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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Coach is Back! on April 27, 2010, 09:18:15 AM
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THE remains of Noah's Ark have been discovered 13,000ft up a Turkish mountain, it has been claimed.
A group of Chinese and Turkish evangelical explorers say they have found wooden remains on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey.
They claim carbon dating proves the relics are 4,800 years old — around the same time the ark was said to be afloat.
Noah's Ark
Biblical tale ... Noah filled the ark with two of each animal species
Yeung Wing-Cheung, from the Noah's Ark Ministries International research team, said: "It's not 100 per cent that it is Noah's Ark, but we think it is 99.9 per cent that this is it."
Dig
He said the structure contained several compartments, some with wooden beams, that they believe were used to house animals.
The group of evangelical archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds none have ever been found above 11,000ft in the vicinity, Yeung said.
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Local Turkish officials will ask the central government in Ankara to apply for UNESCO World Heritage status so the site can be protected while a major archaeological dig is conducted.
The biblical story says that God decided to flood the Earth after seeing how corrupt it was.
He then told Noah to build an ark and fill it with two of every animal species.
After the flood waters receded, the Bible says, the ark came to rest on a mountain.
Many believe that Mount Ararat, the highest point in the region, is where the ark and her inhabitants ran aground.
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2949640/Noahs-Ark-found-in-Turkey.html#ixzz0mJmCVe00
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2949640/Noahs-Ark-found-in-Turkey.html
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The great flood myths are very common around the bigger parts of africa, europe and asia. The origins of those myths are usually attributed to the flooding of great rivers like Tigris and the Nile. There is no evidence for a world wide flood.
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(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1212/1398691230_1ce1fbbeb3.jpg)
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mount ararat as the site of the ark has been a popular idea since the 70's, when the CIA took those famous photos.
Since then, it's been shown they're nothing but rock formations and the guy who claimed he brought wood (that the ark was made from) down has been exposed as a hoax.
sorry man, i want to believe as i love that crap, but i don't think there's shit up there.
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also, the sun is the us equivalent of the national enquirer, so i wouldn't trust it too much.
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God wanted us to find the ark, 6000 years later...
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LMAO...Joe will beleive anything...oh man this is good....
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They claim carbon dating proves the relics are 4,800 years old — around the same time the ark was said to be afloat.
Haha this is just too funny. Last time I checked a lot of creationists have a big problem with carbon dating, but whenever it fits their purposes I guess it's all good.
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Ironeck made this find he deserves credit.
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I wonder if I go to my local Home Depot if I can pick a load of gopher wood?
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I wonder if I go to my local Home Depot if I can pick a load of gopher wood?
LMAO ;D
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ha ha...how old did this Noah live to be?
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The real question is are there any dinosaur bones in it :o
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ha ha...how old did this Noah live to be?
It was like 900 years or something. And you can bet Coach would be moaning about how much old age pension and social security retirement benefits this Noah guy was soaking up. ;D
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Noah's ark gets "found" about 3 times a decade.....
Someone finds something that looks like wood on a mountain and religious nuts around the world instantly start screaming "noah's ark!!"
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As said before this claim of an 'Ark' on Mount Ararat have been going on for nearly a 100 years, almost yearly and they all get exposed as hoaxes/rock formations.The fact all the soil/rocks etc around the area prove that there has never been water at that height on the mountain makes all these discoveries completely ludicrous.
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::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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It was like 900 years or something. And you can bet Coach would be moaning about how much old age pension and social security retirement benefits this Noah guy was soaking up. ;D
ha ha...so you have some cat living for 900 years building a boat so big that even with todays modern technology would be near impossible...then gathering two of however you want to word it into said boat.then it rains simultaneously all over the entire world...And people wonder why they get laughed at for believing such drivel...
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So global climate change due to transportation, factories and refineries spewing endless amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere for a century and a half is impossible, Coach, but the ark fairytale is entirely plausible to you?
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The real question is are there any dinosaur bones in it :o
Actually, God told Noah to leave the dinos behind because he knew they would eat all the other animals. When the flood waters receded, the dinos became burried under many metres of mud and silt. A few thousand years later, people are digging up these dino bones and falsely think they're millions of years old. I thought that was common knowledge.
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So global climate change due to transportation, factories and refineries spewing endless amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere for a century and a half is impossible, Coach, but the ark fairytale is entirely plausible to you?
This^^^^^
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So global climate change due to transportation, factories and refineries spewing endless amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere for a century and a half is impossible, Coach, but the ark fairytale is entirely plausible to you?
It's also entirely plausible to Coach that Jesus was a coldblooded capitalist.
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Actually, God told Noah to leave the dinos behind because he knew they would eat all the other animals. When the flood waters receded, the dinos became burried under many metres of mud and silt. A few thousand years later, people are digging up these dino bones and falsely think they're millions of years old. I thought that was common knowledge.
this stuff is pure comedy gold^^^keep um comin...
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If you think the Ark was real you are a complete dumbass with no sense of reality. All the animals in the world on one boat in a few days. LOL. Keep christianing it up. Their trick is working you silly fool.
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the Torah has more spiritual truth than literal truth
it's foolish to dismiss Christianity because of the Jewish holy book
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i still believes in the easter rabbit toooo...
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It is actually very believable there was a world wide flood. Practically every culture recounts a story of it in some manner or other. How could all these cultures be telling the same story even though they are separated by language barriers, regional barriers, etc.
Also, the mountain, grand canyon, etc. all point towards a flood. The layers of the earths surface as well.
Basic science...rapid moving water automatically "stratifies" earth...creating layers very quickly. There is actually quite a bit of science and reasoning that points to a flood. to blindly close your eyes and say "it isnt' true" just b/c its biblical seems a little illogical.
The grand canyon and mountains do not indicate floods. What they indicate is higher water levels in some areas due to tectonic shifts. Ebbs and flows as water eventually recedes creates the crevasses of the Grand Canyon. Look up "Pangea" and you'll see where it started.
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Brilliant. If Johnny F sniffs paint every day for 30 years he will have the intellectual dimensions of "god".
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It is actually very believable there was a world wide flood. Practically every culture recounts a story of it in some manner or other. How could all these cultures be telling the same story even though they are separated by language barriers, regional barriers, etc.
As I said previously, this is most likely due to the fact that the Tigris river and the Nile could flood over pretty badly. And myths like that have a tendency to spread.
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::) ::)
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*just sitting back reading the responses*
Haha!
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It is actually very believable there was a world wide flood. Practically every culture recounts a story of it in some manner or other. How could all these cultures be telling the same story even though they are separated by language barriers, regional barriers, etc.
Also, the mountain, grand canyon, etc. all point towards a flood. The layers of the earths surface as well.
Basic science...rapid moving water automatically "stratifies" earth...creating layers very quickly. There is actually quite a bit of science and reasoning that points to a flood. to blindly close your eyes and say "it isnt' true" just b/c its biblical seems a little illogical.
ha ha every culture recounts the story lol...of what?a flood...these cultures had no idea how the earth or any weather phenomenon actually occurred(lightning,tornado's,earthquakes)...these "cultures"thought the earth was flat for crying out loud...I'm sure if there was a flood in there specific area they thought it was flooding everywhere...they did not know any better...the sad thing is in this modern day there are still people that don't know any better...
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If you think the Ark was real you are a complete dumbass with no sense of reality. All the animals in the world on one boat in a few days. LOL. Keep christianing it up. Their trick is working you silly fool.
how large must this boat be in order to support elephants, alligators, giraffes, gorillas, polar bears, rhinoceros' and komodo dragons?
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how large must this boat be in order to support elephants, alligators, giraffes, gorillas, polar bears, rhinoceros' and komodo dragons?
exactly...Bigger than any boat ever made...bigger than an aircraft carrier...
But it's all moot...If you are delusional enough to think a guy lived for hundreds & hundreds and hundreds of years building said boat...well...There's no point in continuing any conversation on the subject because logic has already been thrown out the window...
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exactly...Bigger than any boat ever made...bigger than an aircraft carrier...
But it's all moot...If you are delusional enough to think a guy lived for hundreds & hundreds and hundreds of years building said boat...well...There's no point in continuing any conversation on the subject because logic has already been thrown out the window...
how did noah stop the animals from fighting eachother? how did noah gather two polar bears from the arctic, and still have time to go all the way to the pacific islands and get a komodo dragon? he also had to stop in africa to get two gorillas. how did he accomplish all of this before the world flooded? how did a boat that is made of wood and rope support the weight of said animals?
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The real question is are there any dinosaur bones in it :o
they didnt get the memo. one huge hole in Christianity in which its followers choose to ignore
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how did noah stop the animals from fighting eachother? how did noah gather two polar bears from the arctic, and still have time to go all the way to the pacific islands and get a komodo dragon? he also had to stop in africa to get two gorillas. how did he accomplish all of this before the world flooded? how did a boat that is made of wood and rope support the weight of said animals?
lmao...
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one can add to the argument for a deluge not just what is written in sumerian, egyptian, babylonian texts, the bible, mesoamerican indian lore, native american indian lore, east indian belief systems but physical evidence of fossilised sea urchins found in limestone formations in the middle of the sahara desert.
the evidence for a great flood is too overwhelming to ignore, whether you are an atheist or not.
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Oh thank I've been looking for that all day...now I can go home! :D
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What would Storm-trooper Jesus do?
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Funny coach clings to this when its carbon dating that supposedly proves the legitimacy of The 'Ark', the same carbon dating that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the fact of evolution
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ha ha...so you have some cat living for 900 years building a boat so big that even with todays modern technology would be near impossible...then gathering two of however you want to word it into said boat.then it rains simultaneously all over the entire world...And people wonder why they get laughed at for believing such drivel...
I always wondered, how can they say he lived for 900 years when they didn't even know what a year was then?
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If the Bible says the universe is 6,000 years old, how are we able to see galaxies billions of light years distant?
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If the Bible says the universe is 6,000 years old, how are we able to see galaxies billions of light years distant?
God put them there to test our faith
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God put them there to test our faith
Like there isn't enough world problems
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how large must this boat be in order to support elephants, alligators, giraffes, gorillas, polar bears, rhinoceros' and komodo dragons?
Estimated to be around 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and about three stories high or the equivalent of about 500 box cars.
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Estimated to be around 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and about three stories high or the equivalent of about 500 box cars.
Do you really believe in Noah's ark ,Coach ?
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Actually, God told Noah to leave the dinos behind because he knew they would eat all the other animals. When the flood waters receded, the dinos became burried under many metres of mud and silt. A few thousand years later, people are digging up these dino bones and falsely think they're millions of years old. I thought that was common knowledge.
You are wrong, heavyNbasic. Satan put the dinosaur bones in the ground to deceive us!!!!
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I always wondered, how can they say he lived for 900 years when they didn't even know what a year was then?
that's the whole thing these people knew next to nothing in regards to time,weather,astrology,or the earth yet people take what these ancient people say to be the gospel...
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how did noah stop the animals from fighting eachother? how did noah gather two polar bears from the arctic, and still have time to go all the way to the pacific islands and get a komodo dragon? he also had to stop in africa to get two gorillas. how did he accomplish all of this before the world flooded? how did a boat that is made of wood and rope support the weight of said animals?
Noah was a swole biblical mf'er
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that's the whole thing these people knew next to nothing in regards to time,weather,astrology,or the earth yet people take what these ancient people say to be the gospel...
There is a high possibility that there were antediluvian civilizations that were more advanced than us in our current state.
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Actually, God told Noah to leave the dinos behind because he knew they would eat all the other animals. When the flood waters receded, the dinos became burried under many metres of mud and silt. A few thousand years later, people are digging up these dino bones and falsely think they're millions of years old. I thought that was common knowledge.
Hahhaha, I bet someone like Palin would tell that to her kids
on a serious note, didn't Discovery Channel or National Geo Channel do something showing that there are outlines of a huge boat on Mt Ararat? And aren't there Nasa pics of that as well. But because it is in a hostile area noone can really to and search that area.
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Do you really believe in Noah's ark ,Coach ?
If someone answers yes to this question it must only be a glitch in the matrix. :(
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THE remains of Noah's Ark have been discovered 13,000ft up a Turkish mountain, it has been claimed.
A group of Chinese and Turkish evangelical explorers say they have found wooden remains on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey.
They claim carbon dating proves the relics are 4,800 years old — around the same time the ark was said to be afloat.
Noah's Ark
Biblical tale ... Noah filled the ark with two of each animal species
Yeung Wing-Cheung, from the Noah's Ark Ministries International research team, said: "It's not 100 per cent that it is Noah's Ark, but we think it is 99.9 per cent that this is it."
Dig
He said the structure contained several compartments, some with wooden beams, that they believe were used to house animals.
The group of evangelical archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds none have ever been found above 11,000ft in the vicinity, Yeung said.
Advertisement
Quantcast
Local Turkish officials will ask the central government in Ankara to apply for UNESCO World Heritage status so the site can be protected while a major archaeological dig is conducted.
The biblical story says that God decided to flood the Earth after seeing how corrupt it was.
He then told Noah to build an ark and fill it with two of every animal species.
After the flood waters receded, the Bible says, the ark came to rest on a mountain.
Many believe that Mount Ararat, the highest point in the region, is where the ark and her inhabitants ran aground.
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2949640/Noahs-Ark-found-in-Turkey.html#ixzz0mJmCVe00
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2949640/Noahs-Ark-found-in-Turkey.html
(http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv352/sirjamesthegood/DoubleFacePalm.jpg?t=1272418048)
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There is a high possibility that there were antediluvian civilizations that were more advanced than us in our current state.
Quite true, it's been said that the Ark of the Covenant used radiation to defeat foes...I would go on...but I'm just waking up.
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There is a high possibility that there were antediluvian civilizations that were more advanced than us in our current state.
regardless...some cat didn't live for 900 years and build a boat large enough to throw 2 of every animal on...
besides they didn't have Ipods or xbox's so they really weren't shit :D
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Quite true, it's been said that the Ark of the Covenant used radiation to defeat foes...I would go on...but I'm just waking up.
Post more later on when you can. Always been interested in that stuff.
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how the fuck can you re-populate the world with 2 animals anyway ....there would be no genetic variability
it would be incest which is damaging to the survival of organisms
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Post more later on when you can. Always been interested in that stuff.
yeh, that stuff is interesting, particular the stuff about the ancient advanced civilizations
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who would have thought humans in the 2000s with so much information available to them could still attach themselves to this bullshit
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how the fuck can you re-populate the world with 2 animals anyway ....there would be no genetic variability
it would be incest which is damaging to the survival of organisms
That's why a lot of pedophiles are currently christian church members!
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That's why a lot of pedophiles are currently christian church members!
what the fuck are you even talking about., i didnt see any post inviting morons into this dialogue
we get it, you dont like christianity....your such a rebel and a freethinker ::) ::)
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yeh, that stuff is interesting, particular the stuff about the ancient advanced civilizations
Read anything by Michael Cremo? There are some YouTube "clips" of him doing some radio interviews that you can listen to - about 10 mins each. Very interesting and makes sense too.
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THE remains of Noah's Ark have been discovered 13,000ft up a Turkish mountain, it has been claimed.
A group of Chinese and Turkish evangelical explorers say they have found wooden remains on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey.
They claim carbon dating proves the relics are 4,800 years old — around the same time the ark was said to be afloat.
Noah's Ark
Biblical tale ... Noah filled the ark with two of each animal species
Yeung Wing-Cheung, from the Noah's Ark Ministries International research team, said: "It's not 100 per cent that it is Noah's Ark, but we think it is 99.9 per cent that this is it."
Dig
He said the structure contained several compartments, some with wooden beams, that they believe were used to house animals.
The group of evangelical archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds none have ever been found above 11,000ft in the vicinity, Yeung said.
Advertisement
Quantcast
Local Turkish officials will ask the central government in Ankara to apply for UNESCO World Heritage status so the site can be protected while a major archaeological dig is conducted.
The biblical story says that God decided to flood the Earth after seeing how corrupt it was.
He then told Noah to build an ark and fill it with two of every animal species.
After the flood waters receded, the Bible says, the ark came to rest on a mountain.
Many believe that Mount Ararat, the highest point in the region, is where the ark and her inhabitants ran aground.
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2949640/Noahs-Ark-found-in-Turkey.html#ixzz0mJmCVe00
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2949640/Noahs-Ark-found-in-Turkey.html
there is the key
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Read anything by Michael Cremo? There are some YouTube "clips" of him doing some radio interviews that you can listen to - about 10 mins each. Very interesting and makes sense too.
i'll check it out, what else it cool are stories about OOPARTS (out of place artifacts) from the past that have no explanation
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this stuff is pure comedy gold^^^keep um comin...
;D
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If you think the Ark was real you are a complete dumbass with no sense of reality. All the animals in the world on one boat in a few days. LOL. Keep christianing it up. Their trick is working you silly fool.
it was more than a few days it took them years to find all the animals
plus the ark was a huge boat probably bigger than a cruiseboat
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it was more than a few days it took them years to find all the animals
plus the ark was a huge boat probably bigger than a cruiseboat
LOL marty logged on
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it was more than a few days it took them years to find all the animals
plus the ark was a huge boat probably bigger than a cruiseboat
;D
I'm pretty sure The Coaches Ex Wife Peggy was as big as the Arc.
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i have nothing against those that believe..BUT THE ARK DOES NOT EXIST.. this claim has gone on for over 100 years.. each year someone claims that they actually went inside it and look around.. yet no photos of the inside emerge.. and when turkey sends those to substantiate the claim it cant be found.. if it existed it would be the biggest find in history and turkey would be rolling in the tourists.. yet they dont even believe it..
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i have nothing against those that believe..BUT THE ARK DOES NOT EXIST.. this claim has gone on for over 100 years.. each year someone claims that they actually went inside it and look around.. yet no photos of the inside emerge.. and when turkey sends those to substantiate the claim it cant be found.. if it existed it would be the biggest find in history and turkey would be rolling in the tourists.. yet they dont even believe it..
the wood could of rotted and decomposed into the earth
its not like they had a way to water proof the boats back then
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one can add to the argument for a deluge not just what is written in sumerian, egyptian, babylonian texts, the bible, mesoamerican indian lore, native american indian lore, east indian belief systems but physical evidence of fossilised sea urchins found in limestone formations in the middle of the sahara desert.
the evidence for a great flood is too overwhelming to ignore, whether you are an atheist or not.
LMAO, where did all this water come from? the water cycle should have approximately the same amount of water, there would have to be massive, massive amounts of water to cover the earth completely, its absurd.
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LMAO, where did all this water come from? the water cycle should have approximately the same amount of water, there would have to be massive, massive amounts of water to cover the earth completely, its absurd.
chuck missler thinks that maybe some of the water came from mars when the planets were close
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also, if adam and eve were the first two humans how did they populate the earth, wouldnt it be incest? wouldnt there offspring have to have sex with each other in order to produce offspring?
good times, this religion.
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also, if adam and eve were the first two humans how did they populate the earth, wouldnt it be incest? wouldnt there offspring have to have sex with each other in order to produce offspring?
good times, this religion.
regardless of religion thats the way it would have to happen
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the wood could of rotted and decomposed into the earth
its not like they had a way to water proof the boats back then
Not exactly true marty...
Thompson's water seal has been on the market for a long time... ;D
However, wood could have been preserved like Insects of years gone by in amber, etc..
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I know most of Chuck Misslers reasearch, can you find that?
www.khouse.com
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Sorry, I meant khouse.org
I've heard him speak many times at my church and sons school.
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Sorry, I meant khouse.org
I've heard him speak many times at my church and sons school.
How many hours per week do you dedicate to church, Functions, Activities, etc?
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Christianity is a horrible thing.
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Christianity is a horrible thing.
Yes i agree...
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Christianity is a horrible thing.
This is the understatement of the whole entire timeline of the universe.
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Which Ark finding is this? They say it is found or has been found for a long time.
Someone should build a replica and stash it somewhere for the lulz.
The monumental task of capturing every animal on the face of the Earth should make you a bit skeptical, but 2 of them should make you see BS. It is a nice story, but c'mon. Unless god had them all march into the arch ala the Lion King or something.
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**********NEWSFLASH**************
B-52 bomber,found on the moon !!
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I'm glad they found Noah's arcade, now I can bust a move where the games are fresh.
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Which Ark finding is this? They say it is found or has been found for a long time.
Someone should build a replica and stash it somewhere for the lulz.
The monumental task of capturing every animal on the face of the Earth should make you a bit skeptical, but 2 of them should make you see BS. It is a nice story, but c'mon. Unless god had them all march into the arch ala the Lion King or something.
Every known animal at that time in that region. And since most animals are subspecies, it's narrows it down immensely.
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Picture of Jesus found at the base of one of the pyramids. Dated about 2000 years old using carbon dating.
(http://notg.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/aleistercrowley1.jpg)
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exactly...Bigger than any boat ever made...bigger than an aircraft carrier...
But it's all moot...If you are delusional enough to think a guy lived for hundreds & hundreds and hundreds of years building said boat...well...There's no point in continuing any conversation on the subject because logic has already been thrown out the window...
Who claimed that the Ark was bigger than an aircraft carrier, or any boat ever made?
The Ark's dimensions were 300 cubits (length) X 50 cubits (breadth/width) X 30 cubits (height). With the average cubit being a foot an and half, that's roughly 450 ft long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Compared to more modern ships, the Ark was hardly "bigger than any boat ever made". The Queen Mary was over 1100 ft long; the Titanic exceeded 800 ft in length.
Are you now going to claim that ancient men could not build a vessel 450 ft long (notwithstanding the fact that the Ark was not a "boat" in the purest sense, because it was not meant to be navigated in water)?
ha ha...so you have some cat living for 900 years building a boat so big that even with todays modern technology would be near impossible...then gathering two of however you want to word it into said boat.then it rains simultaneously all over the entire world...And people wonder why they get laughed at for believing such drivel...
Let's see!! Ark: 450ft x 75ft x 45 ft; Titanic: 883ft x 93ft x 175 ft. Got any more foolishness to spout?
That's L Dawg for you, running his mouth with nary a clue as to what he speaks.....slapstick at its best.
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Every known animal at that time in that region. And since most animals are subspecies, it's narrows it down immensely.
so it was just a 900 year old dude and his dog...the story got blown out of proportion a bit then...That makes sense now...maybe on a boat the size of my Lincoln continental huh...
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Let's stop all this nonsense. Here's how it actually went down:
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who would have thought humans in the 2000s with so much information available to them could still attach themselves to this bullshit
it's a bodybuilding forum don't get your expectations too high ;D
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so it was just a 900 year old dude and his dog...the story got blown out of proportion a bit then...That makes sense now...maybe on a boat the size of my Lincoln continental huh...
I don't recall Noah being 900 years old, when the Ark was built. Geez, you would think someone flapping his beak about this in such a matter would actually know about what he speaks.
OOOPS!!! What am I saying? This is L Dawg.....never mind.
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If you think the Ark was real you are a complete dumbass with no sense of reality. All the animals in the world on one boat in a few days. LOL. Keep christianing it up. Their trick is working you silly fool.
You will not trick me, Lucifer!
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i have nothing against those that believe..BUT THE ARK DOES NOT EXIST.. this claim has gone on for over 100 years.. each year someone claims that they actually went inside it and look around.. yet no photos of the inside emerge.. and when turkey sends those to substantiate the claim it cant be found.. if it existed it would be the biggest find in history and turkey would be rolling in the tourists.. yet they dont even believe it..
This is a good point, and in fact, Turkey is no stranger to claiming to posses biblical artifacts for the sake of tourism profit. I went on a tour of Topkapi palace, (the old sultans palace) in Istanbul and they have all these crazy artifacts such, Mohamad's beard in a gold box, John the Baptist's arm in an enjeweled case, and even Moses's staff, just sitting behind a glass case. There were Turkish dudes with big machine guns gaurding all of this shit and the whole time I was thinking. "who verifies the authenticity of these artifiacts?". It all seemed liked a big scam to me...did I mention it cost $20 to get in, and all photography was strictly prohibited. In fact they even checked my digital camera on the way after I tried to snap a sneak shot of Moses's staff....My point is, if there was any validity at all to this Ark thing, the Turkish tourism council would be all over that like Devilsmile on a 15 year old.
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If you think the Ark was real you are a complete dumbass with no sense of reality. All the animals in the world on one boat in a few days. LOL. Keep christianing it up. Their trick is working you silly fool.
Nowhere is the claim made that all the animals in the world were on one boat in a few days. So, if you're looking for a silly fool, locate the nearest reflective surface and your search ends.
And, as was mentioned earlier, since several ancient cultures (many nowhere near each other geographically) have in the history that, at some point in this planet's history, life was destroyed on it via a global flood with only a handful of people surviving by building a vessel and storing themselves and animals on it, there's no trick involved. You're simply late to the party.
It is actually very believable there was a world wide flood. Practically every culture recounts a story of it in some manner or other. How could all these cultures be telling the same story even though they are separated by language barriers, regional barriers, etc.....
For there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [referring to the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.” - Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July–August 1905.
Interestingly enough, the ancient Chinese word for "boat" is comprised of three characters that literally translate as "eight-mouth-vessel" (with "mouth", meaning a mouth to feed).
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it's amazing that in the age of reason some people would assign any credibility to such a story - by the way I've got some land you might like to buy.
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it's amazing that in the age of reason some people would assign any credibility to such a story - by the way I've got some land you might like to buy.
No thanks! I have my own!!!
What "age of reason"? A bunch of atheists, who simply become more belligerrent (and, at times, boneheaded), hardly classifies as an "age of reason".
The fact remains that, across the globe, in cultures past and present, we have a universal consensus that, at some point in this planet's history, there was a global catastrophe, a flood, which destroyed life as we know it on this planet, excluding a handful of survivors, who built a vessels carrying animals on it (which is hardly the way one commonly seeks to survive an oncoming deluge).
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No thanks! I have my own!!!
What "age of reason"? A bunch of atheists, who simply become more belligerrent (and, at times, boneheaded), hardly classifies as an "age of reason".
The fact remains that, across the globe, in cultures past and present, we have a universal consensus that, at some point in this planet's history, there was a global catastrophe, a flood, which destroyed life as we know it on this planet, excluding a handful of survivors, who built a vessels carrying animals on it (which is hardly the way one commonly seeks to survive an oncoming deluge).
So prove it empirically. Right here. Right now.
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So prove it empirically. Right here. Right now.
Agreed! Where is this "fact"? ;D
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So prove it empirically. Right here. Right now.
(http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/30701.gif)
Wessels. QED.
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Wessels. QED.
Nucleee-er. Vere are dey?
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Nobody apart from Noah and his posse had a boat? Just sayin'. :P
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Agreed! Where is this "fact"? ;D
The fact that cultures, past and present, cite a global flood, destroying life on Earth?
Hmmm......
Some 270 flood stores have been recorded around the world. The literature discussing them is abundant. Their geographical distribution is not uniform, but is generally worldwide. They are most common in Asia, islands south of Asia, and the New World, being found from Tierra del Fuego to north of the Arctic Circle. They are more rare in Africa and Europe. Specific localities where they are especially noted include Egypt, Greece, Persia, Syria, Italy, Wales, Scandinavia, Russia, India, China, Mexico, Indonesia, New Guinea, Melanesia, Polynesia, Micronesia and Australia. Many scholars testify to the fact that accounts of a deluge are essentially coexistent with nearly all of the human family. What is more significant is their unusual abundance. Even those who do not believe in a worldwide deluge acknowledge this....
Stith Thompson has compiled and organized motifs in folk literature into a monumental five-volume treatise. This listing includes some 33,000 specific motifs, all of which have referenced accounts. The literature dealing with past world calamities shows a definite preponderance of comment concerning the deluge, both in terms of motifs and references. The number of references for specific causes of past world calamities in Thompson's Index is as follows: deluge 122, fire 19, continuous winter 6, large stones 2, misc. 4. It is noteworthy that common causes of calamities such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, pestilence, and drought are not listed. This also testifies to the remarkable commonness of flood traditions which have been present from the time of man's earliest writing to the present. One could hardly expect that accounts of major catastrophes from all over the world would be so selective of one theme of catastrophe if it had not been based on an actual worldwide event. This dominance strains the proposal that these accounts arose locally.
Whether one is a flood geologist, a no-flood geologist, or otherwise, the flood cannot be readily discarded as an incidental historical event. Furthermore, questions concerning this event are the bases of much of the controversy between creation and evolution. Creationists use this event to explain much of the data for which mainstream geologists propose geologic time and evolutionary trends in fossils. It turns out that this event has rather impressive non-biblical authentication. Any system of explanation for origins can ill afford to deny the deluge.
http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm (http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm)
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there was a period in remote history (like 10-11,000BC if i remember correctly) during which there was a significant rise in sea level and a great many coastal areas which probably did maintain civilizations were completely flooded....there are tons of underwater ruins around the world from india, japan, europe, lesser known ones in the caribbean region, etc...it was the memory of this event which was seared in the memory of humankind and passed down through the generations as the 'great flood' story (noahs ark was just one of the many)
(http://ambassadors.net/archives/issue14/underworld.jpg)
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Nobody apart from Noah and his posse had a boat? Just sayin'. :P
A mere boat doesn't save you from a major flood. Just sayin'.
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Nowhere is the claim made that all the animals in the world were on one boat in a few days.
Which would mean that the theory of evolution would have to exist because according to most christians, animals can't "turn" into another species. So if only a few animals were on board, where did all the other species of animals come from if apparently all were killed.
Interestingly enough, the ancient Chinese word for "boat" is comprised of three characters that literally translate as "eight-mouth-vessel" (with "mouth", meaning a mouth to feed).
So is the Chinese story right or the christian story? Was Noah chinese?
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there was a period in remote history (like 10-11,000BC if i remember correctly) during which there was a significant rise in sea level and a great many coastal areas which probably did maintain civilizations were completely flooded....there are tons of underwater ruins around the world from india, japan, europe, lesser known ones in the caribbean region, etc...it was the memory of this event which was seared in the memory of humankind and passed down through the generations as the 'great flood' story (noahs ark was just one of the many)
(http://ambassadors.net/archives/issue14/underworld.jpg)
And in how many of those are the would-be survivors of this Deluge (which they knew was coming in advance) instructed to build a structure to store themselves and certain amount of animals to survive this?
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http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm (http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm)
lol@ getting your data from a christian apologist site.
Try here instead http://www.archaeological.org/
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Nucleee-er. Vere are dey?
I dont understand.
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Which would mean that the theory of evolution would have to exist because according to most christians, animals can't "turn" into another species. So if only a few animals were on board, where did all the other species of animals come from if apparently all were killed.
Say that again!! I don't recall "most Christians" making such a claim. As was mentioned earlier, the term, "species" isn't used in Scripture at all. What Christians claim is that creatures reproduce after their own kinds. In other words, birds come from.....BIRDS, not dogs, cats, or fish.
So is the Chinese story right or the christian story? Was Noah chinese?
The Chinese would have come from Noah's descendants.
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The fact that cultures, past and present, cite a global flood, destroying life on Earth?
Hmmm......
Meh. You've cut-and-pasted an article that suggests that localized flooding has happened in areas around the world over time. That's it. ;)
/and anecdotal
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lol@ getting your data from a christian apologist site.
Try here instead http://www.archaeological.org/
Do these cultures have such flood accounts or don't they? If they do, you "lol" is quite pointless, as my statement stands.
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Meh. You've cut-and-pasted an article that suggests that localized flooding has happened in areas around the world over time. That's it. ;)
/and anecdotal
Who escapes localized flooding by building a structure, gathering animals, and floating it out, instead of heading for higher ground?
Floods tend to be instantaneous, hardly allowing for enough time to build anything, even remotetly close to the size of the Ark, to survive it.
And, it appears you missed the following, from Roth:
It is noteworthy that common causes of calamities such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, pestilence, and drought are not listed. This also testifies to the remarkable commonness of flood traditions which have been present from the time of man's earliest writing to the present. One could hardly expect that accounts of major catastrophes from all over the world would be so selective of one theme of catastrophe if it had not been based on an actual worldwide event. This dominance strains the proposal that these accounts arose locally.
And from Peet:
For there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [referring to the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America.
It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.
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And in how many of those are the would-be survivors of this Deluge (which they knew was coming in advance) instructed to build a structure to store themselves and certain amount of animals to survive this?
i forgot
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Say that again!! I don't recall "most Christians" making such a claim. As was mentioned earlier, the term, "species" isn't used in Scripture at all. What Christians claim is that creatures reproduce after their own kinds. In other words, birds come from.....BIRDS, not dogs, cats, or fish.
Pandas aren't found anywhere in the world (besides zoos) except China. Same with Koalas in Australia. Now unless the ark passed by these places and picked them up, and later deposited them back in China and Australia, since most would agree that a koala swimming to Australia from Mt. Ararat isn't a likely scenario, evolution is a more likely to have happened.
The Chinese would have come from Noah's descendants.
Lol, right. If that's the case then you're also saying that blacks came from Noah's children, as well as indians, etc. Nice story though.
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Do these cultures have such flood accounts or don't they? If they do, you "lol" is quite pointless, as my statement stands.
As the monkey doc says...it's anecdotal, it's heresay
Find some empirical evidence of a world wide flood around the suggested time period, provide your evidence to the scientific community to be reviewed and tested and then people may be more willing to accept the Noah story.
lol
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Noah's Ark is one of the most outrageous and ridiculous stories in the Bible.
Anyone who believes this story needs to have their head checked.
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Noah's Ark is one of the most outrageous and ridiculous stories in the Bible.
Anyone who believes this story needs to have their head checked.
QFT
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Pandas aren't found anywhere in the world (besides zoos) except China. Same with Koalas in Australia. Now unless the ark passed by these places and picked them up, and later deposited them back in China and Australia, since most would agree that a koala swimming to Australia from Mt. Ararat isn't a likely scenario, evolution is a more likely to have happened.
You make two rather strange assumptions:
One, that the Earth's geographical makeup then is exactly as it is now.
Two, that the Flood was cause solely by rainfall, which is clearly not the case, according to Scripture.
Lol, right. If that's the case then you're also saying that blacks came from Noah's children, as well as indians, etc. Nice story though.
And, this is a problem because.....
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Noah's Ark is one of the most outrageous and ridiculous stories in the Bible.
Anyone who believes this story needs to have their head checked.
D'oh. Well, I still hope that somewhere, somehow someone can turn water into wine. I have to believe in that one.
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As the monkey doc says...it's anecdotal, it's heresay
Find some empirical evidence of a world wide flood around the suggested time period, provide your evidence to the scientific community to be reviewed and tested and then people may be more willing to accept the Noah story.
lol
People already accept the "Noah story" and, as stated earlier, various cultures worldwide cite a global Flood.
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You make two rather strange assumptions:
One, that the Earth's geographical makeup then is exactly as it is now.
Two, that the Flood was cause solely by rainfall, which is clearly not the case, according to Scripture.
And, this is a problem because.....
Clown.
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anyone who takes the fictional bible book seriously is a complete and utter retard. that is all.
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D'oh. Well, I still hope that somewhere, somehow someone can turn water into wine. I have to believe in that one.
Jesus was quite the life of the party.
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You make two rather strange assumptions:
One, that the Earth's geographical makeup then is exactly as it is now.
Taking today's actual science into consideration, plate movement is causing San Diego to move up to San Francisco at about a rate of 3-6 inches per year. Now unless Australia somehow broke off at break neck speed and settled in less than 6,000-10,000 years (which many christian "scientists" agree how old the Earth is), then Australia would only be about 3,000-5,000 ft from Mt. Ararat. Yeah, that sounds about right. ::).
Two, that the Flood was cause solely by rainfall, which is clearly not the case, according to Scripture.
Wait, if it rained 40 days and 40 nights in ANY PART of the world, wouldn't that area flood? Just a week's worth of rain in any area causes flooding. But of course scripture gets deciphered a little more differently when science actually proves that what was stated is wrong. ::)
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People already accept the "Noah story" and, as stated earlier, various cultures worldwide cite a global Flood.
If there was a global flood then where did all the water go to allow the land to resurface? How did Noah manage to feed these animals? What about the carnivores vs. herbivores? Don't you think the lion and or tigers would have eaten half of the animals? Also if for example two dogs were saved. How did you end up with all sorts of breeds in such a short amount of time? I don't see how two labs could make a chihuaha.
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People already accept the "Noah story" and, as stated earlier, various cultures worldwide cite a global Flood.
Correction: Many cultures have their own flood stories. Which makes the bible story unreliable because if other cultures wrote about them that had no ties to the middle east at the time, Aztecs for example, there were people alive besides noah and his clan.
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Taking today's actual science into consideration, plate movement is causing San Diego to move up to San Francisco at about a rate of 3-6 inches per year. Now unless Australia somehow broke off at break neck speed and settled in less than 6,000-10,000 years (which many christian "scientists" agree how old the Earth is), then Australia would only be about 3,000-5,000 ft from Mt. Ararat. Yeah, that sounds about right. ::).
Keywords: "Today's actual science". You are making the gigantic assumption that this rate has been maintained constantly, for millienia on end, without major fluxuation.
Wait, if it rained 40 days and 40 nights in ANY PART of the world, wouldn't that area flood? Just a week's worth of rain in any area causes flooding. But of course scripture gets deciphered a little more differently when science actually proves that what was stated is wrong. ::)
What are you talking about? Scripture never suggests, as you have, that the Flood was due solely to rainfall. So, your claim of how Scripture gets deciphered is a wee bit hollow.
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http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/04/27/2280442.aspx
Is there any evidence of a catastrophic flood that rose to near the top of Ararat 4,800 years ago?
"We know what's going on with Turkey archaeologically at that time, and there's no major interruption in the culture," Zimansky observed.
"There's not enough H2O in the world to get an ark that high up a mountain," Kuniholm said.
Kuniholm has had to deal with repeated claims from ark-hunters, including claims based on purported discoveries of ancient wood, and it sounds as if he's starting to get sick of it. He expects the latest report will end up in his thick file of ark discoveries that end up going nowhere.
"These guys have already gotten the answer worked out ahead of time," he said, "and then they go out to prove it."
Theist scientific method = We know the conclusion, now let's make the data fit.
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You are making the gigantic assumption that this rate has been maintained constantly, for millienia on end, without major fluxuation.
You = the majority of the scientific community
Glad you're here to correct them with zero evidence.
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If there was a global flood then where did all the water go to allow the land to resurface? How did Noah manage to feed these animals? What about the carnivores vs. herbivores? Don't you think the lion and or tigers would have eaten half of the animals? Also if for example two dogs were saved. How did you end up with all sorts of breeds in such a short amount of time? I don't see how two labs could make a chihuaha.
No, no no you don't get it. MCWAY is a >christian<. Logic doesn't apply at all here.
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Correction: Many cultures have their own flood stories. Which makes the bible story unreliable because if other cultures wrote about them that had no ties to the middle east at the time, Aztecs for example, there were people alive besides noah and his clan.
Again, as noted by Roth and Peet (among others), the centralized theme is that, at a certain point in Earth's history, a global flood destroyed life on the planet, excluding a handful of survivors, who built a vessel and store themselves and animals on it.
The fact that this central theme exists WITHIN CULTURES with no ties to the Middle East is the point those men made, when citing their statements.
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So is the Chinese story right or the christian story? Was Noah chinese?
I doubt the kanji MCWAY is talking about is derived from the literal meaning of its parts anyway, 8 mouths to feed in a vessel. Almost none of the compound pictographs I've seen work that way. Easy mnemonics like that are great when you're trying to memorize 2000 of the damn things (no, I did not) but their actual evolution invariably involves borrowed and associated meanings, bizarre syntheses, culturally unique ideas, as well as purely phonetic elements. That's the Jap anyway. I've heard the Chinese is worse.
Even if it's not Noah related, it seems to make good sense that 8 hungry guys would go out fishing in a boat so they could feed their faces, and maybe that's actually the case. Symbols like this are everywhere tho and you think the origin is as plain as day. Then you read the roundabout genealogy of this seemingly obvious picture and say fuck it it's 8 hungry guys gone fishing.
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If the Bible says the universe is 6,000 years old, how are we able to see galaxies billions of light years distant?
MMMmm, pretty sure it was the earth that was 6000 years old, not the universe.
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I doubt the kanji MCWAY is talking about is derived from the literal meaning of its parts anyway, 8 mouths to feed in a vessel. Almost none of the compound pictographs I've seen work that way. Easy mnemonics like that are great when you're trying to memorize 2000 of the damn things (no, I did not) but their actual evolution invariably involves borrowed and associated meanings, bizarre syntheses, culturally unique ideas, as well as purely phonetic elements. That's the Jap anyway. I've heard the Chinese is worse.
Even if it's not Noah related, it seems to make good sense that 8 hungry guys would go out fishing in a boat so they could feed their faces, and maybe that's actually the case. Symbols like this are everywhere tho and you think the origin is as plain as day. Then you read the roundabout genealogy of this seemingly obvious picture and say fuck it it's 8 hungry guys gone fishing.
Good point. But, when such appears in an Oriental account, regarding a global flood, which is awfully similar to a Hebrew account, involving 8 people and a global flood, I don't think you can easily mark that off as 8 guys going fishing.
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If the Bible says the universe is 6,000 years old, how are we able to see galaxies billions of light years distant?
The Bible gives no date for the age of the universe (or even the Earth). If I recall correctly, that "6,000" number came from a scholar who calculated the age of the planet by using Biblical geneaologies, starting (I think) from King Nebuchadnezzar and worked his way backwards.
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fuck off mcgay, christian f.aggot
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fuck off mcgay, christian f.aggot
Great intelligent answer, bet you're a liberal as well?
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Jesus was quite the life of the party.
I could go with the whole water into wine thing.
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fuck off mcgay, christian f.aggot
Mr. Belding would have sent you to suspension for that post.
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Keywords: "Today's actual science". You are making the gigantic assumption that this rate has been maintained constantly, for millienia on end, without major fluxuation.
Not an assumption, it's evidence that proves although the Earth is still changing and at such a slow rate that early written history, especially since biological and geological science wasn't really intergraded as a study during biblical times, made the assumption since it had no real reference point. How can you deny that the probability of Earth being much older than 10,000
is not plausible when past history has shown that in the likelihood it is? And if the fluxuation that you speak of happened, then where's the recorded documentation from the bible for it?
What are you talking about? Scripture never suggests, as you have, that the Flood was due solely to rainfall. So, your claim of how Scripture gets deciphered is a wee bit hollow.
Um, according to the KING JAMES VERSION it does:
4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
6And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. ::)
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Good point. But, when such appears in an Oriental account, regarding a global flood, which is awfully similar to a Hebrew account, involving 8 people and a global flood, I don't think you can easily mark that off as 8 guys going fishing.
there is not enough water, the water cycle would be consistent with past times, ie wether frozen, precipatated or still there, the water amounts would be roughly the same. The rain would have to come from water on the surface, and so on.
Also, the carnivores would have to eat other animals, how did this work out?
how did he get other animals like others have posted?
you are avoiding the questions, this story is absolutely ridiculous, tremendously absurd beyond belief. The fact that he is cited as 900 years old is fucking retarded. Everyone if allowed to age beyond 100 would have parkison's and alzheimers, this man somehow avoided all disease and lived almost 900% longer then any recorded human with the worst medical care you could imagine.
