and more. Ok, so how do we make the distinction? How do we say that Jesus is more than a prophet or less than the Lord? As we've said, within the whole of Christianity we have differing opinions on the Trinity.....honest opinions that aren't attempting to misrepresent Christ either. Now respectfully, we know where Islam stands on the issue so we can simply set that aside for this discussion.
When I read scripture such as the following it leaves little doubt for me:
Matthew 28:16-19
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
I've posted several other verses regarding Jesus' divinity, but the honest proof (for me) lies in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me and how tangible and manifest that relationship is in my life. That said, if a sect of Christianity denies the Holy Spirit then they're left without a trace of experiential proof and for me that proof is everything. That experiential proof is always so callously discarded because nonbelievers can't experience, test or replicate it so they laugh it off, but ironically it is the crux of the matter. When I fully surrendered to the Lord I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in such undeniable ways that I have no doubt concerning Christ's resurrection or the Trinity. It's considered ultra-cheese, but a person must become the proof to experience the proof.....there's the brickwall...."So I have to believe with no proof to get the proof? That's stupid." There's a ton of proof, but everyone wants peer-reviewed, validated, tested, replicable proof...they want stuff they can touch and feel and see. As a believer I have all of that......except I haven't seen God....may have seen an angel once, but that's another story LOL. Again, it's all about that part of the Trinity that arrived at Pentecost known as the Jesus Christ's helper the Holy Spirit.
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Please, I'd like to understand in more detail why Jesus can't do that.
Why Jesus can't sit at the right hand of himself?
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but the honest proof (for me) lies in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me and how tangible and manifest that relationship is in my life.
So in other words as I've already stated you have elusive verses that are manipulated to represent what you want to see. And you continue to ignore verses which demonstrate Jesus as merely a human being that could not do anything without God and was only doing God's decrees.
Your ultimate proof is whats 'indwelling in you' thats not proof at all. It's as good as onetimehard talking about video games -_-
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So in other words as I've already stated you have elusive verses that are manipulated to represent what you want to see. And you continue to ignore verses which demonstrate Jesus as merely a human being that could not do anything without God and was only doing God's decrees.
Your ultimate proof is whats 'indwelling in you' thats not proof at all. It's as good as onetimehard talking about video games -_-
I've never manipulated any verses, what I presented above is straightforward. I also don't ignore verses that represent Jesus' humanity either. God came as a man in Jesus Christ to fulfill what Israel was unable to do, establish a new convenant, and to act as an example so that others may understand how best to live as follower of God and how to fellowship with other men and women. I've covered this before....a few times actually.
Yes, the ultimate, most convincing proof for me is my relationship with the Holy Spirit and yes I understand that's meaningless to you.....you told me several times.
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Sure you manipulate verses all the time, like the verse about Jesus being at the right hand of God.
It boggles the mind how one can accept that and then say Jesus and God are the same.
Or the various verses were Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Not knowing. Not able. Etc...
I know all too well about this, even back in school and in church where it would be explained that it was because God wanted to 'be like us' yet there is no verse where it says God wanted to be like us so he did human things.
It's just a constant back and forth really. You are not proving anything but giving an emotional "its in me dwelling in me" and manipulating verses or picking and chosing verses you want and representing them in a manipulative way.
Jesus and God are not the same. If Jesus doesn't know somethng he is not God.
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Sorry I couldn't respond last night.....had to take the family shopping and it ate up the evening.
Ok, well, I do agree completely with what you mentioned specifically in regards to how Christians understand the Trinity differently. Those sects of Christianity that deny the Trinity don't make up a large majority of whole, but they are a definite portion. In all honesty the numbers don't mean a great deal to me though.
As we've clearly seen, people pick and choose scripture they like and ignore what is difficult to explain. Me personally, I can't explain every nuance of scripture, but that doesn't take away from the core of the message for me. Therein lies the rub, "who's interpretation of the core message is correct"? Within scripture, some referred to Jesus as a prophet, some called him teacher, some called him rabbi, some called him Lord, some called him Messiah, etc....and Jesus was every bit of all of those titles and more. Ok, so how do we make the distinction? How do we say that Jesus is more than a prophet or less than the Lord? As we've said, within the whole of Christianity we have differing opinions on the Trinity.....honest opinions that aren't attempting to misrepresent Christ either. Now respectfully, we know where Islam stands on the issue so we can simply set that aside for this discussion.
