Author Topic: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?  (Read 5213 times)

Hedgehog

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Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« on: June 27, 2007, 05:40:35 PM »
Reading one of the posts in thread on this great board, made me think:

What kind of emotions are pets capable of?

Often it seems to me that pet owners subscribe emotions to certain behaviors that their pets have, eg when a dog is looking with "sad eyes" when it's not getting that usual extra treat, the owner feels guilty and thinks the dog is sad.

When it is just a trained behaviour.

Just an example.

-Hedge
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knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2007, 01:28:18 PM »
Reading one of the posts in thread on this great board, made me think:

What kind of emotions are pets capable of?

Often it seems to me that pet owners subscribe emotions to certain behaviors that their pets have, eg when a dog is looking with "sad eyes" when it's not getting that usual extra treat, the owner feels guilty and thinks the dog is sad.

When it is just a trained behaviour.

Just an example.

-Hedge

Sometimes...yes it is....sometimes..no.

When I left for the Marines...my old dog was sad for weeks.  I can't say that was trained behaviour.  I never taught her to do that.

Hedgehog

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2007, 03:35:08 PM »
Sometimes...yes it is....sometimes..no.

When I left for the Marines...my old dog was sad for weeks.  I can't say that was trained behaviour.  I never taught her to do that.

Dogs don't have memory like we humans do, still you believe this?

-Hedge
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knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2007, 04:32:42 PM »
Dogs don't have memory like we humans do, still you believe this?

-Hedge

Dude....you ever own a dog?

How about I've had a dog bury a bone & will dig it up months from the inital burial?

I was gone for one time in the Marines (1 year) & my dog knew exactly who I was.

 ::)

Hedgehog

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2007, 05:11:10 PM »
Dude....you ever own a dog?

How about I've had a dog bury a bone & will dig it up months from the inital burial?

I was gone for one time in the Marines (1 year) & my dog knew exactly who I was.

 ::)

Yeah. But from what I understand, the dog has no concept of the time frame you are gone.

Meaning: The dog doesn't walk around and count the days I am gone if I am away from it, it doesn't miss me like that. But the recollection it has of me may fade slightly.

Ie, a case of us humans subscribing human emotions to our pets IMO.

They're not robots, they experience things and events, but they don't do it the way we do.

Another example is how some dog owners think their dogs are acting guilty when they've done something "bad".

But that's just a trained reaction to their owners behavior.

-Hedge
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knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2007, 05:13:58 PM »
Yeah. But from what I understand, the dog has no concept of the time frame you are gone.

Meaning: The dog doesn't walk around and count the days I am gone if I am away from it, it doesn't miss me like that. But the recollection it has of me may fade slightly.

Ie, a case of us humans subscribing human emotions to our pets IMO.

They're not robots, they experience things and events, but they don't do it the way we do.

Another example is how some dog owners think their dogs are acting guilty when they've done something "bad".

But that's just a trained reaction to their owners behavior.

-Hedge

What kind of dog you have?

What's your involvement?

Hedgehog

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2007, 05:17:45 PM »
What kind of dog you have?

What's your involvement?

Oh sorry, I don't have a dog. My bad. I was merely making a hypothetical example.

-Hedge
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Princess L

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2007, 05:30:57 PM »
I firmly believe dogs experience and express several emotions including fear, sadness, happiness, surprise, curiosity, acceptance, shame, envy, frustration....
:

knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2007, 06:07:44 PM »
Oh sorry, I don't have a dog. My bad. I was merely making a hypothetical example.

-Hedge

hypothetical?

I'm glad you're able to debate someone else's personal experience whilst you have none.

Now I know the debate is dead

knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2007, 06:09:32 PM »
I firmly believe dogs experience and express several emotions including fear, sadness, happiness, surprise, curiosity, acceptance, shame, envy, frustration....


I agree

It's not hard to see when a dog knows he's in the "dog house"

Hell, my behaviour doesn't change necessarily & the dog acts the same.

Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out...but maybe a hedgehog could

 ::)

Hedgehog

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2007, 07:09:37 PM »
I agree

It's not hard to see when a dog knows he's in the "dog house"

Hell, my behaviour doesn't change necessarily & the dog acts the same.

Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out...but maybe a hedgehog could

 ::)

A dog is very good in reading your actions. Even your sublime ones.

So if you act a certain way, your dog may put on a certain act, eg look ashamed, give the sad eyes.

The dogs have no way of understanding when a human is talking to them.

Still, dog owners repeatedly tells their dogs they've been misbehaving, or whatever.

The dog don't understand jack and shit.

The dog understand commands and the love shown by its owner.

But verbal communication? No.

The dog does not understand when their owner is feeling sad either, it just have a trained behavior.

It's simple Pavlov principles.

People are subscribing human qualities to their pets, and their pets gets less life quality for it.

Example: flower told us about how her dogs are pretty wild in her home, but stays cool when she's out walking them.

