Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Agnostic007 on September 22, 2020, 07:16:31 PM
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https://www.t-nation.com/training/the-best-damn-workout-plan-for-natural-lifters
I'm 58. I am a weight lifter not a body builder. You can tell I work out but nothing spectacular. I've been doing a "bro split"for a while. a 4 day routine, back biceps, Legs, Chest Triceps, Shoulders Abs
I came across this workout recently and started it about a week ago. I added calves to the push days and traps and abs to the pull days. I plan on giving it a couple months to see if I get any results. But for you long time lifters, is there anything you would change? I doubt the article was written for people my age but does it matter? Is the frequency too much?
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https://www.t-nation.com/training/the-best-damn-workout-plan-for-natural-lifters
I'm 58. I am a weight lifter not a body builder. You can tell I work out but nothing spectacular. I've been doing a "bro split"for a while. a 4 day routine, back biceps, Legs, Chest Triceps, Shoulders Abs
I came across this workout recently and started it about a week ago. I added calves to the push days and traps and abs to the pull days. I plan on giving it a couple months to see if I get any results. But for you long time lifters, is there anything you would change? I doubt the article was written for people my age but does it matter? Is the frequency too much?
So many variables that affect how we respond, First I’d give it a good go for a few weeks & see how you get on / Feel.
Report Back then.
It all depends on how hard / intense / how long workouts are / body’s ability to recover
Your food intake / motivation etc etc.
Keep at it & if your feeling tired not recovering I’d add a extra rest day after the Leg day.
Good luck - keep us posted.
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https://www.t-nation.com/training/the-best-damn-workout-plan-for-natural-lifters
I'm 58. I am a weight lifter not a body builder. You can tell I work out but nothing spectacular. I've been doing a "bro split"for a while. a 4 day routine, back biceps, Legs, Chest Triceps, Shoulders Abs
I came across this workout recently and started it about a week ago. I added calves to the push days and traps and abs to the pull days. I plan on giving it a couple months to see if I get any results. But for you long time lifters, is there anything you would change? I doubt the article was written for people my age but does it matter? Is the frequency too much?
It's too much to train 6 days a week as a natty.
Train full-body 2-3 times a week doing 3-6 sets of 5-12 reps per muscle group. Get 20-36 reps total per exercise.
Change up the exercises every 6-8 weeks if you like.
Sample: All 3x8-12
Calf raise
Squat or leg press
Leg curl
Incline press
Row
Overhead press
Pullup or Lat pulldown
Bicep curl
Wrist curl
27 sets
Throw in some light ab work as a warmup if you like.
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That does seem like a lot of frequency, but the volume isn't too high. I did something similar to this many years ago and it was alright. The only thing i'm weary of are the rest/pause sets. I think they are helpful for a few weeks at a time, but i've never benefited from them over a long period of time.
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Thanks for the input. I'll give it a try for 6 weeks or so and if it has a negative impact I'll drop it. I like the brevity of the workouts. I do find it pushes me to go heavier since I know I am not doing 4 sets. We'll see. If nothing glaring is jumping out at you then it can't hurt to try it. 1st week was really trying to adjust and learn the 3 types of lifting. I won't really count that. I did notice I was sore more than usual from the sessions.
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Iron nat is dead on when he wrote a whole body routine done three times a week is an optimal way to train for a natural.
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Iron nat is dead on when he wrote a whole body routine done three times a week is an optimal way to train for a natural.
Not necessarily it depends on recovery ability
2x a week maybe enough
or 2 upper body 1 lower body then reverse next week
And why does it have to fit in a 7 day week.
There no one size fits all routine - Though clearly some sort of guidelines are required.
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Actually I said workout 2-3 times per week full body for natties. The day off between workouts allows recovery.
Hitting a muscle group once every 7 days is not enough for nattys. For drug users it works because the drugs put them in a constant state of anabolism.
With nattys, after 72 hours the muscles start to atrophy. You just spin your wheels. You're wasting your time.
A sharp distinction must be made between natural training and drug assisted training. They are different animals.
Just about all the routines promoted in the past 60 years are drug routines.
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Actually I said workout 2-3 times per week full body for natties. The day off between workouts allows recovery.
Hitting a muscle group once every 7 days is not enough for nattys. For drug users it works because the drugs put them in a constant state of anabolism.
With nattys, after 72 hours the muscles start to atrophy. You just spin your wheels. You're wasting your time.
A sharp distinction must be made between natural training and drug assisted training. They are different animals.