When I read scripture such as the following it leaves little doubt for me:
Matthew 28:16-19
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
I've posted several other verses regarding Jesus' divinity, but the honest proof (for me) lies in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me and how tangible and manifest that relationship is in my life. That said, if a sect of Christianity denies the Holy Spirit then they're left without a trace of experiential proof and for me that proof is everything. That experiential proof is always so callously discarded because nonbelievers can't experience, test or replicate it so they laugh it off, but ironically it is the crux of the matter. When I fully surrendered to the Lord I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in such undeniable ways that I have no doubt concerning Christ's resurrection or the Trinity. It's considered ultra-cheese, but a person must become the proof to experience the proof.....there's the brickwall...."So I have to believe with no proof to get the proof? That's stupid." There's a ton of proof, but everyone wants peer-reviewed, validated, tested, replicable proof...they want stuff they can touch and feel and see. As a believer I have all of that......except I haven't seen God....may have seen an angel once, but that's another story LOL. Again, it's all about that part of the Trinity that arrived at Pentecost known as the Jesus Christ's helper the Holy Spirit.
No problem, hope you didn't have to spend too much shopping :)
I'll comment on the two verses below, first wanted to share my overall thought after reading your response is that there is a lot of Christian theology up for interpretation, with very fundamental differences in possible interpretations. I personally believe that God would not allow his final message to be obscure and up for interpretation and debate, which is one reason I believe in Islam as there are no grey areas or uncertainty over fundamentals of whether God lived as a human (I find it even awkward typing that), whether God is triune or truly One, etc. So one can choose between a) a religion with no unanimous interpretation, and hope that your interpretation is correct, or b) a religion that leaves no fundamentals to interpretation.
Also regarding the # of Christian follows who are Unitarian, yes they are a relative minority, but this is largely because historic Unitarians were brutally murdered/eliminated by the church for objecting to the Trinity in the first several hundred years. Nowdays of course no one is killed for interpretation, but the reason Unitarians today are a minority is because Christianity had already grown while forcefully eliminating Unitarians more so than due to objective followers considering trinitiarian vs unitarian interpretations.
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Matthew 28:16-19
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
I believe its "they worshipped him" phrase you're referring to here. Peter was also "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 (http://bible.cc/acts/10-25.htm). The word here is proskuneo, which also could mean bowing to. Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23 .
The true word of worship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but not once referring to Jesus.
Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
We've discussed a lot already over evidences that the "son" title in the Bible is metaphorical only.
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I believe its "they worshipped him" phrase you're referring to here. Peter was also "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 (http://bible.cc/acts/10-25.htm). The word here is proskuneo, which also could mean bowing to. Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23 .
The true word of worship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but not once referring to Jesus.
We've discussed a lot already over evidences that the "son" title in the Bible is metaphorical only.
I hate to burst your bubble but that was a one sided conversation on your behalf ;) :)
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I believe its "they worshipped him" phrase you're referring to here. Peter was also "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 (http://bible.cc/acts/10-25.htm). The word here is proskuneo, which also could mean bowing to. Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23 .
The true word of worship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but not once referring to Jesus.
We've discussed a lot already over evidences that the "son" title in the Bible is metaphorical only.
I was referring to the father, son, spirit references. One directly from Christ and the other Matthew's inspired description of the Christ's baptism....Son of God being baptized, Father God's voice from heaven affirming him and the Holy Spirit "descending like a dove and alighting on him".
That's it.
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Here's a bit more scripture concerning the Trinity...straight from Christ:
John 14
Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
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I was referring to the father, son, spirit references. One directly from Christ and the other Matthew's inspired description of the Christ's baptism....Son of God being baptized, Father God's voice from heaven affirming him and the Holy Spirit "descending like a dove and alighting on him".
