Author Topic: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?  (Read 8246 times)

scooter

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2009, 09:37:41 PM »
I normally just read what is wrote here, I have a huge problem with treating these people like we would the average US citizen. If a kid is firing at soldiers in a country we are at war with, and these soldiers didnt shoot him on the spot then I am amazed. They are better than me. Sending him to basically a pow camp is fine with me. What do you want to do with him rehabilitate? I dont think that is possible. Its a different culture for 11 years or however old this kid is he has been taught that the US and the western world is the enemy how easy is it to change that? Maybe I am wrong but I think that when a person has something beat into his head for a long time they start believing that to be true no matter what someone else tells them.

OzmO

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2009, 07:13:01 AM »
Enemy combatants is what i was referring to...

dont throw the christian thing at me killing in general is unchristian but your ok with that if they are older. THOU SHALL NOT KILL!!! doesnt get much clearer than that.



In the act, of course, kill the kid.  After the fact, get him and institutionalize him.  It's not like we're gonna have thousands of cases like this.

And the christian thing does apply, at least modern day christians in regards to decency and doing the right thing.  We are not animals or extreme muslims because that's EXACTLY what those fvckers would do, or maybe even not.    You seem to always be equating this child with adults.  They are not the same. 

tonymctones

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #102 on: January 23, 2009, 07:26:22 AM »
In the act, of course, kill the kid.  After the fact, get him and institutionalize him.  It's not like we're gonna have thousands of cases like this.

And the christian thing does apply, at least modern day christians in regards to decency and doing the right thing.  We are not animals or extreme muslims because that's EXACTLY what those fvckers would do, or maybe even not.    You seem to always be equating this child with adults.  They are not the same. 
im equating this child as a person who was shooting at american soldiers simple as that, its just not practical OZ like you said we arent going to have alot of cases like this so building a compound seperate for just cases such as this would be silly.


tonymctones

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2009, 07:26:58 AM »
I normally just read what is wrote here, I have a huge problem with treating these people like we would the average US citizen. If a kid is firing at soldiers in a country we are at war with, and these soldiers didnt shoot him on the spot then I am amazed. They are better than me. Sending him to basically a pow camp is fine with me. What do you want to do with him rehabilitate? I dont think that is possible. Its a different culture for 11 years or however old this kid is he has been taught that the US and the western world is the enemy how easy is it to change that? Maybe I am wrong but I think that when a person has something beat into his head for a long time they start believing that to be true no matter what someone else tells them.
I agree, scooter good to see new blood here you should post more.

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2009, 08:16:04 AM »
im equating this child as a person who was shooting at american soldiers simple as that, its just not practical OZ like you said we arent going to have alot of cases like this so building a compound seperate for just cases such as this would be silly.



ehh maybe, but why not send him to a institution in a neighboring country?

scooter

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2009, 09:01:09 AM »
I agree, scooter good to see new blood here you should post more.

thanks I used too. probally will start more thanks

Dos Equis

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2009, 09:55:49 AM »
...wasn't one of the guys arrested when he was 11 years old?


Imagine that for a second... forget you're a conservative and actually think for a few moments.

US warplanes carpet bomb an Afghan mountain valley, killing an extended family of goat herders who never even heard the name Osama bin Laden. The surviving 11 year old grabs his dead father's AK 47 and attempts to round up some of the shell shocked goats.

American troops pour into the valley... the kids thinks they must be Russians re-invading so he fires his clip of bullets, hitting no one.

The American soldiers, none of whom speak Arabic, capture the kid... beat the shit out of him when he can't answer questions asked in English, then ship him off to Guantanamo.

There he spends seven years being regularly beaten, raped, tortured, waterboarded, and starved. The interrogators use truth drugs on him, deprive him of sleep and sexually molest him (yes, this is happening).

After a couple of years the kid attempts suicide (90% of Gitmo detainees have tried), but survives till 2009.

Now that a new administration learns there is absolutely no evidence; that no charges can pressed against the young man, his torture routine is suspended.


