overrated as a BB
Wouldn't crack the Top 5 at the Nationals these days.
Like cracking top 5 at the Nationals is an accomplishment these days. They all look like shit. You don't overrate yourself to 8 Mr. Os ace.
Never understood how he won 8. So underwhelming.
He was great on occasion and brought it on against fierce competition in '91 but he also cruised through a few 'Os against pretty weak fields without looking that great. Should have lost in '89 and '90. He suffers from being the champ' of a transitional era, stuck between the Golden Age and the most competitive era that the 90s were.
How was the competition only fierce in '91 (I think I know where this is going)? Most of the guys he beat then, he'd beaten in previous Olympias with one exception.
Exactly, you know where this is going. Sure, he did beat the other competitors before but some of them were on the uprise and by 91 (and later) were better than as young pros (Shawn Ray and Vince Taylor). Have a look at the field he was facing from '84 to '88. Nothing spectacular: even great physiques like DeMey or Paris weren't designed to win the '0. For years, his biggest threat was Gaspari who even at his best wouldn't have placed once in the top 6 in the 90s. Labrada arguably was his first real competition at the time and could or should have won '89 and maybe '90. And then came Dorian....
Exactly, you know where this is going. Sure, he did beat the other competitors before but some of them were on the uprise and by 91 (and later) were better than as young pros (Shawn Ray and Vince Taylor). Have a look at the field he was facing from '84 to '88. Nothing spectacular: even great physiques like DeMey or Paris weren't designed to win the '0. For years, his biggest threat was Gaspari who even at his best wouldn't have placed once in the top 6 in the 90s. Labrada arguably was his first real competition at the time and could or should have won '89 and maybe '90. And then came Dorian....Gaspari while not blessed with great structure, was very good for a while and burned out early
They were approximately the same size. At that size, Haney wins because he has better shape and proportions.
Haney was mr O at the height of popularity for bbing, when it was cool, and sort of mainstream. Lots of bbers did ads, shows were on espn, bbers in movies, tv shows, Golds was a popular hangout for actors, celebs, etc
And the mid80s were not a transitional dead era , bbing actually evolved then, if anything 80-83 was the transient period. All the guys that were huge in the late 90s had the mid 80s guys as their inspiration. Many turned pro then, and only really got going much later
That was not my point. I agree that in '91 Haney deserved it. He brought his all time best. I think he could have very well competed with the 90s guy (I don't think Gaspari would have stood a chance) but he wasn't willing to do what was necessary (up the dosage and get on the 'slin/GH train) which is admirable. But your record is always highlighted by the competition you faced. And that's why Haney is underrated nowadays.
Mainstream? I wouldn't go that far. Back in the day, you'd have to catch American Muscle, during the wee hours of the morning. And of course, the contest footage was 3-5 months old.
Occasionally a bodybuilding show would air, after Bodyshaping. I saw my first bodybuilding show on TV back in 1990 (the Junior USA), which aired after Bodyshaping.
That's why I was a big fan of the WBF. I found out the result of the first contest a week after it happened on WWF Superstars. I actually ordered the second (and final) WBF championship on PPV (cost me $15). I was excited about actually seeing a contest the day it occred. Unfortunately, the "100% U.S. Tested Grade-A Prime Beef" was not that beefy in 1992.
I just saw, in one of my old MuscleMags, a short article where the folks of American Muscle said that they were ditching the IFBB and NPC coverage and only featuring natural bodybuilding contests.
This war around the time MD was going through its identity crisis., morphing from Muscular Development-Fitness-Health (MDFH) to All-Natural Muscular Development (ANMD).
Gaspari while not blessed with great structure, was very good for a while and burned out early
Had Gaspari turned pro later, and been on similar compounds to others, things may have differed. Gaspari was way ahead of the pack with conditioning for many years
Many will say he was blocky, or no arms, wide waist, narrow shoulders, but he actually had a better structure and conditioning than many current pros
Labrada shouldve taken the O in 89, and 90 was between Labrada and Ray. Haney was off.
Imagine Haney on Dorians stack... Things couldve gotten ugly!
overrated as a BB
Wouldn't crack the Top 5 at the Nationals these days.
Never understood how he won 8. So underwhelming.When you have Rich Gaspari, Lee Labrada, Mike Christian, Gary Strydom, and Bertil Fox as your competitors...it's understandable that Lee would win. Each had pretty big flaws--Labrada's was only height.
"Sort of mainstream"
Pre-internet, still a subculture, cult sport, but trendy, "in" for a while. The guys may have been living in a van outside Golds, but they put up the "professional" schtick. The cars may have been on lease, the clothes bought by the "sponsor", but it appeared good. They carried themselves well, eloquent, wore suits that didn't make them look like idiots, etc
Also a lot of the guys that were big then turned out ok, without losing their dignity, some doing very well, with some exceptions
When you have Rich Gaspari, Lee Labrada, Mike Christian, Gary Strydom, and Bertil Fox as your competitors...it's understandable that Lee would win. Each had pretty big flaws--Labrada's was only height.
Lee Haney was much more impressive in person than in pictures. There is nobody during his era that could compete with him from the back. When Lee Haney turned around on stage, it was lights out. He also retired at the age of 31 i believe. That's really young for pro bodybuilding today.
What exactly does Mike have going on here in this pic? ???
I'll go out on a limb and say, if the IFBB guys were tested under the same scrutiny, we would have seen guys that made Mike Quinn look like Andreas Munzer.
Like cracking top 5 at the Nationals is an accomplishment these days. They all look like shit. You don't overrate yourself to 8 Mr. Os ace.dont waist a breath on this idiot bro.lee Haney through out his carrier and Ronnie in his first few olympia,s are the best bodybuilders ever walk on the earth.
Better than Ronnie, better than Dorian and better than Arnold..."small arms" and all
8x Mr. O.....No losses as Mr. O and went out on top and still healthy today. Great spokesman for bodybuilding and wonderful family man.
What exactly does Mike have going on here in this pic? ???
I dont think lees arms were small at all they just didnt overpower his torso , which people think is supposed to be the norm, big arms everything else be dammed...
lee was great... perfect physique,
I think it looks better with larger torso and a bit smaller but still complete arms. When he flexes, you has bis and tris.
Better than Ronnie, better than Dorian and better than Arnold..."small arms" and allIf you count being the best by flawless victories, Dorian wins cause in all his Olympia wins he did not lose a single round, so his victories, once already at the top, were unrivaled by any Olympian winner.
8x Mr. O.....No losses as Mr. O and went out on top and still healthy today. Great spokesman for bodybuilding and wonderful family man.
If you count being the best by flawless victories, Dorian wins cause in all his Olympia wins he did not lose a single round, so his victories, once already at the top, were unrivaled by any Olympian winner.
If you count who has the most Olympia Sandow, Haney is the best but tied with Ronnie, so not exactly the best but the position would be shared.
Now if you count the best being by how may Olympia's could have been won, well Arnold by a long shot, any expert in the world agrees that Arnold at the very least would have won from 1970 to 1980 and that would make 11 and possibly even 1981, 82, 83 so would make 14. Haney would not have made 9 no matter what cause Dorian almost stopped him in 1991 by winning the muscularity round and the the entire prejudging. also Dorian improved by leaps in 1992. Now Dorian also would not have been able to win anymore either as he had to many tears, and Coleman lost at the end as well. So Arnold clearly wins as the potential Sandows.
So clearly if you claim Haney is the best you have to include Ronnie or if there is another reason for thinking so it is only an opinion otherwise.
Truth is Dorian was the best of all time cause he had the least losses with the most dominant and flawless wins, not to mention in an era where 80% of the entire bodybuilding community agrees was the most dominant and strongest era.
His arms sucked.
If you count being the best by flawless victories, Dorian wins cause in all his Olympia wins he did not lose a single round, so his victories, once already at the top, were unrivaled by any Olympian winner.
