Author Topic: Lee Haney - the greatest Mr. O of all time!  (Read 33408 times)

Hulkster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22968
  • ND ran away from me
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #100 on: March 15, 2013, 01:41:48 PM »
Quote
If you count being the best by flawless victories, Dorian wins cause in all his Olympia wins he did not lose a single round, so his victories, once already at the top, were unrivaled by any Olympian winner.


but you also have to count that dorian's numbers were the biggest scam in the history of bodybuilding.

this one a perfect score in the symmetry round in 1994: ::)

enough said. shawn ray was the rightful winner that year.
Flower Boy Ran Away

TrueGrit

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15192
  • Big dude...all the way big dude.
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2013, 01:44:05 PM »
TL, DR. Serge Nubret for the win:




One of the best pictures in the history of bodybuilding.
O

Wiggs

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40808
  • Child of Y'srael
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2013, 01:45:00 PM »
Yeah, those perfect scores mean shit to me when He had one arm in 94, 95, 96, 97...That should tell you something right there.  He more than likely deserved to win in 94-96 but with perfect scores, no. Perfect scores mean you have no flaws. Dorian's waist and one arms ruined his, "perfection".
7

OTHstrong

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14122
  • Jasher
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2013, 01:45:51 PM »
but you also have to count that dorian's numbers were the biggest scam in the history of bodybuilding.

this one a perfect score in the symmetry round in 1994: ::)

enough said.
So be it, fine, they are the biggest scam, so you are admitting that based on the numbers (even though the numbers are a scam) Dorian is the greatest of all time right?

OTHstrong

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14122
  • Jasher
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2013, 01:47:50 PM »
Yeah, those perfect scores mean shit to me when He had one arm in 94, 95, 96, 97...That should tell you something right there.  He more than likely deserved to win in 94-96 but with perfect scores, no. Perfect scores mean you have no flaws. Dorian's waist and one arms ruined his, "perfection".
Yes but they mean a lot in discussions where we are trying to figure out what the judges would do in any given scenario, after all these are the judges doing.

Hulkster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22968
  • ND ran away from me
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2013, 01:48:13 PM »
So be it, fine, they are the biggest scam, so you are admitting that based on the numbers (even though the numbers are a scam) Dorian is the greatest of all time right?

no because Ronnie has more Mr. O wins than dorian and the highest number of pro wins by anyone.

so, by numbers and by real life physique, Ronnie is the greatest of all time
Flower Boy Ran Away

OTHstrong

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14122
  • Jasher
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2013, 01:51:44 PM »
no because Ronnie has more Mr. O wins than dorian and the highest number of pro wins by anyone.

so, by numbers and by real life physique, Ronnie is the greatest of all time
But the numbers show flawless victories and Ronnie does not have 6 Olympia titles without rounds losts.

The Sun Tzu said; The greatest general is not the one with the most wins, it'is the one with the fewest losses.

Wiggs

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40808
  • Child of Y'srael
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2013, 01:52:08 PM »
no because Ronnie has more Mr. O wins than dorian and the highest number of pro wins by anyone.

so, by numbers and by real life physique, Ronnie is the greatest of all time

Ronnie 8 Mr. O's -----------2 Losses as Mr. O
Dorian 6 Mr. O's ----------- 0 Losses as Mr. O
Haney 8 Mr. O's ----------- 0 Losses as Mr. O ------------Haney = Best Mr. O.
7

doriancutlerman

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1397
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2013, 01:54:16 PM »
Serge had a great physique

But did not pull off the compulsories as well as when standing in his signature poses, especially with arms away from the body, that's why there aren't many shots of those

Yep.

Serge looked great in that pose and a couple of others -- so good people want to go on and on about his perfect aesthetics and all that.

I say bollocks.  He looked mediocre in a number of other poses.  

I call it the Milos factor.  All sorts of guys think Milos had the perfect physique because, standing "relaxed" from the front, he had awesome quads, abs and pecs.  Obviously his ab/thigh was good, too.  So was his side-chest and front lat spread.  But his delts and arms were weak, and I've truly seen better back development on a couple of local guys competing in the 50 and over Masters divisions.  

Folks give Shawn Ray shit when he talked about how bodybuilding's all about "illusions," but the little fucker was right.  Serge and Milos were the MASTERS of looking unbeatable in a shot or two, then from every other angle they disappeared in a solid lineup.  (I mean, honestly:  how do you think Nubret would've placed in the '93 Olympia, even if he was at his all-time best?  That Hamdullah guy that gave up his pro card would've kicked his ass.)