Just about all the routines promoted in the past 60 years are drug routines.
Hmmm I trained “Natural” for quite a few years when I started & won 2 British powerlifting
Championships - I’m quite well aware of varying recovery rates & they vary from person to
Person & The load placed upon each individuals body.
Try again.
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Hmmm I trained “Natural” for quite a few years when I started & won 2 British powerlifting
Championships - I’m quite well aware of varying recovery rates & they vary from person to
Person & The load placed upon each individuals body.
Try again.
I'll see if I can find a bro-science article for backup. ;)
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I'll see if I can find a bro-science article for backup. ;)
What are you having problems with. ?? 🙄
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Actually I said workout 2-3 times per week full body for natties. The day off between workouts allows recovery.
Hitting a muscle group once every 7 days is not enough for nattys. For drug users it works because the drugs put them in a constant state of anabolism.
With nattys, after 72 hours the muscles start to atrophy. You just spin your wheels. You're wasting your time.
A sharp distinction must be made between natural training and drug assisted training. They are different animals.
Just about all the routines promoted in the past 60 years are drug routines.
I think there is some truth to that. I know when i was natural and training for Olympic lifting we trained the big lifts three days a week and did accessory work the other two days. We only trained 5 days a week. Same thing in high school and college football, we trained on a push/pull rotation every 2-3 days. We exercised 5 days a week on a very weird schedule; I don't remember our exact split from college, but i remember doing squats and power cleans 3 days a week, low volume. Very simple workouts utilizing compound movements and low volume. I made some insane gains in my early 20's doing very simple workouts, but i was eating a lot too.
I think doing full body workouts is too difficult if you train heavy, there is no way i could train legs/back/chest/shoulders all in one workout unless it was very low volume. But i think you are suggesting minimal amount out sets? Like in Olympic lifting we did front squats and hang cleans every other day, but it was like 60-70% of ME and only 5-6 sets of 3 reps for speed. This wouldn't make you sore but it built strength through repetition, we'd slowly add weight and once a month would do doubles in to 80-90% ME range, then back down. I remember i hadn't done a heavy front squat in a few months and one day we went for ME doubles, i did a smooth double with 110% of my previous 1RM very easily. My legs were very strong but they didn't grow much. I went from doing singles with 275 to doing triples with 330 in a few months, it was pretty incredible.
The only thing i disagree with is that after 72 hours the muscles start to atrophy. Where did you get that information? From what i remember in kinesiology classes it takes weeks, unless you are starving yourself.
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What are you having problems with. ?? 🙄
Just joking around. I meant I would find a bro-science article to back up my assertions.
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I think there is some truth to that. I know when i was natural and training for Olympic lifting we trained the big lifts three days a week and did accessory work the other two days. We only trained 5 days a week. Same thing in high school and college football, we trained on a push/pull rotation every 2-3 days. We exercised 5 days a week on a very weird schedule; I don't remember our exact split from college, but i remember doing squats and power cleans 3 days a week, low volume. Very simple workouts utilizing compound movements and low volume. I made some insane gains in my early 20's doing very simple workouts, but i was eating a lot too.
I think doing full body workouts is too difficult if you train heavy, there is no way i could train legs/back/chest/shoulders all in one workout unless it was very low volume. But i think you are suggesting minimal amount out sets? Like in Olympic lifting we did front squats and hang cleans every other day, but it was like 60-70% of ME and only 5-6 sets of 3 reps for speed. This wouldn't make you sore but it built strength through repetition, we'd slowly add weight and once a month would do doubles in to 80-90% ME range, then back down. I remember i hadn't done a heavy front squat in a few months and one day we went for ME doubles, i did a smooth double with 110% of my previous 1RM very easily. My legs were very strong but they didn't grow much. I went from doing singles with 275 to doing triples with 330 in a few months, it was pretty incredible.
The only thing i disagree with is that after 72 hours the muscles start to atrophy. Where did you get that information? From what i remember in kinesiology classes it takes weeks, unless you are starving yourself.
