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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: The Ugly on October 20, 2015, 10:16:26 PM
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Or is He omniscient?
Can't be both, as they're mutually exclusive.
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God's free will is limited to deeds of love, righteousness, mercy, etc.
God is not free to do evil.
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Whoa!
It would suck to be a God and still somebody tells you what you can and cannot do.
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Or is He omniscient?
Can't be both, as they're mutually exclusive.
He or she is omniscient. Many people cannot imagine God doing anything evil, including me. This depends on one's concept of God, however. Some believe God punishes sinners while other folks see God as hopeful, loving and forgiving.
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God's free will is limited to deeds of love, righteousness, mercy, etc.
God is not free to do evil.
So not omniscient, then?
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He or she is omniscient. Many people cannot imagine God doing anything evil, including me. This depends on one's concept of God, however. Some believe God punishes sinners while other folks see God as hopeful, loving and forgiving.
Really? Interested to hear your definition of evil, then, unless you're just unfamiliar with the book. Great Flood, for instance, no evil there? All those innocent children and infants; the thousands, perhaps, in utero ...
Reminds me, most Pro-Lifers worship the biggest abortionist in history. Lost irony, I imagine. Anyway, examples of evil are endless, Google it.
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God's free will is limited to deeds of love, righteousness, mercy, etc.
God is not free to do evil.
So yours is a limited God? What good is that?
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He or she is omniscient. Many people cannot imagine God doing anything evil, including me. This depends on one's concept of God, however. Some believe God punishes sinners while other folks see God as hopeful, loving and forgiving.
God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)
GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.
GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.
GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.
GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).
GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."
EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.
EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten close to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die
EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.
LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."
LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."
LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.
LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)
NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.
NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.
NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.
NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.
NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.
NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.
NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.
NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.
NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."
NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."
NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.
NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.
NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)
NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.
DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.
DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.
DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and show "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.
DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."
DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."
DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.
DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."
JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.
JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho--men, women, and children--with the edge of the sword.
JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.
JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.
JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.
JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.
JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.
JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.
JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.
JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.
JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.
JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."
JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)
JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."
JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."
JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.
JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.
JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.
JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.
JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.
JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.
JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.
JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.
JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.
JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.
JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.
JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.
JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."
JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.
JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.
JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.
JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.
JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.
JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.
JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.
JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.
JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.
1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.
1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.
1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)
1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.
1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.
1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."
1SA 27:8-11 "David left neither man nor woman alive ....". (Note: This implies that children and infants were included in the slaughter.)
2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."
2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.
2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.
2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.
1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.
1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.
1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.
1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.
I would say you have a pretty high tolerance of evil
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Yeah, just seemed unnecessary. Uninformed comment is all.
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God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)
GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.
GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.
GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.
GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).
GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."
EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.
EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten close to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die
EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.
LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."
LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."
LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.
LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)
NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.
NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.
NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.
NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.
NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.
NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.
NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.
NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.
NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."
NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."
NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.
NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.
NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)
NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.
DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.
DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.
DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and show "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.
DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."
DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."
DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.
DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."
JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.
JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho--men, women, and children--with the edge of the sword.
JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.
JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.
JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.
JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.
JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.
JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.
JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.
JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.
JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.
JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."
JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)
JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."
JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."
JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.
JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.
JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.
JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.
JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.
JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.
JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.
JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.
JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.
JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.
JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.
JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.
JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."
JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.
JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.
JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.
JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.
JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.
JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.
JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.
JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.
JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.
1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.
1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.
1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)
1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.
1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.
1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."
1SA 27:8-11 "David left neither man nor woman alive ....". (Note: This implies that children and infants were included in the slaughter.)
2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."
2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.
2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.
2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.
1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.
1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.
1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.
1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.
I would say you have a pretty high tolerance of evil
Here you go folks....this will save you time:
http://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html (http://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html)
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What does Paul temporarily blinding someone have to do with Gods atrocities? The original list contains some stretches...
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He or she is omniscient.
Is he now? Is that why he laments that the Israelites "have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not" in (Hosea 8:4)? Because he's omniscient?
Others have already addressed the "cannot imagine God doing anything evil" bit.
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Point being, ya can't freely choose if you already know the outcome. Another contradiction the authors didn't think through.
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Really? Interested to hear your definition of evil, then, unless you're just unfamiliar with the book. Great Flood, for instance, no evil there? All those innocent children and infants; the thousands, perhaps, in utero ...
Reminds me, most Pro-Lifers worship the biggest abortionist in history. Lost irony, I imagine. Anyway, examples of evil are endless, Google it.