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Cristians are told a story and they beleive it, all this is based on their "faith". There doesn't need to be any scientific evidence, basically just a few stories from different cultures about a huge flood, and some survivors to tell the tale = boom world wide flood, and Noah saved us all, no arguement can sway them, it's the truth. To question is is to question their "faith" so they blindly defend it to the death as fact. Don't blame or flame Marty, he has been brainwashed and is beyond reason. I wonder if he was ever a Catholic altar boy?
Of course the logistics of an arc, getting the animals, etc etc is what most skeptics point to, but for me I gotta think that the world was a really small place back then, no books, maps, internetz, etc. Perhaps Noah actually existed, and perhaps where Noah was there was a huge flood, perhaps he did build a boat and got some animals on it, he may have even got every animal that he thought existed at the time, maybe 50 pairs of animals cause he didn't know any better. Without books, maps etc how was he to know there were millions of species of animals. So he waited for the flood to end, he saved the world, or so he thought, and so it was written. 100 animals turned into two of every animal, 90 days turned into 900 years, a 100 square mile flood turned into a global flood. I mean we know how much a story can change in a week, your buddie's 12" fish turns into Moby Dick after a couple beers, imagine what happens when someone writes a holy book hundreds / thousands of years after the fact......
Lets say this same thing happened a few other places, hence the folklore about the global flood. How the hell did they know there was a global flood, do you think they had any idea on the size of earth, they only knew as far as they could walk or see. Meanwhile, while he is floating on his boat with 100 animals that he thinks are the only animals in the world at the time, on the other side of the planet, in every other country that he didn't know existed, there was no flood, the natives in north america (or whereever) are hunting as if nothing is going on.
I don't know what the hell happened. I do know that the churches fool their followers with "faith" to mindlessly control them get them to hand over their money so the church can buy land, and molest their children.
When you stop beleiving in fairty tales, imaginary men in the sky, fake books etc your world opens up, my hope is that people like Marty are able to come to this realization sooner then later so they can enjoy the rest of their lives, rather then being bound by a "faith" that restricts free thinking and rational thought.
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Good point. But, when such appears in an Oriental account, regarding a global flood, which is awfully similar to a Hebrew account, involving 8 people and a global flood, I don't think you can easily mark that off as 8 guys going fishing.
Ya, but I'm not talking about floods or fishing. Just saying that the derivation of kanji symbols in general can be deceptively involved and have little to do with the literal meaning of its parts, such as mouths, vehicles, thread, road, etc. I'm not venturing an opinion on either side of the great flood debate. I have no dog in this race.
Edit: I'm reminded of a statue in Japan of a famous dog named Hachi Ko (Eight Mouths). He would go to the station and meet his master's train every day after work. Well, Hachi Ko's owner died but the dog kept going to the station at the same time every single day to meet the train, and he did it without fail for something like 10 years. Nothing to do with the thread but I always liked that story.
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Great intelligent answer, bet you're a liberal as well?
haha, no i hate liberals with a passion, even more than the christians. i lean more right than left, but zealot christians who think they are intelligent really piss me off.
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there is not enough water, the water cycle would be consistent with past times, ie wether frozen, precipatated or still there, the water amounts would be roughly the same. The rain would have to come from water on the surface, and so on.
Unless god pissed on the world for forty days and nights!
Also, the carnivores would have to eat other animals, how did this work out?
They ate soy diets for those forty days and nights.
how did he get other animals like others have posted?
The animals miraculously commuted from other continents to join in.
you are avoiding the questions, this story is absolutely ridiculous, tremendously absurd beyond belief. The fact that he is cited as 900 years old is fucking retarded. Everyone if allowed to age beyond 100 would have parkison's and alzheimers, this man somehow avoided all disease and lived almost 900% longer then any recorded human with the worst medical care you could imagine.
Lol, we have the technology today to achieve a lifespan of 100 years. 900 isn't out of the question. ;)
You know by now that "faith" doesn't require evidence. What's perplexing to me is that many christians I know of are intelligent logical people when it comes to everyday life, but are total idiots when it comes to logically explaining their belief in the bible.
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there was a period in remote history (like 10-11,000BC if i remember correctly) during which there was a significant rise in sea level and a great many coastal areas which probably did maintain civilizations were completely flooded....there are tons of underwater ruins around the world from india, japan, europe, lesser known ones in the caribbean region, etc...it was the memory of this event which was seared in the memory of humankind and passed down through the generations as the 'great flood' story (noahs ark was just one of the many)
(http://ambassadors.net/archives/issue14/underworld.jpg)
this post = /thread , why are you guys still arguing?
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If you think the Ark was real you are a complete dumbass with no sense of reality. All the animals in the world on one boat in a few days. LOL. Keep christianing it up. Their trick is working you silly fool.
I like you.
It's amazing people believe this shit.
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how large must this boat be in order to support elephants, alligators, giraffes, gorillas, polar bears, rhinoceros' and komodo dragons?
I don't remember my bible stories to a T anymore but I'll give it my best shot ...haven't been to CCD class since I was in elementary school.
Take the Noah's ark for example. This boat in the Middle East somewhere had to have been bigger than the Titanic MADE OF WOOD and to take every set of animals in the world on it. How the fuck are you going to get polar bears from the north pole, kangaroos from Australia...or any animal from Australia. A moose from north America...etc. ????
Someone please try to convince me how this was possible?
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Great intelligent answer, bet you're a liberal as well?
Like Jesus?
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this post = /thread , why are you guys still arguing?
You serious? Are you saying that there was one giant flood that covered all of these cities on different continents in water?
Where would all of this water come from at once?
The rise in sea levels due to ice melting from the last ice age around 10K years ago is probably a better explanation.
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this post = /thread , why are you guys still arguing?
I read a book by this clown about the Ark of the Covenant. All cobbled-together conjecture, some rough history and plenty of conspiracy. I remember at the end he said it was in a church in Ethiopia, but the guy who looked after the church wouldn't let anyone inside to see it. TA-DA! Case solved! Probably sold millions, to people like Coach and McWay.
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The Bible gives no date for the age of the universe (or even the Earth). If I recall correctly, that "6,000" number came from a scholar who calculated the age of the planet by using Biblical geneaologies, starting (I think) from King Nebuchadnezzar and worked his way backwards.
Book of Genesis says everything was created in a week including man (heavens, earth, beasts, man). The New Testament lists the genealogies from Adam to Jesus. With this reasoning, it's approximated to be around 6 thousand years with most biblical scholars.
You can argue the semantics on what seven days actually means, but then what is to be taken figuratively and literally in the Bible? It's all arbitrary and no matter what stance you take (if you believe in the book) there will be an inevitable personal bias and interpretation.
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Q: Biggest flaw of the bible?
A: It was written by man.
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LOL @ tiny brained religious nimwits trying to defend a fairy tale out of the #1 Book Of Contradictions to ever exist.
Is it any wonder why today's advancements are grounded in science and not religion?
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Is it any wonder why today's advancements are grounded in science and not religion?
One of my biggest gripes with organized religion is that some groups seek to reverse that statement.
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A quote I like......... "Faith is a weakness. Faith is the excuse we give ourselves to believe something when there is no good reason to. Faith actively stands in the way of looking for evidence and seeking further knowledge. Instead of faith, let us use reasonable expectation based on observation, and use hope for the things we cannot control."
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I read a book by this clown about the Ark of the Covenant. All cobbled-together conjecture, some rough history and plenty of conspiracy. I remember at the end he said it was in a church in Ethiopia, but the guy who looked after the church wouldn't let anyone inside to see it. TA-DA! Case solved! Probably sold millions, to people like Coach and McWay.
Yeah, allegedly it's in Ethiopia. It has been said that the Ark of the Covenant is "powered" by white powered gold :-\
well, anyway it has been said that the Ark produced radiation, and when it was used the description of the effects on the armies it was used on was that it made them "very, very sick" :-\
which is what happens when you come into contact with radiation. Now, when the Ark was brought out to be used, they had to wear special outfits as to not be affected by "the radiation".
Where it is supposed to be at, the caretakers wear "special outfits" to not be affected by it. The one outsider who did see it has allegedly "radiation" burns...
Believe what you want, but it also seems that Hercules was based on a real person...
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Not an assumption, it's evidence that proves although the Earth is still changing and at such a slow rate that early written history, especially since biological and geological science wasn't really intergraded as a study during biblical times, made the assumption since it had no real reference point. How can you deny that the probability of Earth being much older than 10,000
is not plausible when past history has shown that in the likelihood it is? And if the fluxuation that you speak of happened, then where's the recorded documentation from the bible for it? Um, according to the KING JAMES VERSION it does:
4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
6And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. ::)
It also says (had you gone down a few more verses to number 11), In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Therefore, according to Scripture, The Flood was not causes SOLELY by rainfall, as I'd said earlier.
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I don't remember my bible stories to a T anymore but I'll give it my best shot ...haven't been to CCD class since I was in elementary school.
Take the Noah's ark for example. This boat in the Middle East somewhere had to have been bigger than the Titanic MADE OF WOOD and to take every set of animals in the world on it. How the fuck are you going to get polar bears from the north pole, kangaroos from Australia...or any animal from Australia. A moose from north America...etc. ????
Someone please try to convince me how this was possible?
Bigger than the Titanic? Ummm.....I could have sworn that I'd posted earlier the dimensions of the Ark vs. that of the Titanic, namely (length, breadth, height):
Ark: 450 ft x 75 ft x 45 ft
Titanic: 883 ft x 93 ft x 175 ft
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^^^I see what you did there......you are an apologetic, you use logical sounding arguments to rationalize your assertions all the while you are aware that the underlying assertion is irrational. Your arguement I'm sure is completely beleiveable to the unaware and / or the gullible, so which are you?
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If there is is a god, and he sent his son to start the kingdom of god, then how do we explain the millions of deaths caused by religion, how do you explain disease, cancer, etc. Oh right, god is too busy accepting thanks from black sporting athletes to address any of those issues……. Question: How can evil exist with a good and omnipotent god? And would said "omnipotent" creator make a mistake, and then REPENT for it. (that’s the whole Noah and the flood story in a nutshell)
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Oh and I guess, why would he bother getting noah to do all this if he could just create it all over again?
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^^^I see what you did there......you are an apologetic, you use logical sounding arguments to rationalize your assertions all the while you are aware that the underlying assertion is irrational. Your arguement I'm sure is completely beleiveable to the unaware and / or the gullible, so which are you?
She is all of the above.
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Oh and I guess, why would he bother getting noah to do all this if he could just create it all over again?
Because... Well I mean.... You see, this is how you atheists try to...... And then he would......
The Bible says..... but...... so when it came to pass.......
Which deflection and smoke screen excuse would you like to hear first?
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Isn't that the point MCWay... There's not enough room on the Titanic for 2 of every kind of animal, much less this supposed Ark.
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^^^I see what you did there......you are an apologetic, you use logical sounding arguments to rationalize your assertions all the while you are aware that the underlying assertion is irrational. Your arguement I'm sure is completely beleiveable to the unaware and / or the gullible, so which are you?
Neither!! The claim has been made twice that somehow the Ark had to be bigger than any modern ship of recent memory. Yet, we have the dimensions of one mentioned modern ship, shown to actually be LARGER than the Ark.
If there is is a god, and he sent his son to start the kingdom of god, then how do we explain the millions of deaths caused by religion, how do you explain disease, cancer, etc. Oh right, god is too busy accepting thanks from black sporting athletes to address any of those issues……. Question: How can evil exist with a good and omnipotent god? And would said "omnipotent" creator make a mistake, and then REPENT for it. (that’s the whole Noah and the flood story in a nutshell)
The same reason we esplain millions MORE deaths, caused by godless regimes such as those of Stalin and Mao, whose empires each hacked up more bodies in year than the Crusaders did in a decade: Power, greed, and wanting to impose one's will onto another.
As for evil existing with a good and omnipotent God, that can be summed up in two words: FREE WILL.
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I'm glad you brought up free will. Question: If God created me in his image, he gave me reasoning skills, questioning, and free will. If I use these skills and my free will to not believe, not follow the church, and live my life in a moral fashion outside the confines of religion, why would he punish me for that, he made me this way?
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Isn't that the point MCWay... There's not enough room on the Titanic for 2 of every kind of animal, much less this supposed Ark.
You can't use logic against zealots bro.
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Like Homer said in a recent Simpsons episode, faith is for things that don't exist.
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I'm glad you brought up free will. Question: If God created me in his image, he gave me reasoning skills, questioning, and free will. If I use these skills and my free will to not believe, not follow the church, and live my life in a moral fashion outside the confines of religion, why would he punish me for that, he made me this way?
Because it's not free will, but an ultimatum. Free will is when you have an unconstrained condition to make a decision. In god's case, if you "decide" not to follow, you burn in hell for eternity. This means that there is a strained condition to the decision.
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Well then if it's not the ark, they sure found something 13000ft on top of a mountain......
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Because it's not free will, but an ultimatum. Free will is when you have an unconstrained condition to make a decision. In god's case, if you "decide" not to follow, you burn in hell for eternity. This means that there is a strained condition to the decision.
Exactly, so really god is a tyrant in a saviors clothing, I will give you free will, but if you don't follow me you will burn. Sounds like a good method to use on kids, you can have whaterver you want to eat, but if you don't eat the brocolli I will beat you.............
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Isn't that the point MCWay... There's not enough room on the Titanic for 2 of every kind of animal, much less this supposed Ark.
Not really!! The issue is how many animals would have had to be onboard the Ark. Given the Ark’s volume and (according to Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study) if one equated the Biblical term “kind” to the taxonomic category of “genus”, the Ark would have carried approximately 16,000 animals stored within it. Others have cited numbers around 35,000. Both numbers pose no issue, regarding the Ark's capacity.
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Can you picture the TONS of shit that 2 animals from each species would do in 40 days and 40 night ? :o
And all of that on a boat of 450 ft x 75 ft x 45 ft ::)... Don't know if Noah really existed, but if he did he must have been the precursor of the "2 girl 1 cup" kind of stuff :-X
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Coach, did you notice a couple of things?
"..They failed to reveal the location of their find or produce photographs of the exterior of the site."
other good points.
'If floodwaters covered Eurasia 12,000ft deep in 2,800 BC, how did the complex societies of Egypt and Mesopotamia, already many centuries old, keep right on regardless? And dating Noah's Flood to 2,800 BC is arbitrary anyway...'
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I'm glad you brought up free will. Question: If God created me in his image, he gave me reasoning skills, questioning, and free will. If I use these skills and my free will to not believe, not follow the church, and live my life in a moral fashion outside the confines of religion, why would he punish me for that, he made me this way?
The problem with free will is simple. If there isn't free will in heaven for the "saints" when they die, then why did God need to test us with it on earth, since without it in heaven we'd all obey God anyway? If there is no free will in heaven for the "saints" when they die, then how did Satan gain free will while in heaven which he purportedly used to rebel? If free will is so valuable, then why would God reward the "saints" in heaven by taking it away from them, but punish "sinners" in hell by letting them keep it ?
A Supreme Being that is all powerful doesn't need to be worshipped. If he wanted to be worshipped then he would simply make people worship him. Humans, animals, plants, etc... Which I guess there will be no animals or plants in heaven since they do not worship.
Worship is nothing more than a by product of insecurities. There is this imaginary all powerful being that zealots worship for no other reason except they are insecure and feel the need to force attention on this imaginary being in order to feel as though they are accepted as part him.
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Can you picture the TONS of shit that 2 animals from each species would do in 40 days and 40 night ? :o
And all of that on a boat of 450 ft x 75 ft x 45 ft ::)... Don't know if Noah really existed, but if he did he must have been the precursor of the "2 girl 1 cup" kind of stuff :-X
How many species of animals do you suppose roamed the earth that long ago? As many as there is now?
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As for evil existing with a good and omnipotent God, that can be summed up in two words: FREE WILL.
But if god is omnipotent, then would said "omnipotent" creator make a mistake, and then REPENT for it. If he really is omnipotent he could have just fixed everything. If the reason he couldn't fix everything without the flood then he is no omnipotent, and that opens up a whole new can of worms..........
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Coach, did you notice a couple of things?
"..They failed to reveal the location of their find or produce photographs of the exterior of the site."
other good points.
'If floodwaters covered Eurasia 12,000ft deep in 2,800 BC, how did the complex societies of Egypt and Mesopotamia, already many centuries old, keep right on regardless? And dating Noah's Flood to 2,800 BC is arbitrary anyway...'
I couldn't even understand what they were saying, could you?
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Worship is nothing more than a by product of insecurities. There is this imaginary all powerful being that zealots worship for no other reason except they are insecure and feel the need to force attention on this imaginary being in order to feel as though they are accepted as part him.
We are on exactly the same page Lurker.
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How many species of animals do you suppose roamed the earth that long ago? As many as there is now?
epic irrational arguement
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How many species of animals do you suppose roamed the earth that long ago? As many as there is now?
Are you really trying to fit logic and common sense into a age old myth? Get a grip.
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I couldn't even understand what they were saying, could you?
What's that got to do with my previous post?
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Exactly, so really god is a tyrant in a saviors clothing,
Exactly. The hypocrisy of it all is that Christians themselves admit that God is more cruel to them than Satan.
Your kid died? Oh... God needed an angel. As if he hasn't gotten millions of them already, he needed a 4 year old. Never do they say "That damn Satan took my child from me".
You got cancer? How many times do you hear them claim "Ohhh... Satan is behind this and attacking me?" None. Instead it is always "God is testing me".
Your parents get killed in a car crash or leave you an orphan? You have a rare blood disease? Born retarded? Is it Satan being evil and crafty? No, it is always "God works in mysterious ways.."
Bunch of insecure tards.
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Not really!! The issue is how many animals would have had to be onboard the Ark. Given the Ark’s volume and (according to Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study) if one equated the Biblical term “kind” to the taxonomic category of “genus”, the Ark would have carried approximately 16,000 animals stored within it. Others have cited numbers around 35,000. Both numbers pose no issue, regarding the Ark's capacity.
Now feed those 16,000 animals. Let's say it takes 30 seconds to feed one. So that 2 animals per minute. That's 8,000 minutes or roughly 5.55 days to just give them ONE FEEDING. And that's without a break. ::)
Don't you see how ridiculous this is?
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I like logic. Your kid died? I guess he shouldn't have eaten that poison. You got cancer? I guess some of your cells mutated due to a defect in your genes. I guess it is just easier to blame it one the man upstairs then face reality.
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How many species of animals do you suppose roamed the earth that long ago? As many as there is now?
Well let's see... there were the dinosaurs... oh wait.. Christians deny they existed too.
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But if god is omnipotent, then would said "omnipotent" creator make a mistake, and then REPENT for it. If he really is omnipotent he could have just fixed everything. If the reason he couldn't fix everything without the flood then he is no omnipotent, and that opens up a whole new can of worms..........
Lol, if he really was omnipotent, he would have seen satan betraying him and certainly could have prevented evil. ::)
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I'm glad you brought up free will. Question: If God created me in his image, he gave me reasoning skills, questioning, and free will. If I use these skills and my free will to not believe, not follow the church, and live my life in a moral fashion outside the confines of religion, why would he punish me for that, he made me this way?
That brings up another subject, that's been addressed elsewhere: "Moral" according to WHOSE standards? Who's making the rules, here?
If you choose not to believe or follow His instructions, He has no reason to reward you (or at least, spare you of the consequences of your actions).
You don't have to obey your boss at work, either. Then again, your boss doesn't have to reward your disobedience with a paycheck.
Because it's not free will, but an ultimatum. Free will is when you have an unconstrained condition to make a decision. In god's case, if you "decide" not to follow, you burn in hell for eternity. This means that there is a strained condition to the decision.
Not quite!! Free will means you get to make the decision and endure whatever consequences are associated with such a decision, one way or the other. Were God to leave mankind to his own devices, he would simply do what he does now and what he did long ago: Destroy himself.
Then come the complaints of why God doesn't do something about this, that, or the other.
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Well let's see... there were the dinosaurs... oh wait.. Christians deny they existed too.
Oh no... They say that they roamed the earth WITH man now.
(http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/files/2009/06/sara-1.jpg)
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I like logic. Your kid died? I guess he shouldn't have eaten that poison. You got cancer? I guess some of your cells mutated due to a defect in your genes. I guess it is just easier to blame it one the man upstairs then face reality.
When things are going your way..."God is great".
When things are going downhill for you.."God is testing me"
What the fuck kind of test is it for those kids in Calcutta? What about those miners? Tsunami victims?
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Well let's see... there were the dinosaurs... oh wait.. Christians deny they existed too.
Oh hell no! They were on the ark too.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-ark1.html
::)
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Religion is a hand me down preserved from generation to generation. It's built upon kind of like folklore, there is no fact, only heresay. That is why the local church of 100 10 years ago is still the local church of about 100 adults. If there was any fact / evidence on the existance of god or all these "stories the church would be growing. What we need to do is avoid educating the mcway's and coaches of the world and focus on the kids, get a strict no god course in all schools so we can raise a generation of rational / logical human beings. Perhaps at some point we can all live together...........
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When is why Christianity is on the decline in this country. For the better too.
Let's face it. Penicillin has saved more people than Jesus and preachers have.
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"Moral" according to WHOSE standards? Who's making the rules, here?
It doesn't matter, if I follow all morals according to god, but do not beleive or do not accept Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior I will burn for eternity in hell. More or less.
No matter if you are a good person, or are equally devout in another faith. Phew, good thing you were born where you were and had parents who were sheep in the heard otherwise you would have been born straight into hell mcway......
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Not quite!! Free will means you get to make the decision and endure whatever consequences are associated with such a decision, one way or the other. Were God to leave mankind to his own devices, he would simply do what he does now and what he did long ago: Destroy himself.
Then come the complaints of why God doesn't do something about this, that, or the other.
Uh no.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free+will
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
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That brings up another subject, that's been addressed elsewhere: "Moral" according to WHOSE standards? Who's making the rules, here?
If you choose not to believe or follow His instructions, He has no reason to reward you (or at least, spare you of the consequences of your actions).
You don't have to obey your boss at work, either. Then again, your boss doesn't have to reward your disobedience with a paycheck.
The "morals" during that time period were dictated by Kings, emperors, etc. Which is why punishment for not listening to their laws, which are similar to god's laws (worship, reverence,etc.) mirrored that of the scripture in the old testament.
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Religion is a hand me down preserved from generation to generation. It's built upon kind of like folklore, there is no fact, only heresay. That is why the local church of 100 10 years ago is still the local church of about 100 adults. If there was any fact / evidence on the existance of god or all these "stories the church would be growing. What we need to do is avoid educating the mcway's and coaches of the world and focus on the kids, get a strict no god course in all schools so we can raise a generation of rational / logical human beings. Perhaps at some point we can all live together...........
That's not true... I don't think it's right to say "no god"... and deny the fact that there are many people who believe in certain things.
I think it's best to educate all kids about everything... expose them. If they choose to believe, that's on them.
My son doesn't really believe, but it's because he questions things... He's an inquisitive guy.
I grew up in a catholic school environment, but I inquired about things and require answers.
Religion was good before society evolved, but now, we're a much more rational scientific group... We don't need "religion" anymore.
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I'm glad you brought up free will. Question: If God created me in his image, he gave me reasoning skills, questioning, and free will. If I use these skills and my free will to not believe, not follow the church, and live my life in a moral fashion outside the confines of religion, why would he punish me for that, he made me this way?
Hi double a ron!
Even believers have very hard times in life....is that what kind of punishment you are talking about? Or is the punishment to which you are referring that according to the bible, unbelievers will not be in heaven?
If it's the latter, since you don't want to be with the God of the bible, do you really think it's punishment that you won't spend eternity with Him?
Also just to be clear according to the bible "following the church" and "[living your] life in a moral fashion" is not what gets you into heaven to spend eternity with God. It's accepting (by faith/belief) the free gift of forgiveness He provides through belief/acceptance in Christ as Savior.
EPH 2:8,9: You are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast.
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Religion was good before society evolved, but now, we're a much more rational scientific group... We don't need "religion" anymore.
And just think what we could with the trillions of dollars in assets and income that Western Christians and churches control if we ended religion...... Oh what, you all forgot that religion is a business?
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When things are going your way..."God is great".
When things are going downhill for you.."God is testing me"
What the fuck kind of test is it for those kids in Calcutta? What about those miners? Tsunami victims?
And that’s about as ridiculous as rants from non-believers, such as:
When people do bad thing and God seemingly does nothing: “Why doesn’t God do something about” this, that or the other?
Once He does intervene and renders judgment, then it becomes, “Oh why is God so mean, why didn’t He do it this way or that way?”
Make up your mind, here.
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And just think what we could with the trillions of dollars in assets and income that Western Christians and churches control if we ended religion...... Oh what, you all forgot that religion is a business?
Who could forget that?
(http://www.tillhecomes.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/megachurch.jpg)
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And just think what we could with the trillions of dollars in assets and income that Western Christians and churches control if we ended religion...... Oh what, you all forgot that religion is a business?
We could blow it, just as we have with the rest of the money we've frittered away. Religion wasn't the cause of our economic woes and ending religion (which ain't going to happen, especially with regards to Christianity) won't solve such woes.
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If it's the latter, since you don't want to be with the God of the bible, do you really think it's punishment that you won't spend eternity with Him?
Also just to be clear according to the bible "following the church" and "[living your] life in a moral fashion" is not what gets you into heaven to spend eternity with God. It's accepting (by faith/belief) the free gift of forgiveness He provides through belief/acceptance in Christ as Savior.
If I don't beleive in him then why would I consider it punishment to not be with him, he does not exist. The question is, if he does exist why would he sentance me to hell for using the free will that he "ellegibly" instilled me with.
I like the second part of your post. Lets say I live a moral life, and it is amoral life in accordance to scripture, 10 commandments and all, but I do not beleive in god or accept christ. I am going to hell, right?
As a contrast, if I am a priest, follow god my whole life, serve teh church, but I just so happen to sick my dick in a few boys asses, but after that I accept the gift of forgiveness and repent, then I am going to heavon, right?
If the above is accurate I will take my time in hell as I do not want any part of the hypocrisy of heaven.
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The problem with free will is simple. If there isn't free will in heaven for the "saints" when they die, then why did God need to test us with it on earth, since without it in heaven we'd all obey God anyway? If there is no free will in heaven for the "saints" when they die, then how did Satan gain free will while in heaven which he purportedly used to rebel? If free will is so valuable, then why would God reward the "saints" in heaven by taking it away from them, but punish "sinners" in hell by letting them keep it ?
I haven't read the whole thread so I missed it but Lurker who said or where are you getting that there isn't free will in heaven?
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If free will IS in heaven, does that mean I can get into heaven and do whatever I want to and I get to stay?
I mean... once I'm saved... boom.
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We could blow it, just as we have with the rest of the money we've frittered away. Religion wasn't the cause of our economic woes and ending religion (which ain't going to happen, especially with regards to Christianity) won't solve such woes.
I didn't say religion caused any woes, just pointing out the fact that you are part of a very large business, nothing more.......
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Speaking of morals, the rate of pre-marital and extra-marital sex is about the same in Christians as Non Christians. I don’t have to provide any proof for that statement though, I have faith that it is correct.
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Not mine...........but a good read.
Does God answer prayer? No. In 2006 the most complete prayer research study (Benson, H. 2006) showed that intersessionary prayer had NO POSITIVE EFFECT on heart patients. Indeed, some patients who were prayed for got worse! The simplest conclusion is that prayer does not work because God does not exist.
Does God help us to be good? No. We are told religion helps us live a virtuous life. For example, Christians (we are told) are 'born again' in Christ as better people (than non-Christians). Yet, the history of religion is one of bloodshed, burnings and torture by the Christian Church. The Inquisition tortured and burned alive thousands of people for daring to contradict their doctrines. Religion still creates killers: The 9/11, 7/7, and Bali bombers, the "Lords Resistance Army" in Congo, IRA/UDA in Northern Ireland and suicide bombers in Iraq and Israel/Palistine are just a few of the long list of religiously motivated murderers.
Since the decline of religion in the West however, and the rise of secular science, we have got more humane, more democratic and more liberal. Doesn't this indicate that we've been lied to about the benefits of religion?
Is "God = Love"? Take a look at the God of the Torah/Bible/Q'ran. God commands genocide, rape, murder, infanticide and dreadful punishments for minor infringements (for a list see http://www.evilbible.com/). Many believe God will eventually send millions to a Hell of eternal torture. Many religions enforce strict rules e.g. opposing gay rights and equal opportunities for women. Many demand harsh punishments (flogging, execution or cutting off limbs) for minor crimes (e.g. adultery), or for non-belief. Is fear the real motivation for belief? Is this a God you'd want? Wouldn't we be better off without this tyrant?
Does God save us? Remember the Tsunami of Boxing Day 2004: Did God command it, or was he powerless to prevent it? If the first He is evil, if the second, He is impotent or non-existent. Praying to God brought no protection. Moreover, Nature is 'red in tooth and claw'. Suffering, disease and death are written into the very design of the universe it seems... Is this a 'perfect' creation designed by a sadistic God or just blind evolution at work? Conclusion: God either delights in suffering, or He doesn't exist.
Does God exist? No. Science shows we don't need God to explain the universe. Research shows that God doesn't answer prayer. History shows belief in God doesn't make us good. The Bible/Torah/Q'ran show us that fear motivates belief, and Nature shows us that the universe is blind to our suffering. Conclusion: There is no God
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If I don't beleive in him then why would I consider it punishment to not be with him, he does not exist. The question is, if he does exist why would he sentance me to hell for using the free will that he "ellegibly" instilled me with.
I see you don't think it would be punishment not to be with Him.
Hell is eternal separation from God. Since that's what you think you want (you don't! :( ), I don't see why you are implying it's a punishment....maybe I am inferring incorrectly?
I like the second part of your post. Lets say I live a moral life, and it is amoral life in accordance to scripture, 10 commandments and all, but I do not beleive in god or accept christ. I am going to hell, right?
No human on this earth is able to live completely in accordance to the 10 commandments.
But yes, I believe if you never sinned then you would go to heaven when you died.
As a contrast, if I am a priest, follow god my whole life, serve teh church, but I just so happen to sick my dick in a few boys asses, but after that I accept the gift of forgiveness and repent, then I am going to heavon, right?
Yes, if you are a believer in Christ as Savior you go to heaven.
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Yes, if you are a believer in Christ as Savior you go to heaven.
Well you have fun up there with the sodomites.........
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If free will IS in heaven, does that mean I can get into heaven and do whatever I want to and I get to stay?
I mean... once I'm saved... boom.
tu, where did the idea of no free will in heaven come from..I missed it?
In heaven, we will not have these exact same bodies. The Spirit/Soul gets saved, the fleshly body does not. I believe we will not sin in Heaven...we will be in perfect accordance w/God's will and won't even want to sin.
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Well you have fun up there with the sodomites.........
Thanks! Might be a few in hell too though.
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But if god is omnipotent, then would said "omnipotent" creator make a mistake, and then REPENT for it. If he really is omnipotent he could have just fixed everything. If the reason he couldn't fix everything without the flood then he is no omnipotent, and that opens up a whole new can of worms..........
And this alleged can of worms would be what?
And the fix is what, destroy man in his entirety (Noah and family included) with no chance of redemption, or simply let man continue to cause havoc and chaos, unchecked with without consequence?
Or, perhaps worse, FORCE MAN to obey Him, giving man no free will to act on his own?
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Stella, you know I love ya... I just can't get with the whole "God" thing.
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Thanks! Might be a few of those in hell too.
At least I will know they are, not lured in by someone doing god's work and then getting poked.............
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Stella, you know I love ya... I just can't get with the whole "God" thing.
Hopefully one day! :) ....love Tu too :)
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And this alleged can of worms would be what?
And the fix is what, destroy man in his entirety (Noah and family included) with no chance of redemption, or simply let man continue to cause havoc and chaos, unchecked with without consequence?
Or, perhaps worse, FORCE MAN to obey Him, giving man no free will to act on his own?
The can of worms is that if he is omnipotent, then he can do whatever he wants, so there is no reason to have an ark built, do I need to spell it out, he does not exist. If he did he wouldn't need noah to do it for him....... Oah and let man continue to cause havoc and chaos, that worked out well didn't it......
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At least I will know they are, not lured in by someone doing god's work and then getting poked.............
lol I think I'll be OK. :)
Watch yourself too though ;D
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My last post for now…….a few things to think about.....
So God is all knowing, all seeing, knows what we are thinking / doing, and he knows what is best for us. Question: Why do we pray. First off he already knows what we are thinking, why put our hands together bow our heads and address him. Also, if he knows what is best, then if we pray to change something that is happening (i.e.: pray to cure a loved ones cancer) then are we not questioning god, I mean god made them sick and he knows best, why question him. If he thinks it’s best for the cancer to go away he will make it so. So again, question: why pray?
Also, and interesting little tidbit……Western Christians and churches control trillions of dollars in assets and income, while 850 million people, including 200 million Christians, are currently starving. If Western Christians gave just 5% of their income towards this, it would solve the problem totally. The combined personal income of church members is $15 trillion a year while each member spends on average $7.80 a year on foreign missions or about one one-thousandth of their income. Not very Christian like……….lol
By no means am I looking to release you from the shackles of religion, just asking you to think about what you are conforming to, it is not a sin, and besides you can get around sins no prob, confession and boom, back in the good books…… The reason reactions are so strong is that you use no rational thought, no independent thought, you take everything you are told at face value. You say you believe and that’s it, while we use reason, science, etc to base our views on. I’d imagine this is an envious position, as the church does not allow you to do this……….
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I haven't read the whole thread so I missed it but Lurker who said or where are you getting that there isn't free will in heaven?
By the very basis of what heaven is and how to gain entry, free will simply can not exist in heaven. It is impossible to under the Christian notions and guidelines they bleat about.
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When people do bad thing and God seemingly does nothing: “Why doesn’t God do something about” this, that or the other?
Once He does intervene and renders judgment, then it becomes, “Oh why is God so mean, why didn’t He do it this way or that way?”
Bingo. The entire hypocrisy I spoke of.
I am not sure why you needed to go out of your way to repeat the same thing I said in different words and agree with me.
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Exactly. The hypocrisy of it all is that Christians themselves admit that God is more cruel to them than Satan.
Your kid died? Oh... God needed an angel. As if he hasn't gotten millions of them already, he needed a 4 year old. Never do they say "That damn Satan took my child from me".
You got cancer? How many times do you hear them claim "Ohhh... Satan is behind this and attacking me?" None. Instead it is always "God is testing me".
Your parents get killed in a car crash or leave you an orphan? You have a rare blood disease? Born retarded? Is it Satan being evil and crafty? No, it is always "God works in mysterious ways.."
Bunch of insecure tards.
Actually, this was the thinking a couple hundred yrs ago. Remember the Salem witch trials. Everything bad or tempting was Satan or his agents.
Remember the book The Scarlet Letter, woman gets impregnated by a man of God, yet she is ostracized and blamed for "tempting" him with her beauty.
Remember the proof that you are not a witch? If you survived a dunking you were a witch, if you died, then you are.
In Ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece everything bad was either blamed on the evil gods or Zeus, Horus and Company and company was testing them.
Basically man has always used a figure more power than him to explain away the things he has no control over.
Btw, I'm glad to see that getbig's intelligent fuckers came out for this thread.
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I haven't read the whole thread so I missed it but Lurker who said or where are you getting that there isn't free will in heaven?
So you believe in Jesus as your lord and savior?
Which means you don't worship Allah, Zeus, Yaheweh, Buddah. Atheists just go one god further and include Jesus in that category.
Who's the authority on which god to worship?
Every major religion denounces each other.
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Remember the proof that you are not a witch? If you survived a dunking you were a witch, if you died, then you are.
'Well, she turned me into a newt...I got better.'
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If god is omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. then he/she/it knows my fate before it even happens, right? If I were to "change" the ending, then how could god be omnipotent if the ending didn't go as he/she/it has forseen? So according to this theory, though we don't know our fate, god does, but we have the "free will" to accept jesus and bask in god's glory. But no christian knows if they really are going to "hell" or "heaven". They are assuming they will based on faith that they have from scriptures written by man thousands of years ago.
Here's my take: if my fate has been decided by god already (I'm either saved or damned) nothing I do will change the outcome. I'll just live my life without the burden, be happy and see how it turns out. ;D
Lol, but I'll tell you what, if I witnessed an amputee grow new limbs immediately after a prayer begging for new ones.................... .I may change my mind. :D
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If god is omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. then he/she/it knows my fate before it even happens, right? If I were to "change" the ending, then how could god be omnipotent if the ending didn't go as he/she/it has forseen? So according to this theory, though we don't know our fate, god does, but we have the "free will" to accept jesus and bask in god's glory. But no christian knows if they really are going to "hell" or "heaven". They are assuming they will based on faith that they have from scriptures written by man thousands of years ago.
Here's my take: if my fate has been decided by god already (I'm either saved or damned) nothing I do will change the outcome. I'll just live my life without the burden, be happy and see how it turns out. ;D
BOOOO!!! Hisssssssss!!!!! You heathen. You are suppose to live your live through justification and faith at the expense of bigotry and suppression of God's other children. Didn't you know this? All Christians do.
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http://www.throneofgod.com/ (http://www.throneofgod.com/)
Good read regarding topic.
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BOOOO!!! Hisssssssss!!!!! You heathen. You are suppose to live your live through justification and faith at the expense of bigotry and suppression of God's other children. Didn't you know this? All Christians do.
Lol, think about this:
Many people talk about "god given" gifts or talents. Athleticism, singing, etc. are attributed to god. Which means that god "favored" these people over others.
The rest of us that weren't bestowed these "gifts" are god's low lifes and are supposed to just worship him/her/it even though they were screwed by him.
Now of course the cynical christian will say they have other "gifts" bestowed upon them. Good thing I ain't a midget.
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'Well, she turned me into a newt...I got better.'
You see, this just illustrates how ignorant people are, and that most followers of that other big religion tend to think and act in the same manner.
If Jesus were to see how the religion that was named after him has been perverted, Im willing ro bet he'd go Old Testament on everybody. You think that "flood" was bad...pssst! That would small potatoes. Our civilization would be the New Atlantis.. Stories would be told of a great hedonistic society that was technologically advance, but due to perversion of God's Word, was destroyed...and followers would follow the same damn path again and stories would be repeated again to scare people into following said religions.
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The can of worms is that if he is omnipotent, then he can do whatever he wants, so there is no reason to have an ark built, do I need to spell it out, he does not exist. If he did he wouldn't need noah to do it for him....... Oah and let man continue to cause havoc and chaos, that worked out well didn't it......
If He can do whatever He wants, that means He can do it VIA the Flood, the Ark, and Noah. So what's the complaint, other than His picking a method you don't particularly like?
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If god is omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. then he/she/it knows my fate before it even happens, right? If I were to "change" the ending, then how could god be omnipotent if the ending didn't go as he/she/it has forseen? So according to this theory, though we don't know our fate, god does, but we have the "free will" to accept jesus and bask in god's glory. But no christian knows if they really are going to "hell" or "heaven". They are assuming they will based on faith that they have from scriptures written by man thousands of years ago.
Here's my take: if my fate has been decided by god already (I'm either saved or damned) nothing I do will change the outcome. I'll just live my life without the burden, be happy and see how it turns out. ;D
Lol, but I'll tell you what, if I witnessed an amputee grow new limbs immediately after a prayer begging for new ones.................... .I may change my mind. :D
(Very) oldie but goodie.
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Lol apparently moses and noah weren't the only multi hundred year old people.......... ::)
http://www.abetterhope.com/whois/gen-2.html
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(Very) oldie but goodie.
If atheists were winning since 33 A.D., why have they been crying like babies for the last 1,977 years (give or take a few)?
;D
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If atheists were winning since 33 A.D., why have they been crying like babies for the last 1900 years plus?
;D
;)
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;)
But, they "won", 1,977 years ago. Now, all of a sudden, they don't know!!!
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By the very basis of what heaven is and how to gain entry, free will simply can not exist in heaven. It is impossible to under the Christian notions and guidelines they bleat about.
The bleating would be coming from your end, as what you claim would be the equivalent of stating that you can't have free will at your place of employ, simply because you can't flagrantly continue to break certain company policies and still keep your job.
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How Old was Noah Again?As I said before no point in trying to have a rational discussion with someone that thinks a man lived hundreds and hundreds of years....LOL...I mean seriously...your dealing with people that basically accept this guy lived to 600 or however many hundred years...they are not rational to Begin with...
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How Old was Noah Again?As I said before no point in trying to have a rational discussion with someone that thinks a man lived hundreds and hundreds of years....LOL...I mean seriously...your dealing with people that basically accept this guy lived to 600 or however many hundred years...they are not rational to Begin with...
If the Obama administration can be credited with something: one of the first things it did was put scientists back in control of the national science agenda and toss out all the benders that Bush placed in positions of scientific administrative power. Oh brother.
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If the Obama administration can be credited with something: one of the first things it did was put scientists back in control of the national science agenda and toss out all the benders that Bush placed in positions of scientific administrative power. Oh brother.
Who was in control before the scientists got back in control?
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If the Obama administration can be credited with something: one of the first things it did was put scientists back in control of the national science agenda and toss out all the benders that Bush placed in positions of scientific administrative power. Oh brother.
Yep..but to the religious extremist that just reinforces there absurd Obama is the Antichrist rhetoric...although Who's that goof ball I always see on TV talking to stadiums full of sheep..always talks in a monotone voice...brown wavy hair...real creepy dude...I could see him being the false profit :D
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christians are suckers for preaching.............da ng, maybe I should take it up and make millions at the expense of others!
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christians are suckers for preaching.............da ng, maybe I should take it up and make millions at the expense of others!
It's the oldest scam there is man...You can milk people out of 10% or more...It's an age old hustle is right up there with prostitution...
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christians People are suckers for preaching.............da ng, maybe I should take it up and make millions at the expense of others!
And you're a Flip!? What is The Philippines, like, 98% Catholic or something? ;D
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And you're a Flip!? What is The Philippines, like, 98% Catholic or something? ;D
Yep, flip I be. And sorry to say it, but flips are suckers for Catholicism. Like any religion, if your family is in it, you'll probably also be in it when born. I just got smart and didn't just follow the flock.
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And you're a Flip!? What is The Philippines, like, 98% Catholic or something? ;D
Carl Sagan and I are discussing a resolutuion on the phone at this moment.
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The problem with religions can be equated with the recent gay movement. I don't care what you believe in or do behind closed doors, just keep that shit out of my face. Problem is religious freaks are all around pushing their beliefs on you, just as gays are everywhere in the media showing off. How many reality shows now have at least one gay person on it? Every one. They try to cover all demographics by having all whites, one black, maybe one asian and a gay person.
Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't try to convince me that what you do is better than what I do. There's not such thing as an intelligent debate on religion with religious people. All they do is get angry and spout hate at you and really have nothing to back them up other than a book written by people years after events supposedly happened.
How did christianity and islam get so big anyways? From love? From talking? Neither, from war. They invaded villages, cities, countries and forced it on you. Believe or we'll kill you. Nice fucking faiths.