"When a particular muscle or group of muscles is not used for a period of time, patients suffer from dis-use atrophy. There are studies that indicate there can be biochemistry changes in the muscle cell(s) indicative of an atrophy response within 72 hours of dis-use. These changes are miniscule but it is easy to extrapolate what occurs in the muscle cells of someone that is not able to move and use or unwilling to move and use a particular body part for several weeks/months. The effects of disuse atrophy can be devastating to someone’s functional capabilities.".
https://ace-pt.org/ace-physical-therapy-and-sports-medicine-institute-combating-muscle-atrophy-with-physical-therapy/
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https://www.livestrong.com/article/347887-leg-muscle-atrophy/
"Muscle atrophy in the legs is a loss of muscle tissue due to disuse, disease or injury. A decrease in physical activity can lead to muscle loss in as little as 72 hours. "
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"When a particular muscle or group of muscles is not used for a period of time, patients suffer from dis-use atrophy. There are studies that indicate there can be biochemistry changes in the muscle cell(s) indicative of an atrophy response within 72 hours of dis-use. These changes are miniscule but it is easy to extrapolate what occurs in the muscle cells of someone that is not able to move and use or unwilling to move and use a particular body part for several weeks/months. The effects of disuse atrophy can be devastating to someone’s functional capabilities.". https://ace-pt.org/ace-physical-therapy-and-sports-medicine-institute-combating-muscle-atrophy-with-physical-therapy/
Interesting, but i'd imagine it happens on a very small scale at 72 hours. Good information though. It's like when i had knee surgery and my leg was around 75% the size of my good leg after 3-4 weeks. Took a long time to where it looked the same. I can still tell a difference 12 years later.
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This is an interesting thread/topic and just wanted to say as much to those that participated in it!
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when I was on lockdown I was curious as to muscle loss. The articles I came across seemed to say it was dependent. What are your genetics. the how much of the muscle gain was from long term weight training? It seemed to longer you had weight trained the slower the muscle loss. I didn't lift for 90 days and the loss was there, but it wasn't substantial and within 3 weeks I was back to the norm.
So I am roughly 3 weeks into this workout and I am happy so far. This is personal but for me, after being a gym rat for 40 years off and on, not really going to extremes, this is good for ME. Maybe some of you can relate. I tend to migrate to what I'm comfortable with. but I have always done legs, quads, hamstrings and calves.. but I stuck with probably the same weights for several years. Weight that I could do 4 sets of 10 with. This program forces me to up the weight, since I am doing 2 warm ups and 1 set to 6 but using 1 of 3 techniques. I have noticed in the last 3 weeks my weights are going up. and it is opening me up to things like Straight arm pull downs for back that I haven't done. so far I am happy with it, but I'm cynical. We'll see how it goes
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It's all about what works for you. It took me a long time to figure that out and stop chasing the "workout of the week". As long as you are progressing and not getting injured, you can't ask for much more after so many years of working out.
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when I was on lockdown I was curious as to muscle loss. The articles I came across seemed to say it was dependent. What are your genetics. the how much of the muscle gain was from long term weight training? It seemed to longer you had weight trained the slower the muscle loss. I didn't lift for 90 days and the loss was there, but it wasn't substantial and within 3 weeks I was back to the norm.
So I am roughly 3 weeks into this workout and I am happy so far. This is personal but for me, after being a gym rat for 40 years off and on, not really going to extremes, this is good for ME. Maybe some of you can relate. I tend to migrate to what I'm comfortable with. but I have always done legs, quads, hamstrings and calves.. but I stuck with probably the same weights for several years. Weight that I could do 4 sets of 10 with. This program forces me to up the weight, since I am doing 2 warm ups and 1 set to 6 but using 1 of 3 techniques. I have noticed in the last 3 weeks my weights are going up. and it is opening me up to things like Straight arm pull downs for back that I haven't done. so far I am happy with it, but I'm cynical. We'll see how it goes
Great - you’re happy doing the workouts & seeing some progress that’s 2 Very Big Positives
Stick with it & give it a fair crack I’d say at least 3-5mnths
Good luck & enjoy your workouts
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Everyone should have a training journal so they can keep track of what works for them. Try every different type of training as a beginner/intermediate and figure out what works for you.
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Everyone should have a training journal so they can keep track of what works for them. Try every different type of training as a beginner/intermediate and figure out what works for you.
Hmmm maybe 🤔
Maybe everyone should have a Brain as that would also help Enormously 😂🤣😂🤣😂
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HIT practitioners especially need to keep a journal since they only train every other week and they forget what they did the previous time.
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HIT practitioners especially need to keep a journal since they only train every other week and they forget what they did the previous time.
:D
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I didn't take pictures or measurements pre program so take this with a grain of salt. I've noticed a difference and my friends and family have noticed a difference in the few months I have tried this.