Just so you're clear on this matter, I believe the bible is nothing more than folklore. If any of it is based on facts, those facts were long ago convoluted to suit the whims and ulterior motives of various religions.
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Part of the problem many people have when trying to understand the Bible is, number one, they don't believe the Bible.
Number two: they only do superficial research.
The first problem, that a lack of belief necessarily causes a lack of understanding, should be evident to everyone who has read the Bible (even those who dont believe). Thats because the Bible says this plainly:
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:14
The second problem, a lack of deep study, is even an issue with believers. Because the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, much of the style, language, syntax, etc from the original text does not translate perfectly. You all are well aware of the fact that there are some words, and some ways of expressing certain ideas, that are exclusive to particular cultures, languages, etc; and do not have perfect parallels in other languages and cultures. This is why most Pastors and nearly all Bible scholars are required to study basic Hebrew and Greek, and are trained n the field of 'exegesis' as well.
MOS and I will do our best to provide you all with responses to your questions, but these are some of the issues that must be kept in mind.
Is he now? Is that why he laments that the Israelites "have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not" in (Hosea 8:4)? Because he's omniscient?
Others have already addressed the "cannot imagine God doing anything evil" bit.
That was a good translation of Hosea 8:4 back in 1600 when the King James Bible was written, however it is not a good translation any longer because our understanding of the phrase "I knew it not" is different than it was then.
Here is how modern translators write that verse:
They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval. Hosea 8:4 NIV
Regards,
-Taylor
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Part of the problem many people have when trying to understand the Bible is, number one, they don't believe the Bible.
Number two: they only do superficial research.
The first problem, that a lack of belief necessarily causes a lack of understanding, should be evident to everyone who has read the Bible (even those who dont believe). Thats because the Bible says this plainly:
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:14
The second problem, a lack of deep study, is even an issue with believers. Because the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, much of the style, language, syntax, etc from the original text does not translate perfectly. You all are well aware of the fact that there are some words, and some ways of expressing certain ideas, that are exclusive to particular cultures, languages, etc; and do not have perfect parallels in other languages and cultures. This is why most Pastors and nearly all Bible scholars are required to study basic Hebrew and Greek, and are trained n the field of 'exegesis' as well.
MOS and I will do our best to provide you all with responses to your questions, but these are some of the issues that must be kept in mind.
That was a good translation of Hosea 8:4 back in 1600 when the King James Bible was written, however it is not a good translation any longer because our understanding of the phrase "I knew it not" is different than it was then.
Here is how modern translators write that verse:
They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval. Hosea 8:4 NIV
Regards,
-Taylor
Tbombz,
I am really happy for you that you've found God. It seems to have made you a better person. That being said, what I believe or don't is a personal matter.
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Tbombz,
I am really happy for you that you've found God. It seems to have made you a better person. That being said, what I believe or don't is a personal matter.
Hey Prime,
Thanks for the kind words.
I agree with you: personal beliefs are indeed personal.
Not sure why you took the time to make that comment, though.
Regards,
-Taylor
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Just so you're clear on this matter, I believe the bible is nothing more than folklore. If any of it is based on facts, those facts were long ago convoluted to suit the whims and ulterior motives of various religions.
Of course, totally agree. But your "cannot imagine" malarkey tells me you've never read the book; in which case, how did you decide?
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Of course, totally agree. But your "cannot imagine" malarkey tells me you've never read the book; in which case, how did you decide?
How I decided to believe as I do is a good question. You are quite right, I have not read the bible. -Guess I have no business commenting on it.
If I were to choose one religion to follow, I'd pick Religious Science. http://religiousscience.us. As my late wife, a devout Catholic, defined it, it is more a philosophy than a religion in any traditional sense. It's been many years since I have been an active participant. Perhaps it is time for me to get involved again.
In no way do I claim to have "found the way" much less the only way. People should believe as they choose and in what works for them in their lives, assuming their beliefs wish no harm to others who believe differently.
I have zero tolerance when it comes to other people/religions endeavoring to convert people to their beliefs, particularly when I'm the one to whom they are preaching.
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Part of the problem many people have when trying to understand the Bible is, number one, they don't believe the Bible.
Number two: they only do superficial research.
The first problem, that a lack of belief necessarily causes a lack of understanding, should be evident to everyone who has read the Bible (even those who dont believe). Thats because the Bible says this plainly:
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:14
The second problem, a lack of deep study, is even an issue with believers. Because the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, much of the style, language, syntax, etc from the original text does not translate perfectly. You all are well aware of the fact that there are some words, and some ways of expressing certain ideas, that are exclusive to particular cultures, languages, etc; and do not have perfect parallels in other languages and cultures. This is why most Pastors and nearly all Bible scholars are required to study basic Hebrew and Greek, and are trained n the field of 'exegesis' as well.