The worst part is 90% of what religions preach today isn't what was originated but was adopted over time. Rituals like praying, using prayer beads, having odd ceremonies. Christians and muslims can't even agree within their own religion. Southern baptists differ from catholics who differ from protestants etc...
Even politics today mirror what religion has been doing for years. Having you follow from fear and not belief. Fear the gov, fear the terrorist, fear this, fear that. Americans are scared of their own fucking shadow today, just like the average religious freak is. They are afraid of God, afraid of the devil. Scared to do anything that will not grant them in a place like heaven. A place that no one has ever proved exists.
Shame on everyone.
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^^^good post...
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haha heres another time they found the ark...happens when ever they need to strum up some $$$
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so (if you believe this ridiculous story)then you concede god is the biggest mass murderer ever...
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Is there a biblical reason that they always think the ark is on mt Ararat? I thought the other discoveries here had been exposed as hoaxes. Why do they always look in this one spot?
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The problem with religions can be equated with the recent gay movement. I don't care what you believe in or do behind closed doors, just keep that shit out of my face. Problem is religious freaks are all around pushing their beliefs on you, just as gays are everywhere in the media showing off. How many reality shows now have at least one gay person on it? Every one. They try to cover all demographics by having all whites, one black, maybe one asian and a gay person.
Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't try to convince me that what you do is better than what I do. There's not such thing as an intelligent debate on religion with religious people. All they do is get angry and spout hate at you and really have nothing to back them up other than a book written by people years after events supposedly happened.
How did christianity and islam get so big anyways? From love? From talking? Neither, from war. They invaded villages, cities, countries and forced it on you. Believe or we'll kill you. Nice fucking faiths.
The worst part is 90% of what religions preach today isn't what was originated but was adopted over time. Rituals like praying, using prayer beads, having odd ceremonies. Christians and muslims can't even agree within their own religion. Southern baptists differ from catholics who differ from protestants etc...
Even politics today mirror what religion has been doing for years. Having you follow from fear and not belief. Fear the gov, fear the terrorist, fear this, fear that. Americans are scared of their own fucking shadow today, just like the average religious freak is. They are afraid of God, afraid of the devil. Scared to do anything that will not grant them in a place like heaven. A place that no one has ever proved exists.
Shame on everyone.
"Religion" is not what is right!
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The great flood myths are very common around the bigger parts of africa, europe and asia. The origins of those myths are usually attributed to the flooding of great rivers like Tigris and the Nile. There is no evidence for a world wide flood.
Yeah but if the wreckage was pure gopher wood, well then...
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Is there a biblical reason that they always think the ark is on mt Ararat? I thought the other discoveries here had been exposed as hoaxes. Why do they always look in this one spot?
yes it says
and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. Genesis 8:4
you can look it up directly http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%208:4&version=NIV
.
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The bleating would be coming from your end, as what you claim would be the equivalent of stating that you can't have free will at your place of employ, simply because you can't flagrantly continue to break certain company policies and still keep your job.
The bleating comes from brain dead mental sheep like yourself who can't accept reality with a bit of self esteem and confidence and instead dwell within the delusions created by insecurities and low self esteem.
Last time I checked, being employed also constituted of the company/boss/and job actually doing something for you. You think anyone would work a job where they promised you would get all your paychecks after you died? Well you probably would.
Idiot.
When was the last time God rewarded in the here and now?
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I hope to find a talking snake one day.
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I hope to find a talking snake one day.
many talking snakes around
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many talking snakes around
and Getbig is full of them.. pretty much 90% people in this thread..
except me
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The bleating comes from brain dead mental sheep like yourself who can't accept reality with a bit of self esteem and confidence and instead dwell within the delusions created by insecurities and low self esteem.
Reality is just fine! And accepting such is hardly a problem, especially when it comes to countering the utter foolishness that often comes from them lips of yours.
Last time I checked, being employed also constituted of the company/boss/and job actually doing something for you. You think anyone would work a job where they promised you would get all your paychecks after you died? Well you probably would.
Since the blessings that come from the Lord are enjoyed by many Christians, as they live and breathe today, we can file this into yet another stupid and woefully inaccurate statement of yours, regarding the Christian faith. Nowhere is there a premise that Christians only benefit from obeying the Lord when they die.
When was the last time God rewarded in the here and now?
According to some folks I met at yesterday's prayer meeting, it's been within the last 7 days, at least. And, there are other Christians here, who will testify to such, as well.
Idiot.
You've found your bathroom mirror, I see!!!
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The problem with religions can be equated with the recent gay movement. I don't care what you believe in or do behind closed doors, just keep that shit out of my face. Problem is religious freaks are all around pushing their beliefs on you, just as gays are everywhere in the media showing off. How many reality shows now have at least one gay person on it? Every one. They try to cover all demographics by having all whites, one black, maybe one asian and a gay person.
Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't try to convince me that what you do is better than what I do. There's not such thing as an intelligent debate on religion with religious people. All they do is get angry and spout hate at you and really have nothing to back them up other than a book written by people years after events supposedly happened.
Have you seen all of the lovely rhetoric coming from the non-believers, here? In fact, just recently, another non-believer said something similar, regarding how people of faith can't seem to have a conversation without "insults". When I kindly reminded him of an insult he hurled at me, he changed his tune somewhat.
Many atheists here have belittled, insulted, called people names, cursed at others with religious belief, etc. But, when their targets don't whimper away and hit them with some criticism regarding their statements, they tend to get a bit sensitive about it.
Look at folks like STella. Has she been angry or spouted hate at you or any other skeptic/atheist here, despite some of the less-than-friendly barbs thrown her way, regarding her faith?
How did christianity and islam get so big anyways? From love? From talking? Neither, from war. They invaded villages, cities, countries and forced it on you. Believe or we'll kill you. Nice fucking faiths.
It appears you forget how the Christian faith got its roots and what they endured, during the Roman empire. And, I wouldn't harp on the war stuff if I were you. Or, must you be reminded of the atheistic regime that have piled up bodies by the MILLIONS (in a far shorter period of time) that religious wars couldn't match, if they were continued to this very day.
The worst part is 90% of what religions preach today isn't what was originated but was adopted over time. Rituals like praying, using prayer beads, having odd ceremonies. Christians and muslims can't even agree within their own religion. Southern baptists differ from catholics who differ from protestants etc...
Even politics today mirror what religion has been doing for years. Having you follow from fear and not belief. Fear the gov, fear the terrorist, fear this, fear that. Americans are scared of their own fucking shadow today, just like the average religious freak is. They are afraid of God, afraid of the devil. Scared to do anything that will not grant them in a place like heaven. A place that no one has ever proved exists.
Shame on everyone.
Now, this is funny!! What then are we to make of the atheist "freak", who wets his pants, when he sees a cross at a cemetery? Who has a fit when a kid a school DARES to mention Jesus Christ during the Christmas season? Or some goof who sues about our nation's Pledge of Allegiance, on behalf of his daughter (of whom he doesn't even have sufficient custody and who, along with her mother, is a Christian anyway)? Or those bastions of security who sues over the name of a city, that happens to be named after three crosses?
Atheists continue to blubber (even though they supposedly won some 1,977 years ago) about someone they claim doesn't exist. And the Christians are the crazy ones?
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Typical brain dead zealot splutterings to soothe the insecurities of themselves by spouting yet more nonsense and delusions. The reason that Christianity is declining today is largely due in fact to Darwin filtering the stupid people out of the gene pool.
Since it is God's Will that Obama is to be the POTUS, isn't the hypocrisy outstanding when you complain about Obama. How dare you question God's Will.
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http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/802106--is-the-latest-noah-s-ark-discovery-a-fake?bn=1
oh to bad, i geuss the christians have more egg on there face. The fact that theya re liars makes it even worse. Wait til the full story emerges, it will be worse.
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Typical brain dead zealot splutterings to soothe the insecurities of themselves by spouting yet more nonsense and delusions. The reason that Christianity is declining today is largely due in fact to Darwin filtering the stupid people out of the gene pool.
Christianity has been "declining" for two millienia. But, to the angst of skeptic blowhards, it's alive and well. And, the mush-mouthed musing of people like you are testament to that fact.
Wasn't Christianity supposed to be destroyed by Nero? By Diocletian? By the "Enlightenment Period"? By "science"?
Since it is God's Will that Obama is to be the POTUS, isn't the hypocrisy outstanding when you complain about Obama. How dare you question God's Will.
Notwithstanding the questionable claim of Obama's election being God's will, complaining about a President, lying his keister off, hardly falls under the realm of hypocrisy. Oh, I forgot, lying isn't that big of a deal, because it comes from the lips of Obama.....never mind.
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Christianity has been "declining" for two millienia. But, to the angst of skeptic blowhards, it's alive and well. And, the mush-mouthed musing of people like you are testament to that fact.
Wasn't Christianity supposed to be destroyed by Nero? By Diocletian? By the "Enlightenment Period"? By "science"?
Notwithstanding the questionable claim of Obama's election being God's will, complaining about a President, lying his keister off, hardly falls under the realm of hypocrisy. Oh, I forgot, lying isn't that big of a deal, because it comes from the lips of Obama.....never mind.
you realize you are defending an irrational position by definition yet you believe others questioning talking snakes, 900 year old men is "mush mouthed". Does the fact that study after study shows atheists to be more moral and more intelligent bother you?
Does the fact that these christians carried shit up to the site to deceive people annoy you?
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you realize you are defending an irrational position by definition yet you believe others questioning talking snakes, 900 year old men is "mush mouthed". Does the fact that study after study shows atheists to be more moral and more intelligent bother you?
Hardly!! the "study after study" simply produces belly laugh after belly laugh. Of course, when someone mentions a couple of those bastions of atheist morality (Stalin, Mao, etc), you get all "sensitive". But, that's another issue (that whole "fluid" morality thing).
Plus, the “mush-mouthed” comment is based on Lurker’s musing that, for the nth time, Christianity’s declining, it’s on the way out, it’s dying, blah, blah, blah…..the same mess atheists and anti-Christians have been clucking for TWO MILLENIA. They’ve come; they’ve gone; Christianity is STILL HERE!!
Does the fact that these christians carried shit up to the site to deceive people annoy you?
Nope!! People have been seeking the remnants of the Ark, in earnest, for years. As long as the search was legitimate and done honestly, I have no issue with them.
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It appears you forget how the Christian faith got its roots and what they endured, during the Roman empire. And, I wouldn't harp on the war stuff if I were you. Or, must you be reminded of the atheistic regime that have piled up bodies by the MILLIONS (in a far shorter period of time) that religious wars couldn't match, if they were continued to this very day.
If it wasn't for Constantine choosing christianity over paganism hundreds of years ago the religion wouldn't exist. Why did he pick it? For the teachings? For the meaning? Neither. At the time the christians outnumbered the pagans and he was a true politician and decided to go with christianity.
But you are correct that both sides of the coin of religious/atheist are some freaks and then there's those in the middle.
Just like gays. There are ones that wants the whole world to know by shoving it in your face every chance they get (no homo). Then there are those you've known for years and one day find out and you're like "wow, didn't know he was gay". I don't need religious people trying to tell me how to live my life and I don't need politicians using religion for the bases of laws that they create trying to police me.
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Hardly!! the "study after study" simply produces belly laugh after belly laugh. Of course, when someone mentions a couple of those bastions of atheist morality (Stalin, Mao, etc), you get all "sensitive". But, that's another issue (that whole "fluid" morality thing).
Plus, the “mush-mouthed” comment is based on Lurker’s musing that, for the nth time, Christianity’s declining, it’s on the way out, it’s dying, blah, blah, blah…..the same mess atheists and anti-Christians have been clucking for TWO MILLENIA. They’ve come; they’ve gone; Christianity is STILL HERE!!
Nope!! People have been seeking the remnants of the Ark, in earnest, for years. As long as the search was legitimate and done honestly, I have no issue with them.
morality has already been explained to you with animals exhibiting morality. You just wont accept it because you have the answer already, god is the only answer. Also, something can be on the decline yet still be here, your argument is completely illogical. Communism has declined yet its still here.
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If it wasn't for Constantine choosing christianity over paganism hundreds of years ago the religion wouldn't exist. Why did he pick it? For the teachings?
Oh, so the religion didn't exist for the centuries PRIOR to Constantine, when his predecessors were trying to destroy it (unsuccessfully, I might add).
For the meaning? Neither. At the time the christians outnumbered the pagans and he was a true politician and decided to go with christianity.
You mean, despite CENTURIES of guys like Nero, Diocletian, etc. killing and persecuting Christians, THEIR NUMBERS GREW??? Shut your mouth!!!
But you are correct that both sides of the coin of religious/atheist are some freaks and then there's those in the middle.
Just like gays. There are ones that wants the whole world to know by shoving it in your face every chance they get (no homo). Then there are those you've known for years and one day find out and you're like "wow, didn't know he was gay". I don't need religious people trying to tell me how to live my life and I don't need politicians using religion for the bases of laws that they create trying to police me.
So, those laws about stealing, murdering, lying, bearing false witness (based on the Ten Commandments) get axed? You don't seem to have a problem with non-religious people (politicians or not) trying to tell you how to live your life. Go figure.
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morality has already been explained to you with animals exhibiting morality. You just wont accept it because you have the answer already, god is the only answer. Also, something can be on the decline yet still be here, your argument is completely illogical. Communism has declined yet its still here.
But, it's not supposed to be here AT ALL. Nero, Diocletian, The "Enlightment period", "science", etc. were ALL SUPPOSED to spell the end of Christianity. It didn't happen. But, I guess, in light of that, skeptics will take what they can get; thus, they get all giddy when it's supposedly in decline.
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Hardly!! the "study after study" simply produces belly laugh after belly laugh.
That would be because you are too delusional to understand it. Reality doesn't change simply because you can't accept it. Deal with that.
Plus, the “mush-mouthed” comment is based on Lurker’s musing that, for the nth time, Christianity’s declining, it’s on the way out, it’s dying, blah, blah, blah…..the same mess atheists and anti-Christians have been clucking for TWO MILLENIA. They’ve come; they’ve gone; Christianity is STILL HERE!!
Are you denying Christianity is declining? Yes or no. Very simple question. Are there more or less Christians in this nation than there were 10 years ago.
Nope!! People have been seeking the remnants of the Ark, in earnest, for years. As long as the search was legitimate and done honestly, I have no issue with them.
And it hasn't been found because quite simply it does not exist. Just like your fat man sitting on the cloud.
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Notwithstanding the questionable claim of Obama's election being God's will,
Are you denying it? Was it or was it not Gods Will that Obama is POTUS? God is in charge of everything according to you freaks. God already has our destiny mapped out and knows how it will turn out.
Based on those irrational beliefs, God must have indeed selected Obama to become POTUS.
So why are you complaining? Are you questioning God's Will? Are you saying God made a mistake?
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But, it's not supposed to be here AT ALL. Nero, Diocletian, The "Enlightment period", "science", etc. were ALL SUPPOSED to spell the end of Christianity. It didn't happen. But, I guess, in light of that, skeptics will take what they can get; thus, they get all giddy when it's supposedly in decline.
Modern science has revolutionized our understanding of the universe only in the last 100 or so years. Even more so in the last 25 years. Yes, religion is dying due to the fact we know more about how the universe works than ever before. There is no longer any need to use myth to explain things we can understand scientifically.
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If it wasn't for Constantine choosing christianity over paganism hundreds of years ago the religion wouldn't exist. Why did he pick it? For the teachings? For the meaning? Neither. At the time the christians outnumbered the pagans and he was a true politician and decided to go with christianity.
Funny thing is, that Jesus only became the Son Of God by Constantine (and a narrow vote) and not by God himself. Jesus's Holiness was bestowed upon him not by a Supreme Being or Divine Spirit but by another mortal man. Jesus was an ordinary man who happened to be a prophet, nothing more, nothing less. The focal point of Christianity and it's leader didn't even come from the heavens, but from a political vote.
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Modern science has revolutionized our understanding of the universe only in the last 100 or so years. Even more so in the last 25 years. Yes, religion is dying due to the fact we know more about how the universe works than ever before. There is no longer any need to use myth to explain things we can understand scientifically.
Then again look at all the other pagan beliefs that Christianity has copied parts from and see how long they lasted.
It is declining simply because people as a whole are getting smarter and leaving foolish fables behind.
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Horus = Jesus... Just about 12,000 years earlier.
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That would be because you are too delusional to understand it. Reality doesn't change simply because you can't accept it. Deal with that.
Oh, I understand it. Hence the reason it's hysterical, as is your continue mush-moutheded musings.
Are you denying Christianity is declining? Yes or no. Very simple question. Are there more or less Christians in this nation than there were 10 years ago.
By sheer numbers, there are more Christians; by percentage it's less. That's due to our sheer population size.
And it hasn't been found because quite simply it does not exist. Just like your fat man sitting on the cloud.
Gee, how many times have atheists made that statement, only to get burned once archaeological/historical evidence is found?
Besides, I'm not looking for a fat man sitting on a cloud (maybe you are; but that's your business).
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Considering you can't even quote properly, I am not surprised to find you have a difficult time coping with reality.
Now I am going to have to request the "archaeological/historical evidence" that has burned atheists. This should be good. ::)
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Funny thing is, that Jesus only became the Son Of God by Constantine (and a narrow vote) and not by God himself. Jesus's Holiness was bestowed upon him not by a Supreme Being or Divine Spirit but by another mortal man. Jesus was an ordinary man who happened to be a prophet, nothing more, nothing less. The focal point of Christianity and it's leader didn't even come from the heavens, but from a political vote.
Not even close!! Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God, CENTURIES before Constantine was even born, much less emperor.
Jesus' disciples preach that, as did Paul, and 1st-century/2nd-century Christian leaders like Tertullian, Origen, etc.
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Considering you can't even quote properly, I am not surprised to find you have a difficult time coping with reality.
That was due to an issue with my computer. What's your excuse? Believe me, under no circumstance would I intentionally saddle someone else with your bufoonery.
Now I am going to have to request the "archaeological/historical evidence" that has burned atheists. This should be good. ::)
Usually, I leave that to Loco, as he has his usual handy-dandy list queued up. But, one of my personal favorites happens to be a certain Babylonian ruler named Belshazzar, who supposedly didn't exist and was a figment of the Jews' imagination.
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Modern science has revolutionized our understanding of the universe only in the last 100 or so years. Even more so in the last 25 years. Yes, religion is dying due to the fact we know more about how the universe works than ever before. There is no longer any need to use myth to explain things we can understand scientifically.
Modern science was supposed to have done that during the Enlightenment Period, hence putting an end to Christianity. It didn't happen.
And, since Christianity's occurence had nothing to do with attempting to explain how the universe works, scientific discovery will not cause its downfall.
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Horus = Jesus... Just about 12,000 years earlier.
Egyptian (Horus)
Born on December 25th
Born of a Virgin
Birth was accompanied by a star n the East
3 kings followed the star, and adorned him
was a prodigal teacher at age 12
started a ministry at age 30 when he was baptized
had 12 disciples
performed miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water
was also known as "the truth" "the light" "gods anointed son" "the lamb of god" "the good shepherd"
was betrayed
crucified
burried for 3 days
ressurected
dating 3000 years before jesus
Persian (Mithra)
born of a virgin
born on December 25th
12 disciples
performed miracles
dead for 3 days and was resurrected
referred to as "the truth" "the light"
Sacred day of worship for Mithra is Sunday
dating 900 years prior to Jesus
Indian (Krishna)
Born of a Virgin
Star in the East signaled birth
performed miracles
resurrected
Greek (Dionisus)
Born of a virgin
wandering nomad
performed miracles
Killed by enemies
resurrected by god
Phrygia (Attis)
born on December 25th of the Virgin Nana.
considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers.
His priests were "eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven."
He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
On "Black Friday," he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
He descended into the underworld.
After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25th (as tradition held of Jesus) as the "Most High God."
Attis was represented as a "a man tied to a tree, at the foot of which was a lamb, and, without doubt also as a man nailed to a tree..."
On March 22nd, a pine tree was felled and "an effigy of the god was affixed to it, thus being slain and hung on a tree..." Later the priests are supposed to have found Attis' grave empty.
Then Jesus came along... and just WHAT do you think his bio turned out to be? ::)
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Are you denying it? Was it or was it not Gods Will that Obama is POTUS? God is in charge of everything according to you freaks. God already has our destiny mapped out and knows how it will turn out.
I would say it was NOT. Much was it was not God's will for David to commit adultery with Bathsheba. But he did, anyway.
Based on those irrational beliefs, God must have indeed selected Obama to become POTUS.[/quote]
No, that is based on your fractured lack of comprehension. When you have free will, you can do things that are CONTRARY to God's will.
So why are you complaining? Are you questioning God's Will? Are you saying God made a mistake?
I've complained because Obama is limp-wristed fraud. And, O mush-mouthed one, I'm not questioning God's will (at least not on this issue) or claiming He made a mistake.
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Our earliest human tribes, actual tribes proven to have existed and before the genisis story, worshiped the sun, moon, stars, entities and any other unexplainable phenomenons or events which they believed were of paranormal or "godly" doings. It still goes on today because for some reason man has to have some hope for something better than just the life of an organism that is part of Earth's evolution. We live we die and life goes on with or without us. Most people can't comprehend that and have to believe that there is more than that when really that's all it is.
But think of the most notable people in history. They've usually been either great leaders or dictators, or great scientists. These are really the only two types of people that have had major impacts on history. Many dictators and leaders used religion to scare the masses, and many scientists broke many "godlike" rules.
IMO, the religious don't want to feel like they've been duped (who does) after spending all their time, life and money on something that their parents or family got them involved in.
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I would say it was NOT. Much was it was not God's will for David to commit adultery with Bathsheba. But he did, anyway.
No, that is based on your fractured lack of comprehension. When you have free will, you can do things that are CONTRARY to God's will.
So you are admitting that Free Will is more powerful than God. Therefore that makes man more powerful than God. Which isn't a surprise as God is a creation of man and not vice versa.
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So you are admitting that Free Will is more powerful than God. Therefore that makes man more powerful than God. Which isn't a surprise as God is a creation of man and not vice versa.
This is a great point. If the "will of god" was for Obama to be president, then why are the religious against it?
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MCWAY.
What is god? Give me your definition, not what the bible says. Also if God created earth. Are we just his ant farm? What's the point of outerspace and planets. Did God create gravity and the stars. Why?
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Egyptian (Horus)
Born on December 25th
Born of a Virgin
Birth was accompanied by a star n the East
3 kings followed the star, and adorned him
was a prodigal teacher at age 12
started a ministry at age 30 when he was baptized
had 12 disciples
performed miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water
was also known as "the truth" "the light" "gods anointed son" "the lamb of god" "the good shepherd"
was betrayed
crucified
burried for 3 days
ressurected
dating 3000 years before jesus
Persian (Mithra)
born of a virgin
born on December 25th
12 disciples
performed miracles
dead for 3 days and was resurrected
referred to as "the truth" "the light"
Sacred day of worship for Mithra is Sunday
dating 900 years prior to Jesus
Indian (Krishna)
Born of a Virgin
Star in the East signaled birth
performed miracles
resurrected
Greek (Dionisus)
Born of a virgin
wandering nomad
performed miracles
Killed by enemies
resurrected by god
Phrygia (Attis)
born on December 25th of the Virgin Nana.
considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers.
His priests were "eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven."
He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
On "Black Friday," he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
He descended into the underworld.
After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25th (as tradition held of Jesus) as the "Most High God."
Attis was represented as a "a man tied to a tree, at the foot of which was a lamb, and, without doubt also as a man nailed to a tree..."
On March 22nd, a pine tree was felled and "an effigy of the god was affixed to it, thus being slain and hung on a tree..." Later the priests are supposed to have found Attis' grave empty.
Then Jesus came along... and just WHAT do you think his bio turned out to be? ::)
When you have to resort to barfing up the same crap that Luke uses (and I’ve shredded), you have really hit ROCK BOTTOM.
Here we go again.
Egyptian (Horus)
Born on December 25th
NOPE!!! Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus said to be born Dec. 25th. You can thank Constantine for that one.
Born of a Virgin
Apparently, like Pres. Obama, you don’t read the subject matter, before making stupid statements. Isis, Horus’ mother was HARDLY A VIRGIN. She had sex with Osiris in the underworld (while she was a BIRD, for Pete’s sake) to conceive Horus.
Birth was accompanied by a star in the East
OOPS!! Try again
3 kings followed the star, and adorned him
Jesus was found by wise men, NOT KINGS. And Scripture gives no exact number. Western Tradition cites the number at three. To top it all off, they don't find Him at birth, but around age TWO.
was a prodigal teacher at age 12
And the chapter and verse that has Jesus being an official teacher at 12 would be……
started a ministry at age 30 when he was baptized
And, this ministry would be.....
had 12 disciples
performed miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water
was also known as "the truth" "the light" "gods anointed son" "the lamb of god" "the good shepherd"
was betrayed
The disciples claim is a bust, let alone there being twelve of them. He was betrayed...OOOOOOOH!! Who hasn't been. Even Luke isn't this pitiful....welll.....
crucified
burried for 3 days
ressurected
dating 3000 years before jesus
Crucified? I don’t think so!! In fact, most we hear about him is that he loses an eye against Seth.
I supposed I shouldn't bring up that Attis was also a product of a deity getting his freak on the sneak (his mama wasn't a "virgin" either), or the fact that Dec. 25 doesn't mean a hill of beans either, with regards to him.
Or that Attis dies by chopping off his own nuts, out of lust for his own mama. Or the minor fact that, despite her pleading (and that of Attis worshippers) ATTIS DOES NOT RISE FROM THE DEAD!!! (his finger wiggles indefinitely and some hair keeps growing).
Again, when you resort to this, you've really hit the skids.
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This is a great point. If the "will of god" was for Obama to be president, then why are the religious against it?
Try asking McWacky that and getting a clear answer. Instead you will get spinning, spouting, spoofing and spluttering.
Didn't you KNOW???? Gods Will only applies to thing that are in their favor. ::)
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Horus = Jesus... Just about 12,000 years earlier.
I said this a long time ago. You can even do it like this: Ra, Zeus=God, Horus, Hercules=son of God, and had to go through trials and tribulations on earth before entrance to "respective" heavens. But Horus was the son of Osiris, not Ra, Osiris was the son of Ra....so they cut out the middle man.
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When you have to resort to barfing up the same crap that Luke uses (and I’ve shredded), you have really hit ROCK BOTTOM.
Here we go again.
NOPE!!! Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus said to be born Dec. 25th. You can thank Constantine for that one.
Apparently, like Pres. Obama, you don’t read the subject matter, before making stupid statements. Isis, Horus’ mother was HARDLY A VIRGIN. She had sex with Osiris in the underworld (while she was a BIRD, for Pete’s sake) to conceive Horus.
OOPS!! Try again
Jesus was found by wise men, NOT KINGS. And Scripture gives no exact number. Western Tradition cites the number at three. To top it all off, they don't find Him at birth, but around age TWO.
And the chapter and verse that has Jesus being an official teacher at 12 would be……
started a ministry at age 30 when he was baptized
And, this ministry would be.....
The disciples claim is a bust, let alone there being twelve of them. He was betrayed...OOOOOOOH!! Who hasn't been. Even Luke isn't this pitiful....welll.....
Crucified? I don’t think so!! In fact, most we hear about him is that he loses an eye against Seth.
Again, when you resort to this, you've really hit the skids.
Earlier on I told you that 90% of what's practiced today was never the origin of the religion but man's spin on it and you told me to shut my mouth. But then you argue that all of these points about 3 wise men, Dec 25th, jesus's birth was made up shit.
Make up your mind. That's what my point is. Most of what people follow today as religion is made up shit and not the way the religion was intended or designed. man put his spin on things over centuries that have become more of a tradition than religion.
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When you have to resort to barfing up the same crap that Luke uses (and I’ve shredded), you have really hit ROCK BOTTOM.
Here we go again.
NOPE!!! Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus said to be born Dec. 25th. You can thank Constantine for that one.
Apparently, like Pres. Obama, you don’t read the subject matter, before making stupid statements. Isis, Horus’ mother was HARDLY A VIRGIN. She had sex with Osiris in the underworld (while she was a BIRD, for Pete’s sake) to conceive Horus.
OOPS!! Try again
Jesus was found by wise men, NOT KINGS. And Scripture gives no exact number. Western Tradition cites the number at three. To top it all off, they don't find Him at birth, but around age TWO.
And the chapter and verse that has Jesus being an official teacher at 12 would be……
started a ministry at age 30 when he was baptized
And, this ministry would be.....
The disciples claim is a bust, let alone there being twelve of them. He was betrayed...OOOOOOOH!! Who hasn't been. Even Luke isn't this pitiful....welll.....
Crucified? I don’t think so!! In fact, most we hear about him is that he loses an eye against Seth.
Again, when you resort to this, you've really hit the skids.
Thank you for proving my point perfectly and exposing yourself - like all Christians - as an utter hypocrite.
You can try to knock other religions and Gods and expose contradictions in their beliefs, but when someone does the same to your little insecurity crutch system, you turn on the tears and start whining and pouting.
Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th? No!!! You don't say? But.. but.. but... that is what the Christians claim and celebrate. And if they are celebrating and believing one thing that is wrong and you admit to, then how many other things are wrong that they are blindly following? Hint : Tons.
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Earlier on I told you that 90% of what's practiced today was never the origin of the religion but man's spin on it and you told me to shut my mouth. But then you argue that all of these points about 3 wise men, Dec 25th, jesus's birth was made up shit.
Make up your mind. That's what my point is. Most of what people follow today as religion is made up shit and not the way the religion was intended or designed. man put his spin on things over centuries that have become more of a tradition than religion.
The claim was that Jesus was copied from Horus. A simple examination of the two shows that they barely match in any way shape or form.
If someone said that I was copied from you and examined our respective accounts on our lives, to find that virtually NONE of the details match, how would you react?
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The claim was that Jesus was copied from Horus. A simple examination of the two shows that they barely match in any way shape or form.
If someone said that I was copied from you and examined our respective accounts on our lives, to find that virtually NONE of the details match, how would you react?
You aren't answering my post. I don't give a shit about Horus. I'm asking you about the fallacies that people follow today about Christianity and was is taught by the church vs. the origination of the actual religion.
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Earlier on I told you that 90% of what's practiced today was never the origin of the religion but man's spin on it and you told me to shut my mouth. But then you argue that all of these points about 3 wise men, Dec 25th, jesus's birth was made up shit.
He told you to shut up because he couldn't handle the truth.
It is like someone doing a cover of an old song. You can point out it is nothing but a rehash of something else that already existed and the fanatics will claim otherwise saying "oh, but it's a different singer and it has a 3-2-2 tempo, not a 3-1-2 tempo, and the chorus line is not a choir anymore but a singular hook", and blah blah blah....
It's the same shit. When you have to resort to such excuses to justify in believing something, it is a sure fire indication that deep down you don't believe it much yourself or either you are very very very stupid and actually do.
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You aren't answering my post.
LOL!!! Having a direct and logical conversation with Christians is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.
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Thank you for proving my point perfectly and exposing yourself - like all Christians - as an utter hypocrite.
What I've prove is that, as is too often the case, you have little clue about what you speak.
You can try to knock other religions and Gods and expose contradictions in their beliefs, but when someone does the same to your little insecurity crutch system, you turn on the tears and start whining and pouting.
WRONG!! I take their accusations, analyze them, and cut them up using the actual facts of the matter.
Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th? No!!! You don't say? But.. but.. but... that is what the Christians claim and celebrate. And if they are celebrating and believing one thing that is wrong and you admit to, then how many other things are wrong that they are blindly following? Hint : Tons.
You made the boneheaded claim that Jesus was copied from the other figures, which is patently false. And, you didn't do that to make a point. You "blindly" followed some claptrap that another skeptic poster is notorious for copying and pasting.
Many Christians know Jesus wasn't born Dec. 25. The date assigned to honor His birth simply stuck out of tradition. If there's something that Christians are supposedly blindly following, then it's brought up and discussed accordingly.
Unfortunately, for the skeptic bunch, the lion's share of their accusations are as hollow as a bag of Cheetos (as just as easy to crush). And, your pitiful posturing is a prime example of such.
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What I've prove is that, as is too often the case, you have little clue about what you speak.
WRONG!! I take their accusations, analyze them, and cut them up using the actual facts of the matter.
You made the boneheaded claim that Jesus was copied from the other figures, which is patently false. And, you didn't do that to make a point. You "blindly" followed some claptrap that another skeptic poster is notorious for copying and pasting.
Many Christians know Jesus wasn't born Dec. 25. The date assigned to honor His birth simply stuck out of tradition. If there's something that Christians are supposedly blindly following, then it's brought up and discussed accordingly.
Unfortunately, for the skeptic bunch, the lion's share of their accusations are as hollow as a bag of Cheetos (as just as easy to crush). And, your pitiful posturing is a prime example of such.
BINGO! Now you are talking rational. 90% of what people follow today as religion in Christianity, Judaism, Islam is tradition and not actual relgion.
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LOL!!! Having a direct and logical conversation with Christians is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.
Exactly. I asked MCWAY for empirical proof of Noah pages ago, and got a anecdotal mishmash of answer in return. Succeeding pages have seen nothing but obfuscatory 'religious' rhetoric. It's basically post-count attrition.
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You aren't answering my post. I don't give a shit about Horus. I'm asking you about the fallacies that people follow today about Christianity and was is taught by the church vs. the origination of the actual religion.
Got tied up with Lurker. If you asked me about the fallacies that people follow today, it seems a bit odd that you'd be upset when I mention such fallacies. Yes, they involved the claims about Jesus and Horus. That's why I pointed out: His date of birth is NOT stated as Dec. 25 (or any Hebrew date corresponding to such), wise men, instead of kings (exact number ungiven), and they find Him when He's about two years old, not immediately after birth (as Nativity scenes depict).
If by "the Church" you mean the Roman Catholic Church, what fallacies specifically do you wish to discuss?
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Exactly. I asked MCWAY for empirical proof of Noah pages ago, and got a anecdotal mishmash of answer in return. Succeeding pages have seen nothing but obfuscatory 'religious' rhetoric. It's basically post-count attrition.
Try that again. I said that "the fact remains" within numerous cultures, past and present, there is a consensus that this planet was destroyed by a global flood.
After I made that statement, you jumped in, asking me for empirical proof. And, I did in fact display proof that numerous cultures and civilizations (some of which were not associated with Ancient Middle East) had such flood accounts.
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BINGO! Now you are talking rational. 90% of what people follow today as religion in Christianity, Judaism, Islam is tradition and not actual relgion.
I wouldn't go that far to say "90%". But, I've stated, on several occasions, that there are several traditions and doctrine (at least, regarding Christianity) that have no basis in Scripture.
But, as the saying goes, you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater (as some skpetics tend to do).
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Try that again. I said that "the fact remains" within numerous cultures, past and present, there is a consensus that this planet was destroyed by a global flood.
After I made that statement, you jumped in, asking me for empirical proof. And, I did in fact display proof that numerous cultures and civilizations (some of which were not associated with Ancient Middle East) had such flood accounts.
Try what again? You either don't know what empirical means, or you're just waffling again.
Do you have empirical proof: YES or NO. It's that simple
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Try what again? You either don't know what empirical means, or you're just waffling again.
Do you have empirical proof: YES or NO. It's that simple
yes..In his mind all that it takes is a few different cultures to have had a flood around the same time...what more proof do you need!!!
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Many Christians know Jesus wasn't born Dec. 25. The date assigned to honor His birth simply stuck out of tradition. If there's something that Christians are supposedly blindly following, then it's brought up and discussed accordingly.
But isn't it a Pagan tradition and forbidden according to scripture?
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WRONG!! I take their accusations, analyze them, and cut them up using the actual facts of the matter.
Just as actual facts - or rather lack of - is what cuts up your little religion and beliefs.
Again... Hypocrisy... Nourishment for the Christian Soul it appears.
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The date assigned to honor His birth simply stuck out of tradition.
Out of what tradition? Same tradition that spawned the same birth date for Mirtha, Horus, etc...
It is simple contradictions like this that makes religious retards the laughing stock of the modern world.
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But, I've stated, on several occasions, that there are several traditions and doctrine (at least, regarding Christianity) that have no basis in Scripture.
So you are saying that only selective parts of the Bible are relevant and factual? Or to be followed? Who made this determination what traditions and doctrines are the basis of the current Scripture?
If the Bible is Gods Word, then who are YOU or anyone else to determine which parts of it is relevant and which parts of it are not?
Ok, answer now and let's see the hypocrisy and contradictions.
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Try what again? You either don't know what empirical means, or you're just waffling again.
Do you have empirical proof: YES or NO. It's that simple
In theist terminology empirical = anecdotal.
Duh. :P
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Try what again? You either don't know what empirical means, or you're just waffling again.
Do you have empirical proof: YES or NO. It's that simple
I've already shown the proof....THAT MUTLIPLE CULTURES cite a global flood as destroying life on Earth, with a few survivors building a vessels and storing animals on them. That is the statement I made, and I've cited the sources that back them.
And, in true bait-and-switch fashion, you've tried to claim that you asked me about empirical proof about the Flood itself, a claim which I never made.
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So you are saying that only selective parts of the Bible are relevant and factual? Or to be followed? Who made this determination what traditions and doctrines are the basis of the current Scripture?
If the Bible is Gods Word, then who are YOU or anyone else to determine which parts of it is relevant and which parts of it are not?
Ok, answer now and let's see the hypocrisy and contradictions.
O Phonically-challeneged one. Read what I stated earlier, AGAIN. "But, I've stated, on several occasions, that there are several traditions and doctrine (at least, regarding Christianity) that have no basis in Scripture."
If it has no basis in Scripture, it's NOT among the "selective parts of the Bible". Therefore, neither I nor anyone else is determining what is relevant and what is not.
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I've already shown the proof....THAT MUTLIPLE CULTURES cite a global flood as destroying life on Earth, with a few survivors building a vessels and storing animals on them. That is the statement I made, and I've cited the sources that back them.
And, in true bait-and-switch fashion, you've tried to claim that you asked me about empirical proof about the Flood itself, a claim which I never made.
The logistics of this happening are slim to none. One man would take decades to build such a ship alone. Plus that is if he had tools and wood from Home Depot, let alone probably having to blacksmith his own nails and getting the lumber needed. They how did he push this massive ship out to sea? Was it a sailboat? Must have been. Imagine a sail boat the size of the titanic, where do you find the sheets big enough for those sails. Plus how did he manage to lure the animals on the ship. I'd assume trapping two lions, two tigers, two cheetahs, two jaguars are no easy task.
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The logistics of this happening are slim to none. One man would take decades to build such a ship alone. Plus that is if he had tools and wood from Home Depot, let alone probably having to blacksmith his own nails and getting the lumber needed. They how did he push this massive ship out to sea? Was it a sailboat? Must have been. Imagine a sail boat the size of the titanic, where do you find the sheets big enough for those sails. Plus how did he manage to lure the animals on the ship. I'd assume trapping two lions, two tigers, two cheetahs, two jaguars are no easy task.
Who said Noah built the Ark alone? That's definitely not in the account. As far as time is concerned, it's 120 years, between the time judgment is brought on the Earth and the time the Flood actually occurs. How much of that time it took for Noah and company to build the Ark is not mentioned.
And, there'd be no need for sails. Sails are for powering and navigating a boat to go from point A to point B. There's nowhere for Noah to go, if the planet is flooded for over a year. The Ark needs only to stay afloat and store the animals, Noah, and his family.
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Who said Noah built the Ark alone? That's definitely not in the account. As far as time is concerned, it's 120 years, between the time judgment is brought on the Earth and the time the Flood actually occurs. How much of that time it took for Noah and company to build the Ark is not mentioned.
And, there'd be no need for sails. Sails are for powering and navigating a boat to go from point A to point B. There's nowhere for Noah to go, if the planet is flooded for over a year. The Ark needs only to stay afloat and store the animals, Noah, and his family.
So then are humans today descendants of Noah?
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So then are humans today descendants of Noah?
It would appear that way.
BTW, you may want to take a glance at a book, that I bought about 5 years ago, entitled Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study.
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O Phonically-challeneged one. Read what I stated earlier, AGAIN. "But, I've stated, on several occasions, that there are several traditions and doctrine (at least, regarding Christianity) that have no basis in Scripture."
If it has no basis in Scripture, it's NOT among the "selective parts of the Bible". Therefore, neither I nor anyone else is determining what is relevant and what is not.
So what you are admitting to is that Christians are following traditions and beliefs that are not in the Bible. Gotcha! Yeah. Exactly what I was sarcastically pointing out.
What it is based on then? The parts of the Bible that were selectively left out?
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How old was Noah again? ;)
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I've already shown the proof....THAT MUTLIPLE CULTURES cite a global flood as destroying life on Earth, with a few survivors building a vessels and storing animals on them. That is the statement I made, and I've cited the sources that back them.
And, in true bait-and-switch fashion, you've tried to claim that you asked me about empirical proof about the Flood itself, a claim which I never made.
More waffling and sophistry from MCSWAY. We'll take that as a NO. Here's Wiki's definition of Empirical for you. I've bolded the important bits for you.
"The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment.[1] A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. It is usually differentiated from the philosophic usage of empiricism by the use of the adjective empirical or the adverb empirically. The term refers to the use of working hypotheses that are testable using observation or experiment. In this sense of the word, scientific statements are subject to and derived from our experiences or observations. Empirical data is data that is produced by experiment or observation."
Fairy tales like Noah and his Ark, Baba Yaga or any of the Greek myths may be entertaining but are about as empirical as pigs flying.
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My thoughts on this debate aside, i'll just chime in that similarities with Horus and Jesus are about the same as the similarities of Satan and Jesus.
Being versed in Egyptian mythology (don't ask) during my college years, Horus and Jesus are very different, by origin, life and death.
Carry on.
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Fairy tales like Noah and his Ark, Baba Yaga or any of the Greek myths may be entertaining but are about as empirical as pigs flying.
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How old was Noah again? ;)
Well obviously more than 120 years old since that is how long it took for the ark to be finished.
If you can believe that.
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Well obviously more than 120 years old since that is how long it took for the ark to be finished.
If you can believe that.
and that he fathered what we know as mankind today.
Imagine that. Noah and his wife were able to father children that eventually became what we know as Asians, Blacks, whites etc....
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We approve. ;D
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More waffling and sophistry from MCSWAY. We'll take that as a NO. Here's Wiki's definition of Empirical for you. I've bolded the important bits for you.
"The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment.[1] A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. It is usually differentiated from the philosophic usage of empiricism by the use of the adjective empirical or the adverb empirically. The term refers to the use of working hypotheses that are testable using observation or experiment. In this sense of the word, scientific statements are subject to and derived from our experiences or observations. Empirical data is data that is produced by experiment or observation."
Fairy tales like Noah and his Ark, Baba Yaga or any of the Greek myths may be entertaining but are about as empirical as pigs flying.
In other words, it's trial and error, which I've known, since I was a kid. Of course, it hasn't dawned on you that it's a wee bit hard for someone to observe a global flood, let alone replicate one.
But, per my original statement, we have all these cultures and civilizations with this weird idea that, at some point in Earth's history, the planet was destroyed by a global flood. And the survivors became such by building a vessels and storing animals in it. That is well-documented.
