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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: The Coach on January 22, 2009, 08:37:17 AM
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This is NOT good, not even two days in office and he want to put our security at risk. We're f**ked.
WASHINGTON -- President Obama, putting his executive pen in his left hand to overrule eight years of Bush administration policy, signed "several" executive orders Thursday, including ones affecting national security and abortion.
The national security orders mandate that interrogation techniques in the Army Field Manual be used by all intelligence and law enforcement services; call for a task force to look at closing the detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, within the year; and order a strategy be developed for handling detainees in the future. The presidential directive also orders a stay in the case of Ali Al-Marri, the only person being held by the military as an enemy combatant on U.S. soil.
The executive order says everyone in custody should be questioned under the Army Field Manual, which is intended for honorable combatants, meaning POWs in a military conflict. The rule would prevent trained interrogators at the CIA from using lawful interrogation techniques against terrorists who have been trained to withstand Army Field Manual techniques.
According to sources in the law enforcement community, the executive order on interrogation does not declare "enhanced interrogation techniques" to be torture; the order is silent on that.
"This allows for a lot of flexibility, a lot of wiggle room," said one source.
While the administration has insisted on one interrogation standard, one source says they are thinking about assembling a group within the next 60 days to make recommendations on a set of separate techniques for the intelligence community to use.
White House counsel Greg Craig acknowledged late Wednesday that the administration will have to establish a panel to make recommendations to address intelligence community concerns.
Separately, according to a draft of the Guantanamo order, "the prompt disposition" of detainee cases should "precede" the closure of the Guantanamo Bay prison. Whether that means the detainees have to be tried if possible before the closure is still unclear.
The draft also appears to indicate that Obama will leave open a back door in the order ending the military tribunals.
Obama has said he wants to end the military commissions process but does not have anything to replace it. So, sources say, the administration will seek recommendations within the next six or seven months on how to try them.
Administration officials indicated they do not want detainees outside of the U.S. to get habeas corpus rights or rights similar to those enjoyed by U.S. citizens. The Obama administration will likely go to Congress for what it wants to accomplish.
The order will direct that all information regarding the remaining 245 detainees be consolidated in a central repository and will create a panel to review those cases and split the detainees up into three categories.
Category one is comprised of the 70 detainees that President Bush sought to repatriate but couldn't because no country wants them, and they would likely be tortured at home. The Obama administration believes they can get foreign countries to take them.
Category two is the group of detainees that can be prosecuted under war crimes in Article III courts — federal courts designed to address cases that involve citizens of other countries — or tried in modified military commissions. This includes Sept. 11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. The administration would seek a stay on habeas petitions in Article III courts and continuances on the ongoing military commissions.
Category three is made up of detainees who can't be released and can't be tried. The thought is to create a panel, which could turn into a national security court, to handle these future highest-value detainees to determine prospective policy since terrorists like Al Qaeda chief Usama bin Laden will continue to be caught.
As for Al-Marri, whose case is before the Supreme Court, the intent is to try to make sure the detainee is tried according to the same rules as others who will be subject to the new orders.
Al-Marri was arrested in Peoria, Ill., a couple of months after the Sept. 11 attacks and is accused of being an al Qaeda operative sent to the United States on Sept. 10, 2001, to take part in another attack.
In 2003, President Bush signed an executive order labeling Al-Marri an "enemy combatant" and removing him from civilian custody. The order made the Defense Department responsible for Al-Marri who has been kept in isolation at the Navy brig in Charleston, S.C. His lawyers argue that the president has no "inherent authority" to hold him without charge for an unlimited time.
Separately, the administration issued a reversal of a ban on
federal funding for non-governmental organizations working outside the U.S. that offer abortions or abortion counseling.
Obama signed the executive order on the 36th anniversary of the landmark Roe v. Wade Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion in all 50 states.
FOX News' Jim Angle, Major Garrett, Chad Pergram, Lee Ross and Mike Levine contributed to this report.
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Ok, the EO is troubling itslef...but if u look deeper they appear to be trying to find a separate set of rules for the Intell folks....this is a good thing. But again look deeper...once again Barry O is trying to be all things to all people. This appeases the left wing nutbags but basically appears to allow the Intel folks to continue to do what they do. This may work out in our favor on this issue, but again, Barry can't make up his mind.
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Why do people who fight like bitches and dedicate their lifes work to being assassins of the innocent have any rights?
Some of you leftists, answer me this. Why should these cowards have any rights?
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Why do people who fight like bitches and dedicate their lifes work to being assassins of the innocent have any rights?
Some of you leftists, answer me this. Why should these cowards have any rights?
b/c apparently to them we have an obligation to stand on a moral high ground.
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Obama is a fucking idiot. This fucking issues is hardly pressing. We are the verge of complete economic chaos and nationwide shutdown and this assfuck negro is worrying about goddamn abortion, Gitmo prisons, and weatherizing homes. What a stupid fuck!
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Why do people who fight like bitches and dedicate their lifes work to being assassins of the innocent have any rights?
Some of you leftists, answer me this. Why should these cowards have any rights?
...wasn't one of the guys arrested when he was 11 years old?
Imagine that for a second... forget you're a conservative and actually think for a few moments.
US warplanes carpet bomb an Afghan mountain valley, killing an extended family of goat herders who never even heard the name Osama bin Laden. The surviving 11 year old grabs his dead father's AK 47 and attempts to round up some of the shell shocked goats.
American troops pour into the valley... the kids thinks they must be Russians re-invading so he fires his clip of bullets, hitting no one.
The American soldiers, none of whom speak Arabic, capture the kid... beat the shit out of him when he can't answer questions asked in English, then ship him off to Guantanamo.
There he spends seven years being regularly beaten, raped, tortured, waterboarded, and starved. The interrogators use truth drugs on him, deprive him of sleep and sexually molest him (yes, this is happening).
After a couple of years the kid attempts suicide (90% of Gitmo detainees have tried), but survives till 2009.
Now that a new administration learns there is absolutely no evidence; that no charges can pressed against the young man, his torture routine is suspended.
But you guys think THIS small act of Christian mercy is objectionable...?
Morons.
The Luke
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...wasn't one of the guys arrested when he was 11 years old?
Imagine that for a second... forget you're a conservative and actually think for a few moments.
US warplanes carpet bomb an Afghan mountain valley, killing an extended family of goat herders who never even heard the name Osama bin Laden. The surviving 11 year old grabs his dead father's AK 47 and attempts to round up some of the shell shocked goats.
American troops pour into the valley... the kids thinks they must be Russians re-invading so he fires his clip of bullets, hitting no one.
The American soldiers, none of whom speak Arabic, capture the kid... beat the shit out of him when he can't answer questions asked in English, then ship him off to Guantanamo.
There he spends seven years being regularly beaten, raped, tortured, waterboarded, and starved. The interrogators use truth drugs on him, deprive him of sleep and sexually molest him (yes, this is happening).
After a couple of years the kid attempts suicide (90% of Gitmo detainees have tried), but survives till 2009.
Now that a new administration learns there is absolutely no evidence; that no charges can pressed against the young man, his torture routine is suspended.
But you guys think THIS small act of Christian mercy is objectionable...?
Morons.
The Luke
I suppose you have proof of this? plz provide it
russians are reinvading LOL this boy probably doesnt even know about russia if he is 11 all he knows is that the US is there...who else would be running around in UNIFORMS ya russia ::)
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I suppose you have proof of this? plz provide it
russians are reinvading LOL this boy probably doesnt even know about russia if he is 11 all he knows is that the US is there...who else would be running around in UNIFORMS ya russia ::)
...the Russians invaded Afghanistan in the 1980s.
Epic knowledge of contemporary history.
The Luke
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...the Russians invaded Afghanistan in the 1980s.
Epic knowledge of contemporary history.
The Luke
LOL I KNOW BRAIN CHILD seeing as the child wasnt alive in the 80's and that the US is currently in country who would you assume was running around in uniforms as a military action? HAHAHAH your answer is RUSSIA ::) LOL WOW :o hahahaha....again proof?
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LOL I KNOW BRAIN CHILD seeing as the child wasnt alive in the 80's and that the US is currently in country who would you assume was running around in uniforms as a military action? HAHAHAH your answer is RUSSIA ::) LOL WOW :o hahahaha....again proof?
Wouldn't the kids father have fought against the Russians as part of the Mujahadeen?
Wouldn't the kid assume that the troops weren't American..? Considering that American supported both the Mujahadeen and the Taliban...?
How you expect a goat herder in an illiterate country to be up to speed on international affairs is simply baffling.
Please stop owning yourself.
The Luke
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Wouldn't the kids father have fought against the Russians as part of the Mujahadeen?
Wouldn't the kid assume that the troops weren't American..? Considering that American supported both the Mujahadeen and the Taliban...?
How you expect a goat herder in an illiterate country to be up to speed on international affairs is simply baffling.
Please stop owning yourself.
The Luke
the idea that he would have no idea that US is in country performing military actions is as ignorant as the idea he would think it was RUSSIANS REINVADING LOL OMG hahahahah. You assume a lot of things i take it since you havent provided proof for anything youve said you are assuming those as well also you assume that his father fought the russians. Owning myself hahahaha you have got to be fuking kidding me LOL your assumption is this kid thought RUSSIA WAS REINVADING lol
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Epic lameness Luke.