That's it.
Okay, yes the verse does refer to father, son and holy spirit, but it's interpretation that determines whether one concludes all three are partners in divinity, or whether only the "father" term refers to God, with son being a human (since it's been shown countless times that many humans can bear this title based on righteousness), and holy spirit an angel or something else.
I've bolded some texts here that show support for a God/Prophet relationship than a God/God relationship, and one phrase which tells me the "holy spirit" is separate as well, just to show again that scripture does not make a strong case for the trinity:
Here's a bit more scripture concerning the Trinity...straight from Christ:
John 14
Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. (I bolded this because it shows that saying one is "in" the other does not mean literally, otherwise we would all be Jesus and God) 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
This phenomen is summarized by the quote of William Blake in "The Everlasting Gospel":
Both read the Bible day and night,
But thou read'st black where I read white.
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Really? Is that your argument?
I am sure I have a picture of Jesus in my house somewhere in a magazine or what have you and I consider him completely worthless and useless.
Just like your own monotheistic cult?
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You know not all christians can agree on:
Jesus is a man?
Jesus is son of God?
Jesus is God?
Jesus is a man and son of God?
Jesus is a man and son of God and God?
Jesus is son of God AND God?
How do I know? Because I was a Christian and priests and pastors themselves would always giving contradicting and conflicting non-sense explanations. You are just demonstrating this.
Hence I spent my time reading the scriptures, studying history to come to the conclusion God is not a man, and even some rationalizing, philosophizing.
I had a recent experience that totally reminded me of this post of yours and got me thinking, "That post was sooo true."
I texted one of my Christian friends (who I hadn't previously talked about religion much to) saying that I've started reading the bible, and sent her the questions about why Jesus calls himself a prophet, why he prays, etc. if he's God. She replied and said,
"I dont believe Jesus is God."
First I'm surprised because I assumed most Christians believe Jesus is God, so I reply and ask
"Don't you believe that Jesus is God in the Trinity?"
She replies with, "No, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both divine but they are not God."
So I ask, "I thought a divine human is an oxymoron? What do you mean by this?"
She goes, "Divine means god like."
I reply, "So would that make Moses, David, Solomon, etc. divine as well?"
Her reply, "I'm not sure, I'm more of a New Testament person."
My last reply, "Okay, I was just trying to understand how you differentiate Jesus from other prophets or holy men with the characteristic of him being divine. Also Jesus did teach the Old Testament law."
Silence since then, she may even be offended but more likely just she is just confused herself and doesn't know how to respond.
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Well that's what I was trying to say, having been a christian, getting a straight answer out of any chrisitan onto what their doctrine, dogma, fundementals of belief are is very confusing. Even priests, pastors, preachers, etc... everyone gives their own version and accord.
It's not based on evidence, but mere conjecture and blind faith... whatever they conjure up themselves from what they heard... yet most christians will not know what's in the bible.
My mother and I did not know that pork is forbidden in the bible and that alcohol is over what was it now.. like 70 times cursed and discouraged. Amongst other things. Until you actually start reading the bible for yourself.
If you read the bible without any church meddling or trinitarian preaching, you would conclude that Jesus was just a man sent by God doing God's will. And you would realize that the majority of the new testament is literlaly ramblings of one man's own writings about himself and what he tried to enforce, how he argued with people etc... (Paul and his letters)
When in surah al-fatiha Allah (swt) says:
"In the name of God, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
All praise and thanks is for to God, [The] Creator, Owner, Sustainer of the Worlds.
The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful.
Owner of the Day of Recompense.
You alone do we worship and You alone we seek for help.
Guide us to the Straight Path.
The path of those whom Your blessings are upon, Not of those who You have cursed nor of those who have gone astray."
The part of those who are cursed refers to the Jews who have been given everything from God but had no faith and were haughty. The later part refers to Christians who have faith but have gone astray -- misguided.
It really made a lot of sense... if you look back at how Jews treated the prophets including Jesus and that they had God's law but they always tried to be tricky... and then the Christians who do not know who or what to follow and hence are misguided.. everyone just follows what they want.