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In other words, it's trial and error, which I've known, since I was a kid. Of course, it hasn't dawned on you that it's a wee bit hard for someone to observe a global flood, let alone replicate one.
But, per my original statement, we have all these cultures and civilizations with this weird idea that, at some point in Earth's history, the planet was destroyed by a global flood. And the survivors became such by building a vessels and storing animals in it. That is well-documented.
Actually, it is. Geologists and archaeologists can see evidence(s) of past flood action very easily from differences in rock strata, river path variation or from any number of biological markers. You're not very good at this, are you? ::)
/And it is simply 'well documented.' It would only be 'well-documented' if you had an object or subject it modified that followed. You talk a good game, but you don't have a clue, do you?
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and that he fathered what we know as mankind today.
Imagine that. Noah and his wife were able to father children that eventually became what we know as Asians, Blacks, whites etc....
Imagine this.... since obviously the inbred children of Adam and Eve turned out to be such marvelous specimens that the only solution was to destroy them all, minus a few that were on the ark... ::) God then did what? Based the future mankind race once again on incest relations and inbred by products.
You would think him being God and all.... he wouldn't make a mistake. Certainly not the same one twice.
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In other words, it's trial and error, which I've known, since I was a kid. Of course, it hasn't dawned on you that it's a wee bit hard for someone to observe a global flood, let alone replicate one.
But, per my original statement, we have all these cultures and civilizations with this weird idea that, at some point in Earth's history, the planet was destroyed by a global flood. And the survivors became such by building a vessels and storing animals in it. That is well-documented.
Where is the evidence that such a flood, any flood, at any point of the Earth's history was caused by God.
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Actually, it is. Geologists and archaeologists can see evidence(s) of past flood action very easily from differences in rock strata, river path variation or from any number of biological markers. You're not very good at this, are you? ::)
/And it is simply 'well documented.' It would only be 'well-documented' if you had an object or subject it modified that followed. You talk a good game, but you don't have a clue, do you?
This coming from someone who asks for "empiricial" proof about the cultures, which cite a global flood, then (when he got it) feebly tried the bait-and-switch job? ::)
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Where is the evidence that such a flood, any flood, at any point of the Earth's history was caused by God.
You can start here:
http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm (http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm)
Add to that, a stability study, regarding a vessel with the Ark's dimensions.
http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/hull_form/hull_optimization.htm (http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/hull_form/hull_optimization.htm)
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You can start here:
http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm (http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm)
Add to that, a stability study, regarding a vessel with the Ark's dimensions.
http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/hull_form/hull_optimization.htm (http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/hull_form/hull_optimization.htm)
I am not asking for evidence of a flood.
I am asking for evidence that the flood - any flood - was directly caused by God.
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This coming from someone who asks for "empiricial" proof about the cultures, which cite a global flood, then (when he got it) feebly tried the bait-and-switch job? ::)
Labour that point to all distraction; nobody's buying it. You have NOTHING. You're just a loud-mouthed phony. And *that* is all. :-\
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Hmm... haven't read this entire thread, so I don't know where exactly the argument is at the moment, but I should point out that the biblical definition of "The World," would be different then our definition. Most likely it was meant to refer to a specific geographical region.
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sooooooo.. God, who knows everything that ever was, everything that ever will be.. Is alone.. and lonely. He creates humans to worship and "love" him. He can also show his love, anger, jealousy, wrath, etc etc to them. He creates them knowing he will have to destroy all of them in a flood (except 8 who are on a boat with 2 of each kind of animal). However he knows in advance this flood is all for nothing and he will have to send his son/himself down as a sacrificial lamb to die for our sins so we can avoid hell and go to heaven. He does this knowing in advance that the majority of his creation will again ignore it and must be burned in hell eternally..
What's so hard to believe? That all this happened, or that God is that stupid..
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sooooooo.. God, who knows everything that ever was, everything that ever will be.. Is alone.. and lonely. He creates humans to worship and "love" him. He can also show his love, anger, jealousy, wrath, etc etc to them. He creates them knowing he will have to destroy all of them in a flood (except 8 who are on a boat with 2 of each kind of animal). However he knows in advance this flood is all for nothing and he will have to send his son/himself down as a sacrificial lamb to die for our sins so we can avoid hell and go to heaven. He does this knowing in advance that the majority of his creation will again ignore it and must be burned in hell eternally..
What's so hard to believe? That all this happened, or that God is that stupid..
No. All these events occurred because it was 'God's' pleasure, or so people, like MCWAY, would try to convince you.
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You can start here:
http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm (http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm)
Add to that, a stability study, regarding a vessel with the Ark's dimensions.
http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/hull_form/hull_optimization.htm (http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/hull_form/hull_optimization.htm)
Hahaha... Starting at a site that is so CLEARLY not based in science, but based in belief... The exact opposite of science.
Hmmm...
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MCWAY you didn't answer the question I had about feeding the animals. You state that at least 16,000 animals were on board the ark. If it takes 1 minute to feed 2 animals, it would take 5.5 days for just ONE feeding. And that's without a break. So not only do you have to feed the animals, but whoever is doing it has to feed themselves and also rest.
Give a reasonable answer to how this was done.
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MCWAY you didn't answer the question I had about feeding the animals. You state that at least 16,000 animals were on board the ark. If it takes 1 minute to feed 2 animals, it would take 5.5 days for just ONE feeding. And that's without a break. So not only do you have to feed the animals, but whoever is doing it has to feed themselves and also rest.
Give a reasonable answer to how this was done.
Also,
Since the entire globe was flooded with ocean water, doesn't that mean all the remaining water is salty water?
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i hear that jesus was a jew....
bench
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No thanks! I have my own!!!
What "age of reason"? A bunch of atheists, who simply become more belligerrent (and, at times, boneheaded), hardly classifies as an "age of reason".
The fact remains that, across the globe, in cultures past and present, we have a universal consensus that, at some point in this planet's history, there was a global catastrophe, a flood, which destroyed life as we know it on this planet, excluding a handful of survivors, who built a vessels carrying animals on it (which is hardly the way one commonly seeks to survive an oncoming deluge).
You have only words on paper - but that gives you enough arrogance to spout crap and insult others.
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Ok. So there was this big fucking flood you see. And 8 people survived. And still there are aaaaall these cultures writing about this catastrophe, in detail I guess. Explain please.
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Is this thread still alive? I had to get out, you can't debate this with people like mcway, nothing you say, no matter how much evidence to the contrary will ever convince him, science means nothing. He is brainwashed by the church, naive and gullible, weak minded, using hearsay as fact, let him. He has an answer for every query, and it all sounds very logical to him and the sheep.
Mcway, I concede, you convinced me, there is a man in the sky, noah saved all the animals from a flood in a big ass boat and lived to 900 years old, a virgin was impregnated and had a savior for a son, and you are going to heaven and we are going to hell. I got it, you win and we lose.
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Ok. So there was this big fucking flood you see. And 8 people survived. And still there are aaaaall these cultures writing about this catastrophe, in detail I guess. Explain please.
LOL!! In McWacky's mind this is perfectly logical and there is an explanation for it. But you have to realllllllllyyy believe in it. And disconnect from reality for a spell.
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Is this thread still alive? I had to get out, you can't debate this with people like mcway, nothing you say, no matter how much evidence to the contrary will ever convince him, science means nothing. He is brainwashed by the church, naive and gullible, weak minded, using hearsay as fact, let him. He has an answer for every query, and it all sounds very logical to him and the sheep.
Mcway, I concede, you convinced me, there is a man in the sky, noah saved all the animals from a flood in a big ass boat and lived to 900 years old, a virgin was impregnated and had a savior for a son, and you are going to heaven and we are going to hell. I got it, you win and we lose.
I was corrected that he didn't live to 900 but 600 and sum odd years...like that makes a difference...What was the average life expectancy back then anyway?ha ha...
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why are the non believers so angry at the ones that do believe? seriously, why does it piss you people off that much? who gives a fuck what who believes?
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why are the non believers so angry at the ones that do believe? seriously, why does it piss you people off that much? who gives a fuck what who believes?
I don't. Except when they attempt to use a fairy tale to tell other people how to live their lives and shove their agenda down people's throats while hiding behind delusions and smoke screens that reveals them to be idiots and hypocrites.
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why are the non believers so angry at the ones that do believe? seriously, why does it piss you people off that much? who gives a fuck what who believes?
Religious influence in education and politics comes to mind.
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sooooooo.. God, who knows everything that ever was, everything that ever will be.. Is alone.. and lonely. He creates humans to worship and "love" him. He can also show his love, anger, jealousy, wrath, etc etc to them. He creates them knowing he will have to destroy all of them in a flood (except 8 who are on a boat with 2 of each kind of animal). However he knows in advance this flood is all for nothing and he will have to send his son/himself down as a sacrificial lamb to die for our sins so we can avoid hell and go to heaven. He does this knowing in advance that the majority of his creation will again ignore it and must be burned in hell eternally..
What's so hard to believe? That all this happened, or that God is that stupid..
And God, who created Adam and Eve, knew that they were going to Sin, so therefore Sin was already created, because God "thought" it up. And He punished Adaam and Eve for doing something he knew that they were going to do in advance...
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I don't. Except when they attempt to use a fairy tale to tell other people how to live their lives and shove their agenda down people's throats while hiding behind delusions and smoke screens that reveals them to be idiots and hypocrites.
And this "agenda" gets shoved down your throat how, again?
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why are the non believers so angry at the ones that do believe? seriously, why does it piss you people off that much? who gives a fuck what who believes?
I've often wondered about all that anger, myself.
So much angst about someone who allegedy doesn't exist.
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I've often wondered about all that anger, myself.
So much angst about someone who allegedy doesn't exist.
It's because most people who claim to be religious aren't really all that religious. They talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
If you are to look at just the teachings of Jesus, it's not a bad way to live your life, but so many so called "Christians" completely miss it.
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clear thinking minds are far and inbetween on this issue. sad.
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It's because most people who claim to be religious aren't really all that religious. They talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
If you are to look at just the teachings of Jesus, it's not a bad way to live your life, but so many so called "Christians" completely miss it.
Unfortunately, that is true. We sin and fall short, way too many times.
The emphasis should be relying on His grace and striving to do better. But, often that gets lost in the mechanics of it all.
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clear thinking minds are far and inbetween on this issue. sad.
I love irony. I think the saying that your "clear thinking mind" was looking for is "few and far between". Sad
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I love irony. I think the saying that your "clear thinking mind" was looking for is "few and far between". Sad
hmm. possibly. but the way i put it still makes perfect sense. :) its not like i said "when in rome" totally out of context
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hmm. possibly. but the way i put it still makes perfect sense. :) its not like i said "when in rome" totally out of context
It makes sense in a way, though probably not the way you intended. 'Far and in-between' implies 'far and everything situated between far', which one would conclude means 'it encompasses everything'.
Meaning, everyone thinks with a clear mind.
Just yankin' your chain bro. ;D
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And this "agenda" gets shoved down your throat how, again?
It doesn't. But that doesn't stop you idiots from trying. Politics, education, social issues, etc... You just can't accept your own little insecurities and keep that invisible man belief all to yourself, you try to force everyone else to accept your views as well. Which only revels the hypocrisy of religious nim wits.
Interesting that you only pick and choose which posts to respond to on here. Not that I can't blame you, hard to respond to most when you have NO ANSWER to them.
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It makes sense in a way, though probably not the way you intended. 'Far and in-between' implies 'far and everything situated between far', which one would conclude means 'it encompasses everything'.
Meaning, everyone thinks with a clear mind.
Just yankin' your chain bro. ;D
;D
far ( not many close by).... in between [inbetween the split majority (Atheists/Theists) ]
;)
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faith has nothing to do with science. Why won't people stop looking to explain it through science.
If the religious should look into something it should be the shroud of Turin, it is pretty good evidence that a man named Jesus existed and was crucified. The rest is up to your faith to believe.
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faith has nothing to do with science. Why won't people stop looking to explain it through science.
If the religious should look into something it should be the shroud of Turin, it is pretty good evidence that a man named Jesus existed and was crucified. The rest is up to your faith to believe.
well, how many people go aorund trying to prove God with science or logic? I dont see any. I see people who supposedly believe in God going around denying science and living sinful lives creating a very negative image of God and religion for most people.
I see alot of people bashing religion, and most all of them do it on the basis that science has "debunked religion and God". well, if a religious person wishes to defend their beliefs... they have to defend against the offense, right? and the offense is playing 'science'
the offense is misguided, as is most on the defense.
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well, how many people go aorund trying to prove God with science or logic? I dont see any. I see people who supposedly believe in God going around denying science and living sinful lives creating a very negative image of God and religion for most people.
I see alot of people bashing religion, and most all of them do it on the basis that science has "debunked religion and God". well, if a religious person wishes to defend their beliefs... they have to defend against the offense, right? and the offense is playing 'science'
the offense is misguided, as is most on the defense.
http://www.mjain.net/spirituality/STEPpdf.pdf
The study was conducted by both Harvard and the Mayo Clinic, among others.
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faith has nothing to do with science. Why won't people stop looking to explain it through science.
If the religious should look into something it should be the shroud of Turin, it is pretty good evidence that a man named Jesus existed and was crucified. The rest is up to your faith to believe.
Most men of Jesus time were 5'1, the man of the shroud of Turin is 5'11. Remember Jesus himself couldn't be picked out of a crowd and Jews used a binding shroud, not a sheet. It's a complete middle ages fabrication.
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::)
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By the very basis of what heaven is and how to gain entry, free will simply can not exist in heaven. It is impossible to under the Christian notions and guidelines they bleat about.
Lurker, sorry, I guess I don't understand what you mean. Can you elaborate a little?
So you believe in Jesus as your lord and savior?
Which means you don't worship Allah, Zeus, Yaheweh, Buddah. Atheists just go one god further and include Jesus in that category.
Who's the authority on which god to worship?
Every major religion denounces each other.
Yes, I believe in Jesus as Savior.
I think the Bhah'i (sp?) Faith doesn't denounce any major religion and includes all of them as correct.
Here's my take: if my fate has been decided by god already (I'm either saved or damned) nothing I do will change the outcome. I'll just live my life without the burden, be happy and see how it turns out. ;D
We should do a thread on Pre-Destination.... Maybe I'll start one on the Relig. Board..thanks Oldschool!
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why are the non believers so angry at the ones that do believe? seriously, why does it piss you people off that much? who gives a fuck what who believes?
Religious influence in education and politics comes to mind.
. Politics, education, social issues, etc... You just can't accept your own little insecurities and keep that invisible man belief all to yourself, you try to force everyone else to accept your views as well.
Lurker and Yngiwe, can you please give some of the examples of religious influence in education, politics and social issues that upset you?
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Lurker and Yngiwe, can you please give some of the examples of religious influence in education, politics and social issues that upset you?
atheists are not allowed to hold office is certain states, the president could never announce his atheism.
There is alot more, like opposing abortion clinics, saying condoms cause aids, faith healing leading to death of innocent people, the direct undermining of education in schools by trying to teach creationism.
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Don't forget that crap going on in Texas now where they have officially lessened Thomas Jefferson in the curriculum and focused on creation instead of evolution.
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Lurker and Yngiwe, can you please give some of the examples of religious influence in education, politics and social issues that upset you?
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&safe=off&q=religious+influence+on+law&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=1b0740d3cd91ed5e
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&safe=off&q=religious+influence+on+politics&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=1b0740d3cd91ed5e
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=religious+influence+on+education&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=1b0740d3cd91ed5e
Take those same queries and search under 'news' for current events.
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atheists are not allowed to hold office is certain states, the president could never announce his atheism.
A political candidate either advocating or admitting atheism/agnosticism is committing political suicide, regardless of said candidate's intellect or qualification. Many people simply would not vote for a candidate who did not share their religious allegiances.
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http://www.mjain.net/spirituality/STEPpdf.pdf
The study was conducted by both Harvard and the Mayo Clinic, among others.
first of all... no study will ever say anything about God.
Secondly.. wheres the results ?? i cant find them lol
and lastly... prayer isnt something to be measured. and its response isnt something physical (usually).
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Lurker, sorry, I guess I don't understand what you mean. Can you elaborate a little?
Original Sin came from Adam (and Eve) having the freedom of choice. "Free will". It is stated that in heaven there is no pain or sin. Correct? Suppose one gets to heaven and wants to sin. They can't. Because sin doesn't exist in heaven. So therefore the desire to sin does not exist either. Or rather the choice to sin does not exist. Choice and desire are the basis of free will. Without it, free will can not exist.
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first of all... no study will ever say anything about God.
Conjecture.
You need to define God, before any real discussion can begin as a prime mover can differ immensely from the hands-on anthropomorphic sky god of the bible, but you claimed there has never been any studies done. Which is, of course, incorrect.
Secondly.. wheres the results ?? i cant find them lol
You never required results, just proof that studies are being done as per your previous statement.
well, how many people go aorund trying to prove God with science or logic? I dont see any.
Google is a great tool if you want to investigate further.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
and lastly... prayer isnt something to be measured. and its response isnt something physical (usually).
Read the synopsis of this particular study again.
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Most men of Jesus time were 5'1, the man of the shroud of Turin is 5'11. Remember Jesus himself couldn't be picked out of a crowd and Jews used a binding shroud, not a sheet. It's a complete middle ages fabrication.
??? how can you tell the man who's face is on the shroud of turin is 5' 11" ??? its a towel with the dirt/sweat/blood ? from a guys face nothing more. ???
also you don't really believe there were no people who were 5'11" in the middle east do you ?
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??? how can you tell the man who's face is on the shroud of turin is 5' 11" ??? its a towel with the dirt/sweat/blood ? from a guys face nothing more. ???
also you don't really believe there were no people who were 5'11" in the middle east do you ?
lol Panda.... the shroud is said to have covered Jesus entire body.
(http://blogs.setonhill.edu/StefanieRobb/shroud.jpg)
It's a hoax though.
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lol Panda.... the shroud is said to have covered Jesus entire body.
(http://blogs.setonhill.edu/StefanieRobb/shroud.jpg)
It's a hoax though.
oh, my mistake i was thinking of the veil of veronica.
either way, is it so hard to believe that a guy lived for 900 years during a time with no polution and foods full of nutrition. that he was warned by aliens that a flood was coming and to build a boat, and to collect as many animals as he could to save them and him ???
many scientists believe aging is a disease, and also oxygen levels cause aging too.
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many scientists believe aging is a disease, and also oxygen levels cause aging too.
From what I understand, aging is a crucial part of evolution.. it makes sure that parents/ancestors doesn't stick around and compete with the offspring.
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From what I understand, aging is a crucial part of evolution.. it makes sure that parents/ancestors doesn't stick around and compete with the offspring.
perhaps, but i would think that aging hinders evolution as you get a limited time to make use of the lessons you learn in life.
think of the advances in science if einstein, tesla, etc lived for 900 years :o
think of bodybuilding today if arthur jones lived for 900 years :o
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perhaps, but i would think that aging hinders evolution as you get a limited time to make use of the lessons you learn in life.
think of the advances in science if einstein, tesla, etc lived for 900 years :o
think of bodybuilding today if arthur jones lived for 900 years :o
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3329065877451441972#
;D
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3329065877451441972#
;D
all nonsensical pseudoscience aside - the human organism is not very efficient at delaying aging considering we are made up of simple proteins, minerals, fats et that are replaced constantly via eating anyway :-\
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all nonsensical pseudoscience aside - the human organism is not very efficient at delaying aging considering we are made up of simple proteins, minerals, fats et that are replaced constantly via eating anyway :-\
The movie explains the aging process and argues both sides of the anti-aging debate. Basically it boils down to the inability of our bodies to repair itself as we age. Thus far the only thing proven to slow the aging process and extended lifespan is calorie restriction.
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The movie explains the aging process and argues both sides of the anti-aging debate. Basically it boils down to the inability of our bodies to repair itself as we age. Thus far the only thing proven to slow the aging process and extended lifespan is calorie restriction.
not true: vitamins, healthy fats, and exercise have all been shown to slow the degradation of telomere length.
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not true: vitamins, healthy fats, and exercise have all been shown to slow the degradation of telomere length.
Yes, you're right. I should have included that in my post.
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Not sure if that video tells us this, but scientists have been able to manipulate the DNA of single cell organisms to replicate forever - they never die.
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MCWAY you didn't answer the question I had about feeding the animals. You state that at least 16,000 animals were on board the ark. If it takes 1 minute to feed 2 animals, it would take 5.5 days for just ONE feeding. And that's without a break. So not only do you have to feed the animals, but whoever is doing it has to feed themselves and also rest.
Give a reasonable answer to how this was done.
I didn't see your initial question.
I looked for the aforementioned referenced book, Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, which I bought a few years ago, this weekend. The last time someone asked me the very question you just asked, I gave the detailed answer from a particular chapter, covering that issue. Many of my books are still packed away, since I moved (including that one).
When I find my book, I will shoot the particulars to you.
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atheists are not allowed to hold office is certain states, the president could never announce his atheism.
Another "Obama is an atheist" routine? Say it ain't so!!! And BTW, why are you apparently advocating lying for political expediency?
There is alot more, like opposing abortion clinics, saying condoms cause aids, faith healing leading to death of innocent people, the direct undermining of education in schools by trying to teach creationism.
The undermining of education doesn't have a darn thing to do with Creationism. It's about lazy parents and culture that mocks the value of education (for kids) and promotes laziness. Throw that in with crooked teachers' unions and left-winged social engineering attempts, and you have a busted educational system.
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A political candidate either advocating or admitting atheism/agnosticism is committing political suicide, regardless of said candidate's intellect or qualification. Many people simply would not vote for a candidate who did not share their religious allegiances.
That MAAAAAAY just be due to the lack of atheist candidates who can respect the views of those people, whose votes he wishes to procure, even though he may not agree with them.
But, as is often the case, we have high-profile atheists who belittle people of faith, mock their beliefs and insult their values. Hmmm.....I wonder why nobody wants to vote for them.
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I think it's time to drop the term "atheism".
The same way we don't have a word for not believing in astrology there shouldn't be a classification/group for people that don't believe in deities. Atheism is not a movement or in any way, shape or form, a religion.
I don't believe in god, but I sure don't feel like an "atheist" and I never really tell that to my friends either.. I just say I don't believe in deities.
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That MAAAAAAY just be due to the lack of atheist candidates who can respect the views of those people, whose votes he wishes to procure, even though he may not agree with them.
But, as is often the case, we have high-profile atheists who belittle people of faith, mock their beliefs and insult their values. Hmmm.....I wonder why nobody wants to vote for them.
Most people I've seen interviewed on this subject refuse said vote because they don't trust someone who doesn't believe in their god.
Even were that not the case, any person who votes for a political candidate based on likability as opposed to intellect and qualification is doing themselves a disservice by not voting for the most qualified candidate.
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I think it's time to drop the term "atheism".
The same way we don't have a word for not believing in astrology there shouldn't be a classification/group for people that don't believe in deities. Atheism is not a movement or in any way, shape or form, a religion.
It depends on who you ask. In fact, Beach Bum and I discussed this a while ago, referring to what I called "un-churches"; that is, humanist centers in places like California, where atheist families attend, as a counter to other Christian families going to church.
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Not sure if that video tells us this, but scientists have been able to manipulate the DNA of single cell organisms to replicate forever - they never die.
They talk about similar concepts with gene therapy done on yeast and worms. They may have commented on this specifically, but I can't recall offhand.
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It depends on who you ask. In fact, Beach Bum and I discussed this a while ago, referring to what I called "un-churches"; that is, humanist centers in places like California, where atheist families attend, as a counter to other Christian families going to church.
And there you have it. How does this make "atheism" in to a movement?
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Most people I've seen interviewed on this subject refuse said vote because they don't trust someone who doesn't believe in their god.
That is true. And, the reason for that distrust stems from the things I mentioned in my previous post. Again, the most high-profile atheists we've seen have this vendetta against Christianity, to eliminate it, not simply to "live and let live", as it were.
Even were that not the case, any person who votes for a political candidate based on likability as opposed to intellect and qualification is doing themselves a disservice by not voting for the most qualified candidate.
Or simply find a comparably qualified fellow, who is a believer....PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
;D
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Again, the most high-profile atheists we've seen have this vendetta against Christianity,
Who exactly are you referring to here? Some american politicians or people like Stalin(which would be a bit misdirected)?
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And there you have it. How does this make "atheism" in to a movement?
Per the American Atheists, Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth – for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment.
Sounds like a movement to me!!! You may feel differently.
As for the aformentioned humanist centers,
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686828,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686828,00.html)
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Not sure if that video tells us this, but scientists have been able to manipulate the DNA of single cell organisms to replicate forever - they never die.
hella cells are found in cancer - they can replicate forever in virtually any environment - even the vacum of space :o
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Per the American Atheists, Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth – for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment.
Sounds like a movement to me!!! You may feel differently.
As for the aformentioned humanist centers,
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686828,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686828,00.html)
They can drink a big cup of piss for all I care.
This demonstrates perfectly why I think the term atheism should be abolished. You just now in a indirect way lumped me together with those people even though I have nothing in common with them or don't even know them. Those people obviously has an agenda of some sort.
"An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment."
Where do they get this shit? An IQ 20 buffoon could potentially not believe in a deity but it doesn't have to make him/her an intellectual or compassionate. You're not required to do or believe anything just because you have a disbelief in deities.
Drop "atheism".
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It depends on who you ask. In fact, Beach Bum and I discussed this a while ago, referring to what I called "un-churches"; that is, humanist centers in places like California, where atheist families attend, as a counter to other Christian families going to church.
So basically a church for non-believers. Awww, people just wanna belong. Human beings are so pathetic. And what happens 50-100 yrs from now? Said Atheists then have a book that details the tenants of non-believing, and if you don't follow these state tenants, you are not a non believer and then must be ostracized? Sounds like a religion to me.
I firmly believe Humans have a "worship" complex. We worships Gods, cars, people, currency, bricks, houses, trees, frogs, birds, mountains, volcanoes, bodies of water, etc. If you think about it, it's quite stupid actually.
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16 pages, now!? Let me guess. MCWAY is still counter-punching with sidesteps and sophistry, mixed with a soupcon of anecdote. Oh brother.
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16 pages, now!? Let me guess. MCWAY is still counter-punching with sidesteps and sophistry, mixed with a soupcon of anecdote. Oh brother.
It is Gods Will.
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not reading all this....so was the ark found or not?
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not reading all this....so was the ark found or not?
Yes, in MCWAY's backyard.
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Yes, in MCWAY's backyard.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
And apparently Moses is still alive and posting on this thread under MCWACKYS account. That is the only explanation I can see for this continued foolishness from that account.
Seriously though, she has a taken a horrific pummeling and thrashing here.
Logic, Reality, Science, and Facts have just run a gang bang on her for the last dozen pages. Hell as stupid as Coach is (and that is a lot), he was smart enough to stay out of his own thread for the most part.
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BWHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
And apparently Moses is still alive and posting on this thread under MCWACKYS account. That is the only explanation I can see for this continued foolishness from that account.
Seriously though, she has a taken a horrific pummeling and thrashing here.
Logic, Reality, Science, and Facts have just run a gang bang on her for the last dozen pages. Hell as stupid as Coach is (and that is a lot), he was smart enough to stay out of his own thread for the most part.
And what alleged alternate universe did this occur? Because it sure didn't happen here from you, Chimps, or anyone else.
But, since the two of you seem to be involved in your own make-out fest, I will let you "gents" continue to get your Brokeback on.
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MCWAY you didn't answer the question I had about feeding the animals. You state that at least 16,000 animals were on board the ark. If it takes 1 minute to feed 2 animals, it would take 5.5 days for just ONE feeding. And that's without a break. So not only do you have to feed the animals, but whoever is doing it has to feed themselves and also rest.
Give a reasonable answer to how this was done.
I didn't see your initial question.
I looked for the aforementioned referenced book, Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, which I bought a few years ago, this weekend. The last time someone asked me the very question you just asked, I gave the detailed answer from a particular chapter, covering that issue. Many of my books are still packed away, since I moved (including that one).
When I find my book, I will shoot the particulars to you.
Oldschool,
I did not find my book, yet. However, this a somewhat brief, and I stress, brief summation of some of the items covered, regarding the Ark and care for the animals.
Caring for the animals
Many scoffers regarding the Genesis Flood state that it would have been impossible for the eight-person crew of the ark to have adequately cared for all the animals. This supposition is due to a common misconception, based on the theory of human and societal evolution, that ancient peoples were not advanced enough for such a seemingly massive responsibility.
Yet, while it is true that we have more of certain types of modern technology at our disposal today, the ancients were in many respects very ingenious. Consider the seven wonders of the ancient world, which included the pyramids of Egypt, the hanging gardens of Babylon and many other notable man-made works. Many of these marvels of construction have never been duplicated since.
Much time would have been saved in the care of animals if laborsaving devices had been incorporated into the design of the ark. In reality most of the animals would have required very little if any care once loaded onto the ark. With the proper technology Noah could have built self-sustaining cage and confinement systems that would have required little human attention. And even without the proper technology, Noah had God to guide him.
The ark likely made use of self-feeding, self-watering and self-cleaning technologies. Such laborsaving designs were fairly common knowledge in the ancient world.
The cages could have been equipped with a mesh-type floor and slanted waste system to move animal wastes into a gutter. Once in the gutter the waste could have been allowed to either dry (becoming odorless and inert), or be biologically composted by earthworms and bacteria, or it could have been dumped overboard by means of a slanted trough leading to the exterior. For the larger animals the stalls could have been built with slatted floors. These containment areas would have been large enough to allow the wastes to collect and become dry and inert. None of the waste would have required human handling.
Food could have been preloaded into a chute or container on the side of the cages, enabling the animals to self-feed. Enough food would have been loaded into the chutes to last for long periods of time. Extra food would have been located in overhead bins or nearby. This same technique is used today in the animal industry to increase labor efficiency. This would have greatly reduced the time needed to feed the various animals.
Water could have been piped to self-filling bowls or troughs. The water could have been gathered through a rainwater cistern system or might have been preloaded before the Flood. Ancient people commonly made indoor pipes from reeds, baked clay and bamboo tubing.
The ark was not a floating zoo. Animals kept in a zoo require much room, specialized food and individual attention. The ark was an emergency vessel built by Noah under God's special and specific guidance.
It was more in keeping with the conditions found in modern animal laboratories or mass production animal factories, which are crowded but relatively clean environments.
Nature of animals a factor
It is possible that many animals, which are not considered classic hibernators, have the latent ability to greatly lower their metabolic rates (Terry Vaughan, Mammalogy, 1986, pp. 421, 469-471). Such lowered metabolic rates can be brought on by several factors including temperature fluctuations, unavailability of food and water, variability of light and other environmental stimuli.
Many rodent and small mammals go into torpor during the course of their daily cycle. During this torpor animals do not eat, drink or produce any waste. Although the ark's crew could have cared for all the animals, this need would have been greatly reduced if some of the ark's inhabitants had either hibernated or gone into torpor.
When all the facts are considered, the crew of the ark could have cared for thousands of animals. Data from animal husbandry studies have shown that a few people can care for tens of thousands of animals (John Owen, Cattle Feeding, 1983, p. 101; E.C. Miller and E.F. Hodges, "One Man Feeds 5,000 Cattle or 60,000 Broilers," 1970 Yearbook of Agriculture (USA), p. 57).
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn47/noahsark.htm (http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn47/noahsark.htm)
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They can drink a big cup of piss for all I care.
This demonstrates perfectly why I think the term atheism should be abolished. You just now in a indirect way lumped me together with those people even though I have nothing in common with them or don't even know them. Those people obviously has an agenda of some sort.
"An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment."
Where do they get this shit? An IQ 20 buffoon could potentially not believe in a deity but it doesn't have to make him/her an intellectual or compassionate. You're not required to do or believe anything just because you have a disbelief in deities.
Drop "atheism".
Well, these folks don't seem to want it dropped. As for the agenda part, you're dead on the money with that one. Case in point, the recent suit regarding the National Day of Prayer. What we basically have is a bunch of "enlightened" atheists, blubbering about acknowledgement of someone they claim doesn't exist and complaining about a call to VOLUNTARILY do something they claim doesn't work.
And, they call Christians nuts?? ::)
But, let some whiny folks tell it, it's the mean ol' Christians pushing their agenda down everybody else's throat. When they get dragged to church, kicking and screaming and 10% of their paychecks gets siphoned to a local house of worship, then they may have a case.
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It seems like God resorts to all these unnecessary, highly awkward motives just to screw in a lightbulb. Why is he so disappointed with our behavior? Isn't he our manufacturer, what did he expect? That doesn't make sense. What makes sense, however, is man's inability to comprehend or be secure with human behavior, especially sexuality. Religion is a behavioral response to all of this, man's first attempt at philosophy.
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Oldschool,
I did not find my book, yet. However, this a somewhat brief, and I stress, brief summation of some of the items covered, regarding the Ark and care for the animals.
Caring for the animals
Many scoffers regarding the Genesis Flood state that it would have been impossible for the eight-person crew of the ark to have adequately cared for all the animals. This supposition is due to a common misconception, based on the theory of human and societal evolution, that ancient peoples were not advanced enough for such a seemingly massive responsibility.
Yet, while it is true that we have more of certain types of modern technology at our disposal today, the ancients were in many respects very ingenious. Consider the seven wonders of the ancient world, which included the pyramids of Egypt, the hanging gardens of Babylon and many other notable man-made works. Many of these marvels of construction have never been duplicated since.
Much time would have been saved in the care of animals if laborsaving devices had been incorporated into the design of the ark. In reality most of the animals would have required very little if any care once loaded onto the ark. With the proper technology Noah could have built self-sustaining cage and confinement systems that would have required little human attention. And even without the proper technology, Noah had God to guide him.
The ark likely made use of self-feeding, self-watering and self-cleaning technologies. Such laborsaving designs were fairly common knowledge in the ancient world.
The cages could have been equipped with a mesh-type floor and slanted waste system to move animal wastes into a gutter. Once in the gutter the waste could have been allowed to either dry (becoming odorless and inert), or be biologically composted by earthworms and bacteria, or it could have been dumped overboard by means of a slanted trough leading to the exterior. For the larger animals the stalls could have been built with slatted floors. These containment areas would have been large enough to allow the wastes to collect and become dry and inert. None of the waste would have required human handling.
Food could have been preloaded into a chute or container on the side of the cages, enabling the animals to self-feed. Enough food would have been loaded into the chutes to last for long periods of time. Extra food would have been located in overhead bins or nearby. This same technique is used today in the animal industry to increase labor efficiency. This would have greatly reduced the time needed to feed the various animals.
Water could have been piped to self-filling bowls or troughs. The water could have been gathered through a rainwater cistern system or might have been preloaded before the Flood. Ancient people commonly made indoor pipes from reeds, baked clay and bamboo tubing.
The ark was not a floating zoo. Animals kept in a zoo require much room, specialized food and individual attention. The ark was an emergency vessel built by Noah under God's special and specific guidance.
It was more in keeping with the conditions found in modern animal laboratories or mass production animal factories, which are crowded but relatively clean environments.
Nature of animals a factor
It is possible that many animals, which are not considered classic hibernators, have the latent ability to greatly lower their metabolic rates (Terry Vaughan, Mammalogy, 1986, pp. 421, 469-471). Such lowered metabolic rates can be brought on by several factors including temperature fluctuations, unavailability of food and water, variability of light and other environmental stimuli.
Many rodent and small mammals go into torpor during the course of their daily cycle. During this torpor animals do not eat, drink or produce any waste. Although the ark's crew could have cared for all the animals, this need would have been greatly reduced if some of the ark's inhabitants had either hibernated or gone into torpor.
When all the facts are considered, the crew of the ark could have cared for thousands of animals. Data from animal husbandry studies have shown that a few people can care for tens of thousands of animals (John Owen, Cattle Feeding, 1983, p. 101; E.C. Miller and E.F. Hodges, "One Man Feeds 5,000 Cattle or 60,000 Broilers," 1970 Yearbook of Agriculture (USA), p. 57).
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn47/noahsark.htm (http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn47/noahsark.htm)
I just read all that believe it or not and the arguments are very weak. There's no real evidence whatsoever, just a bunch of unfounded speculation that doesn't necessarily translate in to a functioning Ark. Pretty pathetic to say that "god" helped Noah build the thing and therefore every potential problem is solved. You might just as well say it's all a matter of faith, which it actually is.
I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously that actually believes that the Noah's Ark is for real, especially when there is no evidence of a world wide flood, there is more than adequate explanations for the origins of those myths and the impossible logistics of having every single species of earth dumped in to a boat. If you can believe that then you are able to believe just about ANYTHING.
You believe in it because you have to, due to your dogmatic faith.
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It seems like God resorts to all these unnecessary, highly awkward motives just to screw in a lightbulb. Why is he so disappointed with our behavior? Isn't he our manufacturer, what did he expect? That doesn't make sense. What makes sense, however, is man's inability to comprehend or be secure with human behavior, especially sexuality. Religion is a behavioral response to all of this, man's first attempt at philosophy.
I beg to differ. That would be your having a son and you raise him and give him the environment, in which to become a responsible law-abiding citizen. Yet, he ends up being a crackhead. Are you going to say to yourself, "what did you expect?"
It seems man understands his nature and behavior all too will. And some forms of philosophy appear to be nothing more than man, trying to justify what he knows is wrong (according to Scripture).
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I just read all that believe it or not and the arguments are very weak. There's no real evidence whatsoever, just a bunch of unfounded speculation that doesn't necessarily translate in to a functioning Ark. Pretty pathetic to say that "god" helped Noah build the thing and therefore every potential problem is solved. You might just as well say it's all a matter of faith, which it actually is.
No more pathetic than claiming that something just "occured", no guidance, no sentient involvement, no nothing. That would be every bit the "matter of faith" that you claim is the case with Noah's guidance for the Ark.
I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously that actually believes that the Noah's Ark is for real, especially when there is no evidence of a world wide flood, there is more than adequate explanations for the origins of those myths and the impossible logistics of having every single species of earth dumped in to a boat. If you can believe that then you are able to believe just about ANYTHING.
You'll excuse me, if I don't break into tears, because of that. Besides, as has been explained beforehand, nowhere does it state the every single species was dumped into a boat.
You believe in it because you have to, due to your dogmatic faith.
Incorrect!! I don't believe in it because I have to do so. I believe because I choose to do so. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
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I beg to differ. That would be your having a son and you raise him and give him the environment, in which to become a responsible law-abiding citizen. Yet, he ends up being a crackhead. Are you going to say to yourself, "what did you expect?"
People are not omnipotent. Ridiculous analogy.
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I beg to differ. That would be your having a son and you raise him and give him the environment, in which to become a responsible law-abiding citizen. Yet, he ends up being a crackhead. Are you going to say to yourself, "what did you expect?"
I don't understand every piece of encoded DNA in my son, every fiber of being, nor do I know how the future plays out. I can't expect anything for certain. God supposedly does.
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People are not omnipotent. Ridiculous analogy.
No one said they were. But, when you set before them right and wrong and they choose wrong, why bellyache about the Divine not stepping in on their free will and keeping them from what normally happens, when you do what's wrong?
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No more pathetic than claiming that something just "occured", no guidance, no sentient involvement, no nothing. That would be every bit the "matter of faith" that you claim is the case with Noah's guidance for the Ark.
Where do I claim this? If you're gonna go down the path with this argument I'm sure you already know about this thing called infinite regression.
You'll excuse me, if I don't break into tears, because of that. Besides, as has been explained beforehand, nowhere does it state the every single species was dumped into a boat.
Hey it's cool, you obviously have thick skin which is good if you're gonna have a serious debate trying to prove the things written in the bible.
Incorrect!! I don't believe in it because I have to do so. I believe because I choose to do so. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
Sure.
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Where do I claim this? If you're gonna go down the path with this argument I'm sure you already know about this thing called infinite regression.
Didn't say you made the claim. My point stands, nonetheless.
Hey it's cool, you obviously have thick skin which is good if you're gonna have a serious debate trying to prove the things written in the bible.
I've had it long before now, posting on this forum. So, this ain't my first barbecue, as the saying goes, not by a long shot. I don't have a problem with serious debates.
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No one said they were.
By comparing humans to god, yes you are.
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And what alleged alternate universe did this occur? Because it sure didn't happen here from you, Chimps, or anyone else.
But, since the two of you seem to be involved in your own make-out fest, I will let you "gents" continue to get your Brokeback on.
This universe. This thread.
I have asked numerous times for proof that this flood was directly caused by God. Instead you whine, gnash your teeth and dance around talking about "a" flood, or debating cultures describing a flood, or evidence there was a flood. Yet you have not addressed the question I have asked about directly linking this flood to Gods hand.
You are just a tard trying to convince people you have the answer to something that is nothing more than a fairy tale being supported by your own flawed opinion and idiotic bleating.
But if you must live in La La Land with delusions like that just to cope with the day, so be it.
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By comparing humans to god, yes you are.
Exactly.
Now she will come back with a three paragraph answer to explain why she said that, but what she really meant to say was different because.. blah blah blah....
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No more pathetic than claiming that something just "occured", no guidance, no sentient involvement, no nothing. That would be every bit the "matter of faith" that you claim is the case with Noah's guidance for the Ark.
Except the evidence does point in the direction of an uncaused universe. It isn't a faith issue. I believe I made reference to this in the "Hadron Collider - Black Hole thread ( or something like that )" with links to corroborating evidence supporting this hypothesis.
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This universe. This thread.
I have asked numerous times for proof that this flood was directly caused by God. Instead you whine, gnash your teeth and dance around talking about "a" flood, or debating cultures describing a flood, or evidence there was a flood. Yet you have not addressed the question I have asked about directly linking this flood to Gods hand.
That's due to your pitiful inability to read, coupled with your continued exercise in buffoonery. The debating cultures, numerous ones worldwide, citing a global flood destroying life on Earth points to a universal source.
And, of all those citing the use of a vessel to store man and animals, we have two accounts with any degree of specifics regarding the dimensions and composition of that vessel. Of those two, one gives the dimensions of a floating vessel, with a ratio of 6:1 length-to-width, a proven commodity for stability. The other is in the shape of a cube.
That, along with some of the items I've posted earlier, shows that such a Flood is no mere coincidence of feat of chance, or run-of-the-mill natural phenomena.
You are just a tard trying to convince people you have the answer to something that is nothing more than a fairy tale being supported by your own flawed opinion and idiotic bleating.
Once again, the various cultures that have cited a global Flood as destroying life on Earth points that the only tard you'll find will be located at your nearest bathroom mirror.
But, don't take my word for it:
For there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.” Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July–August 1905, p. 203.
But if you must live in La La Land with delusions like that just to cope with the day, so be it.
As this has nothing to do with my coping with this or any other day, I'll just file this under your ever-increasing file of mush-mouthed silliness.
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Why did God allow the flood in the first place? Is he an absentee landlord?
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Why did God allow the flood in the first place? Is he an absentee landlord?
He called in sick that day.
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Next they will go look for the Master Ring.
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That's due to your pitiful inability to read, coupled with your continued exercise in buffoonery. The debating cultures, numerous ones worldwide, citing a global flood destroying life on Earth points to a universal source.
