Bush's War on Frontline - Mon & Tues

[Straw Man]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

[Straw Man]

I think this has potential because most people (I assume) who post on this board can remember in their adult lifetime the actual events and their own perspective at that time  and now

[Hugo Chavez]

I think this has potential mostly because most (I assume) who post on this board can remember in their adult lifetime the actual events and their own perspective at that time  and now

to bad almost nobody will watch it.

[Straw Man]

to bad almost nobody will watch it.

Frontline does good stuff

I'm pretty sure it's going to be FREE on the internet and also FREE on the PUBLIC AIR WAVES

[Hugo Chavez]

Frontline does good stuff

I'm pretty sure it's going to be FREE on the internet and also FREE on the PUBLIC AIR WAVES

Oh yea, I was just referring to people on this board.  I love the frontline stuff for the most part.  But here, people cringe at clips over 3 minutes and frequently note their ADD  They want cliff notes on everything.

[Straw Man]

bump for tonight

[Hugo Chavez]

So far this is crap but there are two parts, we'll see where it goes...

[240 is Back]

So far this is crap but there are two parts, we'll see where it goes...

the dissension among the neocons is interesting.  kind of dispels the belief of one evil group planning to take over the world.  Rather, it looks like several competing factions.... who all want to milk the middle east, essentially.  Cheney looks a lot like he's running the country in it.

[Hugo Chavez]

the dissension among the neocons is interesting.  kind of dispels the belief of one evil group planning to take over the world.  Rather, it looks like several competing factions.... who all want to milk the middle east, essentially.  Cheney looks a lot like he's running the country in it.

where did you draw that from   Looks more like those who were not in the group got pushed aside.  Powel being the best example of that.  He wasn't a neocon and they quickly grouped to sidline his ass...

[Hugo Chavez]

OK, I don't mean to undermine this Frontline episode.  I'll just say it's missing very important info but there are some really good things covered for sure.  I say it's a must see.  In the end dig up and read/view everything you can and the complete picture emerges along with the failures of each of these works.  Yes, view all rightwing and leftwing info, I am actually confident that if you approach all the info without bias that the intellectual mind minus bias will come out with some amazing reality.

I will say that in this first episode, GW got a free ride with the blame for everything placed on everyone but him--that's in part, bullshit...

But in my opinion  you should watch this, watch/read everything left right middle that you can until the behind the scenes events and circumstances come together in a way as to portray a true image.  This work contains valuable info that won't really fit into a depiction of reality unless you are sincere about digging into all of it--if I would beg one thing in my life of all of you, it is that you do that.

For some it will be a challenge, you refuse to see what the right says, you refuse to see what the left says, don't be like that, it's amazing the truth that emerges once you spend the time to listen to every single item on the issue.

[Straw Man]

yeah this is being framed (and perhaps rightly so) with much of the blame and control on the Cheney/Rumsfeld connection with their various deputies nudging things along.    Basically stuff we already knew but also kind of suprising how Blair got played by Bush/Cheney. 

[Hugo Chavez]

yeah this is being framed (and perhaps rightly so) with much of the blame and control on the Cheney/Rumsfeld connection with their various deputies nudging things along.    Basically stuff we already knew but also kind of suprising how Blair got played by Bush/Cheney. 

Make no mistake, Tony Blair is one of the most brilliant minds to enter politics, he didn't get "played" by the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney as easily as the Frontline doc let on...  The picture is a bit bigger than that.

[calmus]

Make no mistake, Tony Blair is one of the most brilliant minds to enter politics, he didn't get "played" by the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney as easily as the Frontline doc let on...  The picture is a bit bigger than that.

Poor Tony Blair.  He started with a bang, but he ended with a whimper.

[Straw Man]

Make no mistake, Tony Blair is one of the most brilliant minds to enter politics, he didn't get "played" by the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney as easily as the Frontline doc let on...  The picture is a bit bigger than that.

it sounded like he got tricked by Bush and Cheney into agreeing to go to war IF the UN resolution failed only to find out later that Bush/Cheney had no plans to pursuit that route to it end.

[calmus]

it sounded like he got tricked by Bush and Cheney into agreeing to go to war IF the UN resolution failed only to find out later that Bush/Cheney had no plans to pursuit that route to it end.

I'm not watching the program, and I don't know that I will, but I'm curious... Do they say why he continued to go along with the Bush II war then? He could have withdrawn like the Spaniards did.  Was he worried that he would be seen as a waffler?

[Hugo Chavez]

it sounded like he got tricked by Bush and Cheney into agreeing to go to war IF the UN resolution failed only to find out later that Bush/Cheney had no plans to pursuit that route to it end.

yup, that's the Frontline take, but the truth is that Blair was on board with the stipulation that Bush takes the case to the UN.  This is why we saw Bush go from talking about not needing the UN to overnight deciding to go to the UN.  Blair had a prior opinion of the importance of spreading democracies and it being the duty of the west to do so.  The part where they made it look like Blair was played was silly.  Blair has the wit to play Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the like ten times over.  He knew exacty what he was doing and why he was doing it.

