Author Topic: No Stand Down Order...  (Read 4031 times)

Cavalier22

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No Stand Down Order...
« on: April 04, 2007, 11:56:58 AM »
No Stand-Down Order
CLAIM: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."

FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.

source: Popular Mechanics
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 12:04:18 PM »


FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states.

so it ws plain incompotence? <sp?>
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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 12:07:19 PM »
source: Popular Mechanics


PM was selected to be the govt's official media liason for 9/11 questions.

the editors claimed they saw evidence no one else did.  Legall, can you show a magazine publisher evidence that congress cannot see?

The editor is the cousin of homeland security chief michael chertoff.

The editors went on a radio show (i posted the audio clip) and they were dismantled.  They claimed they KNEW that all the dna from the ten Twin tower hijackers was found, tested, compared, and identified within 23 hours.  When pressed on HOW the govt did this, and how they verified it, they got pissy and ended the interview.

I will dig up the clip (unless someone else has it)  popular mechanics was commissioned by the govt to write a propaganda piece.  They were the ones who said "when silverstein said pull building 7 - he meant firefighters.  our research shows the term is not used by demolitions teams".

we can go for days on PM, Cav, if you believe they are an unbiased source here.  Do you?

militarymuscle69

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 12:08:08 PM »
No Stand-Down Order
CLAIM: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."

FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.

source: Popular Mechanics

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 12:08:48 PM »
mm69, do you believe PM is an unbiased publication in this case?

Tre

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 12:10:59 PM »

After the plane hit the first tower, why wasn't there immediate action?

When I first turned on the TV that morning, CNN and other news stations were reporting that 'a small plane' had crashed into the WTC. 

militarymuscle69

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 12:12:52 PM »
mm69, do you believe PM is an unbiased publication in this case?

In all honesty, and I think you know this...I don't believe ANYTHING is unbiased. it is human nature to fight for a cause. However, I have said repeatedly that Jets on that day would have been from Langley (like the story supports) if there had been any, and the 14 jets on standby supports my claim of one FW on each coast being on alert. I also doubt that they made up the quotes from NORAD.
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militarymuscle69

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 12:13:25 PM »
After the plane hit the first tower, why wasn't there immediate action?

When I first turned on the TV that morning, CNN and other news stations were reporting that 'a small plane' had crashed into the WTC. 

What was the time difference between the 2 jets? Serious question
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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 12:14:21 PM »
After the plane hit the first tower, why wasn't there immediate action?

When I first turned on the TV that morning, CNN and other news stations were reporting that 'a small plane' had crashed into the WTC. 

tre, at 8:21, the FAA notified the secret service about plane #1 being hijacked.

Bush knew at 9 AM that 3 planes had been hijacked and one had already crashed.

He told the school staff he knew abuot one crash.

This was a lie.

When he acted surprised that plane #2 had crashed, he had already known that plane #1 was a hijacked plane which hit.

FAA spilled the beans on the stand at the 911 commission, then bush decided not to testify before them in open court.  I wonder why.

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 12:15:00 PM »
In all honesty, and I think you know this...I don't believe ANYTHING is unbiased. it is human nature to fight for a cause. However, I have said repeatedly that Jets on that day would have been from Langley (like the story supports) if there had been any, and the 14 jets on standby supports my claim of one FW on each coast being on alert. I also doubt that they made up the quotes from NORAD.

the govt hired PM to do the piece.
showed the secret evidence.
kept it 'in the family'.


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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 12:17:35 PM »
What was the time difference between the 2 jets? Serious question

hijacked 8:16
notified sec srvc/norad at 8:21
plane 1 hit at 8:46
plane 2 at 9:02 (i believe)

plane 3 at 9:37 am - pentagon
plane 4 at 10:10

militarymuscle69

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 12:18:19 PM »
the govt hired PM to do the piece.
showed the secret evidence.
kept it 'in the family'.



So there story is all a bunch of lies? and yours is all truth?
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Cavalier22

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 12:18:55 PM »
I believed it was a relatively unbiased source until now...you have peaked my interest though I am doing a little research on it
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militarymuscle69

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 12:21:09 PM »
hijacked 8:16
notified sec srvc/norad at 8:21
plane 1 hit at 8:46
plane 2 at 9:02 (i believe)

plane 3 at 9:37 am - pentagon
plane 4 at 10:10

Even with a 15 minute response time that Alert ramps require, the first plane would have hit, after that I can't speak for the pilots or ground crew. I do know that pre 9/11 it was lax...no one thought that shit would have happened, so maybe they were running around like chickens with their heads cut off..
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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2007, 12:22:41 PM »
I believed it was a relatively unbiased source until now...you have peaked my interest though I am doing a little research on it

Debate between loose change kids, and popular mechanics.  This was a big one:
7 minutes each part, and very entertaining.  A live debate.

part 1-


part 2-


part 3-


part 4-


part 5-



Cav, I would love to hear your take on it.