And, of all those citing the use of a vessel to store man and animals, we have two accounts with any degree of specifics regarding the dimensions and composition of that vessel. Of those two, one gives the dimensions of a floating vessel, with a ratio of 6:1 length-to-width, a proven commodity for stability. The other is in the shape of a cube.
That, along with some of the items I've posted earlier, shows that such a Flood is no mere coincidence of feat of chance, or run-of-the-mill natural phenomena.
Once again, the various cultures that have cited a global Flood as destroying life on Earth points that the only tard you'll find will be located at your nearest bathroom mirror.
But, don't take my word for it:
For there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.” Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July–August 1905, p. 203.
As this has nothing to do with my coping with this or any other day, I'll just file this under your ever-increasing file of mush-mouthed silliness.
*YAWN*
But that wasn't my question. I was not asking anything about whether there was a flood or not. Or whether the ark blah blah blah... whatever.
Hell, for the sake for argument I will give you that there was a flood and Noah built an ark.
My question is where is the proof this flood was caused by God. Very simple question. Yet as the tard you are, you can't seem to understand it.
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Why did God allow the flood in the first place? Is he an absentee landlord?
Allowed? Well yes, that could be it. Because MCWACKY hasn't answered my simple question of where is proof that God caused the flood in the first place. Since it is obvious he didn't cause the flood, maybe he did indeed allow it.
Watching Christards dance around when told to give a specific answer is always amusing.
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This supposition is due to a common misconception, based on the theory of human and societal evolution, that ancient peoples were not advanced enough for such a seemingly massive responsibility.
I doubt it was a theory. Back then even herders didn't have more than 1,000 animals at a time.
Much time would have been saved in the care of animals if laborsaving devices had been incorporated into the design of the ark. In reality most of the animals would have required very little if any care once loaded onto the ark. With the proper technology Noah could have built self-sustaining cage and confinement systems that would have required little human attention. And even without the proper technology, Noah had God to guide him.
I believe this is a reach here. The technologies spoken of were from Egyptians primarily at the time. Why did god "bestow" this knowledge to them know full well they would use it and pay homage to other gods? Again this is assuming that the technology at the time was available.
The ark likely made use of self-feeding, self-watering and self-cleaning technologies. Such laborsaving designs were fairly common knowledge in the ancient world.
How did the carnivors self feed? They needed to eat fresh meat daily, which would mean more than 2 of each animal had to have been brought aboard.
Food could have been preloaded into a chute or container on the side of the cages, enabling the animals to self-feed. Enough food would have been loaded into the chutes to last for long periods of time. Extra food would have been located in overhead bins or nearby. This same technique is used today in the animal industry to increase labor efficiency. This would have greatly reduced the time needed to feed the various animals.
Again this might work for grain fed animals, but not the carnivors.
Water could have been piped to self-filling bowls or troughs. The water could have been gathered through a rainwater cistern system or might have been preloaded before the Flood. Ancient people commonly made indoor pipes from reeds, baked clay and bamboo tubing.
Lol, if it rained for 40 days and nights, I wouldn't think water would have to be stored.
The ark was not a floating zoo. Animals kept in a zoo require much room, specialized food and individual attention. The ark was an emergency vessel built by Noah under God's special and specific guidance.
Though not a floating zoo, the animals still had to be taken care of with decent attention since they were considered (according to the story) the LAST of their kind. If an animal got sick, which in zoo's is a very common, unless the right attention and care was done, the animals could die.
It was more in keeping with the conditions found in modern animal laboratories or mass production animal factories, which are crowded but relatively clean environments.
Mass produced species of animals are of usually one type. Chicken farm, cattle farm, etc. We're talking ALL of the animals who don't eat, sleep, excrete, etc. the same at all.
It is possible that many animals, which are not considered classic hibernators, have the latent ability to greatly lower their metabolic rates (Terry Vaughan, Mammalogy, 1986, pp. 421, 469-471). Such lowered metabolic rates can be brought on by several factors including temperature fluctuations, unavailability of food and water, variability of light and other environmental stimuli.
Many rodent and small mammals go into torpor during the course of their daily cycle. During this torpor animals do not eat, drink or produce any waste. Although the ark's crew could have cared for all the animals, this need would have been greatly reduced if some of the ark's inhabitants had either hibernated or gone into torpor.
When all the facts are considered, the crew of the ark could have cared for thousands of animals. Data from animal husbandry studies have shown that a few people can care for tens of thousands of animals (John Owen, Cattle Feeding, 1983, p. 101; E.C. Miller and E.F. Hodges, "One Man Feeds 5,000 Cattle or 60,000 Broilers," 1970 Yearbook of Agriculture (USA), p. 57).[/i]
Again we speaking here of 1 kind of species. If all the animals on the ark were cattle, I'd probably believe this. But they weren't. Different diets, and different animals. So to say that being able to feed the animals like they do cattle would be wrong.
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*YAWN*
But that wasn't my question. I was not asking anything about whether there was a flood or not. Or whether the ark blah blah blah... whatever.
Hell, for the sake for argument I will give you that there was a flood and Noah built an ark.
My question is where is the proof this flood was caused by God. Very simple question. Yet as the tard you are, you can't seem to understand it.
Listen to what you just said. Why exactly would Noah be building an Ark, to survive a flood, as opposed to simply fleeing for higher grounds, as is typically done?
The simple answer would be that he had warning IN ADVANCE of the scale and magnitude of such a disaster and ample time to make such preparations. Take a wild guess as to how he got such notice, to build something of that size to last for that duration.
Once again, your question has been answered and once again, it's the simple things that zip right over your cranium.
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I doubt it was a theory. Back then even herders didn't have more than 1,000 animals at a time.
I believe this is a reach here. The technologies spoken of were from Egyptians primarily at the time. Why did god "bestow" this knowledge to them know full well they would use it and pay homage to other gods? Again this is assuming that the technology at the time was available.
How did the carnivors self feed? They needed to eat fresh meat daily, which would mean more than 2 of each animal had to have been brought aboard.
Again this might work for grain fed animals, but not the carnivors.
Lol, if it rained for 40 days and nights, I wouldn't think water would have to be stored.
Though not a floating zoo, the animals still had to be taken care of with decent attention since they were considered (according to the story) the LAST of their kind. If an animal got sick, which in zoo's is a very common, unless the right attention and care was done, the animals could die.
Mass produced species of animals are of usually one type. Chicken farm, cattle farm, etc. We're talking ALL of the animals who don't eat, sleep, excrete, etc. the same at all.
Again we speaking here of 1 kind of species. If all the animals on the ark were cattle, I'd probably believe this. But they weren't. Different diets, and different animals. So to say that being able to feed the animals like they do cattle would be wrong.
That's why I'm still looking for my book. It goes into far more detail, regarding those very questions you just asked (and more).
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Listen to what you just said. Why exactly would Noah be building an Ark, to survive a flood, as opposed to simply fleeing for higher grounds, as is typically done?
The simple answer would be that he had warning IN ADVANCE of the scale and magnitude of such a disaster and ample time to make such preparations. Take a wild guess as to how he got such notice, to build something of that size to last for that duration.
Once again, your question has been answered and once again, it's the simple things that zip right over your cranium.
LOL. You can't even be definitive, can you!? Just answer the question.
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LOL. You can't even be definitive, can you!? Just answer the question.
I see the lack of reading comprehension is catching. The same entity that sent the Flood would be the same One who gave Noah instructions on how to survive such a Flood.
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I see the lack of reading comprehension is catching. The same entity that sent the Flood would be the same One who gave Noah instructions on how to survive such a Flood.
Still not definitive. ;)
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I see the lack of reading comprehension is catching. The same entity that sent the Flood would be the same One who gave Noah instructions on how to survive such a Flood.
If God was able to intervene and create a flood, then why couldn't god save the animals? Why did he start the flood? To purge the world? What about fishes? If the world filled up with fresh water how did the ocean animals survive. You just can't take a salt water fish out of the ocean and plop it in a lake and think it would survive.
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If God was able to intervene and create a flood, then why couldn't god save the animals? Why did he start the flood?
Dramatic effect.
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Dramatic effect.
Couldn't he just CGI it?
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Listen to what you just said. Why exactly would Noah be building an Ark, to survive a flood, as opposed to simply fleeing for higher grounds, as is typically done?
The simple answer would be that he had warning IN ADVANCE of the scale and magnitude of such a disaster and ample time to make such preparations. Take a wild guess as to how he got such notice, to build something of that size to last for that duration.
Once again, your question has been answered and once again, it's the simple things that zip right over your cranium.
That has nothing to do with what I asked.
My question has nothing to do with Noah.
My question has nothing to do with the ark.
My question has nothing to do with the actual flood itself.
I am asking for proof that God commanded a flood and not Mother Nature. Where is proof? Hell, he could have been like most old people and had an itchy knee before a storm came for all anyone knows. It is said God sent the flood. I want to see some proof that God was behind this.
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The same entity that sent the Flood
Proof that this Supreme Being caused the flood and not Mother Nature is located where?
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If God was able to intervene and create a flood, then why couldn't god save the animals? Why did he start the flood? To purge the world? What about fishes? If the world filled up with fresh water how did the ocean animals survive. You just can't take a salt water fish out of the ocean and plop it in a lake and think it would survive.
Maybe he already killed off all the fishes with that meteor that he sent crashing into Earth much earlier when he got tired of those pesky dinosaurs and decided they needed to be killed off.
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I myself would just like to know where all that water came from. God's teapot?
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You guys arguing with McBible are wasting your time, he never has anything concrete to post except 'faith' and 'because god said so' there's a thread in the religion section of this board that's grown to almost 20 pages of nonsense with his dribble.
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You guys arguing with McBible are wasting your time, he never has anything concrete to post except 'faith' and 'because god said so' there's a thread in the religion section of this board that's grown to almost 20 pages of nonsense with his dribble.
Because like most religious nuts she is too stupid to realize that she has been whipped and exposed and instead of offering anything of substance to the discussion, she instead resorts to trying to pass anecdotal bullshit off as facts.
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Maybe he already killed off all the fishes with that meteor that he sent crashing into Earth much earlier when he got tired of those pesky dinosaurs and decided they needed to be killed off.
Aren't dinosaurs fabricated by the Jews? Wasn't that a simpsons episode?
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If God was able to intervene and create a flood, then why couldn't god save the animals? Why did he start the flood? To purge the world? What about fishes? If the world filled up with fresh water how did the ocean animals survive. You just can't take a salt water fish out of the ocean and plop it in a lake and think it would survive.
or vice versa. Fresh water fish being thrown into salty water, not to mention dramatic differences in water temp.
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Why exactly would Noah be building an Ark, to survive a flood, as opposed to simply fleeing for higher grounds, as is typically done?
The simple answer would be that he had warning IN ADVANCE of the scale and magnitude of such a disaster and ample time to make such preparations. Take a wild guess as to how he got such notice, to build something of that size to last for that duration.
But the bible was written after the flood, so couldn't the story be made to fit a sequence of previous events?
We have a much higher chance now of perishing as a species from a meteor or comet hit, rather than a flood. How have we prepped for this? Is there someone out there now who has been commanded by god to take up this task?
Any preps made now are done by scientists, which by majority are non believers in god or any entity. In fact without the non believer scientists, we wouldn't have the information of cosmic events that are currently happening.
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That has nothing to do with what I asked.
My question has nothing to do with Noah.
My question has nothing to do with the ark.
My question has nothing to do with the actual flood itself.
I am asking for proof that God commanded a flood and not Mother Nature. Where is proof? Hell, he could have been like most old people and had an itchy knee before a storm came for all anyone knows. It is said God sent the flood. I want to see some proof that God was behind this.
Mother Nature is not going to give advance warning for a flood of that magnitude, let alone provide one man and his family specific instructions on how to what to build to survive such a catastrophe and how to build it, whose dimensions just happen to be made for stability.
Yet, that's what we have for Noah and the Ark: A Divine warning, specific instructions on how to survive a massive catastrophe, what to store, how to store, etc.
You guys arguing with McBible are wasting your time, he never has anything concrete to post except 'faith' and 'because god said so' there's a thread in the religion section of this board that's grown to almost 20 pages of nonsense with his dribble.
Wrong again!! At no time have I made the statement about just "faith" or simply "because God said so", hence the reason I provided the links and references that I did.
Because like most religious nuts she is too stupid to realize that she has been whipped and exposed and instead of offering anything of substance to the discussion, she instead resorts to trying to pass anecdotal bullshit off as facts.
Hardly!!! I've offered the substance. The fact that you've had to resort to calling me a girl (perhaps in an effort to mask your Brokeback tendencies....not that there's anything wrong with that) pretty much states how empty your rhetoric has become....or continues to be.
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But the bible was written after the flood, so couldn't the story be made to fit a sequence of previous events?
That could be said about the other references to the Flood as well; yet the Genesis account has the most level of detail, even more than the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, from which the Genesis account was supposedly copied.
We have a much higher chance now of perishing as a species from a meteor or comet hit, rather than a flood. How have we prepped for this? Is there someone out there now who has been commanded by god to take up this task?
Any preps made now are done by scientists, which by majority are non believers in god or any entity. In fact without the non believer scientists, we wouldn't have the information of cosmic events that are currently happening.
If a meteor or comet hit this planet, there's not a darn thing any scientists can do about it. At best, they can simply observe and predict.
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MCWAY I have this friend that is really interested in middle eastern/egyptian mythology and he would like to learn more about this flood. Do you have any links with empirical evidence proving that this flood happened? He'd appreciate it a whole lot.
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Mother Nature is not going to give advance warning for a flood of that magnitude, let alone provide one man and his family specific instructions on how to what to build to survive such a catastrophe and how to build it, whose dimensions just happen to be made for stability.
Yet, that's what we have for Noah and the Ark: A Divine warning, specific instructions on how to survive a massive catastrophe, what to store, how to store, etc.
Wrong again!! At no time have I made the statement about just "faith" or simply "because God said so", hence the reason I provided the links and references that I did.
Hardly!!! I've offered the substance. The fact that you've had to resort to calling me a girl (perhaps in an effort to mask your Brokeback tendencies....not that there's anything wrong with that) pretty much states how empty your rhetoric has become....or continues to be.
Links to what !? LOL references from the bible ?!?! why don't you provide us with some evidence, hard facts, proof of concept, etc.
where is the proof to your god existing or ever having existed !?!? a storybook written 2,000 years ago by simpleton's ?!!?
show me that a god exists (and don't say look at the world around you, that's evolution)
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Why did God allow the flood in the first place?
Don't know but If someone believes this fairytale they concede he's the biggest mass murderer the world has ever known...
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Don't know but If someone believes this fairytale they concede he's the biggest mass murderer the world has ever known...
exactly ! in the bible Satan was said to have killed 10 people and God the whole-fucking-planet hahahahahaha whose the bad guy? ;D
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Don't know but If someone believes this fairytale they concede he's the biggest mass murderer the world has ever known...
God does things because it is his pleasure to do so. Plus, I'd wager the statute of limitations has long expired on this one. Or the trouble you'd have to go to to get a process server willing to hit God with a summons? And what jurisdiction to try Him in!? And you'd better believe God would drag the proceedings on into eternity. Be a logistical nightmare.
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Don't know but If someone believes this fairytale they concede he's the biggest mass murderer the world has ever known...
Hahaha, seriously..
Might as well start worshipping Hitler or Charles Manson ;)
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;D ;D ;D bravo fellas...
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exactly ! in the bible Satan was said to have killed 10 people and God the whole-fucking-planet hahahahahaha whose the bad guy? ;D
LOL! Hail Satan!
;)
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Oldschool,
I finally found my book. Wouldn't you know it, the box was the one stacked right over my old muscle magazines. It was still sealed, no less.
Many of your questions fall under Chapter 8, entitled "Manpower Studies: Eight People Care for 16,000 Animals"
Here's an excerpt:
Quantifying the Time Spent on Animal-Care Chores on the Ark.
The most relevant labor studies to tha Ark situation are those which give specific tiem allowances, under non-mechanized conditions, for the feeding, watering, and waste disposal for large numbers of animals. I have examined many such studies and summarized many of them in Tables 9 and 10. (the labor involved in waste management [table 11] is discussed in the ensuing chapter). In order to facilitate comparison of one study with another, I have standardized all the studies by expressing them in terms of seconds per animals per day. I assume a ten-hour day and six-day workweek even though some work could have been done on the Sabbath, as God permits work on the Sabbath for animal-care emergencies (Luke 14:5) and even routine animal-care chores (Luke 13:15)
Here's a portion of Table 9
Table 9 Labor Requirement Studies on the Feeding of Animals
No. Animal Description Seconds/Animals/Day Reference
1 Cows Self-feeder penstyle barns vs. stanchion barns 12-24 vs. 24-48 Brown et. al. (1950)
2 Cows Nearby ground-stored feeds: hay vs. silage vs grain 18 vs. 24 vs. 30 Byers (1952)
3 Cows Self-fed vs. hand-fed hay 12 vs. 18-181 Byers (1952)
4 Cows Self-feeder silo 10.3 Anon (1954)
5 Cows Overhead chute or nearby grain 12 Byers (1952)
6 Cows Grain from feed cart 30 Byers (1952)
References:
Brown, L.H, Cargill, B. F. and B. R. Bookhout, 1950. Pen-tpe dairy Barns. Michigan Agricultural Experiment Station Special Bulletin No. 363.; Byers, G. B. 1952. Effect of work methods and building designs on building costs and labor efficiency for daily chores. Kentucky Agricultural Experiment Station Bulletin No. 569.
Carter, D. G. and W. E. Carroll 1943. Labor-saving equipment for hog production. University of Illinois Agricultural Experiment Station Circular 554; Anon 1954. Beats the silage tub. Farm Journal 78 (May 1954): 62.
Regarding you statement about carnivores, that's covered in Chapter 12: "Feeding Challenges I: Animals that Eat Fresh or Live Food"
A couple of excerpts,
Quantity of Meat Required and Food ...Only one-sixth of the total food intake on the Ark (expressed as dry matter intake) is meat or meat-equivalent. As elaborated below, both fresh and dry meat are relatively dense in nutrients and would have filled on a small fraction of the volumetric capacity of the Ark.
Economizing on Fresh Meat. Insofar as the feeding of fresh meat was necessary at all, Noah did not need to through the time consuming procedure of raising mice for the small carnivores and cattle for the larger ones. Giant tortoises could have serves as the primary source of fresh meat on the Ark. They have long been used for this purpose on long voyages, as thy can go at least several months without being fed (Campbell 1978, p. 53) or given water to drink (Blunt 1976, p. 91). In fact, many tortoises can fast at least the duration of the Ark voyage (1 year: Marcus 1981, p. 65). The use of fresh tortoises meat as food for the carnivorous animals on the Ark is facilitated on the fact that, in nature, many carnivores already eat tortoises on an opportunistic basis.
This is true, for instance, for kites (Keeling 1984, p. 12), lions (Pienaar 1969, p. 117), jaguars (Mondolfi and Hoogesteijn 1986, p 104), and hyenas (Pienaar 1969 p. 134). No manpower need have been expended to put up the tortoises on the Ark into bite-sized morsels, as carnivores (e.g. jaguars: Mondolfi and Hoogestejn 1986, p 104) simply scoop out the flesh from between the carapace and plastron without separating them.
A limited amout of fresh meat could have also been preseved by methods used by the ancients, such as salting, smoking, pickling, etc. (Jensen 1949 p. 181). However, in the event that the carnivores would not have accepted salted meat, honey could have been used by itself to preserve fresh meat for long periods of time, as had been done by the ancient Romans (Jensen 1949 p. 181).
References:
Campbell, S. 1978, Lifeboat fo Ararat. Times Books, New York
Blunt, W. 1976. The Ark in the Park. Hamish Hamiltod Ltd., London.
Marcus, L.C. 1981, Veterinary Bilogy and Medicine of Captive Amphibians and Reptiles.
Keeling, 1984, Where the Lion Trod: A Study of Forgotten Zoological Gardens Clam Productions, Surrey England.
Pienaar, U. du V. 1969, Predaator-prey relationships amonst the large mammals of the Kruger National Park. Koedoe No. 12.
Mondolfi, E and R. Hoogesteijn. 1986. Notes on the Biology and status of the Jaguar in Venezuela in Miller and Everett, op. cit
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That could be said about the other references to the Flood as well; yet the Genesis account has the most level of detail, even more than the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, from which the Genesis account was supposedly copied.
But again the detail came after the event. Did noah have a journal while he was chosen and while he lived on the water? Wouldn't that be a better account since it's at least first hand?
If a meteor or comet hit this planet, there's not a darn thing any scientists can do about it. At best, they can simply observe and predict.
Well the scientist's could at least give a time frame of when Earth would be livable again if there was a way to harbor life during the aftermath. I'm more than sure that we have a government plan of how to keep some people alive if it were to happen. We ordinary people just don't see it.
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Oldschool,
I finally found my book. Wouldn't you know it, the box was the one stacked right over my old muscle magazines. It was still sealed, no less.
Many of your questions fall under Chapter 8, entitled "Manpower Studies: Eight People Care for 16,000 Animals"
Here's an excerpt:
Quantifying the Time Spent on Animal-Care Chores on the Ark.
The most relevant labor studies to tha Ark situation are those which give specific tiem allowances, under non-mechanized conditions, for the feeding, watering, and waste disposal for large numbers of animals. I have examined many such studies and summarized many of them in Tables 9 and 10. (the labor involved in waste management [table 11] is discussed in the ensuing chapter). In order to facilitate comparison of one study with another, I have standardized all the studies by expressing them in terms of seconds per animals per day. I assume a ten-hour day and six-day workweek even though some work could have been done on the Sabbath, as God permits work on the Sabbath for animal-care emergencies (Luke 14:5) and even routine animal-care chores (Luke 13:15)
Here's a portion of Table 9
Table 9 Labor Requirement Studies on the Feeding of Animals
No. Animal Description Seconds/Animals/Day Reference
1 Cows Self-feeder penstyle barns vs. stanchion barns 12-24 vs. 24-48 Brown et. al. (1950)
2 Cows Nearby ground-stored feeds: hay vs. silage vs grain 18 vs. 24 vs. 30 Byers (1952)
3 Cows Self-fed vs. hand-fed hay 12 vs. 18-181 Byers (1952)
4 Cows Self-feeder silo 10.3 Anon (1954)
5 Cows Overhead chute or nearby grain 12 Byers (1952)
6 Cows Grain from feed cart 30 Byers (1952)
References:
Brown, L.H, Cargill, B. F. and B. R. Bookhout, 1950. Pen-tpe dairy Barns. Michigan Agricultural Experiment Station Special Bulletin No. 363.; Byers, G. B. 1952. Effect of work methods and building designs on building costs and labor efficiency for daily chores. Kentucky Agricultural Experiment Station Bulletin No. 569.
Carter, D. G. and W. E. Carroll 1943. Labor-saving equipment for hog production. University of Illinois Agricultural Experiment Station Circular 554; Anon 1954. Beats the silage tub. Farm Journal 78 (May 1954): 62.
But this only pertains to cows. What of the rhinos, gorillas, caribou, elephants, camels, sloths, etc.? This doesn't address how these animals who had much different dietary needs than cows, were fed.
Regarding you statement about carnivores, that's covered in Chapter 12: "Feeding Challenges I: Animals that Eat Fresh or Live Food"
A couple of excerpts,
Quantity of Meat Required and Food ...Only one-sixth of the total food intake on the Ark (expressed as dry matter intake) is meat or meat-equivalent. As elaborated below, both fresh and dry meat are relatively dense in nutrients and would have filled on a small fraction of the volumetric capacity of the Ark.
Economizing on Fresh Meat. Insofar as the feeding of fresh meat was necessary at all, Noah did not need to through the time consuming procedure of raising mice for the small carnivores and cattle for the larger ones. Giant tortoises could have serves as the primary source of fresh meat on the Ark. They have long been used for this purpose on long voyages, as thy can go at least several months without being fed (Campbell 1978, p. 53) or given water to drink (Blunt 1976, p. 91). In fact, many tortoises can fast at least the duration of the Ark voyage (1 year: Marcus 1981, p. 65). The use of fresh tortoises meat as food for the carnivorous animals on the Ark is facilitated on the fact that, in nature, many carnivores already eat tortoises on an opportunistic basis.
This is true, for instance, for kites (Keeling 1984, p. 12), lions (Pienaar 1969, p. 117), jaguars (Mondolfi and Hoogesteijn 1986, p 104), and hyenas (Pienaar 1969 p. 134). No manpower need have been expended to put up the tortoises on the Ark into bite-sized morsels, as carnivores (e.g. jaguars: Mondolfi and Hoogestejn 1986, p 104) simply scoop out the flesh from between the carapace and plastron without separating them.
A limited amout of fresh meat could have also been preseved by methods used by the ancients, such as salting, smoking, pickling, etc. (Jensen 1949 p. 181). However, in the event that the carnivores would not have accepted salted meat, honey could have been used by itself to preserve fresh meat for long periods of time, as had been done by the ancient Romans (Jensen 1949 p. 181).
References:
Campbell, S. 1978, Lifeboat fo Ararat. Times Books, New York
Blunt, W. 1976. The Ark in the Park. Hamish Hamiltod Ltd., London.
Marcus, L.C. 1981, Veterinary Bilogy and Medicine of Captive Amphibians and Reptiles.
Keeling, 1984, Where the Lion Trod: A Study of Forgotten Zoological Gardens Clam Productions, Surrey England.
Pienaar, U. du V. 1969, Predaator-prey relationships amonst the large mammals of the Kruger National Park. Koedoe No. 12.
Mondolfi, E and R. Hoogesteijn. 1986. Notes on the Biology and status of the Jaguar in Venezuela in Miller and Everett, op. cit
Not buying it. This is a total assumption and the thought process doesn't concur with the species of carnivores (since evolution doesn't exist according to christian religion) that inhabit the planet today.
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Sorry to burst your bubble McBible but unless noah had a badass refrigeration and freezer system say the size of a wal-mart he would not be able to sustain 16,000 animals for any amount of time... that also taking into consideration that the ark would have had to have been the size of an aircraft carrier to fit said animals and fresh food which would somehow magically have to be replenished on a boat at sea for x amount of days.. in the video from Mount Ararat the craft looks no bigger then a few cargo containers held together, hardly enough room for that sort of storage let alone a whole family of humans.
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http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/802106--is-the-latest-noah-s-ark-discovery-a-fake#article
Kurdish workers carted wood up Mt. Ararat in order to fake the discovery of Noah’s Ark, an archeologist who worked on the dig says.
On Tuesday, a group of Asian Christian evangelicals held a press conference in Turkey to announce they were “99.9 per cent” sure they’d found the biblical boat.
The claim was greeted with immediate skepticism, which seems increasingly well founded.
The bible suggests that the ark came to rest after 150 days of flooding in the “mountains of Ararat.” The mountain, located in Turkey near the border with Armenia, is an inhospitable place for both geographic and political reasons. And even the translation is suspect.
The bible specifies that the landing spot is “Urartu.” Over time Urartu became Ararat, a name that was given to the mountain long after the bible was written. So it’s not exactly clear where the bible’s authors meant. Thus, it’s slightly suspect that the ark should show up exactly where we want it to be.
Nonetheless, Ararat has drawn a steady stream of explorers for decades. Many of them have “discovered” the ark.
“I don’t know of any expedition that ever went looking for the ark and didn't find it,” said archeologist Paul Zimansky recently told National Geographic.
Ditto Noah’s Ark Ministries International. The evangelical-archeological group claims to have found the remains of the ark in a series of caverns near the peak of Ararat in 2008. Video footage provided by the group shows incongruous wooden beams jutting through the ice in a cavern. They also claim that carbon dating puts the age of the wooden beams discovered at 4,800 years old.
The scientific-creationist movement (yes, such a thing exists) has suggested that the entire radio-carbon dating process must be recalibrated. This is their way of explaining how objects can be shown to be tens of thousands of years old on a planet they believe was created out of the void 6,000 years ago.
So even they doubt Noah’s Ark Ministries, since in their time-compressed radio-carbon world, 4,800 years is far too young for the ark.
Now, someone within the Noah’s Ark Ministries camp is rubbishing the discovery.
Randall Price, an evangelical Christian, was apparently one of the original archeologists hired by the group. He has been circulating an email, alleging that the wooden beams were taken from a site near the Black Sea and then planted on Ararat. Price has stopped talking about the incident, and is involved in some sort of financial dispute with Noah’s Ark Ministries. But he did acknowledge the email to the Christian Science Monitor.
For now, the doubters have no way of directly confronting the evidence. The Noah’s Ark Ministries team intends to keep the ark’s purported location secret until they get it designated a UNESCO World Heritage site.
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There are 950,000 species of insect alone. That's 1.9 million individual insects that need to be cared for, which includes monitored breeding, since some forms of flies live for a day or so in their adult stage. Then again, there are many beetles which, as larvae, need site-specific soil to live. They're highly sensitive to minute differences in moisture and composition.
Of course to sustain spiders and other carnivorous arthropods you would need to double that number in feed stock insects.
Then there are the 30k non-insect, non-sea swelling species, many of which are sensitive to environment and food source. For example, Noah would have had to have grown eucalyptus trees onboard for the koalas alone.
Of course, first he would have had to scour every continent, including Antarctica, for every one of these 1.2 million species, and because so many species (especially insect) are nearly identical, Noah would have had to been an expert in animal classification, being especially careful not to mix two similar species of, say, fruit fly.
Of course, if you're Coach, all of this can be easily explained away as mere formality, but what's really, really impossible to believe is that President Obama could have been born in the U.S.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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i posted the article above like a week ago, they lied, they carried the shit up the moutain and fucking took pictures. It is a hoax and people like coach look stupid once again.
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There are 950,000 species of insect alone. That's 1.9 million individual insects that need to be cared for, which includes monitored breeding, since some forms of flies live for a day or so in their adult stage. Then again, there are many beetles which, as larvae, need site-specific soil to live. They're highly sensitive to minute differences in moisture and composition.
Of course to sustain spiders and other carnivorous arthropods you would need to double that number in feed stock insects.
Then there are the 30k non-insect, non-sea swelling species, many of which are sensitive to environment and food source. For example, Noah would have had to have grown eucalyptus trees onboard for the koalas alone.
Of course, first he would have had to scour every continent, including Antarctica, for every one of these 1.2 million species, and because so many species (especially insect) are nearly identical, Noah would have had to been an expert in animal classification, being especially careful not to mix two similar species of, say, fruit fly.
Of course, if you're Coach, all of this can be easily explained away as mere formality, but what's really, really impossible to believe is that President Obama could have been born in the U.S.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the known world...at that time.
Necrosis, figures, because allegedly, NASA has photos of a boat like structure (broken in two) on Ararat for years.
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the ark defnitely existed or else we wouldnt have any animals on the earth
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the ark defnitely existed or else we wouldnt have any animals on the earth
Hahahahahha...OMFG I just spit out my protein shake...bastard!
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Side topic, anyone could explain the mystery of Mount Gilboa?
Don't know, go search yourself
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Side topic, anyone could explain the mystery of Mount Gilboa?
Don't know, go search yourself
stuff don't grow well on mountains.
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stuff don't grow well on mountains.
have you seen the picture of Mount Gilboa? One side is a forest while the other is totally baron.. Reason being the hill was cursed by David when he lamented the death of Saul and Jonathan..
No science could prove anything about the weather, ground was mundane or shit like that
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But this only pertains to cows. What of the rhinos, gorillas, caribou, elephants, camels, sloths, etc.? This doesn't address how these animals who had much different dietary needs than cows, were fed.
The table doesn't just include cows. I simply cut it short, because I got tired of typing. I'd just returned from taking my wife out to dinner (Olive Garden...try the Stuffed Chicken Marsala; it's terrific ;D ).
The book goes into more detail regarding the diets of other animals, in Chapters 12 and 13. If an electronic copy were online, I'd provide the link for you to read for yourself.
Not buying it. This is a total assumption and the thought process doesn't concur with the species of carnivores (since evolution doesn't exist according to christian religion) that inhabit the planet today.
Again, you'll have to read the book for yourself. What I've posted is but a small fraction of the information.
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Sorry to burst your bubble McBible but unless noah had a badass refrigeration and freezer system say the size of a wal-mart he would not be able to sustain 16,000 animals for any amount of time... that also taking into consideration that the ark would have had to have been the size of an aircraft carrier to fit said animals and fresh food which would somehow magically have to be replenished on a boat at sea for x amount of days.. in the video from Mount Ararat the craft looks no bigger then a few cargo containers held together, hardly enough room for that sort of storage let alone a whole family of humans.
A freezer and refrigeration system would not be necessary AT ALL. I already mentioned the various ways ancient people preserved meat for long periods of time (salting, pickling, etc). Heck, even today, you can dry out meat (to make jerky), using the simplest of processes that will last FOR YEARS.
Furthermore, the Ark's size was already given, and with its volume, storing that many animals would hardly be a problem.
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Yet, that's what we have for Noah and the Ark: A Divine warning, specific instructions on how to survive a massive catastrophe, what to store, how to store, etc.
Proof. Where is it?
Hardly!!! I've offered the substance. The fact that you've had to resort to calling me a girl (perhaps in an effort to mask your Brokeback tendencies....not that there's anything wrong with that) pretty much states how empty your rhetoric has become....or continues to be.
The reason I call you a girl is simply because no man alive whose testicles have dropped post puberty is capable of the whining and feminine hysterics that you provide the rest of the board with on a daily basis.
Besides, we all know that homo traits are most common in Christians and Republicans. So you do raise question marks in that regards.
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I guess when you've wasted good tuition money at some Bible college majoring in worship arts, pimping Noah's Ark as reality on Getbig is probably only one of limited ways to justify such cost.
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Don't know but If someone believes this fairytale they concede he's the biggest mass murderer the world has ever known...
Funny thing is God also believes in abortions as well which goes against the bible thumping Pro Life whining.
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So does that mean that we are all techincally Noah's grandchildren?
Are you trying to imply that I'm related to you and that I should give money to you assholes?
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Apologist 'science' isn't science, which why the scientific community doesn't recognize this garbage.
Try finding some data to support the noah's ark fable from legitimate scientific sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Scientific_organizations
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If a meteor or comet hit this planet, there's not a darn thing any scientists can do about it.
Not a thing "God" can do about it either.
Well the scientist's could at least give a time frame of when Earth would be livable again if there was a way to harbor life during the aftermath.
Scientists could also track the path of the meteor and determine and estimated impact time and location. Does this make them Moses? Does this make the Hubble Telescope "God" because it provided them with a Divine warning?
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Apologist 'science' isn't science, which why the scientific community doesn't recognize this garbage.
Try finding some data to support the noah's ark fable from legitimate scientific sources.
ONLY THIS
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I CANT BELIEVE IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT WE STILL HAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THIS FABLE.. ???
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I CANT BELIEVE IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT WE STILL HAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THIS FABLE.. ???
Stupid people will believe anything... plus it's a way out for the scared spineless people of the world..gives them that warm blanket to stick their head under and cry , gives them some meaning, some purpose.. the sad reality is none of us know why we're here on this one planet in our solar system that (currently) supports life.
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I guess when you've wasted good tuition money at some Bible college majoring in worship arts, pimping Noah's Ark as reality on Getbig is probably only one of limited ways to justify such cost.
Strike One: I didn't attend a Bible College
Strike Two: My degree is in Mechanical Engineering
Strike Three: I didn't waste any good tuition money, as I got a full-ride scholarship, thanks to being a National Achievement Scholar in high school (all but one semester of which was at private schools).
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The table doesn't just include cows. I simply cut it short, because I got tired of typing. I'd just returned from taking my wife out to dinner (Olive Garden...try the Stuffed Chicken Marsala; it's terrific ;D ).
The book goes into more detail regarding the diets of other animals, in Chapters 12 and 13. If an electronic copy were online, I'd provide the link for you to read for yourself.
Tell me about animals that foraged. How was supply of vegetation, especially for the larger animals kept. Things like berries, roots, and even leaves die off unless they are still on the vine or branch and how did they replenish so fast if daily feedings stripped the plants of leaves, etc.?
Again, you'll have to read the book for yourself. What I've posted is but a small fraction of the information.
Possibilities always lie within trying to prove evidence. Probability is usually the right answer. Probability is that this was a great epic story, not unlike any of the other Greek stories written at about the same time of the bible.
I know your faith is what you rely on for hope, but as an engineer I'm more than sure you have doubts about some of the stories based on the much more vast knowledge that we have today and proof that for people to live more than just 200 years olds is very, very unlikely even with medical assistance.
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There are 950,000 species of insect alone. That's 1.9 million individual insects that need to be cared for, which includes monitored breeding, since some forms of flies live for a day or so in their adult stage. Then again, there are many beetles which, as larvae, need site-specific soil to live. They're highly sensitive to minute differences in moisture and composition.
Of course to sustain spiders and other carnivorous arthropods you would need to double that number in feed stock insects.
Then there are the 30k non-insect, non-sea swelling species, many of which are sensitive to environment and food source. For example, Noah would have had to have grown eucalyptus trees onboard for the koalas alone.
Of course, first he would have had to scour every continent, including Antarctica, for every one of these 1.2 million species, and because so many species (especially insect) are nearly identical, Noah would have had to been an expert in animal classification, being especially careful not to mix two similar species of, say, fruit fly.
Of course, if you're Coach, all of this can be easily explained away as mere formality, but what's really, really impossible to believe is that President Obama could have been born in the U.S.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
insects are small they would not take up much room in noah's ark
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insects are small they would not take up much room in noah's ark
Great insight there Marty!
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There are 950,000 species of insect alone. That's 1.9 million individual insects that need to be cared for, which includes monitored breeding, since some forms of flies live for a day or so in their adult stage. Then again, there are many beetles which, as larvae, need site-specific soil to live. They're highly sensitive to minute differences in moisture and composition.
Of course to sustain spiders and other carnivorous arthropods you would need to double that number in feed stock insects.
Then there are the 30k non-insect, non-sea swelling species, many of which are sensitive to environment and food source. For example, Noah would have had to have grown eucalyptus trees onboard for the koalas alone.
Of course, first he would have had to scour every continent, including Antarctica, for every one of these 1.2 million species, and because so many species (especially insect) are nearly identical, Noah would have had to been an expert in animal classification, being especially careful not to mix two similar species of, say, fruit fly.
Of course, if you're Coach, all of this can be easily explained away as mere formality, but what's really, really impossible to believe is that President Obama could have been born in the U.S.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol that is a great post man
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ha ha...so you have some cat living for 900 years building a boat so big that even with todays modern technology would be near impossible...then gathering two of however you want to word it into said boat.then it rains simultaneously all over the entire world...And people wonder why they get laughed at for believing such drivel...
Don't forget, people lived in a whale. It's true, because it's written in a book ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Don't forget, people lived in a whale. It's true, because it's written in a book ::) ::) ::) ::)
so people living for 600-900 sum years...some other dude lived in the belly of a fish...women virgins giving birth...yea it does sound pretty reasonable...and your right the book says it which makes it so.. :D
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so people living for 600-900 sum years...some other dude lived in the belly of a fish...women virgins giving birth...yea it does sound pretty reasonable...and your right the book says it which makes it so.. :D
That may actually have been due to a mistranslation from Hebrew. Pretty funny.
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the term pareidolia describes a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant. common examples include seeing images of animals or faces in clouds, the man in the moon, and hearing hidden messages on records played in reverse. Pay attention sevashomo!!!
the word comes from the greek para -"beside", "with", or "alongside"- meaning, in this context, something faulty or wrong (as in paraphasia, disordered speech), and eidolon -"image" (the diminutive of eidos: "image", "form", "shape")-. Pareidolia is a type of apophenia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
fucking morons
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I think we're all forgetting the main point of this thread: it was started, and abandoned, by Coach, like so many of his self-ownings.
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I think we're all forgetting the main point of this thread: it was started, and abandoned, by Coach, like so many of his self-ownings.
Hard to believe Coach was actually smart enough to run away.
McWacky on the other hand... well she is still here slinging mud.
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That may actually have been due to a mistranslation from Hebrew. Pretty funny.
Virgin in Hebrew is "bethulah" and young maiden/woman in Hebrew is "almah". Mistakes translated the word "almah" to "parthenos" which in Greek means virgin.
My stance is that if the virgin birth of the bible was so significant and you didn't want to leave any doubt about the messiah's birth being of "godly" miracle, then "bethulah" should have been used in the old testament to designate it.
The passage that christians claim that jesus was of virgin birth is Isiah 7:14 which clearly in Hebrew reads: hinneh ha‘almah harah veyoledet ben; veqara’t shemo ‘immanu ’el
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Or maybe she just reproduced through ambiguous asexual means. Like toads.
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Whew. A lot of posters in this thread are on the wrong team. I rejoined the right team I had almost forgotten many months ago. Great thing about faith is that regardless of whether or not the vast majority of the world consider it some sort of mass delusion doesn't make it any less true.
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Whew. A lot of posters in this thread are on the wrong team. I rejoined the right team I had almost forgotten many months ago. Great thing about faith is that regardless of whether or not the vast majority of the world consider it some sort of mass delusion doesn't make it any less true.
Yeah and jesus walked on water ::)
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Whew. A lot of posters in this thread are on the wrong team. I rejoined the right team I had almost forgotten many months ago. Great thing about faith is that regardless of whether or not the vast majority of the world consider it some sort of mass delusion doesn't make it any less true.
Same can be said about the Easter Bunny, Zeus, and the Great Pumpkin.
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Yeah and jesus walked on water ::)
he's not the only one either !
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atheists are not allowed to hold office is certain states, the president could never announce his atheism.
There is alot more, like opposing abortion clinics, saying condoms cause aids, faith healing leading to death of innocent people, the direct undermining of education in schools by trying to teach creationism.
What states are atheists not allowed to hold office? I haven't heard that before.
Imo the only situation you stated exclusive to "religious influence" would be faith healing leading to the death of innocent people. And Christianity does not advocate faith healing to the exclusion of medical care....mainly cults do that.
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bush was at that grove place worshipping a big wooden owl and participating in mock sacrifices !
is that better?
the world needs another Buddha, Mohammad, Jesus, Caesar or Alexander to show it the light !
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A political candidate either advocating or admitting atheism/agnosticism is committing political suicide, regardless of said candidate's intellect or qualification. Many people simply would not vote for a candidate who did not share their religious allegiances.
Yngiwe, there are many links there.....would you want to give some specific examples that particularly bother you?
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Original Sin came from Adam (and Eve) having the freedom of choice. "Free will". It is stated that in heaven there is no pain or sin. Correct? Suppose one gets to heaven and wants to sin. They can't. Because sin doesn't exist in heaven. So therefore the desire to sin does not exist either. Or rather the choice to sin does not exist. Choice and desire are the basis of free will. Without it, free will can not exist.
Now I see what you are saying...thanks Lurker!
Yes, from what I can tell, once we are no longer in our "corruptible" bodies as they are now, we will no longer have the desire to sin. I don't think that necessarily negates free will though...we will still have choice and desire.
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Most men of Jesus time were 5'1, the man of the shroud of Turin is 5'11. Remember Jesus himself couldn't be picked out of a crowd and Jews used a binding shroud, not a sheet. It's a complete middle ages fabrication.
Parker, how do you know that most men of Jesus' time were 5'1"?
And what do you mean Jesus himself couldn't be picked out of a crowd?