Wiggs

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40808
  • Child of Y'srael
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2013, 01:55:44 PM »
But the numbers show flawless victories and Ronnie does not have 6 Olympia titles without rounds losts.

The Sun Tzu said; The greatest general is not the one with the most wins, it'is the one with the fewest losses.

Dude, you argument is only valid if the said competitors were tied in wins them you'd use, "margin of victory" as a deciding factor. Well it's not needed because you have guys with more O's than Dorian.
7

doriancutlerman

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1397
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2013, 02:14:56 PM »
That was not their explanation though. their explanation was that Dorian's physique looks harder and drier in person, and the grainy look that does not show up in video and picture, this is why Yates won the prejudging and when you see pictures it did not look that way. People call BS but anyone that has seen yates in person knew about this look, very pleasing to the judges and 100's of people over the years have commented on this particular attribute. The fact is Yates and Haney were 1 hair apart in 91 and 92 had the same judging panels so if Yates had improved even slightly, which he did, then the judges would have giving him the win unless Haney improved as well.

And as I said, how was he going to pull that off?  He looked every bit as big and leaner at a '86 grand prix show (though, in fairness, those pics were probably sharpened more than a certain poster's collection of masturbatory pics of Ronnie from all the shows he did in '99).  

I hear people say, oh, Lee was young, he could've kept on growing, blah blah -- well, why didn't he, then?  Some guys just peak earlier than others.  Assuming they can keep growing just because some older guys find a second wind is bullshit.  What they don't realize is Haney got big really, really FAST and started winning Olympias.  Ronnie took his time but he wasn't gaining by leaps and bounds until he started showing up with a giant gut, legs and ass.  

Haney had to have known he had two choices against Yates:

A. Try to come in more cut (and likely be smaller than in '91)
or
Option D.  Come in even bigger and, again, as I said, risk losing the muscularity round by an even larger margin.

Look at it from Lee's perspective.  Dorian was a young pup, 3 years younger than Lee.  Lee had been winning the biggest titles for many years while Dorian went from relative obscurity to the very top in less than 3 years' time.  Chances were good Dorian would be bigger than the previous year AND just as lean, if not leaner.  And if he brought up his so-called "weak points" the way he brought up his back after losing to Momo at the '90 NOC ... sweet Jesus.  WTF would you do?  Retire with the record and dignity, or risk putting it all on the line and going out second-best?

That's another thing a lot of guys here don't understand.  Contest prep isn't as simple as, "Well, I was 256, dry as a bone and 5.1% bodyfat least year; I've added a couple of pounds of lean mass, I'm on target to be at least that lean again ... hey, I got it in the bag."  There ARE last minute fuck-ups.  Family members can die in the final weeks leading up to a show.  Any number of things can happen that can make any projection on paper, no matter how well-reasoned, bullshit when you're water-logged, thinking about a divorce, sick kid or even something as "benign" as a sinus infection and you're standing onstage opposite a guy with Yates' mentality.

cswol

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4663
  • Getbig!
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2013, 06:27:59 PM »
GOAT list is something like this................arno ld, ronnie, lee haney...............dori an isnt on the greatest of all time list because many of his wins were political moves, and he was beat many times but given the win.

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19255
  • Getbig!
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2013, 06:51:34 PM »
And as I said, how was he going to pull that off?  He looked every bit as big and leaner at a '86 grand prix show (though, in fairness, those pics were probably sharpened more than a certain poster's collection of masturbatory pics of Ronnie from all the shows he did in '99).  

I hear people say, oh, Lee was young, he could've kept on growing, blah blah -- well, why didn't he, then?  Some guys just peak earlier than others.  Assuming they can keep growing just because some older guys find a second wind is bullshit.  What they don't realize is Haney got big really, really FAST and started winning Olympias.  Ronnie took his time but he wasn't gaining by leaps and bounds until he started showing up with a giant gut, legs and ass.  

Because, according to Haney, the judges told him that he risked throwing off his proportions by getting much bigger.



Haney had to have known he had two choices against Yates:

A. Try to come in more cut (and likely be smaller than in '91)
or
Option D.  Come in even bigger and, again, as I said, risk losing the muscularity round by an even larger margin.