It's common... even when I was back in school since there is no 'law' to be followed, everyone makes up their own rules and beliefs. The bible is just there for 'reference' and 'inspiration' but when it comes to the old testament it's like it's there for no other purpose as nothing is really folloowed from it except selectively.
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I had a recent experience that totally reminded me of this post of yours and got me thinking, "That post was sooo true."
I texted one of my Christian friends (who I hadn't previously talked about religion much to) saying that I've started reading the bible, and sent her the questions about why Jesus calls himself a prophet, why he prays, etc. if he's God. She replied and said,
"I dont believe Jesus is God."
First I'm surprised because I assumed most Christians believe Jesus is God, so I reply and ask
"Don't you believe that Jesus is God in the Trinity?"
She replies with, "No, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both divine but they are not God."
So I ask, "I thought a divine human is an oxymoron? What do you mean by this?"
She goes, "Divine means god like."
I reply, "So would that make Moses, David, Solomon, etc. divine as well?"
Her reply, "I'm not sure, I'm more of a New Testament person."
My last reply, "Okay, I was just trying to understand how you differentiate Jesus from other prophets or holy men with the characteristic of him being divine. Also Jesus did teach the Old Testament law."
Silence since then, she may even be offended but more likely just she is just confused herself and doesn't know how to respond.
We've gone over this before....
And here'd the answer: because according to the Christian view, the Bible is written by men whose written words are inspired by God and the Holy Spirit.
The Bible declares Jesus as the Son of God and therefore just as in all other religions where people follow the words of the holy men who have written the texts and rely on faith, so too is it the same in Christianity.
There are many different religions existing on this planet, many different holy texts and many different interpretations. They all have their own claims and counter-claims on why they are right.
And if there's one things I've learned from studying history is that metaphysical debates are a complete waste of time as no-one's views are ever changed.
A person's religion is mostly determined on which part of the world they were born, their ethnicity, culture, background etc.
If you were an Asian from South-East Asia, you'd probably be Buddhist.....if you were a Black African from the Caribbean, you'd probably be Christian with a small hint of local 'voodoo' culture thrown in, if you were an Indian you'd probably be Hindu etc.
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A person's religion is mostly determined on which part of the world they were born, their ethnicity, culture, background etc.
If you were an Asian from South-East Asia, you'd probably be Buddhist.....if you were a Black African from the Caribbean, you'd probably be Christian with a small hint of local 'voodoo' culture thrown in, if you were an Indian you'd probably be Hindu etc.
So...... it isn't a matter of the holy spirit and Jesus coming into your heart and saving you? It has more to do with where and whom you were born to? Well that is a let down...
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We've gone over this before....
And here'd the answer: because according to the Christian view, the Bible is written by men whose written words are inspired by God and the Holy Spirit.
The Bible declares Jesus as the Son of God and therefore just as in all other religions where people follow the words of the holy men who have written the texts and rely on faith, so too is it the same in Christianity.
There are many different religions existing on this planet, many different holy texts and many different interpretations. They all have their own claims and counter-claims on why they are right.
And if there's one things I've learned from studying history is that metaphysical debates are a complete waste of time as no-one's views are ever changed.
A person's religion is mostly determined on which part of the world they were born, their ethnicity, culture, background etc.
If you were an Asian from South-East Asia, you'd probably be Buddhist.....if you were a Black African from the Caribbean, you'd probably be Christian with a small hint of local 'voodoo' culture thrown in, if you were an Indian you'd probably be Hindu etc.