MOS and I will do our best to provide you all with responses to your questions, but these are some of the issues that must be kept in mind.
That was a good translation of Hosea 8:4 back in 1600 when the King James Bible was written, however it is not a good translation any longer because our understanding of the phrase "I knew it not" is different than it was then.
Here is how modern translators write that verse:
They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval. Hosea 8:4 NIV
Regards,
-Taylor
Oh, goodness. So you can't really understand the Word until you accept the Word. Very Nancy Pelosi, don't ya think? And, again, you see no problem with this.
Honestly, He should've just given us half a brain or condemned critical thinkers before the bullshit charade. Think it's merely coincidence they put such a premium on FAITH? Belief without evidence, right? Because this is important?
Ridiculous to think an all-everything God would so cherish ignorance, but it makes perfect sense when you consider the actual authors.
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How I decided to believe as I do is a good question. You are quite right, I have not read the bible. -Guess I have no business commenting on it.
If I were to chose one religion to follow, I'd chose Religious Science. http://religiousscience.us. As my late wife, a devout Catholic, defined it, it is more a philosophy than a religion in any traditional sense. It's been many years since I have been an active participant. Perhaps it is time for me to get involved again.
In no way do I claim to have "found the way" much less the only way. People should believe as they choose and in what works for them in their lives, assuming their beliefs wish no harm to others who believe differently.
I have zero tolerance when it comes to other people/religions endeavoring to convert people to their beliefs, particularly when I'm the one to whom they are preaching.
Stick with "Science," drop "Religion," and enjoy yourself. Find meaning in the people you see, places you go, things you learn, and music you hear. All ya need, Pops.
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That was a good translation of Hosea 8:4 back in 1600 when the King James Bible was written, however it is not a good translation any longer because our understanding of the phrase "I knew it not" is different than it was then.
Amazing... the immutable, inspired word of God depends on translations and our understanding. Why couldn't God have phrased things unambiguously to begin with?
Here is how modern translators write that verse:
Oh well, if that's how they write it... Just one question: how do you know the modern translators aren't wrong?
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Amazing... the immutable, inspired word of God depends on translations and our understanding. Why couldn't God have phrased things unambiguously to begin with?
Oh well, if that's how they write it... Just one question: how do you know the modern translators aren't wrong?
Divine guidance, bro. He certainly wouldn't allow anyone to fumble His opus.
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Divine guidance, bro. He certainly wouldn't allow anyone to fumble His opus.
again.....
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There's a couple thoughts here I would like to address, but I think if you guys really want to understand the Bible, it would help to frsti understand that we are truly depraved creatures, victims of our own rebellion, separated from a holy God who will not force the disobedient to behave. Faith is central because thats how we reconnect with the invisible God. Without faith God does not exist, with faith He does exist (I am speaking in human terms). Faith is absolutely necessary because it gives us the proper attitude and perspective. There are also other legal matters... God cannot bless the guilty with understanding and etc unless their sins have been covered, through faith, by the cross of Jesus.
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I think if you guys really want to understand the Bible, it would help to frsti understand that we are truly depraved creatures, victims of our own rebellion, separated from a holy God who will not force the disobedient to behave.
Not all of us have the history you do.
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Yeah.. if your not a Christian and according to human standards you have lived a morally upright life.. then it could be difficult for you to understand how your depraved and deserving of hell.
But God's moral standard is quite different. If we have ever hated someone in our heart, then we are guilty of committing murder. If we have lusted, then we have committed adultery. Etc.
So, even though you may have lived a very upstanding life... your still guilty of some extremely heinous crimes. The worst of all not loving God.
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Yeah.. if your not a Christian and according to human standards you have lived a morally upright life.. then it could be difficult for you to understand how your depraved and deserving of hell.
But God's moral standard is quite different. If we have ever hated someone in our heart, then we are guilty of committing murder. If we have lusted, then we have committed adultery. Etc.
So, even though you may have lived a very upstanding life... your still guilty of some extremely heinous crimes. The worst of all not loving God.
This is so bothersome.
No one ASKED to be born - that's on Him. WE didn't eat that fucking fruit - on them/Him. He invented a faulty product - again, Him.
Think about it, T. You're born into this place without consenting. You do your best to behave, and you pull it off better than most. But maybe you're just not so convinced about the story they tell.
How, in good conscience, can you honestly say this is "deserving of hell"? Separated from God (for rejecting), fine, but ETERNAL TORTURE? Come on, fella. Nothing evil about nonbelief, and eternal punishment for a finite crime is totally unjust.
