Natural stack, alternative to 'roids

[MCWAY]

Take it from someone who has bulked up and leaned down MULTIPLE times for competition! (ME)....

Do you gain muscle when you bulk up?  Sure you do... you need to exceed your caloric requirements to do so.

Is all the weight that you gain when you bulk up going to be muscle?  HELL NO!!!


Here is an example:

In Spring 2003 I competed at 172, then bulked up that entire year after and got up to 230

In Spring 2004 I competed at 176.  But I was much leaner, and looked significantly better. 


Was bulking up to 230 beneficial?  Probably not...  thats not to say that bulking up was a bad idea.... maybe would've been better if I had only gotten up to 210 or 215


ITS VERY VERY VERY hard to put on muscle without putting on fat.  I got in a long chat with Layne Norton about this (laugh all you want... the guy has a fucking PhD in this shit) and he was saying, especially for long time experienced bodybuilders, that its very hard to put on lean muscle mass while staying ripped year round.  He himself follows a certain protocol where he gains weight in the off-season (both muscle and fat) and then he will take 50 weeks and diet down VERY slowly to get ready for shows.  And he believes if he was staying in contest shape year round, there is no way he'd be putting on more muscle and making all the gains that he would make if he puts on a little bit of fat.


MCWAY makes some very valid points.  Gaining fat is beneficial to also gaining muscle, as long as you don't crash diet for a show you are bound to maintain a good amount of muscle.  Again, thats not to say that becoming a fat ass (like yours truly ) in the off-season is a good idea... far from it.

EXACTAMUNDO!!

Even Arnold himself is noted as saying you sculpt a block of granite, not a pebble As much as folk worship the Oak here on Getbig, you'd think they actually take some of his advice to heart.

But, not our sniveling "perma-leaner" brethren. They'll be a a buck sixty, until they day they die. But, at least they'll have abs.

As you said, dieting slowly is the key to minimizing muscle loss.

Look at Ronnie in his prime. When he was competed in the 250-260 range, he was around 300 in the off-season.

[HappyGorilla]

EXACTAMUNDO!!

Even Arnold himself is noted as saying you sculpt a block of granite, not a pebble As much as folk worship the Oak here on Getbig, you'd think they actually take some of his advice to heart.

But, not our sniveling "perma-leaner" brethren. They'll be a a buck sixty, until they day they die. But, at least they'll have abs.

As you said, dieting slowly is the key to minimizing muscle loss.

Look at Ronnie in his prime. When he was competed in the 250-260 range, he was around 300 in the off-season.

You're a fuckin troll clearly.

[dj181]

mclean, any bodybuilder should have somewhat visible abs year round,if they dont its simply a fatso or powerlifter.

what would you say is the upper acceptable limit with regards to bodyfat %?

[anabolichalo]

such a figure would not be useful as it requires dexa scan or unter water weighing to accurately assess bf%^^^^^^^^^^

[BIG ACH]

You're an idiot who looked like a fat turd and impressed your fuckin family with your clothes on, you can hide the fat bloated mess you are to untrained people or people delusional like yourself.

Big ACH what is your fucking point? You just said you gained like 60 lbs and dieted down after a year for a total of 4 lbs? That's 4 lbs out of 60 lol. This guy claimed 20 lbs of muscle in 6 months. Every highschool kid does this, maybe entering university. Eat big, pull 450-500 lbs, hit a 300 lb bench and think the 50 lbs they gained is all muscle. Then they diet from 220 and lean down to 170 and reality hits. Or they stay like mcway, permanently delusional.

First of all it was more than 4 lbs because I was actually leaner than the year before.....  but I think had I gone up to 215 or so instead of 230 and dieted longer, I would've been bigger on contest day, maybe 180 or 182 something like that.  

My point is that to put on a good amount of muscle you need to be exceeding your caloric requirements, and to do that you are bound to gain some fat.  

[dj181]

such a figure would not be useful as it requires dexa scan or unter water weighing to accurately assess bf%^^^^^^^^^^

not really

if one isn't a totally clueless dipshit then bodyfat % can be "seen" by looking in the mirror

this here is roughly 7%

[anabolichalo]

not really

if one isn't a totally clueless dipshit then bodyfat % can be "seen" by looking in the mirror

this here is roughly 7%

all bro science

[BIG ACH]

not really

if one isn't a totally clueless dipshit then bodyfat % can be "seen" by looking in the mirror

this here is roughly 7%

See I would've said thats 6%.... someone else would've said thats 8%.....

Its all voodoo 

[anabolichalo]

further more you are not assessing the obscene amounts of visceral fat all these blimps are carrying

[dj181]

See I would've said thats 6%.... someone else would've said thats 8%.....

Its all voodoo 

 

[MCWAY]

You're an idiot who looked like a fat turd and impressed your fuckin family with your clothes on, you can hide the fat bloated mess you are to untrained people or people delusional like yourself.