It's also been discussed many times that while you're correct in saying that all religions have different interpretations, the matters of difference within Islam are not on the fundamental beliefs (ex. it's clear that God is God, Muhammad is a human, Jesus is a human, and there's no "two in one" or "three in one" only differences of opinion are over certain rulings, what is permissible or not, etc.) The reason Christianity has this Trinity concept which everyone interprets differently while still claiming to be under the "Christian" banner is because the Bible contradicts itself by implying (although not directly stating) that Jesus is God and at the same time stating in numerous places that he prayed to God, was a prophet, etc. Instead of admitting that there are contradictions in this man-written book, Christians try to pick and choose which verses they believe in or come up with interpetations that try to satisfy the contradiction of Jesus being both prophet and God (such as the Trinity) that don't make any sense at all. And when questioned about these contradictions, instead of realizing their scripture has been corrupted they resort to "you just have to have faith and then it will make sense to you" line. Therefore the difference in interpretation of the Bible is not in any way similar to the differences of interpretation of the Quran.
Also true that generally people keep the religious identity they are born with, because most people don't care enough to question what they have been taught to either find inconsistencies or something that makes sense. So a Christian who honestly critiques his religion will likely leave it (as many have), some Muslims may leave Islam as well but in much much smaller quantity. Practically ever Muslim personally knows several Christian converts to Islam, yet when you ask a Christian if they know a Muslim who converted to Christianity its almost unheard of. Islam has the most converts of any other religion in the world (confirmed by Guiness Book of World Records) and is fastest growing.
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Bro how many times do we have to explain it to you bro^^^^^^
God in the human form can pray to God outside of the realm of physiques cause he does not require Time space and matter, that is not a problem for us to believe that Jesus prayed to God and that they are one in the same, sure it is a little hocus pocus, but so is the beginning of time, so is the creation of mankind, so is your entire Koran, so is the Bible (talking snake, talking donkey, parting of the seas, stick turning into a serpent, walking on water etc. so stop being a hypocrite and acting like the hocus pocus in your book is more credible then the hocus pocus in my book, at least Christians can admit it.
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God in the human form can pray to God outside of the realm of physiques cause he does not require Time space and matter,
Where is this "God in human form". Time and space matter mentioned in the bible? Outside of the realm of physiques (lol physics?) God in the human form can pray to God outside of the realm of video games? what?!?!
Your own concoctions!! out of thin air!
Much like tbombz, 'love your enemy let them kill you'. Complete concoction in beliefs.
that is not a problem for us to believe that Jesus prayed to God and that they are one in the same, sure it is a little hocus pocus,
Yes its ALOT of hocus pocus, your conjecture.
but so is the beginning of time, so is the creation of mankind, so is your entire Koran, so is the Bible (talking snake, talking donkey, parting of the seas, stick turning into a serpent, walking on water etc. so stop being a hypocrite and acting like the hocus pocus in your book is more credible then the hocus pocus in my book, at least Christians can admit it.
What? What does any of what you just said even mean?
You are calling it all 'hocus pocus'? WHAT? What faith do you have?
The difference between what we believe and what you are conjuring up and mixing up as your beliefs is that we know who God is, and we know who Jesus is. THere is no hocus pocus.
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What faith do I have.? so you can logically explain the beginning of time in scientific terms, logically, and withen the confounds of physiques? No you can't so don't act stupid there is no logical explanation of Moses splitting waters, it had to involve a power we can not understand outside of the laws of physiques, wow bonehead ;D
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What faith do I have.? so you can logically explain the beginning of time in scientific terms, logically, and withen the confounds of physiques? No you can't so don't act stupid there is no logical explanation of Moses splitting waters, it had to involve a power we can not understand outside of the laws of physiques, wow bonehead ;D
Wow so you yourself mock the bible?
We don't see the stories told to us by the prophets and messengers as 'hocus pocus'.
Apparently as many christians believe the miracles Jesus did make him "God",, now you are calling that hocus pocus too. Even though the scriptures say he did what he did through the power granted to him by God (as the qur'an says too).
Certain things you call 'hocus pocus' or 'magic' if you will, may be not understood by our lack of knowledge, yet we bolster about our 'technological advancements'.
The qur'an speaks about people hearing/seeing what they did, their lives and actions being shown again to them. This was 'outrageous' and madness for arabs to believe. Yet we have invented today cameras/televisions and microphones/speakers. How outrageous is it now?
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Now you are arguing over a stupid term, `hocus pocus`is just a term used to describe something that defies the laws of physics, you can not compare that to TV`s and other technologies bro.