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2007, 12:23:32 PM »
Even with a 15 minute response time that Alert ramps require, the first plane would have hit, after that I can't speak for the pilots or ground crew. I do know that pre 9/11 it was lax...no one thought that shit would have happened, so maybe they were running around like chickens with their heads cut off..

the FAA to NORAD recording was "we have a plane hijacked... this is real life... we're gonna need a decision from someone there in the next ten minutes or so"

Cavalier22

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2007, 12:23:59 PM »
On February 7, 2005, (Afterward)

I became a member of the Bush/Halliburton/Zionist/CIA/New World Order/ Illuminati conspiracy for global domination. It was on that day the March 2005 issue of Popular Mechanics, with its cover story debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, hit newsstands. Within hours, the online community of 9/11 conspiracy buffs—which calls itself the “9/11 Truth Movement”—was aflame with wild fantasies about me and my staff, the magazine I edit, and the article we had published.

The Web site www.911research.wtc7.net, an organization that claims that questioning the “official” story of 9/11 is “an act of responsible citizenship,” fired one of the first salvos: “Popular Mechanics Attacks Its 9/11 LIES Straw Man,” read the headline of a piece by a leading conspiracy theorist named Jim Hoffman.

We had begun our plunge down the rabbit hole. Within hours, a post on www.portland.indymedia.o rg, which claims to be dedicated to “radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth,” called me “James Meigs the Coward and Traitor.” Not long afterward, another prominent conspiracy theorist produced an analysis that concluded that Popular Mechanics is a CIA front organization. Invective and threats soon clogged the comments section of our Web site and poured in by e-mail:

I was amused at your attempts to prove the conspirator theorists wrong by your interviewing people who work for the government. Face it: The U.S. government planned this attack to further its own agenda in the Middle East.

Rest assured, puppet boys . . . when the hammer comes down about the biggest crime ever perpetrated in the history of man—AND IT WILL—it will be VERY easy to identify the co-conspirators by their flimsy, awkwardly ignorant of reality magazine articles. Keep that in mind the next time you align yourself with evil scum.

YOU HAVE DECLARD YOURSELF ENEMY OF AMERICANS AND FRIEND OF THE MOSSAD!

I shouldn’t have been surprised. In researching the article we’d spent enough time studying the conspiracy movement to get a feel for its style: the tone of outraged patriotism, the apocalyptic rhetoric, the casual use of invective. A common refrain in conspiracy circles is the claim that “We’re just asking questions.” One would think that at least some quarters of the conspiracy movement might welcome a mainstream publication’s serious, nonideological attempt to answer those questions. One would be wrong.

It was only a matter of time before the Nazis got dragged in. Christopher Bollyn, a prominent conspiracy theorist affiliated with the far-right American Free Press, weighed in a few weeks later with a piece titled “The Hidden Hand of the CIA, 911 And Popular Mechanics.” The article begins with a brief history of Hitler’s consolidation of power following the Reichstag fire in 1933. “Like Nazi Germany of 1933,” Bollyn wrote, “American newsstands today carry a mainstream magazine dedicated to pushing the government’s truth of 9/11 while viciously smearing independent researchers as extremists who peddle fantasies and make poisonous claims.”

In a few short weeks, Popular Mechanics had gone from being a 100-year-old journal about science, engineering, car maintenance, and home improvement to being a pivotal player in a global conspiracy on a par with Nazi Germany.

Not all the responses were negative, of course. One visitor to our Web site, after plowing through dozens of angry comments, left a supportive post that included this astute observation:

Some people are open to any possibility, and honestly examine all evidence in a rational manner to come to a conclusion, followed by a moral evaluation. Others start with a desire for a specific moral evaluation, and then work backwards assembling any fact that supports them, and dismissing any fact that does not.


Author Chip Berlet, who is an analyst for the liberal think tank Political Research Associates, employs the awkward but useful term “conspiracism” to describe this mindset. “Populist conspiracism sees secret plots by tiny cabals of evildoers as the major motor powering important historical events,” he writes on the think tank’s Web site. Berlet has spent more than two decades studying far-right and authoritarian movements in the United States. “Every major traumatic event in U.S. history generates a new round of speculation about conspiracies,” he writes. “The attacks on 9/11/01 are no exception.”