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They can drink a big cup of piss for all I care.
PIP Soundness :(
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Same can be said about the Easter Bunny, Zeus, and the Great Pumpkin.
(http://www.reverseshot.com/files/images/pre-issue22/clips25.jpg)
The blunder of Linus was to not share with Sally his fun pills.
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Here's a question: besides hearing about it from a book, what evidence is there of a heaven and hell? Why is heaven always up and hell like in the middle of the Earth? Has there been any entity that isn't "god", be it a ghost or whatever, that has come to any believer that has verified that either exists? Or do believers just believe what they are told because it's all they know?
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My hope is that the entire group of enthusiastic non-believers in this thread somewhere down the road come to understand why they are wrong....cause there's no shame in being wrong. In a Getbig thread I can offer little more than that....it's completely outta my hands as this forum is no pathway for this kind of guidance. I had to step away and clear myself of it to realize how far away I had truly gone.....I regret my past decisions, but I'm no longer haunted by them.
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My hope is that the entire group of enthusiastic non-believers in this thread somewhere down the road come to understand why they are wrong....cause there's no shame in being wrong. In a Getbig thread I can offer little more than that....it's completely outta my hands as this forum is no pathway for this kind of guidance. I had to step away and clear myself of it to realize how far away I had truly gone.....I regret my past decisions, but I'm no longer haunted by them.
care to explain in detail why we are wrong and you are right(without faith & a book you have nothing)
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And Christianity does not advocate faith healing to the exclusion of medical care....mainly cults do that.
all religions are cults the only difference is the amount of real-estate and minds they own...
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big L dawg, you're exactly right without faith and a book you have nothing.
Oh yeah, that detailed explanation you requested....it's available in that book.....there a free copies available practically everywhere.
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big L dawg, you're exactly right without faith and a book you have nothing.
Oh yeah, that detailed explanation you requested....it's available in that book.....there a free copies available practically everywhere.
Yea I'm aware of that...care to explain why it is you dismiss other religions and there text books?
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big L dawg, despite the fact that those words were yours and not mine I'll play along briefly (as I'm heading to bed).....I've tried a number of beef jerkies and cuts of beef in my time that never hit the spot, but then I found the steak that satiated all my cravings and hungers....I've never wanted for the jerky or other cuts of beef again. That's the crude one sentence version, but says enough. If it's a theological and philosophical debate you crave I suggest a philosophical theologian; unfortunately I don't possess that skillset ...funny how the vast of majority believers don't require that though...guess they're puttin something in the communion juice cups, right? have a good night.
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big L dawg, despite the fact that those words were yours and not mine I'll play along briefly (as I'm heading to bed).....I've tried a number of beef jerkies and cuts of beef in my time that never hit the spot, but then I found the steak that satiated all my cravings and hungers....I've never wanted for the jerky or other cuts of beef again. That's the crude one sentence version, but says enough. If it's a theological and philosophical debate you crave I suggest a philosophical theologian; unfortunately I don't possess that skillset ...funny how the vast of majority believers don't require that though...guess they're puttin something in the communion juice cups, right? have a good night.
have to admit that was the type of response I was expecting...
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My hope is that the entire group of enthusiastic non-believers in this thread somewhere down the road come to understand why they are wrong....cause there's no shame in being wrong. In a Getbig thread I can offer little more than that....it's completely outta my hands as this forum is no pathway for this kind of guidance. I had to step away and clear myself of it to realize how far away I had truly gone.....I regret my past decisions, but I'm no longer haunted by them.
Don't know how we can be wrong when there's nothing to prove it. Faith is a trust in something actually being real and having hope that it will bring you joy and happiness. People have faith in spouses and significant others in not cheating on them. Of course we all now know that faith isn't always what makes something true. Once that person cheats, with evidence to prove it, faith is out the door. Unfortunately there is no way to prove that there isn't a god, but the likelyhood is much more of a possibility that there isn't because practically all "miracles" can be explained through scientific method and with man having the ability to do things like replicate life (cloning, IVF) makes the whole story of god being the "only giver of life", less likely. Having been part of a religion that's deeply embedded in my family because we grew up in it, I can say now with certainty that there is no god, and all the good things that are happening in my life are because of me, not because I'm "blessed".
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Don't know how we can be wrong when there's nothing to prove it. Faith is a trust in something actually being real and having hope that it will bring you joy and happiness. People have faith in spouses and significant others in not cheating on them. Of course we all now know that faith isn't always what makes something true. Once that person cheats, with evidence to prove it, faith is out the door. Unfortunately there is no way to prove that there isn't a god, but the likelyhood is much more of a possibility that there isn't because practically all "miracles" can be explained through scientific method and with man having the ability to do things like replicate life (cloning, IVF) makes the whole story of god being the "only giver of life", less likely. Having been part of a religion that's deeply embedded in my family because we grew up in it, I can say now with certainty that there is no god, and all the good things that are happening in my life are because of me, not because I'm "blessed".
very good post...There god gives them a warm fuzzy feeling inside...The fact that there god is a delusion created in order to make them feel that way in the first place is a mere formality...
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very good post...There god gives them a warm fuzzy feeling inside...The fact that there god is a delusion created in order to make them feel that way in the first place is a mere formality...
god is the creator. he created us. we cant create him because we arent the creator. only the creator can create the creation. the creation cant create the creator or the creator would be the creation and the creation would be the creator and if the creator is the creation then who created the creator?
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stomach hurt so I'm still awake......read the additional posts and understand completely that there's only one thing I can do for you and that's pray.....for what it's worth I will. These forums are what they are...of the world and not aligned with God. I should know, I lived and breathed them for awhile, but I'm very glad I left in recent months. Tonight has reaffirmed that there is no longer a place for me here. I should never have said or implied that anyone that disbelieved was wrong in anyway....that's like throwing gas on a fire and serves no positive purpose....for that I'm sorry. I'm human and make mistakes, but I won't make this one again. Lee Strobel has a good series of books on different facets of Christian faith....maybe they'll help. A relationship with God is a personal one....I hope y'all find that for yourselves someday soon.....it's like living life with a refocused heart and a new set of eyes.
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pray that they will come to see the majesty of he's kingdom
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stomach hurt so I'm still awake......read the additional posts and understand completely that there's only one thing I can do for you and that's pray.....for what it's worth I will. These forums are what they are...of the world and not aligned with God. I should know, I lived and breathed them for awhile, but I'm very glad I left in recent months. Tonight has reaffirmed that there is no longer a place for me here. I should never have said or implied that anyone that disbelieved was wrong in anyway....that's like throwing gas on a fire and serves no positive purpose....for that I'm sorry. I'm human and make mistakes, but I won't make this one again. Lee Strobel has a good series of books on different facets of Christian faith....maybe they'll help. A relationship with God is a personal one....I hope y'all find that for yourselves someday soon.....it's like living life with a refocused heart and a new set of eyes.
I respect you for this post...There is alot of humility in it and you do a credit to yourself and your beliefs by addressing the issue in the manner you did...There is a christian or two on here that claims moral superiority to non believers yet makes a fool of themselves constantly as every post is filled with negativity and name calling...unlike you they will slam you and talk down to you before they would ever pray for you...Although we don't agree on the subject at hand I have respect for you and wish you the best...
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Parker, how do you know that most men of Jesus' time were 5'1"?
And what do you mean Jesus himself couldn't be picked out of a crowd?
Stella, there are skeletons from Jesus's time that have been found, from Jewish burial sites to other sites, the average height of male skeletons from those times is 5'1. And wasn't it said in the bible that Jesus could not be picked out in a crowd, meaning he blended in, not some 5'11 hippie looking white guyvwith blonde hair and blue eyes.
Also, Original Sin came fom God, not Adam and Eve. Sin was created becaus God thought it up. Doesn't God know all, what we are going to do before we do it? This means, that God knew Adam and Eve were going to Sin, before they did it. And then he punished them for doing something he knew that they were going to do.
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Here's a question: besides hearing about it from a book, what evidence is there of a heaven and hell? Why is heaven always up and hell like in the middle of the Earth? Has there been any entity that isn't "god", be it a ghost or whatever, that has come to any believer that has verified that either exists? Or do believers just believe what they are told because it's all they know?
I don't know what evidence you would accept Oldschool, as even my antennae can be raised from people claiming near death experiences.
Likewise entities that aren't God coming to any live believer.... the bible talks about angels talking to people...this would indicate they came from somewhere and the indication is heaven.
I'm sure you've also heard stories as we all have about "ghosts" talking to people in our day...although if these incidences truly occurred I don't believe they are ghosts but demons (or possibly holy angels).
I think people often think of heaven as up and hell in the middle of the earth from just assuming that's the way it is ...I don't think scripture states it that way necessarily...there are certain scriptures that indicate hell is "down" but I don't really take that as being "the center of the earth." Hell is also talked about as being a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth so some people think hell is out in space somewhere.
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I don't know what evidence you would accept Oldschool, as even my antennae can be raised from people claiming near death experiences.
Likewise entities that aren't God coming to any live believer.... the bible talks about angels talking to people...this would indicate they came from somewhere and the indication is heaven.
I'm sure you've also heard stories as we all have about "ghosts" talking to people in our day...although if these incidences truly occurred I don't believe they are ghosts but demons (or possibly holy angels).
I think people often think of heaven as up and hell in the middle of the earth from just assuming that's the way it is ...I don't think scripture states it that way necessarily...there are certain scriptures that indicate hell is "down" but I don't really take that as being "the center of the earth." Hell is also talked about as being a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth so some people think hell is out in space somewhere.
Science has already explained near death experiences, I posted it in another thread..they're caused by high levels of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream when you die.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide/
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all religions are cults the only difference is the amount of real-estate and minds they own...
dawg, what is your definition of a cult?
.....I've tried a number of beef jerkies and cuts of beef in my time that never hit the spot, but then I found the steak that satiated all my cravings and hungers....I've never wanted for the jerky or other cuts of beef again. That's the crude one sentence version, but says enough.
:D :)
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man having the ability to do things like replicate life (cloning, IVF) makes the whole story of god being the "only giver of life", less likely.
Oldschool, where do you believe life came from originally?
Having been part of a religion that's deeply embedded in my family because we grew up in it,
What religion did you grow up w/? Sorry if you already told me, I don't remember.
I can say now with certainty that there is no god, and all the good things that are happening in my life are because of me, not because I'm "blessed".
Oldschool, do you also believe that all the bad things that happen in your life are because of you (or some other person)?
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Stella, there are skeletons from Jesus's time that have been found, from Jewish burial sites to other sites, the average height of male skeletons from those times is 5'1. And wasn't it said in the bible that Jesus could not be picked out in a crowd, meaning he blended in, not some 5'11 hippie looking white guyvwith blonde hair and blue eyes.
I'm not sure about what scripture you are talking about regarding Jesus not being able to be picked out of a crowd...other than a time a bunch of guys were wanting to kill Him, but He was able to walk out of there? Not sure if that's what you meant or not.
And yeah, I really doubt he was a hippie looking white guy lol... but that reminds me of Penn and Teller "proving" a contradiction that men weren't supposed to have long hair and presenting a painting of "Jesus" w/long hair ;D ....not sure when people started painting HIm as a good-looking white guy w/long hair and blue eyes....also the bible does indicate that He wasn't good-looking.
Also, Original Sin came fom God, not Adam and Eve. Sin was created becaus God thought it up. Doesn't God know all, what we are going to do before we do it? This means, that God knew Adam and Eve were going to Sin, before they did it. And then he punished them for doing something he knew that they were going to do.
Are you thinking that when people do wrong they shouldn't be disciplined because God knew they were going to do it?
I don't see that God knowing someone is going to do something is causing it. I think some people do believe that way though.
Also, Parker, have you thought much about the source where you read about the burial sites finding the 5'1" tall skeletons from Jesus' time and why you accept those claims are true? I'm not saying they aren't true (I know next to nothing about the Shroud and haven't come to any conclusions on what it is or isn't)...just want to point out that you have faith in your source as we have faith in our source.
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I don't know what evidence you would accept Oldschool, as even my antennae can be raised from people claiming near death experiences.
The best evidence for me would be a miracle that absolutely cannot be explained. An amputee having new limbs grow out immediately after praying for them by people would be a great one.
Likewise entities that aren't God coming to any live believer.... the bible talks about angels talking to people...this would indicate they came from somewhere and the indication is heaven.
I'm sure you've also heard stories as we all have about "ghosts" talking to people in our day...although if these incidences truly occurred I don't believe they are ghosts but demons (or possibly holy angels).
Today if we hear people saying they "talked" to unseen entities, the first thought is that they are mentally unstable and send them to a shrink.
I think people often think of heaven as up and hell in the middle of the earth from just assuming that's the way it is ...I don't think scripture states it that way necessarily...there are certain scriptures that indicate hell is "down" but I don't really take that as being "the center of the earth." Hell is also talked about as being a place of outer darkness and gnashing of teeth so some people think hell is out in space somewhere.
The fire and brimstone hell that many christians speak of was probably from the experiences of volcanoes. Human xacrifices were also made to "gods" of volcanoes and this ritual could easily make it's way over as a story of fire and the body burning forever in hell. And if you look at alot of christian pictorials of heaven, they usually are of the sky with clouds and sunshine showing through. Apparently jesus always looked up when he spoke with god too.
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insects are small they would not take up much room in noah's ark
leave it to marty to put it all in perspective...
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Science has already explained near death experiences, I posted it in another thread..they're caused by high levels of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream when you die.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide/
Interesting ... did you read this part?
Still, not all scientists are convinced: "The one difficulty in arguing that CO2 is the cause is that in cardiac arrests, everybody has high CO2 but only 10 percent have NDEs," said neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick of the Institute of Psychiatry at Kings College London.
What's more, in heart attack patients, Fenwick said, "there is no coherent cerebral activity which could support consciousness, let alone an experience with the clarity of an NDE."
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Oldschool, where do you believe life came from originally?
A combination of chemical reactions in the right setting. All life on the planet now is just how chemicals react with each other.
What religion did you grow up w/? Sorry if you already told me, I don't remember.
catholic
Oldschool, do you also believe that all the bad things that happen in your life are because of you (or some other person)?
Perception of bad and good is subjective. For instance if I was in love with a person that was immoral, mean and selfish (happens in relationships all the time) and that relationship didn't work out, I might think that that was a bad thing, however others around me would think it was good since the other person was a loser.
If anything I perceive as bad happened, I accept that it's just part of life and circumstance. I can control certain aspects. I would be robbed, if I went to an area where robbery is rampant. If I choose not to go there, then chances are slim.
People are good and bad, and IMO, it's their personality and upbringing that will dictate how they live their life.
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Interesting ... did you read this part?
Still, not all scientists are convinced: "The one difficulty in arguing that CO2 is the cause is that in cardiac arrests, everybody has high CO2 but only 10 percent have NDEs," said neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick of the Institute of Psychiatry at Kings College London.
What's more, in heart attack patients, Fenwick said, "there is no coherent cerebral activity which could support consciousness, let alone an experience with the clarity of an NDE."
People see and experience things when chemicals are introduced to the brain and upset natural brain neuron function. Alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, etc. have all been shown to do this. We dream and it seems so real, yet we are unconscious. There is still much of the brain we have to study and learn about to truly understand what goes on in it, but chemical reactions in the brain obviously can change people's perceptions, emotions and personality. People on anti depressants are less depressed. People who have had brain surgeries end up not having the same personality. My point is that it's not god that is in our heads guiding us. It's a combination of how we were raised and the environment we live in that helps to dictate that.
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bush was at that grove place worshipping a big wooden owl and participating in mock sacrifices !
is that better?
the world needs another Buddha, Mohammad, Jesus, Caesar or Alexander to show it the light !
To be fair to the obese one, he has a point.
The power elite, front religious organisations such as the "Big three" yet many themselves practices some sort of lucefrian sacrifices. Check out Bohemian grove.
Fact of the matter, things are not what they appear, we are just presented with what is supposed to be fact and told to accept, for example - the climate change scam that the internationalists are forever propagating.
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Interesting ... did you read this part?
Still, not all scientists are convinced: "The one difficulty in arguing that CO2 is the cause is that in cardiac arrests, everybody has high CO2 but only 10 percent have NDEs," said neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick of the Institute of Psychiatry at Kings College London.
What's more, in heart attack patients, Fenwick said, "there is no coherent cerebral activity which could support consciousness, let alone an experience with the clarity of an NDE."
Yes, that was just one person's opinion though, there are a ton of other doctors that agree with this study and have adopted it as fact. Do a google search there's a ton of stories about this.
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I can't speak in depth about science or religion, but I can relay personal experiences. I know for most this won't mean a thing, but for others it might so I'll share. As a christian, I've been attacked in the spirit many times. For example, I have awaken in the middle of the night from a state of lucid dreaming and realize that demonic forces are present there with me in my bedroom and I'm literally paralyzed with fear and have a hard time breathing. My wife is sound asleep next to me unaware of what's happening to me, but I can't move and often times it feels as though an evil shroud is somehow blanketing me...it's terrifying. In the darkness I see nothing and I hear nothing, but in the spirit I know with complete certainty that I'm being attacked....evil is around me and it hates me and what I believe. When it first happened to me years ago I didn't know what to do or what to make of it, but I learned how to combat it. Now, I use "combat it" rather loosely as me personally....well....I'm powerless to do anything. In the occassions this happens to me I call out the name of Jesus very softly and the holy spirit washes over me like a flood from head to toe and every sense of evil vanishes in that instant. I pray for God's angels to surround me and my family and protect us and again the holy spirit washes over me and my entire body literally tingles from head to toe in a second. This isn't a psychotic episode. This isn't a state of delusion. This isn't a narcotic induced scenario. These are the demonic forces of evil that attack Christians especially those both newly saved and those with renewed convictions. Satan and his minions will do all they can to place us in a state of complete unrest, anxiety, doubt and fear. Fortunately, all that is needed is the name of Jesus spoken aloud or in silent prayer and in that instant the evil vanishes in fear. See, Jesus has already won the battle..the outcome has been determined and the enemy knows this and are trying to take as many victims down with them as they can before they are beaten forever; still, tormenting believers in the interim seems to be something they enjoy. Regardless, that's the power the name of our Lord commands and it's the best example of something physical or tangible I can illustrate. As has been said on many occassions, Satan's greatest victory is convincing man that God (and Satan) do not exist. Yes, they're very real, they're very powerful, but the world dismisses both because they are blinded to the reality of their existence....this thread is absolute proof of that.
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I can't speak in depth about science or religion, but I can relay personal experiences. I know for most this won't mean a thing, but for others it might so I'll share. As a christian, I've been attacked in the spirit many times. For example, I have awaken in the middle of the night from a state of lucid dreaming and realize that demonic forces are present there with me in my bedroom and I'm literally paralyzed with fear and have a hard time breathing. My wife is sound asleep next to me unaware of what's happening to me, but I can't move and often times it feels as though an evil shroud is somehow blanketing me...it's terrifying. In the darkness I see nothing and I hear nothing, but in the spirit I know with complete certainty that I'm being attacked....evil is around me and it hates me and what I believe. When it first happened to me years ago I didn't know what to do or what to make of it, but I learned how to combat it. Now, I use "combat it" rather loosely as me personally....well....I'm powerless to do anything. In the occassions this happens to me I call out the name of Jesus very softly and the holy spirit washes over me like a flood from head to toe and every sense of evil vanishes in that instant. I pray for God's angels to surround me and my family and protect us and again the holy spirit washes over me and my entire body literally tingles from head to toe in a second. This isn't a psychotic episode. This isn't a state of delusion. This isn't a narcotic induced scenario. These are the demonic forces of evil that attack Christians especially those both newly saved and those with renewed convictions. Satan and his minions will do all they can to place us in a state of complete unrest, anxiety, doubt and fear. Fortunately, all that is needed is the name of Jesus spoken aloud or in silent prayer and in that instant the evil vanishes in fear. See, Jesus has already won the battle..the outcome has been determined and the enemy knows this and are trying to take as many victims down with them as they can before they are beaten forever; still, tormenting believers in the interim seems to be something they enjoy. Regardless, that's the power the name of our Lord commands and it's the best example of something physical or tangible I can illustrate. As has been said on many occassions, Satan's greatest victory is convincing man that God (and Satan) do not exist. Yes, they're very real, they're very powerful, but the world dismisses both because they are blinded to the reality of their existence....this thread is absolute proof of that.
I feel sorry for you. Imagine a life where none of this is a concern, where you never have to worry about angels, demons, Jesus and Satan because they simply don't exist. Wouldn't that be better?
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Man of Steel, you sure that is not Night Time Paralysis? I used to get it, and I was terrified of it.
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lovemonkey, a world without God is not a world I want to live in....a Christian walk isn't an easy one. Our time here on earth is so short in comparison to eternity that a human lifetime of of these concerns is hardly a problem in the grand scheme.
parker, in the most sincere way I can express this, no it is not any kind of night time paralysis, night terrors or those type of things people experience.
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I can't speak in depth about science or religion, but I can relay personal experiences. I know for most this won't mean a thing, but for others it might so I'll share. As a christian, I've been attacked in the spirit many times. For example, I have awaken in the middle of the night from a state of lucid dreaming and realize that demonic forces are present there with me in my bedroom and I'm literally paralyzed with fear and have a hard time breathing. My wife is sound asleep next to me unaware of what's happening to me, but I can't move and often times it feels as though an evil shroud is somehow blanketing me...it's terrifying. In the darkness I see nothing and I hear nothing, but in the spirit I know with complete certainty that I'm being attacked....evil is around me and it hates me and what I believe. When it first happened to me years ago I didn't know what to do or what to make of it, but I learned how to combat it. Now, I use "combat it" rather loosely as me personally....well....I'm powerless to do anything. In the occassions this happens to me I call out the name of Jesus very softly and the holy spirit washes over me like a flood from head to toe and every sense of evil vanishes in that instant. I pray for God's angels to surround me and my family and protect us and again the holy spirit washes over me and my entire body literally tingles from head to toe in a second. This isn't a psychotic episode. This isn't a state of delusion. This isn't a narcotic induced scenario. These are the demonic forces of evil that attack Christians especially those both newly saved and those with renewed convictions. Satan and his minions will do all they can to place us in a state of complete unrest, anxiety, doubt and fear. Fortunately, all that is needed is the name of Jesus spoken aloud or in silent prayer and in that instant the evil vanishes in fear. See, Jesus has already won the battle..the outcome has been determined and the enemy knows this and are trying to take as many victims down with them as they can before they are beaten forever; still, tormenting believers in the interim seems to be something they enjoy. Regardless, that's the power the name of our Lord commands and it's the best example of something physical or tangible I can illustrate. As has been said on many occassions, Satan's greatest victory is convincing man that God (and Satan) do not exist. Yes, they're very real, they're very powerful, but the world dismisses both because they are blinded to the reality of their existence....this thread is absolute proof of that.
Wow, I never realized how lucky I am.
I've never had to deal with any of that, Luckily.
I don't have any demons to fight against in order to not be evil. I can give to charity, love my family, do the "right thing," and be a good person without any major internal struggle with evil spirits. I never felt so blessed.
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I can't speak in depth about science or religion, but I can relay personal experiences. I know for most this won't mean a thing, but for others it might so I'll share. As a christian, I've been attacked in the spirit many times. For example, I have awaken in the middle of the night from a state of lucid dreaming and realize that demonic forces are present there with me in my bedroom and I'm literally paralyzed with fear and have a hard time breathing. My wife is sound asleep next to me unaware of what's happening to me, but I can't move and often times it feels as though an evil shroud is somehow blanketing me...it's terrifying. In the darkness I see nothing and I hear nothing, but in the spirit I know with complete certainty that I'm being attacked....evil is around me and it hates me and what I believe. When it first happened to me years ago I didn't know what to do or what to make of it, but I learned how to combat it. Now, I use "combat it" rather loosely as me personally....well....I'm powerless to do anything. In the occassions this happens to me I call out the name of Jesus very softly and the holy spirit washes over me like a flood from head to toe and every sense of evil vanishes in that instant. I pray for God's angels to surround me and my family and protect us and again the holy spirit washes over me and my entire body literally tingles from head to toe in a second. This isn't a psychotic episode. This isn't a state of delusion. This isn't a narcotic induced scenario. These are the demonic forces of evil that attack Christians especially those both newly saved and those with renewed convictions. Satan and his minions will do all they can to place us in a state of complete unrest, anxiety, doubt and fear. Fortunately, all that is needed is the name of Jesus spoken aloud or in silent prayer and in that instant the evil vanishes in fear. See, Jesus has already won the battle..the outcome has been determined and the enemy knows this and are trying to take as many victims down with them as they can before they are beaten forever; still, tormenting believers in the interim seems to be something they enjoy. Regardless, that's the power the name of our Lord commands and it's the best example of something physical or tangible I can illustrate. As has been said on many occassions, Satan's greatest victory is convincing man that God (and Satan) do not exist. Yes, they're very real, they're very powerful, but the world dismisses both because they are blinded to the reality of their existence....this thread is absolute proof of that.
I must be really lucky then. Don't believe in either, don't have paralyzing nightmares, I help others who are less fortunate, don't have stress and fear of being struck down by god or satan. All in all I lead a very happy fulfilling life without religion. The christians of the world live in fear of both god and satan. satan because of evil and god because of consequences if they do evil. It's such a great way to control people and make money off of it which is why organized religion is very profitable even though it claim non profitability. It's really too bad the technology of today couldn't be applied to testing of DNA back then. I would bet dollars to donuts that jesus was joseph's son, and that would put an end to all of the savior story.
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Well this thread didn't turn out great for a couple of posters.
LOL!!
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I can't speak in depth about science or religion, but I can relay personal experiences. I know for most this won't mean a thing, but for others it might so I'll share. As a christian, I've been attacked in the spirit many times. For example, I have awaken in the middle of the night from a state of lucid dreaming and realize that demonic forces are present there with me in my bedroom and I'm literally paralyzed with fear and have a hard time breathing. My wife is sound asleep next to me unaware of what's happening to me, but I can't move and often times it feels as though an evil shroud is somehow blanketing me...it's terrifying. In the darkness I see nothing and I hear nothing, but in the spirit I know with complete certainty that I'm being attacked....evil is around me and it hates me and what I believe. When it first happened to me years ago I didn't know what to do or what to make of it, but I learned how to combat it. Now, I use "combat it" rather loosely as me personally....well....I'm powerless to do anything. In the occassions this happens to me I call out the name of Jesus very softly and the holy spirit washes over me like a flood from head to toe and every sense of evil vanishes in that instant. I pray for God's angels to surround me and my family and protect us and again the holy spirit washes over me and my entire body literally tingles from head to toe in a second. This isn't a psychotic episode. This isn't a state of delusion. This isn't a narcotic induced scenario. These are the demonic forces of evil that attack Christians especially those both newly saved and those with renewed convictions. Satan and his minions will do all they can to place us in a state of complete unrest, anxiety, doubt and fear. Fortunately, all that is needed is the name of Jesus spoken aloud or in silent prayer and in that instant the evil vanishes in fear. See, Jesus has already won the battle..the outcome has been determined and the enemy knows this and are trying to take as many victims down with them as they can before they are beaten forever; still, tormenting believers in the interim seems to be something they enjoy. Regardless, that's the power the name of our Lord commands and it's the best example of something physical or tangible I can illustrate. As has been said on many occassions, Satan's greatest victory is convincing man that God (and Satan) do not exist. Yes, they're very real, they're very powerful, but the world dismisses both because they are blinded to the reality of their existence....this thread is absolute proof of that.
::) ::) ::)
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::) ::) ::)
LOL!
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Oldschoolflip, salvation through Christ pertains to his sacrifice in death and his resurrection....fyi.
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Oldschoolflip, salvation through Christ pertains to his sacrifice in death and his resurrection....fyi.
I want the old MOS back. :'(
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I want the old MOS back. :'(
This thread could go on 40 days and 40 nights with no resolution, just animals in starvation.
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I want the old MOS back. :'(
Right!, lol.
Look at that dribble he posted above. That type of post shows the type of mental stability a person has.
No different then parents telling their kids the BOOGYMAN will get them if they dont eat their veggies. The damn kids cant prove their parents wrong so it must be true.
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I can't speak in depth about science or religion, but I can relay personal experiences. I know for most this won't mean a thing, but for others it might so I'll share. As a christian, I've been attacked in the spirit many times. For example, I have awaken in the middle of the night from a state of lucid dreaming and realize that demonic forces are present there with me in my bedroom and I'm literally paralyzed with fear and have a hard time breathing. My wife is sound asleep next to me unaware of what's happening to me, but I can't move and often times it feels as though an evil shroud is somehow blanketing me...it's terrifying. In the darkness I see nothing and I hear nothing, but in the spirit I know with complete certainty that I'm being attacked....evil is around me and it hates me and what I believe. When it first happened to me years ago I didn't know what to do or what to make of it, but I learned how to combat it. Now, I use "combat it" rather loosely as me personally....well....I'm powerless to do anything. In the occassions this happens to me I call out the name of Jesus very softly and the holy spirit washes over me like a flood from head to toe and every sense of evil vanishes in that instant. I pray for God's angels to surround me and my family and protect us and again the holy spirit washes over me and my entire body literally tingles from head to toe in a second. This isn't a psychotic episode. This isn't a state of delusion. This isn't a narcotic induced scenario. These are the demonic forces of evil that attack Christians especially those both newly saved and those with renewed convictions. Satan and his minions will do all they can to place us in a state of complete unrest, anxiety, doubt and fear. Fortunately, all that is needed is the name of Jesus spoken aloud or in silent prayer and in that instant the evil vanishes in fear. See, Jesus has already won the battle..the outcome has been determined and the enemy knows this and are trying to take as many victims down with them as they can before they are beaten forever; still, tormenting believers in the interim seems to be something they enjoy. Regardless, that's the power the name of our Lord commands and it's the best example of something physical or tangible I can illustrate. As has been said on many occassions, Satan's greatest victory is convincing man that God (and Satan) do not exist. Yes, they're very real, they're very powerful, but the world dismisses both because they are blinded to the reality of their existence....this thread is absolute proof of that.
If you had grown up in another culture and environment, you would of arrived at different conclusions as to explain these medical conditions.
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Oldschoolflip, salvation through Christ pertains to his sacrifice in death and his resurrection....fyi.
According to the bible. What happened to all the people who died before christ? No salvation for them? And if christ died for our sins, and you accept him as your savior, then you should be able to sin all you want since your sins are taken care of by his death and ressurection, right?
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According to the bible. What happened to all the people who died before christ? No salvation for them? And if christ died for our sins, and you accept him as your savior, then you should be able to sin all you want since your sins are taken care of by his death and ressurection, right?
sorry buddy, you dont know what your talking about. The bible addresses both of those directly. So would common sense. ;)
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sorry buddy, you dont know what your talking about. The bible addresses both of those directly. So would common sense. ;)
Hey, bro. Don't be shy. Lay that shit out as explicitly as can be. Don't be shy. :)
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sorry buddy, you dont know what your talking about. The bible addresses both of those directly. So would common sense. ;)
Common sense tells me that the 10 commandments were obviously a parallel view of any king, emperor, or ruler at the time. Make up stories of any "savior" regardless of faith, are so similar to the events that made them epic. Notice there is no "thou shalt not rape", "thou shalt not cast stones" etc. Stuff that was accepted back then, that are considered horrible acts now, weren't included in the commandments.
Common sense taught me that if I prayed to god, or even the flying spaghetti monster, I would always get the same answers from both. Yes, no, or wait and see. Common sense tells me that if I followed unseen, unheard and unproven entities, I would be crazy.
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As long as you talk to God and not the other way around, you're fine.
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As long as you talk to God and not the other way around, you're fine.
Funny how that goes. Also "god told me to save those orphans" probably won't get you into the insane asylum, but "god wanted me to kill those people" might. ;D
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Someone invite the wingnuts back in to amuse us some more.
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Common sense tells me that the 10 commandments were obviously a parallel view of any king, emperor, or ruler at the time. Make up stories of any "savior" regardless of faith, are so similar to the events that made them epic. Notice there is no "thou shalt not rape", "thou shalt not cast stones" etc. Stuff that was accepted back then, that are considered horrible acts now, weren't included in the commandments.
Common sense taught me that if I prayed to god, or even the flying spaghetti monster, I would always get the same answers from both. Yes, no, or wait and see. Common sense tells me that if I followed unseen, unheard and unproven entities, I would be crazy.
The laws of Moses were based on the Ten Commandments. Thus, any laws regarding rape would fall under the 7th commandment, regarding adultery. And, rape (like adultery) was a capital offense.
As far as stones were concerned, stoning and hanging then was no different than the chair or lethal injection is now. that's simply a way capital punishment was administered.
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And the reason we do not kill people for cheating on their spouses is WHY????
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And the reason we do not kill people for cheating on their spouses is WHY????
Not enough graves, perhaps!!
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Or we just no longer follow that part of the Bible stupidity.
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The laws of Moses were based on the Ten Commandments. Thus, any laws regarding rape would fall under the 7th commandment, regarding adultery. And, rape (like adultery) was a capital offense.
So if a single guy raped a virgin back then it wouldn't break the 7th commandment because adultery is defined as a "married" person having sex outside their marriage. Girls were raped all the time back then with no consequences I'm sure.
As far as stones were concerned, stoning and hanging then was no different than the chair or lethal injection is now. that's simply a way capital punishment was administered.
Capital punishment is administered if you are found guilty. Many stonings happened without due process in that time.
Here's another: slavery. Not part of the 10 commandments.
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I wish I was more articulate and better educated, but unfortunately I'm limited to the skillset and knowledge base I have. I am pleased this is at least stimulating conversation. I sincerely enjoy when adamant nonbelievers become believers. It doesn't happen all the time of course, but it's a nice thing to witness. I was on a bad path and needed to right myself...I took out my personal garbage. Others will say I filled myself with the garbage from another can....that's ok. Hopefully this will spur genuine interest and calm some of the harsh resistance to the topic. May not happen today, tomorrow or this year, but hopefully a seed has been planted in some and it starts people really thinking. I learn from nonbelievers when they ask a question from their perspective and it forces me to seek out an answer that I simply don't know in the moment.
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So if a single guy raped a virgin back then it wouldn't break the 7th commandment because adultery is defined as a "married" person having sex outside their marriage. Girls were raped all the time back then with no consequences I'm sure.
Capital punishment is administered if you are found guilty. Many stonings happened without due process in that time.
I beg to differ. And there was due process in that time. You had the elders and judges of Israel, who facilitated such a process. And, at least two witnesses were required for a conviction.
Plus, your definition of adultery is a bit off. An adulterer/adulteress can be single if he/she is screwing someone who's married. For example, Reille Hunter is considered an adulteress, not because she is married, but because John Edwards is married.
If a single guy raped a virgin, bethrothed to another man, he is committing adultery. But, since the girl is forced, only the guy gets put to death. Nothing happens to the woman.
Here's another: slavery. Not part of the 10 commandments.
That's also covered under the laws that are a subset of the Commandments. To be clear, what we typically think of when we hear slavery (i.e. chattel slavery) was specifically outlawed. Kidnapping people and selling them was punishable by death. If Israel went to war against an enemy, it could assimilate its people. But, even that had guidelines and harsh treatment of servants was specifically barred, as the Israelites were repeatedly reminded of how badly they were treated in Egypt.
Or we just no longer follow that part of the Bible stupidity.
There's nothing stupid about that, especially given the ramifications adultery had, during that time: Destruction of the nuclear family, which affected inheritance rights. Shame and dishonor that came to the family, not to mention little things such as DISEASE and pestilence, spread due to adulterous behavior.
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There can be endless debate about how justice is adminstered for different crimes (Mcway I appreciate your insight). The only question that should be considered if this: If you were to die today and were to stand in front of the gates of heaven and God was to ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" What would you say?
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Why people always argue if the god exist or not?
Why nobody argue about the words of God or meaning of God?
If God exists, Maybe God can be an asshole who own us as slaves... who knows?
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kyomu, "Forget what you've heard about Jesus if it doesn't begin and end with love." Just some gospel song lyrics, but a great summary of the meaning of God.
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There's nothing stupid about that, especially given the ramifications adultery had, during that time: Destruction of the nuclear family, which affected inheritance rights. Shame and dishonor that came to the family, not to mention little things such as DISEASE and pestilence, spread due to adulterous behavior.
::)
That can be applied to the current world. But yet, adultery is not a capital offense WHY?
Because no one follows that bit of Bible stupidity anymore. Which is why we don't go about poking out eyes, sacrificing goats, or killing our own children anymore. We outgrew childish crap like that.
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::)
That can be applied to the current world. But yet, adultery is not a capital offense WHY?
Because no one follows that bit of Bible stupidity anymore. Which is why we don't go about poking out eyes, sacrificing goats, or killing our own children anymore. We outgrew childish crap like that.
This has nothing to do with outgrowing anything. One, adultery (in certain countries) is STILL a capital offense. Two, the reason it stopped being such (from a spiritual standpoint) has more to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, replacing the need for sacrificing goats and so forth.
Unfortunately, that grace has been abused far too much, resulting in the aforementioned shame, dysfunction of the family, and spread of disease.
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kyomu, "Forget what you've heard about Jesus if it doesn't begin and end with love." Just some gospel song lyrics, but a great summary of the meaning of God.
Yeah, that kind of thing is important.
It doesnt matter if a beard guy who did miracle or not. :-\
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This has nothing to do with outgrowing anything. One, adultery (in certain countries) is STILL a capital offense. Two, the reason it stopped being such (from a spiritual standpoint) has more to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, replacing the need for sacrificing goats and so forth.
Unfortunately, that grace has been abused far too much, resulting in the aforementioned shame, dysfunction of the family, and spread of disease.
How many of those countries still practicing the death penalty for adultery are Christianity faith based?
Yeah... that is what I thought. As stated, it was OUT GROWN.
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How many of those countries still practicing the death penalty for adultery are Christianity faith based?
Yeah... that is what I thought. As stated, it was OUT GROWN.
Wrong!!! It wasn't "Out Grown". The tenet was not that such a trangression was not worthy of death, but that Christ's death was THE SUBSTITUTE.
That's been the case, as far as Christianity is concerned, since the 1st century.
Rom. 6:14-15: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Grace simply means you are SPARED the full penalty of a transgression; not that such an act is not a trangression.
You jumped the gun by claiming that adultery was not a capital offense in the current world, which is simply incorrect.
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A combination of chemical reactions in the right setting. All life on the planet now is just how chemicals react with each other.
catholic
Perception of bad and good is subjective. For instance if I was in love with a person that was immoral, mean and selfish (happens in relationships all the time) and that relationship didn't work out, I might think that that was a bad thing, however others around me would think it was good since the other person was a loser.
If anything I perceive as bad happened, I accept that it's just part of life and circumstance. I can control certain aspects. I would be robbed, if I went to an area where robbery is rampant. If I choose not to go there, then chances are slim.
People are good and bad, and IMO, it's their personality and upbringing that will dictate how they live their life.
Where did the chemicals and the right setting come from? Do you think they were eternal?
If life is just how chemicals react w/each other, do you feel that "good and bad"/consciousness/emotions etc. are chemicals reacting w/each other also or is it something different?
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Holy fuck, are you guys still arguing this this guy, really?
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I wish I was more articulate and better educated, but unfortunately I'm limited to the skillset and knowledge base I have. I am pleased this is at least stimulating conversation. I sincerely enjoy when adamant nonbelievers become believers. It doesn't happen all the time of course, but it's a nice thing to witness. I was on a bad path and needed to right myself...I took out my personal garbage. Others will say I filled myself with the garbage from another can....that's ok. Hopefully this will spur genuine interest and calm some of the harsh resistance to the topic. May not happen today, tomorrow or this year, but hopefully a seed has been planted in some and it starts people really thinking. I learn from nonbelievers when they ask a question from their perspective and it forces me to seek out an answer that I simply don't know in the moment.
:)
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Question for the unbelievers debating here..... do you think about the information MCWAY (or any believer) posts in answer to your inquiries for any length of time or just dismiss it immediately w/o considering it?
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I can answer that, dismiss immediately, then worship Satan, pee on a cross, tell god to go fuck himself, etc etc etc. That's right, I capitalized Satan and god got a lower ass g.........
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What no lightning, I didn't get smitten (is that a word?), hmm, strange......
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double a ron, despite your comments, God still has a deeper love for you than you can imagine.
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Nah he doesn't, he will have me burn in hell according to believers.........
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We are accountable for our actions (sin), but are given complete pardon for them....that's his gift of salvation....that was his sacrifice for us.
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We are accountable for our actions (sin), but are given complete pardon for them....that's his gift of salvation....that was his sacrifice for us.
so the story goes
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We are accountable for our actions (sin), but are given complete pardon for them....that's his gift of salvation....that was his sacrifice for us.
Shit doesn't make sense. ;D
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NarcissisticDeity, that's exactly how the story goes yes.
Klaus, what doesn't make sense to you? If I can't fully help I'm sure there's another that can.
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NarcissisticDeity, that's exactly how the story goes yes.
Klaus, what doesn't make sense to you? If I can't fully help I'm sure there's another that can.
story being the operative word
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NarcissisticDeity, that's exactly how the story goes yes.
Klaus, what doesn't make sense to you? If I can't fully help I'm sure there's another that can.
Just the part about accountability of our actions and we getting pardoned is contradictory on so many levels.
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Noah knew Ronnie was better than Dorian
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Again, yes it is a story.
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Klaus, you'd have to help me understand what you mean.
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Noah knew Ronnie was better than Dorian
Haha!
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Just the part about accountability of our actions and we getting pardoned is contradictory on so many levels.
As is ' creating ' us with flaws and then punishing us for them ???
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Noah knew Ronnie was better than Dorian
lmao
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We have the choice to sin or not.
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We have the choice to sin or not.
So the story goes
God created imperfect creatures and then punishes them for being imperfect , speaks volumes of his creative abilities
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LOL!!!!
"Everybody wanna be down with God, but ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass tablets"
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LOL!!!!
"Everybody wanna be down with God, but ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass tablets"
Hahahahahaha ;D
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:)
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Question for the unbelievers debating here..... do you think about the information MCWAY (or any believer) posts in answer to your inquiries for any length of time or just dismiss it immediately w/o considering it?
I actually take the time to dissect through them and read them, though by now I think we've all come to the clear conclusion that mcway is a religious nut.. he is constantly arguing proven scientific facts with the bible and 'faith' , you know one of those people that will not accept that the sky is blue no matter how many what but till always make up his own 'alternate' reality.
I keep asking believers to post hard undeniable, clear (black and white) evidence or proof of a god and all I keep getting is quotes from the bible (over 2,000 years old when we knew nothing about science or astronomy) or retorts about my 'lack of faith' ::) ::)
The only possible 'god' type being I could imagine is something along the lines of the movie Stargate, which actually makes a lot of sense if you watch it, the offer a great explanation for 'god'
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I beg to differ. And there was due process in that time. You had the elders and judges of Israel, who facilitated such a process. And, at least two witnesses were required for a conviction.
Plus, your definition of adultery is a bit off. An adulterer/adulteress can be single if he/she is screwing someone who's married. For example, Reille Hunter is considered an adulteress, not because she is married, but because John Edwards is married.