Certain things you call 'hocus pocus' or 'magic' if you will, may be not understood by our lack of knowledge
The above quote from you I agree with 100%. Now Jesus praying to God and being one falls into the above statement you made, but your interpretation of
it is that it has to follow the laws of physics or it does not make sense right?
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It's also been discussed many times that while you're correct in saying that all religions have different interpretations, the matters of difference within Islam are not on the fundamental beliefs (ex. it's clear that God is God, Muhammad is a human, Jesus is a human, and there's no "two in one" or "three in one" only differences of opinion are over certain rulings, what is permissible or not, etc.) The reason Christianity has this Trinity concept which everyone interprets differently while still claiming to be under the "Christian" banner is because the Bible contradicts itself by implying (although not directly stating) that Jesus is God and at the same time stating in numerous places that he prayed to God, was a prophet, etc. Instead of admitting that there are contradictions in this man-written book, Christians try to pick and choose which verses they believe in or come up with interpetations that try to satisfy the contradiction of Jesus being both prophet and God (such as the Trinity) that don't make any sense at all. And when questioned about these contradictions, instead of realizing their scripture has been corrupted they resort to "you just have to have faith and then it will make sense to you" line. Therefore the difference in interpretation of the Bible is not in any way similar to the differences of interpretation of the Quran.
Also true that generally people keep the religious identity they are born with, because most people don't care enough to question what they have been taught to either find inconsistencies or something that makes sense. So a Christian who honestly critiques his religion will likely leave it (as many have), some Muslims may leave Islam as well but in much much smaller quantity. Practically ever Muslim personally knows several Christian converts to Islam, yet when you ask a Christian if they know a Muslim who converted to Christianity its almost unheard of. Islam has the most converts of any other religion in the world (confirmed by Guiness Book of World Records) and is fastest growing.
I thought you were an intelligent person but you sound like just another typical Moslem who tries to convince himself that his cult is the 'right' one by trying to disprove Christianity and all other groups instead of looking at the gaping holes and inconsistencies of his own sect.
You're Moslem because you're from a Middle-Eastern/Arabic background so of course you will say the 'truth' is there for all other to accept. But if you were born a Thai person in Thailand and part of that culture and mentality....you would be Buddhist.
If you were born as an Indian and part of that culture and sharing in that heritage.....you would be Hindu.
The reason Westerners question more etc is because they are generally from more advanced societies which are also more 'liberal' in that they promote more critical thinking.
In contrast most Moslems are less educated and poorer and living in a more primitive society. One day when they develop further, they will probably think more critically like Westerners.
With regards to the 'fastest' growing cult aspect, it's because like most non-developed and backwards societies their populations breed like rabbits even though they're poor and won't be able to properly support their children. Which in turn leads to more poverty, less education and continues the cycle of being part of a backwards society.
Just look at the countries of these 'Moslem converts', they're mostly very poor.
Anyway about the inconsistencies of Islam:
Your cult offers SEX as reward in the afterlife with an ORGY of 50 'virgins' in a surrounding which looks suspiciously like the setting of an Oasis in Arabia.
What kind of demented mind offers such vices as 'rewards' in the afterlife yet frowns on even showing a small piece of flesh on Earth and shuns anything sexual?
Not to mention the fact that your people pray to a METEORITE which was used for Pagan worship by Arab tribes and was included in the religion in order to unite the various religious sensibilities of these pagan tribes and as serve as a culturally unifying factor.
Also, the fact of covering the body makes sense in a DESERT and Middle East and Christians would have dressed similarly at about the same time in scorching heat of the sun.
Lack of fresh water also means women would anyway have covered their hair in all cultures.
To dress the same way in moderate climates is ridiculous.
The Koran merely took local Arabian traditions and fused it with elements of Judaism and Christianity.....and then called it Islam.
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I thought you were an intelligent person but you sound like just another typical Moslem who tries to convince himself that his cult is the 'right' one by trying to disprove Christianity and all other groups instead of looking at the gaping holes and inconsistencies of his own sect.
