find two hours, its better than an eternity in hell
You have that signed by God himself and with a stamp of approval or just wishful thinking?
Jews believe if you are a Jew you go to heaven regardless and if you are a non-jew regardless of how you were, you eternally perish.
More wishful thinking :) Maybe you haven't dedicated enough time for God, to be aware and was only told to believe that ;) Blind faith is no faith at all just the blind leading the blind.
This video I posted is by a non-muslim, a christian btw.
Empty hoo haa emotional statements no facts.Church attendance, sunday school attendance, prayer meeting attendance, church camp attendance, etc...is meaningless on it's own. I mean no offense by that statement either.
I also went as a child to christian camps and they used to play "Jesus loves you" all night long until we fell asleep and kept us in the chapel for hours singing Jesus saved mankind, Jesus loves us all.
However, besides the emotional non-sense it didn't come anywhere near close to what the scriptures or history teach.
So again, you are running on blind faith, emotional rhetoric and no proof. Conjecture and wishful thinking is not proof.
You are still running on blind faith, blind leading the blind.
You are claiming you are going to heaven just because you are christian and 'saved by Jesus'.
This is not from God, this is not even from the utterance of Jesus. It's your own wishful thinking
If you read the scriptures your trinitarian beliefs are destroyed.
God is one not a demigod, or three persons or whatever other non-sense.
And about 'personal experience', there are hindus who claim things happened to them but they worship cows and idols.
But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws. Matthew 7:23 '
You actually have no genuine relation with Christ because you are not following his teachings or message nor dress like him or believe what he believed or thought. You follow your desires.
You are just repeating that Jesus saved you, that's an empty statement. You are repeating that you are going to heaven. That is an unproven empty statement and your wishful thinking. You are stating Jesus is God, yet that is also wishful thinking and blasphemy.
Jesus didn't teach the trinity, but you do.
You abandoned God's law and follow the teachings of the church, of paul, constantine a pagan did away with the law of God.
So no you are not following Christ, you are CLAIMING it, but not in action just emotional rhetoric.
The trinity is a pagan belief but not all christians believe in it. Christianity is not the problem its hundreds of years of lies spread by the chatholic church and other so called christian organizations to control the masses. At the age of 25 I recognized this through study but it didnt make leave christianity just the catholic church.
And since we've gotten back on topic. This verse for example is a forgery:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)
The fact that some hardcore christians actually believe that the bible is the word of God should tremble from it's foundation. Secondly, the fact that verses like these were deliberately forged to introduce the trinity should make one think. Not to mention the church chose to NOT include certain gospel writings and denounced them "the apocrypha" because they CHALLENGED the trinitarian teachings of the church which basically play on words that God is 'whole' but 'three persons' and all the other semantic explanations which really are pagan and not Jesus' teachings.
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. ... Surah 4:171
Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.
And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
5:44-45
The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in God, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say), “We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers” and they say, “We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all).” Quran 2:285
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. 2:79
There is no such thing as luck :) And I wouldn't put my faith in 'luck'.
What is it in your heart that is preventing you from denouncing falsehood and lies against God and embracing the eternal truth of God? Petty benefit of this world? Fear of people?
God's reward is eternal... and the suffering of this world temporary. God is the most merciful and most compassionate.
Lying against God is a great sin.. and misleading others away from the truth of God.
You keep silent on the verses which tear apart the trinity in the bible. And you turn a blind eye to the verses which are forgeries of men which you cling onto for creed and resolution of faith..
Jesus was angry when he faced the crooks at the temple. Being angry against falsehood is a good characteristics. That does not mean that one is not merciful or compassionate. God is just and demands justice and will serve justice on the day of judgment.
So your argument and proof is still emotion?
You seem afraid to look at scripture, because if you look at scripture it destroys your belief of the trinity. I am not even talking qur'an, I am purely talking bible. The qur'an just re-affirms what I already found out and know.
Like I've said. I've had my own experiences, things that absolutely prove to me God is watching me. I've also had dreams like the one I've already mentioned of Jesus telling me that there is only one God. Now... you would not believe that why because you believe in trinitarianism.
Likewise, you having cited your example, I told you... even HINDUS who worship vishnu, krishna, hanuman and all sorts of idols and things will tell you they 'experienced things' in their life which affirm their faith.
Now are you going to argue that these idols are true or real? No. The irony with hindus is.. if you read THEIR scriptures it ALSO says do not make graven images of God. It also says God is one :) It's there.. lol... yet the brahman priests will say the people are 'too dumb' to understand God, so they need idols to get 'closer to God'.
As you can see yet again even in hinduism it is MEN who twist the truth just as the trinity is a lie forged by men.
So you are not bringing anything to the table except your emotion. You have faith but clearly you have no knowledge. Your faith is being misguided.
God watches over us, provides for us, ALL, whether we believe or disbelieve. He puts tests in front of us whether we believe or disbelieve. HE is the one that gives us our sustenance and tests us with it. He can give and take. This all regardless if you believe or disbelieve, regardless if you turn to idols or Him alone. BUT you will be in the end questioned for what you did and believed. As this life is meant but as a test and a short passing time. The angel of death does not discriminate young or old. If God decrees it that is it. We will all eventually return to God and be questioned.
You have no argument for the trinity as you know the scriptures are against you so you are resorting to emotion?
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
—Acts 9:7, King James Version (KJV)
The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, for they heard the voice but could see no one.
—Acts 9:7, New American Bible (NAB)
The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.
—Acts 9:7, New International Version (NIV)
And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
—Acts 22:9, King James Version (KJV)
My companions saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who spoke to me.
—Acts 22:9, New American Bible (NAB)
My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.
—Acts 22:9, New International Version (NIV)
Paul's unreliable fake accounts of him witnessing and converting:
An unreliable fraud
So in conclusion the bible is not the word of God. It is the word of men. Unreliable and formed from dissected selective writings. Some that CLAIM they are INSPIRED by God. WHO were these people? We cannot know for sure besides Paul. No names, no references, no last names (not to mention it is a strong semetic tradition to always indicate son of son of son of etc... when referencing people). The riddle continues. Not to mention the apocrypha which you don't care about you should. Writings the church deliberately ignored because they contradict the trinitarian non-sense.Correct, the inspired word of God.
You run circles around the facts of the verses that are known forgeries, so that you get out of trouble.
The trinity is a lie. God is one. God is not a man. Things that the old testament thought us from long before Paul came long with his blasphemies.
I've watched plenty of Shabir Ally, Ahmed deedat and non-muslim non-trinitarian debates on the subject to just reaffirm what I already have come to know.
The trinity was not once mentioned by Jesus himself even if we are to take Paul's writings as credible. Jesus kept emphasizing GOD is one, God is one in heaven, that only God knows the time of the hour, that Jesus himself or the angels do not. This by itself shows Jesus is not God.
You call Muhammad a false prophet? Yet he delivered people from darkness into light?
Paul and the romans destroyed God's law and brought people into the dark ages for a thousand years.
You shall know them by their fruits.
You keep ranting about being 'blessed' for worshipping Jesus a man.
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? Numbers 23:19
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mark 13:32
"He withdrew about a stone's throw and prayed, 'Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done'" Luke 22:41-42
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken away from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will'" Matthew 26:39 & Matthew 26:42
'Abba, Father,' he said, 'everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will" Mark 14:36
You bring great injustice upon Jesus by lying in his name
But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'Matthew 7:23
Unless you're implying God is bi-polar and that God goes back on his word, deceives, lies and changes his mind and is in fact a man... then these verses show that Jesus obeyed the will of God, was not God, not a man, and prayed to God.
Ahmed... are you silly enough to think that the Koran was never manipulated or altered as you claim the Christian bible has been? Here is the main difference between modern Muslims and modern Christians... both believe they are right... both believe the other is wrong... but if I say the Bible is crap no one wants to cut my head off. How does it make you feel when I say the only thing I would ever do with the Koran is rip out the pages and wipe my ass on them? If I said that right to your face? Islam has no turn the other cheek which makes them barbarians no matter what has happened in the past, one religion changed and one didn't. Guess which one is still living on the stone ages?
"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" (Gospel of Matthew 10:34)
Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. (Matthew 10:34–39 NASB)
The funny thing is, 'cross' was something that later christians idolized. Pretty ironic to find this verse the way it is, isn't it?
Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions. Surah An-Nisa' 82 (The Women)
The qur'an is as it was revealed 1400 years ago.
Every qur'an in existence is the same. Pick up any qur'an of today and it is the same.
On the other hand the bible not only fails this litmus test, it even has arithmetic errors. Are you going to call God poor at math? It just shows that it has been mendled by human hands as the qur'an indicates and as us Muslims know and believe.
To be Muslim we must accept and acknowledge the revelations, The torah, Gospel as revealed to Jesus, David's zabur (psalms), etc... but we acknowledge that men have changed their for their petty worldly gains.
You will not find a single qur'an differ. On the other hand, biblical scripture (I am not even talking about translations which are erronous on another level) differ in some crucial issues especially when it comes to doctrine and verses from which doctrine is derived from.
There was no such thing as a 'church' until the 'church' happened.
There was Synagogues and Jewish temples as Jesus himself preached in.
What that verse means is that he has come to turn even family against each other, so that those that believe in God and obey his messenger are evident and those that are treacherous like the rabbis of that time who were after the wealth of this world and power. Corrupt.
The only good life to lead is one in belief and obedience of God.
As the story goes, the Qur'an was delivered directly from Allah by the angel Gabriel and was then recited to the prophet Mohammed by the angel Gabriel. Due to Mohammed's illiteracy he memorized the entire text and then worked with a group of scribes to put the entire memorized message into written form over a 20+ year period all under his complete direction. All that said, the Qur'an was tranferred into print by a group of scribles from a single source....Mohammed. IMHO, of course it's perfectly preserved and untampered with, it came from one source....in my estimation that makes its transfer to print far less impressive.