If the kid was shooting at US military personnel, he should have been offed right then and there, who gives a shit WHY he was shooting at them.
Drug dealers shoot at cops every day, are you going to say they are just trying to protect their families and property too? Is that justified too?
Idiot.
And like Tony said, the kid wasn't alive, he wouldn't even know what a Russian looked like.
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And like Tony said, the kid wasn't alive, he wouldn't even know what a Russian looked like.
Moron.
Again, wouldn't his father and family members be Mujahadeen veterans?
If armed troops started marching into your neighborhood could YOU identify them by uniform?
Most of these mountain folk in Afghanistan haven't heard news of the outside world in twenty years... why shouldn't they shoot at the people carpet bombing them?
You guys are absolute Palins... militantly ignorant.
I'm going to predict right now that THE VAST MAJORITY of Gitmo detainees are released due to their being NO CASE AGAINST THEM.
If memory serves, only bin Laden's personal driver has been convicted so far. Epic efficiency. Some poor schmuck who took a job driving a CIA agent around Afghanistan is the only terror suspect jailed thus far... I hope you all feel safer now.
The Luke
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Moron.
Again, wouldn't his father and family members be Mujahadeen veterans?
If armed troops started marching into your neighborhood could YOU identify them by uniform?
Most of these mountain folk in Afghanistan haven't heard news of the outside world in twenty years... why shouldn't they shoot at the people carpet bombing them?
You guys are absolute Palins... militantly ignorant.
I'm going to predict right now that THE VAST MAJORITY of Gitmo detainees are released due to their being NO CASE AGAINST THEM.
If memory serves, only bin Laden's personal driver has been convicted so far. Epic efficiency. Some poor schmuck who took a job driving a CIA agent around Afghanistan is the only terror suspect jailed thus far... I hope you all feel safer now.
The Luke
your right he had no idea being on the ground there controlled by the taliban liberated by the US that anything was gonig on ::) ya b/c the US military never goes out on patrol or does missions of goodwill or meets with tribal leaders and such ::) IC IC you are so right its so clear he thought the russians where reinvading omg i cant believe i missed it...LOL
How old was his father?, what was his name? where did he live? you know nothing but assume everything and we are ignorant? LOL wow
again seeing AS YOU HAVENT GIVEN ANY PROOF ALL YOU HAVE IS ASSUMPTIONS.
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your right he had no idea being on the ground there controlled by the taliban liberated by the US that anything was gonig on ::) ya b/c the US military never goes out on patrol or does missions of goodwill or meets with tribal leaders and such ::) IC IC you are so right its so clear he thought the russians where reinvading omg i cant believe i missed it...LOL
How old was his father?, what was his name? where did he live? you know nothing but assume everything and we are ignorant? LOL wow
again seeing AS YOU HAVENT GIVEN ANY PROOF ALL YOU HAVE IS ASSUMPTIONS.
...you guys know that was a hypothetical situation I was talking about right? (Albeit not to far from the truth with regard to some of the Gitmo detainees).
You guys know that practically none of the guys in Gitmo are Al Quaeda right?
I was making the point that one of the guys has been in Gitmo since he was 11... if you don't see anything wrong with that then there is no hope for you.
The Luke
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there's was an 11 year boy at Gitmo?
Wow.
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Yes, an eleven year old boy, on his own in the mountains, having survived a carpet bombing is immediately going to think the Russians are coming ::) In all likely hood, he was that shit scared he would have shot at his own shadow. How do you come up with such crap?
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I say add a microscopic tracking device to their food and release them back in their country.
Then wait for them to seek out their higher up employers and send a missile to that location.
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I say add a microscopic tracking device to their food and release them back in their country.
Then wait for them to seek out their higher up employers and send a missile to that location.
...you'll just bomb a bunch of civilians.
I doubt any of the guys at Gitmo are actually Al Quaeda (if Al Quaeda actually exists at all).
Rumsfeld went on American television to tell the story of how he reviewed a satellite/aerial surveillance photograph which showed a very tall man dressed in white with a beard standing among a group of people. He ordered a carpet bombing of the particular Afghan valley, only to be bitterly disappointed when bin Laden released a new video only days later.
"Damn! We didn't get him" he said.
The interviewer commiserated with him.
NO ONE had the sense to point out that bin Laden's new videotape PROVED Rumsfeld had carpet bombed an innocent extended family somewhere in the Afghan foothills.
Isn't that a war crime?
The Luke
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...you guys know that was a hypothetical situation I was talking about right? (Albeit not to far from the truth with regard to some of the Gitmo detainees).
You guys know that practically none of the guys in Gitmo are Al Quaeda right?
I was making the point that one of the guys has been in Gitmo since he was 11... if you don't see anything wrong with that then there is no hope for you.
The Luke
hahaha so youve made up an elaborate situation to gain sympathy for a person and the best you could come up with is the RUSSIANS ARE REINVADING...LOL oh my goodness i havent laughed like this in a while.
What did the 11 yr old do to land in gitmo? seriously this time?
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Even if he killed some people i think they should have done something different with him. Like get him into some place here in the USA.
Putting him in gitmo is stupid
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hahaha so youve made up an elaborate situation to gain sympathy for a person and the best you could come up with is the RUSSIANS ARE REINVADING...LOL oh my goodness i havent laughed like this in a while.
What did the 11 yr old do to land in gitmo? seriously this time?
...no one knows. He's just another "enemy combatant". (Hence the scenario, I assumed reading comprehension would be such that readers would catch the posited hypothetical).
I know that an Iraqi doctor was arrested and tortured for years (sent to Egypt through "extraordinary rendition" protocols to have a confession beaten out of him) because he tried to tell the US soldiers rampaging through his house that he was an English speaking doctor working as a journalist.
The soldiers claimed he had bomb making equipment in his home... turned out to be a locked biscuit tin with some family photos inside. This travesty was caught on video.
Believe it guys... they didn't catch any Al Quaeda. Gitmo is a major fuck-up.
The Luke
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Even if he killed some people i think they should have done something different with him. Like get him into some place here in the USA.
Putting him in gitmo is stupid
why is that ozmo? b/c of his age, that doesnt make his actions any less deadly does it?
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why is that ozmo? b/c of his age, that doesnt make his actions any less deadly does it?
Yes, because of his age. Because he's a child. You don't stick him in some prison filled with terrorist. All you are doing is teaching him to continue to be one.
It's no different than what we would do if an 11 year in the USA killed someone. You don't stick that kid in San Quinton.
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...no one knows. He's just another "enemy combatant". (Hence the scenario, I assumed reading comprehension would be such that readers would catch the posited hypothetical).
I know that an Iraqi doctor was arrested and tortured for years (sent to Egypt through "extraordinary rendition" protocols to have a confession beaten out of him) because he tried to tell the US soldiers rampaging through his house that he was an English speaking doctor working as a journalist.
The soldiers claimed he had bomb making equipment in his home... turned out to be a locked biscuit tin with some family photos inside. This travesty was caught on video.
Believe it guys... they didn't catch any Al Quaeda. Gitmo is a major fuck-up.
The Luke
well then its fair to assume that he helped plan and carry out multiple attacks on us soldiers then i assume as well.
You assume that gitmo is only for al queda operatives but it houses many more than that. where is the video of this or link to it?
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well then its fair to assume that he helped plan and carry out multiple attacks on us soldiers then i assume as well.
...are you talking about the kid or the Iraqi doctor?
In neither case does your comment make sense.
The Luke
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Yes, because of his age. Because he's a child. You don't stick him in some prison filled with terrorist. All you are doing is teaching him to continue to be one.
It's no different than what we would do if an 11 year in the USA killed someone. You don't stick that kid in San Quinton.
this isnt the US ozmo if this had happened in the US then fine but this idea that ppl fighting a war against us deserve the same rights as our citizens here at home is just silly should we tax them too.
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...are you talking about the kid or the Iraqi doctor?
In neither case does your comment make sense.
The Luke
im talking about the kid, you thought it fair to assume your ignorant scenario so why cant i assume mine. Again proof for anything you have said in this thread would be appreciated.
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im talking about the kid, you thought it fair to assume your ignorant scenario so why cant i assume mine. Again proof for anything you have said in this thread would be appreciated.
...so the kid should be tortured the same way that Iraqi doctor was?
You guys don't have a clue what your so-called "War on Terror" entails.
Eventually almost all the guys at Gitmo are going to be declared innocent, released with huge payouts and war crimes trials at the Hague will ensue.
Why do you think Rumsfeld emigrated to Dubai? (No extradition treaty)
The Luke
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...so the kid should be tortured the same way that Iraqi doctor was?
You guys don't have a clue what your so-called "War on Terror" entails.
Eventually almost all the guys at Gitmo are going to be declared innocent, released with huge payouts and war crimes trials at the Hague will ensue.
Why do you think Rumsfeld emigrated to Dubai? (No extradition treaty)
The Luke
Any proof that either one has been tortured? or is that another the "russians are invading" comment?
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this isnt the US ozmo if this had happened in the US then fine but this idea that ppl fighting a war against us deserve the same rights as our citizens here at home is just silly should we tax them too.
