Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin

[loco]

The point here is that proof of evolution far out weighs proof of creation.

Okay.  Who said I have proof for creation?  Forget about creation.  How about answering my questions?  Or are you simply repeating something you read without really thinking for yourself?

Such as?  Give me proof of evolutionary change above the level of species.

So?  The vast majority of educated scientist genetic biologists etc., have been wrong before, and they can and they will be wrong again.  Neither Science nor Truth are a democracy. 

Sorry, I'm not following.  What are you trying to say here?

[OzmO]

So we are animals?  Then what did you find insulting about my previous post?

Very simple, you were possibly inferring i was thinking like a lower animal without a soul.   

If you believe this, then chimps are a higher animal then their ancestors.  We are higher animals only in relation to chimps.  We are lower animals in relation to a higher, non-human, future species which will evolve from us, our decedents.  If you believe that we are nothing but "higher" animals who evolved from chimps, what makes you think that we are so special to God?

Chimps are not from what i understand about evolution.  We are higher animals then any on earth by far.  And in 10 of thousands of years we will be all one race, and millions of years after, if we survive, we will evolve, or course if that's the plan from the man above.

[Dos Equis]

A Slice of Infinity
Monkey See, Monkey Do
by Stuart McAllister

A friend was chatting about Christianity with an agnostic who believed that the evidence for evolution was strong and that this belief was true. Now, what is unique is not this individual’s belief. Many people believe this very thing; they think that all of us human beings are products of evolutionary processes. But Charles Darwin, the father of evolutionary theory, expresses grave doubts about this belief being true. He states, “With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?”

You see, Darwin expresses here, the irony of his own view and the impact of the theory that he has just proposed. He is truly skeptical that a purely random evolutionary process—a process not guided by a creator—can explain the existence of our mind; more specifically, the existence of a mind that accurately portrays the world around us. For you see, if we have no reason to think that our minds accurately portray the world around us, then we have no reason for believing in evolution either.

Let me try and make this a little clearer. A colleague used to have pet monkeys in their backyard. Wanting to teach these monkeys a few tricks, they used food as a stimulus to get the monkeys to do what they wanted. I wish I could say that they trained them to do all their chores for them, but that would be stretching the truth much too far! The point here, though, is that what they were concerned with was these monkeys’ behavior. They couldn’t care less what the reason was for them doing what they were doing.

This bears a certain analogy to our discussion of evolution. If evolution is a blind mechanism that is selective according to behavior, what reason do we have for thinking that our beliefs accurately represent the world around us? Maybe we are just like the monkeys behaving the way we do because we were manipulated by nature.

But here is the rub—and it is at the heart of Darwin’s doubt. If we are merely like the monkeys, manipulated by nature, then we have no reason to think that evolution is true. Let me repeat that: If we are like the monkeys, manipulated by nature, then we have no reason to think evolution is true. We only have the thoughts we do about evolution because we are manipulated into thinking them.

Perhaps a more plausible view comes from the contrast given to us from the wisdom of God. Our rationality and our ability to reason is derivative from a Creator God in whose image we are made. Indeed the very fact that we are having this discussion may be a signpost to a higher source of reason than mere nature, may it not?

© 2008 Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. All Rights Reserved.

Good commentary.

[loco]

Very simple, you were possibly inferring i was thinking like a lower animal without a soul.   

No.  How did you get that from my post?  You just said, like I did, that we are animals.

What proof do you have that we have a soul?  What proof do you have that animals do not have a soul?

Chimps are not from what i understand about evolution.  We are higher animals then any on earth by far.  And in 10 of thousands of years we will be all one race, and millions of years after, if we survive, we will evolve, or course if that's the plan from the man above.

Okay...where did you get all this from?

[loco]

By the way, I know that nobody who accepts Darwin's theory of evolution is saying that humans evolved from chimps, but rather that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

[OzmO]

Okay.  Who said I have proof for creation?  Forget about creation.  How about answering my questions?  Or are you simply repeating something you read without really thinking for yourself?