Further, it has not one single, external, corroborating source to defend any of its tenets. In addition, it came into being some 500-600 years after the bible was in full canonical form. Now I certainly believe in God providing divine revelation to certain people....especially unlikely people.
Although, the Islamic denial of Christ as the resurrected Lord I simply can't ignore. Labeling Christ as simply a prophet who takes second fiddle to Mohammed just screams "red flag" for a believer (for a nonbeliever they find all religion to be nonsense).
Christians don't deny certain arithmetic differences in scripture...the 10, 11, 12 disciple count for example is mere minutia and takes nothing from the core of Christ and his resurrection. Christians know who wrote the inspired gospels and the NT...there's very little discussion in that regard,
but it takes absolute blind faith to trust in the words of Mohammed no matter how beautifully they may be written. He may not have been able to read or write, but he could certainly think and talk and did so for 20 years to his scribes who then crafted his words for him. And of course they took no liberties during their dictation correct?
No you are the one spinning the meaning actually. You want to see what is not there. Just as you will 'see' the trinity in the old testament but its not there only your wishful conjecture.
Wow, I'm baffled. So we know whom this was revealed to and its perfectly preserved from more than 1400 years ago. And you find this MEH?
On the other hand the bible is riddled with forgeries and words of various men, scribes, historians, rabbis, God, prophets, unknowns, frauds and that to you is more impressive? Not to mention other works are deliberately not included (apocrypha). Not impressive at all. Just very non-credible.
God is the one that defends it and affirms it and ultimately has today preserved it.
It reaffirms what was BEFORE and continous the same message. While paul a no body, claimed to have visions and sounds and RADICALLY changed the message of God and turned a monotheistic religion into a triunetheistic religion worshipping a MAN who is supposedly GOD and committed suicide on a cross to 'save mankind' so that sins are forgiven. Wait what?
So what if there is a 500-600-700- whatever time difference? God ALWAYS sent messengers and prophets to people because they DEVIATED from the original message. That is why we have so many off shoot religions, sects, groups, etc.. God is one and has one eternal message to all mankind. It is MEN who deviate because they follow their vain desires and not God's commandments.
Each time these prophets came back to educate mankind... but again and again people slowly deviate.
Jesus was sent to the children of Jacob/Israel... as they deviated yet again. They had the law, yet they did not have faith. Hence Jesus' focus on emotion/faith and not just the law, although he said he has not come to abolish it but to enact it. And he repeated the most important statement given to Jews. Hear oh Israel, your Lord God is one Lord.
That's because you are blindly following your desires. There is no 'red flag'. Your beliefs are what are a 'red flag' you go away completely from the original teaching of all the past prophets and of Jesus himself. You radically change into following this unknown Paul and the romans.
No they don't. They are unknown authors. Attributed mostly to paul's own writings.
No actually, it takes a BRAIN to rationally believe in what he revealed. It takes blind faith to believe that Jesus was God, a man, and committed suicide on the cross saved mankind and we are now sin free. Total non-sense.
Muhammad preached what all the past prophets preached. God is one. Eternal. Forgiving and merciful but also stern in punishment. There is no contradiction or deviation only firmness and principle.
For 23 years the non-muslim arabs persecuted Muhammad and his companions but God's speech prevails over the lies of men who slander God almighty.
No spinning....that's just what it means LOL!
No it doesn't
It's like someone talking about a ferrari going around a track. It's red, its a ferrari, its going around a track.
You come along and say no actually thats not the correct meaning its not REALLY a ferrari, its a car of mystery, and its not really red, its actually something you must feel, its not really going around a track, its flying.
-_-
Well the moral of the story is. You are not actually following scripture only your wishful conjectures and blind faith that you persist regardless of what you are confronted with. Nor are you aware of history as you would then know how the trinity creeped in slowly and the original teachings of Jesus dissapeeard and were replaced with pagan ones that turned Jesus into a God
Lots of great info in this thread, thanks ahmed! I'll take a closer read and make some notes later when I have time at home. I've been discussing this same issue with my father in law a lot lately.
The bible is actually the inspired word of God which contains many writings put together, some included, some excluded with definite, deliberate, inspired purpose.I must say that Shabir Ally is a tremendous speaker...very impressed with him.
I addressed the "fabrications and forgeries" related to Mark and John in the other thread you started.
I can't speak to the story of the prostitute being a fabrication.
I like your shortcut approach in that you just deny all of Paul's writing as inspired from the outset and save yourself the trouble....no muss, no fuss.
Here'a 2+ hour discussion that you may review. I enjoyed it, both speakers are very good.
A repost, but contains some of the information from above:
I must say that Shabir Ally is a tremendous speaker...very impressed with him.
X2 - I've had the honour of meeting him several times, having lunch with him twice, driving him from and to the airport and delivering meals to his room while he was preparing for an interfaith dialogue the next day. This was all 10 years ago though. I can't see the video right now on my phone browser but will check it out when I'm at home.
Proverbs 8
New International Version (NIV)
Wisdom’s Call
8 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, set your hearts on it.[a]
6 Listen, for I have trustworthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are upright to those who have found knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have insight, I have power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers issue decrees that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and nobles—all who rule on earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,[c][d]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly[e] at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my children, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not disregard it.
34 Blessed are those who listen to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For those who find me find life
and receive favor from the Lord.
36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves;
all who hate me love death.”
Footnotes:
Proverbs 8:5 Septuagint; Hebrew foolish, instruct your minds
Proverbs 8:16 Some Hebrew manuscripts and Septuagint; other Hebrew manuscripts all righteous rulers
Proverbs 8:22 Or way; or dominion
Proverbs 8:22 Or The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work; or The Lord brought me forth at the beginning of his work
Proverbs 8:30 Or was the artisan; or was a little child
You realize people will not bother reading such a long copy paste and especially in blue which hurts the eyes?
You can't seem to argue point by point. And when I try to you just talk about 'i already found christ' or some other emotional response.
You can't seem to argue yourself using scripture.
You believe that you came from nothing and will perish ::)
I guess you are nothing now. It's all an accident, this post is an accident. it's all an illusion ::)
Stick to the atheist thread where I did not post.
Muhammad (pbuh) is called the walking qur'an sometimes... why? Because he was the embodiment of a believer and God's commands.
If you call this 'scholarly' work then I guess you don't know what a true scholar is.
It seems it's the same site you copy pasted from all the information. Someone who takes verses from teh qur'an out of context and conjures up their own meaning to mislead people is not a scholar but just another missionary islamophobe with ulterior motives of misleading people away from Islam and trying to persuade people about christianity's 'mercy' message (a bunch of emotional hoo haa far from reality). Orientalists call themselves 'scholars', yet they thought Muslims worshipped the moon. This is not scholarship, it's ulterior motives.
A God that does not know? A God that dies? A God that commits suicide? A God that needs food and water? A God that eats himself as sacrifice? A God that needs human blood sacrifice? A God that is human? A God that changes his mind?
That is not God. God only changes the criterion for people, but He himself does not. All of the above are nothing but blasphemies by those that came after Jesus peace be upon him.
And Jesus.. was not God. Because what God does not KNOW?
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. Mark 13:32
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."Luke 22:42
A God that has bipolar disorder?
You forge lies against God... and merely blaspheme. Just using the NT by itself and not quoting the OT... one can disprove the trinity and it's paradoxical nature.
God does not confuse or deceive, only men do. God gives CLEAR guidance with no error.
The copy pastes you made indeed did take verses of the quran completely out of context and fabricate meaning. That to me just annuls any validity of 'scholarship'.
I don't need priests to validate what the bible tells me. I have access to it. It's not like in the medieval ages where only those who knew latin and were in the high class were allowed to read the bible. I can read the bible and find out for myself what it says.
Every priest I went to had a different unique fantastical explanation of the trinity. You know what else? I had a philosophy teacher that was serving in the vatican but left the order. You know what he told me? The trinity is not true. Now will I use this against you as "hey this guy was in the vatican and he said this" no... but I will point to you what the bible says.
I posted this in another thread and yet again you avoided it. It just confirms in the absolute that the trinity is a lie:
I don't have to take verses out of context. I just need to point them out to you. I don't need to post so called scholars essays.
The verses are quite clear in this distinguishing that God and Jesus are not the same.
I can go on hours and hours why Jesus is not God philosphically even (Jesus ate, slept, imagine God that sleeps?), etc... but I don't have to.
A God that does not know? A God that dies? A God that commits suicide? A God that needs food and water? A God that eats himself as sacrifice? A God that needs human blood sacrifice? A God that is human? A God that changes his mind?
That is not God. God only changes the criterion for people, but He himself does not. All of the above are nothing but blasphemies by those that came after Jesus peace be upon him.
And Jesus.. was not God. Because what God does not KNOW?
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. Mark 13:32
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."Luke 22:42
A God that has bipolar disorder?
You forge lies against God... and merely blaspheme. Just using the NT by itself and not quoting the OT... one can disprove the trinity and it's paradoxical nature.
God does not confuse or deceive, only men do. God gives CLEAR guidance with no error.
Jesus' own words work against you.
So ahmed, this guy in the video starts by saying he doesn't personally believe God became man and that he's researched the topic in order to believe as such.
Then he asks whether viewers belief Christ was also his own messiah/annointed one, high priest, mediator, prophet and son and then reads scripture defending each of those positions. He then says he believes this is "truly ridiculous" and then concludes by asking viewers to provide via scripture (and only scripture) verses that defend that Christ was his own messiah/annointed one, high priest, mediator, prophet and son.
That said......huh??
Just like as we muslims say today in our proclamation of faith. There is no deity but God.
Saying it won't make it so :)
You know, I decided I won't believe in you. You are not real. You are just a figment of my imagination, probably a bot on a computer network. Kind of pointless to talk to a computer.
I just finishing reading the Koran from front to back and I really don't understand how Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God.