Wrong again, Banana-breath!!! Not only did I NOT look like a fat turd, I ended up getting that age-old question one gets when he puts on some size: Are you taking steroids, the answer to which was NO!!

Ironically enough, a month after I got home, my friends and I went on our usual trip to the very place, where I DON'T hide my alleged fat-bloated mess: Wet-N-Wild, in Orlando, FL.

So, you and your fellow perma-leaners can continue to wail about your woeful gains and lament how you can hardly lift the toilet seat without a syringe.

Steroid users with great genetics don't even put on pure muscle all the time. Yet, goofies like you think, somehow (with that mystical magic stack of 'roids), you're going to put on nothing but lean muscle constantsly while staying ripped......all on near-minimal amounts of protein.

Big ACH what is your fucking point? You just said you gained like 60 lbs and dieted down after a year for a total of 4 lbs? That's 4 lbs out of 60 lol. This guy claimed 20 lbs of muscle in 6 months. Every highschool kid does this, maybe entering university. Eat big, pull 450-500 lbs, hit a 300 lb bench and think the 50 lbs they gained is all muscle. Then they diet from 220 and lean our 170 and reality hits. Or they stay like mcway, permanently delusional.

Someone get this guy a clue and some reading lessons. Neither one of us said that the weight we gained was all muscle. Maybe if reading were fundamental to you, you would have realized that.

[MCWAY]

You're a fuckin troll clearly.

Clueless and way off the mark, AGAIN!! I've been on this forum for years (almost a decade, now that I think about it).

And, I'll be here, when you crawl your sniveling perma-leaner hind quarters back to where you came, while your buddies ask you if you're smoking crack, not if you lift weights.

[HappyGorilla]

First of all it was more than 4 lbs because I was actually leaner than the year before.....  but I think had I gone up to 215 or so instead of 230 and dieted longer, I would've been bigger on contest day, maybe 180 or 182 something like that.  

My point is that to put on a good amount of muscle you need to be exceeding your caloric requirements, and to do that you are bound to gain some fat.  

If you are going to use Layne Norton as your example, then maybe you should add he only suggests adding 1-2 lbs a month. We all know you need to gain fat and be in a caloric surplus. But what is the point in gaining 60 lbs? Furthermore, you are saying it is possible to gain 20 lbs of muscle in 6 months, that was MCKAYS areguement. Yet you even admit to gaining all that weight, yet end up 170's , you were in the 170's when you started.

[HappyGorilla]

Clueless and way off the mark, AGAIN!! I've been on this forum for years (almost a decade, now that I think about it).

And, I'll be here, when you crawl your sniveling perma-leaner hind quarters back to where you came, while your buddies ask you if you're smoking crack, not if you lift weights.

Ah you shut up idiot. I don't even read your stupid posts. Too long.

[MCWAY]

If you are going to use Layne Norton as your example, then maybe you should add he only suggests adding 1-2 lbs a month. We all know you need to gain fat and be in a caloric surplus. But what is the point in gaining 60 lbs? Furthermore, you are saying it is possible to gain 20 lbs of muscle in 6 months, that was MCKAYS areguement. Yet you even admit to gaining all that weight, yet end up 170's , you were in the 170's when you started.

NOOOOO....that was not my argument. Can someone teach this guy to read, please?

My argument was and remains that NOBODY puts on lean muscle all the time, period.

If steroid-using, genetically-gifted bodybuilders can't do it, what makes you think delusional perma-leaners like YOU can?

Oh, that's right. You and AnabolicHalo are just waiting to find that magic stack of steroids, to stick in your rumps.

[MCWAY]

Ah you shut up idiot. I don't even read your stupid posts. Too long.

That's to be expected from a clueless perma-leaner like you. Anything more than two sentences sizzles your tender skull.

further more you are not assessing the obscene amounts of visceral fat all these blimps are carrying

When people assess the amount of muscle you and HappyGorilla are carrying, they start singing, "We Are The World".

[BIG ACH]

If you are going to use Layne Norton as your example, then maybe you should add he only suggests adding 1-2 lbs a month. We all know you need to gain fat and be in a caloric surplus. But what is the point in gaining 60 lbs? Furthermore, you are saying it is possible to gain 20 lbs of muscle in 6 months, that was MCKAYS areguement. Yet you even admit to gaining all that weight, yet end up 170's , you were in the 170's when you started.

Are you just making up shit???  

1.  I SPECIFICALLY said it was NOT beneficial gaining 60 lbs over my contest weight
2.  I never said its possible to gain 20 lbs in 6 months...  Actually I never said any sort of numbers.  All I said was, in order to put on a good amount of quality muscle you need to put on a little bit of fat.
3.  Layne's off-season strategy was to bulk for 4-6 weeks, and cut for 2 weeks, rinse and repeat. And he said on MD that he was always aiming for 1 lbs  a week weight gain, but now aims for 0.5 lbs a week.  Whats your point man?