Look at it from Lee's perspective.  Dorian was a young pup, 3 years younger than Lee.  Lee had been winning the biggest titles for many years while Dorian went from relative obscurity to the very top in less than 3 years' time.  Chances were good Dorian would be bigger than the previous year AND just as lean, if not leaner.  And if he brought up his so-called "weak points" the way he brought up his back after losing to Momo at the '90 NOC ... sweet Jesus.  WTF would you do?  Retire with the record and dignity, or risk putting it all on the line and going out second-best?

That's another thing a lot of guys here don't understand.  Contest prep isn't as simple as, "Well, I was 256, dry as a bone and 5.1% bodyfat least year; I've added a couple of pounds of lean mass, I'm on target to be at least that lean again ... hey, I got it in the bag."  There ARE last minute fuck-ups.  Family members can die in the final weeks leading up to a show.  Any number of things can happen that can make any projection on paper, no matter how well-reasoned, bullshit when you're water-logged, thinking about a divorce, sick kid or even something as "benign" as a sinus infection and you're standing onstage opposite a guy with Yates' mentality.


This fallacy that Haney retired out of fear of Yates is laughable, to say the least. Haney had no more mountains to climb, after defeating Yates to win #8 and break Arnold's record.

Equally as laughable is the notion that Yates would have made all these improvement but Haney would not have.

NarcissisticDeity

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 79350
  • Go back to making jewelry and cakes with your girl
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2013, 07:08:43 PM »


This fallacy that Haney retired out of fear of Yates is laughable, to say the least. Haney had no more mountains to climb, after defeating Yates to win #8 and break Arnold's record.



At his acceptance speech at the conclusion of the 1991 Mr Olympia , Haney said he finally learned how to peak on the day of the show and hinted he would be around for another title , he didn't and Dorian was the reason why, that and he had everything to lose and nothing to gain

Haney may have beaten Dorian 92 if he showed up like he did in 91 but by 1993 NO version of Haney would have beaten Dorian

honest

  • Competitors
  • Getbig IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3225
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #114 on: March 15, 2013, 07:16:14 PM »
At his acceptance speech at the conclusion of the 1991 Mr Olympia , Haney said he finally learned how to peak on the day of the show and hinted he would be around for another title , he didn't and Dorian was the reason why, that and he had everything to lose and nothing to gain

Haney may have beaten Dorian 92 if he showed up like he did in 91 but by 1993 NO version of Haney would have beaten Dorian

never a truer word been spoken.

jwb

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5804
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #115 on: March 15, 2013, 08:20:43 PM »
Haney never intended to do the 1992 mr Olympia but he did want to do the 1993 Arnold as his last contest and swan song but only if it was filmed in a pumping iron type movie like Arnold's supposed last show in 1975. The movie fell through so he stayed retired.

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19255
  • Getbig!
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #116 on: March 15, 2013, 08:25:05 PM »
At his acceptance speech at the conclusion of the 1991 Mr Olympia , Haney said he finally learned how to peak on the day of the show and hinted he would be around for another title , he didn't and Dorian was the reason why, that and he had everything to lose and nothing to gain

Haney may have beaten Dorian 92 if he showed up like he did in 91 but by 1993 NO version of Haney would have beaten Dorian

Again, you assume that Haney couldn't have made the same jump in size that Yates did. I don't remember Haney hinting about doing another Olympia. I think he specifically stated he was calling it a day. What else was there for him?

The last milestone was Arnold's record. He broke it and went out in style.

SomeKindofMonster

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 652
  • RC is SomeKindOfMonster
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #117 on: March 15, 2013, 09:51:56 PM »

Throwing all the statistics out the window and just going by physique
I felt like Ronnie circa 98-99 was much like an improved Haney.
He had the arms that Haney lacked (to some degree).
Ronnie had more detail to his back. Although Haney had an awesome
back I didn't feel it was super detailed like a 1983 Samir, early Ronnie and Yates.
Ronnie's legs, hams and glutes are just on a completely different level.
Ronnie had some mild distention even in 98-99 and in that area Haney is
far superior. I've seen Haney in very good condition close up and even in video
Ronnie is more impressive.
Beisdes Yates in 1991, the best physique Haney competed against was Labrada in
1989. Labrada was close to perfection but was between 176-180 pounds.
Labrada brought that Yates like conditioning that year: (No Fat, No Water, Thin Skin but nowhere
close to Yates density); but at 180 pounds it puts
the level of Haney's competition into perspective.
As far as being a good, decent human being, you would be hard pressed to find
many as good as Haney though.
Labrada in 1989...