Now what boggles my mind is how a Muslim can believe Jesus had a biological mother but was NOT conceived by a biological father, in other words he was born of a virgin women, a clear dramatic distinction from the other prophets, yes all of them including Muhammad. This is more then valid proof that Jesus was in fact the son of God, how you would come up with any other conclusion is beyond me.
And don't bring up Adam and Eve cause they didn't have a mother or a father, big difference from having only a mother.
Very simply - the same way you believe that he is.Bro I am not talking to you. This is something you wouldn't understand as you are not a man of faith. So stay out of it please and thank you.
Proof? You talk as if things like "proof" and "logic" are applicable when they aren't. Just like with Christians, Muslims disregard logic and substitute faith instead, believing in the absence of (or worse still, contrary to) any rational, observable, quantifiable evidence that supports their belief.
Interesting. Can you tell us more?
Bro I am not talking to you. This is something you wouldn't understand as you are not a man of faith. So stay out of it please and thank you.
He knows what I am referring to, anyone who believes in God knows what I am referring to. From your perspective this is not logical I understand but anyone who has faith in God finds what I am saying logical, it will be interesting to see Ahmed thoughts on this and also MOS. Not interested in seeing your mocking and ridicule.
Oh... well, ok then.Sorry don't mean to sound like a jerk but put it this way...
I just finishing reading the Koran from front to back and I really don't understand how Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God.
All major prophets according to Islam are equal and Mohammad is the last prophet, I can accept all this reasoning, I don't agree with it but I can understand where you guys are coming from
Now what boggles my mind is how a Muslim can believe Jesus had a biological mother but was NOT conceived by a biological father, in other words he was born of a virgin women, a clear dramatic distinction from the other prophets, yes all of them including Muhammad. This is more then valid proof that Jesus was in fact the son of God, how you would come up with any other conclusion is beyond me.
And don't bring up Adam and Eve cause they didn't have a mother or a father, big difference from having only a mother.
Bro I am not talking to you. This is something you wouldn't understand as you are not a man of faith. So stay out of it please and thank you.
He knows what I am referring to, anyone who believes in God knows what I am referring to. From your perspective this is not logical I understand but anyone who has faith in God finds what I am saying logical, it will be interesting to see Ahmed thoughts on this and also MOS. Not interested in seeing your mocking and ridicule.
To shorten your efforts.
We reject the false and invented belief of the trinity. Paul is nothing but a fraud and a false prophet. The one that Jesus warned of, while Christians follow him and call Muhammad (pbuh) as a false prophet. If we compare the two clearly Muhammad (pbuh) stuck to what all the prophets said and did while Paul radically introduces things that Jesus neither said or did in his own writings. He also destroys his own credibility in so many of his writings. He was just rambling and forging beliefs. He condemned those as cursed amongst other things that did not follow 'his gospel'.
Jesus thought no such things. I already tried debating man of steel and he just goes silent and changes subject when the fabricated quotes such as the 'three in heaven' are mentioned. These are not 'minuta' differences or opinions... they are monolithic forgeries that dictate doctrine and belief. The bible as we know it is known as not God's word. That's it.
Last but not least I tired debating man of steel on various verses which prove Jesus is not God but again he side tracks or ignores or changes topic when they are brought forth. Jesus thought the same as all the prophets.
Hear oh Israel your Lord God is one. He didn't say hear oh israel your Lord is a triune God.
We believed in the revelations, the books, the angels, the prophets and messengers.
"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allaah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." [Quran 2:79]
Hey bro, I'm impressed you read the whole Quran. I haven't read the whole Bible yet but did order a copy through Amazon which is currently on its way.They were created therefor they didn't require parents. Jesus was not created, but conceived through devine intervention. His birth came through a virgin, so one can only conclude that the spirit of God was working in Mary's womb, from a biological point of view there would of had to be a process of development in her womb that would require a male counterpart for fertilization, you need both male and female to carry out the task. So if the Holy Spirit fulfilled the role of the male for the fertilization process then the Spirit of God is in fact the father of Jesus.
Regarding your question (I don't recall the exact verse) but the Quran explains that since God is All-Powerful He can simply make any being just by saying "Be!" (not by literally saying "Be" necessarily but the meaning is He can create anything/anyone He wants with or without parents or with just a single parent, since he can create anything in any fashion).
I'm not really following the logic on why Adam/Eve is not a fair analogy. Yes, they had no parents while Jesus had one mother, but why would having one human parent imply that there must be a a second divine parent whereas having no human parents imply no divine parent?
They were created therefor they didn't require parents. Jesus was not created, but conceived through devine intervention. His birth came through a virgin, so one can only conclude that the spirit of God was working in Mary's womb, from a biological point of view there would of had to be a process of development in her womb that would require a male counterpart for fertilization, you need both male and female to carry out the task. So if the Holy Spirit fulfilled the role of the male for the fertilization process then the Spirit of God is in fact the father of Jesus.
Now if you claim that Mary did not go through these steps in order to conceive then what activities where going on in her womb for 9 months? Nothing at all? was it just emptiness in her womb and all of a sudden a baby came out? Of course not, the 9 months of pregnancy had to be genuine otherwise why bother starting the miracle at the beginning of the pregnancy?
Now one more thing. Since Adam, according to the Koran/Quran (not sure which one you prefer) there has been only one human being that has been born of a human mother only. Out of billions and billions of people Jesus is the only one and when I started reading the Koran I was paying close attention if the Koran stated a reason for the Virgin birth of Jesus and I did not come across any, not even one reason, in the Koran the word used by the angel when he was talking to Mary was "decreed" I found this extremely fascinating because "decreed" means the highest order from God himself.
So you have a virgin birth that makes this man different then any other human to have ever walked the face of the earth according to the Koran and it was done this way through an order of the highest degree by God ("decreed") according to the Koran and yet the Koran can NOT give a reason for such a fascinating distinction, not even one.
Here is the reason; the scriptures says that man that come from Adam is Sinful, and sense Jesus is the Sun of God and cannot sin, he can not be born of a man that comes from Adam, very logical. He is therefor conceived by the Holy Spirit.
I'm curious as to why it is not important for a Muslim to know why Jesus was chosen for such an extraordinary and fascinating occurrence. After reading the Koran I felt like Muslims disregard this as no big deal and don't acknowledge the significance of it.
We don't believe God has sexual function especially sexual function that's compatible with humans, such as having His own sperm that would fertilize Mary's egg. God can "make" sperm that would fertilize without it being His own sperm, because God is above having human characteristics like dna. That's why we believe God "made" Jesus but did not "beget" him.Point noted, but when you put it altogether that the sperm used has no gyneology and is powered by the Holy Spirit, also you did not address why God would include a chosen individual out of all humanity to be honored and distinguished above all else, Mohammad included. Why?
It's not only Muslims who do not believe in the Trinity while still believing in the virgin-birth, there have been many Unitarian Christian movements, many were violently silenced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Biddle_(Unitarian)
There's also lots of conceptual difficulties with the idea of the Trinity. For example if God begot Jesus, that would by definition mean that Jesus did not previously exist, which woudl mean that they (God/"Father" and Jesus) are not the same entity. Also, how can the created be equal to the creator, etc.
Point noted, but when you put it altogether that the sperm used has no gyneology and is powered by the Holy Spirit, also you did not address why God would include a chosen individual out of all humanity to be honored and distinguished above all else, Mohammad included. Why?
Oh I am not arguing the Trinity, although i believe in the Trinity, but no one is going to believe in the Trinity without believing Jesus was the son of God first.
Letting the "debate" happen without interfering and just reading what the "theologians" have to say has paid off in spades... ::)
So parts of God are here some there? And then later God even commits suicide and is dead.
So parts of God are here some there? And then later God even commits suicide and is dead.Putting restrictions on God sounds way more ludicrous
Do you see how ludicrous that sounds? Aside from the fact it contradicts the OT entirely.. and.. even if you use the NT it proves that God is God and Jesus is Jesus. Separate. Not the same.
I understand what you're saying - there's definite uniqueness about Jesus as a prophet in Islam in that he was born from Virgin Mary and he is to return to fight the AntiChrist, however uniqueness does not elevate to divine / non-human status. For example, Adam was a unique prophet in that he had no parents, Muhammad was unique in that he was the last prophet. Why did God choose these certain uniquenesses we don't know.Simple cause Adam was the first, as far as Muhammad is concerned I don't believe he was the last prophet but even if he was you can't compare Jesus t o Adam or Muhammad his "uniqueness" is on an entirely different level here.
The reason I brought up the Trinity and Unitarian Christians was just to show that it's not only Muslims who believe that having no biological father implies Jesus must have been the literal son of God.
Are you saying that if Allah wanted to do all those things he couldn't? Is he not omnipotent?Wow I actually agree with your point for once 8)
I'll save you the trouble.
"God was in the womb for 9 months?" ???
Of course not... it's blasphemy according to not just Muslims but the OT/torah. Jesus never thought such things, against to reiterate, it is later paul and later generations.
Indeed those who rejected the trinity were violently suppressed and trinitarianism prevailed.
Man of steel in another thread said God is male.
I tried to explain to him God created male and female gender. God is not his creation and is unique. Sex, male, female these are things that God created. Procreation, which is the sexual act of begetting is something God created for many and most of his creatures. Humans and animals. We continue to reproduce via this mechanism.
God is not a man, God is not male, God does not have sex as it is an act which He created for His creatures. Some creatures reproduce asexually for example. All these things are created by God but are not God
Simple cause Adam was the first, as far as Muhammad is concerned I don't believe he was the last prophet but even if he was you can't compare Jesus t o Adam or Muhammad his "uniqueness" is on an entirely different level here.
This one's simple....you deny Jesus Christ as God and you deny the trinity. Of course you deny God being considerd a male. Islam must attempt to refute anything that corroborates the trinity and/or Jesus as God.
But it's not just Islam that denies the trinity, even many Christians do: http://americanunitarian.org/explanation.htm
Yes, there exist sects of nominal Christian churches and other denominations that also cherry pick scripture to form their own desired end.
