Tennessee atheists win right to distribute literature after schools give Bibles

[Dos Equis]

At his home, or away from the job, feel free. But as the principal of the school, when acting as an official from the school, he needs to leave his personal beliefs regarding religion out of it.   

Or on the job.  This was not an attempt to have the government establish a church or convert people, proselytize, etc.  He doesn't have to check his personal beliefs at the door.  Hypersensitive people need to get over it already, especially those who don't even believe in God. 

[Dos Equis]

Guarantee you had he said "Praise Allah" there would be an uproar from the community. It has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with separating church and state

Except that's not what he said.  This doesn't have anything to do with separation of church and state.  He wasn't trying to establish a church.  It's about freedom of expression.

[Agnostic007]

Except that's not what he said.  This doesn't have anything to do with separation of church and state.  He wasn't trying to establish a church.  It's about freedom of expression.

We'll have to disagree. I think a person in a place of authority over people, especially kids, but it could apply to an Army General, should avoid bringing THEIR personal views of religion into their work. This would apply to Wiccans, Sikh, Buddhist, Christians, and even an atheist that had a signature block that said something about their being no gods. Why can't people just focus on work?   

[Dos Equis]

We'll have to disagree. I think a person in a place of authority over people, especially kids, but it could apply to an Army General, should avoid bringing THEIR personal views of religion into their work. This would apply to Wiccans, Sikh, Buddhist, Christians, and even an atheist that had a signature block that said something about their being no gods. Why can't people just focus on work?   

Yes, we will have to disagree.  Why can't people respect differences?  I never get offended by people expressing themselves, even if they mention things I don't believe in.  It's really not that hard.  The First Amendment does not require people to cleanse their speech of all forms of religious expression. 

[Agnostic007]

Yes, we will have to disagree.  Why can't people respect differences?  I never get offended by people expressing themselves, even if they mention things I don't believe in.  It's really not that hard.  The First Amendment does not require people to cleanse their speech of all forms of religious expression. 

I remember having a Church of Christ member as a teacher in 4th grade. She wouldn't hesitate to tell the class that if you aren't baptized in water you won't go to heaven. That was her opinion. Do you think she has the right to freely express her opinion to the class?

[Dos Equis]

I remember having a Church of Christ member as a teacher in 4th grade. She wouldn't hesitate to tell the class that if you aren't baptized in water you won't go to heaven. That was her opinion. Do you think she has the right to freely express her opinion to the class?

If that was a public school, then no I don't think that was appropriate at all.   

[Agnostic007]

If that was a public school, then no I don't think that was appropriate at all.   

But it was her opinion and you argued a person doesn't have to leave their beliefs in the parking lot when at work...

[Dos Equis]

But it was her opinion and you argued a person doesn't have to leave their beliefs in the parking lot when at work...

That is proselytizing, which I never endorsed.  Not a good comparison.  And you're trying to divert attention away from the comments made by the principal. 

[Agnostic007]

That is proselytizing, which I never endorsed.  Not a good comparison.  And you're trying to divert attention away from the comments made by the principal. 

I think I'm trying to point out the inherent danger in people in power bringing their personal religious beliefs into their job. No need. The danger far outweighs the possible benefits whatever that is

[Dos Equis]

I think I'm trying to point out the inherent danger in people in power bringing their personal religious beliefs into their job. No need. The danger far outweighs the possible benefits whatever that is

Maybe that is your intent, although it sounds like you are trying to say the public sector must be free of all religious expression.  That simply isn't accurate.  I don't see anything dangerous at all with what the principal said. 

[Agnostic007]

Maybe that is your intent, although it sounds like you are trying to say the public sector must be free of all religious expression.  That simply isn't accurate.  I don't see anything dangerous at all with what the principal said. 

I divide public sector and government sector in this regard. The CEO of Chik Filet can say anything he wants about his personal belief in a god or gods. I don't believe a government official, operating in a government capacity, should.

[Dos Equis]

I divide public sector and government sector in this regard. The CEO of Chik Filet can say anything he wants about his personal belief in a god or gods. I don't believe a government official, operating in a government capacity, should.

I was using public sector synonymously with the government.  Your position is still an overstatement.  The First Amendment does not require a government official to avoid all forms of religious expression. 