[SquatsRule]

Cell-Tech wasn't even on the market, back when I was in college and didn't hit the stores until I GRADUATED.

But, thanks for playing. You and your fellow "perma-leaners" can continue to whine and bleat, while people hold telethons to raise money so you can eat.

Hahahaha! I never said you took Celltech. You have what I call "celltech delusion." It's similar to imagenary lat syndrome. You claimed you put on atleast ten pounds of lean mass in three months which is basically impossible for a natural. That is why I asked if you took photos or measured your bodyfat percentage. Anybody can put on that much fat and water. You also have no idea who I am or how long I've been training. I'm not a perma leaner but I never go over 15% bodyfat for several reasons.

[BIG ACH]

Hahahaha! I never said you took Celltech. You have what I call "celltech delusion." It's similar to imagenary lat syndrome. You claimed you put on atleast ten pounds of lean mass in three months which is basically impossible for a natural. That is why I asked if you took photos or measured your bodyfat percentage. Anybody can put on that much fat and water. You also have no idea who I am or how long I've been training. I'm not a perma leaner but I never go over 15% bodyfat for several reasons.

I think 15% is a great bf to be at for putting on muscle.  I'm more referring to people who stay sub 10%

[dj181]

something like this:

a guy on juice wont do himself any favors if hes fatter than 12%.(lipids gonna be very bad, estrogen issues will be bad).
so a guy on juice shouldnt go higher than that.id even say 10%, but 12 is the top limit.
ok,if one is 15% and wants to diet anyway, he can go on juice but should should straight away diet down(still better than to diet naturaly).

so if a juicer wants be fatter than that bc he feels like eating what he wants, hed best come off until hes motivated again.

for a natural, well, even 15% is ok, but for the asteatics sake they shouldnt go higher than 13%.

agreed about the 12% limit, but you think one would really get estrogen issues @ 12%

seems to me that would happen at a much higher % something like 18-20%

[El Diablo Blanco]

agreed about the 12% limit, but you think one would really get estrogen issues @ 12%

seems to me that would happen at a much higher % something like 18-20%

Bro science at it's bullshit finest right here in the last few posts.  why not 13% or 14%?  maybe 17%  lol.

Fact is you can take 10 dudes at the same weight and bodyfat, give them all the same diet, the same workout, the same drugs and chances are their muscle gain and fat loss will be all over the map compared to each other.

[MCWAY]

Hahahaha! I never said you took Celltech. You have what I call "celltech delusion." It's similar to imagenary lat syndrome. You claimed you put on atleast ten pounds of lean mass in three months which is basically impossible for a natural. That is why I asked if you took photos or measured your bodyfat percentage. Anybody can put on that much fat and water. You also have no idea who I am or how long I've been training. I'm not a perma leaner but I never go over 15% bodyfat for several reasons.

If my main concern were putting on size, why would I be measuring my bodyfat? There are these things called MIRRORS, which can pretty much give me an assessment of how my progress was going. I didn't run around frantically, with a pair of calipers every two days, thinking, Gosh!! I hope I'm still lean!!

I'm not the one, whining about what supposedly is "basically impossible for a natural". That's the goofy mentality that keeps perma-leaners puny. "I can't do this, because I'm natural"; "I can't do that, because I'm natural." "I can't tie my shoe, because I'm natural". "I can't start my lawnmower, because I'm natural."

As I said, I was simply trying to hit 200 by semester's end. But, I reach that mark ahead of schedule (March 20, 1996, to be exact). So, I kept going, until I hit 210. Even the guys larger than me noticed my progress and encouraged me to keep up the good work.

It's a good thing I did this, before I joined Getbig and found out how "impossible" it is. Otherwise, I'd still be 189 lbs.  

[BIG ACH]

something like this:

a guy on juice wont do himself any favors if hes fatter than 12%.(lipids gonna be very bad, estrogen issues will be bad).
so a guy on juice shouldnt go higher than that.id even say 10%, but 12 is the top limit.
ok,if one is 15% and wants to diet anyway, he can go on juice but should should straight away diet down(still better than to diet naturaly).

so if a juicer wants be fatter than that bc he feels like eating what he wants, hed best come off until hes motivated again.

for a natural, well, even 15% is ok, but for the asteatics sake they shouldnt go higher than 13%.

Come on man.... do you REALLY think you can tell the difference between 13% and 15%???  come on man! lol

[dj181]

Come on man.... do you REALLY think you can tell the difference between 13% and 15%???  come on man! lol

15 can

[njflex]

8 to 10 is nice zone,,8 for the looks end of things veins and abs but not low zone 6 or less which will kill energy/strenght for the long haul good temp look,,,10/12 pct still can grow on ..now some guys are 12 pct and have veins and abs showing ..depends on skin shows the look the leaner/drier.