Why do you call it "cherry-picking" and not interpretation? One can argue that using the vague evidences of the Trinity within the Bible is also "cherry picking scripture to form their desired end."
The majority of Christians today believe in the Trinity because that's what their parents, churches, etc. taught them, without actually having read the bible, knowing the history of when the Trinity concept was founded and that other interpretations exist.
Perfectly fine, swap "interpret" for "cherry picking".
Actually Christians today believe in the Trinity because they're indwelt with the Holy Spirit and a have a real, tangible relationship becaues of it. A Muslim is not different than an Atheist in this regard.
Practically every follower of every religion believes they have a tangible relationship with God.
You think they are non-followers of Christ, and they think you are. Boils down to different interpretations of the Bible and of Jesus' quotes.
However, if the Bible stated in black-and-white the Trinity, Jesus being God, etc. there would not be such contrasting interpretations.
This one's simple....you deny Jesus Christ as God and you deny the trinity. Of course you deny God being considerd a male. Islam must attempt to refute anything that corroborates the trinity and/or Jesus as God.
If God is male according to you. Are you saying God has a ... I don't want to say it, what we have between our legs?
If God is male according to you. Are you saying God has a ... I don't want to say it, what we have between our legs?Your thoughts are way to basic and you seem to be putting God in a box, thinking he is restricted and saying God can't be, God has to be, let me tell you something. No man knows God, he is too awesome for you to comprehend and he can do everything you think he can't or shouldn't and at the end it will all be for the Good.
Before saying that God is male you must be able to define "male."
Look it up in dictionaries and the definition revolves around sexual function and organs, so Ahmed's question is fair.
We believe it's actually restricting to God to assign Him a gender, since having a gender in itself is a trait of mammals, beings He created who are below Him. If you truly elevate God to the highest, don't you believe He is above having gender characteristics?
I think that's fair to define the term "male", but from a Christian perspective Christ is the "Son of God" who referred to himself with the distinguished title of "Son of Man" and we also refer to "God the Father". That said, the Holy Spirit and God the Father may not be considered males, but the terms "Father", "Son" and "Man" all point to a male gender. Christ didn't produce offspring, but he lived as a man and died as a man so in that sense he was a male.
Before saying that God is male you must be able to define "male."Wrong big time, there are different definitions of the word male. Some don't have anything to do sexual functions and only one of it's definitions does. So according to you guys a male plant has to have a penis? lol, AH No, of course not.
Look it up in dictionaries and the definition revolves around sexual function and organs, so Ahmed's question is fair.
We believe it's actually restricting to God to assign Him a gender, since having a gender in itself is a trait of mammals, beings He created who are below Him. If you truly elevate God to the highest, don't you believe He is above having gender characteristics?
Wrong big time, there are different definitions of the word male. Some don't have anything to do sexual functions and only one of it's definitions does. So according to you guys a male plant has to have a penis? lol, AH No, of course not.
Now, correct me if I am wrong but don't Muslims believe in the Torah?... Well the Torah says God is a male.
male /māl/
Adjective:
Of or denoting the sex that produces small, typically motile gametes, esp. spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or...: "male children"
Noun:
A male person, plant, or animal.
Synonyms:
adjective. masculine - manly - virile - manlike
noun. man - he - mate - bull
male [meyl]
noun
1. a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.
2. an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete.
3. Botany . a staminate plant.
adjective
4. of, pertaining to, or being a male animal or plant.
5. pertaining to or characteristic of a male person; masculine: a male voice.
6. composed of males: a male choir.
7. Botany .
a. designating or pertaining to a plant or its reproductive structure producing or containing microspores.
b. (of seed plants) staminate.
8. Machinery . made to fit into a corresponding open or recessed part: a male plug. Compare female ( def. 8 ) .
be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.
1.(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2.to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.
procreate pro·cre·ate (prō'krē-āt')
v. pro·cre·at·ed , pro·cre·at·ing , pro·cre·ates
To beget and conceive offspring; to reproduce.
Male plants spread their 'sperm' onto female plants. So whether its a penis or not. You are uttering that God is a human/man and male. Guess what all human male men have?Don`t be so naive bro, I am not uttering anything like you say. You are putting words in my mouth. I said God is male, the Hebrew term for male in the old testament is not a man with a penis, it is someone with masculine features and the O T states angels are male and they don`t have sexual organs.
Mary is a human female woman with a vagina.
Muslims believe in the revelations that were given to Moses, but we know that the torah in it's entirity and the OT in it's entirety is not what was revealed to moses but includes other writings.
We believe in the torah (what was revealed to moses), the zabur (what was david's), jesus's gospel (injeel) and quran (as revealed through muhammad).
The bible consists of OT and NT... books... the OT apocrypha includes more books that are not included in the bible.. the NT apocrypha includes more books that are not included in the bible.
Lol well the words "male" and "female" are used for plants to differentiate between two types. Since God is one, by definition there are no "two types/genders" that need to exist.Bro the argument is over ;) read above
What then do you consider to be the definition of male that the Bible uses?
lol if you read all those which i have too. You would be aware that in semetic languages there are two traits.I don`t remember such verse, I could be wrong but please show me the verse.
1.
a. We is used when God speaks of himself not because its multiple gods but as a royal we, when a king says "we have decided" when in reality the king has decided.
b. In hebrew God is mentioned by Ellohim. Notice Elloh in there. Elloh means god, Ellohim literally means gods, but it is the plural of respect yet again.
Even Muhammad when he is mentioned in the torah is mentioned as Muhamadim with a plural at the end.
2.
He is used whenever speaking of God as you are limited to what? He, she, it, we.
-If you say It, it's disrespectful and it is used merely for objects or strange things, no respect in it.
-We I already explained
-She, which means God could be impregnated
-He, is the only option left in our languages.
Jews never genderized God as male literally like you trinitarian christians do
Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_God
Why? Because there is nothing comparable to God in the creation. Everything within the creation is created by God while God is the creator and unique.
Jews like Muslims, and 'unitarian christians' hold the same view that nothing in creation resembles God and that we should not worship the creation but the Creator.
The only time this again became a 'debate' was amongst feminists who like yourself lacking understanding started arguing about God's 'male gender', and there are feminist books that change the bible to say "She". Pretty retarded.
Do please check out the verses in the bible where God is called a mother. Yet still Jews never literally attributed gender to God. So you are the only ones bringing about this, amongst polytheists.
Unitarian christians are a step ahead of you, abandon these fabricated later beliefs and return to the original message of Jesus.
Before saying that God is male you must be able to define "male."
Look it up in dictionaries and the definition revolves around sexual function and organs, so Ahmed's question is fair.
We believe it's actually restricting to God to assign Him a gender, since having a gender in itself is a trait of mammals, beings He created who are below Him. If you truly elevate God to the highest, don't you believe He is above having gender characteristics?
But you believe that he's not above being able to split himself in three? What else do you believe he's not above?
God is one and absolute. If he 'becomes' something else he seizes to be God. Therefore its an invalid question.
Why? cause you said so, lol. God can be anything he wants to be and he still doesn`t stop being God, he can be a human if he wants and walk here on earth if he wants. You`re logic is outrageous, according to you, no matter what God can`t come down to earth as a human, it`s impossible, there is no way he can do that, WOW, you got some issues bro, just cause you say he can`t does not mean he can`t.
You believe in the book of Exodus right? OK, quote from the Exodus...`
`God is a man of war``
Yes, God can do anything, but we believe God does not do inappropriate/humanly/imperfect things (like bare a child, live in a womb, talk to himself, etc.), He does Godly things instead 8)Thanks bigbobs, I can live with that. At least you admit God can do anything, Ahmed on the other hand says it`s impossible.
Bigbobs doesn't say that God can become a human being. Bigbobs also does not believe that God changes God is. Eternal, absolute.Yes he did, he said it was possible, but he said he wouldn`t
God becoming something else becomes something else. Is no longer God. Unless you're a pantheist or polytheist, which you and man of steel sound alot like, not a monotheist.
God is absolute and eternal. Changing means not being God.
You missed those verses about God being unchanging in the bible.
Do you realize how ridiculous it is that, God commands to not worship anything in creation in the ten commandments, then changes his opinion becomes a man and asks you to worship a man.
Yes he did, he said it was possible, but he said he wouldn`t
You make no sense and you just lied against God. God said he wouldn't but could? What?What are you talking about bro? You said.... Bigbobs doesn't say that God can become a human
Here lets take another look at what the bible also says:
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' Psalm 82:6
Another proof that the bible cannot be fully trusted as it is not the word of God. That's why people differ. People who recognize the message of all the prophets which was the oneness of God.. and those that blaspheme against God contradicting the monotheistic belief with pantheism and polytheism.
This verse just keeps reverberating in my head every time I hear you speak and bring something new:
There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: it is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! Quran 3.78 ( Surat Al-Imran , verse 78)
I made a general comment that God can do anything, but to take that general comment and question whether God can make himself imperfect (like a human) comes back to the question "Can God create a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?"Now we are arguing over non-sense. we are way off topic here
The "God can do anything" argument will say "yes" to that question, but then the "God can do anything" argument can not explain why he can't lift it.
In other words using the "God can do anything" argument does not stand when applying it towards imperfections, such as "Can God become human?"
Can God become a tree?yes
Now we are arguing over non-sense. we are way off topic here
yes
yes
And would that mean He would now be a tree and no longer God? By definition you can't be two things at once.Yes you can be 2 things at once, there you guys go again making up your own rules.
Yes you can be 2 things at once, there you guys go again making up your own rules.
Like I posted earlier in this thread or in another one (can't recall now), have you considered that the "son of God" title is not meant to be taken literally?
Keep in mind there are countless quotes in the Bible where other individuals as well as whole populations are referred to as "son of God" or "sons of God."