It doesn't matter if he's a citizen or not. It about doing what's right, It's about doing what's humane. Citing citizenship is a candy ass excuse. Isn't our way of life good enough for everyone? Isn't what we preach something we want everyone to follow? Treating a child like an animal makes us hypocrites.
It's a fvcking child FFS, NOT OBL
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Any proof that either one has been tortured? or is that another the "russians are invading" comment?
...they made a movie/documentary about the Iraqi doctor. It's called "The prisoner: or how I planned to shoot Tony Blair".
Regarding the Russians comment... I've read that some of the mountain folk living in the more desolate corners of Afghanistan are shooting at American troops because they really do think the American soldiers are actually Russians.
There is too much "Prove it!" on this board from people who shouldn't be asking the better informed to educate them regarding information that is common knowledge.
The Luke
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It doesn't matter if he's a citizen or not. It about doing what's right, It's about doing what's humane. Citing citizenship is a candy ass excuse. Isn't our way of life good enough for everyone? Isn't what we preach something we want everyone to follow? Treating a child like an animal makes us hypocrites.
It's a fvcking child FFS, NOT OBL
our way of life is good enough for everyone but its not for everyone, killing isnt humane are you against that as well? if we caught obl you wouldnt want him killed? Fuck it if its keeping him captive that you dont like put 2 in his head and be done with it. Again im not worried about our moral high ground though its quite clear that we do hold it.
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...they made a movie/documentary about the Iraqi doctor. It's called "The prisoner: or how I planned to shoot Tony Blair".
Regarding the Russians comment... I've read that some of the mountain folk living in the more desolate corners of Afghanistan are shooting at American troops because they really do think the American soldiers are actually Russians.
There is too much "Prove it!" on this board from people who shouldn't be asking the better informed to educate them regarding information that is common knowledge.
The Luke
LOL so basically you have nothing? hahah better informed LOL maybe we should get hh6 our resident soldier to comment on this im sure his views oppose yours but your right your probably more informed then him
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LOL so basically you have nothing? hahah better informed LOL maybe we should get hh6 our resident soldier to comment on this im sure his views oppose yours but your right your probably more informed then him
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99372849
...this guy is not the only one.
The Luke
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our way of life is good enough for everyone but its not for everyone, killing isnt humane are you against that as well? if we caught obl you wouldnt want him killed? Fuck it if its keeping him captive that you dont like put 2 in his head and be done with it. Again im not worried about our moral high ground though its quite clear that we do hold it.
Again we are talking about an 11 year CHILD and I'm suggesting we practice what we preach WITH children.
OBL? Is he 11? ;)
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Here's another:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/14/youngdetainee-guantanamo.html?ref=rss
(read to the end of the article)
The Luke
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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99372849
...this guy is not the only one.
The Luke
thats fine if they find him innocent let him go, no where in there did it say he was tortured?
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thats fine if they find him innocent let him go, no where in there did it say he was tortured?
...so he'd be the one guy at Gitmo who hasn't been tortured?
What an ignorant fool you are... read the Red Cross report on Guantanamo before you embarrass yourself any further.
The Luke
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Again we are talking about an 11 year CHILD and I'm suggesting we practice what we preach WITH children.
OBL? Is he 11? ;)
what we preach is for ppl living within the US, even if it did happen in the US he would still be detained.
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...so he'd be the one guy at Gitmo who hasn't been tortured?
What an ignorant fool you are... read the Red Cross report on Guantanamo before you embarrass yourself any further.
The Luke
plz...everybody that passes through is subject to torture? dont embarrass yourself...LOL
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plz...everybody that passes through is subject to torture? dont embarrass yourself...LOL
Who should I believe... you, some Republican-true-believer internet tool who embarrasses himself with every post he makes on this board, or the Red Cross, who did an investigation into conditions at Gitmo and wrote up a report on the subject?
"tonymctones" you don't even have the decency to apologize when you accuse anyone better informed than you of being a liar when their statements of fact don't agree with your propaganda-informed prejudices. You are routinely owned on this board by your own insistence that links/sources be posted... when most of what you dismiss is merely common knowledge fact.
You, sir, have no credibility.
For the record, most Gitmo detainees have been severely tortured via the mechanism of "extraordinary rendition" BEFORE they ever arrive at Gitmo itself.
Considering the fact that the Red Cross has concluded the very living conditions at Gitmo constitute torture, and the hundreds of "enemy combatants" who have been released thus far due to their being found completely innocent: actual legal findings of innocence, have all claimed they were continuously physically tortured at Guantanamo...
...considering that, I think it is fair to say that everyone at Gitmo has been tortured.
The Luke
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Who should I believe... you, some Republican-true-believer internet tool who embarrasses himself with every post he makes on this board, or the Red Cross, who did an investigation into conditions at Gitmo and wrote up a report on the subject?
"tonymctones" you don't even have the decency to apologize when you accuse anyone better informed than you of being a liar when their statements of fact don't agree with your propaganda-informed prejudices. You are routinely owned on this board by your own insistence that links/sources be posted... when most of what you dismiss is merely common knowledge fact.
You, sir, have no credibility.
For the record, most Gitmo detainees have been severely tortured via the mechanism of "extraordinary rendition" BEFORE they ever arrive at Gitmo itself.
Considering the fact that the Red Cross has concluded the very living conditions at Gitmo constitute torture, and the hundreds of "enemy combatants" who have been released thus far due to their being found completely innocent: actual legal findings of innocence, have all claimed they were continuously physically tortured at Guantanamo...
...considering that, I think it is fair to say that everyone at Gitmo has been tortured.
The Luke
enough with the novel sized posts with 80 spaces in them alright
What would you expect them to say? most of them dont like the US so you think detainees are going from gitmo are going to come out and be favorable towards the US? LOL if that was the case they probably wouldnt be there in the first place. Second jailing somebody could be deemed torture under the geneva convention so i would like to see this red cross report so plz link me. So your only fact is that b/c of the conditions that gitmo has everyone who passes through is tortured? great logic.
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enough with the novel sized posts with 80 spaces in them alright
What would you expect them to say? most of them dont like the US so you think detainees are going from gitmo are going to come out and be favorable towards the US? LOL if that was the case they probably wouldnt be there in the first place. Second jailing somebody could be deemed torture under the geneva convention so i would like to see this red cross report so plz link me. So your only fact is that b/c of the conditions that gitmo has everyone who passes through is tortured? great logic.
...seems chronic dismissal is a symptom of FOX News brainwashing.
Again, it's not my job to educate you... you don't know you don't know to such an extent, perhaps you should consider reading something.
The Luke
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...seems chronic dismissal is a symptom of FOX News brainwashing.
Again, it's not my job to educate you... you don't know you don't know to such an extent, perhaps you should consider reading something.
The Luke
"The International Committee of the Red Cross has accused the U.S. military of using tactics "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba"
"and issued a formal report in July that said some interrogation tactics come close to torture, a source who has seen portions of the report"
tantamount to torture and close to torture including ""humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, [and] use of forced positions."
LOL im so sorry your where right this ppl have been beaten and raped on a daily basis starved as well.
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tony,
we're torturing them. You can justify it, maybe it's right, maybe it's not. Would I cut a guy up alive if it meant saving American lives? you bet I would.
But when you turn this into an argument with Luke on "are you sure it's really torture?", you get owned badly.
Just admit the conditions do constitute torture, that's okay with you. Otherwise, you just look like shit here, no offense.
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tony,
we're torturing them. You can justify it, maybe it's right, maybe it's not. Would I cut a guy up alive if it meant saving American lives? you bet I would.
But when you turn this into an argument with Luke on "are you sure it's really torture?", you get owned badly.
Just admit the conditions do constitute torture, that's okay with you. Otherwise, you just look like shit here, no offense.
shit you could put 2 in every one of their heads and it would be ok with me thats not the issue here though, I suppose we should have addressed this earlier but what constitutes torture is interpreted differently again read the geneva convention as it pertains to torture, seriously keeping somebody in jail could be deemed torture its written in such a broad all encompassing way. I personally dont believe sleep deprevation is torture, water boarding is debateable to me...beatings and rapings and such i would agree are torture the red cross report said nothing about them now im i niave enough to believe that these things dont happen no but are they the standard like luke would have you believe no.
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It doesn't matter if he's a citizen or not. It about doing what's right, It's about doing what's humane. Citing citizenship is a candy ass excuse. Isn't our way of life good enough for everyone? Isn't what we preach something we want everyone to follow? Treating a child like an animal makes us hypocrites.
It's a fvcking child FFS, NOT OBL
UM NO...but I actually spent 14 months in Afghanistan...all over the country, went to and through numerous villages...nobody thinks we're the Russians. Most Villages have radios where over 90% of the news is transmitted. Most villages have been dropped or given radios by the government. I've been on both radio drops and deliveries. I can't get into every wrong thing u said about Afghanistan, but I hope this is a start.
The conditions at Gitmo are in now way torture...and who the fuck cares anyway. God if any of u had spent a moment in combat, in the twin towers, or any time with these people u'd cook em and eat em instead of defend em.
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"The International Committee of the Red Cross has accused the U.S. military of using tactics "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba"
"and issued a formal report in July that said some interrogation tactics come close to torture, a source who has seen portions of the report"
tantamount to torture and close to torture including ""humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, [and] use of forced positions."