But you guys think THIS small act of Christian mercy is objectionable...?

Morons.



The Luke  

If you're talking about this kid, he was 14 when he was arrested. 

Judge orders release of young Gitmo detainee
He was identified as al-Qaida at 11, arrested by Pakistan police at 14
 U.S. District Judge Richard Leon ordered the release of Mohammed el Gharani, who was arrested by Pakistan police at 14.
 View related photos
Art Lien/NBC News 

updated 2:16 p.m. HT, Wed., Jan. 14, 2009
WASHINGTON - A federal judge on Wednesday ordered the military to release one of its first Guantanamo Bay detainees, a 21-year-old man who has been detained and accused of being a terrorist since he was 14.

Mohammed el Gharani, who is of Chadian nationality but had lived in Saudi Arabia, should be released from the U.S. prison in Cuba "forthwith," U.S. District Judge Richard Leon said in a ruling from the bench.

The military had accused el Gharani of being part of al-Qaida, working for the Taliban and fighting American forces in Afghanistan. However, Leon said those accusations were based on testimony from other Guantanamo Bay detainees, which he found unreliable.

Story continues below ↓

"Simply stated, a mosaic of tiles bearing images this murky reveals nothing about the petitioner with sufficient clarity, either individually or collectively, that can be relied upon by this court," Leon said.

El Gharani listened to the ruling live by telephone from Cuba but did not react.

He could be on his way home to his family in a few weeks, lawyer Zackary Katznelson said. "Judge Leon did justice today."

The government can appeal Leon's decision.

"We're disappointed by the ruling and will consider our options," Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said.

El Gharani was arrested in Pakistan in 2001 at a mosque by local police, and turned over to United States forces in 2002. He was one of the first Guantanamo Bay detainees and also one of the youngest.

Katznelson said el Gharani now has spent a third of his life in military prison in Cuba. "He never should have been in prison in the first place," Katznelson said.

He was accused of receiving military training from al-Qaida in Afghanistan and serving as a courier for several high-ranking members. He also is accused of fighting against U.S. and coalition forces at the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in late 2001 and of being a member of an al-Qaida cell based in London in 1998.

El Gharani denied all of the accusations.

The government's only evidence is statements made by two other Guantanamo Bay detainees whose credibility and reliability has been called into question by "government personnel," Leon said.

For example, El Gharani's lawyers pointed out that he would have been 11 in 1998, when he is accused of being part of an al-Qaida cell in England.

And "putting aside the obvious and unanswered questions as to how a Saudi minor from a very poor family could have even become a member of a London-based cell, the government simply advances no corroborating evidence for these statements it believes to be reliable from a fellow detainee, the basis of whose knowledge is — at best — unknown," Leon said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28660621/

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2009, 11:15:30 AM »
Posted on cnn.com today.


 WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A Saudi national released from U.S. detention at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in September 2007 is believed to be a key leader in al Qaeda's operations in Yemen, according to a U.S. counterterrorism official.

The Defense Department recently estimated that more than 60 terrorists released from Guantanamo may have returned to the battlefield.

According to the counterterrorism official, freed detainee Ali al-Shiri traveled to Yemen after being released to Saudi Arabia and may have been involved in recent al Qaeda attacks in Yemen, including a car bombing outside the U.S. Embassy in Sanaa last year that killed nearly a dozen people.

"He is one of a handful of al Qaeda deputies in Yemen," the official said. "He is one of the top terrorists."

His title is deputy and senior operations commander, the source said.

According to the magazine Sada al-Malahem, or The Echo of the Epics, published by al Qaeda in Yemen, al-Shiri attended a media session in which Yemen commander Abu Baseer was interviewed.

The magazine identified al-Shiri as Baseer's deputy commander and quoted Baseer as announcing that al Qaeda's operations in Yemen and Saudi Arabia have been combined to become al Qaeda on the Arabian Peninsula.

The magazine noted that al-Shiri was released from Guantanamo more than 10 months ago.

He fled a Saudi jihadi re-education program, where he went after his release, a Saudi source told CNN's Nic Robertson.