I never said you did.   I made a simple statement and didn't expand to answer your question which would involve long research on macroevolution which has been debated and discussed in length and with out expertise in cut and paste fashion on this forum.

What I'm doing is thinking for myself.  It doesn't look like you are.  It looks like your allegiance to your beliefs and the Bible are doing your thinking for you even in the blatant evidence of humans sharing 90%+ the DNA of apes and still holding on the idea that we did not evolve and finding anything weak as it is, like an argument about 90% versus 98% to prove your point.

[OzmO]

By the way, I know that nobody who accepts Darwin's theory of evolution is saying that humans evolved from chimps, but rather that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

Yeah, APES

[loco]

I never said you did.   I made a simple statement and didn't expand to answer your question which would involve long research on macroevolution which has been debated and discussed in length and with out expertise in cut and paste fashion on this forum.

What I'm doing is thinking for myself.  It doesn't look like you are.  It looks like your allegiance to your beliefs and the Bible are doing your thinking for you even in the blatant evidence of humans sharing 90%+ the DNA of apes and still holding on the idea that we did not evolve and finding anything weak as it is, like an argument about 90% versus 98% to prove your point.

Way to dodge the issue.  You claim that chimps and humans share a common ancestor.  You said that you accept this, not only because part of human and chimp DNA are 96% similar, but because you claim there is "far more things to support evolution than that simple fact".  I ask you to support what you posted and you change the subject.  

I claim faith, not proof.  You claimed proof.  Where is your proof?

[loco]

OzmO,

What proof do you have that humans have a soul?  What proof do you have that chimps do not have a soul?

Chimps are not from what i understand about evolution.  We are higher animals then any on earth by far.  And in 10 of thousands of years we will be all one race, and millions of years after, if we survive, we will evolve, or course if that's the plan from the man above.

Where did you get all this from?

[OzmO]

Way to dodge the issue.  You claim that chimps and humans share a common ancestor.  You said that you accept this, not only because part of human and chimp DNA are 96% similar, but because you claim there is "far more things to support evolution than that simple fact".  I ask you to support what you posted and you change the subject. 

I claim faith, not proof.  You claimed proof.  Where is your proof?

I'm not dodging the issue loco, I'm simply not willing to debate an issue that deeply in science and am not willing to do the research that the related scientific community already has done.  If you want me to regurgitate all that has been posted, i would rather you just go back and read it in this forum starting with Johnny Apollo's posts.   , But all ready know that...

Go back the point at hand.  Evidence of evolution far  outweighs evidence creationism. 

All that you've posted so far today on this thread is an attempt to dodge this very fact.

[OzmO]

OzmO,

What proof do you have that humans have a soul?  What proof do you have that chimps do not have a soul?

None, other than personal experiences and faith.

Where did you get all this from?

What parts exactly?  We are higher than any others on earth?  Is that not obvious to you?  Becoming one race?  Simple logic.  cross marrying/breeding  of races increase with mobility on earth.

[loco]

I'm not dodging the issue loco, I'm simply not willing to debate an issue that deeply in science and am not willing to do the research that the related scientific community already has done. 

So you have accepted a theory and made a claim without first doing your research to support your claim?  So you finally admit that you've decided to place your faith blindly in today's scientific community?

That's cool.  You are free to do that.

If you want me to regurgitate all that has been posted, i would rather you just go back and read it in this forum starting with Johnny Apollo's posts.   , But all ready know that...

Go back the point at hand.  Evidence of evolution far  outweighs evidence creationism. 

All that you've posted so far today on this thread is an attempt to dodge this very fact.

What?  Your first post on this thread was about human and chimp DNA similarities.  That's the point at hand, not creationism.  You made a claim that you can't support.  It's that simple.

[OzmO]

So you have accepted a theory and made a claim without first doing your research to support your claim?  So you finally admit that you've decided to place your faith blindly in today's scientific community?

That's cool.  You are free to do that.