LOL im so sorry your where right this ppl have been beaten and raped on a daily basis starved as well.
...that section of the report deals with what the Red Cross was ALLOWED to see.
If the military are okay with the world knowing they are locking people in saunas and refrigerators, then hanging them upside down till their eyes bleed... well then maybe the claims of the guys who have been released might be true. Mightn't they?
Some of the Gitmo detainees who have been released detailed torture tactics that almost exactly mimic the treatment dished out to the detainees at Abu Ghraib.
Would I cut a guy up alive if it meant saving American lives? you bet I would.
..this kind of "Jack Bauer" thinking is the problem. Torture is an affront to human dignity... ALL human dignity. Also, it doesn't work... has never been shown to work... and doesn't yield reliable information when it does seem to work.
Remember, more than half of those sent to Gitmo so far have been released... and it seems only one or two detainees will ever face any charges. It's a witch hunt.
History will remember this bullshit alongside the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials... mass hysteria induced atrocity perpetrated by the brainwashed low-IQ sheeple class.
The Luke
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...that section of the report deals with what the Red Cross was ALLOWED to see.
If the military are okay with the world knowing they are locking people in saunas and refrigerators, then hanging them upside down till their eyes bleed... well then maybe the claims of the guys who have been released might be true. Mightn't they?
Some of the Gitmo detainees who have been released detailed torture tactics that almost exactly mimic the treatment dished out to the detainees at Abu Ghraib.
The Luke
AHHH so again we are assuming? i assume you have some proof of that or something i can look up to disprove that as well?
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...that section of the report deals with what the Red Cross was ALLOWED to see.
If the military are okay with the world knowing they are locking people in saunas and refrigerators, then hanging them upside down till their eyes bleed... well then maybe the claims of the guys who have been released might be true. Mightn't they?
Some of the Gitmo detainees who have been released detailed torture tactics that almost exactly mimic the treatment dished out to the detainees at Abu Ghraib.
..this kind of "Jack Bauer" thinking is the problem. Torture is an affront to human dignity... ALL human dignity. Also, it doesn't work... has never been shown to work... and doesn't yield reliable information when it does seem to work.
Remember, more than half of those sent to Gitmo so far have been released... and it seems only one or two detainees will ever face any charges. It's a witch hunt.
History will remember this bullshit alongside the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials... mass hysteria induced atrocity perpetrated by the brainwashed low-IQ sheeple class.
The Luke
U have no idea what the hell ur talking about......none at all. All u have access to is the net and cable news. U don't have a clearance, u don't get any intell briefs...ur a civilian. You're also a bleeding heart lib who's wacked world view is dangerous. Here u go on ur innocent bombed teen...
Included in the study was Omar Khadr, the 21-year-old Canadian, who has admitted to being trained by al-Qaeda and killing a US solider in Afghanistan. Khadr was detained by US forces in 2002 as a 15-year-old. In 2007, Khadr was formally charged with supporting terrorism, conspiracy, and spying in "violation of the law of war." Khadr has filed an affidavit saying he was threatened and abused as an inmate.
Oh and the AQ playbook tells u that the West is weak so claim abuse and the bleeding heart ACLU and leftist dirtbags will feel sorry for u.....
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U have no idea what the hell ur talking about......none at all. All u have access to is the net and cable news. U don't have a clearance, u don't get any intell briefs...ur a civilian. You're also a bleeding heart lib who's wacked world view is dangerous. Here u go on ur innocent bombed teen...
Included in the study was Omar Khadr, the 21-year-old Canadian, who has admitted to being trained by al-Qaeda and killing a US solider in Afghanistan. Khadr was detained by US forces in 2002 as a 15-year-old. In 2007, Khadr was formally charged with supporting terrorism, conspiracy, and spying in "violation of the law of war." Khadr has filed an affidavit saying he was threatened and abused as an inmate.
...admitted under torture?
Then why was he released?
The Iraqi doctor/journalist guy was accused of international terrorism and building bombs in his apartment.
The evidence?
He had an English language newspaper (he is a fluent English speaker who trained as a doctor in Britain) and there was a locked biscuit tin in his family apartment.
This became evidence that he had manufactured roadside bombs (the argument being that the lock on the biscuit tin proved he kept bomb making equipment in it, why else lock it?... despite the fact that the biscuit tin was opened during his arrest and found to contain only family photographs). The fact that a picture of Tony Blair appeared on the front page constituted the only evidence of his supposed "plan" to travel to Britain and assassinate the British Prime Minister.
On the basis of such stupidity... a box of family photos and a newspaper... he was sent to Egypt (memory fails me, could have been Syria) to be tortured for nearly a year.
Any one of you morons posting in this thread would also end up admitting to being a terrorist if you had the misfortune of being sent to Gitmo.
It seems most of those there are mistaken identities... or innocent civilians turned in for the reward.
Everything else is just "Hammer Therapy" (I'll explain tomorrow)
The Luke
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...admitted under torture?
Then why was he released?
The Iraqi doctor/journalist guy was accused of international terrorism and building bombs in his apartment.
The evidence?
He had an English language newspaper (he is a fluent English speaker who trained as a doctor in Britain) and there was a locked biscuit tin in his family apartment.
This became evidence that he had manufactured roadside bombs (the argument being that the lock on the biscuit tin proved he kept bomb making equipment in it, why else lock it?... despite the fact that the biscuit tin was opened during his arrest and found to contain only family photographs). The fact that a picture of Tony Blair appeared on the front page constituted the only evidence of his supposed "plan" to travel to Britain and assassinate the British Prime Minister.
On the basis of such stupidity... a box of family photos and a newspaper... he was sent to Egypt (memory fails me, could have been Syria) to be tortured for nearly a year.
Any one of you morons posting in this thread would also end up admitting to being a terrorist if you had the misfortune of being sent to Gitmo.
It seems most of those there are mistaken identities... or innocent civilians turned in for the reward.
Everything else is just "Hammer Therapy" (I'll explain tomorrow)
The Luke
As far as I know, Khadr hasn't been released. You might want to start fact-checking. You've been getting called out on a lot of the bullshit you perpetuate lately.
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As far as I know, Khadr hasn't been released. You might want to start fact-checking. You've been getting called out on a lot of the bullshit you perpetuate lately.
...didn't one of the reports I linked give the details of his release.
I kinda lost track... there were quite a few teenagers rounded up as "enemy combatants" and tortured into confessions of terrorism.
The Luke
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...didn't one of the reports I linked give the details of his release.
I kinda lost track... there were quite a few teenagers rounded up as "enemy combatants" and tortured into confessions of terrorism.
The Luke
actually i think the decision has been appealed so he is still in custody...also all you have is assumptions and i think ill take hh6's word as an insider as opposed to your RUSSIANS ARE INVADING logic
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actually i think the decision has been appealed so he is still in custody...also all you have is assumptions and i think ill take hh6's word as an insider as opposed to your RUSSIANS ARE INVADING logic
...you guys really showed me.
I'm now sure that everyone who has been sent to Gitmo definitely is a terrorist despite the fact that half of them have already been released with no charges pressed and of those still in custody the number against whom any kind of case can be made could be counted on the fingers of one hand.
God bless America! Palin 2012!
The Luke
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...you guys really showed me.
I'm now sure that everyone who has been sent to Gitmo definitely is a terrorist despite the fact that half of them have already been released with no charges pressed and of those still in custody the number against whom any kind of case can be made could be counted on the fingers of one hand.
God bless America! Palin 2012!
The Luke
oh you sure showed me too red cross saying that it was tantamount to torture and interrogation tatics came close to torture sure does prove that everybody in there are getting beaten tortured and raped. ::)
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oh you sure showed me too red cross saying that it was tantamount to torture and interrogation tatics came close to torture sure does prove that everybody in there are getting beaten tortured and raped. ::)
...your quotes come from excerpts of a leaked preview of the report.
Read the report you tool... don't tell me what it does or doesn't say based on the few sentences someone saw in a preview version of the report before it was released. That's tantamount to denying such and such an actor stars in such and such a film because you didn't see him in the trailer.
Read the report you ignoramus... or get someone else to read the big words for you.
The Luke
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...your quotes come from excerpts of a leaked preview of the report.
Read the report you tool... don't tell me what it does or doesn't say based on the few sentences someone saw in a preview version of the report before it was released. That's tantamount to denying such and such an actor stars in such and such a film because you didn't see him in the trailer.
Read the report you ignoramus... or get someone else to read the big words for you.
The Luke
LOL you telling me to do research and then taking the medias words on ppl who have supposedly been released from gitmo saying they where tortured...LOL nice
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i cant find a full report and if im not mistaken "tantamount to torture" is straight from the report.
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what we preach is for ppl living within the US, even if it did happen in the US he would still be detained.
I never once suggested something shouldn't happen to him. AND What we preach starts off with with something like "all people being created equal" I don't remember it saying "all AMERICAN CITIZENS" being created equal.
It's fvcking amazing how fear brings out the inhumanity in people.
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I never once suggested something shouldn't happen to him. AND What we preach starts off with with something like "all people being created equal" I don't remember it saying "all AMERICAN CITIZENS" being equal.
It's fvcking amazing how fear brings out the inhumanity in people.
right all ppl are created equal but if you read the constitution it starts we the ppl of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...should we go around the world and administer our form of justice to everybody? Tax ppl?