As the hate mail poured in and articles claiming to have debunked the magazine’s analysis proliferated online, we soon learned to identify the key techniques that give conspiracy theorists their illusion of coherence.
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Cavalier22

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2007, 12:24:32 PM »
I will watch it.
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Tre

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2007, 12:24:55 PM »
What was the time difference between the 2 jets? Serious question

16 minutes

So, that begs the question: How is it that the news cameras were able to be mobilized faster than the U.S. military?  Were they tipped off in advance?

militarymuscle69

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2007, 12:26:43 PM »
the FAA to NORAD recording was "we have a plane hijacked... this is real life... we're gonna need a decision from someone there in the next ten minutes or so"

ok so that will strengthen my side, so they take 10 minutes to make a decision, then it takes 15 minutes to launch...now the second plane is in the tower
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militarymuscle69

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2007, 12:29:03 PM »
16 minutes

So, that begs the question: How is it that the news cameras were able to be mobilized faster than the U.S. military?  Were they tipped off in advance?

probably
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Tre

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2007, 12:32:02 PM »
ok so that will strengthen my side, so they take 10 minutes to make a decision, then it takes 15 minutes to launch...now the second plane is in the tower

The thing is, in this case, we weren't talking about an 'imminent attack' - the attack had already begun!  

Even though they were wrong in their explanation of the event, at least the news crews were there.  

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2007, 12:46:35 PM »
Please don't try to associate the group of people trying to figure out the truth about 9/11, with some anti-jewish pricks.

The official story folks do that all the time.  They try to associate questioning 9/11 with questioning the holocaust.  The popular mechanic editors USE THIS LINE.  They actually throw out "next thing, you'll be questioning the holocaust" or something like that.  I mean, if that's not meant to piss people off and turn them against the authors, I don't know what is.

The debate is an interesting one.  I hope to hear some feedback on them.  Good tv.

Cavalier22

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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2007, 01:34:47 PM »
I just watched that debate. Very animated, very heated, and a whole shitton of information being thrown around.  I really wish they could do something like this for a longer period of time with more people from each side of the table there to argue their cases.  I for one would watch it.

In defense of the holocaust thing he was saying, I am sure that people bring up anti-semitism a lot against CT'ers.  To be sure, many CT'ers talk about the Zionist plot etc so it goes both ways.  But in this case, he was mentioning how in all conspiracy theories any bit of the puzzle not completely solved is pointed at and used at proof that the whole official story is wrong.  He says Creationists do this, Holocaust Deniers do this, and some other CT theory does this-and he is correct in his thesis, but I don't think he had to bring these issues up other than to say that this is a common practice when people go against the official story. 

I found myself very intrigued by both sides of the story.  By and large I have to give it to the Pop Mechanics guys, but on the Pentagon issue the LC guys scored some points...at the least I wanted that debate to go on longer as I am not really sure as both sides seemed to be talking at each other rather than responding to each other.

The LC guys seemed to rely on eyewitness accounts, which are notoriously unreliable especially in ridiculous situations such as jets hitting buildings and massive fires burning, and buildings collapsing, people jumping off buildlings, etc.  They also kind of make the argument "Look at the how the building collapsed, they wouldn't collapse like this."--kind of appealing to the viewers imagination of how a building would collapse when the structural integrity was lost instead of talking to experts who study this type of thing for a living.  For example, they mention one expert who disagrees with the official story on the towers collapses and say, even the experts don't agree....but it turns out their "expert" is not an expert at all in that field (his field is water related). 
Basically it seems like their video is appealing to the average, uninformed viewer sitting at home going "whoa this is crazy" while their research or theories don't hold water in academic or serious settings by people trained in these fields.

If they are right, then evey expert and non expert who worked on every govt and pop mechanics report and the 9/11 commission would all be in on it and not one of them would have come clean. Also, those who planned this undertaking, all thousands of them would have kept their mouths shut. All these people and others involved (FAA, etfc) would have no problem killing thousands of fellow americans or covering up the killing. It doesn't hold up.  In fact, it is impossible.  Human beings, even if they were so motivated and dedicated, could not keep their mouths shut or cover up their trail.   Every little thing is leaked, how could this be different?  The probability of that happening just doesn't add up. As much of the media is so anti-Bush and anti-US if there was any credible leak or info on this "inside job" there would be no hesitation to run it on the front page-if not here, than across the pond

I am curiuos about those exit holes on th efloors below where the first plane hit, they didn't go into that enough.

The events of 9/11 were by their very nature chaotic and confusing....a multitude of research done has figured out what happened with a few minor questions on peripheral issues. 

That was my take on it....I suggest you all watch it and let us know your opinions.
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Re: No Stand Down Order...
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2007, 02:39:03 PM »
cav, thanks for watching and your feedback.

Here is an audio clip of these very same popular mechanics editors, being asked about their research during a radio interview.

Many believe that this single interview was a huge catalyst in 911 truth.  The editors were, for the first time, asked to explain how they reached their findings from the article.

Start at 2:30 on the mp3.  THis is an interview with the man who verified every fact in the pop mech article.

http://www.911podcasts.com/display.php?vid=158

I'd pay to hear your opinion on this one, cav!  It's 21 minutes of interview, but by the end, it's very much near-meltdown mode by the popular mechanics authors.