[Straw Man]

I'm not watching the program, and I don't know that I will, but I'm curious... Do they say why he continued to go along with the Bush II war then? He could have withdrawn like the Spaniards did.  Was he worried that he would be seen as a waffler?

I only caught the middle of it.  I watched it at a friend hosue and left before it was over.  I've got in on DVR at my place so I'll watch it later tonight or tomorrow.   I was suprised to learn the Powell (Sec. of State) had to go through Condi to talk to Bush and also just how much both Rice and Powell were pushed aside but Cheney and Rumsfeld (according to Powell and Rice underlings)

[Hugo Chavez]

I'm not watching the program, and I don't know that I will, but I'm curious... Do they say why he continued to go along with the Bush II war then? He could have withdrawn like the Spaniards did.  Was he worried that he would be seen as a waffler?

It does not say in the doc, but it's because of Blair's firm belief of the role of the west to spread freedom/democracy throughout the world.  He truly believes it to be the greater cause.  Had Blair not seen the ultimate war's "goal match" with his ideology, he would have verbally ended Bush's war path in less than 60 seconds.

[Straw Man]

yup, that's the Frontline take, but the truth is that Blair was on board with the stipulation that Bush takes the case to the UN.  This is why we saw Bush go from talking about not needing the UN to overnight deciding to go to the UN.  Blair had a prior opinion of the importance of spreading democracies and it being the duty of the west to do so.  The part where they made it look like Blair was played was silly.  Blair has the wit to play Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the like ten times over.  He knew exacty what he was doing and why he was doing it.

I really don't know that much about Blair, his intentions, etc..

I do know that this (as with all shows) is someone's perspective and everyone is trying to frame the story in their own way.    

[Hugo Chavez]

I only caught the middle of it.  I watched it at a friend hosue and left before it was over.  I've got in on DVR at my place so I'll watch it later tonight or tomorrow.   I was suprised to learn the Powell (Sec. of State) had to go through Condi to talk to Bush and also just how much both Rice and Powell were pushed aside but Cheney and Rumsfeld (according to Powell and Rice underlings)

yea, isn't it interesting that Powell seemed to be sent away all at the wrong times....

[Straw Man]

It does not say in the doc, but it's because of Blair's firm belief of the role of the west to spread freedom/democracy throughout the world.  He truly believes it to be the greater cause.  Had Blair not seen the ultimate war's "goal match" with his ideology, he would have verbally ended Bush's war path in less than 60 seconds.

I have not seen it all yet but I heard the filmaker on NPR this afternoon and he made it seem like Blair was very concerned about the US rushing to war with Iraq but perhaps that is just his perspective.  

[calmus]

I can't figure out if Powell was really taken advantage of, or if it's all just post-failure spin.

Hugo, are you suggesting that Blair developed/followed his own version of Wolfowitzism?  

[Bindare_Dundat]

I'm not watching the program, and I don't know that I will, but I'm curious... Do they say why he continued to go along with the Bush II war then? He could have withdrawn like the Spaniards did.  Was he worried that he would be seen as a waffler?

That was the basics of it. They just called it a major blunder on his part, that Blair was too confident but too inexperienced, wanted to look like a man of his word. I got the impression that he really thought that the weapons inspections were going to work out and that they wouldn't have to go to war. I think he shit a brick when he found out the the push for war was coming fast and hard.

For some reason  Wolfowitz's and Rumsfields claims that it would take much less then hundreds of thousends of troops struck me as amusing, I remember when that whole thing was playing out, just one more screw up in collections of many blunders.

Good documentary.

[Hugo Chavez]

I really don't know that much about Blair, his intentions, etc..

I do know that this (as with all shows) is someone's perspective and everyone is trying to frame the story in their own way.    

I'll just say that there's no way Blair got played like the Frontline doc laid it out.  No way... He had precise reasons for getting on board.  Again, I don't mean to undermine the Frontline episode, no work I've ever seen puts it all together.  It has good stuff, so all I'm doing is critical review in the aftermath of the work as is norm.  It had good stuff, not so good stuff and a few bad things IMO...  I still say it's a must watch.

[Hugo Chavez]

I can't figure out if Powell was really taken advantage of, or if it's all just post-failure spin.

Hugo, are you suggesting that Blair developed/followed his own version of Wolfowitzism?  

Not quite, but what I'm saying is he saw a practical match in his ideology of the West's mission in the world and the neocon's mission.  add in a little "the end justifies the means" and whala...  Blair had his stipulations to get on board, they met that with the help of Blair's plagiarist friends at 10 Downing Street.