If you count who has the most Olympia Sandow, Haney is the best but tied with Ronnie, so not exactly the best but the position would be shared.
Now if you count the best being by how may Olympia's could have been won, well Arnold by a long shot, any expert in the world agrees that Arnold at the very least would have won from 1970 to 1980 and that would make 11 and possibly even 1981, 82, 83 so would make 14. Haney would not have made 9 no matter what cause Dorian almost stopped him in 1991 by winning the muscularity round and the the entire prejudging. also Dorian improved by leaps in 1992. Now Dorian also would not have been able to win anymore either as he had to many tears, and Coleman lost at the end as well. So Arnold clearly wins as the potential Sandows.
So clearly if you claim Haney is the best you have to include Ronnie or if there is another reason for thinking so it is only an opinion otherwise.
Truth is Dorian was the best of all time cause he had the least losses with the most dominant and flawless wins, not to mention in an era where 80% of the entire bodybuilding community agrees was the most dominant and strongest era.
Never understood how he won 8. So underwhelming.
so who were the bbrs whom in your opinion deserved to win in these 8 years??..Well Yates won the prejudging in 91 and even though I agree with the outcome of the show I disagree that the winner of the prejudging should or could lose the show, prejudging is the sole decision on bodybuilder's physique, the rest of the judging is for political reasons as a second assessment, and to favor catch ups, nothing more.
If you count being the best by flawless victories, Dorian wins cause in all his Olympia wins he did not lose a single round, so his victories, once already at the top, were unrivaled by any Olympian winner.
If you count who has the most Olympia Sandow, Haney is the best but tied with Ronnie, so not exactly the best but the position would be shared.
Now if you count the best being by how may Olympia's could have been won, well Arnold by a long shot, any expert in the world agrees that Arnold at the very least would have won from 1970 to 1980 and that would make 11 and possibly even 1981, 82, 83 so would make 14. Haney would not have made 9 no matter what cause Dorian almost stopped him in 1991 by winning the muscularity round and the the entire prejudging. also Dorian improved by leaps in 1992. Now Dorian also would not have been able to win anymore either as he had to many tears, and Coleman lost at the end as well. So Arnold clearly wins as the potential Sandows.
So clearly if you claim Haney is the best you have to include Ronnie or if there is another reason for thinking so it is only an opinion otherwise.
Truth is Dorian was the best of all time cause he had the least losses with the most dominant and flawless wins, not to mention in an era where 80% of the entire bodybuilding community agrees was the most dominant and strongest era.
Well Yates won the prejudging in 91 and even though I agree with the outcome of the show I disagree that the winner of the prejudging should or could lose the show, prejudging is the sole decision on bodybuilder's physique, the rest of the judging is for political reasons as a second assessment, and to favor catch ups, nothing more.
::) ::) ::) Here we go....I'll end this really quick. Haney 8 Mr. Os. Yates 6. Haney undefeated as Mr. O Ronnie 2 losses....End of story.There is one way to put it, well said, come on Wiggs, you know I love playing devil's advocate. Man you are not getting soft on us are you? :D ;) 8)
You're using all these hypothetical scenarios when history has already been played out.No I was answering his question, he asked who ? well agree that Haney won the 91 and he should have and I also agree that he should have won the prejudging as well, but since he did not win the preduging then he should not have won the show cause the winner of the prejudging at every single show should be the winner.
There is one way to put it, well said, come on Wiggs, you know I love playing devil's advocate. Man you are not getting soft on us are you? :D ;) 8)
Well Yates won the prejudging in 91 and even though I agree with the outcome of the show I disagree that the winner of the prejudging should or could lose the show, prejudging is the sole decision on bodybuilder's physique, the rest of the judging is for political reasons as a second assessment, and to favor catch ups, nothing more.
lol.Ya and don't forget the pregnant bellies came in the 90's too but obviously not as bad as today. but also as much as I want to believe everyone from the 90's used Esiclene and I almost do but can not accept that Yates did at all.
It doesn't mean I don't like Yates or Ronnie cause I like 1998 Ronnie (Best physique all time even with shitty calves and odd ab wall.) 93 and 96 Yates absolutely nasty. But Their careers as a whole, I give to Haney. No real flaws.
Not directed at you One, but I don't know if alot people know that these guys in the 90s used a shit load of esiclene. To me, it's no different than synthol or other fillers.
and i dont know how yates won the PJ.. haney was better in more poses.. was close but haney was better..I agree Yates should not have beat Haney in the prejudging
Haney could have still retained it in 92 as Yates was just a bit different but it's the 93 Yates that changed the name of the game. For better and worse. Unprecedented mass, crazy conditioning and still lines, proportions. Levrone, Wheeler, Ray, the '95 and '96 Nasser, Dillett, all still kept alive the legacy of classic physiques somehow. But there's no doubt that it's also Yates that initiated (some will say Momo but it's Yates success that made it the norm) the distended bellies, the reign of mass over lines, proportions, aesthetic. That's why people still debate so much about Yates and not that much about Haney.Yates was still different in 92, not much but still enough to beat any version of Haney, he was even leaner in 92 and had bigger shoulder and a slightly bigger back. Those improvement were enough especially since he won the entire prejudging the year before, like him or hate but the judges loved him and that is all that counts, Haney would never have won after 1991.
I think it looks better with larger torso and a bit smaller but still complete arms. When he flexes, you has bis and tris.
No one on the planet could see Haney making more improvements then he did and 9 out of 10 of the bodybuilding community agrees that Haney could not beat a 92 Yates, but who cares even if he could that argument only would count for something against potential Olympia wins which Arnold clearly wins over anyone even if you did give that potential win to Haney.
As for the best ever is someone who not only gets to the top but separates himself from the field and Haney did not do this and Dorian did, in fact Dorian is the only multiple Olympian winner who never lost a round except Heath but Heath only has 2 wins
Dominance is what wins the category of the best ever and Haney lost way too many rounds in fact only 2 or 3 Olympias he did not lose rounds, he lost rounds against Gaspari, Labrada and Yates and Coleman too, lost rounds to wheeler, Cutler and Levrone and even lost a show to gunter during his reign so forget about those 2 being the best ever if they are struggling and barely winning while Yates is winning by a country mile with ease.
Yates wins.
I remember as a young man seeing this picture and thinking Lee wasn't even from this planet
Not many could stand next to Haney.
i dont understand those ppl who see haney overrated.. the man had the best V taper ever..
Awe shit. We agree on something! This is a start my friend. lol
Awe shit. We agree on something! This is a start my friend. lolhaney 91 beat yates soundly,,,92 yates was different,93 from another planet,,,,
How did Haney beat Yates soundly in 91 when he lost an entire round? ??? lolsorry clarify on a physique level ,yates was known for one of the best backs haney too ,haney in that shot maybe yates is not in full spread is being beat there,fdb which both there arme were never great ,again haney flow is better ,score card in know had it different but picture's show haney was great that yr,even his legs were sharpest,driest he ever had them.
Anyway, Haney was great, but I always thought Sergio Oliva had a more impressive physique than him, on arguably less complex drugs. Better genetics also.
haney 91 beat yates soundly,,,92 yates was different,93 from another planet,,,,
Maybe Lee could be their(Hanes) next spokesman..like Michael Jordan.. ;DHanes had the perfect combo of conditioned mass and aestetics.
i agree but yates in 92 was still not enough to beat haney at his best.. yates was only 3 pounds heavier in 92 than 91..yeah,,,i mean yates lats started to hang like haneys 93 on in fdb pose,haney had better waist and v taper..
sure yates 93 was something else and i dont think haney could play the "extra" mass game in a good way as yates.. haney's great back was still kinda soft even at his very best under 250 lbs so if he had added more weigh i think he would have killed his condition..
i agree but yates in 92 was still not enough to beat haney at his best.. yates was only 3 pounds heavier in 92 than 91..Bro how can you say that when he beat Haney in the prejudging the year before, that means the judges favored his physique already and a 3 lbs of improvement on ripped mass is enormous at this level of conditioning, furthemore you are forgetting that 3lb on scale does not translate to 3lb increase in muscle, more like 6-7lb increase considering he was way leaner in 92, he even explained why he gained so much in 93 and it was not that he gained so much in 1 year but he did it in 2 years but you just did not see it on the scale in 92 cause he over dieted, which means he was way leaner.
sure yates 93 was something else and i dont think haney could play the "extra" mass game in a good way as yates.. haney's great back was still kinda soft even at his very best under 250 lbs so if he had added more weigh i think he would have killed his condition..