One of the things that always puzzles me is how atheists get offended by a reference to something they don't believe exists. 

[Agnostic007]

I was using public sector synonymously with the government.  Your position is still an overstatement.  The First Amendment does not require a government official to avoid all forms of religious expression. 

One of the things that always puzzles me is how atheists get offended by a reference to something they don't believe exists. 

I'll try to explain it to you....

I can't speak for all non believers but I can speak for myself and I get a general feel from others I know that this is the issue;

We would be perfectly happy to let people believe whatever they want. Elves, Leprechauns, Gods, Demons, Ghosts, Angels, Psychics etc etc. The list is probably endless. However we oppose people who do believe in those things forcing those personal beliefs on others. Simple as that. Whether it's in the form of a religious ceremonial prayer before a baseball game, promotion ceremony or council meeting to the other many ways they find to expose non believers to their belief.

The concern is, left unchecked, these people historically have been known to grow in confidence when others don't speak up, and before long they're burning witches, creating crusades and "saving" people who otherwise are just fine as they were. So reluctantly, the non believers have to be the bad guys and say "Hey Billy Bob, not everyone believes like you do, so put the torch down before you hurt someone"

[Agnostic007]

Would you find it appropriate for a high school principal to have a signature block with "Belief in a God or Gods is silly" under his name and title?

[Dos Equis]

I'll try to explain it to you....

I can't speak for all non believers but I can speak for myself and I get a general feel from others I know that this is the issue;

We would be perfectly happy to let people believe whatever they want. Elves, Leprechauns, Gods, Demons, Ghosts, Angels, Psychics etc etc. The list is probably endless. However we oppose people who do believe in those things forcing those personal beliefs on others. Simple as that. Whether it's in the form of a religious ceremonial prayer before a baseball game, promotion ceremony or council meeting to the other many ways they find to expose non believers to their belief.

The concern is, left unchecked, these people historically have been known to grow in confidence when others don't speak up, and before long they're burning witches, creating crusades and "saving" people who otherwise are just fine as they were. So reluctantly, the non believers have to be the bad guys and say "Hey Billy Bob, not everyone believes like you do, so put the torch down before you hurt someone"

The problem with this is nobody is forcing their beliefs on you when they simply express those beliefs.  Expression does not always equal proselytizing or coercion.  For example, having to stand while others observe a moment of silence or prayer is absolutely harmless, if we're talking about adults.  Just keep your eyes open.  How hard is that?  And no disrespect intended to you, but I really could care less if people get offended by others who make references to their faith, God, Mohammed, Buddha, etc.  

You have a very thin-skinned approach to this subject.  Using your line of thinking, it would be unconstitutional for the president to say "God Bless America" at the end of every State of the Union Speech, which they all do.  Why do they say this?  Because the overwhelming majority of the country believes in God and that belief is part of the foundation of our country.  Those expressions are a different universe from burning witches, crusades, establishing a national church, etc.  

Remember that the First Amendment not only prohibits our government from establishing a church, it also provides for the free exercise of religion (or no religion) and freedom of expression, especially expression that might offend people.    

[Dos Equis]

Would you find it appropriate for a high school principal to have a signature block with "Belief in a God or Gods is silly" under his name and title?

I think that kind of signature block, or one that says "Belief in God is awesome" would be pretty dumb and inappropriate.   

[Agnostic007]

I think that kind of signature block, or one that says "Belief in God is awesome" would be pretty dumb and inappropriate.   

Yet "God Bless You" automatically infers a belief in God for the Principal. In a school environment where kids are there to learn and can be influenced by people in authority, it doesn't belong. Leave it out. Let them figure it out at home, church or other private sector environments.

[Dos Equis]

Yet "God Bless You" automatically infers a belief in God for the Principal. In a school environment where kids are there to learn and can be influenced by people in authority, it doesn't belong. Leave it out. Let them figure it out at home, church or other private sector environments.

Meh.  Or people can just build a bridge and get over it.  Or more accurately, the ACLU. 