I am on testosterone pellets every 4 months but that has been the case for 4 years. So for me, and I stress ME... this has shown improvement I didn't get prior. And the fact I am retired and can work out 7 days a week if I want to, I love the idea of hitting the gym 6 days a week, focusing on four (5 max) exercises with 3 max sets and I'm done. There is a second protocol they now have available if your reach the 6 m0nth point.
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couple things I add that they don't require. Calves..on push days and trap shrug variations on pull days
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Just read two good books for natties.
When Huge Is Not Enough II by Bill Davis
The End: Natty Maximization Get The Gains And Leave by nattyornot.com
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The differences between natural and enhanced training.
https://thibarmy.com/the-differences-between-natural-and-enhanced-training/
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For me best workout for naturals is a flat belly fix. Here is the best product that can help you out to lose weight, be healthy, and feeling good evertime.
OK, what's the product?
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As a natural my best results were training just 2 x per week. I may have crap recovery but when I tried this routine I was just worn out, even though the workouts were short.
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As a natural my best results were training just 2 x per week. I may have crap recovery but when I tried this routine I was just worn out, even though the workouts were short.
Some train even less than that.
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Some train even less than that.
I'm a few months in at least and FOR ME I like it. 1. it's quick. 2. It has added muscle. 3. I don't have to think. I look at the app and do what it says.. basically 4 exercises, I can add Traps and calves and it's no big deal.
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I'm a few months in at least and FOR ME I like it. 1. it's quick. 2. It has added muscle. 3. I don't have to think. I look at the app and do what it says.. basically 4 exercises, I can add Traps and calves and it's no big deal.
Whatever works.
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Not saying everyone should train like this but for the longest time I generally train three days a week. I use the split of back and chest on say Monday. Wednesday is legs. Friday is delt and arms. Weekends are off. Some argue a body part should be trained more than once a week but there is so much overlap. Such as bicep and tricep gets hit hard on back and chest day. No way to avoid it with the pulling and pushing. Chest gets hit again on friday with dips and close grips for tricep. Back gets hit again with such things as squats and clean for military presses. Legs get a direct day and get hit again on back day with deadlifts or cleans. In reality body parts are getting hit twice a week.
On the four days off can be rest or cardio.
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Not saying everyone should train like this but for the longest time I generally train three days a week. I use the split of back and chest on say Monday. Wednesday is legs. Friday is delt and arms. Weekends are off. Some argue a body part should be trained more than once a week but there is so much overlap. Such as bicep and tricep gets hit hard on back and chest day. No way to avoid it with the pulling and pushing. Chest gets hit again on friday with dips and close grips for tricep. Back gets hit again with such things as squats and clean for military presses. Legs get a direct day and get hit again on back day with deadlifts or cleans. In reality body parts are getting hit twice a week.
On the four days off can be rest or cardio.
A day off between workouts works well.
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Not saying everyone should train like this but for the longest time I generally train three days a week. I use the split of back and chest on say Monday. Wednesday is legs. Friday is delt and arms. Weekends are off. Some argue a body part should be trained more than once a week but there is so much overlap. Such as bicep and tricep gets hit hard on back and chest day. No way to avoid it with the pulling and pushing. Chest gets hit again on friday with dips and close grips for tricep. Back gets hit again with such things as squats and clean for military presses. Legs get a direct day and get hit again on back day with deadlifts or cleans. In reality body parts are getting hit twice a week.
On the four days off can be rest or cardio.
I agree with this, there is a lot of overlap. I like the Dorian routine, Chest, Bis .... Back.... Shoulders and Tris ..... and Legs because it kind of allows for overlap if you choose compound moves, I do it over 10 days not 7 and it works ok for me
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Not saying everyone should train like this but for the longest time I generally train three days a week. I use the split of back and chest on say Monday. Wednesday is legs. Friday is delt and arms. Weekends are off. Some argue a body part should be trained more than once a week but there is so much overlap. Such as bicep and tricep gets hit hard on back and chest day. No way to avoid it with the pulling and pushing. Chest gets hit again on friday with dips and close grips for tricep. Back gets hit again with such things as squats and clean for military presses. Legs get a direct day and get hit again on back day with deadlifts or cleans. In reality body parts are getting hit twice a week.
On the four days off can be rest or cardio.
I may try this. I do full body's but sometimes I reach the point where its too taxing on my body and hard to increase the weights for each exercise.
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Thanks for sharing a link, I'll try it.
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Day 1 chest back
Day 2 legs
Day 3 off
Day 4 delts arms
Day 5 off
Day 6 repeat cycle
Hit the muscle once every 5 days. Do high volume with reasonable intensity is best for a true nattie.