A tree by definition is not God, therefore if God became a tree He is no longer God. Again, its just a play of words, can we move on to something closer to topic, like you suggested earlier? How about my question below:How about why God chose Jesus above all others on the planet sense the beginning of time to have a virgin birth ;)
A tree by definition is not God, therefore if God became a tree He is no longer God. Again, its just a play of words, can we move on to something closer to topic, like you suggested earlier? How about my question below:In job it talks about ``the sons of God`` and in Genesis 6 also, referring to the angels. then there is children of God as a nation but you have to give me a quote where it refers to an individual human being as `the son of God`` cause I don`t know any of these verses you are referring to.
In job it talks about ``the sons of God`` and in Genesis 6 also, referring to the angels. then there is children of God as a nation but you have to give me a quote where it refers to an individual human being as `the son of God`` cause I don`t know any of these verses you are referring to.
[God is being quoted as speaking to Nathan, telling him to say the following things to David.]
11: When your days are fulfilled to go to be with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom.
12: He shall build a house for me, and I will establish his throne for ever.
13: I will be his Father, and he shall be my Son; I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you,
14: but I will confirm him in my house and in my kingdom for ever and his throne shall be established for ever.'"
15: In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.
Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."In both passages he is referring to the nation of Israel, sorry try again ;)
Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."
As I said to man of steel, do you believe God is bipolar? It's disturbing.
Jesus indeed was a Muslim as he prayed to God as all the prophets prayed and as we today do... and he submitted his will to God which is the literal definition of a Muslim:
Matthew 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he (Jesus) fell upon his face, praying and saying 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.' "
Matthew 26:42 "Again, for the second time, he (Jesus) went off and prayed, saying: 'My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, let your will take place.'"
Jacob = Israel. Jacob was renamed to Israel. Israel's children such as Joseph and Benjamin and their offsprings which are the 12 tribes. Jews come from Jacob. None the less you are still deluding yourself. It's right in front of you hitting you head first, even David being called son of God, even 'begotten' (which again literally would mean sexually concieved).What are you in grade 2, who doesn`t know this bro. As far as the verse in Mathew we are not debating if Jesus is God, I won`t bother if you don`t even believe Jesus is the son of God why would I debate that Jesus is God?
Cute how you ignored the verses about Jesus praying to God, saying not his (jesus') will but God's will.
Matthew 26:44 "So leaving them, he (Jesus) went off and prayed for the third time, saying once more the same word."
And again you ignored my continuing question in response to your yes. If you say God can become a tree, what happens to God if I chop up the tree?
Again ignoring the tree question. Why? Pride? I will keep asking until you answer it.Why should I listen to him, his teachings come from a false prophet ;)
No that man embraced Islam, he studied the actual original texts, has a doctorate in divinity, was a reverent, maybe you should listen to him a little. He certainly did not preach pantheism like you do. You are the one interpreting what you want how you want. I have been giving you literal verses which debunk your pantheism and polytheism, and show the bible as erronous and contradictory hence the confussion that leads some people to worship and believe as pantheists and polytheists and not as monotheists. If you do away with the pantheism and polytheism, you would be closer to the truth.
Jesus came to 'save you' by teaching you about God as all the prophets of God are meant to. Worshipping and obeying God will save you, not wishful thinking.
Historically, it identified one who had been licensed by a university to teach Christian theology or related religious subjects.
"There is some irony in the fact that the supposedly best, brightest, and most idealistic of ministers-to-be are selected for the very best of seminary education, e.g. that offered at that time at the Harvard Divinity School. The irony is that, given such an education, the seminarian is exposed to ... much ... historical truth. .. As such, it is no real wonder that almost a majority of such seminary graduates leave seminary, not to “fill pulpits”, where they would be asked to preach that which they know is not true, but to enter the various counseling professions. Such was also the case for me, as I went on to earn a master’s and doctorate in clinical psychology."
Okay so I guess you are not willing to answer honestly and continue to delude yourself that God is a human being despite all the many verses I posted that nothing and no one is like God. Jesus praying to God. Jesus saying not his own will but that of God's will. And so on and so forth.
You seem to zig zag with your beliefs when it is convenient to you. Here you realize it is not literal, and all other examples, but then you insist on worshipping Jesus a human being sent by God, created by God, chosen by God.
He was only a prophet sent by God.
I recommend you check out the interview of Dr. Jerald Dirks who was a reverent, who has a doctorate in divinity from Harward, who went to seminaries studying THE actual original texts, history of the texts, etc... and who ultimately has alot more knowledge than you or I about scripture. He embraced Islam and denounced the trinity. He goes into great depth talking about the pauline christianity which ultimately over took and the original christianity such as the church in jerusalem the actual disciples of Jesus.
It's two parts, it's under people who became muslim the last video I watched/posted today.
Lastly you ignore the tree question which you answered as yes God can become a true. What happens to God if you chop up the tree? This is your words. Instead of saying it's 'grade 2', be honest and answer yourself. You know the truth but your pride and arrogance are holding you back.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Good job MOS, that seals the deal for Ahmed 8)
I started reading and was quite dissapointed. I don't see anywhere Jesus saying "worship me I am God"unfortunatly Muhammad was not one of those prophets
Jesus being chosen by God does not make him God. He like other prophets was chosen by God.
Jesus doing miracles does not make him God. Just as Moses did not become God because he had 'powers'.
Jesus IS the only way to God. Why? Because all the prophets of God are the only way to God at their given time.
It's weird how in these things you see Jesus being God. Baffling.
Jesus commanding jinn, exorcism? Muslims do it too.
This itself is such blasphemy. It's like saying even if there are gods out there. This is not the word of God, or word of Jesus. Obviously writings of Paul
I feel sorry for you. How you delude yourself.I feel sorry for you for not accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ :)
I feel sorry for you for not accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ :)
unfortunatly Muhammad was not one of those prophets
In case you didn't know we are 2 billion people today following Muhammad (pbuh) and growing.That means nothing, there are 2 billion atheist as well
Unlike the bible, the quran is the word of God. Unlike the bible, the quran does not contradict itself like the bible does over and over again. Hence your confusion.
Unlike Jesus (peace be upon him), we have details about Muhammad (pbuh) witnessed by tens of thousands. Your only witness is a fraud Paul who was in fact an oppressor and bounty hunter of the real followers of Jesus.
The teachings and beliefs of the original followers of Jesus have been lost, what we have are later beliefs by Paul which overtook the original christianity as in the church of jerusalem.
In case you didn't know we are 2 billion people today following Muhammad (pbuh) and growing.
Unlike the bible, the quran is the word of God. Unlike the bible, the quran does not contradict itself like the bible does over and over again. Hence your confusion.
Unlike Jesus (peace be upon him), we have details about Muhammad (pbuh) witnessed by tens of thousands. Your only witness is a fraud Paul who was in fact an oppressor and bounty hunter of the real followers of Jesus.
The teachings and beliefs of the original followers of Jesus have been lost, what we have are later beliefs by Paul which overtook the original christianity as in the church of jerusalem.
If a deacon, a reverent, a doctor of divinity, a seminary who studied and held the original texts, studied where, how, when, by whom these were written, added, manipulated, even the reasons why they were changed, can become a Muslim. So can you.
He like many learned christian theologians has a hard time living with himself inside himself preaching lies but knowing they are lies.
I may not have had a doctorate in divinity but i had the same problem studying and knowing the bible and its history, and the history of christianity
In job it talks about ``the sons of God`` and in Genesis 6 also, referring to the angels. then there is children of God as a nation but you have to give me a quote where it refers to an individual human being as `the son of God`` cause I don`t know any of these verses you are referring to.
I submit my will to God almighty. I believe in all the prophets of God from Adam until Muhammad (peace be upon them all) and in between there of course Jesus (peace be upon him)
This 2nd god you refer to is meaningless to mention. Holy ghost? Holy spirit? Apparently according to your friend 'God', was in the womb of a woman for 9 months. He called this the holy spirit. Now that ghost is dwelling in you and you are FEEELING THE POWER. Your friend also believes that God can become a tree so I guess that would make the 'holy spirit' dwell in that piece of wood? Because "God can do anything"
You two utter nothing but your own conjectures and non-sense. Been there done that as a Christian. So Jesus was just trying to 'show us' how to be good believers by submitting himself to God while he jesus in fact is God. You make up things as you go.
No thanks.
You invite me to worship 3 entities and do away with God's law. What do we get from this? People who do whatever they like and are 'saved' and automatically get a free pass to heaven. Laughable at best, yet very very very disturbing and sad.
'Folowers of Jesus' who club Saturday night and attend mass Sunday morning?
I invite you to worship God alone. God is one. Jesus worshipped God and was created by God.
1) For starters if angels and a nation can be called son of God (I'm assuming you agree that this is metamorphical) then why is the "son of God" title for Jesus literal? Sounds like selective translation.Your first point is valid question, very good bigbob and I will address it later when I have time. As for Solomon, again he was a king of the nation of God's chosen people same as Dave and Adam was the first human so these are bad examples, you've yet to show me a man, a commoner, not a king of a nation that God refers to as his children.
2) Secondly, regarding individual humans getting the same title here are two (Solomon and Adam):
1 Chronicles 22:10 "He (Solomon) shall build a house for my name. He shall be my son, and I will be his father, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever."
Luke 3:38 "Cainan was the son of Enos. Enos was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God."
ahmed, you can dispense with the "I'm a former Christian" notion.....the veils been lifted off my eyes - I know the difference. This post alone speaks volumes. That said, I'm happy to do my very best to share my faith with you and will do so willingly and happily.
Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus
Paul was never trained by the disciples, the men who walked, talked, and broke bread with our Saviour. He received his knowledge from "revelations."
Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it, thus the disciples knew he was lying.
Paul declared he was teaching another Gospel of which he himself was the Father
Paul issued his own commandments and laws for people to adhere to
Paul taught the exact Opposite of what Jesus and His real disciples did.
Paul worked to destroy and undo everything Jesus and His disciples did and were doing.