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Yeah.. if your not a Christian and according to human standards you have lived a morally upright life.. then it could be difficult for you to understand how your depraved and deserving of hell.
You're right. It's difficult to be convinced that every human being is inherently evil and worthy of eternal punishment and that the divine being that deems as unworthy, somehow also manages to love us enough to offer us salvation if we just choose to believe. Do you have any proof to offer that doesn't require me to believe first?
But God's moral standard is quite different.
That's his problem, not mine. I can't live by someone else's moral standards. I can - and only wish to live - by mine.
If we have ever hated someone in our heart, then we are guilty of committing murder.
And this passes for justices in the eyes of your God? That one, single statement makes a mockery of justice.
If we have lusted, then we have committed adultery. Etc.
Well, if nothing else, instilling that mentality into people does make them easy for the men of God - who conveniently also sell salvation - to control and profit from the masses.
(http://i.imgur.com/6Kzpdjl.jpg)
"Step right up folks... step right up and get Jesus's Elixir of Eternal Life"
So, even though you may have lived a very upstanding life... your still guilty of some extremely heinous crimes.
If a supernatural being demands my belief, worship and obedience but refuses to give me clear and convincing proof and then chooses to punish me when I don't believe, worship and obey it, then the fault isn't with me - it's with the supernatural being. Your God, if your description is accurate, is nothing short of a bully - on a cosmic scale, no doubt, but a bully nonetheless.
The worst of all not loving God.
I find it hard to love someone that is, in essence, threatening me. Or are you so twisted you think that "believe or else..." is an expression of love?
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Guys, at this point I don't have any reason to continue replying.
Send MOS or I a private message if you have any sincere questions about our faith and/or our God.
Regards,
-Taylor
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If this were a boxing match it would have been Tyson Vs Spinks
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Guys, at this point I don't have any reason to continue replying.
And yet, you invite those with sincere questions to PM you, suggesting that our questions are, somehow, less than sincere.
Send MOS or I a private message if you have any sincere questions about our faith and/or our God.
I have sincere questions. The problem is you aren't answering them. You can't even define what it is you believe in in a way that allows me to distinguish it from the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Yeah.. if your not a Christian and according to human standards you have lived a morally upright life.. then it could be difficult for you to understand how your depraved and deserving of hell.
But God's moral standard is quite different. If we have ever hated someone in our heart, then we are guilty of committing murder. If we have lusted, then we have committed adultery. Etc.
So, even though you may have lived a very upstanding life... your still guilty of some extremely heinous crimes. The worst of all not loving God.
Have you no lust for your wife? If you do, that's not generally considered adultery.
You are making some assumptions here. You could be right or you could be wrong. You really do not know.
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Have you no lust for your wife? If you do, that's not generally considered adultery.
You are making some assumptions here. You could be right or you could be wrong. You really do not know.
Let me understand, are you suggesting that lusting after one's spouse is committing adultery? Or am I not understanding?
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Man of Steel, if looking at a cake is not the same thing as eating a cake, why should having sexual thoughts about the sexy barista be the same as having sex with the sexy barista?
Let me guess... God's morality, which we cannot comprehend but must follow, that's why.
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Let me understand, are you suggesting that lusting after one's spouse is committing adultery? Or am I not understanding?
You're understood just fine. Tbombz posted that lust is adultery without qualifying whether or not having lust for one's spouse was okay. That is what begged my questioning him about this.
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Have you no lust for your wife? If you do, that's not generally considered adultery.
You are making some assumptions here. You could be right or you could be wrong. You really do not know.
What assumptions, he's just repeating exactly what the bible says? In which case, right/wrong about what? He didn't write the thing, he just believes it.
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Let me understand, are you suggesting that lusting after one's spouse is committing adultery? Or am I not understanding?
No, he's saying it ISN'T, but don't read his reply because it'll just confuse you further.
If you two are are bailing on the thread, can you at least address the OP's OQ before you split? How is it possible, logically, that the two aren't in direct conflict?
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You're understood just fine. Tbombz posted that lust is adultery without qualifying whether or not having lust for one's spouse was okay. That is what begged my questioning him about this.
I do understand thanks for the clarification.
To answer briefly, lusting after your spouse (or having a strong desire for sex with your spouse) is not adultery.
To be direct, I have a strong desire for sex with my wife right now ;) and though I'm think about it from time to time I'm not committing adultery in doing so.....she's my wife.
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Man of Steel, if looking at a cake is not the same thing as eating a cake, why should having sexual thoughts about the sexy barista be the same as having sex with the sexy barista?