Just as free to blindly accept a book of stories is the word of God.  However, what i accept has far more evidence behind it even though i don't care to delve into it, by going to college for it.

What?  Your first post on this thread was about human and chimp DNA similarities.  That's the point at hand, not creationism.  You made a claim that you can't support.  It's that simple.

No, I made a claim that is supported.  If i said chimp then i mistakenly type it instead of Ape.  Fact is we are 98% ape and the weak arguement of us being 96 or 92 or 90 is moot and brings us back to my point:

Evidence for evolution far out weighs that of the book of stories.   

[loco]

None, other than personal experiences and faith.

Okay.  So you have faith that humans have a soul and you have faith that chimps do not.  I have faith that humans were created by God in our present form, and you have no proof that this is not so.  If you do, why did you not present it when I asked?

What parts exactly?  We are higher than any others on earth?  Is that not obvious to you?  Becoming one race?  Simple logic.  cross marrying/breeding  of races increase with mobility on earth.

If humans evolved from apes, what makes you think that in the future there won't be a non-human, higher species that will look at us and treat us like we look at chimps and like we treat chimps?

What makes you think that you are not acting on instinct and that everything you do is not simply dictated to you by your genetics?

[Colossus_500]

The point here is that proof of evolution far out weighs proof of creation.

 

depends on who you ask, don't you think, bro?

[loco]

Just as free to blindly accept a book of stories is the word of God.  However, what i accept has far more evidence behind it even though i don't care to delve into it, by going to college for it.

Here we go again.  Far more evidence?  Really?  Such as?

And way to go resorting to insulting my intelligence and education.  I went to a secular university and got a bachelors degree in science.  

No, I made a claim that is supported.  If i said chimp then i mistakenly type it instead of Ape.  Fact is we are 98% ape and the weak arguement of us being 96 or 92 or 90 is moot and brings us back to my point:

You didn't even understand what I posted.  Regardless of the percentage of similarities, this applies to only the regions of our DNA that result in proteins.

Evidence for evolution far out weighs that of the book of stories.  

Okay, fine.  Show me the evidence.

Just because part of human and chimp DNA are similar, it does not follow that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

[OzmO]

Okay.  So you have faith that humans have a soul and you have faith that chimps do not. 

I'd hope that animals have souls too.  I miss my dog from when i was young.  But i don't know.

I have faith that humans were created by God in our present form, and you have no proof that this is not so.  If you do, why did you not present it when I asked?

Do I need to cut and paste every article and research result on evolution on the net? 

Pretty weak position to argue loco.  It's too bad that your faith has so little to support it that you must resort this tactic of debating.

And you are saying that becuase i can't prove that it's not so, it is there fore so? 

If humans involved from apes, what makes you think that in the future there won't be a non-human, higher species that will look at us and treat us like we look at chimps and like we treat chimps?

It's quite possible.  Especially with the advancement and reliance of machines. 

What makes you think that you are not acting on instinct and that everything you do is not simply dictated to you by your genetics?

Quite a few things we do are.  But at the core we have the power to chose our actions.  I may feel the urge to "cheat" on my wife becuase of instinctive sexual attraction but i chose not to act on it.  I don't buy in to the idea that our choices are governed by genetics.  We either are in control of our bodies or not.  That is a path to a higher self.

Here we go again.  Far more evidence?  Really?  Such as?

I gave you one.  98% DNA match to apes.  How about you give one supporting creation that's has a scientific relation (not scripture like Greek mythology).

That in its self (98% DNA) is very compelling.  What's compelling about creationism other then pseudo science?   Mater of fact, you haven't posted anything other than trying to discredit my assertion any way you can which shows how weak your position is.

You didn't even understand what I posted.  Regardless of the percentage of similarities, this applies to only the regions of our DNA that result in proteins.

That doesn't change anything.  we are 98% ape, we are 90% ape.  It is what it is.

Okay, fine.  Show me the evidence.

Just because part of human and chimp DNA are similar, it does not follow that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

It puts into question the details of the divine creation form the book of stories that were created in God's image......98% APE.