You're Moslem because you're from a Middle-Eastern/Arabic background so of course you will say the 'truth' is there for all other to accept. But if you were born a Thai person in Thailand and part of that culture and mentality....you would be Buddhist.
If you were born as an Indian and part of that culture and sharing in that heritage.....you would be Hindu.
Wrong, for most of my adult life I did not follow any religion and did not have much knowledge of any religion either. Just look at my post history and you will find since the time I registered on getbig until a few months ago I hardly ever posted on religious topics. This past summer I felt I should start seeking the truth and learn various religions, and from stepping back and doing self study I came to realize Islam made most sense to me. This would have been the case regardless of which religion my parents followed.
With regards to the 'fastest' growing cult aspect, it's because like most non-developed and backwards societies their populations breed like rabbits even though they're poor and won't be able to properly support their children. Which in turn leads to more poverty, less education and continues the cycle of being part of a backwards society.
Just look at the countries of these 'Moslem converts', they're mostly very poor.
Wrong again, note I pointed out that Islam has the most # of converts as confirmed by the Guiness Book of World Records, not the most # of reproductions.
Anyway about the inconsistencies of Islam:
Your cult offers SEX as reward in the afterlife with an ORGY of 50 'virgins' in a surrounding which looks suspiciously like the setting of an Oasis in Arabia.
What kind of demented mind offers such vices as 'rewards' in the afterlife yet frowns on even showing a small piece of flesh on Earth and shuns anything sexual?
Sex gives rise to a pleasure which God programmed in us, there's nothing evil or morally wrong about enjoying it in the afterlife. How is that an "inconsistency?" Just shows how weak your logic and reasoning is to discuss sex in the afterlife as an "inconsistency."
Once I started reading the rest of your post regarding meteorite I stopped reading and typing as I realized you're on a low level of intellect and not worth my time anymore.
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Wrong, for most of my adult life I did not follow any religion and did not have much knowledge of any religion either. Just look at my post history and you will find since the time I registered on getbig until a few months ago I hardly ever posted on religious topics. This past summer I felt I should start seeking the truth and learn various religions, and from stepping back and doing self study I came to realize Islam made most sense to me. This would have been the case regardless of which religion my parents followed.
Wrong again, note I pointed out that Islam has the most # of converts as confirmed by the Guiness Book of World Records, not the most # of reproductions.
Sex gives rise to a pleasure which God programmed in us, there's nothing evil or morally wrong about enjoying it in the afterlife. How is that an "inconsistency?" Just shows how weak your logic and reasoning is to discuss sex in the afterlife as an "inconsistency."
Once I started reading the rest of your post regarding meteorite I stopped reading and typing as I realized you're on a low level of intellect and not worth my time anymore.
You look of Middle Eastern/Arabic descent to me, so I was not wrong in my conclusions. Culturally you feel more comfortable with a religion coming from a people who are more similar to you or have more in common with you as you might be able to relate to them better.
The reason you didn't want to read further is that you know it's true.......the people before Mohammed were PAGAN and worshiped that rock, which is pitch black and well, a meteorite.
ALL the pagan tribes worshiped that stone, this is a historical fact and can be confirmed by historians. And everything else I said about the clothing is also accurate and experts could back me up on this too.
I'm not making anything up here, you're merely getting offended by historical facts. You accuse me of a 'low level of intellect' when I'm using the arguments of historians, anthropologists, archaeologists and even basic sociology?
I'm basing my arguments on history, science and experts in their fields........and you?
With regard to your argument of sex in the afterlife, it's not just sex but a completely depraved ORGY and those promised 'virgins' are essentially sex SLAVES created by this 'Allah' who is supposed to be good and merciful.
What about women? They get 50 guys to gang-bang them?
What kind of demented 'afterlife' is this.......?
Every other religion except maybe some PAGAN cults might not view this as twisted.
And about the 'converts', as I said earlier: poor people +poor county + violence + lack of education + little hope + coercion = 'converts'
This merely highlights the fact of poverty and lack of education in much of Northern Africa.