Nobody could see Yates making the drastic change he made from '92 to '93, either.I stand corrected and you are right, there was a possibility Haney could have improved, unlikely after 8 olympias and givan the already dramatic improvements he made from 90 to 91), however still possible and any improvements on Haney`s behalf would have bested Yates in 92 I suppose.
Why couldn't Haney make such a similar metamorphisis?
Age? Haney was only 3 years older than Yates.
Genetics? I'd say, at least, they're even there.
If Yates were bigger, I could see it. But, if Haney match him, size-wise, in '92, Haney would beat him again.
Bro how can you say that when he beat Haney in the prejudging the year before, that means the judges favored his physique already and a 3 lbs of improvement on ripped mass is enormous at this level of conditioning, furthemore you are forgetting that 3lb on scale does not translate to 3lb increase in muscle, more like 6-7lb increase considering he was way leaner in 92, he even explained why he gained so much in 93 and it was not that he gained so much in 1 year but he did it in 2 years but you just did not see it on the scale in 92 cause he over dieted, which means he was way leaner.
Also he was only 235 at the noc in 91 which means he came several lb heavier for the O so obviously there was some bloat there, certainly not as lean as 92 so your 3lb gain scenario means nothing.
Instead of claiming that Lee Haney`s 91 version would still beat a 92 Yates you should hold McWay`s position instead which is Haney might have improved too and with this argument I can not really say anything against cause it is a reasonable possibility but no way Haney`s 91 version beats Yates`s 92 version, NO WAY. The judges gave Haney the nod by a hair, not even a hair, a split hair so obviously any improvements, even marginal ones would have won the judges over, we are talking who the judges would have decided who would have won and clearly they would have decided Yates without a shadow(pun intended ;D) of a doubt
^^^^^^
THANK YOU.
Haney knew he lost the muscularity round to Yates in '91. He might be a good ole' boy from Spartanburg, but Lee's not so stupid as to review those scoresheets and think, "Hmm, well den, I guess I better gots to gets bigguh nest year!"
The result of that would be a disaster. He'd probably show up looking smooth and, if bigger than Dorian, only by a hair. And if Lee decided to try and get leaner for the '92 Olympia while Dozzer was getting leaner AND bigger in the meantime ... eh. Either way, I don't see it working out very well for Lee.
I will be 35 in 13 days. I freely admit that, apart from some of Lee's TV ads and a glimpse or two at his TV show, I don't remember the man as he was competing; I started lifting really seriously around the time Dorian took over. But from all of the footage I've seen, stills and videos, and all of the old contest reports from the time (e.g., FLEX's report on the '93 Olympia, which all but flew off the page, hauled ass to England and figuratively blew Dorian's balls off), the consensus at the time was that '92 Dorian was a slight step up from Lee. He didn't have Lee's retarded-huge pecs when standing relaxed (ironic, since Dorian was stronger than Lee in chest presses), but perhaps apart from the side-chest, Doz won the remainder of the compulsories vs. Lee's very best. And in '93? LOL. Forget it. Even FLEX magazine said Wheeler, if just a bit sharper, probably would've beaten Haney at the 1993 Olympia.
(Aside: I dunno about that. If Lee showed up looking sloppy, he would've been out of the top six, easy. But at this best? I think he'd still be right there with Dorian. Flex lost a tick of luster from his pro debut shows, even if he was far more shredded at the '93 Olympia than he'd be for any other. I just don't think he had the size and presence to make himself stand out on a Dorian-Lee-Ken comparison.)
I stand corrected and you are right, there was a possibility Haney could have improved, unlikely after 8 olympias and givan the already dramatic improvements he made from 90 to 91), however still possible and any improvements on Haney`s behalf would have bested Yates in 92 I suppose.
sorry clarify on a physique level ,yates was known for one of the best backs haney too ,haney in that shot maybe yates is not in full spread is being beat there,fdb which both there arme were never great ,again haney flow is better ,score card in know had it different but picture's show haney was great that yr,even his legs were sharpest,driest he ever had them.
Bro how can you say that when he beat Haney in the prejudging the year before, that means the judges favored his physique already and a 3 lbs of improvement on ripped mass is enormous at this level of conditioning, furthemore you are forgetting that 3lb on scale does not translate to 3lb increase in muscle, more like 6-7lb increase considering he was way leaner in 92, he even explained why he gained so much in 93 and it was not that he gained so much in 1 year but he did it in 2 years but you just did not see it on the scale in 92 cause he over dieted, which means he was way leaner.
Also he was only 235 at the noc in 91 which means he came several lb heavier for the O so obviously there was some bloat there, certainly not as lean as 92 so your 3lb gain scenario means nothing.
Instead of claiming that Lee Haney`s 91 version would still beat a 92 Yates you should hold McWay`s position instead which is Haney might have improved too and with this argument I can not really say anything against cause it is a reasonable possibility but no way Haney`s 91 version beats Yates`s 92 version, NO WAY. The judges gave Haney the nod by a hair, not even a hair, a split hair so obviously any improvements, even marginal ones would have won the judges over, we are talking who the judges would have decided who would have won and clearly they would have decided Yates without a shadow(pun intended ;D) of a doubt
Yates was still different in 92, not much but still enough to beat any version of Haney, he was even leaner in 92 and had bigger shoulder and a slightly bigger back. Those improvement were enough especially since he won the entire prejudging the year before, like him or hate but the judges loved him and that is all that counts, Haney would never have won after 1991.
Well, remember that Haney's improvements from 90-91 were a result of removing the drug test.
And people always talk about, "Oh, Haney was so young when he retired; if he kept training, took X, Y and Z, I bet he could have ... "
Setting aside the fact that's all idle speculation, Haney -- JUST LIKE DORIAN AND RONNIE -- had probably maxed out his frame and would never as look good beyond about the 255ish mark. Dozzer was best at 255-260, tops. Ronnie was golden at as "little" as 244 at the ASC, 248 for the '98 Olympia and 254ish at the '99 Olympia. Haney was arguably at his best in the '86 grand prix shows and '91 Olympia, weighing anywhere between ~238 and 247 IIRC.
Lee had plenty of time to "grow" between 1986 and 1991. Oddly enough, in the pictures I've seen, he looked more impressive at the earlier show. Did he just sit around and jerk off for all of those years, or what? ::) Bullshit. He'd pushed his frame as far as his lifting, genetics and medicine chest would allow.
And I don't buy this nonsense about Dorian et al. having access to fancy drugs, peptides and/or megadosing where Lee didn't. Lee got out of the game early because he was sick of abusing his system with tons upon tons of shit. (Ever heard that Lee REALLY loved Anadrol? From what I gather, it's true ;) .) And yes, he knew how to use gH. To my knowledge, the only thing he did not do is fuck about with insulin, and that's what took our Dorians, Ronnies, Ruehls and such and made them into 270 lb. ogres.
I'm with Rob Schuh's opinion from way back: Dorian would have whipped Lee in '92, but Lee never would've done the show because he knew he probably couldn't win. He gave it his all to end on a positive note and knew trying to improve on that would not only likely make him sick, he'd lose anyway.