When do you think the dogs are more at peace?

Just asking.

-Hedge
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knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2007, 07:14:39 PM »
A dog is very good in reading your actions. Even your sublime ones.

So if you act a certain way, your dog may put on a certain act, eg look ashamed, give the sad eyes.

The dogs have no way of understanding when a human is talking to them.

Still, dog owners repeatedly tells their dogs they've been misbehaving, or whatever.

The dog don't understand jack and shit.

The dog understand commands and the love shown by its owner.

But verbal communication? No.

The dog does not understand when their owner is feeling sad either, it just have a trained behavior.

It's simple Pavlov principles.

People are subscribing human qualities to their pets, and their pets gets less life quality for it.

Example: flower told us about how her dogs are pretty wild in her home, but stays cool when she's out walking them.

When do you think the dogs are more at peace?

Just asking.

-Hedge

Coming from a dog owner...I'm sure you're right   ::)

I also guess...you never came home...walked in...& the dog is acting weird (head down, quiet)...(like it shit somewhere) instead of jumping at you like it's happy seeing you?  Hell, I just walked through the door...i don't even have a chance to give a reaction.

I guess you're right...doesn't take a dog owner or even to live in the same house as a dog to know that this doesn't happen.

 ::)

Hedgehog

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2007, 07:22:33 PM »
Coming from a dog owner...I'm sure you're right   ::)

I also guess...you never came home...walked in...& the dog is acting weird (head down, quiet)...(like it shit somewhere) instead of jumping at you like it's happy seeing you?  Hell, I just walked through the door...i don't even have a chance to give a reaction.

I guess you're right...doesn't take a dog owner or even to live in the same house as a dog to know that this doesn't happen.

 ::)

Here's an interesting read bro:

http://www.rps.psu.edu/probing/dog.html



-Hedge
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Princess L

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2007, 07:54:25 PM »
knny, you might be interested in this book.

http://dogwise.com/Item_Inside.cfm?ID=DTB890&curImage=1&Zoom=yes

Hedgie!  She's coming to see you!  Plenty of time to schedule yourself  ;D

AUGUST 30th, 2008
Saturday - For the Love Of A Dog: The Biology of Emotion in People and Dogs
Sunday - Both Ends of the Leash: Understanding the Behavior of Both You and Your Dog
Kristianstad, Sweden
Hundens Osterlen
Contact: Daniel Atterbom, daniel@hundens.se
:

knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2007, 09:59:34 PM »
knny, you might be interested in this book.

http://dogwise.com/Item_Inside.cfm?ID=DTB890&curImage=1&Zoom=yes

Hedgie!  She's coming to see you!  Plenty of time to schedule yourself  ;D

AUGUST 30th, 2008
Saturday - For the Love Of A Dog: The Biology of Emotion in People and Dogs
Sunday - Both Ends of the Leash: Understanding the Behavior of Both You and Your Dog
Kristianstad, Sweden
Hundens Osterlen
Contact: Daniel Atterbom, daniel@hundens.se


Dogs don't have emotions....it's in your head Princes L

 ::)

knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2007, 10:24:43 PM »
Here's an interesting read bro:

http://www.rps.psu.edu/probing/dog.html



-Hedge
 

Sorry...I wasn't floored by it.  It's a subject that is "debatable" even by the person who wrote it.

Quote
The idea that dogs feel emotions, specifically love, is debatable.


Quote
According to Fred Metzger, a guest lecturer in animal sciences at Penn State and a State College veterinarian, "Dogs probably don't feel love in the typical way humans do. Dogs make investments in human beings because it works for them. They stand something to gain from putting so-called emotions out there. The more 'cute factor' they give us, the more we feel like they love us. This makes it more likely that we will give them more attention, food treats, outdoor access—all based on how much of a show they put on for us." Metzger theorizes that dogs "love" us as long as we continue to reward their tricks and antics with treats and attention.

looks like the word he uses is "probably" which opens the door wide open for debate...scientifically or otherwise

btw...my dog I had as a kid...did w/o any rewards & she was not given treats, toys, or scraps.

that idea may or may not be general...but I can't say any dog that I had...was like that personally. 


Quote
In a statement sure to shock dog lovers everywhere, Metzger adds, "If we moved our dogs to our neighbor's house and that neighbor gave the dogs as much as we gave them and in the same motivational forms, I believe our dogs would adapt to the new life and would become as loyal to the neighbor as they were to us."

again...brilliant scientific data...he uses the word "believes"

If they did that to my old dog....I don't care what they would do to show affection...she would bite them.

Adapt?  No...she would of been put down.  She was heading that way before I got her.  Why this dog 'attached' herself to me...I will never know.  She was a neighbors dog & she hung around me.  Would not leave my side....& I never fed the dog other when it was time to eat (after I got her).  I never fed her or hell...even played with her when she was considered the neighbors dog.