Paul was never repentant for being the greatest persecutor of Christians at that time! He boasted about it! Over and Over!
Paul said God's law was a Curse. Jesus said it was a blessing. Who's lying?
Paul condemned Jesus and His disciples for false teachings, he condemned Jesus Himself for having long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14, something approved in Numbers 6:5 and Judges 13:5.
Jesus Said: Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), circumcise male children (Luke 2:21), Paul Said: Circumcision is not necessary (Romans 2:26) that is going against what the Christ said in Luke 2:21.
In 1 Corinthians 15:1 Paul says that he was not giving them anything but what “he preached.” He explained this even further in the second book (or letter) to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:17). It reads - “That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.” He's telling you plain and simple he was speaking of himself and not from or of the Lord!"
Paul cursed Jesus and His disciples
Paul Supported and demanded Adherence to Iniquity (Discrimination), Jesus said to not let it be found among us! Who's lying?
Your first point is valid question, very good bigbob and I will address it later when I have time. As for Solomon, again he was a king of the nation of God's chosen people same as Dave and Adam was the first human so these are bad examples, you've yet to show me a man, a commoner, not a king of a nation that God refers to as his children.
Yes any biblical scholar knows it is not literal. I know that too, and knew that from the time i went to sunday school.. and from the religious classes I had since elementary to high school. So you believe God had sex with mary and say jesus is the literal son.
Didn't you see the phrase about David being the begotten son of God? Even dubbed 'even the first born'
So any time now? Please answer the tree question.
FYI a 12 year old will understand that a human being that can poop, get hungry and can die is not God. Yet you can't understand it? What's that make you.
Your first point is valid question, very good bigbob and I will address it later when I have time. As for Solomon, again he was a king of the nation of God's chosen people same as Dave and Adam was the first human so these are bad examples, you've yet to show me a man, a commoner, not a king of a nation that God refers to as his children.
This quote-fest is so fucking funny. But what's funnier is that neither of the teams realize they're doing the exact same thing while calling the other teams' gameplay bogus.
Leaving this to the "theologians" was a good idea. So many lolz! ;D
So you think God became a bush? What if Moses put out the fire with water?
God didn't become a bush or a fire, he spoke to Moses through this apparition.
Don't you see you are trying to conjure up your own justification to your pantheistic and polytheistic beliefs?
It makes you no different than Hindus who are at least honest about their pantheism and polytheism.
Also the narrative of the tree eating, it seems to have clearly had human hands adding more entertainment to it. God inquiring about what adam did then adam denying it then the woman being questioned what have you done. Do you honestly think God would not know when they ate it? It makes no sense. Sorry. And then to top it off the woman gets 'cursed' as christians always believed.
That was the one thing for me when I was reading that as a kid. I never imagined God as a human there walking. However even back then I found it strange that the woman be 'cursed' and adam just kind of flying by.
Later of course the whole premise of 'original sin' turned me off even more. Even though it was a christian school, we had a sociology class. In it we studied a few different ways of viewing things. We observed the idea of being born pure vs being porn sinful/evil. The teacher 'encouraged' me to believe in the later, while I wrote an essay that babies are born pure and innoscent.
This quote-fest is so fucking funny. But what's funnier is that neither of the teams realize they're doing the exact same thing while calling the other teams' gameplay bogus.
Leaving this to the "theologians" was a good idea. So many lolz! ;D
Finally we can agree on something. So therefore your argument is? That God became Jesus?
Or that maybe God commanded Jesus and Jesus was not God.
Like the bush, God commanded the bush to be on fire, God did not become a bush.
Onetimehard said God can become a tree. I asked him what if I chopped up the tree or set it on fire? God seizes to exist? Makes no sense. It's pantheism not monotheism.
Oh....good stuff.
No your friend was arguing that "God can do anything" you were missing in action.Yeah, I did that part of the discussion. Like I've mentioned before I don't read all the post all the time.
He was trying to justify God becoming literally a human because "god can do anything"
So I said can God become a tree? He said yes.
So literally changing into a tree? I asked what happens if i chop up the tree?
According to the bible and quran, God is eternal and unchanging, and in fact there is a verse in the bible that says God is not a man that he changes or lies or not keep his promises. There are many verses regarding God being eternal and unchanging.
There are plenty of verses which say there is NOTHING comparable to God.
If NOTHING is comparable to God, how can objects in the creation be God?
If God becomes a man, he seizes to be God. If God becomes a 'tree' he seizes to be God.
God never changes or becomes any of these things. He is eternal and unchanging.
So you are proud of being pantheists like hindus? That God can become objects (idols), humans, animals, or can 'dwell inside you' or dwell in objects or creatures?
This quote-fest is so fucking funny. But what's funnier is that neither of the teams realize they're doing the exact same thing while calling the other teams' gameplay bogus.I have to agree with you, we are going in circles here.
Leaving this to the "theologians" was a good idea. So many lolz! ;D
Onetimehard said God can become a tree. I asked him what if I chopped up the tree or set it on fire? God seizes to exist? Makes no sense. It's pantheism not monotheism.To answer your question since your so persistent and it's getting annoying. Go back and check my post I said God would be a tree and he would be God at the same time, he can be in 1000 places at once, he can be a 1000 different entities at once, your assumption is so stupid, you think he changes into a tree but stops being God, sorry but your God is pathetic. My God on the other hand is Omnipotent, a concept you don't understand even avxo has to correct you on this term. So you chopped up the tree, so what God is still God
To answer your question since your so persistent and it's getting annoying. Go back and check my post I said God would be a tree and he would be God at the same time, he can be in 1000 places at once, he can be a 1000 different entities at once, your assumption is so stupid, you think he changes into a tree but stops being God, sorry but your God is pathetic. My God on the other hand is Omnipotent, a concept you don't understand even avxo has to correct you on this term. So you chopped up the tree, so what God is still God
That's called pantheism. No prophet of God was a pantheist. Even Paul didn't really go this far in blasphemy as you are. It's truly incredible. Indeed you are closer to Hindus in your beliefs than you are to Jesus (peace be upon him).Your fundamental ways have clouded your perception, it was a joke, did you not see the grin I put there, a joke, hello.
And fyi God was not a burning bush. God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. God did not 'become' a burning bush.
Does an announcer become a speaker when he speaks through a microphone? Of course not. He just uses the microphone and speaker as a means to transfer a message.
Thanks :)
I disagree that Solomon, David and Adam are bad examples because remember, I'm not saying that these three individuals are divine, my point of raising these three examples are to show that when the bible uses the term "son of God" its not meant to be taken literally. Or if you disagree, then how do you differentiate between when "son of God" is literal vs. metaphorical? It seems like selective translation to simply suggest that in Jesus' case it's literal and when used in Solomon, David and Adam's cases + all others it's only metaphorical (I think it's metaphorical in all cases, as do Unitarian Christians).
But again the question - how can you conclude when "son of God" is literal vs. metaphorical and why?
Go debate your end which awaits you by yourself. God awaits you as He awaits us all.
From a theological point of view the Bible states that Jesus was created from God via the Holy Spirit whereas man was created 'in God's image' from the ground of the earth. Jesus would therefore have been created from one and the same 'matter' as God and would form a part of that Entity.
The Bible also says that only Jesus will return, there will be no more prophets but there will be many false prophets along the way...
This is all of course from a totally theological perspective.
Thanks for not anwering my question. Again, how do you know when it's literal or metaphorical?
You say the bible said that Jesus was created "from" God which makes apparently makes him distinct from Adam, Solomon and David - without showing me a reference but I'll give benefit of the doubt so even entertaining that gets back to the original question - is the "from God" literal or metamorphical?
And also, how do you know the "son of God" is NOT literal in David, Solomon or Adam's case?
Because the New Testament states that Jesus will be seated at God's right hand at Judgement Day.
Who else but God's Son would sit at his right hand, and why not Adam, Solomon etc if they are also his 'son'?
The New Testament also states that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and as I mentioned Adam was created from dust of the earth and not of the same 'matter' as God.
Because the New Testament states that Jesus will be seated at God's right hand at Judgement Day.Wow Griffith laying the smack down, from a theological perspective of course, but pretty simple mathematics, 1+1 = 2 but for Islam it =3 :D
Who else but God's Son would sit at his right hand, and why not Adam, Solomon etc if they are also his 'son'?
The New Testament also states that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and as I mentioned Adam was created from dust of the earth and not of the same 'matter' as God.
Seated on the right hand of the Father, conceived of the Holy ghost, 600 pophetic verses of the Messiah, yes Jesus is the Messiah even the Koran calls Jesus the Messiah and only Jesus. His second coming as well. This is overwhelming that Jesus is the son of God.
Of the 5 items you mentioned, only the one of "conceived by the Holy ghost" can be considered as evidence IF it was stated by Jesus himself, BUT it was not. Is it too much to ask for Jesus (who is quoted all over the Bible) to have just once said that he is God rather than others saying he is God? In contrast Jesus called himself son of man 88 times.lol, bro it's stated by Gabriel, the arch Angel of God, how much more credibility do you want, so now Angles lie? ???
The other 4 items you mentioned show significance/uniqueness of Jesus but uniqueness does not imply divinity. They do support that he was a great prophet, hence the great respect Muslims give him.
??? ??? ??? >:( :D(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/principle_of_explosion.png) (http://xkcd.com/704/)
Wow Griffith laying the smack down, from a theological perspective of course, but pretty simple mathematics, 1+1 = 2 but for Islam it =3 :D
Perfect answer for bigbobs, he will be seated at the right hand of the father and he was born from a virgin, those 2 points is obvious enough for anyone to believe that when they say son of God it's a literal term.
Actually islam 1=1Where have you been all day, we missed you 8)
According to you 1=1+1+1
lol
Oh you read the Qur'an? Mind posting those verses about Jesus that are 'mocking' Jesus?
Qur'an 5:116-120 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
"Never said I to them anything except what Thou didst command me to say to wit 'Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.