President Obama on Thursday signed an order mandating that the Guantanamo Bay prison be closed within the year. What to do with the detainees has been a hotly debated topic.

The issue of freed detainees engaging in terrorism is one concern. Another is housing them in prisons inside the United States. Video Watch experts debate the Guantanamo dilemma »

Rep. Bill Young, R-Florida, said he has "quite a bit of anxiety" about the possibility of transferring detainees to U.S. facilities.

"Number one, they're dangerous," Young said. "Secondly, once they become present in the United States, what is their legal status? What is their constitutional status? I worry about that, because I don't want them to have the same constitutional rights that you and I have. They're our enemy."

Obama's decision to close the Guantanamo facility received immediate backing from his general election opponent, Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain.

McCain, in a joint statement with South Carolina GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham, said he supported Obama's decision to "begin a process that will, we hope, lead to the resolution of all cases of Guantanamo detainees."

But Thursday night on CNN's "Larry King Live," McCain said the new president may have been hasty in the decision and should have taken the time to consider everything associated with closing the camp before forcing himself into a timetable.

Specifically, McCain said he thought Obama needed to consider what would happen to the prisoners held at Guantanamo before ordering the facility to be closed.

"So, the easy part, in all due respect, is to say we're going to close Guantanamo," McCain said. "Then I think I would have said where they were going to be taken. Because you're going to run into a NIMBY [not in my backyard] problem here in the United States of America." Video Watch what may happen to Guantanamo's inmates »
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Asked about that issue Thursday, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, "We have developed some options in terms of how many we think could be returned to other countries to take them. That diplomatic initiative has not started. That will await work in carrying out the executive order."

"We have identified a number of possible prisons here in the United States" that could take the detainees. However, Gates added, "I've heard from members of Congress [representing] where all those prisons are located. Their enthusiasm is limited."

OzmO

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2009, 01:22:04 PM »
If you're talking about this kid, he was 14 when he was arrested. 

Judge orders release of young Gitmo detainee
He was identified as al-Qaida at 11, arrested by Pakistan police at 14
 U.S. District Judge Richard Leon ordered the release of Mohammed el Gharani, who was arrested by Pakistan police at 14.
 View related photos
Art Lien/NBC News 

updated 2:16 p.m. HT, Wed., Jan. 14, 2009
WASHINGTON - A federal judge on Wednesday ordered the military to release one of its first Guantanamo Bay detainees, a 21-year-old man who has been detained and accused of being a terrorist since he was 14.

Mohammed el Gharani, who is of Chadian nationality but had lived in Saudi Arabia, should be released from the U.S. prison in Cuba "forthwith," U.S. District Judge Richard Leon said in a ruling from the bench.

The military had accused el Gharani of being part of al-Qaida, working for the Taliban and fighting American forces in Afghanistan. However, Leon said those accusations were based on testimony from other Guantanamo Bay detainees, which he found unreliable.

Story continues below ↓

"Simply stated, a mosaic of tiles bearing images this murky reveals nothing about the petitioner with sufficient clarity, either individually or collectively, that can be relied upon by this court," Leon said.

El Gharani listened to the ruling live by telephone from Cuba but did not react.

He could be on his way home to his family in a few weeks, lawyer Zackary Katznelson said. "Judge Leon did justice today."

The government can appeal Leon's decision.

"We're disappointed by the ruling and will consider our options," Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said.

El Gharani was arrested in Pakistan in 2001 at a mosque by local police, and turned over to United States forces in 2002. He was one of the first Guantanamo Bay detainees and also one of the youngest.

Katznelson said el Gharani now has spent a third of his life in military prison in Cuba. "He never should have been in prison in the first place," Katznelson said.

He was accused of receiving military training from al-Qaida in Afghanistan and serving as a courier for several high-ranking members. He also is accused of fighting against U.S. and coalition forces at the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in late 2001 and of being a member of an al-Qaida cell based in London in 1998.

El Gharani denied all of the accusations.