If a single guy raped a virgin, bethrothed to another man, he is committing adultery. But, since the girl is forced, only the guy gets put to death. Nothing happens to the woman.
McWay your argument about rape being covered by adultery is wrong. Rape is FORCED. Adultery is defined as VOLUNTARY. Being betrothed is NOT the same as being married. If it were true and a betrothed female was accidentally killed, would the male receive her dowry? Nope.
That's also covered under the laws that are a subset of the Commandments. To be clear, what we typically think of when we hear slavery (i.e. chattel slavery) was specifically outlawed. Kidnapping people and selling them was punishable by death. If Israel went to war against an enemy, it could assimilate its people. But, even that had guidelines and harsh treatment of servants was specifically barred, as the Israelites were repeatedly reminded of how badly they were treated in Egypt.
The commandments didn't abolish slavery. It gave conditions for having slaves. So in essence god didn't think that slaves (who of course were people) needed to be unslaved as long as they were treated well. Face it slavery is a disgrace for any man, woman or child.
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Oh dear, brutal ownage of the 10 commandments.
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Where did the chemicals and the right setting come from? Do you think they were eternal?
I believe the elements have always been here. I am more than sure there are some that aren't discovered yet.
The factor that we have on Earth, that other planets in OUR system doesn't have is free flowing water. We know without water NO life survives. Now my question to you would be, if god is all powerful and almighty, then why weren't we conceived on Mercury or Venus? Or Jupiter or Neptune? We could have been made to withstand any elemental issues if that was possible. So why Earth?
If life is just how chemicals react w/each other, do you feel that "good and bad"/consciousness/emotions etc. are chemicals reacting w/each other also or is it something different?
Yes. We know that natural hormones in the body already affect mood and emotions. We know that that by supplying certain drugs to mental patients, that it helps them from their disruption in neural processing.
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I just read a friends post on FB about how the "grace of god" saved her from a car accident. Of course she doesn't credit herself with having the reflexes to have avoided it.
It's one of the dumbest statements IMO. A child is born with a disease, goes through surgery and by the "grace of god" survives it to live on. Uh, if god didn't bestow the damn disease to the child in the first place, he/she wouldn't have needed the surgery. ::)
That's why when people say "god given talent" for those who are above average, they should also say to children born with disease, "god given torture".
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Where did the chemicals and the right setting come from? Do you think they were eternal?
If life is just how chemicals react w/each other, do you feel that "good and bad"/consciousness/emotions etc. are chemicals reacting w/each other also or is it something different?
These are great points and questions that do deserve to be discussed, but it is also silly to think that a book written 2000 years ago provides "The Way" when we are a society that is as educated as we are now.
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I just read a friends post on FB about how the "grace of god" saved her from a car accident. Of course she doesn't credit herself with having the reflexes to have avoided it.
It's one of the dumbest statements IMO. A child is born with a disease, goes through surgery and by the "grace of god" survives it to live on. Uh, if god didn't bestow the damn disease to the child in the first place, he/she wouldn't have needed the surgery. ::)
That's why when people say "god given talent" for those who are above average, they should also say to children born with disease, "god given torture".
Great points! let the dum dums keep on believing, what do you expect? it's been hammered into their head since they were toddlers, I for one will tell my children to avoid religion at all costs and tell them the truth about it, that it is the reason man has been killing one another for 3,000 years
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I actually take the time to dissect through them and read them, though by now I think we've all come to the clear conclusion that mcway is a religious nut.. he is constantly arguing proven scientific facts with the bible and 'faith' , you know one of those people that will not accept that the sky is blue no matter how many what but till always make up his own 'alternate' reality.
I keep asking believers to post hard undeniable, clear (black and white) evidence or proof of a god and all I keep getting is quotes from the bible (over 2,000 years old when we knew nothing about science or astronomy) or retorts about my 'lack of faith' ::) ::)
The only possible 'god' type being I could imagine is something along the lines of the movie Stargate, which actually makes a lot of sense if you watch it, the offer a great explanation for 'god'
You do not understand the concept of faith do you?
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The commandments didn't abolish slavery. It gave conditions for having slaves. So in essence god didn't think that slaves (who of course were people) needed to be unslaved as long as they were treated well. Face it slavery is a disgrace for any man, woman or child.
You can't take something completely out of it's contextual script and apply it to today's standards of moral practice and social ethics. Slavery was common in that time period, as anyone knows. Sure we can say slavery is a horrible thing today, but if you lived in that time period your views would be significantly different. There will certainly be things that we accept as being "ok" today that future generations will be completely against.
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Wrong!!! It wasn't "Out Grown". The tenet was not that such a trangression was not worthy of death, but that Christ's death was THE SUBSTITUTE.
That's been the case, as far as Christianity is concerned, since the 1st century.
Rom. 6:14-15: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Grace simply means you are SPARED the full penalty of a transgression; not that such an act is not a trangression.
You jumped the gun by claiming that adultery was not a capital offense in the current world, which is simply incorrect.
Incorrect. I was never referring to the sin, but to the punishment. Either you can not understand what I wrote or you just simply are trying to argue a moot point completely irrelevant to what was said. Or a combination of both which wouldn't surprise me.
Your typical response is a perfect example of how society has OUTGROWN the Bible stupidity over the passing of time. Which is exactly why religion is declining every day.
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God created imperfect creatures and then punishes them for being imperfect , speaks volumes of his creative abilities
we've all come to the clear conclusion that mcway is a religious nut..
A child is born with a disease, goes through surgery and by the "grace of god" survives it to live on. Uh, if god didn't bestow the damn disease to the child in the first place, he/she wouldn't have needed the surgery. ::)
That's why when people say "god given talent" for those who are above average, they should also say to children born with disease, "god given torture".
AMEN!!!
Preach it!!!!
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You can't take something completely out of it's contextual script and apply it to today's standards of moral practice and social ethics. Slavery was common in that time period, as anyone knows. Sure we can say slavery is a horrible thing today, but if you lived in that time period your views would be significantly different. There will certainly be things that we accept as being "ok" today that future generations will be completely against.
Views of different eras follow the accepted behavior of the time. Doesn't change the fact that "god" thought it was alright for other men to enslave other men and use then for a lifetime of unpaid servitude. Again, IMO the "morals" and "commandments" were drawn up to follow what most kings, emperors and dictators desired at the time. What king wouldn't want:
1. Being the only king
2. Have no other king before him
3. You won't curse or speak bad of them
4. You will worship them at least once each week
The rest were just formalities to keep the people happy and from having chaos in their kingdom.
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McWay your argument about rape being covered by adultery is wrong. Rape is FORCED. Adultery is defined as VOLUNTARY. Being betrothed is NOT the same as being married. If it were true and a betrothed female was accidentally killed, would the male receive her dowry? Nope.
For all ancient practical and legal purposes, they were the same. If my memory serves me correctly, the betrothment period lasted about a year. All that's left is the official wedding and subsequent consummation of the marriage. Once the betrothment was made official, that was it; the marriage had to take place (barring some major improprieity, i.e. sex with an outside party).
Therefore, raping a betrothed woman was effectively raping (forcefully having sex with) another man's wife; hence, it's adultery and as spelled out further in Levitical law, such was punishable by DEATH for the assailant!
On the other hand, if a betrothed woman VOLUNTARILY had sex with another guy, she is effectively committing adultery. Hence, she and the other guy would have been put down.
The commandments didn't abolish slavery. It gave conditions for having slaves. So in essence god didn't think that slaves (who of course were people) needed to be unslaved as long as they were treated well. Face it slavery is a disgrace for any man, woman or child.
Views of different eras follow the accepted behavior of the time. Doesn't change the fact that "god" thought it was alright for other men to enslave other men and use then for a lifetime of unpaid servitude. Again, IMO the "morals" and "commandments" were drawn up to follow what most kings, emperors and dictators desired at the time.....
Again, it appears you are interchanging the servitude in Scripture with chattel slavery, which was clearly not allowed.
As stated earlier, the Commandments and the laws based on them cover the barring of chattel slavery.
How are chattel slaves most often procured? Kidnapping. That was barred, and punishable by DEATH. Any injury or dismemberment of a servant allowed that servant to leave (with compensation). If a master killed his servant, that master was put to death himself.
Once the time of servitude was up, the servant was free to leave, with quite the nice “severance package”, if you will.
Again, Israel was constantly reminded that they were NOT to treat foreigners the way they were treated in Egypt.
Exd 22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Exd 23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
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I actually take the time to dissect through them and read them, though by now I think we've all come to the clear conclusion that mcway is a religious nut.. he is constantly arguing proven scientific facts with the bible and 'faith' , you know one of those people that will not accept that the sky is blue no matter how many what but till always make up his own 'alternate' reality.
Wrong again!!
I use the Bible in an argument, when the subject matter involves a Biblical account, as the subject of this thread does. As for "proven scientific facts", and my allegedly not accepting "the sky is blue", let's see how many "scientific facts" have turned out to be anything but that, upon further inspection?
Spontaneous generation was among the "proven scientific facts", until Louis Pasteur put that one to rest.
Pluto, being a planet, was among the "proven scientific facts" as well, until a few years ago. Do you accept that it's still a planet? If you do, are you making up your own "alternate reality"?
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You can't really use "Pluto" as an example, as the scientific community redefined the definition of what a "planet" is, which just happened to exclude Pluto based upon the new definition.
As a matter of fact, many scientists still claim it should in fact be a planet, but the new definition eliminates it as such because it hasn't "cleared" the area around it's orbit.
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You can't really use "Pluto" as an example, as the scientific community redefined the definition of what a "planet" is, which just happened to exclude Pluto based upon the new definition.
As a matter of fact, many scientists still claim it should in fact be a planet, but the new definition eliminates it as such because it hasn't "cleared" the area around it's orbit.
That was part of the point, regarding the whole definition changing stuff. Prior to 2006, if the average Joe would have said that Pluto ain't a planet, you'd be wondering if he were consuming copious amounts of cannibis, during his science classes in school.
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Irrelevant attempt to compare.
At one time someone saying the Earth is flat would have been considered truthful and all knowing. But that view evolved and was dropped over time in light of scientific evidence and discovery - PROOF that the initial concept of a flat earth was nothing more than a product of unschooled thought and lack of discovery. If someone said the same thing today, they would be labeled a loony as it is just common sense that dictates otherwise.
Same way with religion. At one time, weird thoughts of God sending a flood or parting the sea or any of the other nonsense was commonly accepted because men back in those days lacked the intellectual capacity that we accept as "normal" today. As time goes by and independent thought and logic precede superstitions and children's stories, religion fades away by the day and dwindles in followers.
In the next thousand years, mankind will probably look upon "God" and the "Bible" the same way we look upon Zeus and Mt Olympus today. As simple stories that the less educated took for granted because they didn't know any better at the time.
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Irrelevant attempt to compare.
At one time someone saying the Earth is flat would have been considered truthful and all knowing. But that view evolved and was dropped over time in light of scientific evidence and discovery - PROOF that the initial concept of a flat earth was nothing more than a product of unschooled thought and lack of discovery. If someone said the same thing today, they would be labeled a loony as it is just common sense that dictates otherwise.
Unschooled thought? Try again, the learned men of the time SWORE UP AND DOWN that the world was flat and cited such as among "proven scientific facts" to the masses. And Catholic clergy walked right in lockstep with such thinking (even though Scripture makes no claim of a flat earth, whatsoever).
Same way with religion. At one time, weird thoughts of God sending a flood or parting the sea or any of the other nonsense was commonly accepted because men back in those days lacked the intellectual capacity that we accept as "normal" today. As time goes by and independent thought and logic precede superstitions and children's stories, religion fades away by the day and dwindles in followers.
Wrong on that one, especially regarding that parting the sea (Exodus) thing. Bible skeptics have all but done a 180 on that one, going from denying the Exodus occured, to producing specials and studies left and right, attempting to explain the plagues that hit Egypt, resulting in the Israelites' release.
There was nothing "normal" about a global Flood; nor was there anything "normal" about the plagues that hit Egypt in the manner which they did, leading to the Exodus.
And, the religion that documents the Flood and the Exodus has been flourishing and intact, FOR MILLENIA (despite numerous rises and falls of kingdoms and empires, and attempted suppresion of that religion and its people for almost as long).
In the next thousand years, mankind will probably look upon "God" and the "Bible" the same way we look upon Zeus and Mt Olympus today. As simple stories that the less educated took for granted because they didn't know any better at the time.
That's funny!! Mankind hasn't done it over the last 3,500 years or so.
Time was supposed to do away with the Bible....didn't happen. Time was supposed to do away with Christianity....didn't happen.
Per the bubbas from the "Enlightenment" period, "logic and reason" was supposed to spell the end of religion (Christianity, in particular)......their era is gone; Christianity remains.
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I just read a friends post on FB about how the "grace of god" saved her from a car accident. Of course she doesn't credit herself with having the reflexes to have avoided it.
It's one of the dumbest statements IMO. A child is born with a disease, goes through surgery and by the "grace of god" survives it to live on. Uh, if god didn't bestow the damn disease to the child in the first place, he/she wouldn't have needed the surgery. ::)
That's why when people say "god given talent" for those who are above average, they should also say to children born with disease, "god given torture".
Oh, really? Take a child with AIDS. Did God give this child AIDS or did he get it, courtesy of at least one of his parents either shooting up dope or screwing around?
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Oh, really? Take a child with AIDS. Did God give this child AIDS or did he get it, courtesy of at least one of his parents either shooting up dope or screwing around?
What your excuse for MS? SID? Cancer? Retardation? Is Trig the result of his mother being retarded as well?
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What your excuse for MS? SID? Cancer? Retardation? Is Trig the result of his mother being retarded as well?
Or earthquakes, volcano eruptions, floods, etc. I guess god was mad at the people of haiti..
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What your excuse for MS? SID? Cancer? Retardation? Is Trig the result of his mother being retarded as well?
Some diseases are the direct result of bad behavior and/or poor habits. Except for MS, all of those aforementioned diseases can be caused by people's behaviors.
And, at the end of the day, disease is all too much a result of living on a sinful planet.
Of course, in your haste to jump in and run off at the mouth, you (yet again) missed the point. Oldschool claimed that children with disease should be described as having "god given torture". That's a huge stretch, especially given an example of such disease that children get, as a DIRECT RESULT of their parents' misgivings.
Kids can get AIDS, because of their parents' screwing around or shooting up dope. They can become retarded if Mom smokes crack or drinks while pregnant. Cancer? People get cancer, because of smoking and other bad habits.
That was the gist of my statement, earlier. And, as usual, it zipped right over your skull.
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Unschooled thought? Try again, the learned men of the time SWORE UP AND DOWN that the world was flat and cited such as among "proven scientific facts" to the masses. And Catholic clergy walked right in lockstep with such thinking (even though Scripture makes no claim of a flat earth, whatsoever).
Once again you exhibit the fact you either lack basic reading ability or you simply can not comprehend what you did read. I clearly stated :
At one time someone saying the Earth is flat would have been considered truthful and all knowing.
Why you felt the need to agree with the exact same statement in different words, I have no idea. I don't think you have any idea either.
Today if someone claimed the Earth was flat, would they still be looked upon as wise and all knowing? Of course not.
Wrong on that one, especially regarding that parting the sea (Exodus) thing. Bible skeptics have all but done a 180 on that one, going from denying the Exodus occured, to producing specials and studies left and right, attempting to explain the plagues that hit Egypt, resulting in the Israelites' release.
No force on Earth of yesterday, today or tomorrow is powerful enough to divide an ocean into a walking path. Again, you spout off at the gums with something that is completely irrelevant to the post you are trying to address. Not a single thing I posted was about the Exodus, plagues, or Isrealites release. Did you see that in my post? No you didn't. But yet you are attempting to discuss this because of WHAT again? Other than no point.
There was nothing "normal" about a global Flood; nor was there anything "normal" about the plagues that hit Egypt in the manner which they did, leading to the Exodus.
Again, my question pages back that you flailed around with your smoke and mirrors and yet couldn't answer is not directed at whether or not a flood or a plague existed. But in regards to providing proof that God was behind this himself. Nothing supports that some magical being on a cloud sent this himself. Hell, when was the last time anyone contributed the Black Plague of Europe to God? Yet you take an act of natural disaster or sickness and try to "prove" to others that some invisible being did it without any proof behind your claim whatsoever.
And, the religion that documents the Flood and the Exodus has been flourishing and intact, FOR MILLENIA (despite numerous rises and falls of kingdoms and empires, and attempted suppresion of that religion and its people for almost as long).
Indeed. It takes a while for stupid children and their offspring to die out. Never fret, it's happening though.
That's funny!! Mankind hasn't done it over the last 3,500 years or so.
I didn't know that there was suppose to be a deadline. Perhaps you can provide a link to that? How long did it take for Roman and Greek mythology or Egyptian pagans to fade away? Never fear, your God will be nothing more than a pagan himself in another few thousand years.
Time was supposed to do away with the Bible....didn't happen. Time was supposed to do away with Christianity....didn't happen.
Oh but it is. Which is why over time the ranks of the Christians have declined. Argue this if you are stupid enough, but evidence points out that there are less, not more.
Per the bubbas from the "Enlightenment" period, "logic and reason" was supposed to spell the end of religion (Christianity, in particular)......their era is gone; Christianity remains.
Per the religious douches from past periods... Christianity and God was suppose to spell the end of the witches, disease, science and natural disasters. But yet, science has saved more of mankind than "God" ever has.
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Some diseases are the direct result of bad behavior and/or poor habits. Except for MS, all of those aforementioned diseases can be caused by people's behaviors.
Really? What behavior can a child do to earn SID? What behavior contributes to a genetic defect/mutation that leads to cancer? What of kids born blind? Cleft lip? Missing fingers and toes? Siamese twins? What poor habits did they have while in the womb that led to this? What behavior did Palin engage in that resulted in Trig?
And, at the end of the day, disease is all too much a result of living on a sinful planet.
So God punishes his good Christians for the behavior of others? Otherwise little Christards would all be disease free by your claim here. For someone who lives right, follows a good moral compass, abides by the Bible and worships God... why should they be marked by disease if it is other people sinning? Is this God's sense of humor at work?
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Mcway, I appreciate your persistence and your knowledge base, but at some point you must abandon the debate unless you truly believe headway is being made. If that is the case then press on, but from what I've read thus far no matter how well you debate at the end of the day if they can't outthink and outwit you they'll simply turn to 5th grade logic and insults and return immediately to "God is a children's fairytale anyway."
1 Cor 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
A friend just recently reminded me of this verse.
At this stage of the game all you can do is pray for others.
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Once again you exhibit the fact you either lack basic reading ability or you simply can not comprehend what you did read. I clearly stated :
At one time someone saying the Earth is flat would have been considered truthful and all knowing.
Why you felt the need to agree with the exact same statement in different words, I have no idea. I don't think you have any idea either.
Today if someone claimed the Earth was flat, would they still be looked upon as wise and all knowing? Of course not.
I read what you wrote. You claimed that the concept of a flat earth was the product of unschooled thought, which was incorrect. And, it certainly wasn't for lack of knowledge.
No force on Earth of yesterday, today or tomorrow is powerful enough to divide an ocean into a walking path. Again, you spout off at the gums with something that is completely irrelevant to the post you are trying to address. Not a single thing I posted was about the Exodus, plagues, or Isrealites release. Did you see that in my post? No you didn't. But yet you are attempting to discuss this because of WHAT again? Other than no point.
It appears that you don't read your own post. You made the reference to parting of a sea. Hmmmm.....exactly what historical event is linked to a parting of a sea? What happening, documented for centuries on end, is ceremoniously LINKED to parting of a sea?
If this is your way of playing dumb, consider yourself MVP!!
Again, my question pages back that you flailed around with your smoke and mirrors and yet couldn't answer is not directed at whether or not a flood or a plague existed. But in regards to providing proof that God was behind this himself. Nothing supports that some magical being on a cloud sent this himself. Hell, when was the last time anyone contributed the Black Plague of Europe to God? Yet you take an act of natural disaster or sickness and try to "prove" to others that some invisible being did it without any proof behind your claim whatsoever.
I answered your question, gave the specifics and references supporting such, which prompted you to engage in your repeated cluckings and bleatings.
Indeed. It takes a while for stupid children and their offspring to die out. Never fret, it's happening though.
The allegedly stupid people were supposed to "die out" along time ago. Yet, they're still around. Those calling themselves smarter have gone bye-bye.
So, you'll have to dredge up another silly excuse as to why, despite your hopes to the contrary, the Judeo-Christian faith remains intact and vibrant.
I didn't know that there was suppose to be a deadline. Perhaps you can provide a link to that? How long did it take for Roman and Greek mythology or Egyptian pagans to fade away? Never fear, your God will be nothing more than a pagan himself in another few thousand years.
4000 years plus, and the frustration for skeptics continues, to this day. All it took was those nations being either destroyed or overtaken by a foreign power. Israel's had that done to them more times than I care to count. Yet, that pesky God, religion of theirs, and the Bible (OT and, later, NT) is still around.
Even amidst the presence of pagans like those aforementioed Egyptians, and Greeks, and Roman, (not to mention the Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Philistines, and numerous other oppressors).
They've faded away. God, His people, and His word have not (and it ain't been for lack of trying).
Oh but it is. Which is why over time the ranks of the Christians have declined. Argue this if you are stupid enough, but evidence points out that there are less, not more.
You mean evidence like this?
Christianity is the fastest growing religion both in the number of new adherents due to natural growth (births minus deaths) as well as in number of new converts (converts in minus converts out).
• The total growth of Christianity (25,210,195) adds the equivalent of more than the population of Australia (21,555,500) or the U.S. State of Texas (23,904,380) of new Christians to Christianity. Every year.
• The number of new converts to Christianity is more than twice the combined number of new converts to all the other tabulated religions, even if we take out those with negative numbers (2,501,396 vers. 1,090,541)
• The new converts to Christianity (2,501,396) adds the equivalent of more than the population of Latvia (2,268,000) or almost the U.S. State of Nevada (2,565,382) of new Christians to Christianity. Every year.
http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html#table_j (http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html#table_j)
I addressed this earlier, The numbers of Christians HAVE INCREASED, overall, based on sheer numbers (And that's just in the United States). Christianity is THE FASTEST-GROWING religion on the planet and has more converts worldwide than all other organized religions COMBINED.
It's not going anywhere, despite your wishful musings to the contrary.
Per the religious douches from past periods... Christianity and God was suppose to spell the end of the witches, disease, science and natural disasters. But yet, science has saved more of mankind than "God" ever has.
Says who? No one made the claim that God or Christianity would spell the end of those things on Earth. In fact, Scripture cites the very OPPOSITE happening, throughout Earth's existence.
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Is it good because it's loved by god? Or is it god cause god loves it?
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Mcway, I appreciate your persistence and your knowledge base, but at some point you must abandon the debate unless you truly believe headway is being made. If that is the case then press on, but from what I've read thus far no matter how well you debate at the end of the day if they can't outthink and outwit you they'll simply turn to 5th grade logic and insults and return immediately to "God is a children's fairytale anyway."
1 Cor 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
A friend just recently reminded me of this verse.
At this stage of the game all you can do is pray for others.
The issue here isn't about making headway. If an assertion is made, regarding an aspect of Scripture or the Christian faith, which is categorically false, the issue becomes simply setting the record straight.
As you've seen, a number of wild claims have been made, which are way off the mark. A prime example can be found in my previous post, regarding the humorous and wishful skeptic thinking that the Word of God and the Christian faith is going to die out, courtesy of the alleged "logic and reason" of anti-religious skeptics and their allies in academia.
That simply isn't the case. The Word has endured, throughout the ages, and will remain.
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I read what you wrote. You claimed that the concept of a flat earth was the product of unschooled thought, which was incorrect. And, it certainly wasn't for lack of knowledge.
Are you saying believing the earth is flat is an exhibit of sound mind and intellect? Or do you simply do not comprehend a simple statement and instead attempt to argue your way into agreeing with it?
It appears that you don't read your own post. You made the reference to parting of a sea. Hmmmm.....exactly what historical event is linked to a parting of a sea? What happening, documented for centuries on end, is ceremoniously LINKED to parting of a sea?
Again, I made no reference to any historical event. You try to twist and spin the statement to something you want it to be in order to try to deflect the nature of the discussion elsewhere. Won't work. I never said anything about events or things linked to the parting of the sea. I plainly stating parting a sea - any sea for any event - is impossible and has never and will never happen. Now continue with your whinefest and irrelevant topics.
If this is your way of playing dumb, consider yourself MVP!!
I think that little tiara firmly rests upon your head after your dazzling display of reading ability/comprehension.
I answered your question, gave the specifics and references supporting such, which prompted you to engage in your repeated cluckings and bleatings.
No, you did not. You can not even go back on this thread and provide a link to where you did. You gave "evidence" of global floodings. You gave "evidence" of the ark and it's dimension and how Moses built it.
However, my question was not about a flood. Nor was it about Moses and his ark. My question was asking for proof that some magical caused this flood and not Mother Nature. You instead blubber and flap those gums about everything EXCEPT what would answer the question.
Your irrelevant non answers answered nothing at all. No surprise.
The allegedly stupid people were supposed to "die out" along time ago. Yet, they're still around. Those calling themselves smarter have gone bye-bye.
Really, where? Unlike Moses, I don't see those living for 900 years or whatever. Or time, mankind has gotten smarter and put away silly musings and fables.
So, you'll have to dredge up another silly excuse as to why, despite your hopes to the contrary, the Judeo-Christian faith remains intact and vibrant.
As I said... stupid people are still around.
4000 years plus, and the frustration for skeptics continues, to this day. All it took was those nations being either destroyed or overtaken by a foreign power. Israel's had that done to them more times than I care to count. Yet, that pesky God, religion of theirs, and the Bible (OT and, later, NT) is still around.
Was that God's love that allowed their country to be destroyed? Or maybe the God of the other side was stronger?
Even amidst the presence of pagans like those aforementioed Egyptians, and Greeks, and Roman, (not to mention the Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Philistines, and numerous other oppressors).
And yet, how much of the basis of Christianity was taken from those pagan cultures? How long did people follow those religions?
They've faded away. God, His people, and His word have not (and it ain't been for lack of trying).
When was the last time you saw God? And His Word not fading... oh yeah... like the rape/adultery punishment above. Boy, that sure remained a certain death nowdays for offenders.
You mean evidence like this?
I mean evidence like this :
It was a small detail, a point of comparison buried in the fifth paragraph on the 17th page of a 24-page summary of the 2009 American Religious Identification Survey. But as R. Albert Mohler Jr.—president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, one of the largest on earth—read over the document after its release in March, he was struck by a single sentence. For a believer like Mohler—a starched, unflinchingly conservative Christian, steeped in the theology of his particular province of the faith, devoted to producing ministers who will preach the inerrancy of the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the only means to eternal life—the central news of the survey was troubling enough: the number of Americans who claim no religious affiliation has nearly doubled since 1990, rising from 8 to 15 percent.
According to the American Religious Identification Survey that got Mohler's attention, the percentage of self-identified Christians has fallen 10 percentage points since 1990, from 86 to 76 percent. The Jewish population is 1.2 percent; the Muslim, 0.6 percent.
The American Religious Identification Survey conducted by Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut has revealed that the number of Christian believers is on the decline in the United States.
According to the report, “The percentage of Christians in America, which declined in the 1990s from 86.2 percent to 76.7 percent, has now edged down to 76 percent.”
Other key findings as reported by American Religious Identification Survey:
• Baptists, who constitute the largest non-Catholic Christian tradition, have increased their numbers by two million since 2001, but continue to decline as a proportion of the population.
• The number of adherents of Eastern Religions, which more than doubled in the 1990s, has declined slightly, from just over two million to just under. Asian Americans are substantially more likely to indicate no religious identity than other racial or ethnic groups.
• Those who identify religiously as Jews continue to decline numerically, from 3.1 million in 1990 to 2.8 million in 2001 to 2.7 million in 2008–1.2 percent of the population. Defined to include those who identify as Jews by ethnicity alone, the American Jewish population has remained stable over the past two decades.
• Adherents of New Religious movements, including Wiccans and self-described pagans, have grown faster this decade than in the 1990s.
"unChristian" is the title of a new book by David Kinnaman, president of The Barna Group. I think it is safe to say that this book shows in a concrete way the negative impact of the Christian Right.
More from the publishers:
The study shows that 16- to 29-year-olds exhibit a greater degree of criticism toward Christianity than did previous generations when they were at the same stage of life. In fact, in just a decade, many of the Barna measures of the Christian image have shifted substantially downward, fueled in part by a growing sense of disengagement and disillusionment among young people. For instance, a decade ago the vast majority of Americans outside the Christian faith, including young people, felt favorably toward Christianity's role in society. Currently, however, just 16% of non-Christians in their late teens and twenties said they have a "good impression" of Christianity.
Christianity = 39% and DROPPING
http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm
I addressed this earlier, The numbers of Christians HAVE INCREASED, overall, based on sheer numbers (And that's just in the United States). Christianity is THE FASTEST-GROWING religion on the planet and has more converts worldwide than all other organized religions COMBINED.
Irrelevant nonsense. The statement was not about population increases driving up the membership in the ranks, but the entire percentage of the religion as a whole. It is DECLINING. Just like your credibility is when confronted with facts.
It's not going anywhere, despite your wishful musings to the contrary.
As stated... there will always be stupid people. But just less and less of them in the future.
Says who? No one made the claim that God or Christianity would spell the end of those things on Earth. In fact, Scripture cites the very OPPOSITE happening, throughout Earth's existence.
Then that certainly throws a little contradiction into your previous argument about it being a product of a sinful world. ::)
Once again, science has saved more people than God.
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At this stage of the game all you can do is pray for others.
If you'd read this entire thread, you'd have come across the links to the study that's been done showing prayer is not only useless, but detrimental.
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Once again, science has saved more people than God.
Rather unfair comparison as the odds of any god(s) existing are incredibly small, and the odds of the anthropomorphic, hands-on god of the christian bible existing are even smaller. :)
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For all ancient practical and legal purposes, they were the same. If my memory serves me correctly, the betrothment period lasted about a year. All that's left is the official wedding and subsequent consummation of the marriage. Once the betrothment was made official, that was it; the marriage had to take place (barring some major improprieity, i.e. sex with an outside party).
So if the male had sex with another female before the marriage, the wedding was improper. Now the female is no longer betrothed. She gets raped by an unbetrothed male. It's not aldultery.
BTW what happened to the "men of god" who had many wives and obviously committed adultery?
Therefore, raping a betrothed woman was effectively raping (forcefully having sex with) another man's wife; hence, it's adultery and as spelled out further in Levitical law, such was punishable by DEATH for the assailant!
McWay, that's a clever line of thinking, I'm not buying it, but why wasn't rape just spelled out in the commandments then? How hard is it to say, "thou shalt not take a woman's virginity by force."?
On the other hand, if a betrothed woman VOLUNTARILY had sex with another guy, she is effectively committing adultery. Hence, she and the other guy would have been put down.
Marriage is a contract. Without the marriage you have no contract. No contract means no marriage. You can't be an adulterer unless you're married. And yes, marriage was a contract between husband and father of the bride back then.
Again, it appears you are interchanging the servitude in Scripture with chattel slavery, which was clearly not allowed.
As stated earlier, the Commandments and the laws based on them cover the barring of chattel slavery.
How are chattel slaves most often procured? Kidnapping. That was barred, and punishable by DEATH. Any injury or dismemberment of a servant allowed that servant to leave (with compensation). If a master killed his servant, that master was put to death himself.
Not buying it. They may be punished but not put to death. Where is the passage that says that? Masters would sell their daughter's as slaves. No death for that. If a slave was given a wife by his master and she bore children, the man slave may leave if servitude was complete, but the wife and children HAD to stay.
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Oh, really? Take a child with AIDS. Did God give this child AIDS or did he get it, courtesy of at least one of his parents either shooting up dope or screwing around?
AIDS is "acquired immune dificiency syndrome". Key word is "acquired". Cancer, gene defects etc. aren't acquired. If you're going to debate it, then debate the question I asked.
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That simply isn't the case. The Word has endured, throughout the ages, and will remain.
Before last century (100 years) scientific technology was minimal at best. Within the last 100 years we have more scientific discoveries, technologies, and scientific explanations of "miracles" and previous unexplained events. I doubt it will last in the next 500 years based on the advancement of knowledge that will eventually have people really looking hard at unseen entities being real.
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Actually, most scientists believe that the interpretation of the area that parted, was in fact mistranslated and should have been the "reed sea", not the red sea.
An area that is approximately 20 feet deep and was more swamp like.
There is a belief that an under water volcano could have caused a mega tsunami effect which would have receeded waters of that depth.
Not the Ocean depths that people seem to believe, but in general, it is quite possible that the effect did occur... There is evidence to that as well.
The idea that some aspects of the bible may be historically accurate to some extent in no way shape or form means the entire thing is accurate.
That's not how facts work.
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Haha...score another one for religion.
The reason the Hadron Collider is located in Switzerland rather than in Texas is due to the fact that congress discovered that it wouldn't prove the existence of god and would merely attempt to prove the existence of another sub-atomic particle (the Higgs Boson particle), at a cost of 11 Billion dollars. The particle accelerator which was to be built in Texas was originally intended to be 3 times larger than the current Hadron Collider. This also is the cause of the current exodus of top physicists to Switzerland.
Michio explains this around 58 min into the video. Awesome video btw. ;D
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So if the male had sex with another female before the marriage, the wedding was improper. Now the female is no longer betrothed. She gets raped by an unbetrothed male. It's not aldultery.
BTW what happened to the "men of god" who had many wives and obviously committed adultery?
If the male had sex with another female, he's committing adultery, which subject him and the woman to the death penalty. The one case I recall where an adulterer and adulteress were spared such involves David and Bathsheba. However, they certain did not go unpunished for their trangressions, especially David.
McWay, that's a clever line of thinking, I'm not buying it, but why wasn't rape just spelled out in the commandments then? How hard is it to say, "thou shalt not take a woman's virginity by force."?
The Levitical laws are just that. And they are based on the Ten Commandments.
Marriage is a contract. Without the marriage you have no contract. No contract means no marriage. You can't be an adulterer unless you're married. And yes, marriage was a contract between husband and father of the bride back then.
That's not how Hebrew marriages worked. The betrothment was the contract and had the legal and binding effect of the marriage.
Not buying it. They may be punished but not put to death. Where is the passage that says that? Masters would sell their daughter's as slaves. No death for that. If a slave was given a wife by his master and she bore children, the man slave may leave if servitude was complete, but the wife and children HAD to stay.
The passage is Exodus 21:20. The Hebrew word that translates into "punished" is naqam, which translates "to suffer vengeance" or "vengeance be taken (for blood)". Therefore, if the master kills his servant, that master must have vengeance taken upon him (i.e. HE DIES!!!).
A man “selling” his daughter is, in actuality, finding her a husband. Either the master marries her or one of his sons is to marry her. If neither happens, she goes back to her family. She is NOT a slave in perpetuity.
As for the departing servant and his wife, the reason the wife (and children) had to stay was simple: The master “gave” the servant his wife (remember that a female servant is to be treated as a daughter, if the master himself does not marry her, per Ex. 21:9).
In other words, no dowry took place, which is what has to happen in order for a man to have a wife. Ex. 21:9. As long as the master is in charge of the woman’s care, she stays with him. If the man wants the wife and kids to leave with him, he coughs up the dowry.
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WOW! I did not know this till just today.
Did they ever find the guy who losted it?
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AHAAAAHAH!!! Spin it however ya wanna....you have sex before marriage it's sin....done and done. People don't like being told what's right and wrong...they wanna live according to their own rules...their own standards. God gave you the choice to do what you want....you get to reap whatever you sow.
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God gave you the choice to do what you want.
Prove it.
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Read Genesis....it's where choice began....or don't.
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Read Genesis....it's where choice began....or don't.
Proves nothing.
Prove god exists or that statement is meaningless.
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He lived on earth as a man for over 30 years, was murdered, rose from the dead after three days and visited with his followers. There was a book written by many eye witnesses that details his life and works.....good read. Or you can talk to the millions of his followers whose lives have been changed because of their personal relationships with him.
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I'm pretty sure that Horus had the same thing happen to him.
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No one ever met, lived with or worked with with Horus. Don't ask me to debate about Horus...I don't know any detail about this god of egypt.
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He lived on earth as a man for over 30 years, was murdered, rose from the dead after three days and visited with his followers. There was a book written by many eye witnesses that details his life and works.....good read. Or you can talk to the millions of his followers whose lives have been changed because of their personal relationships with him.
Ok, so no proof. Gotcha.
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I just think it's interesting how it's all been done before, but this time, it's true... No more, no less.
Also, you can't find one document that actually talks about the birth of Jesus Christ... You can find documents about Mary and Joseph, but nothing about anyone named Jesus.
All you have is 2nd hand testimony by people who claim to have papers by people who claim to be his disciples. All highly suspect.
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review the term "eye witnesses". YngiweRhoads, I've known harsher nonbelievers than you that changed their tune....I'll pray you find the same.
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Read "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel....has many other good reads as well. It's headier stuff, but interesting.
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Read "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel....has many other good reads as well. It's headier stuff, but interesting.
There is no evidence for any supernatural entities to currently exist or to have ever existed. Whether or not a person named Jesus did, or did not exist, doesn't matter in the least in that regard.
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religion requires faith. That is because it cannot be proven. From Wikipedia : Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing.
jt
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Ok, ok....I can't help you......hopefully you'll find the one that can.
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Some diseases are the direct result of bad behavior and/or poor habits. Except for MS, all of those aforementioned diseases can be caused by people's behaviors.
And, at the end of the day, disease is all too much a result of living on a sinful planet.
Of course, in your haste to jump in and run off at the mouth, you (yet again) missed the point. Oldschool claimed that children with disease should be described as having "god given torture". That's a huge stretch, especially given an example of such disease that children get, as a DIRECT RESULT of their parents' misgivings.
Kids can get AIDS, because of their parents' screwing around or shooting up dope. They can become retarded if Mom smokes crack or drinks while pregnant. Cancer? People get cancer, because of smoking and other bad habits.
That was the gist of my statement, earlier. And, as usual, it zipped right over your skull.
This whole statement is stupid. This shows the type of mindset you have. So a kid that has brain cancer who is 5 years old is due to his or his parents "bad habits" lol cmon now. You are not even thinking straight now.
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Some diseases are the direct result of bad behavior and/or poor habits. Except for MS, all of those aforementioned diseases can be caused by people's behaviors.
While some diseases are acquired (lung cancer from smoking, or melanoma from sun exposure for example) the majority of risk factors for diseases at birth are based on heredity. Insurance companies, doctors, AMA, CDC are all agree on this.
And, at the end of the day, disease is all too much a result of living on a sinful planet.
That is opinion not fact.
Oldschool claimed that children with disease should be described as having "god given torture". That's a huge stretch, especially given an example of such disease that children get, as a DIRECT RESULT of their parents' misgivings.
On a genetic level, many diseases have been carried down from generation to generation. This is factual.
Kids can get AIDS, because of their parents' screwing around or shooting up dope. They can become retarded if Mom smokes crack or drinks while pregnant. Cancer? People get cancer, because of smoking and other bad habits.
Again that's acquired. For instance, if a female died of lung cancer from smoking, but before dying donated eggs to a bank, the chances of a child reared from that egg being born with lung cancer is low.
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If the male had sex with another female, he's committing adultery, which subject him and the woman to the death penalty. The one case I recall where an adulterer and adulteress were spared such involves David and Bathsheba. However, they certain did not go unpunished for their trangressions, especially David.
If the definition of adultery is to lay with another while being married, then it only applied to women. Men had many wives at that time and even concubines. So no they weren't put to death according to Jewish law.
When you examine laws pertaining to sexual relationships, you have to examine them under Biblical law, and then under Rabbinic law, as the two are not the same. You will discover the inherent inequity in the laws, as things which hold for men do not hold for women. For example, according to biblical law, a man was permitted many wives, and also concubines (which one could equate with either mistresses or concubines). The only way a man could be an adulterer, under biblical law, was if he had relationships with a MARRIED women (i.e. another man's property). Relations with any unmarried women did not constitute adultery for a man. On the other hand, a married women was an adulteress if she had relations with any man not her husband. However, it seems that an adulterous woman was punished, and her husband was then forced to divorce her. An adulterous man, however, could remain married to his wife with impunity.
Anne Neiwirth on the Prodigy God of the Book Board Topic: Judaism, Subject Adultery?
The Levitical laws are just that. And they are based on the Ten Commandments.
Rape was still rampant during the time. Usually the penalty was to marry the virgin girl that was raped. She had no say. Sad.
That's not how Hebrew marriages worked. The betrothment was the contract and had the legal and binding effect of the marriage.
After researching it more, I have to agree.
The passage is Exodus 21:20. The Hebrew word that translates into "punished" is naqam, which translates "to suffer vengeance" or "vengeance be taken (for blood)". Therefore, if the master kills his servant, that master must have vengeance taken upon him (i.e. HE DIES!!!).
venge·ance
/ˈvɛndʒəns/ Show Spelled[ven-juhns] Show IPA
–noun
1.
infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?
2.
an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble: to take one's vengeance.
3.
the desire for revenge: a man full of vengeance.
4.
Obsolete. hurt; injury.
5.
Obsolete. curse; imprecation.
—Idiom
6.
with a vengeance,
a.
with force or violence.
b.
greatly; extremely.
c.
to an unreasonable, excessive, or surprising degree: He attacked the job with a vengeance.
Don't see kill here.
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AHAAAAHAH!!! Spin it however ya wanna....you have sex before marriage it's sin....done and done. People don't like being told what's right and wrong...they wanna live according to their own rules...their own standards. God gave you the choice to do what you want....you get to reap whatever you sow.
Not according to the ot. Having sex usually meant marrying the female or paying for her.
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He lived on earth as a man for over 30 years, was murdered, rose from the dead after three days and visited with his followers. There was a book written by many eye witnesses that details his life and works.....good read. Or you can talk to the millions of his followers whose lives have been changed because of their personal relationships with him.
No eyewitnesses wrote the details. The details were handed down by word or mouth then written much later. ::)
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Answer me this religious folk. I have a particular set of neurons and neural pathways in my brain. They fire and change according to the input they receive (my experiences). I can't in no way prevent this from happening, or affect this in any way can I? So how do I have a free will?
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Michio explains this around 58 min into the video. Awesome video btw. ;D
Hell future will be boring. Computer this, techonology that. Human contact, good bye.
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Prove it.
+1
He lived on earth as a man for over 30 years, was murdered, rose from the dead after three days and visited with his followers. There was a book written by many eye witnesses that details his life and works.....good read. Or you can talk to the millions of his followers whose lives have been changed because of their personal relationships with him.
That was not God.
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This whole statement is stupid. This shows the type of mindset you have. So a kid that has brain cancer who is 5 years old is due to his or his parents "bad habits" lol cmon now. You are not even thinking straight now.
You have just encountered the typical McWishful's line of thinking. Please suspend logic and disconnect from reality to understand it.
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If you're going to debate it, then debate the question I asked.
SHE CAN'T!
Because she lacks the brain cells to provide the logic and basic common sense in order to do so. So instead of answering a question head on, she dances around it with bullshit non answers and deflection.