Lee was a great bodybuilder, builds like that got a whole lot of guys from my generation into training, saying that the sport peaked in 93 with Flex shape at the Ironman Arnold and Yates shape at the olympia, the whole sport has been downhill from then including Ronnie, who was in no doubt the most muscular person ever, but not the best bodybuilder when you consider the old judging criteria, Ronnie's structure is far from perfect, in-fact he beat many guys with much better structure because the sport changed we were on our way down the shitty path that has resulted in todays over drugged bodies, where they look like fat guys with muscles, the IFBB effectively killed and limited the marketability of the sport, people today, mainstream people would still like to see physiques from the arnold Haney era, just not the dorian ronnie era, whether it was more drugs or genetics the generation of muscle obesity started and now days they all look like s.hi.tcoleman built a sick amount of size/thickness in certain parts never seen and conditioned,,but you see now and his early football pics and even early training photos ,,a narrowish drooped shoulder,droopy pec,4 pack,that grew cartoonish to diminish those genetic flaws ,,plenty of guys were prettier to look at,or had great shape but he outmuscled them tenfold...
Lee was a great bodybuilder, builds like that got a whole lot of guys from my generation into training, saying that the sport peaked in 93 with Flex shape at the Ironman Arnold and Yates shape at the olympia, the whole sport has been downhill from then including Ronnie, who was in no doubt the most muscular person ever, but not the best bodybuilder when you consider the old judging criteria, Ronnie's structure is far from perfect, in-fact he beat many guys with much better structure because the sport changed we were on our way down the shitty path that has resulted in todays over drugged bodies, where they look like fat guys with muscles, the IFBB effectively killed and limited the marketability of the sport, people today, mainstream people would still like to see physiques from the arnold Haney era, just not the dorian ronnie era, whether it was more drugs or genetics the generation of muscle obesity started and now days they all look like s.hi.t
coleman built a sick amount of size/thickness in certain parts never seen and conditioned,,but you see now and his early football pics and even early training photos ,,a narrowish drooped shoulder,droopy pec,4 pack,that grew cartoonish to diminish those genetic flaws ,,plenty of guys were prettier to look at,or had great shape but he outmuscled them tenfold...
i agree for the most part, except that "mainstream people would still like to see physiques form the arnold Haney era"... the "mainstream people" of today would think he was just another steroid freak. the cat is out of the bag, bodybuilding is dead.
TL, DR. Serge Nubret for the win:this pic is insane,,unreal shape/proportion,,,,but coleman kinda had same look just larger naturally genetic base but he grew out and out till it looked like overblown sausage and now he has nowhere to go but down,,,got rest his soul serge looked incredible 50/60's ,,,coleman is toast,,,
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-syoJDaHCxfw/TbAitnQMHhI/AAAAAAAAE-k/EsTAciz_9Ac/s1600/sergenubret.jpg)
TL, DR. Serge Nubret for the win:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-syoJDaHCxfw/TbAitnQMHhI/AAAAAAAAE-k/EsTAciz_9Ac/s1600/sergenubret.jpg)
I think when the judges looked at the pre-judging tape in 91, they realized they made a mistake. Haney's muscle maturity was leaps and bounds better than Yates. I think the judges wanted someone to beat Haney who basically like Ray kept bringing the same package. But that package was still better than anyone's on stage. So they fixed their mistake at the night show. I think 92 would have been close.That was not their explanation though. their explanation was that Dorian's physique looks harder and drier in person, and the grainy look that does not show up in video and picture, this is why Yates won the prejudging and when you see pictures it did not look that way. People call BS but anyone that has seen yates in person knew about this look, very pleasing to the judges and 100's of people over the years have commented on this particular attribute. The fact is Yates and Haney were 1 hair apart in 91 and 92 had the same judging panels so if Yates had improved even slightly, which he did, then the judges would have giving him the win unless Haney improved as well.
If you count being the best by flawless victories, Dorian wins cause in all his Olympia wins he did not lose a single round, so his victories, once already at the top, were unrivaled by any Olympian winner.
TL, DR. Serge Nubret for the win:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-syoJDaHCxfw/TbAitnQMHhI/AAAAAAAAE-k/EsTAciz_9Ac/s1600/sergenubret.jpg)
but you also have to count that dorian's numbers were the biggest scam in the history of bodybuilding.So be it, fine, they are the biggest scam, so you are admitting that based on the numbers (even though the numbers are a scam) Dorian is the greatest of all time right?
this one a perfect score in the symmetry round in 1994: ::)
enough said.
Yeah, those perfect scores mean shit to me when He had one arm in 94, 95, 96, 97...That should tell you something right there. He more than likely deserved to win in 94-96 but with perfect scores, no. Perfect scores mean you have no flaws. Dorian's waist and one arms ruined his, "perfection".Yes but they mean a lot in discussions where we are trying to figure out what the judges would do in any given scenario, after all these are the judges doing.
So be it, fine, they are the biggest scam, so you are admitting that based on the numbers (even though the numbers are a scam) Dorian is the greatest of all time right?
no because Ronnie has more Mr. O wins than dorian and the highest number of pro wins by anyone.But the numbers show flawless victories and Ronnie does not have 6 Olympia titles without rounds losts.
so, by numbers and by real life physique, Ronnie is the greatest of all time
no because Ronnie has more Mr. O wins than dorian and the highest number of pro wins by anyone.
so, by numbers and by real life physique, Ronnie is the greatest of all time
Serge had a great physique
But did not pull off the compulsories as well as when standing in his signature poses, especially with arms away from the body, that's why there aren't many shots of those
But the numbers show flawless victories and Ronnie does not have 6 Olympia titles without rounds losts.
The Sun Tzu said; The greatest general is not the one with the most wins, it'is the one with the fewest losses.
That was not their explanation though. their explanation was that Dorian's physique looks harder and drier in person, and the grainy look that does not show up in video and picture, this is why Yates won the prejudging and when you see pictures it did not look that way. People call BS but anyone that has seen yates in person knew about this look, very pleasing to the judges and 100's of people over the years have commented on this particular attribute. The fact is Yates and Haney were 1 hair apart in 91 and 92 had the same judging panels so if Yates had improved even slightly, which he did, then the judges would have giving him the win unless Haney improved as well.
And as I said, how was he going to pull that off? He looked every bit as big and leaner at a '86 grand prix show (though, in fairness, those pics were probably sharpened more than a certain poster's collection of masturbatory pics of Ronnie from all the shows he did in '99).
I hear people say, oh, Lee was young, he could've kept on growing, blah blah -- well, why didn't he, then? Some guys just peak earlier than others. Assuming they can keep growing just because some older guys find a second wind is bullshit. What they don't realize is Haney got big really, really FAST and started winning Olympias. Ronnie took his time but he wasn't gaining by leaps and bounds until he started showing up with a giant gut, legs and ass.
Haney had to have known he had two choices against Yates:
A. Try to come in more cut (and likely be smaller than in '91)
or
Option D. Come in even bigger and, again, as I said, risk losing the muscularity round by an even larger margin.
Look at it from Lee's perspective. Dorian was a young pup, 3 years younger than Lee. Lee had been winning the biggest titles for many years while Dorian went from relative obscurity to the very top in less than 3 years' time. Chances were good Dorian would be bigger than the previous year AND just as lean, if not leaner. And if he brought up his so-called "weak points" the way he brought up his back after losing to Momo at the '90 NOC ... sweet Jesus. WTF would you do? Retire with the record and dignity, or risk putting it all on the line and going out second-best?
That's another thing a lot of guys here don't understand. Contest prep isn't as simple as, "Well, I was 256, dry as a bone and 5.1% bodyfat least year; I've added a couple of pounds of lean mass, I'm on target to be at least that lean again ... hey, I got it in the bag." There ARE last minute fuck-ups. Family members can die in the final weeks leading up to a show. Any number of things can happen that can make any projection on paper, no matter how well-reasoned, bullshit when you're water-logged, thinking about a divorce, sick kid or even something as "benign" as a sinus infection and you're standing onstage opposite a guy with Yates' mentality.