The government's only evidence is statements made by two other Guantanamo Bay detainees whose credibility and reliability has been called into question by "government personnel," Leon said.

For example, El Gharani's lawyers pointed out that he would have been 11 in 1998, when he is accused of being part of an al-Qaida cell in England.

And "putting aside the obvious and unanswered questions as to how a Saudi minor from a very poor family could have even become a member of a London-based cell, the government simply advances no corroborating evidence for these statements it believes to be reliable from a fellow detainee, the basis of whose knowledge is — at best — unknown," Leon said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28660621/

So the kid didn't even kill anyone and he was put in an adult military prison for 7 years?

pathetic. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2009, 01:27:43 PM »
So the kid didn't even kill anyone and he was put in an adult military prison for 7 years?

pathetic. 

You're not bothered by the fact you debated imprisonment of an 11 year-old when it apparently never happened?  (kidding)

How do you know he wasn't segregated from the adults? 

OzmO

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2009, 01:34:03 PM »
You're not bothered by the fact you debated imprisonment of an 11 year-old when it apparently never happened?  (kidding)

How do you know he wasn't segregated from the adults? 

The 11 year was good debate because is was about principle.  I'm very glad it wasn't true.

About the 14 year old,

At the very least i hope he was segregated.  One of the problems are, unless there are other 14 year olds or kids his age imprisoned there, then he'd have been sorta in solitary confinement.

14 years old is a borderline age.  It's hard to say either way, in war, what should be done.  I do know that, he shouldn't be at a adult military prison camp.

There are many difficult issues here because of the difference between this and a traditional war.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2009, 01:36:59 PM »
The 11 year was good debate because is was about principle.  I'm very glad it wasn't true.

About the 14 year old,

At the very least i hope he was segregated.  One of the problems are, unless there are other 14 year olds or kids his age imprisoned there, then he'd have been sorta in solitary confinement.

14 years old is a borderline age.  It's hard to say either way, in war, what should be done.  I do know that, he shouldn't be at a adult military prison camp.

There are many difficult issues here because of the difference between this and a traditional war.

Yep.  Tough decisions.  Not sure what we should do.  We can't simply view and treat them precisely the way we treat U.S. citizens, including minors.  These are people who are willing to blow themselves up for their cause.  Our kids aren't like that.  It's a completely different mindset. 

OzmO

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2009, 01:47:17 PM »
Yep.  Tough decisions.  Not sure what we should do.  We can't simply view and treat them precisely the way we treat U.S. citizens, including minors.  These are people who are willing to blow themselves up for their cause.  Our kids aren't like that.  It's a completely different mindset. 

Ah yes, the good old days of war, when it was country vs county.   >:( ;D

I agree we can't give them full rights and treatment that we give US citizens, but we should treat children with decency and do what's right.

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #113 on: January 23, 2009, 02:01:15 PM »
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tonymctones

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2009, 02:20:00 PM »
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dont worry everything will be ok now that obama is president rainbows everyday and free money for all!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2009, 02:24:39 PM »
Dont worry everything will be ok now that obama is president rainbows everyday and free money for all!!!!!!!!!
Are you crazy. Obama has a direct line to Osama Bin Laden..
Oh shit Obama.... Osama.... Hussien...Sadam...holy shit. The end of days is tomorrow, everyone get your emergency packs... :o :o

This is serious business. First he is going to let the Getmo terrosits loose on the streets of America...and then he is going to take everyones money and keep it for himself

tonymctones

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2009, 02:30:55 PM »
Are you crazy. Obama has a direct line to Osama Bin Laden..
Oh shit Obama.... Osama.... Hussien...Sadam...holy shit. The end of days is tomorrow, everyone get your emergency packs... :o :o

This is serious business. First he is going to let the Getmo terrosits loose on the streets of America...and then he is going to take everyones money and keep it for himself
I thought he was going to bring everybody together and we would all sing kumbya while we all pull our my money together and everybody will love each other just like his pastor preeches, no?