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right all ppl are created equal but if you read the constitution it starts we the ppl of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...should we go around the world and administer our form of justice to everybody? Tax ppl?
No, we should go around the world and have common sense and decency when it comes to children. When comes to grown men who commit terrorist acts we should be ruthless. AND most of all we should be civilized and human enough to know the difference between the 2.
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No, we should go around the world and have common sense and decency when it comes to children. When comes to grown men who commit terrorist acts we should be ruthless. AND most of all we should be civilized and human enough to know the difference between the 2.
what about children who commit terrorist acts? at what age do you think it is ok? 18, 21 you realize that these ages are mostly arbitrary by nature.
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what about children who commit terrorist acts? at what age do you think it is ok? 18, 21 you realize that these ages are mostly arbitrary by nature.
We are talking about an 11 year old child. Why is this even an issue?
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We are talking about an 11 year old child. Why is this even an issue?
You're either with the 11-year olds, or you're with us, Ozmo.
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We are talking about an 11 year old child. Why is this even an issue?
LOL if he tried to kill US soldiers you dont see an issue? personally i agree with what was said earlier if he was trying to kill US soldiers he should have been killed right there guns dont care how old the person is pulling the trigger and the bullets kill just as well as a gun shot by a 40 yr old.
Again at what age would you consider it ok?
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LOL if he tried to kill US soldiers you dont see an issue? personally i agree with what was said earlier if he was trying to kill US soldiers he should have been killed right there guns dont care how old the person is pulling the trigger and the bullets kill just as well as a gun shot by a 40 yr old.
Again at what age would you consider it ok?
It doesn't matter who he tried to kill. He's 11 years old and putting him in gitmo is stupid, inhumane, and plain gestapo like. If he was in the act of trying to kill a US soldier and the only choice was to kill him to prevent that then of course kill the kid. But that wasn't the issue here.
The issue is should a 11 year old CHILD be put in Gitmo.
And i think you know the answer to the question you keep asking me. Unless of course you're lumping me in with typical stereotypes conservatives love to roll around in. Which you might be doing and being quite incorrect. ;D
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It doesn't matter who he tried to kill. He's 11 years old and putting him in gitmo is stupid, inhumane, and plain gestapo like. If he was in the act of trying to kill a US soldier and the only choice was to kill him to prevent that then of course kill the kid. But that wasn't the issue here.
The issue is should a 11 year old CHILD be put in Gitmo.
And i think you know the answer to the question you keep asking me. Unless of course you're lumping me in with typical stereotypes conservatives love to roll around in. Which you might be doing and being quite incorrect. ;D
Why? There's a video out there of a 12 year old kid beheading a suspected spy with a dull blade. Takes him about a minute and a half to get the head off. Should that kid get a pat on the back for that?
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Why? There's a video out there of a 12 year old kid beheading a suspected spy with a dull blade. Takes him about a minute and a half to get the head off. Should that kid get a pat on the back for that?
Am i saying the kid should get a pat on the back or is that stuff you are rolling around in preventing you from seeing what i wrote?
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Am i saying the kid should get a pat on the back or is that stuff you are rolling around in preventing you from seeing what i wrote?
Why is it inhumane to keep him in Gitmo? If he did in fact throw a grenade at a soldier and killed him, he deserves what he gets. If they caught that 12 year old kid who beheaded that guy, what would you want done with him? Tell him we love him and that we'll make that bad people go away? These two WILL grow up to be terrorists. Enlighten me, though. What would you do with him?
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It doesn't matter who he tried to kill. He's 11 years old and putting him in gitmo is stupid, inhumane, and plain gestapo like. If he was in the act of trying to kill a US soldier and the only choice was to kill him to prevent that then of course kill the kid. But that wasn't the issue here.
The issue is should a 11 year old CHILD be put in Gitmo.
And i think you know the answer to the question you keep asking me. Unless of course you're lumping me in with typical stereotypes conservatives love to roll around in. Which you might be doing and being quite incorrect. ;D
what would you have us do with him? he is not a US citizen and this didnt occur on US soil so he should not be in US jail...you feel he should be put in juvie? LOL come on bro.
I dont know the answer to the question which is why i keep asking, i assume you will say 18 being thats the legal age in the US but im not sure. However i hope you realize that age is mostly arbitrary
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what would you have us do with him? he is not a US citizen and this didnt occur on US soil so he should not be in US jail...you feel he should be put in juvie? LOL come on bro.
I dont know the answer to the question which is why i keep asking, i assume you will say 18 being thats the legal age in the US but im not sure. However i hope you realize that age is mostly arbitrary
Putting the kid in Gitmo is the worse thing you can do. Should he be put in Juvie in the USA? No, of course not.
If a 16 year commits a terrorist act they should be punished like an adult and depending on the circumstances, execution should be considered. 14-15 should be handled case by case with leaning towards some sort of lengthy rehabilitation and probation in the country it happened.
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Putting the kid in Gitmo is the worse thing you can do. Should he be put in Juvie in the USA? No, of course not.
If a 16 year commits a terrorist act they should be punished like an adult and depending on the circumstances, execution should be considered. 14-15 should be handled case by case with leaning towards some sort of lengthy rehabilitation and probation in the country it happened.
LOL so your answer is send him to jail in afghanistan? or let the local authority punish him? ya im sure that would be much better...lol
Again what would you have them do with him?
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berserk & tony,
Do you feel 11 year old children in America who commit actions that kill another person should be sentenced to death?
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Why is it inhumane to keep him in Gitmo? If he did in fact throw a grenade at a soldier and killed him, he deserves what he gets. If they caught that 12 year old kid who beheaded that guy, what would you want done with him? Tell him we love him and that we'll make that bad people go away? These two WILL grow up to be terrorists. Enlighten me, though. What would you do with him?
Again, but kind of different: am i asking if the we should tell him we love him and that we will make the bad people go away or is there something in your eye?
You don't put an 11 year in a prison camp full of adult terrorists. PERIOD. I shouldn't have to explain it to you. You are not a muslim extremist, psycho-path, nazi concentration camp guard, sadist, etc...
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I think the bigger issue here is that 90+% of the people being rounded up as terrorists are actually innocent bystanders. 90+% of those being tortured have no info to give.
If reading an English language newspaper is considered proof of a plot to travel to Britain to kill Tony Blair then perhaps we should consider whether these children are actually terrorists at all?
That 14 year old was sent to Gitmo because they claimed he headed up a sleeper cell network in Britain when he was 11 (in fact he was attending school in Saudi Arabia, living with his parents).
Wake up people... this is a witch hunt. The vast majority of these guys are completely innocent.
Your American press doesn't cover this, but half of the detainees have already been released and your State department is paying big bucks to countries taking them in, hoping to sweep this under the rug.
The Luke
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LOL so your answer is send him to jail in afghanistan? or let the local authority punish him? ya im sure that would be much better...lol
Again what would you have them do with him?
No, he needs some sort of rehabilitation. He was obviously brainwashed to murder at a young age. He might have to be institutionalized most of his life. I donno the best course of action.
But I'm not ignorant or uncivilized enough to think putting an 11 year old child in gitmo is the best long term response or solution.
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berserk & tony,
Do you feel 11 year old children in America who commit actions that kill another person should be sentenced to death?
I wasnt aware he had been sentenced to death?
Secondly you really need to get off this in america kick it didnt happen in america it happened in afghanistan so i would be more than willing to let local authorities deal with him if you would like?
what would you have us do?
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I think the bigger issue here is that 90+% of the people being rounded up as terrorists are actually innocent bystanders. 90+% of those being tortured have no info to give.
If reading an English language newspaper is considered proof of a plot to travel to Britain to kill Tony Blair then perhaps we should consider whether these children are actually terrorists at all?
That 14 year old was sent to Gitmo because they claimed he headed up a sleeper cell network in Britain when he was 11 (in fact he was attending school in Saudi Arabia, living with his parents).
Wake up people... this is a witch hunt. The vast majority of these guys are completely innocent.
Your American press doesn't cover this, but half of the detainees have already been released and your State department is paying big bucks to countries taking them in, hoping to sweep this under the rug.
The Luke
So he didn't kill anyone and they sent him to gitmo?
What a bunch of ignorant back wood shrimp dick inbred fear minded pecker woods.
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what would you have us do?
Sticking an 11 year old kid in a prison camp with adults is something a MUSLIM TALIBAN LOVING extremist would do.
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No, he needs some sort of rehabilitation. He was obviously brainwashed to murder at a young age. He might have to be institutionalized most of his life. I donno the best course of action.
But I'm not ignorant or uncivilized enough to think putting an 11 year old child in gitmo is the best long term response or solution.
i can understand your viewpoint but again as you said this kid might have been brainwashed to kill american soldiers. Long term for me would mean that he wouldnt kill american soldiers and i personally dont really care how thats accomplished as long as its accomplished. Obviously america doesnt know how to rehibilitate their inmates very well so he wouldnt fair any better here in the states. You keep touting civilized, civilized, civilized...i tell you what id rather act uncivilized at times and accomplish our goals then try and carry ourselves with a certain ideal of moral superiority and not accomplish our goals.
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So he didn't kill anyone and they sent him to gitmo?
What a bunch of ignorant back wood shrimp dick inbred fear minded pecker woods.