Sherief Shalaby

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10629
  • Team Nasser
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #118 on: March 15, 2013, 11:08:40 PM »
Throwing all the statistics out the window and just going by physique
I felt like Ronnie circa 98-99 was much like an improved Haney.
He had the arms that Haney lacked (to some degree).
Ronnie had more detail to his back. Although Haney had an awesome
back I didn't feel it was super detailed like a 1983 Samir, early Ronnie and Yates.
Ronnie's legs, hams and glutes are just on a completely different level.
Ronnie had some mild distention even in 98-99 and in that area Haney is
far superior. I've seen Haney in very good condition close up and even in video
Ronnie is more impressive.
Beisdes Yates in 1991, the best physique Haney competed against was Labrada in
1989. Labrada was close to perfection but was between 176-180 pounds.
Labrada brought that Yates like conditioning that year: (No Fat, No Water, Thin Skin but nowhere
close to Yates density); but at 180 pounds it puts
the level of Haney's competition into perspective.
As far as being a good, decent human being, you would be hard pressed to find
many as good as Haney though.
Labrada in 1989...




great physique "labrada".. now this is bb..

Wiggs

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40808
  • Child of Y'srael
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #119 on: March 15, 2013, 11:16:20 PM »
I like Lebrada. Perfect proportions, excellent conditioning, masterful posing but 180lbs is unacceptable. I'm not saying getting bigger would have helped him because he's a short guy but he did the best he could with what he was given with great results but it was not enough to beat a 5'11 245lb ebony mountain of muscle...with symmetry.
7

Sherief Shalaby

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10629
  • Team Nasser
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #120 on: March 15, 2013, 11:26:17 PM »
I like Lebrada. Perfect proportions, excellent conditioning, masterful posing but 180lbs is unacceptable. I'm not saying getting bigger would have helped him because he's a short guy but he did the best he could with what he was given with great results but it was not enough to beat a 5'11 245lb ebony mountain of muscle...with symmetry.

same can be said about shawn ray..

Wiggs

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40808
  • Child of Y'srael
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2013, 11:28:03 PM »
same can be said about shawn ray..

Correct but Ray was 205-213 vs. Lebrada's 180. That's a huge difference. Ray is better than Lebrada and even Ray's best isn't better than Haney.
7

Wiggs

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40808
  • Child of Y'srael
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2013, 11:44:46 PM »
BTW gentlemen, Ronnie is the worst poser of all the Mr. Olympias. Even Jay is better. Dorian was a good poser with great routines. Haney is self explanatory. Ronnie is a shitty poser. For how his body was he rare choose music that matched it (Powerful, masculine) he'd choose R&B when he didn't have and R&B physique (Flex Wheeler), in addition, he didn't hit poses the correct way and he had no transitions or shitty transitions between poses.
7

SomeKindofMonster

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 652
  • RC is SomeKindOfMonster
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #123 on: March 15, 2013, 11:48:15 PM »
Correct but Ray was 205-213 vs. Lebrada's 180. That's a huge difference. Ray is better than Lebrada and even Ray's best isn't better than Haney.

Shawn was VERY good in 1992 and came in 4th right behind Labrada. Both at there best are
very close.
Labrada's structure is better. For his frame he has wider clavicles and his torso to leg length
is better proportioned than Ray's.
Shawn had more bulbous muscle than Labrada and more happened (POP) to his muscles
when he hit a pose. His clavicles weren't as wide, his torso was a little long for his leg length.
I agree Shawn at his best edges out Labrada and I agree that Shawn at his best
would not win against a 1991 Haney.
I agree with you but probably think it would be closer than you do.

Wiggs

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40808
  • Child of Y'srael
Re: Another Lee Haney Thread. The greatest Mr. O of all time
« Reply #124 on: March 15, 2013, 11:55:19 PM »
Shawn was VERY good in 1992 and came in 4th right behind Labrada. Both at there best are
very close.
Labrada's structure is better. For his frame he has wider clavicles and his torso to leg length
is better proportioned than Ray's.
Shawn had more bulbous muscle than Labrada and more happened (POP) to his muscles
when he hit a pose. His clavicles weren't as wide, his torso was a little long for his leg length.
I agree Shawn at his best edges out Labrada and I agree that Shawn at his best
would not win against a 1991 Haney.
I agree with you but probably think it would be closer than you do.

I agree with all your points and you are correct, I have Ray being clearly better than Lebrada. Taking them both at their best, I don't see where Lebrada beats him in any pose. IMO Shawn doesn't destroy him but he's clearly better mostly because of a 25lb advantage and roundness of his muscle.
7