This fallacy that Haney retired out of fear of Yates is laughable, to say the least. Haney had no more mountains to climb, after defeating Yates to win #8 and break Arnold's record.
At his acceptance speech at the conclusion of the 1991 Mr Olympia , Haney said he finally learned how to peak on the day of the show and hinted he would be around for another title , he didn't and Dorian was the reason why, that and he had everything to lose and nothing to gain
Haney may have beaten Dorian 92 if he showed up like he did in 91 but by 1993 NO version of Haney would have beaten Dorian
At his acceptance speech at the conclusion of the 1991 Mr Olympia , Haney said he finally learned how to peak on the day of the show and hinted he would be around for another title , he didn't and Dorian was the reason why, that and he had everything to lose and nothing to gain
Haney may have beaten Dorian 92 if he showed up like he did in 91 but by 1993 NO version of Haney would have beaten Dorian
Throwing all the statistics out the window and just going by physique
I felt like Ronnie circa 98-99 was much like an improved Haney.
He had the arms that Haney lacked (to some degree).
Ronnie had more detail to his back. Although Haney had an awesome
back I didn't feel it was super detailed like a 1983 Samir, early Ronnie and Yates.
Ronnie's legs, hams and glutes are just on a completely different level.
Ronnie had some mild distention even in 98-99 and in that area Haney is
far superior. I've seen Haney in very good condition close up and even in video
Ronnie is more impressive.
Beisdes Yates in 1991, the best physique Haney competed against was Labrada in
1989. Labrada was close to perfection but was between 176-180 pounds.
Labrada brought that Yates like conditioning that year: (No Fat, No Water, Thin Skin but nowhere
close to Yates density); but at 180 pounds it puts
the level of Haney's competition into perspective.
As far as being a good, decent human being, you would be hard pressed to find
many as good as Haney though.
Labrada in 1989...
I like Lebrada. Perfect proportions, excellent conditioning, masterful posing but 180lbs is unacceptable. I'm not saying getting bigger would have helped him because he's a short guy but he did the best he could with what he was given with great results but it was not enough to beat a 5'11 245lb ebony mountain of muscle...with symmetry.
same can be said about shawn ray..
Correct but Ray was 205-213 vs. Lebrada's 180. That's a huge difference. Ray is better than Lebrada and even Ray's best isn't better than Haney.
Shawn was VERY good in 1992 and came in 4th right behind Labrada. Both at there best are
very close.
Labrada's structure is better. For his frame he has wider clavicles and his torso to leg length
is better proportioned than Ray's.
Shawn had more bulbous muscle than Labrada and more happened (POP) to his muscles
when he hit a pose. His clavicles weren't as wide, his torso was a little long for his leg length.
I agree Shawn at his best edges out Labrada and I agree that Shawn at his best
would not win against a 1991 Haney.
I agree with you but probably think it would be closer than you do.
I like Lebrada. Perfect proportions, excellent conditioning, masterful posing but 180lbs is unacceptable. I'm not saying getting bigger would have helped him because he's a short guy but he did the best he could with what he was given with great results but it was not enough to beat a 5'11 245lb ebony mountain of muscle...with symmetry.
Ronnie 8 Mr. O's -----------2 Losses as Mr. O
Dorian 6 Mr. O's ----------- 0 Losses as Mr. O
Haney 8 Mr. O's ----------- 0 Losses as Mr. O ------------Haney = Best Mr. O.
Haney was king, but in 89 Labrada was Mr olympia, IMO
1990 was upside down because of testing, Haney was smaller and off, Ray was on, and Labrada not as good as 89, but better than Haney. The Mr O 1990 should've been 1 Ray 2 Labrada 3 Haney but there was a better chance of Nasser winning a back comparison vsYates&Ronnie, than that happenning.
actually it happened 8) ;D
discussion over
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65q6gwmto1rpmosfo1_500.jpg)
Again, you assume that Haney couldn't have made the same jump in size that Yates did. I don't remember Haney hinting about doing another Olympia. I think he specifically stated he was calling it a day. What else was there for him?
The last milestone was Arnold's record. He broke it and went out in style.
Shawn was VERY good in 1992 and came in 4th right behind Labrada. Both at there best are
very close.
Labrada's structure is better. For his frame he has wider clavicles and his torso to leg length
is better proportioned than Ray's.
Shawn had more bulbous muscle than Labrada and more happened (POP) to his muscles
when he hit a pose. His clavicles weren't as wide, his torso was a little long for his leg length.
I agree Shawn at his best edges out Labrada and I agree that Shawn at his best
would not win against a 1991 Haney.
I agree with you but probably think it would be closer than you do.
Ronnie 8 Mr. O's -----------2 Losses as Mr. O
Dorian 6 Mr. O's ----------- 0 Losses as Mr. O
Haney 8 Mr. O's ----------- 0 Losses as Mr. O ------------Haney = Best Mr. O.
Lee Labrada is better than Shawn , Lee beat Haney in a round. How close did Shawn come to Haney?
yesWHY? AND MANI MISS THE OLD DAYS,SO MUCH BETTER ESPECIALLY WITH ALL THOSE WEIDER PRODUCTS ( WEIDER " CUTS " AND MEGA MASS 2000 ) .
WHY? AND MANI MISS THE OLD DAYS,SO MUCH BETTER ESPECIALLY WITH ALL THOSE WEIDER PRODUCTS ( WEIDER " CUTS " AND MEGA MASS 2000 ) .Haney was more complete ..........(he had everything Arnold had/and those things that Arnold didn't have)
Haney is better than Coleman also. Haney can pose, has calves, has a real 6 or 8 pack, never lost as Mr. O (Ronnie lost once to Gunther and twice to Jay), Haney never had a gut, never looked like shit except when they all had to go natural. Haney is the best and most complete Mr. O ever. Better than Michilin man Heath also.he had small arms tho.
he had small arms tho.You gotta/had to see Haney in person tho! (and im not one to be easily impressed by bodybuilders...he had that "Awesome-ness" thing going on!) oh yea...... no homo
Yes
Arnold would never be able to defeat this.
Haney was more complete ..........(he had everything Arnold had/and those things that Arnold didn't have)he had a gap in his teeth , that could never really get over :D :D :D :D
You gotta/had to see Haney in person tho! (and im not one to be easily impressed by bodybuilders...he had that "Awesome-ness" thing going on!) oh yea...... no homo
I REMEMBER YEARS BACK IN MUSCLE AND FITNESS THERE WAS A SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON OF THE TWO ASKING " WHO IS BETTER " I ALWAYS THOUGHT ARNIE, AND NOT BEING BIASSED BUT I THOUGHT HE WAS BIGGER, WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK AND CAN ANYONE FIND THAT PIC?in my humble opinion.......lee had a much better back.......they are even in the chest area.......obviously arnie has lee in the arms dept.......lee had better traps and shoulders.......lee had a smaller waist......both gents were fine posers......lee had better quads and hams......arnie obviously had lee in the calf dept..........very close......maybe too close to call.
yesx2. Even Arnold said he'd have a hard time in an article back in the 80's.
x2. Even Arnold said he'd have a hard time in an article back in the 80's.
Mike, u back posting here? Can't believe I missed u in Tampa bro. Was looking forward to meeting you.
The 2 best bodybuilders of all time. I think Arnold would have done what's necessary to beat Lee; stole his t-shirt, posed in front of the white line, pulled the fire alarm several times the night before the show, etc.
Without breaking down point by point, body part by body part, just looking at them as a whole, Arnold was more eye pleasing than Haney.
Big Mike, you got a recent biceps shot for us?...