Let me guess... God's morality, which we cannot comprehend but must follow, that's why.
Well, looking at a cake and eating a cake are not the same thing in God's eyes, but looking at a cake and desiring to eat that cake that isn't your cake he does consider the same as actually eating the cake.....sticking with the cake example. ;)
It's the same with anger towards someone in that God considers that murder committed in our hearts.
The underlying idea for believers is that we're supposed to take every thought captive and be lead through the Holy Spirit making every effort to become more Christ-like in action and thought.
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No, he's saying it ISN'T, but don't read his reply because it'll just confuse you further.
If you two are are bailing on the thread, can you at least address the OP's OQ before you split? How is it possible, logically, that the two aren't in direct conflict?
Well, I never really engaged in the thread. Just haven't had the opportunity to recently. There's been a few topics on board in recent weeks and I simply haven't had time to get involved.
What I'm not going to do is the same back and forth dialogue I've done on the same topics with the same folks repeatedly for years.
If those same folks truly want to discuss further they can PM me about it, but the reality is that the core of my answers probably won't be changing.
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Well, I never really engaged in the thread. Just haven't had the opportunity to recently. There's been a few topics on board in recent weeks and I simply haven't had time to get involved.
What I'm not going to do is the same back and forth dialogue I've done on the same topics with the same folks repeatedly for years.
If those same folks truly want to discuss further they can PM me about it, but the reality is that the core of my answers probably won't be changing.
Which is very common among religious people in general. Even when their answers clearly contradict themselves and are problematic, they will stick with their belief regardless. Not pointing the finger at you specifically but in general. You could literally stack up books around a Christian with information and evidence that would show the miracle claims in the bible were fiction, completely wall them in with the stacks of scientific, historical and archeological evidence, and they would say "What evidence?" While Christians laugh at the Mormons and the Scientologist for their silly belief system, the Christians are just as silly in theirs, yet of course, it all makes sense to them, in my opinion
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Which is very common among religious people in general. Even when their answers clearly contradict themselves and are problematic, they will stick with their belief regardless. Not pointing the finger at you specifically but in general. You could literally stack up books around a Christian with information and evidence that would show the miracle claims in the bible were fiction, completely wall them in with the stacks of scientific, historical and archeological evidence, and they would say "What evidence?" While Christians laugh at the Mormons and the Scientologist for their silly belief system, the Christians are just as silly in theirs, yet of course, it all makes sense to them, in my opinion
Yeah, for almost every biblical view I hold to I most likely own a book (or two or three) that affirm it. I can also find (and own) a book (or two or three) that call the claim bogus. If you've ever worked with sales folks they're a prime example of this. Hold up two commission reports for their work for a given month.....whichever one has the higher commission amount is the correct report and they'll only seek out sources of information that will confirm that.
It's the ole "my scholar can beat up your scholar" stuff. People love to study the scholarly material they already know aligns with their opinions, but very rarely do they study the material that contradicts their beliefs.....that's often of no interest. That's why the unbelieving public flocks to Dr. Bart Ehrman's books, but ignore Dr. Dan Wallace's or Dr. James White's books that contradict Ehrman.
They leave the understanding of the contradictory material to brief google searches of websites ("Ralph's Atheism Website") that have lists of summarized contradictions and brief responses that are copied and pasted all over....I call these "surface objections" because the understanding by the nonbeliever is typically surface only. Yet the same folks deep dive head first into the material that they love and that aligns with their presuppositions and worldviews.
But of course, almost everyone that stands opposed to the bible has read it "cover to cover multiple times". ::)
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Or is He omniscient?
Can't be both, as they're mutually exclusive.
I wouldn’t say God has “free will” per se. That would imply a forced categorization that aligns with lesser beings or that his will has been granted to him or could be extracted from him. God is uncategorized and simply has will…it’s is unique, non-contingent and of itself. It’s his divine nature (of God or being God) that contains his quality of righteousness. He self-restricts engaging in certain activities that violate aspects of his divine nature (ex: engaging in evil).
Now, God does have some limitations based upon his divine nature? Sure. God can’t be anything other than himself….he can’t not be divine in nature. God can’t not exist. God can’t create another being that is equal to or greater than himself. God is incapable of not knowing all things past, present and future. God also can’t create beings who are given free will and that will only choose him.
God’s omniscience is total and complete knowledge subset by foreknowledge which is knowledge of all things to come.