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #117 on: January 23, 2009, 02:34:02 PM »
I thought he was going to bring everybody together and we would all sing kumbya while we all pull our my money together and everybody will love each other just like his pastor preeches, no?

According to Hannity, Bill O and Beck...dude our families arent safe and he is going to let killers teach kindergarden

tonymctones

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #118 on: January 23, 2009, 02:35:47 PM »
According to Hannity, Bill O and Beck...dude our families arent safe and he is going to let killers teach kindergarden
vid or your a liar  ;D (getbig style)

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #119 on: January 23, 2009, 02:57:26 PM »

tonymctones

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #120 on: January 23, 2009, 03:10:29 PM »
my camera broke., i dont know how to upload

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Daily_Show_Fox_attacks_Obama_on_0123.html
LOL  ;D
According to Hannity, Bill O and Beck...dude our families arent safe and he is going to let killers teach kindergarden
They didnt say anything about killers teaching kindergarden  >:(

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2009, 03:30:17 PM »
Ah yes, the good old days of war, when it was country vs county.   >:( ;D

I agree we can't give them full rights and treatment that we give US citizens, but we should treat children with decency and do what's right.

What is the right thing to do to a 14yr old kid shooting at US soldiers? We dont know because we have never had to deal with that (unless you count the Hitler youth). This is something forgein to a civilized country. You cant try the kid for attempted murder can you? If you do then where are you going to send him? Back to his country,a US jail in protective custody for life? I dont know but this is something that we as a nation are going to have to deal with quickly. I dont think that you can rehabilate him either. So its either back to his home country where he will be unsupervised or a US prison where he will be monitered 24/7. ???

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2009, 03:43:34 PM »
What is the right thing to do to a 14yr old kid shooting at US soldiers? We dont know because we have never had to deal with that (unless you count the Hitler youth). This is something forgein to a civilized country. You cant try the kid for attempted murder can you? If you do then where are you going to send him? Back to his country,a US jail in protective custody for life? I dont know but this is something that we as a nation are going to have to deal with quickly. I dont think that you can rehabilate him either. So its either back to his home country where he will be unsupervised or a US prison where he will be monitered 24/7. ???

From what i understand his imprisonment wasn't about him shooting and killing a US soldier.  But, let's say for the sake of debate he did. 

Like i was saying earlier, 14 years old is a tough age because it's right in the age spectrum of accountability.  It's an age that very in flux.  In a traditional war, I'd say he needs to put in a prison camp with people of the same age group if possible and released when the war ends if there isn't any charges of war crimes.

But this isn't a traditional war.  We are not fighting a uniformed army representing a country.  We are fighting what amount to criminals and religious zealots who want our total destruction.  That to me qualifies as "insane."  He should be institutionalized with the likely possibility of serving time in prison for murder.   But he shouldn't have been sent to Gitmo, because the only thing that experience will do is strengthen his resolve for acts of violence once he's released. 

scooter

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Re: Ok, Now Where Do They Go?
« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2009, 03:52:38 PM »
From what i understand his imprisonment wasn't about him shooting and killing a US soldier.  But, let's say for the sake of debate he did. 

Like i was saying earlier, 14 years old is a tough age because it's right in the age spectrum of accountability.  It's an age that very in flux.  In a traditional war, I'd say he needs to put in a prison camp with people of the same age group if possible and released when the war ends if there isn't any charges of war crimes.

But this isn't a traditional war.  We are not fighting a uniformed army representing a country.  We are fighting what amount to criminals and religious zealots who want our total destruction.  That to me qualifies as "insane."  He should be institutionalized with the likely possibility of serving time in prison for murder.   But he shouldn't have been sent to Gitmo, because the only thing that experience will do is strengthen his resolve for acts of violence once he's released. 

the article said suspected for fighting with terrorist so I assumed that was what it was. went back and reread it. either way

I think that is a good Idea, see what we can do with these kids that are brainwashed maybe we can change them? If not then prison at 18? With protective custody? Tough questions that need to be dealt with. Where should the kid be held if not at gitmo?