"Everything Arnold had and more".. No. Arnold had biceps and chest on Haney. Anyday of the week.I agree. The 74 Arnold would have given Haney a good battle.
And that is despite being from an earlier era!
Except for back, Arnold was ridiculous in 73-74.
;D ;D ;D, I know exactly what happened, I was at the buffet they had set up for us ;D. Only competitors were allowed back there. Next time big Mike. Thanks btw
Me and my girl were looking for you Rudy (saw you onstage/you looked great!) we went up that big staircase to find you and say hi..saw everyone except you! lol ..let me know when your going to compete again..
Haney is better than Coleman also. Haney can pose, has calves, has a real 6 or 8 pack, never lost as Mr. O (Ronnie lost once to Gunther and twice to Jay), Haney never had a gut, never looked like shit except when they all had to go natural. Haney is the best and most complete Mr. O ever. Better than Michilin man Heath also.
I REMEMBER YEARS BACK IN MUSCLE AND FITNESS THERE WAS A SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON OF THE TWO ASKING " WHO IS BETTER " I ALWAYS THOUGHT ARNIE, AND NOT BEING BIASSED BUT I THOUGHT HE WAS BIGGER, WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK AND CAN ANYONE FIND THAT PIC?body? of course.
I wonder whp has made more money?Wonder ho much money is Arnold paying that old lady maid he had sex with and a kid?
...You turned into a monkey armed mexican. What happened?
Wonder ho much money is Arnold paying that old lady maid he had sex with and a kid?
Too much. Wtf was he thinking? He could have had some fine hoes. Not some low rent toilet cleaner.Exactly damn even John Daily could of drilled her.
...
This is bodybuilding , and Haney is the perfect example of it ...
I feel comfortable to say that Lee Haney represents the ultimate physique a human being can obtain with aas without abusing gh and slin.
Agreed! Abuse made them bigger but not better. You take 91 haney, 93 Yates and 98 Coleman. I gotta my personal choice is 91 Haney 98 Coleman, 93 Yates. Yates just doesn't have the flow to his physique that would put him at number 1. 98 Coleman is near perfection except weird abs, shitty calves, shitty posing. (Gotta know how to show your body off the best way possible). 91 Haney = Could arms have been bigger? Yes. Are they small? No. Could legs have been bigger? Yes but why? It takes away from the physique. Legs aren't meant to be that big and it looks stupid.
Agreed! Abuse made them bigger but not better. You take 91 haney, 93 Yates and 98 Coleman. I gotta my personal choice is 91 Haney 98 Coleman, 93 Yates. Yates just doesn't have the flow to his physique that would put him at number 1. 98 Coleman is near perfection except weird abs, shitty calves, shitty posing. (Gotta know how to show your body off the best way possible). 91 Haney = Could arms have been bigger? Yes. Are they small? No. Could legs have been bigger? Yes but why? It takes away from the physique. Legs aren't meant to be that big and it looks stupid.
Your personal choice doesn't win contests , 1993 Dorian would beat Haney 91 and Ronnie 98 with ease , this is based off of the IFBB judging criteria and not personal preference
Your personal choice doesn't win contests , 1993 Dorian would beat Haney 91 and Ronnie 98 with ease , this is based off of the IFBB judging criteria and not personal preference
I disagree, but I won't debate it. You have way too much energy and resilience for me, ND.
Your personal choice doesn't win contests , 1993 Dorian would beat Haney 91 and Ronnie 98 with ease , this is based off of the IFBB judging criteria and not personal preference
ND, I didn't know you were a judge. So by that, Coleman in 2003 smoked Dorian in 1993. He was 285 and shredded. He would have dwarfed Yates. Your reasoning always is bunk. Show us your IFBB judging criteria ND .... who the fuck made you the authority lol.
yeah but the whole body isn't meant to be that big, can't pick and choose what bodyparts you like to see swole.
arms were weak...it is what it is. best torso ever IMO, very good, not great, legs. top 5 all time BBer...not the best ever.
Haney was the bridge between the Arnold era standard of physique, and the retarded era standard of physique.
You're right my personal choice doesn't 98 Ronnie would win overall. Then Yates, then Haney in a contest.
Hahaha, not nice of you to post that pic of Ronnie my friend! ;-)
1998 Mr Olympia Ronnie Coleman the best he's ever looked in any contest just barely beats a past-his-prime Flex Wheeler in what is to this day one of the closest Mr Olympia contests EVER the winner and loser separated by just 3 points
Dorian 1993 was so far ahead of Flex Wheeler who was in much better shape in 1993 compared to 1998 Samir Bannout claimed Dorian was 1st , 2nd and 3rd and Ronnie 1998 is supposed to beat Dorian? LLLLMMMMMMAAAAAAOOOOOO
sure ya right
Based on physique, Lee Haney is my favorite Mr. Olympia. That is a perfect physique. Plus he seemed like a great guy when I met him and I've always heard great things about him.
This isn't about Flex or anyone else. You're making irrational comparisons to prove your point and it's not going to work. It's about Ronnie, Dorian and Haney. And of those three. Yates isn't coming out at the top. He has the least amount of Mr. Os AND he got beat by Haney. I'm perfectly fine with applying that logic to Ronnie also which would put Haney as #1. (He is). Or we can take them at their best and apply the rules and Ronnie would win. No matter how you turn it, Dorian doesn't end up on top. Outside of this website and in Bodybuilding circles, Ronnie is considered the best all time...Not Dorian. (Only in your world).
I have a pic of Dorian ready here but I won't post it. I love you and Dorian too much! ;-)
Yeah Buddy ;D
I have a pic of Dorian ready here but I won't post it. I love you and Dorian too much! ;-)
You're right it's NOT about Flex , it's about Ronnie and how he did against Flex who Dorian dominated. Ronnie had his hands full with a subpar Flex at his BEST mind you , to claim he could beat Dorian knowing this is being willfully ignorant
Haney the sport flew by him in 1992 he wouldn't beat Dorian , Flex or Ronnie I would say a prime Levrone would beat him too
Ronnie 1998 doesn't touch Dorian in the IFBB judging criteria
Does he have more muscular bulk than Dorian? NO 257lbs compared to Ronnie's 249
He is harder or drier than Dorian? NO although is all-time best still NOT in Dorian's league
Does he have better balance & Proportion than Dorian? NO
If he a better poser? NO
Ronnie has his advantages over Dorian for sure but Ronnie just wouldn't beat him , and Ronnie said as much multiple times ;D
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!! This is another reason why Haney is the best all time. Unlike Dorian and Ronnie. Haney didn't end up a mangled mess in the end and went out on top looking his best. Haney was living art! No homo. and LOLOL @ Big Bubba Ronnie.
LMAO there is NOT a Dorian picture you could post that I haven't seen already ( no homo )
schmoing in some more pics (no homo)
Yeah Buddy ;D
Haney dominated his era, in a couple of Olympias he had one call out in prejudging.wow you are a dumb fuck, really" that is why he lost rounds to labrada and Yates right Einstein.
Total domination.
The taper on Haney was absolutely sickening. Look at this! This is insane!Agreed Uncle wiggs, my Hebrews brotha from anotha motha. Fucking fuck those turnip looking abominations called modern quad.
And no big stupid legs that are non-functional.
Although Ronnie is only five years older than Lee he is two generations apart.wow, that is bizarre :o
People forget how young Lee was during his Olympic reign, 24-30 years old. Ronnie was 34 when he won his first Olympia.
Although Ronnie is only five years older than Lee he is two generations apart.
People forget how young Lee was during his Olympic reign, 24-30 years old. Ronnie was 34 when he won his first Olympia.
I'm a bit biased, but all things being equal: food, drugs, training...
Haney would beat anyone from any era. And he'd remain humble, approachable, and down to earth in the process.
The taper on Haney was absolutely sickening. Look at this! This is insane!