[OzmO]

depends on who you ask, don't you think, bro?

So I'm asking.  What is the evidence of creation when in the bible it says we were created in God's image and we are 98% Ape.  What is the evidence of us being created from what ever it was we were created?

If we are unique creations why do we share so much in common with APEs?  (not totally of course)

[loco]

OzmO,
This is ridiculous.  You started off by saying that 98% of human and chimp DNA are similar.  I pointed out that they are not as similar as people would like you to believe and I show you why. 

You go from that to asking me for proof of creation and insulting my education?  What is that all about?  I can understand if I post something about creation and you asked me for proof, but here you make a claim and when challenged you ask for proof of creation? 

You've posted one logical fallacy after after another.

Forget I believe in creation.  Forget I believe in God and the Bible.

Just because part of human and chimp DNA are similar, it does not follow that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

Even if there was no God, no creation and no Bible, it does not follow that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

[Deedee]

So I'm asking.  What is the evidence of creation when in the bible it says we were created in God's image and we are 98% Ape.  What is the evidence of us being created from what ever it was we were created?

If we are unique creations why do we share so much in common with APEs?  (not totally of course)

Maybe God scooped up the same handful of dust he used to create us? 

People take offense to the thought of evolving from animals, but ultimately, if you go back to the very beginnings, the choices are basically that we came from goo, or dust. I, among some here, choose goo, others prefer dust.

[Butterbean]

DUST RULES!!!











 

[Deedee]

 

STella, I only have a few seconds tonight, but I will answer that question you asked about the premonitions thing in the next few days. That's why dreams interest me so much, and probably why I'm an atheist.

[OzmO]

Loco, this is what i started off saying:

I wonder why we were "created" with DNA that's a 98% a match of apes?

Is that true?

I don't why you insist is said chimps to start off.  Maybe it's becuase it allows you to point out a fallacy.

I pointed out that they are not as similar as people would like you to believe and I show you why.

What difference does it make what you pointed out?   We are talking about the basic building blocks of DNA that are 92 to 98% exact depending on who you ask.

You go from that to asking me for proof of creation and insulting my education?  What is that all about?

How did i insult your education?  I did not mean to.  I apologize if i did. 

You are a well educated person and very knowledgeable.   If anything i see you desperately doing anything to discount what is more than obvious.  Evidence for evolution far out weighs creationism.  And 98% DNA is very telling of where we came from.

You've posted one logical fallacy after after another.

Such as what?

What is illogical about what i said?   That evidence for evolution is strong?  That my belief in a soul is based on faith?  That I'd like to see my dog "Mishy" when i die? 

Or is it that your tactic for debating was to somehow show that my assertion about evolution is based on belief also?  that only shows your weak argument.  It's not based on belief.  It's based on scientific analysis, research, experimentation etc...  And not my own, it's from practically the entire scientific community save those psuedo scientists who write articles and have degrees from Christian universities.

 

Just because part of human and chimp DNA are similar, it does not follow that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

Part?  (you mean ape) 

How about nearly all.

And becuase it is 98% ape, it puts into question the "book of storeis" (Bible) regarding made in his (god) image.......image of 98% APE?  hmmmm.

Even if there was no God, no creation and no Bible, it does not follow that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

This is what cracks me up about conspiracy theorists and people who put beliefs over facts.  They will do anything to defend them even to the point of absurdity.

It does everything to follow short of our ability to witness macro evolution in action. 

[OzmO]

Maybe God scooped up the same handful of dust he used to create us? 

People take offense to the thought of evolving from animals, but ultimately, if you go back to the very beginnings, the choices are basically that we came from goo, or dust. I, among some here, choose goo, others prefer dust.

I like goo better,  you can do more with it.   

[spotter]

Yep, he turns 200 next year!!!

San Francisco Chronicle
Cal scientist reflects on Darwin's genius
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/11/BAGBUSGBL.DTL&type=science

Hi Columbus:
 

Has it been 199 years already???