U have no idea what the hell ur talking about......none at all. All u have access to is the net and cable news. U don't have a clearance, u don't get any intell briefs...ur a civilian. You're also a bleeding heart lib who's wacked world view is dangerous. Here u go on ur innocent bombed teen...
Included in the study was Omar Khadr, the 21-year-old Canadian, who has admitted to being trained by al-Qaeda and killing a US solider in Afghanistan. Khadr was detained by US forces in 2002 as a 15-year-old. In 2007, Khadr was formally charged with supporting terrorism, conspiracy, and spying in "violation of the law of war." Khadr has filed an affidavit saying he was threatened and abused as an inmate.
Oh and the AQ playbook tells u that the West is weak so claim abuse and the bleeding heart ACLU and leftist dirtbags will feel sorry for u.....
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Sticking an 11 year old kid in a prison camp with adults is something a MUSLIM TALIBAN LOVING extremist would do.
what happens when AQ starts recruiting young kids to do their work like they did with the mentally disabled and women?
Im sorry but there arent a lot of 11 yr olds running around shooting at US soldiers are there?
The idea that we need to fight a PC war is BULL SHIT, you dont go to war unless you are willing to accept the things that war includes.
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i can understand your viewpoint but again as you said this kid might have been brainwashed to kill american soldiers. Long term for me would mean that he wouldnt kill american soldiers and i personally dont really care how thats accomplished as long as its accomplished. Obviously america doesnt know how to rehibilitate their inmates very well so he wouldnt fair any better here in the states. You keep touting civilized, civilized, civilized...i tell you what id rather act uncivilized at times and accomplish our goals then try and carry ourselves with a certain ideal of moral superiority and not accomplish our goals.
Fair enough tony, but i reserved the "uncivilized acts of retribution" on ADULTS, not children.
Our rehabilitation system is a joke in the USA, agreed. What do you think we created by putting him in Gitmo?
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So he didn't kill anyone and they sent him to gitmo?
...most of the guys in Gitmo are there because local people turned them in for the reward money.
The American press doesn't seem to cover it much, but seemingly anyone with a pretty wife; big house; car or job was handed over to the Americans by those who really wanted a chunk of cash; a pretty wife; big house; car or job.
It's probably the most blatant opportune use of the death list since Sulla's (Sylla) Proscriptions.
There is practically NO EVIDENCE against anyone at Gitmo. I've read that less than 4 of them will ever stand trial (ie: the prosecution can actually make a case).
So how useful was all that abuse and torture? They were torturing innocent people. How usable is that "forcibly coerced" intel?
I could see Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld on trial for war crimes at the Hague in the near future.
The Luke
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I wasnt aware he had been sentenced to death?
Secondly you really need to get off this in america kick it didnt happen in america it happened in afghanistan so i would be more than willing to let local authorities deal with him if you would like?
what would you have us do?
you answered my Q with 3 of your own. let's try again.
Do you feel 11 year old children in America who commit actions that kill another person should be sentenced to death?
Do you feel 11 year old children in America who commit actions that kill another person should be sentenced to life in prison?
I await your response.
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what happens when AQ starts recruiting young kids to do their work like they did with the mentally disabled and women?
Im sorry but there arent a lot of 11 yr olds running around shooting at US soldiers are there?
The idea that we need to fight a PC war is BULL SHIT, you dont go to war unless you are willing to accept the things that war includes.
dude you are throwing a whole lot of extra stuff here that doesn't apply to my views. I'm not johnny PC when is comes to war. However, I am human and practical when comes to children.
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...most of the guys in Gitmo are there because local people turned them in for the reward money.
The American press doesn't seem to cover it much, but seemingly anyone with a pretty wife; big house; car or job was handed over to the Americans by those who really wanted a chunk of cash; a pretty wife; big house; car or job.
It's probably the most blatant opportune use of the death list since Sulla's (Sylla) Proscriptions.
There is practically NO EVIDENCE against anyone at Gitmo. I've read that less than 4 of them will ever stand trial (ie: the prosecution can actually make a case).
So how useful was all that abuse and torture? They were torturing innocent people. How usable is that "forcibly coerced" intel?
I could see Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld on trial for war crimes at the Hague in the near future.
The Luke
I've read this before. It's sad and tragic for the ones imprisoned who are innocent.
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Fair enough tony, but i reserved the "uncivilized acts of retribution" on ADULTS, not children.
Our rehabilitation system is a joke in the USA, agreed. What do you think we created by putting him in Gitmo?
In all honesty nothing in terms of rehibilitation I agree with you on that, what it did accomplish though is keeping him from trying to kill any more soldiers(my main concern far over his well being)
I understand what your saying he is 11 or however old the person really is i think luke made that story up but whatever the case they are young kids. Its a shitty situation however something must be done with him and barring creating another prison for children which im sure would go over real well with the liberals in this country there isnt much else to do with the kid is there?
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you answered my Q with 3 of your own. let's try again.
Do you feel 11 year old children in America who commit actions that kill another person should be sentenced to death?
Do you feel 11 year old children in America who commit actions that kill another person should be sentenced to life in prison?
I await your response.
I know you are not asking me, but i can't help it. :)
NO on both but reserved the right to change mind based on individual cases.
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you answered my Q with 3 of your own. let's try again.
Do you feel 11 year old children in America who commit actions that kill another person should be sentenced to death?
Do you feel 11 year old children in America who commit actions that kill another person should be sentenced to life in prison?
I await your response.
my bad bro i thought your post was from OZ as we where the only ones talking at that point didnt even notice it was your post instead of his.
No i dont think they should be sentenced to death, is this child a US citizen and did this happen in the US also has this child been sentenced to death?
The second question is debatable on the situation, i would probably generally lean towards no but again dependent upon situation.
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In all honesty nothing in terms of rehibilitation I agree with you on that, what it did accomplish though is keeping him from trying to kill any more soldiers(my main concern far over his well being)
if he ever leaves gitmo do you think the chances of him committing an act of violence against americans is higher than if he was at least attempted to be rehabilitated and put on a lengthy supervised ankle bracelet probation?
I do. Higher by miles.
I understand what your saying he is 11 or however old the person really is i think luke made that story up but whatever the case they are young kids. Its a shitty situation however something must be done with him and barring creating another prison for children which im sure would go over real well with the liberals in this country there isnt much else to do with the kid is there?
No mater what is done someone will bitch. so what? Creating a lengthy prison/rehabilitation/probation program for 11 year olds who committed terrorist acts is the right thing to do.
I know i come off as unrealistically idealistic at times. But we are supposed to be the "good guys". ;) ;D And that burden is worth bearing.
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NO on both
what if an 11-year old american child fire a gun at an american soldier?
Execute him on teh spot?
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if he ever leaves gitmo do you think the chances of him committing an act of violence against americans is higher than if he was at least attempted to be rehabilitated and put on a lengthy supervised ankle bracelet probation?
I do. Higher by miles.
No mater what is done someone will bitch. so what? Creating a lengthy prison/rehabilitation/probation program for 11 year olds who committed terrorist acts is the right thing to do.
I know i come off as unrealistically idealistic at times. But we are supposed to be the "good guys". ;) ;D And that burden is worth bearing.
do you think it realistic to start a school of sorts and moniter their movements with ankle bracelets? be honest bro that would not work I agree if it was feasable then ya it would.
OZMO im gonna tell you this and i think you should really think about it..."Good" is nothing more than perspective bro and i respect that you hold yourself to a standard but if you where born in iran or afghanistan you could very likely be what you consider bad right now.
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do you think it realistic to start a school of sorts and moniter their movements with ankle bracelets? be honest bro that would not work I agree if it was feasable then ya it would.
OZMO im gonna tell you this and i think you should really think about it..."Good" is nothing more than perspective bro and i respect that you hold yourself to a standard but if you where born in iran or afghanistan you could very likely be what you consider bad right now.
what do we do with children who were brainwashed at an early age and committed murder? Most of them are institutionalized. I'm not suggesting school. Some rehabilitate, most don't.
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what if an 11-year old american child fire a gun at an american soldier?
Execute him on teh spot?
no.
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what do we do with children who were brainwashed at an early age and committed murder? Most of them are institutionalized. I'm not suggesting school. Some rehabilitate, most don't.
Again we need to get away from treating these ppl like they are US citizens.
you are suggesting that we moniter them with ankle bracelets which means they will not be under direct supervision i.e. not in an encampment or prison.
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Again we need to get away from treating these ppl like they are US citizens.
you are suggesting that we moniter them with ankle bracelets which means they will not be under direct supervision i.e. not in an encampment or prison.
those people?
you mean those children. Because that's what i mean.
And I am not suggesting "we moniter them with ankle bracelets which means they will not be under direct supervision i.e. not in an encampment or prison."
I am directly saying that putting an 11 year old child in gitmo is archaic, indecent, uncivilized, Taliban like, nazi like, stupid, ignorant, not right, un christian, etc...
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those people?
you mean those children. Because that's what i mean.
And I am not suggesting "we moniter them with ankle bracelets which means they will not be under direct supervision i.e. not in an encampment or prison."
I am directly saying that putting an 11 year old child in gitmo is archaic, indecent, uncivilized, Taliban like, nazi like, stupid, ignorant, not right, un christian, etc...