And no big stupid legs that are non-functional.
Was that the '83 or the '84 Mr. Olympia competition?
I think you meant Lee five years older than Ronnie but yes you are correct about totally different eras and drugs.
Impossible to compare Haney and Yates. Lee without any doubt responded better to AAS then Dorian, but we'll never know how his liver would have handled big doses of gh. He sure didn't care to know, since he accomplished everything a bodybuilder can possibly wish to accomplish.
By going from era into another, we're talking about completely different genetic requirements.
Yates and Haney were both king in their own era, and I feel comfortable to suppose that Dorian would have been second to Lee in Lee's era, and that Lee would have been second to Dorian if he had continued (he was only 32 when he retired).
Prime Dorian (= early Dorian) was better then Lee and that's only logical: with gh you can go way further then with aas alone. But Lee reigned for 8 years straight without his physique deteriorating.
With Lee's genetically tiny waist, if he started using gh in the amounts that pros where using in the Dorian era he would have easily carried another 25lbs of muscle with not that much effect on his waist line. Not as much as it effected Dorian. I am a big fan of Dorian but genetically he was vastly inferior to Haney.
All else being equal, Lee would win every time. Every damn time.
With Lee's genetically tiny waist, if he started using gh in the amounts that pros where using in the Dorian era he would have easily carried another 25lbs of muscle with not that much effect on his waist line. Not as much as it effected Dorian. I am a big fan of Dorian but genetically he was vastly inferior to Haney.
All else being equal, Lee would win every time. Every damn time.
To say Lee had an advantage in genetics to Dorian is one thing , to claim Dorian was vastly inferior is just nonsense. Why? you offer no explanation how he is ' vastly inferior ' just an assertion.Haney overall the best ever before the bloated waists which have ruined Bodybuilding.
Contrary to the cliched response Dorian's genetics were exceptional and just because he didn't have a light frame like Haney or Flex doesn't mean he wasn't every bit as special in terms of genetics , they had their advantage as did Dorian
Genetically did Lee Haney have vastly superior balance & proportion compared to Yates? NO. How about density & dryness? NO. The rub against Haney was he was all torso , Great back & pecs , delts and tiny midsection , his arms lagged behind and his legs were way behind. Haney has his advantages for sure but as far as genetics are concerned he's no more special than Dorian
Haney overall the best ever before the bloated waists which have ruined Bodybuilding.
I feel another Ronnie vs Dorian conversation coming on between ND and Hulkster one of the longest threads ever.
Nah like Ronnie's he's done lol;D
Lol, this is the epitome of the greatest BB ever according to ND ::) ::) ::) ::)
Ronnie still smokes him. Haney too. In fact, I think Jay is better in 2009 shape. Dorian's legs are flat. His waist is good in that pic, but the amount of muscle on Ronnie smokes him.jay has never come near Yates. He was still soft wna dwatery in 09... his quads were diced, but his back still looked like a marshmellow. Jays conditioning was good when he was smaller, but he never brought tje size/conditioning combo to take on Yates.
However, the pic you picked was not Dorian's best to be fair. I think this is his finest and defintely top three ever ;). ND gotta give it to you...you stick to your guns. I love Dorian, but think Ronnie took the sport to another level. My opinion as you have yours.
ND is the funniest human on earth. I have never seen someone contradict themselves to the point you have to throw up your hands in disbelief, and he believes he's actually winning arguments.
ND never lost an argument .He always has the pics to backup his arguments.
To say Lee had an advantage in genetics to Dorian is one thing , to claim Dorian was vastly inferior is just nonsense. Why? you offer no explanation how he is ' vastly inferior ' just an assertion.
Contrary to the cliched response Dorian's genetics were exceptional and just because he didn't have a light frame like Haney or Flex doesn't mean he wasn't every bit as special in terms of genetics , they had their advantage as did Dorian
Genetically did Lee Haney have vastly superior balance & proportion compared to Yates? NO. How about density & dryness? NO. The rub against Haney was he was all torso , Great back & pecs , delts and tiny midsection , his arms lagged behind and his legs were way behind. Haney has his advantages for sure but as far as genetics are concerned he's no more special than Dorian
He always has the pics to backup his arguments.
1995 Dorian vs. 1999 Ronnie
1995 Dorian vs. 1999 RonnieOne of the better comparisons ive seen. .. but Ronnies waist almost looks the same size as Dorians? His waist was considerably smaller, I believe
Better than Ronnie, better than Dorian and better than Arnold..."small arms" and all
8x Mr. O.....No losses as Mr. O and went out on top and still healthy today. Great spokesman for bodybuilding and wonderful family man.
1995 Dorian vs. 1999 Ronnie
I agree , when it comes to arguments no one in the world is better than ND.ND has mags from 1980's and the scanner has been upgraded, Hulkster will not agree.
Ronnie's calves the same size as Dorians? waist & hips? joints? all the same size ? that's not reality
Once again ND you look the fool. The reality is that Ronnie was over 30 pounds heavier than Yates at his largest. Ronnies thighs, chest, arms, and shoulders were definitely bigger. No question. Only Dorian nuthuggers would think differently. Backs were probably nearly even as far as size, although I believe 2003 Coleman had the biggest and thickest back ever. Yates 1993 may have had the most detailed, thick back ever. I concur with you thinking Dorian's calves were light years ahead Ronnie. The masses agree that is because of their diamond like shape and detail. Size wise, Ronnie's calves were huge. I was at the 2005 and 2007 Mr. Olympias. I saw the man from twenty feet away. He is ginormous all over. However, his calves look like a mass of hung meat. Huge but not very aesthetic. Thus, the circumferential length may be equivalent. However, in layman speak that you would understand, a Ferrari can be the same length as Ford. Hope that help clarify for you (the greatest debater ever ::) ::) ::)).Hello pot, meet kettle.
Once again ND you look the fool. The reality is that Ronnie was over 30 pounds heavier than Yates at his largest. Ronnies thighs, chest, arms, and shoulders were definitely bigger. No question. Only Dorian nuthuggers would think differently. Backs were probably nearly even as far as size, although I believe 2003 Coleman had the biggest and thickest back ever. Yates 1993 may have had the most detailed, thick back ever. I concur with you thinking Dorian's calves were light years ahead Ronnie. The masses agree that is because of their diamond like shape and detail. Size wise, Ronnie's calves were huge. I was at the 2005 and 2007 Mr. Olympias. I saw the man from twenty feet away. He is ginormous all over. However, his calves look like a mass of hung meat. Huge but not very aesthetic. Thus, the circumferential length may be equivalent. However, in layman speak that you would understand, a Ferrari can be the same length as Ford. Hope that help clarify for you (the greatest debater ever ::) ::) ::)).
Once again ND you look the fool.
The reality is that Ronnie was over 30 pounds heavier than Yates at his largest. Ronnies thighs, chest, arms, and shoulders were definitely bigger. No question
No question. Only Dorian nuthuggers would think differently.
Backs were probably nearly even as far as size, although I believe 2003 Coleman had the biggest and thickest back ever.
. I concur with you thinking Dorian's calves were light years ahead Ronnie. The masses agree that is because of their diamond like shape and detail. Size wise, Ronnie's calves were huge. I was at the 2005 and 2007 Mr. Olympias. I saw the man from twenty feet away. He is ginormous all over. However, his calves look like a mass of hung meat
However, in layman speak that you would understand, a Ferrari can be the same length as Ford. Hope that help clarify for you (the greatest debater ever ::) ::) ::)).
I thought this was a thread about Lee Haney?
So why do we debate undebatable things like Dorian's calves and back?
I thought this was a thread about Lee Haney?
So why do we debate undebatable things like Dorian's calves and back?
Ronnie's calves the same size as Dorians? waist & hips? joints? all the same size ? that's not reality
It's not my comparison. I just found it. Don't kill the messenger lol.Didn't figure it was yours, not your usual level of quality.