Quote
Susan B. Eirich, founder of the Earthfire Institute, thinks that primatologist Jane Goodall's research gives us a good indication that animals actually do have emotions. "From a behavioral perspective, it only makes sense that animals would experience emotions...As Goodall notes, social animals must be able to read other animals in their society, and must be able to maintain social bonds." "When you think about it," explains Eirich, "strong emotion underpins social behavior and connection."

Animals have emotions?  Maybe it's just in the owners head?

Quote
Eirich suggests that emotions underlie intraspecies communication, from barking to growling to the baring of teeth to show anger and aggression. So, are those "puppy dog eyes" signaling true love or a manipulation to get dog biscuits out of you? As long as science remains undecided, the meaning of your dog's "happily" wagging tail is up for interpretation.

yup....looks pretty black & white
 ::)

what happens where your dog does these things...& there's no biscuit?

Funny thing is....humans (which are supposed to be able to express love & emotion) do a worse job than any dog I've ever come in contact with.

How many people can say they know what true love is...then divorce because they said they don't know what love is or fell out of love, etc...

Dogs (IMO) express an unconditional love far better than humans.  How many times has someone Read an article about a dog that won't leave a masters grave site after they died?

I guess the dog is waiting for a biscuit.


 ;D

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2007, 03:52:37 AM »
Example: flower told us about how her dogs are pretty wild in her home, but stays cool when she's out walking them.

When do you think the dogs are more at peace?


  ???   I have stated I probably let them get away with more than some people would. IE: I let them all over the furniture, I let them eat bones on the carpet, I let them play wrestle in the living room to the point that they may slam into me.  On walks I don't let them chase after cats or squirrels, or go running over to every person. They have to walk in a manageable group or we aren't going. So when I say they are "better behaved" on walks than at home, that is why I say that.  They are "at peace" at home and on walks because the boundaries are known for each. 

    You seem to have a lot of "opinions" for someone who has never even had a pet.
  :-\

   

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2007, 04:13:27 AM »
They have emotions, maybe not as deep or developed as human emotions.  Certainly fear is one.   And anyone who has watched a dog just running to run, or a kitten or cat swatting and bouncing around at something, or a puppy with it's tail wagging 100pmh as he plays with a toy can't tell me those animals are not "happy".

   Sure dogs can read our body language and tone of voice cues too, that is true.   But almost every dog owner has come home one day and said hello to the dog and it looks at you like it's in trouble.  Then you go and find out what it had done.  The dog knew it did something wrong and expresses shame? 

  How many animals have mourned the loss of a long time companion, animal or human?   Or is it coincidence that the animals stop eating and playing, and walk around appearing to be looking for something?  Some will even die shortly after their companion. 

  I give out very few treats in my house, my dogs come over for attention, not to get treats.  If they don't have any emotions or feelings, why bother to lay their head in someone's lap or on their chest to get a pet or cuddle?

  Again, I don't think they run to the same depth as human emotions, but they are there. 

  Here's an example in elephants.  Their was a show about an elephant rescue. They took elephants from the circuses and working elephants and let them live out their last years in peace.   They brought in a new elephant and had it separated so it would get used to the place.  It was next to another female elephant.  Turns out those 2 elephants had been at the same circus 10 years ago!!  They recognized each other by smell, site, or however.   They broke down the partition between them to be able to get their trunks to touch and they held trunks.  It was remarkable!!   You can't tell me that for them seeing someone they knew wasn't a joyous occasion.  They would of killed themselves to just be able to touch like that.  Ok, I was crying.  After the lives those 2 had lead, to be able to find some comfort in an old "friend" was very touching.  You can't tell me that emotions were not involved. 

Hedgehog

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2007, 04:32:35 AM »
 

Sorry...I wasn't floored by it.  It's a subject that is "debatable" even by the person who wrote it.


My bad, should've mentioned that I thought the article was good, since it looked at at least two points of views on this.

Instead of just argueing one side. ;)

-Hedge
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~flower~

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2007, 06:03:33 AM »
People are subscribing human qualities to their pets, and their pets gets less life quality for it.


Please expand on this statement.   What "life quality" are they getting less of? Examples?

Lord Humungous

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2007, 06:08:58 AM »
Animals can be sinister too, here's a great exaple of a creature up to no good.

X

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2007, 06:12:31 AM »
that's a prairie dog, not a chipmunk   ::)

gtbro1

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2007, 06:12:38 AM »
  All I know is the dog that bit a chunk out of my ass last week was all kinds of pissed off when he done it.

~flower~

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2007, 06:14:46 AM »
No he wasn't, they don't have emotions, he was just hungry.  ;D

knny187

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Re: Pet Emotions - Real or in the head of the owner?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2007, 08:56:11 AM »
My bad, should've mentioned that I thought the article was good, since it looked at at least two points of views on this.

Instead of just argueing one side. ;)

-Hedge

I thought it was going to show some solid scientific backup to your theory since you really don't have any on-hand experience of your own.

 ::)