Enemy combatants is what i was referring to...
dont throw the christian thing at me killing in general is unchristian but your ok with that if they are older. THOU SHALL NOT KILL!!! doesnt get much clearer than that.
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I normally just read what is wrote here, I have a huge problem with treating these people like we would the average US citizen. If a kid is firing at soldiers in a country we are at war with, and these soldiers didnt shoot him on the spot then I am amazed. They are better than me. Sending him to basically a pow camp is fine with me. What do you want to do with him rehabilitate? I dont think that is possible. Its a different culture for 11 years or however old this kid is he has been taught that the US and the western world is the enemy how easy is it to change that? Maybe I am wrong but I think that when a person has something beat into his head for a long time they start believing that to be true no matter what someone else tells them.
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Enemy combatants is what i was referring to...
dont throw the christian thing at me killing in general is unchristian but your ok with that if they are older. THOU SHALL NOT KILL!!! doesnt get much clearer than that.
In the act, of course, kill the kid. After the fact, get him and institutionalize him. It's not like we're gonna have thousands of cases like this.
And the christian thing does apply, at least modern day christians in regards to decency and doing the right thing. We are not animals or extreme muslims because that's EXACTLY what those fvckers would do, or maybe even not. You seem to always be equating this child with adults. They are not the same.
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In the act, of course, kill the kid. After the fact, get him and institutionalize him. It's not like we're gonna have thousands of cases like this.
And the christian thing does apply, at least modern day christians in regards to decency and doing the right thing. We are not animals or extreme muslims because that's EXACTLY what those fvckers would do, or maybe even not. You seem to always be equating this child with adults. They are not the same.
im equating this child as a person who was shooting at american soldiers simple as that, its just not practical OZ like you said we arent going to have alot of cases like this so building a compound seperate for just cases such as this would be silly.
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I normally just read what is wrote here, I have a huge problem with treating these people like we would the average US citizen. If a kid is firing at soldiers in a country we are at war with, and these soldiers didnt shoot him on the spot then I am amazed. They are better than me. Sending him to basically a pow camp is fine with me. What do you want to do with him rehabilitate? I dont think that is possible. Its a different culture for 11 years or however old this kid is he has been taught that the US and the western world is the enemy how easy is it to change that? Maybe I am wrong but I think that when a person has something beat into his head for a long time they start believing that to be true no matter what someone else tells them.
I agree, scooter good to see new blood here you should post more.
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im equating this child as a person who was shooting at american soldiers simple as that, its just not practical OZ like you said we arent going to have alot of cases like this so building a compound seperate for just cases such as this would be silly.
ehh maybe, but why not send him to a institution in a neighboring country?
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I agree, scooter good to see new blood here you should post more.
thanks I used too. probally will start more thanks
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...wasn't one of the guys arrested when he was 11 years old?
Imagine that for a second... forget you're a conservative and actually think for a few moments.
US warplanes carpet bomb an Afghan mountain valley, killing an extended family of goat herders who never even heard the name Osama bin Laden. The surviving 11 year old grabs his dead father's AK 47 and attempts to round up some of the shell shocked goats.
American troops pour into the valley... the kids thinks they must be Russians re-invading so he fires his clip of bullets, hitting no one.
The American soldiers, none of whom speak Arabic, capture the kid... beat the shit out of him when he can't answer questions asked in English, then ship him off to Guantanamo.
There he spends seven years being regularly beaten, raped, tortured, waterboarded, and starved. The interrogators use truth drugs on him, deprive him of sleep and sexually molest him (yes, this is happening).
After a couple of years the kid attempts suicide (90% of Gitmo detainees have tried), but survives till 2009.
Now that a new administration learns there is absolutely no evidence; that no charges can pressed against the young man, his torture routine is suspended.
But you guys think THIS small act of Christian mercy is objectionable...?
Morons.
The Luke
If you're talking about this kid, he was 14 when he was arrested.
Judge orders release of young Gitmo detainee
He was identified as al-Qaida at 11, arrested by Pakistan police at 14
U.S. District Judge Richard Leon ordered the release of Mohammed el Gharani, who was arrested by Pakistan police at 14.
View related photos
Art Lien/NBC News
updated 2:16 p.m. HT, Wed., Jan. 14, 2009
WASHINGTON - A federal judge on Wednesday ordered the military to release one of its first Guantanamo Bay detainees, a 21-year-old man who has been detained and accused of being a terrorist since he was 14.
Mohammed el Gharani, who is of Chadian nationality but had lived in Saudi Arabia, should be released from the U.S. prison in Cuba "forthwith," U.S. District Judge Richard Leon said in a ruling from the bench.
The military had accused el Gharani of being part of al-Qaida, working for the Taliban and fighting American forces in Afghanistan. However, Leon said those accusations were based on testimony from other Guantanamo Bay detainees, which he found unreliable.
Story continues below ↓
"Simply stated, a mosaic of tiles bearing images this murky reveals nothing about the petitioner with sufficient clarity, either individually or collectively, that can be relied upon by this court," Leon said.
El Gharani listened to the ruling live by telephone from Cuba but did not react.
He could be on his way home to his family in a few weeks, lawyer Zackary Katznelson said. "Judge Leon did justice today."
The government can appeal Leon's decision.
"We're disappointed by the ruling and will consider our options," Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said.
El Gharani was arrested in Pakistan in 2001 at a mosque by local police, and turned over to United States forces in 2002. He was one of the first Guantanamo Bay detainees and also one of the youngest.
Katznelson said el Gharani now has spent a third of his life in military prison in Cuba. "He never should have been in prison in the first place," Katznelson said.
He was accused of receiving military training from al-Qaida in Afghanistan and serving as a courier for several high-ranking members. He also is accused of fighting against U.S. and coalition forces at the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in late 2001 and of being a member of an al-Qaida cell based in London in 1998.
El Gharani denied all of the accusations.
The government's only evidence is statements made by two other Guantanamo Bay detainees whose credibility and reliability has been called into question by "government personnel," Leon said.
For example, El Gharani's lawyers pointed out that he would have been 11 in 1998, when he is accused of being part of an al-Qaida cell in England.
And "putting aside the obvious and unanswered questions as to how a Saudi minor from a very poor family could have even become a member of a London-based cell, the government simply advances no corroborating evidence for these statements it believes to be reliable from a fellow detainee, the basis of whose knowledge is — at best — unknown," Leon said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28660621/
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Posted on cnn.com today.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A Saudi national released from U.S. detention at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in September 2007 is believed to be a key leader in al Qaeda's operations in Yemen, according to a U.S. counterterrorism official.
The Defense Department recently estimated that more than 60 terrorists released from Guantanamo may have returned to the battlefield.
According to the counterterrorism official, freed detainee Ali al-Shiri traveled to Yemen after being released to Saudi Arabia and may have been involved in recent al Qaeda attacks in Yemen, including a car bombing outside the U.S. Embassy in Sanaa last year that killed nearly a dozen people.
"He is one of a handful of al Qaeda deputies in Yemen," the official said. "He is one of the top terrorists."
His title is deputy and senior operations commander, the source said.
According to the magazine Sada al-Malahem, or The Echo of the Epics, published by al Qaeda in Yemen, al-Shiri attended a media session in which Yemen commander Abu Baseer was interviewed.
The magazine identified al-Shiri as Baseer's deputy commander and quoted Baseer as announcing that al Qaeda's operations in Yemen and Saudi Arabia have been combined to become al Qaeda on the Arabian Peninsula.
The magazine noted that al-Shiri was released from Guantanamo more than 10 months ago.
He fled a Saudi jihadi re-education program, where he went after his release, a Saudi source told CNN's Nic Robertson.
President Obama on Thursday signed an order mandating that the Guantanamo Bay prison be closed within the year. What to do with the detainees has been a hotly debated topic.
The issue of freed detainees engaging in terrorism is one concern. Another is housing them in prisons inside the United States. Video Watch experts debate the Guantanamo dilemma »
Rep. Bill Young, R-Florida, said he has "quite a bit of anxiety" about the possibility of transferring detainees to U.S. facilities.
"Number one, they're dangerous," Young said. "Secondly, once they become present in the United States, what is their legal status? What is their constitutional status? I worry about that, because I don't want them to have the same constitutional rights that you and I have. They're our enemy."
Obama's decision to close the Guantanamo facility received immediate backing from his general election opponent, Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain.
McCain, in a joint statement with South Carolina GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham, said he supported Obama's decision to "begin a process that will, we hope, lead to the resolution of all cases of Guantanamo detainees."
But Thursday night on CNN's "Larry King Live," McCain said the new president may have been hasty in the decision and should have taken the time to consider everything associated with closing the camp before forcing himself into a timetable.
Specifically, McCain said he thought Obama needed to consider what would happen to the prisoners held at Guantanamo before ordering the facility to be closed.
"So, the easy part, in all due respect, is to say we're going to close Guantanamo," McCain said. "Then I think I would have said where they were going to be taken. Because you're going to run into a NIMBY [not in my backyard] problem here in the United States of America." Video Watch what may happen to Guantanamo's inmates »
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Asked about that issue Thursday, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, "We have developed some options in terms of how many we think could be returned to other countries to take them. That diplomatic initiative has not started. That will await work in carrying out the executive order."