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I wouldn’t say God has “free will” per se. That would imply a forced categorization that aligns with lesser beings or that his will has been granted to him or could be extracted from him. God is uncategorized and simply has will…it’s is unique, non-contingent and of itself. It’s his divine nature (of God or being God) that contains his quality of righteousness. He self-restricts engaging in certain activities that violate aspects of his divine nature (ex: engaging in evil).
Now, God does have some limitations based upon his divine nature? Sure. God can’t be anything other than himself….he can’t not be divine in nature. God can’t not exist. God can’t create another being that is equal to or greater than himself. God is incapable of not knowing all things past, present and future. God also can’t create beings who are given free will and that will only choose him.
God’s omniscience is total and complete knowledge subset by foreknowledge which is knowledge of all things to come.
define "divine in nature" for me
Your laundry list of things god can and cant do is entertaining to say the least
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define "divine in nature" for me
Your laundry list of things god can and cant do is entertaining to say the least
As is stated above "of God or being God".
Glad you are entertained.
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I do understand thanks for the clarification.
To answer briefly, lusting after your spouse (or having a strong desire for sex with your spouse) is not adultery.
To be direct, I have a strong desire for sex with my wife right now ;) and though I'm think about it from time to time I'm not committing adultery in doing so.....she's my wife.
Perhaps Tbombz has read the bible so many times now that he's speaking in riddles much in the way the bible is written. I wish him the best, but I also wish he'd give up preaching to us folks. It is often laughable and annoying at the same time.
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Perhaps Tbombz has read the bible so many times now that he's speaking in riddles much in the way the bible is written. I wish him the best, but I also wish he'd give up preaching to us folks. It is often laughable and annoying at the same time.
I would guess he just neglected to qualify that piece because he assumed it was a given.....to be honest I wouldn't have qualified it either.
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As is stated above "of God or being God".
Glad you are entertained.
"It’s his divine nature (of God or being God) that contains his quality of righteousness."
Can you explain this sentence to me? What do you mean?
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I would guess he just neglected to qualify that piece because he assumed it was a given.....to be honest I wouldn't have qualified it either.
Nor would I as it is impossible to commit adultery with your own wife... so lusting after her would not be adultery as well. However, Jesus set the bar so high in his rant that he assures humans will perish in hell ...unless........ they believe in him and give their life to the god that created them. Pretty swell set up
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Well, looking at a cake and eating a cake are not the same thing in God's eyes, but looking at a cake and desiring to eat that cake that isn't your cake he does consider the same as actually eating the cake.....sticking with the cake example. ;)
So, to your God, looking at a cake through a bakery store front and imaging eating said cake without, yet, having purchased it. And having imagined yourself eating the cake that is on display, you are guilty as if you had actually eaten the cake without having paid for it and must be punished.
How is this moral or rational?
It's the same with anger towards someone in that God considers that murder committed in our hearts.
Murder isn't committed in our hearts. Murder is committed when one person comes up with a plan to kill another and actually goes through with it. To equate murder and anger is insane. And if your God considers being angry at someone to be the moral equivalent of murdering someone, then the problem rests squarely on your God's faulty reasoning and his wayward moral compass.
The underlying idea for believers is that we're supposed to take every thought captive and be lead through the Holy Spirit making every effort to become more Christ-like in action and thought.
The underlying idea is to bind believers by chains of their own making, in exchange for eternal freedom after a life wasted rotting in the prison of their mind.
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So, to your God, looking at a cake through a bakery store front and imaging eating said cake without, yet, having purchased it. And having imagined yourself eating the cake that is on display, you are guilty as if you had actually eaten the cake without having paid for it and must be punished.
How is this moral or rational?
Murder isn't committed in our hearts. Murder is committed when one person comes up with a plan to kill another and actually goes through with it. To equate murder and anger is insane. And if your God considers being angry at someone to be the moral equivalent of murdering someone, then the problem rests squarely on your God's faulty reasoning and his wayward moral compass.
The underlying idea is to bind believers by chains of their own making, in exchange for eternal freedom after a life wasted rotting in the prison of their mind.
That is correct.
Not going down the morality and rationality rabbit hole again....we've done that.
Shows the depth of God's righteousness in that equates strong desire for sex with one you aren't married to as adultery and a strong sense of anger towards someone as murder. Yes, he is that holy. You find it insane. And?
Sounds great.
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Not going down the morality and rationality rabbit hole again....we've done that.
In other words: "I cannot support and defend the system of morals that I claim to live by."
Shows the depth of God's righteousness in that equates strong desire for sex with one you aren't married to as adultery and a strong sense of anger towards someone as murder. Yes, he is that holy. You find it insane. And?