"If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them Thou art the Exalted the Wise.
Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens with rivers flowing beneath their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them and they with Allah: that is the great Salvation (the fulfillment of all desires).
To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and it is He who hath power over all things.
Muhammad (pbuh) was only conveying the message. God is the one talking to us and commanding Muhammad (pbuh).
God put the words into Muhmmad's mouth, it was not his own words. He does not speak of his own or of himself.
??? ??? ??? >:( :D
So Allah speaks in the third person?
Wow Griffith laying the smack down, from a theological perspective of course, but pretty simple mathematics, 1+1 = 2 but for Islam it =3 :D
Perfect answer for bigbobs, he will be seated at the right hand of the father and he was born from a virgin, those 2 points is obvious enough for anyone to believe that when they say son of God it's a literal term.
Through the Qur'an God spoke commanding Muhammad to utter words. God spoke of past events & people, then present events & people and future events & things to come. In this verse it is refering to what will happen on the day of judgment when God will ask Jesus if he told people "Worship me Jesus" or "I Jesus am God" to which Jesus will respond as quoted in the verse.
You are buying into worshipping a man that was created by God.and you are buying into a man who lied and claimed to be a prophet with a wild imagination
Oh and I don't do narcotics or haluconegenics, be it alcohol or marijauana.
He didn't lie, he fulfilled prophecies and spoke not of his own but the words God put in his mouth.He lied a lot and lots of contradictions in the Koran, tons, I just read it from front to back, very poorly written there is no flow and no chronology, also very arrogant, lots of jealosy towards Jews. Muhammad is a false prophet, dude wake up.
He did not contradict any of the past prophets but reaffirms what was. Yes skipping the man made beliefs of Paul and the church, and this is where we disagree.
lol do you have a brain to think for yourself or do you go to islamophobe websites and copy paste huge chunks of ridiculous text?hahaha do you think I have time to spend writing this, lol, everyone cuts and pastes, including you, doesn't take away from the fact that these are real contradictions. The Koran is fake bro face it.
The qur'an says we are created from water, ground/earth, etc... from a sperm, none of these are contradictions. It's just your lack of thought. All are true if you think.
When God says to us that we are from the soil of the earth, it makes total sense, our bodies are composed of elements found in this planet. When God says we are created from water, we know all life stems from water and will not exist without water. Our bodies are majorly composed of water. When God says He created us from a drop of sperm, He is not lying. He reminds us that we began from something so insignificant yet we grow up to be so arrogant and haughty against God.
No I paste verses because they are not my utterance, however I think and I write on my own. You cannot think for yourself and you have not taken the time to actually read the qur'an. You let someone else an islamophobe website or blog think for you. The only thing that's fake are your fake premises.Look at you melting down, keep to the subject pal
hahaha do you think I have time to spend writing this, lol, everyone cuts and pastes, including you, doesn't take away from the fact that these are real contradictions. The Koran is fake bro face it.
There's not a single actual contradiction in there. If you read the copy-and-pasted text you'll realize this. Some apply to different situations, others are in addition to, but not in replacement of, other verses, and therefore both verses can be true.lol, shows how much you know, lol, Goliath is a last name and Goliath had 5 brothers they where all called Goliath, LMAO
I've seen anti-Christian websites but I never use their thoughts unless I read and understand them for myself first, and if they make sense to me. One way of showing that it makes sense to you is to put something in your own words, and specifically to show a contradiction, you have to explain why it is unreasonable for both verses to be true. For example here are a few which are clear, black and white contradictions and its not reasonable for both versus to be true:
How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26).
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).
When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?
(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4).
(b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).
In what year of King Asa’’s reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?
(a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 - 16:8).
(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).
Who killed Goliath?
(a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50).
(b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).
lol, shows how much you know, lol, Goliath is a last name and Goliath had 5 brothers they where all called Goliath, LMAO
And you know these are referring to two different Goliath's or is that just a guess? I can look further into it to check myself as well.Bro I study ancient text and I am a historian, have studied every thing from the Summerians, Egyptions, Babylonions, Assyrian, Persians, Greeks and Romans and have read every major manuscript from antiquity, trust me Goliath had 5 brothers and they where all called Goliath. Elhanan killed Goliath's brother, this is a fact, not even up for debate.
There are also three others that I included in my post, and many others that I could have. However, my point was simply to show the difference between a clear-cut contradiction where its logically impossible for both verses to be true, versus the type you pasted from the anti-Islamic website that are not even actual contradictions but a weak, desperate attempt by an Islamophobe :)
You know you open a can of whoop ass when you start talking about 'contradictions', the bible is the biggest contradiction as it is not revealed through God as the qur'an was.You saying I did not read it does not make it so. The Koran has more contradictions then any other ancient text I have read and I have read them all. The Bible does not contradict itself but only a true historian will know this since the authors are in some cases 2000 years apart and it covers over 100 different nations and times, so it may appear to contradict itself but upon careful historical comparisons you will find no contradictions.
All that you posted about the qur'an are not contradictions I just touched on the water/soil/sperm/etc... example.
When it comes to the bible... apparently God can't do simple arithmetic. I have somewhere in my email scans of my bible where I highlighted contradictions in the same paragraphs, forget different chapters.
Anyways... don't waste your time bobs. Clearly this guy is not willing to read the qur'an.
Oh wow... this is getting funnier by the nanosecond. It's almost too much lolz!
Oh wow... this is getting funnier by the nanosecond. It's almost too much lolz!Give us some examples of what's making you laugh? be specific. I know what's making me laugh. Ahmed is so arrogant and obnoxious yet so emotional, but what's even funnier is he is trying to act like one of those arrogant preachers that say (pbuh) after the mention of Jesus and Muhammad.
Now the second one on you weak list ;D is simple
A chariot consists of 9 horsemen, so 1000 chariots = 6300 horsemen + the 700 single horsemen = 7000 horsement
Give us some examples of what's making you laugh? be specific. I know what's making me laugh. Ahmed is so arrogant and obnoxious yet so emotional, but what's even funnier is he is trying to act like one of those arrogant preachers that say (pbuh) after the mention of Jesus and Muhammad.
That you're both doing the exact same thing - starting with assumptions you hold true but cannot prove and then quoting a book which you, again, assume but can't prove is true, to disprove the beliefs of those you argue with, who do the exact same thing:
- "My magic book is true, and yours isn't!"
- "No! It's the other way around!"
- "Baloney! My magic book says X which proves yours is false!"
- "Nonsense! My magic book says Y which proves yours is false!"
- "You're following a false god!"
- "No! You're following a false god!"
And what's funnier still is that you both agree that this qualifies as a rational debate...
That's not really what's happening here, at least not from myself. I'm saying their God is the same as mine, that Jesus' teachings in the Bible are for the most part accurate, but that the majority of today's Christians don't follow Jesus' teachings and instead follow what other people (Paul, Council of Nicea, etc.) said about him, and that our book (Quran) is a progression from the Bible as the New Testament is to the Old. And yes the one thing you got correct is that I'm saying their book does contain human error, lost manuscripts, and disagreement over authenticity, luckily none of which are the case for the Quran.
There are two greek words - "pais" and "huios" that are translated as "son" in the Bible. "Pais" is derived from Hebrew "ebed," which means servant or slave. Therefore, the primary translation of "pais theou" is "servant of God" with "son of God" being the biased mistranslation.
The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament quotes "The Hebrew original of pais in the phrase pais theou, i.e. ebed, carries a stress on personal relationship and has first the sense of "slave.""
However, Bible translators use "servant" for "Pais Theou" in some verses describing David and Israel, but "son" or "holy child" when referring to Jesus. Same greek phrase, but selective English translations.
whoa, you lost me there. If a chariot = 9 horsement, then 1000 chariots = 9000 horsement not 7000. That puts your calculation off.Yes ,sorry I was typing to fast and erased a paragraph and forgot to re-type it, anyway we don't go by the English standard version, we go by the king James and the king James says...
Also, I'll post the verses, English Standard Version:
1 Chronicles 18:4 "And David took from him 1,000 chariots, 7,000 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers."
2 Samuel 8:4 "And David took from him 1,700 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers."
So regardless of the author or time, or the conversion of chariots to horsemen, we have two completely diffrent numbers here. One claims 7000 horsemen + chariots, while the other claims 1700 horsemen and without any chariots.
There are also others I posted and many many more I can post.
In other words, you're saying that the particular god they follow (in the person of Jesus) is a false god, and cite, as your "proof" your book, which you consider an unerring source of truth, to prove their book (or at least their interpretation of it), which they consider an unerring source of truth, wrong.lol, you just don't get it no matter how hard you try, that is actually funny to us, you see bigbob and I believe (100%) about the beginning, we believe Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Abraham Isaac and jacob where real men that played key role in humanity and we also believe in the flood. You see bogbobs has NOT told me what he believes because he does not have to.
What's happening here, bigbobs, is exactly what I described above. And that you don't see it makes it even funnier.
As for that last gem of sentence... the Quran contains more than it's share of blatant errors. In Surah 16:68, for example, Allah commands the bee to "eat of all fruits" but of course bees don't eat fruits. In Surah 51:49, Allah claims to have created everything in pairs, another clear error. Either these are human errors or they are errors by Allah. Which option do you prefer? Either is fine by me, since both shatter the assertions you make about the Quran.
lol, you just don't get it no matter how hard you try, that is actually funny to us, you see bigbob and I believe (100%) about the beginning, we believe Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Abraham Isaac and jacob where real men that played key role in humanity and we also believe in the flood. You see bogbobs has NOT told me what he believes because he does not have to.
I already know because there is a pattern between the "theology" (for lack of a better term) on events that took place and you guys can't see this pattern cause you are blinded by your evolution theory.
So these things are not necessary for us to argue cause we both know that these events took place.
The funny thing is from your perspective we are arguing all kinds of things, but reality is we are in agreement about 90% of things, just not everything.