"We have identified a number of possible prisons here in the United States" that could take the detainees. However, Gates added, "I've heard from members of Congress [representing] where all those prisons are located. Their enthusiasm is limited."
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If you're talking about this kid, he was 14 when he was arrested.
Judge orders release of young Gitmo detainee
He was identified as al-Qaida at 11, arrested by Pakistan police at 14
U.S. District Judge Richard Leon ordered the release of Mohammed el Gharani, who was arrested by Pakistan police at 14.
View related photos
Art Lien/NBC News
updated 2:16 p.m. HT, Wed., Jan. 14, 2009
WASHINGTON - A federal judge on Wednesday ordered the military to release one of its first Guantanamo Bay detainees, a 21-year-old man who has been detained and accused of being a terrorist since he was 14.
Mohammed el Gharani, who is of Chadian nationality but had lived in Saudi Arabia, should be released from the U.S. prison in Cuba "forthwith," U.S. District Judge Richard Leon said in a ruling from the bench.
The military had accused el Gharani of being part of al-Qaida, working for the Taliban and fighting American forces in Afghanistan. However, Leon said those accusations were based on testimony from other Guantanamo Bay detainees, which he found unreliable.
Story continues below ↓
"Simply stated, a mosaic of tiles bearing images this murky reveals nothing about the petitioner with sufficient clarity, either individually or collectively, that can be relied upon by this court," Leon said.
El Gharani listened to the ruling live by telephone from Cuba but did not react.
He could be on his way home to his family in a few weeks, lawyer Zackary Katznelson said. "Judge Leon did justice today."
The government can appeal Leon's decision.
"We're disappointed by the ruling and will consider our options," Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said.
El Gharani was arrested in Pakistan in 2001 at a mosque by local police, and turned over to United States forces in 2002. He was one of the first Guantanamo Bay detainees and also one of the youngest.
Katznelson said el Gharani now has spent a third of his life in military prison in Cuba. "He never should have been in prison in the first place," Katznelson said.
He was accused of receiving military training from al-Qaida in Afghanistan and serving as a courier for several high-ranking members. He also is accused of fighting against U.S. and coalition forces at the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in late 2001 and of being a member of an al-Qaida cell based in London in 1998.
El Gharani denied all of the accusations.
The government's only evidence is statements made by two other Guantanamo Bay detainees whose credibility and reliability has been called into question by "government personnel," Leon said.
For example, El Gharani's lawyers pointed out that he would have been 11 in 1998, when he is accused of being part of an al-Qaida cell in England.
And "putting aside the obvious and unanswered questions as to how a Saudi minor from a very poor family could have even become a member of a London-based cell, the government simply advances no corroborating evidence for these statements it believes to be reliable from a fellow detainee, the basis of whose knowledge is — at best — unknown," Leon said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28660621/
So the kid didn't even kill anyone and he was put in an adult military prison for 7 years?
pathetic.
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So the kid didn't even kill anyone and he was put in an adult military prison for 7 years?
pathetic.
You're not bothered by the fact you debated imprisonment of an 11 year-old when it apparently never happened? (kidding)
How do you know he wasn't segregated from the adults?
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You're not bothered by the fact you debated imprisonment of an 11 year-old when it apparently never happened? (kidding)
How do you know he wasn't segregated from the adults?
The 11 year was good debate because is was about principle. I'm very glad it wasn't true.
About the 14 year old,
At the very least i hope he was segregated. One of the problems are, unless there are other 14 year olds or kids his age imprisoned there, then he'd have been sorta in solitary confinement.
14 years old is a borderline age. It's hard to say either way, in war, what should be done. I do know that, he shouldn't be at a adult military prison camp.
There are many difficult issues here because of the difference between this and a traditional war.
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The 11 year was good debate because is was about principle. I'm very glad it wasn't true.
About the 14 year old,
At the very least i hope he was segregated. One of the problems are, unless there are other 14 year olds or kids his age imprisoned there, then he'd have been sorta in solitary confinement.
14 years old is a borderline age. It's hard to say either way, in war, what should be done. I do know that, he shouldn't be at a adult military prison camp.
There are many difficult issues here because of the difference between this and a traditional war.
Yep. Tough decisions. Not sure what we should do. We can't simply view and treat them precisely the way we treat U.S. citizens, including minors. These are people who are willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Our kids aren't like that. It's a completely different mindset.
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Yep. Tough decisions. Not sure what we should do. We can't simply view and treat them precisely the way we treat U.S. citizens, including minors. These are people who are willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Our kids aren't like that. It's a completely different mindset.
Ah yes, the good old days of war, when it was country vs county. >:( ;D
I agree we can't give them full rights and treatment that we give US citizens, but we should treat children with decency and do what's right.
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THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dont worry everything will be ok now that obama is president rainbows everyday and free money for all!!!!!!!!!
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Dont worry everything will be ok now that obama is president rainbows everyday and free money for all!!!!!!!!!
Are you crazy. Obama has a direct line to Osama Bin Laden..
Oh shit Obama.... Osama.... Hussien...Sadam...holy shit. The end of days is tomorrow, everyone get your emergency packs... :o :o
This is serious business. First he is going to let the Getmo terrosits loose on the streets of America...and then he is going to take everyones money and keep it for himself
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Are you crazy. Obama has a direct line to Osama Bin Laden..
Oh shit Obama.... Osama.... Hussien...Sadam...holy shit. The end of days is tomorrow, everyone get your emergency packs... :o :o
This is serious business. First he is going to let the Getmo terrosits loose on the streets of America...and then he is going to take everyones money and keep it for himself
I thought he was going to bring everybody together and we would all sing kumbya while we all pull our my money together and everybody will love each other just like his pastor preeches, no?
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I thought he was going to bring everybody together and we would all sing kumbya while we all pull our my money together and everybody will love each other just like his pastor preeches, no?
According to Hannity, Bill O and Beck...dude our families arent safe and he is going to let killers teach kindergarden
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According to Hannity, Bill O and Beck...dude our families arent safe and he is going to let killers teach kindergarden
vid or your a liar ;D (getbig style)
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vid or your a liar ;D (getbig style)
my camera broke., i dont know how to upload
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Daily_Show_Fox_attacks_Obama_on_0123.html
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my camera broke., i dont know how to upload
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Daily_Show_Fox_attacks_Obama_on_0123.html
LOL ;D
According to Hannity, Bill O and Beck...dude our families arent safe and he is going to let killers teach kindergarden
They didnt say anything about killers teaching kindergarden >:(
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Ah yes, the good old days of war, when it was country vs county. >:( ;D
I agree we can't give them full rights and treatment that we give US citizens, but we should treat children with decency and do what's right.
What is the right thing to do to a 14yr old kid shooting at US soldiers? We dont know because we have never had to deal with that (unless you count the Hitler youth). This is something forgein to a civilized country. You cant try the kid for attempted murder can you? If you do then where are you going to send him? Back to his country,a US jail in protective custody for life? I dont know but this is something that we as a nation are going to have to deal with quickly. I dont think that you can rehabilate him either. So its either back to his home country where he will be unsupervised or a US prison where he will be monitered 24/7. ???
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What is the right thing to do to a 14yr old kid shooting at US soldiers? We dont know because we have never had to deal with that (unless you count the Hitler youth). This is something forgein to a civilized country. You cant try the kid for attempted murder can you? If you do then where are you going to send him? Back to his country,a US jail in protective custody for life? I dont know but this is something that we as a nation are going to have to deal with quickly. I dont think that you can rehabilate him either. So its either back to his home country where he will be unsupervised or a US prison where he will be monitered 24/7. ???
From what i understand his imprisonment wasn't about him shooting and killing a US soldier. But, let's say for the sake of debate he did.
Like i was saying earlier, 14 years old is a tough age because it's right in the age spectrum of accountability. It's an age that very in flux. In a traditional war, I'd say he needs to put in a prison camp with people of the same age group if possible and released when the war ends if there isn't any charges of war crimes.
But this isn't a traditional war. We are not fighting a uniformed army representing a country. We are fighting what amount to criminals and religious zealots who want our total destruction. That to me qualifies as "insane." He should be institutionalized with the likely possibility of serving time in prison for murder. But he shouldn't have been sent to Gitmo, because the only thing that experience will do is strengthen his resolve for acts of violence once he's released.
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From what i understand his imprisonment wasn't about him shooting and killing a US soldier. But, let's say for the sake of debate he did.
Like i was saying earlier, 14 years old is a tough age because it's right in the age spectrum of accountability. It's an age that very in flux. In a traditional war, I'd say he needs to put in a prison camp with people of the same age group if possible and released when the war ends if there isn't any charges of war crimes.
But this isn't a traditional war. We are not fighting a uniformed army representing a country. We are fighting what amount to criminals and religious zealots who want our total destruction. That to me qualifies as "insane." He should be institutionalized with the likely possibility of serving time in prison for murder. But he shouldn't have been sent to Gitmo, because the only thing that experience will do is strengthen his resolve for acts of violence once he's released.
the article said suspected for fighting with terrorist so I assumed that was what it was. went back and reread it. either way
I think that is a good Idea, see what we can do with these kids that are brainwashed maybe we can change them? If not then prison at 18? With protective custody? Tough questions that need to be dealt with. Where should the kid be held if not at gitmo?