No - to equate "anger" to "murder" isn't to be deeply righteous, or an indication of holiness; it's an indication of someone who was a warped sense of morality. And to claim that a thought is the same as an action is an indication of someone that cannot dinstinguish between thoughts and actions.
It's not that I find it insane - it's that it is insane to call these beliefs moral or rational.
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In other words: "I cannot support and defend the system of morals that I claim to live by."
No - to equate "anger" to "murder" isn't to be deeply righteous, or an indication of holiness; it's an indication of someone who was a warped sense of morality. And to claim that a thought is the same as an action is an indication of someone that cannot dinstinguish between thoughts and actions.
It's not that I find it insane - it's that it is insane to call these beliefs moral or rational.
Never could reconcile this back when I believed, eventually stopped trying. Even as a child, I knew the whole idea of 'thought sin' was completely unfair, as it's impossible to always control what you think.
You can't will away "impure" thoughts anymore than you can control the details of a dream. And the more I heard (learned adult) churchers try to explain or rationalize this particular edict, it just made me think they were silly for not questioning it themselves.
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In other words: "I cannot support and defend the system of morals that I claim to live by."
No - to equate "anger" to "murder" isn't to be deeply righteous, or an indication of holiness; it's an indication of someone who was a warped sense of morality. And to claim that a thought is the same as an action is an indication of someone that cannot dinstinguish between thoughts and actions.
It's not that I find it insane - it's that it is insane to call these beliefs moral or rational.
No we've had repeat discussions about it. Insulting me is useless.
Well that's your opinion and if that works for you then great. Certainly doesn't make you right...just the opinion of one man. I'm fine with it.
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No we've had repeat discussions about it. Insulting me is useless.
Well that's your opinion and if that works for you then great. Certainly doesn't make you right...just the opinion of one man. I'm fine with it.
First of all, where did I insult you?
With that out of the way: yes, this is all my opinion and yes, it's possible that I am wrong. But just because it's possible that I am wrong doesn't mean I actually am. So I am curious: can you point out any logical flaws or errors in my arguments? Can you attack the conclusions that I draw without relying on things you can't prove without resorting to "if you first believe X"?
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First of all, where did I insult you?
With that out of the way: yes, this is all my opinion and yes, it's possible that I am wrong. But just because it's possible that I am wrong doesn't mean I actually am. So I am curious: can you point out any logical flaws or errors in my arguments? Can you attack the conclusions that I draw without relying on things you can't prove without resorting to "if you first believe X"?
Directed at me, this is an insult:
In other words: "I cannot support and defend the system of morals that I claim to live by."
You know I can defend my faith. This is just something to say because you're the type of person in which there must be a reply to everything.
Other than ad hominem attacks (that aren't really ad hominem attacks **wink**) I don't see any glaring logical fallacies. I'm also not scrutinizing all that closely because I've already gone down most of these paths with you (in some form or fashion) in depth. Errors in arguments....when you contradict and/or invent things God would/should do because you say he should. Moving the goalposts on your criteria for definitions so all answers are permanently insufficient....it's your "word game" as I call it....it's a great tactic by the way. Conveniently not understanding examples or analogies as they pertain to God when clearly you do. Are they all fallacies? No. Are some tactics borderline or definite red herrings because some are meant as distraction? Yes. Have you done all of that within this thread? No, but again I'm not scrutinizing your posts all that closely and talked to you for years now.....I know what's up.
We've had lengthy discussions about all sorts of things and you reject almost everything I say. That's fine and you're free to do so. Why should I continue lengthy discussion? I've done the tit for tat, point for point, quote every line, respond to almost every word or phrase approach repeatedly with you. Back in May or June we did that over a period of almost 2 weeks....we've done it before that.....and before that.....I'm all God, you're no God...we know this. It's fine if you want to continue posting and discussing, but don't expect that same "level of service" from me. And because I don't don't insult me by saying I can't....you know I can. This is probably the longest reply I'll make. If you dissect and parse it so be it.....I won't do the same.
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Directed at me, this is an insult:
In other words: "I cannot support and defend the system of morals that I claim to live by."
You know I can defend my faith. This is just something to say because you're the type of person in which there must be a reply to everything.
It's not meant as an insult. From my perspective, you cannot. Your defense boils down to: "believe what I believe first and then I can prove to you that what I say is true and defend my beliefs." Prove me wrong.
Other than ad hominem attacks (that aren't really ad hominem attacks **wink**) I don't see any glaring logical fallacies. I'm also not scrutinizing all that closely because I've already gone down most of these paths with you (in some form or fashion) in depth. Errors in arguments....when you contradict and/or invent things God would/should do because you say he should. Moving the goalposts on your criteria for definitions so all answers are permanently insufficient....it's your "word game" as I call it....it's a great tactic by the way. Conveniently not understanding examples or analogies as they pertain to God when clearly you do. Are they all fallacies? No. Are some tactics borderline or definite red herrings because some are meant as distraction? Yes. Have you done all of that within this thread? No, but again I'm not scrutinizing your posts all that closely and talked to you for years now.....I know what's up.
We've had lengthy discussions about all sorts of things and you reject almost everything I say. That's fine and you're free to do so. Why should I continue lengthy discussion? I've done the tit for tat, point for point, quote every line, respond to almost every word or phrase approach repeatedly with you. Back in May or June we did that over a period of almost 2 weeks....we've done it before that.....and before that.....I'm all God, you're no God...we know this. It's fine if you want to continue posting and discussing, but don't expect that same "level of service" from me. And because I don't don't insult me by saying I can't....you know I can. This is probably the longest reply I'll make. If you dissect and parse it so be it.....I won't do the same.
You certainly have engaged me in debate in the past and have tried to provide answers to my questions and to address my criticism. I certainly respect that.
Nobody is forcing you to continue debating this – or any topic – but I think that it speaks volumes that you cannot challenge the arguments I make without resorting to things along the lines of "well, many others believe this" and "if you believed then you'd have proof."
You have your beliefs. Good for you. I respect your right to believe whatever you want to, as long as you don't try to force those beliefs down my throat or impose your divinely-inspired theory of morality on me. You aren't, and so we are perfectly fine.
But you can't expect me to not criticize you if you present your beliefs as based on facts; to question why your God obscures himself from view but demands worship; to ask why he offers us salvation through Jesus Christ when the thing he's saving us from is his own wrath. These are serious theological questions that go to the root your beliefs!
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How's this for incomprehensible, according to religious doctrine (Catholic), a baby is born with original sin. If this baby isn't baptized, regardless of why and it dies within hours, days months or years of having been born, it goes to "limbo" or according to St. Augustine, unbaptized children who die are condemned to hell, though they do not suffer all its pains because they are not guilty of personal sin.
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How's this for incomprehensible, according to religious doctrine (Catholic), a baby is born with original sin. If this baby isn't baptized, regardless of why and it dies within hours, days months or years of having been born, it goes to "limbo" or according to St. Augustine, unbaptized children who die are condemned to hell, though they do not suffer all its pains because they are not guilty of personal sin.
Pretty whacked system.. whoever came up with it sucks
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Pretty whacked system.. whoever came up with it sucks
According to some, "this is the word of God."
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According to some, "this is the word of God."
that would truly be sad... can't imagine some of the things in that book coming from a God
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How's this for incomprehensible, according to religious doctrine (Catholic), a baby is born with original sin. If this baby isn't baptized, regardless of why and it dies within hours, days months or years of having been born, it goes to "limbo" or according to St. Augustine, unbaptized children who die are condemned to hell, though they do not suffer all its pains because they are not guilty of personal sin.
This doctrine has changed over time, as Catholics were never quite satisfied with the fate of unbaptized babies.
First they were condemned to hell, but it was better hell; hell suburbs, I guess - horrible, but not ultimate horrible. Cooler fire, I think. (Or reversed: they went to heaven, but ghetto heaven. I forget.)
Each time, some holy fella had to go pray about it until God clarified. Obviously, He wasn't sure Himself, as His explanation kept changing. Or maybe He just caved to popular opinion, who knows.
Eventually they/He invented Limbo to shut everyone up. Like much of Catholicism, it's nowhere in the bible. Ascension of Mary is another example. God forgot to mention this part, too.
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This doctrine has changed over time, as Catholics were never quite satisfied with the fate of unbaptized babies.
First they were condemned to hell, but it was better hell; hell suburbs, I guess - horrible, but not ultimate horrible. Cooler fire, I think. (Or reversed: they went to heaven, but ghetto heaven. I forget.)
Each time, some holy fella had to go pray about it until God clarified. Obviously, He wasn't sure Himself, as His explanation kept changing. Or maybe He just caved to popular opinion, who knows.
Eventually they/He invented Limbo to shut everyone up. Like much of Catholicism, it's nowhere in the bible. Ascension of Mary is another example. God forgot to mention this part to the authors.
good ole "sola Roma" doctrines and random papal decrees of the teaching magisterium.
catholics aren't christians. LOL, many christians aren't christians either....sad actually. :'(
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good ole "sola Roma" doctrines and random papal decrees of the teaching magisterium.
catholics aren't christians. LOL, many christians aren't christians either....sad actually. :'(
If by many you mean most... I agree.