Because ND brings his illogical drivel to any thread that anyone professions other than Dorian to be the greatest. I don't mind, it's not like he's proving his point. lol
I don't think Dorian is the greatest bodybuilder of all time , I've never claimed that. I do think Dorian would beat anyone before or after him in a contest at their respective bests.And Basile is still mad at Arnold for placing him last.
Ronnie technically is the Greatest Bodybuilder of all time , he has the most careers wins and tied Haney for most Olympia wins. A strong cased could be made for Haney & Arnold being the greatest ever and I tend to agree with Arnold , the guy promoted bodybuilding like no one before or since , retired with six wins because he got bored and wanted to pursue Hollywood , came back and won again , Arnold could have won the Olympia from 1970-1984 if he wanted to Haney would have been his first real challenge , he's a 5 time Mr Universe winner etc
Don't single me out and not say anything about the Coleman fan boys , lets not be hypocritical ;)
i agree but yates in 92 was still not enough to beat haney at his best.. yates was only 3 pounds heavier in 92 than 91..
sure yates 93 was something else and i dont think haney could play the "extra" mass game in a good way as yates.. haney's great back was still kinda soft even at his very best under 250 lbs so if he had added more weigh i think he would have killed his condition..
And Basile is still mad at Arnold for placing him last.
LMAO he's an old bitter manTrue. Arnold is still the King he could have won the O 10 more years prime genetics and mind a lethal combination.
Arnold could have been 14 time Mr Olympia if he wanted , who competing would have stopped him besides Haney? Franco in 76/81? ::) Zane 77-79? ::) Dickerson in 82? ::) Samir in 83? ::) all people Arnold trampled
People say Haney retired to young at 31? Arnold was 28 I don't think we seen his full potential realized , I remember his commenting on the 80 Olympia that there was a different emphasis on conditioning being sharper as the abs and obliques etc , Arnold had come areas he could have improved on
He is ginormous all over. However, his calves look like a mass of hung meat. Huge but not very aesthetic. Thus, the circumferential length may be equivalent. However, in layman speak that you would understand, a Ferrari can be the same length as Ford. Hope that help clarify for you (the greatest debater ever ::) ::) ::)).
LMAO he's an old bitter man
Arnold could have been 14 time Mr Olympia if he wanted , who competing would have stopped him besides Haney? Franco in 76/81? ::) Zane 77-79? ::) Dickerson in 82? ::) Samir in 83? ::) all people Arnold trampled
People say Haney retired to young at 31? Arnold was 28 I don't think we seen his full potential realized , I remember his commenting on the 80 Olympia that there was a different emphasis on conditioning being sharper as the abs and obliques etc , Arnold had come areas he could have improved on
Haney actually did competed at 257lbs in Italy in 89 and admittedly said he was to heavy and his conditioning was off , so this theory that Haney could come in heavier and somehow suffer no ill effect isn't really accurate
Not if he had access to the products in the Yates/Coleman era.
And you know he didn't how? When Dorian came in 17lbs heavier in 93 they asked him if that was the first time he had taken GH and he said NO so Haney was 91 so it's not like GH was first introduced in 92 , I mean they did compete in the same era
If Haney competed much heavier he has a similar structure like Coleman , short torso long legs , his gut would have been like Ronnie's and his conditioning wasn't improving
I do not believe that he was using high dose hgh (15-20ius/day) and insulin during his reign. Do you? Of course I cannot prove that he was using anything at all and neither can you.
Haney does not have a structure like Coleman. I simply disagree with you. His waist was much smaller and had much better calves and ab structure. He also had wider clavicle width. Coleman wasn't really that wide structurally. Haney had a much better V taper.
Saying he would have a gut like Coleman, or even Dorian later in his career for that matter, is pure speculation on your part. Milos brought insulin into the sport and has used it, not abused it, ever since and he has no gut.
I do not believe that he was using high dose hgh (15-20ius/day) and insulin during his reign. Do you? Of course I cannot prove that he was using anything at all and neither can you.
Haney does not have a structure like Coleman. I simply disagree with you. His waist was much smaller and had much better calves and ab structure. He also had wider clavicle width. Coleman wasn't really that wide structurally. Haney had a much better V taper.
Saying he would have a gut like Coleman, or even Dorian later in his career for that matter, is pure speculation on your part. Milos brought insulin into the sport and has used it, not abused it, ever since and he has no gut.
I do not believe that he was using high dose hgh (15-20ius/day) and insulin during his reign. Do you? Of course I cannot prove that he was using anything at all and neither can you.Its just as much speculation to insinuate that Haney would see any where near the kind of gains that Dorian or Ronnie did from GH/slin/whatever
Haney does not have a structure like Coleman. I simply disagree with you. His waist was much smaller and had much better calves and ab structure. He also had wider clavicle width. Coleman wasn't really that wide structurally. Haney had a much better V taper.
Saying he would have a gut like Coleman, or even Dorian later in his career for that matter, is pure speculation on your part. Milos brought insulin into the sport and has used it, not abused it, ever since and he has no gut.
Its just as much speculation to insinuate that Haney would see any where near the kind of gains that Dorian or Ronnie did from GH/slin/whatever
you cant say that he would have looked as good or better if only he was taking GH/Slin like the others but then turn around and say its speculation if someone else points out the obvious flip side of the effects of your very argument.
I dont. even know what Is being argured anymore.
Lee Haney was the last Mr. O before bodybuilding went completely to shit. Dorian was the beginning of the end. Ronnie finished it off. Now it's just gut building. RIP. Long live Lee!
Pros were using insulin in the late 80’s.
I know someone who learnt how to use from Gary Strydom in 1989.
My recollection was Tim Belknap brought insulin use into BBing.
Pros were using insulin in the late 80’s.
I know someone who learnt how to use from Gary Strydom in 1989.
Nope. I just simply disagree with that one.Disagree all you want but I saw the Strydom GH/insulin protocol written down in 1989.
Disagree all you want but I saw the Strydom GH/insulin protocol written down in 1989.
Gary put a LOT of size on between 1988 and 1990 too.
True. Arnold is still the King he could have won the O 10 more years prime genetics and mind a lethal combination.
True, if entered it until 37 years old imagine a 17 time Mr O.
I will go as far to say that Arnold was the only Mr.Olympia that never reached his full potential!! he wanted out of bodybuilding by age 27 (1974 ) he would have been even better had he no retire in 75.... Imagine what his physique would have been in his early to mid 30's competing non stop... that's like 12 /15 tittles right there !!!!
Just think Ronnie won his first one at age 34 !
WoooSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH
One thing that stands out about Haney; he recieved praise from Arnold, Yates, and Ronnie. 3 different Mr Olympia champions from 3 different era's.Lee Haney = a great person met him a few times. ( no homo). Out of Spartanburg SC. A judge at one of my BB contests.
Arnold said (back in 1991) that at first, he did not like the idea that Haney broke his Olympia record. But after Arnold thought about it, he said that he felt great about it because Lee was such a great person, role model, and representitive of the sport. Arnold was quick to hand out compliments to Haney.
Several years later Arnold dissed Yates saying that Dorian was not a great representive for the sport.
because yates used his version of mentzer workouts and dorian was never a big fan of the oak either . arnold lacked thighs and forearms . haney lacked calves and a bit of arms . lee more dense . ...
haney's calves were good for a black man and were ok in general..True, he is a class dude met him more than once very humble and cares about people overall attitude and physique maybe the best ever if you consider those factors.
i didnt say lee was not nice . but his calves were not as good as were those of many others like vince taylor or even sergio. . in bodybuilding calves were a prime muscle for leg impact . thighs are less important . but they forgot this a bit .True on calves, how did Chris Dickerson win Mr O with no upper body great calves. If close the judges will go with calf development or any other small thing that will give someone the edge in the decision.