[Agnostic007]

The problem with this is nobody is forcing their beliefs on you when they simply express those beliefs.  Expression does not always equal proselytizing or coercion.  For example, having to stand while others observe a moment of silence or prayer is absolutely harmless, if we're talking about adults.  Just keep your eyes open.  How hard is that?  And no disrespect intended to you, but I really could care less if people get offended by others who make references to their faith, God, Mohammed, Buddha, etc.  

You have a very thin-skinned approach to this subject.  Using your line of thinking, it would be unconstitutional for the president to say "God Bless America" at the end of every State of the Union Speech, which they all do.  Why do they say this?  Because the overwhelming majority of the country believes in God and that belief is part of the foundation of our country.  Those expressions are a different universe from burning witches, crusades, establishing a national church, etc.  

Remember that the First Amendment not only prohibits our government from establishing a church, it also provides for the free exercise of religion (or no religion) and freedom of expression, especially expression that might offend people.    

They ARE forcing their religious ceremony on me.. sorry but I should be FREE from religious ceremony at a government event or a sporting event. This is where the Christians seem to be oblivious to their intrusion, and pose questions like "Why do non believers care what I believe of they don't believe in god"

[Dos Equis]

They ARE forcing their religious ceremony on me.. sorry but I should be FREE from religious ceremony at a government event or a sporting event. This is where the Christians seem to be oblivious to their intrusion, and pose questions like "Why do non believers care what I believe of they don't believe in god"

No they aren't.  You can leave.  You can sit there and be respectfully quiet.  You can go to the bathroom.  You can go buy snacks.  We have to protect people from government coercion.  What we don't have to do is unnecessarily cater to a handful of hypersensitive people. 

I've said this several times on the board, but one of my business partners brought his Buddhist priest to the office to have a prayer and blessing.  I participated.  Didn't offend me at all. 

The problem with anti-religious extremists is they want to censor all forms of religious expression.  That's not the world we live in. 

[Agnostic007]

No they aren't.  You can leave.  You can sit there and be respectfully quiet.  You can go to the bathroom.  You can go buy snacks.  We have to protect people from government coercion.  What we don't have to do is unnecessarily cater to a handful of hypersensitive people. 

I've said this several times on the board, but one of my business partners brought his Buddhist priest to the office to have a prayer and blessing.  I participated.  Didn't offend me at all. 

The problem with anti-religious extremists is they want to censor all forms of religious expression.  That's not the world we live in. 

Are you Christian?

[TuHolmes]

No they aren't.  You can leave.  You can sit there and be respectfully quiet.  You can go to the bathroom.  You can go buy snacks.  We have to protect people from government coercion.  What we don't have to do is unnecessarily cater to a handful of hypersensitive people.  

I've said this several times on the board, but one of my business partners brought his Buddhist priest to the office to have a prayer and blessing.  I participated.  Didn't offend me at all.  

The problem with anti-religious extremists is they want to censor all forms of religious expression.  That's not the world we live in.  

What if they decided to pray towards mecca during the game? Would that be ok?

What if they decided to play one of these songs during the or before the game?

http://www.thetoptens.com/most-satanic-songs/

Would that be ok?

I mean, it's not your religion, but it's a religion.

[Dos Equis]

Are you Christian?

Yep.  Also a firm believer in church-state separation. 

[Dos Equis]

What if they decided to pray towards mecca during the game? Would that be ok?

What if they decided to play one of these songs during the or before the game?

http://www.thetoptens.com/most-satanic-songs/

Would that be ok?

I mean, it's not your religion, but it's a religion.

Will never happen, but I really wouldn't care if that's what people wanted to do.  Depending on what it was, I'd probably go get my garlic fries early instead of waiting till halftime like I normally do.  I certainly would not be running to the ACLU, filing lawsuits, claiming I suffered emotional distress, etc.

[TuHolmes]

Will never happen, but I really wouldn't care if that's what people wanted to do.  Depending on what it was, I'd probably go get my garlic fries early instead of waiting till halftime like I normally do.  I certainly would not be running to the ACLU, filing lawsuits, claiming I suffered emotional distress, etc.

You're right, it won't because this country is primarily Christian, but I have a funny feeling you're lying saying that you wouldn't care.

You would. To say otherwise is just being disingenuous. You don't want to hear people praising satan or any other god and you know it.

You would care.