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Pick up Lee Strobel's "Case For Christ"....it outlines the validity of the scripture, their authors, the gap in time from actual events to written word, the validity of eye witness testimony, etc....I've heard of others books over time, but I haven't read them. Volumes upon volumes have been written about Christ, endless debates have occurred; although, the proof everyone seeks is truly found in a relationship with him - that's the crux of situation that nonbelievers struggle with or dismiss altogether. Open your hearts, read the New Testament, visit a local churh(es), perhaps you could seek guidance from the leadership there but most important would be to seek out counsel from the source himself.....that's the power of prayer.
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Pick up Lee Strobel's "Case For Christ"....it outlines the validity of the scripture, their authors, the gap in time from actual events to written word, the validity of eye witness testimony, etc....I've heard of others books over time, but I haven't read them. Volumes upon volumes have been written about Christ, endless debates have occurred; although, the proof everyone seeks is truly found in a relationship with him - that's the crux of situation that nonbelievers struggle with or dismiss altogether. Open your hearts, read the New Testament, visit a local churh(es), perhaps you could seek guidance from the leadership there but most important would be to seek out counsel from the source himself.....that's the power of prayer.
Relationships with christ are strong with people who have no control over their lives. Whenever hope from an event, incident, tragedy or death is presented the hopeful latch on. Especially when then they feel they have used up all their resources to solve it. Most people that feel they have relationships with christ don't even follow any of the teachings. They just accept him as "savior" and pretend to lead a good life.
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AIDS is "acquired immune dificiency syndrome". Key word is "acquired". Cancer, gene defects etc. aren't acquired. If you're going to debate it, then debate the question I asked.
You claimed that people should say that children born with disease should refer to such as "god given torture", since they refer to people with certain abilities (singing, athleticism, etc) as "god-given abilities".
The key word is indeed, "acquired", when it comes to AIDS. That was the point. Kids with AIDS acquired such from their parents. And how do they end up getting it? Either IV drug use or illicit sexual behavior.
There are plenty of other disease that kids get which are, unfortunately, the result of their parents' bad behavior: Fetal Alcohol syndrome, crack babies born blind, respiratory problems, syphillis-related ailments, etc.
No one would say that such is "god-given torture". Such is the direct cause of parental misgivings. It's awfully hard to have a crack baby if you don't smoke crack. The odds of a mom giving her child Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, when she doesn't drink, are quite slim, too.
Therefore, your blanket statement about kids with diseases, having "god given torture", is off the mark.
SHE CAN'T!
Because she lacks the brain cells to provide the logic and basic common sense in order to do so. So instead of answering a question head on, she dances around it with bullshit non answers and deflection.
As much as the poster boy of buffoonery would love to project his shortcomings onto me, I'm afraid he'll have to shoulder those burdens alone.
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Hell future will be boring. Computer this, techonology that. Human contact, good bye.
No more visits to the doctor, our toilets will evaluate our health via our waste. ;D
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Oldschool Flip, my life isn't perfect but right now I'd consider myself in a pretty good place.....healthy marriage, just became a Dad, good job, strong family ties and relationships, healthy friendships, health is good (could be better of course), good financial position, roof over my head, cars in the driveway and food on the table each day. Yes, I have stress, yes I have bad days, yes I get down, I was recently sick for a month. I'm thankful each day for what God has provided and continues to provide, but sometimes he strips things away and times aren't so great....regardless I return to him...good or bad. I still sin, but I ask for forgiveness and strive to turn from that sin. Last year, my sister lead her fiance to Christ and two months later he passed away....it was devastating. She had faith before his passing, faith during and faith now. For some, yes, God is a crutch during tough times only...unfortunately many Catholics visit church once a year and then flock in mass to pray when a crisis occurs...that's not what I'm referrring to. Again, a relationship with God is a personal one so do what you know is correct according to his word and what he places on your heart.
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If the definition of adultery is to lay with another while being married, then it only applied to women. Men had many wives at that time and even concubines. So no they weren't put to death according to Jewish law.
That definition didn't just apply to women, as the example of King David shows.
Rape was still rampant during the time. Usually the penalty was to marry the virgin girl that was raped. She had no say. Sad.
Rampant is a strecth. The penalty for rapists, involving non-betrothed girls, involved the paying of a dowry and providing for her material care. However, the marriage was not required (per Ex. 21). And, if such did occur, it does not even require their living together. (Ex. 22).
Even today, married couples who split up get separated and live in different houses for years, before the divorce is finalized. They don't share the same roof, often start splitting their finances, and have likely LONG CEASED having sex with each other. Yet, they're still legally married.
As shown with the betrothment period, you can be effectively married and not be allowed to have sex with your wife (yet still have to provide for her food, clothing, and shelter).
venge·ance
/ˈvɛndʒəns/ Show Spelled[ven-juhns] Show IPA
–noun
1.
infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?
2.
an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble: to take one's vengeance.
3.
the desire for revenge: a man full of vengeance.
4.
Obsolete. hurt; injury.
5.
Obsolete. curse; imprecation.
—Idiom
6.
with a vengeance,
a.
with force or violence.
b.
greatly; extremely.
c.
to an unreasonable, excessive, or surprising degree: He attacked the job with a vengeance.
Don't see kill here.
Again, see the definition from the Hebrew, naqam, "vengeance to be taken (for blood)". In the case of a master, killing his servant, that vengeance is the master being put to death.
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As much as the poster boy of buffoonery would love to project his shortcomings onto me, I'm afraid he'll have to shoulder those burdens alone.
Unfortunately like the idiot you are, you still can't answer basic questions and get owned left and right by facts and logic. Dance little girl.... DANCE. Don't worry about those bad old questions, just spin and flail around and around with no substance nor answers in your posts.
Why doesn't your "God" make you a bit smarter if he is so great? Or was this something you acquired from your parents?
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This .gif is exactly what happened to MCWACKY on this thread here.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/35mea77.gif)
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Unfortunately like the idiot you are, you still can't answer basic questions and get owned left and right by facts and logic. Dance little girl.... DANCE. Don't worry about those bad old questions, just spin and flail around and around with no substance nor answers in your posts.
I never worry about "bad old questions" least of all from you, El Clucky!!
The fact that your comprehension is on the fritz ain't my fault. Continue to polish up your MVP award.
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i have good news for all of you atheists in this thread who are so afraid of God because you fear judgement...
God loves you, even if you are evil. even if your a sinner. even if you dont love him or even believe in him. even if you speak out against him, God loves you.
The key to heaven is within your heart... ever hear "its the thought that counts" ?? nothing could ring more true.. what matters is what is in your heart... are you a good person?? that is what matters..
in one of jesus parables he says "those who are last will be first, those who are first will be last, for many have been called but few chosen."
think about that.. i wont gvie you any more help on what it means besides what i wrote above.. and this : salvation is never too late :)
anyways.. time to go smoke some weed and workout my legs... ;) peace out my fellow humans
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I never worry about "bad old questions" least of all from you, El Clucky!!
The fact that your comprehension is on the fritz ain't my fault. Continue to polish up your MVP award.
Still no answer huh? Not surprising. Since you haven't had an answer for anything on the last 27 or so pages of this thread. Again, is this stupidity something God gifted to you or was it acquired while in the womb?
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i have good news for all of you atheists in this thread who are so afraid of God because you fear judgement...
God loves you, even if you are evil. even if your a sinner. even if you dont love him or even believe in him. even if you speak out against him, God loves you.
The key to heaven is within your heart... ever hear "its the thought that counts" ?? nothing could ring more true.. what matters is what is in your heart... are you a good person?? that is what matters..
in one of jesus parables he says "those who are last will be first, those who are first will be last, for many have been called but few chosen."
think about that.. i wont gvie you any more help on what it means besides what i wrote above.. and this : salvation is never too late :)
anyways.. time to go smoke some weed and workout my legs... ;) peace out my fellow humans
Debating the possibility of first cause is one thing, but advocating religion? C'mon man, you're more intelligent than that. >:(
Aside from that. Weed and squats? Interesting combo. :)
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Still no answer huh? Not surprising. Since you haven't had an answer for anything on the last 27 or so pages of this thread. Again, is this stupidity something God gifted to you or was it acquired while in the womb?
Dead wrong and painfully silly as usual, MVP!!
Your claim about my not answering your Flood question (or providing the link to such) is false. Recap:
Many scholars testify to the fact that accounts of a deluge are essentially coexistent with nearly all of the human family. What is more significant is their unusual abundance. Even those who do not believe in a worldwide deluge acknowledge this.... One could hardly expect that accounts of major catastrophes from all over the world would be so selective of one theme of catastrophe if it had not been based on an actual worldwide event. This dominance strains the proposal that these accounts arose locally.
Whether one is a flood geologist, a no-flood geologist, or otherwise, the flood cannot be readily discarded as an incidental historical event. Furthermore, questions concerning this event are the bases of much of the controversy between creation and evolution. Creationists use this event to explain much of the data for which mainstream geologists propose geologic time and evolutionary trends in fossils. It turns out that this event has rather impressive non-biblical authentication. Any system of explanation for origins can ill afford to deny the deluge.
http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm (http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm)
And that’s just a snippet from one of the links I provided. Two other links were posted on page 14.
All of which shows that the Flood was no mere natural disaster or local occurrence. It was on a global scale, which points squarely to one supernatural cause.
Or as also cited earlier,
"There are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory."—Stephen D. Peet, "Story of the Deluge," American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July-August 1905, p. 203.
Again, I made no reference to any historical event. You try to twist and spin the statement to something you want it to be in order to try to deflect the nature of the discussion elsewhere. Won't work. I never said anything about events or things linked to the parting of the sea. I plainly stating parting a sea - any sea for any event - is impossible and has never and will never happen. Now continue with your whinefest and irrelevant topics.
Once again, you've clearly displayed why that MVP award for playing dumb sits firmly on your mantle. There is but one historical event, well-documented associated with the parting of the sea. That is, of course, the Exodus. Add to that modern scientists (some of whom were once skeptics) now airing specials to explain how such a parting of the sea occured, and your little quip basically holds no water.
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Dead wrong and painfully silly as usual, MVP!!
Your claim about my not answering your Flood question (or providing the link to such) is false. Recap:
Many scholars testify to the fact that accounts of a deluge are essentially coexistent with nearly all of the human family. What is more significant is their unusual abundance. Even those who do not believe in a worldwide deluge acknowledge this.... One could hardly expect that accounts of major catastrophes from all over the world would be so selective of one theme of catastrophe if it had not been based on an actual worldwide event. This dominance strains the proposal that these accounts arose locally.
Whether one is a flood geologist, a no-flood geologist, or otherwise, the flood cannot be readily discarded as an incidental historical event. Furthermore, questions concerning this event are the bases of much of the controversy between creation and evolution. Creationists use this event to explain much of the data for which mainstream geologists propose geologic time and evolutionary trends in fossils. It turns out that this event has rather impressive non-biblical authentication. Any system of explanation for origins can ill afford to deny the deluge.
http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm (http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm)
And that’s just a snippet from one of the links I provided. Two other links were posted on page 14.
All of which shows that the Flood was no mere natural disaster or local occurrence. It was on a global scale, which points squarely to one supernatural cause.
Or as also cited earlier,
"There are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory."—Stephen D. Peet, "Story of the Deluge," American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July-August 1905, p. 203.
Once again, you've clearly displayed why that MVP award for playing dumb sits firmly on your mantle. There is but one historical event, well-documented associated with the parting of the sea. That is, of course, the Exodus. Add to that modern scientists (some of whom were once skeptics) now airing specials to explain how such a parting of the sea occured, and your little quip basically holds no water.
Once again... more bullshit.
I clearly stated that my question was NOT in reference to a flood. Something you apparently can't grasp, even when it is spelled out for you.
Nor was it about Moses or his little ark that you bleated on and on about when asked yet AGAIN in prior pages.
What was my question about? Want to try it again? Here is goes.....
WHERE IS PROOF THAT THE FLOOD WAS CAUSED BY GOD?
Simple question. Yet one you have floundered and dance around with non-answers.
Which brings us to another question that the answer might explain why. Does this stupidity come from God's gift to you or from your parents bad habits that you 'acquired' while in the womb?
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This .gif is exactly what happened to MCWACKY on this thread here.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/35mea77.gif)
McWistful being battered senseless by logic, facts and common sense.
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You claimed that people should say that children born with disease should refer to such as "god given torture", since they refer to people with certain abilities (singing, athleticism, etc) as "god-given abilities".
The key word is indeed, "acquired", when it comes to AIDS. That was the point. Kids with AIDS acquired such from their parents. And how do they end up getting it? Either IV drug use or illicit sexual behavior.
There are plenty of other disease that kids get which are, unfortunately, the result of their parents' bad behavior: Fetal Alcohol syndrome, crack babies born blind, respiratory problems, syphillis-related ailments, etc.
No one would say that such is "god-given torture". Such is the direct cause of parental misgivings. It's awfully hard to have a crack baby if you don't smoke crack. The odds of a mom giving her child Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, when she doesn't drink, are quite slim, too.
Therefore, your blanket statement about kids with diseases, having "god given torture", is off the mark.
I think you're missing the point McWay. Apparently christian thinking is that god is responsible for the "miracle" of life. If this is the case, which I'm sure you won't deny since god is whom you worship, then god has the responsibility to give each child a fair starting point in their life. It's not the child's fault that the parents who lived "sinfully", should have to suffer when they had no hand in their decision making. What kind of god is that cruel to those he expects to worship him? Your god, being omnipotent and all, HAS the power to not let this happen, but does because of what.........the parents being bums? Is he trying to punish the parents? If so why use the child as a pawn and the child having NO CHOICE in the matter? At that point, FREE WILL is taken away from this child because the decision will have already been imposed.
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Oldschool Flip, my life isn't perfect but right now I'd consider myself in a pretty good place.....healthy marriage, just became a Dad, good job, strong family ties and relationships, healthy friendships, health is good (could be better of course), good financial position, roof over my head, cars in the driveway and food on the table each day. Yes, I have stress, yes I have bad days, yes I get down, I was recently sick for a month. I'm thankful each day for what God has provided and continues to provide, but sometimes he strips things away and times aren't so great....regardless I return to him...good or bad. I still sin, but I ask for forgiveness and strive to turn from that sin. Last year, my sister lead her fiance to Christ and two months later he passed away....it was devastating. She had faith before his passing, faith during and faith now. For some, yes, God is a crutch during tough times only...unfortunately many Catholics visit church once a year and then flock in mass to pray when a crisis occurs...that's not what I'm referrring to. Again, a relationship with God is a personal one so do what you know is correct according to his word and what he places on your heart.
Again this is because "hope" is always there. With an unseen being, who many believe is loving even with all the faults and sins, being the "relationship" it's pretty easy. If that relationship was one where you were put down, ridiculed, etc. and heard it everyday, I seriously doubt the relationship would last long, or if the person stayed with it, would make the person weak.
It's easy to have a great relationship when the "thought" of always being loved no matter exists, even though the other end of that relationship doesn't communicate with you. And by communicate, I mean not in your head voice, I mean by talking (verbally to you), texting, writing you a letter, etc.
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That definition didn't just apply to women, as the example of King David shows.
So the passage I posted is wrong?
Rampant is a strecth. The penalty for rapists, involving non-betrothed girls, involved the paying of a dowry and providing for her material care. However, the marriage was not required (per Ex. 21). And, if such did occur, it does not even require their living together. (Ex. 22).
McWay the definition of rape is as follows:
rape
1 /reɪp/ Show Spelled [reyp] Show IPA noun, verb,raped, rap·ing.
–noun
1.
the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3.
statutory rape.
4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5.
Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
–verb (used with object)
6.
to force to have sexual intercourse.
7.
to plunder (a place); despoil.
8.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.
Now whether or not dowry was paid, the girl married the raper, etc. THE GIRL WAS FORCEFULLY MADE TO HAVE SEX. You may cookie cut it and justify it, but the fact remains that the girl was forced. Adultery usually isn't a physically forced issue. Now tell me again that rape is the same as adultery and tell that to any girl who has been raped.
Again, see the definition from the Hebrew, naqam, "vengeance to be taken (for blood)". In the case of a master, killing his servant, that vengeance is the master being put to death.
Each definition I found never mentioned "for blood". Vengeance, revenge, avenged, and quarrel were all there though.
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Debating the possibility of first cause is one thing, but advocating religion? C'mon man, you're more intelligent than that. >:(
Aside from that. Weed and squats? Interesting combo. :)
what is religion to you? is the catholic church, radical muslims, racist jews, the hypocrits and the pedophiles the only people that you can equate with religion???
what is advocate?? did i encourage something? or did i pronounce something?
did about 15 sets of squats ... :P
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All water and animals
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I am always shocked at how blindly people will argue about different events in the Bible as if it pertains to this day and age. I grew up in a Baptist house and was in church for over 2 decades before i just dismissed it all and decided just to live a good life and see how it all turns out.
TO BLINDLY ...yes blindly...follow and even argue for events in the bible like The Flood, parting of the red sea, jesus walking on water, people living for hundreds of years, etc on and on, clearly shows the lack of intelligence still present in a lot of our culture.
If your friend came up to you and said...HEY BUDDY, i just made my pool completely part in the middle and walked through it, you would laugh at him and say he is crazy. Even if your buddy said HEY god made it happened, you would still laugh at him.
So why in the world would you believe so blindly in a book that was written 2000+ years ago and 100% believe, with out a shadow of doubt that those events happened?
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All water and animals
;D
All Noah's genetics.
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It's ok Oldschoolflip, regardless of how my words or another believer's words are interpreted/justified through a nonbeliever's perspective all I hope is that you come to find your own relationship with Christ.
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I am always shocked at how blindly people will argue about different events in the Bible as if it pertains to this day and age. I grew up in a Baptist house and was in church for over 2 decades before i just dismissed it all and decided just to live a good life and see how it all turns out.
TO BLINDLY ...yes blindly...follow and even argue for events in the bible like The Flood, parting of the red sea, jesus walking on water, people living for hundreds of years, etc on and on, clearly shows the lack of intelligence still present in a lot of our culture.
If your friend came up to you and said...HEY BUDDY, i just made my pool completely part in the middle and walked through it, you would laugh at him and say he is crazy. Even if your buddy said HEY god made it happened, you would still laugh at him.
So why in the world would you believe so blindly in a book that was written 2000+ years ago and 100% believe, with out a shadow of doubt that those events happened?
I believe followers believed it happened because they don't want to accept death as the be all that ends all. That there has to be more to it than just surviving a life on planet Earth. Man are a lot of them going to be sorely disappointed.
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It's ok Oldschoolflip, regardless of how my words or another believer's words are interpreted/justified through a nonbeliever's perspective all I hope is that you come to find your own relationship with Christ.
Everyone goes through hardship at one time or another in their life. Many need comfort and "guidance" and believe that it's god that does it for them, however I happen to believe that each person finds their own way to deal with it. Hey as long as it makes someone happy, I'm cool with it. My whole family is catholic and pretty devout and know that I gave up on religion a long time ago. But what I've noticed is that with my siblings and cousins, all of them are struggling right now, whereas I get to stay at home and take care of my daughter and home with no struggle. Doesn't seem fair to them and many say I'm lucky, but to be honest, I create my own luck.
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Everyone goes through hardship at one time or another in their life. Many need comfort and "guidance" and believe that it's god that does it for them, however I happen to believe that each person finds their own way to deal with it. Hey as long as it makes someone happy, I'm cool with it. My whole family is catholic and pretty devout and know that I gave up on religion a long time ago. But what I've noticed is that with my siblings and cousins, all of them are struggling right now, whereas I get to stay at home and take care of my daughter and home with no struggle. Doesn't seem fair to them and many say I'm lucky, but to be honest, I create my own luck.
all you Allah deniers will end up a dead corpse, by the sword. You are scum, idiotic, and not worthy of what Allah has prepared for his people. Your demise will come soon, convert or die.
jt
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all you Allah deniers will end up a dead corpse, by the sword. You are scum, idiotic, and not worthy of what Allah has prepared for his people. Your demise will come soon, convert or die.
jt
Serious question:
Doesn't Islam say that being gay is a one way ticket to hell.
And aren't you openly gay?
Simple logic, doesn't this mean you are going to hell?
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all you Allah deniers will end up a dead corpse, by the sword. You are scum, idiotic, and not worthy of what Allah has prepared for his people. Your demise will come soon, convert or die.
jt
Dude, if you're with allah, then I'm more than happy to deny him and what he has in store for his people. :-*
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Serious question:
Doesn't Islam say that being gay is a one way ticket to hell.
And aren't you openly gay?
Simple logic, doesn't this mean you are going to hell?
Dude's a gimmick. Just trying to get a rise out of people.
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christian thinking
"Christian thinking" is an oxymoron.
Bible thumpers reach their current views simply because they are incapable of thinking.
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Once again... more bullshit.
I clearly stated that my question was NOT in reference to a flood. Something you apparently can't grasp, even when it is spelled out for you.
Nor was it about Moses or his little ark that you bleated on and on about when asked yet AGAIN in prior pages.
What was my question about? Want to try it again? Here is goes.....
WHERE IS PROOF THAT THE FLOOD WAS CAUSED BY GOD?
Once again, your pentulence for buffoonery is on prime display. You claim your question isn't in reference to a flood. Yet your question is, "Where is proof that the FLOOD was caused by God?"
That, Einstein, is a reference to a flood, THE Flood, as a matter of fact.
Simple question. Yet one you have floundered and dance around with non-answers.
Wrong again!! The answers are there, along with the links and references to back it. When you're done with the "Hooked on Phonics" session, take a test run.
Which brings us to another question that the answer might explain why. Does this stupidity come from God's gift to you or from your parents bad habits that you 'acquired' while in the womb?
This coming from someone who claims a question about the Flood isn't a reference to the Flood? Too funny!! BTW, genius, Moses didn't build the Ark. It's Noah!!!
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I think you're missing the point McWay. Apparently christian thinking is that god is responsible for the "miracle" of life. If this is the case, which I'm sure you won't deny since god is whom you worship, then god has the responsibility to give each child a fair starting point in their life. It's not the child's fault that the parents who lived "sinfully", should have to suffer when they had no hand in their decision making. What kind of god is that cruel to those he expects to worship him? Your god, being omnipotent and all, HAS the power to not let this happen, but does because of what.........the parents being bums? Is he trying to punish the parents? If so why use the child as a pawn and the child having NO CHOICE in the matter? At that point, FREE WILL is taken away from this child because the decision will have already been imposed.
No, it's not the child's fault. And, therein lies the WORST part about sinful behavior: The trangressor, more often than not, is NOT the only one who pays the price for his misgivings. The more authority you have, the more your good decisions positively affects others and your negative decisions adversly affect others.
If you're a father and you commit certain sins, YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY will pay the price, not just you. If you're a boss and do some dirt, your employees will suffer too.
Or, if you do well and live righteously, your family will be blessed by it. If you make a fortune through your hard work and integrity, your kids will be blessed financially, because of it. Should the Lord take them out of your house and let them live in poverty, just because they didn't earn the money? I don't think you'd agree with that.
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all you Allah deniers will end up a dead corpse, by the sword. You are scum, idiotic, and not worthy of what Allah has prepared for his people. Your demise will come soon, convert or die.
jt
let me reiterate this , so is is not lost on anyone
here is JTCUMONME.........an open homosexual......a sodomite.....a dung-eater......a confused amalgam of male and female hormones who takes other mens cocks in his mouth and asshole.
and he is ADVOCATING militant Islam.....the MOST intolerant religion in the entire world.
there are places in the middle east where he would be summarily executed for being homosexual, most other places he would go to jail.
is just shows what a sick, twisted little C0CKSUCKER JT is.......advocating the denomination least accepting of his way of life
its literally like a jew practicing nazism...
lets throw in some pictures of this sick twisted fuck in for good measure...
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what is religion to you?
Ignorance.
Religion offers an excuse to stop thinking.
15 sets of squats 8)
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Once again, your pentulence for buffoonery is on prime display. You claim your question isn't in reference to a flood. Yet your question is, "Where is proof that the FLOOD was caused by God?"
No, my question is in regards to the PROOF. Hell, I clear as day highlighted the word PROOF in there. Not flood. Unlike you did with your pathetic little deflection attempt. Which failed. Just like your attempt to dig up some PROOF that God caused the flood.
Instead of answering the question, you flail around flapping your gums with non-answers.
That, Einstein, is a reference to a flood, THE Flood, as a matter of fact.
No it wasn't. If it were, then I would have bolded the word flood. But it isn't. What word is bolded? PROOF. You are either very very stupid or very very persistent at trying to appear stupid. I can't tell which it is.
Wrong again!! The answers are there, along with the links and references to back it. When you're done with the "Hooked on Phonics" session, take a test run.
No they are not. Maybe in your mind they are, but then again as we all see, your mind is simply unattached from reality and clear thinking. Please post a link where this PROOF that God created this flood can be found.
This coming from someone who claims a question about the Flood isn't a reference to the Flood? Too funny!! BTW, genius, Moses didn't build the Ark. It's Noah!!!
No, this is coming from someone who asked a question about PROOF God created the flood. Sorry the question isn't the question you want it to be or want to answer, but lack of answer is actually an answer in itself. Really, simple questions are beyond your scope. Does becoming a religious nut make you stupid or do you already have to be stupid to become a religious nut in the first place? What was your experience? Because, obviously you are quite stupid.
And whether Moses, Noah, Johnny Appleseed or whatever, when dealing with a bullshit story like the Bible, it doesn't really matter what their names are.
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28 pages!? You gotta stop feeding this religious troll, guys. Oh brother.
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No, it's not the child's fault. And, therein lies the WORST part about sinful behavior: The trangressor, more often than not, is NOT the only one who pays the price for his misgivings. The more authority you have, the more your good decisions positively affects others and your negative decisions adversly affect others.
If you're a father and you commit certain sins, YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY will pay the price, not just you. If you're a boss and do some dirt, your employees will suffer too.
Or, if you do well and live righteously, your family will be blessed by it. If you make a fortune through your hard work and integrity, your kids will be blessed financially, because of it. Should the Lord take them out of your house and let them live in poverty, just because they didn't earn the money? I don't think you'd agree with that.
So what you're saying is that a child's birth outcome is more directly affected by his parents and not god's power?
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So what you're saying is that a child's birth outcome is more directly affected by his parents and not god's power?
LOL!!! Now watch how she runs in a circle to avoid stepping in that contradiction she laid out earlier.
Didn't you know? If it is a "blessing" it is God's credit.
If it's not, then it's the parent's fault.
Religious tards choke themselves by creating their own Catch 22 situation.
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So what you're saying is that a child's birth outcome is more directly affected by his parents and not god's power?
Nope!!! What I'm saying is that parents' behavior, one way or the other, can affect the lives of their children (for better or worse).
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This thread has been going on for weeks and guess what... They are still not releasing the location.
Bunch of phonies is all they are.
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No, my question is in regards to the PROOF. Hell, I clear as day highlighted the word PROOF in there. Not flood. Unlike you did with your pathetic little deflection attempt. Which failed. Just like your attempt to dig up some PROOF that God caused the flood.
Instead of answering the question, you flail around flapping your gums with non-answers.
And, the answers given was part of that PROOF. Therefore, the only flailing being done is by the president and CEO of Goofball, Inc. (aka LurkerNoMore, who's also a client).
No it wasn't. If it were, then I would have bolded the word flood. But it isn't. What word is bolded? PROOF. You are either very very stupid or very very persistent at trying to appear stupid. I can't tell which it is.
And, that proof, for the nth time was shown, with references and links for further inspection and reading. But, rather than actually doing such, you chose to cry and blubber, like a kindegarten kid who's been denied his daily ration of graham crackers.
No they are not. Maybe in your mind they are, but then again as we all see, your mind is simply unattached from reality and clear thinking. Please post a link where this PROOF that God created this flood can be found.
Already did, multiple times. Again, when you're finished with your "Hooked on Phonics" session, put your acquired skills to use.
No, this is coming from someone who asked a question about PROOF God created the flood. Sorry the question isn't the question you want it to be or want to answer, but lack of answer is actually an answer in itself. Really, simple questions are beyond your scope. Does becoming a religious nut make you stupid or do you already have to be stupid to become a religious nut in the first place? What was your experience? Because, obviously you are quite stupid.
Since I'm hardly a religious nut and your repeatedly-whined question has been repeatedly answered, spare me your infantile whining.
There's no lack of an answer, just a lack of nutrients to your head and a chronic inability to read and process simple words. But, that is your cross to bear, not mine.
And whether Moses, Noah, Johnny Appleseed or whatever, when dealing with a bullshit story like the Bible, it doesn't really matter what their names are.
Yet, more shining example of your supreme bufoonery!! Come back, when you have a clue.
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28 pages!? You gotta stop feeding this religious troll, guys. Oh brother.
(http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/feeding_trolls.jpg)
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Ignorance.
Religion offers an excuse to stop thinking.
15 sets of squats 8)
its clear you just have no idea what true religion is..
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I've seen God after a hard set of squats
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Nope!!! What I'm saying is that parents' behavior, one way or the other, can affect the lives of their children (for better or worse).
That's a given. I was referring to you stating that a child being born from parents who lived "sinfully" DIRECTLY impacts why at birth they have debilitations. If the parents are the cause, then it contradicts if a child is born with cancer, but both parents are christians who follow the commandments, rest on sabbath, follow works of christ, etc.
It can't work both ways.
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its clear you just have no idea what true religion is..
Once one assumes to know or have absolute knowledge of, critical thinking falls to the wayside, hindering the attaining of knowledge, as has been well demonstrated by many of the pro-theistic posts in this thread.
Religion offers absolutes in place of skepticism or critical thinking.
Religion attempts to escape criticism by reverting to the idea of god being unknowable and the fallibility and supposed arrogance of human knowledge. It's well known that throughout recent history, say the last 2000 years or so, religion has sought to retard the development of the humanities by inserting their own religious ideologies and certainties in their place.
Perhaps you're referring to personal belief as opposed to religion? Or perhpas you're referring to this ---> http://www.gotquestions.org/true-religion.html
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Once one assumes to know or have absolute knowledge of, critical thinking falls to the wayside, hindering the attaining of knowledge, as has been well demonstrated by many of the pro-theistic posts in this thread.
Religion offers absolutes in place of skepticism or critical thinking.
Religion attempts to escape criticism by reverting to the idea of god being unknowable and the fallibility and supposed arrogance of human knowledge. It's well known that throughout recent history, say the last 2000 years or so, religion has sought to retard the development of the humanities by inserting their own religious ideologies and certainties in their place.
Perhaps you're referring to personal belief as opposed to religion? Or perhpas you're referring to this ---> http://www.gotquestions.org/true-religion.html
a wise man knows he is a fool, a fool thinks he is a wise man..
atheists think they know. they think they know physics, the big bang, evolution, and magic doesnt exist. they know these things, and they assume they know metaphysics as well. they assume they know that metaphysics are just curently unkown but explainable regular physics, with no divine or transcendental force involved besides some kind of eternal energy..
they assume this, they think they know.
their assumptions fail to provide a definite answer, fail to provide any plausible explanations for existence... yet they insist on forcing them into peoples heads.
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a wise man knows he is a fool, a fool thinks he is a wise man..
atheists think they know. they think they know physics, the big bang, evolution, and magic doesnt exist. they know these things, and they assume they know metaphysics as well. they assume they know that metaphysics are just curently unkown but explainable regular physics, with no divine or transcendental force involved besides some kind of eternal energy..
they assume this, they think they know.
their assumptions fail to provide a definite answer, fail to provide any plausible explanations for existence... yet they insist on forcing them into peoples heads.
YOU have lost touch with reality, none of what you said has to do with atheism. You guys are the ones making the positive assertion, not us. You are making an assumption that is unfounded when you demand an explanation for existence, perhaps there is none, one we can't answer, it's ok to say you dont know.
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YOU have lost touch with reality, none of what you said has to do with atheism. You guys are the ones making the positive assertion, not us. You are making an assumption that is unfounded when you demand an explanation for existence, perhaps there is none, one we can't answer, it's ok to say you dont know.
Yep.
Man has always required an explanation for all of those things in the world he did not understand. If an explanation was not available, he created one. – Jim Crawford
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YOU have lost touch with reality, none of what you said has to do with atheism. You guys are the ones making the positive assertion, not us. You are making an assumption that is unfounded when you demand an explanation for existence, perhaps there is none, one we can't answer, it's ok to say you dont know.
and heres why atheists cant contribute in a religious conversation..
you dont see the answer, but its clear
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and heres why atheists cant contribute in a religious conversation..
you dont see the answer, but its clear
hahahahahaaaa you're too funny
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you dont see the answer, but its clear
:(
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And, the answers given was part of that PROOF. Therefore, the only flailing being done is by the president and CEO of Goofball, Inc. (aka LurkerNoMore, who's also a client).
Incorrect. You are attempting to pass off your opinion as fact. Not happening. Seeing you have no concept or grasp of what a FACT is, one can conclude this is the basis for all your delusions. Continue to flail around instead of posting FACTS which directly PROVE that God sent that flood. That is your only recourse of action.
And, that proof, for the nth time was shown, with references and links for further inspection and reading. But, rather than actually doing such, you chose to cry and blubber, like a kindegarten kid who's been denied his daily ration of graham crackers.
Nope. No proof at all. Where is PROOF that God sent that flood? Link? Anywhere? Once again you are proving yourself as the tard we all know you are.
Already did, multiple times. Again, when you're finished with your "Hooked on Phonics" session, put your acquired skills to use.
Considering you have not answered a very simple question posed a dozen pages ago... I would suspect you need the Hooked on Phonics more than anyone. Or maybe Hooked On Reality.
Since I'm hardly a religious nut and your repeatedly-whined question has been repeatedly answered, spare me your infantile whining.
If you are not a religious nut, then you must just be incredibly stupid. Then again, most religious nuts are. No surprise there. Again, your opinion - as flawed and delusional as it is- does not constitute the FACT to where there is PROOF that your fat invisible man on the cloud sent that flood.
There's no lack of an answer, just a lack of nutrients to your head and a chronic inability to read and process simple words. But, that is your cross to bear, not mine.
Again, is your stupidity a "God given talent" or did you acquire it from your parents? Which one? Perhaps you can "pray" that this intellectual defect doesn't fall on any future generations. You are the perfect example of why Christianity and religions as a whole are dying out.
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This is all very simple. If you don't believe that Christ is the Son of God. If you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and the prophecy it contains. If you don't believe that the New Testament was written by a handful of men (fishermen, lawyers, carpenters, etc...) and chronicles the life of Christ, his works and includes eye witness testimony about Christ. If you don't believe in his sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection. If you don't believe that the people of Israel are God's people (have always been and always will be). If you don't believe the life-changing testimonies of other believers. If you don't believe that the road to salvation and eternal life are through belief in Christ. If you don't believe that believers in Christ see the world with new eyes and refocused hearts and recognize the sin in the world like never before.....then there is nothing else a believer can offer. The belief in Christ is not about knowing every facet of theology, knowing how to debate every question that arises or having the ability to stamp all competing philosophies out. The belief in Christ is about salvation, love and sharing his message with others. The individual, tangible proof believers have resides in each of them (these are the "warm and fuzzy feelings".....the Christian crutch that nonbelievers casually dismiss as some form of delusion or partial insanity); in essense, this is the personal relationship we have with Christ. It's a believers responsibility to live by example...act as a representative for Christ, but knowing full well we may stumble in our walk, but that we are forgiven...that our sins have been washed away because of his sacrifice and that we can return to him and refocus ourselves. This isn't a license to a sin and should never be viewed as such, but his sacrifice does pardon all his believers from their sin....past, present and future. I you do not believe in him or his sacrifice or his gift of eternal life there is little else a believer can offer other than their prayers. It is not by our works that we are aligned with Christ, but through our belief in him (and his works). Debating my words is meaningless. All that matters is whether or not you choose to align yourself with Christ and receive his gift of salvation.....the choice is yours.
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This is all very simple. If you don't believe that Christ is the Son of God. If you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and the prophecy it contains. If you don't believe that the New Testament was written by a handful of men (fishermen, lawyers, carpenters, etc...) and chronicles the life of Christ, his works and includes eye witness testimony about Christ. If you don't believe in his sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection. If you don't believe that the people of Israel are God's people (have always been and always will be). If you don't believe the life-changing testimonies of other believers. If you don't believe that the road to salvation and eternal life are through belief in Christ. If you don't believe that believers in Christ see the world with new eyes and refocused hearts and recognize the sin in the world like never before.....then there is nothing else a believer can offer. The belief in Christ is not about knowing every facet of theology, knowing how to debate every question that arises or having the ability to stamp all competing philosophies out. The belief in Christ is about salvation, love and sharing his message with others. The individual, tangible proof believers have resides in each of them (these are the "warm and fuzzy feelings".....the Christian crutch that nonbelievers casually dismiss as some form of delusion or partial insanity); in essense, this is the personal relationship we have with Christ. It's a believers responsibility to live by example...act as a representative for Christ, but knowing full well we may stumble in our walk, but that we are forgiven...that our sins have been washed away because of his sacrifice and that we can return to him and refocus ourselves. This isn't a license to a sin and should never be viewed as such, but his sacrifice does pardon all his believers from the sin....past, present and future. I you do not believe in him or his sacrifice or his gift of eternal life there is little else a believer can offer other than their prayers. It is not by our works that we are aligned with Christ, but through our belief in him (and his works). Debating my words is meaningless. All that matters is whether or not you choose to align yourself with Christ and his gift of salvation.....the choice is yours.
I'm perfectly happy with not adhering to a man made death cult. Have fun with your Jesus.
P.S Found the wandering Jew yet?
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Sounds great lovemonkey...you do that!
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Yes, I'll do that.
Why is it not enough to be a kind, responsible and understanding person? Why does Jesus have to be invoked in all this? Why would Jesus send me to hell for not agreeing with the stuff he preaches when he's such a loving character? He sounds more like an abusive husband than anything to me.
"Oh honey, I love you very much but you know what happens when you step over the line"
*SMACK!*
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God has given us the choice to sin or not and the punishment for our sin is death and seperation from him eternally in hell. God has given us the choice to sin or not to sin, but he has paid the debt for our sin by his death on the cross....each of us should be hung on a cross, but he paid the price for us...he loves us that much. He created the law, took our punishment and saved us from an eternity seperated from him. If we believe he is our risen Lord and Savior, confess of our sins we are forgiven and aligned with him. We then begin our walk with Christ and are saved from our sin. It is not by our own works that we are saved from our sin....our salvation lies in Christ, his loving sacrifice for us on the cross and his gift of eternal life with him.
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God has given us the choice to sin or not and the punishment for our sin is death and seperation from him eternally in hell. God has given us the choice to sin or not to sin, but he has paid the debt for our sin by his death on the cross....each of us should be hung on a cross, but he paid the price for us...he loves us that much. He created the law, took our punishment and saved us from an eternity seperated from him. If we believe he is our risen Lord and Savior, confess of our sins we are forgiven and aligned with him. We then begin our walk with Christ and are saved from our sin. It is not by our own works that we are saved from our sin....our salvation lies in Christ, his loving sacrifice for us on the cross and his gift of eternal life with him.
You do know that the few and scattered historical records(gospels can not be relied upon for much) that exists from the time period actually indicates that Jesus(not his real name btw) was more a political activist than anything. He was a jew among jews, fighting for the rights of jews under the threat of the Roman empire. He never consider himself to be christ and certainly not the founder of a new religion.
The "savior" you're referring to is not much more than a fabrication by the early christian/vatican church. The words you take for granted to be your gods have been modified, censured and translated several times by mere mortal humans.
But this is were you say it's all about your own personal relationship with god and how factual arguments won't change your perception and love for jesus etc. Your mind is shut. How can you be so sure of all the things you say when even the slightest effort to look into the historical Jesus would give you an entirely different outlook on the matter? How can you be 100% sure that the bible is the word of god?
Being an "know it all" non-believer is not necessarily all about knowing more than others but rather having the will to learn and discover and never stop questioning, things that no human being should ever stop doing. I'm not claiming to be more knowledgeable than you but I sure as hell try to think twice before submitting my entire existence to a potential farce.
As I said before, I do feel sorry for you. I'm sure you feel sorry for me as well for not having found christ. We can at least take comfort in the mutuality of our well wishes.
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This is all very simple. If you don't believe that Christ is the Son of God. If you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and the prophecy it contains. If you don't believe that the New Testament was written by a handful of men (fishermen, lawyers, carpenters, etc...) and chronicles the life of Christ, his works and includes eye witness testimony about Christ. If you don't believe in his sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection. If you don't believe that the people of Israel are God's people (have always been and always will be). If you don't believe the life-changing testimonies of other believers. If you don't believe that the road to salvation and eternal life are through belief in Christ. If you don't believe that believers in Christ see the world with new eyes and refocused hearts and recognize the sin in the world like never before.....then there is nothing else a believer can offer. The belief in Christ is not about knowing every facet of theology, knowing how to debate every question that arises or having the ability to stamp all competing philosophies out. The belief in Christ is about salvation, love and sharing his message with others. The individual, tangible proof believers have resides in each of them (these are the "warm and fuzzy feelings".....the Christian crutch that nonbelievers casually dismiss as some form of delusion or partial insanity); in essense, this is the personal relationship we have with Christ. It's a believers responsibility to live by example...act as a representative for Christ, but knowing full well we may stumble in our walk, but that we are forgiven...that our sins have been washed away because of his sacrifice and that we can return to him and refocus ourselves. This isn't a license to a sin and should never be viewed as such, but his sacrifice does pardon all his believers from their sin....past, present and future. I you do not believe in him or his sacrifice or his gift of eternal life there is little else a believer can offer other than their prayers. It is not by our works that we are aligned with Christ, but through our belief in him (and his works). Debating my words is meaningless. All that matters is whether or not you choose to align yourself with Christ and receive his gift of salvation.....the choice is yours.
It all sounds nice and promising............but there's no way to prove that anyone that has accepted jesus is in heaven, that god exists or any of what you post is true. To you it is, but what of jews, muslims, buddists, bahai's etc? Every religion believes they are the ONLY one to believe, but none can prove that it is.
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God has given us the choice to sin or not and the punishment for our sin is death and seperation from him eternally in hell. God has given us the choice to sin or not to sin, but he has paid the debt for our sin by his death on the cross....each of us should be hung on a cross, but he paid the price for us...he loves us that much. He created the law, took our punishment and saved us from an eternity seperated from him. If we believe he is our risen Lord and Savior, confess of our sins we are forgiven and aligned with him. We then begin our walk with Christ and are saved from our sin. It is not by our own works that we are saved from our sin....our salvation lies in Christ, his loving sacrifice for us on the cross and his gift of eternal life with him.
Choice yes, free will no. Free will is not made under constrained pressure from external agencies or forces. god's "offer" is a constrained ultimatum. There's no other "choices" in between. It's either live with him happy, or live in pain for eternity. Sorry, but a god who supposedly offers free will, really isn't.
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lovemonkey, try reading "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel if you have interest.
Yes, you and I can now simply agree to disagree.
Oldschool flip, I believe we have also agreed to disagree as well.
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the idea of a god goes against any logic and reason.
Ayn Rand puts it nicely