That you're both doing the exact same thing - starting with assumptions you hold true but cannot prove and then quoting a book which you, again, assume but can't prove is true, to disprove the beliefs of those you argue with, who do the exact same thing:
- "My magic book is true, and yours isn't!"
- "No! It's the other way around!"
- "Baloney! My magic book says X which proves yours is false!"
- "Nonsense! My magic book says Y which proves yours is false!"
- "You're following a false god!"
- "No! You're following a false god!"
And what's funnier still is that you both agree that this qualifies as a rational debate...
He forgets he believes we come from monkies and that they come from rodents and that ultimately we all come from sea creatures that magically occured through an accident.Don't forget that "nothing exploded" to create everything, lmao
Clearly I am anti-science for disbelieving this ;D Even though I can describe the make up and workings of a cell while Darwin only saw a blob. Oh and might I remind fellow atheists he said his visual observation belief 'theory' would fall apart if a complex organism were to be found :)
Don't forget that "nothing exploded" to create everything, lmao
He forgets he believes we come from monkies and that they come from rodents and that ultimately we all come from sea creatures that magically occured through an accident.
Clearly I am anti-science for disbelieving this ;D Even though I can describe the make up and workings of a cell while Darwin only saw a blob. Oh and might I remind fellow atheists he said his visual observation belief 'theory' would fall apart if a complex organism were to be found :)
1400 years ago God also told us of the Big Bang and that the universe is expanding, which was not known to scientists until the 20th century :)Actually the Bible said this first ;D,... over 17 passages where God says he is stretching out the Heavens, but even if it was clustered together, that's still doesn't qualify as "nothing"
Quran 21:30 "Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"
Quran 51:47 "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are its expander"
The difference between my "belief" and yours is that mine is based on observed evidence and a theory that is falsifiable - i.e. one that makes predictions that can be tested and proven.Oh ya that's right you observe an ape change into a human. The theory is always say 'millions of years ago this', and millions of years ago that" ya you observed all that right?
No. You are anti-science because you believe that faith in the absence of evidence is a valid tools of acquiring knowledge. You are anti-science because you consider supernatural answers to natural questions as valid and proper. You are anti-science because you are not willing to even consider any evidence that contradicts your beliefs. You are anti-science because you consider "god did it!" to be an answer.
That you are able to google the description of a cell and paste it here doesn't make you pro-science. Even if you memorized it and could repeat it, word for word, on demand, that wouldn't make you pro-science, anymore than it would make you a scientist.
As for what you claim I said, can you provide the exact quote from me? I bet you can't and you're just making stuff up. Bad Muslim! Don't make me get the can of coins!
Oh ya that's right you observe an ape change into a human. The theory is always say 'millions of years ago this', and millions of years ago that" ya you observed all that right?
Your theory is a form of religion. Time to face the facts.
The difference between my "belief" and yours is that mine is based on observed evidence and a theory that is falsifiable - i.e. one that makes predictions that can be tested and proven.
No. You are anti-science because you believe that faith in the absence of evidence is a valid tools of acquiring knowledge. You are anti-science because you consider supernatural answers to natural questions as valid and proper. You are anti-science because you are not willing to even consider any evidence that contradicts your beliefs. You are anti-science because you consider "god did it!" to be an answer.
That you are able to google the description of a cell and paste it here doesn't make you pro-science. Even if you memorized it and could repeat it, word for word, on demand, that wouldn't make you pro-science, anymore than it would make you a scientist.
As for what you claim I said, can you provide the exact quote from me? I bet you can't and you're just making stuff up. Bad Muslim! Don't make me get the can of coins!
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species
lol the magical evolution routine did it?
I don't believe in blind faith like these christians arguing in this thread about worshipping Jesus and being saved and 'feeeeling the power' even though they don't know the bible and what it says.
I believe in God through observation and rational. I never bought into priests tell me "have faith and the holy spirit will guide you and bring understanding to the trinity". That's non-sense to me. Blind faith that is.
Through science I can believe in God, seeing how the human body is made up, how the various organs of the human body are functioning and together. Eyes, brain, liver, kidneys, heart, cardiovascular system, nervous system, bones, musculature, lungs, etc... etc... Cells and various other microscopic functions within our body, understanding how they work. They lead me to believe in God.
I use my fascilities of observation, my five senses and my brain through which i rationalize and think with. Either all this magically happened through some magical process called evolution or... it was designed and engineered by a greater power. Yes God.
To me your explanations are hocus pocus non-sense make belief. To you me believing in all this to be by design and engineered as hocus pocus. To you your beliefs, to me mine. However both of us employ science as a means to ascertain our beliefs. To me yours is irrational, to you, mine is 'irrational'.
You on the other hand use your eyes, have a preconcieved notion that you reject God and try to find any means necessary to justify to yourself that everything was an accident and your best explanation is some magical drawings.
In the end your belief comes down to, we come from monkies who come from rodents who ultimately come from sea creatures that ultimately come from pretty much nothing and just a bunch of accidents. Your evidence? A bunch of drawings? A bunch of ridiculous assertions, a bunch of rare bone fragments that artists can use their imagination upon, etc...
Your prophet Darwin doubted himself :)
Pretty much summed up. :)
Okay magical man, you believe we come from monkies, who come from rodents that ultimately come from sea creatures that come from accidents. lol so cute.
I donated a Christian magic book today to a children's organization.....you know, in hopes that I can brainwash them now while they're young.Did you tell them about 127 billion 438 million 300 thousand 543 animals that where in the Noah's ark? ;D
They need to understand the reality of the flying spaghetti monster and the almighty gnome.
Did you tell them about 127 billion 438 million 300 thousand 543 animals that where in the Noah's ark? ;DYep, matter of fact, one of the more outspoken kids asked me where Cain's wife came from so I smacked him with the very bible I was gonna give him and threw holy water on him.
avxo, now you have to make up stuff in order to win an argument.
Please tell me when Ahmed, bigbobs, MOS or myself told you that science requires faith? That's right non of us ever said such a stupid statement so why pretend that we did.
Evolution requires faith bro,
the theory is wrong,
to much assumption,
false assumptions,
very stupid ones,
the theory is no more science then religion.
Any part of the theory that incorporates science I have no problem with, as with any theory out there, there are some truth to them, but the bulk of it is simply wrong and require faith in order to believe in it.
Did you tell them about 127 billion 438 million 300 thousand 543 animals that where in the Noah's ark? ;D
Yep, matter of fact, one of the more outspoken kids asked me where Cain's wife came from so I smacked him with the very bible I was gonna give him and threw holy water on him.
how about the geologic column representing different periods in time. There are many parts of the world that have a younger layer over an older layer and how do you explain polystrate fossils going through 2 different layers, actually in many cases 3 different layers.
How about one species becoming another and don`t give me some lame example of one of 2 variations of one species but classified as 2 different species based on your biased classifications. That`s cheating and it`s fraud, I am talking about an ape becoming a human.
Lots and lots of micro evolution equals a macro evolution, that`s the biggest horseshit I have ever heard, plain stupid to think this.
There are boundaries and limitations between species.
Did he sizzle? I always like it when holy water sizzles and smokes upon contact with then heathens. ;D
It was hard to hear with me beating him over the head with the bible. And I wasn't using some pansy, pocketsized, NIV translation either....this was a real bible.....a rugged, hetero, Christian man's bible....an old, dusty, heavy King James version with thick raised lettering on the front so "Bible" was left clearly visible on his forehead.
I believe I changed a life that day.
Please demonstrate the Hebrew roots in those words. "Pais" means child, "Huios" means son.
Yes ,sorry I was typing to fast and erased a paragraph and forgot to re-type it, anyway we don't go by the English standard version, we go by the king James and the king James says...
The Greek word pais derives from the Hebrew ebed, which bears the primary meaning of servant or slave (reconfirmed in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament"
Let's take a step back...
Are you claiming that the origin of the Greek word παῖς is Hebrew? If so, there's absolutely no justification for this claim.
Or are you only claiming that some translations, incorrectly in your opinion, use the Greek word "παῖς" when translating the Hebrew word "ebed"?
And why is that? Because one version mistranslated itself to hide an obvious contradiction while other versions don't? I wonder if certain versions were also "updated" to hide other contradictions like the few I posted earlier. :)
BAMMM!
BigBobs owns all :) mashAllah
I just might throw this in.
In arabic it is Abd. Servant/slave.
The reasoning behind it is to emphasize that we are all slaves/servants/belonging to God.
In the declaration of faith in Islam we say:
ASH-HADU ANLAA ILAHA ILLA ALLAH WA ASH HADU ANNA MUHAMMADAN ABDUHU WA RASUULUH.
"I bear witness that there is no deity worthy to be worshipped but Allah, and I bear witness the Muhammad is His servant and messenger.''
Also worthy of note, Jesus spoke Aramaic. Not Latin.
It's amazing listening to it how many words are the same in Arabic. SubhanAllah...
Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, New Testament in Greek. Old Testament was later translated to Greek, in which ebed was translated to pais.
Since Acts is in the New Testament the example I chose to quote above does not require anything to be translated from Hebrew anyway. So we're still left with the question as to why Greek pais is translated as servant of God for David but son of God for Jesus.
You could have simply said "no, I am not claiming that the the Greek word παῖς is derived from Hebrew."
That was my point, the Hebrew word is different that the Greek. "Pais" means "child" in Greek though, no "slave" or "servant" meaning.
Ironically the phrase pais theou is selectively translated as servant of God regarding David (Acts 4:25, regardless of which version), but in many versions (King James, Webster's, etc.) translates pais theou in Acts 3:13 as "son of God" just because it refers to Jesus. Can't have it both ways.
Many other examples of selective translation too, but you get the point - there's an agenda to emphasize that Jesus is the son of God even through mistranslation, since the Bible alone does not make a case for this interpretation, or I should say misinterpretation :)
Not according to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.
Also, why isn't anyone responding to the main issue here: