Author Topic: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay  (Read 11172 times)

Deicide

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2008, 08:32:56 AM »
I don't agree with any of you.

Islam sucks...and US foreign policy sucks too...

Kicking a rabid dog basically...
I hate the State.

The Master

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2008, 08:40:40 AM »
I don't agree with any of you.

Islam sucks...and US foreign policy sucks too...

Kicking a rabid dog basically...

People are severely overreacting to the "danger" muslims represent.

The nutjobs in their ranks might represent a danger if they actually get WMD and use them, but this is also just setting themselves up for self destruction when the west retaliate.

Islam is just a belief system, and no matter how deep a belief system is ingrained in some cultures, it will not survive long term when it is no longer creating good stuff, at least not on a mass scale. Debussey = pretty sure that many immigrant kids leaves their religious roots eventually, as many have already done.

This does not take anything away from the fact that fundamentalist muslims are vermin.

And it just testifies to the fact that this world is mainly composed by humans that are not adequately equipped to deal with the issues this civilization will face eventually. A "sad ;D", but probably true fact is that if a big fucking catastrophy were to occur (like a pandemic or something), the poor uneducated fuckeads infected with superstition in the form of religion and low intellectual abilities would be the first ones to go.


Nordic Superman

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2008, 08:55:16 AM »
And what kingdom/monarchy, democracy or republic did the Caliphates exactly sucked their ideas from? The Vikings? Wait, the Egyptians? The Greeks? I'd like to see the answer to that one because Europe was full fledge into their Middle Ages and BARELY NOTHING was created in Europe back then.

Al-Andalus: 750 to 1031

You're stupid enough to make the statement that barely nothing was created in Europe during this period? Someone needs to read up on their history.

Northern Ireland, the nazi extermination of the jews, etc... Should I go on?

Oh brother... you are joking?

Conflict in Northern Ireland was a separatist struggle over independence.

Nazi Germany wasn't justified via the teachings of Catholicism.

Islam is just a belief system, and no matter how deep a belief system is ingrained in some cultures, it will not survive long term when it is no longer creating good stuff, at least not on a mass scale. Debussey = pretty sure that many immigrant kids leaves their religious roots eventually, as many have already done.

I'd like this to be true, but the July 7 bombers and other radicals in Britain and Europe are not first generation immigrants.

Of course you guys will keep on apologising.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

The Master

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2008, 09:05:19 AM »


I'd like this to be true, but the July 7 bombers and other radicals in Britain and Europe are not first generation immigrants.

Of course you guys will keep on apologising.



Nordic Superman: In order to have this discussion with you, Debussey must know: What is your view on muslims? What do you think will happen during the next 25 years in Europe with the muslims?

Slapper

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2008, 09:28:13 AM »
Islam is islam, the koran is the koran. Which sect of islam doesn't justify slavery, polygamy, child molestation, lack of women's rights?

Can you name an islamic country where religion is secondary? Name me a single country which was islamised by peaceful means.

 ;D ;D What does a secular country have to do with having been "islamised" peacefully?  ;D ;D

I can name various countries where religion is secondary, I presume you're referring to secular states, so... Iraq (before we destroyed it,) Bosnia, Kosovo, Azerbaijan, Turkey, most of the Soviet -stans, Chad, Mali, guy, etc. And these are the Islamic states that have actually declared in their constitutions that they wish to organize as a SECULAR state. There are others that are de-facto secular states like Albania or Syria although not declared as such in their Constitution.

Aside from that, I do not where you're trying to get with the countries that were "islamised by peaceful means" question... Care to elaborate? I mean, many Christian countries were christianized by violent means... so, why point the finger if our religion is just as bad?

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This is not entirely true. How did the muslims control Spain? Via Conquests. Aggressive conquests. If you researched the Christian conquests in their entirety you would find it was a tactical and defensive movement against muslim aggressors.

 :o :o :o Your're fucking bullshitting me right?!!

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The treatment of non-muslims during Al-Andalus is detable. Let's not forget non-muslims were still second class, "lesser humans" than muslims and paid the jizya. Can you explain to me the Western Christian comparison?

Sure, you're talking about 10 fucking centuries ago!! You're talking about a time in which if caught stealing you'd get your head chopped off right then and there. HOWEVER, Jews, Christians and other religious minorities were MUCH BETTER OFF in Al-Andalus than in the rest of Europe.

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"Bernard Lewis takes issue with this view, arguing its modern use is ahistorical and apologetic. He argues that Islam traditionally did not offer such equality nor even pretended that it did, arguing that it would be both a "theological as well as a logical absurdity.

It's funny, because the Iberian counterparts seem to have a much more positive opinion of Al-Andalus than the American or British authors. For one they seem to put things in perspective. They talk about blatantly superior scientific knowledge and a voracious apetite for it, as opposed to the rest of Europe. The truth is that if you just look at the architecture of the time, the Alhambra of granada is an architectural masterpiece (for the time) that has no equal in Europe, the first thing that'd come to your mind is "how the fuck did they do this?!". And this can be said about medicine, astronomy and pretty much anything else. I mean, even the Renaissance was heavily influenced by these people. Everyone knows that without the translations of some of the Islamic scholars' work from Spain the Reinaissance would've happened in a much different, and less creative, way. If it'd happen at all.

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PS. I'm not Christian I'm atheist.

Me too. We're more alike than you think.  ;)

Nordic Superman

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2008, 09:29:07 AM »
Nordic Superman: In order to have this discussion with you, Debussey must know: What is your view on muslims? What do you think will happen during the next 25 years in Europe with the muslims?

Islam is a savage cult like religion. Muslims are individuals with good or bad tenancies, but any who don't take the koran with at least a cup full of salt I am wary of.

What will happen in Europe... 2 outcomes...

1: Muslim immigration and apologism towards muslims continues in the core states where they pose a problem, Britain, France, Germany and the Netherlands. Aspects of sharia law maybe introduce leading to a spiral of decay for the EU.

2: Immigration policies change, peoples stances and openness to discuss issues critical of islam become acceptable (they're no at the moment), everyone lives happily ever after.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Slapper

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2008, 09:32:44 AM »
People are severely overreacting to the "danger" muslims represent.

The nutjobs in their ranks might represent a danger if they actually get WMD and use them, but this is also just setting themselves up for self destruction when the west retaliate.

Islam is just a belief system, and no matter how deep a belief system is ingrained in some cultures, it will not survive long term when it is no longer creating good stuff, at least not on a mass scale. Debussey = pretty sure that many immigrant kids leaves their religious roots eventually, as many have already done.

This does not take anything away from the fact that fundamentalist muslims are vermin.

And it just testifies to the fact that this world is mainly composed by humans that are not adequately equipped to deal with the issues this civilization will face eventually. A "sad ;D", but probably true fact is that if a big fucking catastrophy were to occur (like a pandemic or something), the poor uneducated fuckeads infected with superstition in the form of religion and low intellectual abilities would be the first ones to go.



Exactly! Religion is a deadly disease and must be erradicated.

What is happening with Islam nowadays is the same thing that happened with the Communists. It's all a big movie being sold to us as though the muslims really want to kill us, and that is not the case. Even though our government is killing them.

Nordic Superman

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2008, 09:36:36 AM »
;D ;D What does a secular country have to do with having been "islamised" peacefully?  ;D ;D

I can name various countries where religion is secondary, I presume you're referring to secular states, so... Iraq (before we destroyed it,) Bosnia, Kosovo, Azerbaijan, Turkey, most of the Soviet -stans, Chad, Mali, guy, etc. And these are the Islamic states that have actually declared in their constitutions that they wish to organize as a SECULAR state. There are others that are de-facto secular states like Albania or Syria although not declared as such in their Constitution.

Aside from that, I do not where you're trying to get with the countries that were "islamised by peaceful means" question... Care to elaborate? I mean, many Christian countries were christianized by violent means... so, why point the finger if our religion is just as bad?

 :o :o :o Your're fucking bullshitting me right?!!

Sure, you're talking about 10 fucking centuries ago!! You're talking about a time in which if caught stealing you'd get your head chopped off right then and there. HOWEVER, Jews, Christians and other religious minorities were MUCH BETTER OFF in Al-Andalus than in the rest of Europe.

It's funny, because the Iberian counterparts seem to have a much more positive opinion of Al-Andalus than the American or British authors. For one they seem to put things in perspective. They talk about blatantly superior scientific knowledge and a voracious apetite for it, as opposed to the rest of Europe. The truth is that if you just look at the architecture of the time, the Alhambra of granada is an architectural masterpiece (for the time) that has no equal in Europe, the first thing that'd come to your mind is "how the fuck did they do this?!". And this can be said about medicine, astronomy and pretty much anything else. I mean, even the Renaissance was heavily influenced by these people. Everyone knows that without the translations of some of the Islamic scholars' work from Spain the Reinaissance would've happened in a much different, and less creative, way. If it'd happen at all.

Me too. We're more alike than you think.  ;)

The countries you list have huge bias's towards muslims. Muslims typically receive the resources first in such countries and non-muslims are still appressed in one form or other.

My statement was that not a SINGLE country was islamised by peaceful means unlike some Christian countries. But why must you bring Christianity into this? Isn't the topic here islam? Are you saying they cannot be discussed exclusive of each other?

I honestly think your knowledge/interpretation of the middle ages is a little off.

A lot of the scientists during the caliphate period of Spain were actually Jewish, the jewish wealth as today caused them criticism and in one event slaughter at the hands of the muslims in this idealistic muslim paradise you're pushing :)
الاسلام هو شيطانية

The Master

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2008, 09:40:13 AM »
Islam is a savage cult like religion. Muslims are individuals with good or bad tenancies, but any who don't take the koran with at least a cup full of salt I am wary of.

What will happen in Europe... 2 outcomes...

1: Muslim immigration and apologism towards muslims continues in the core states where they pose a problem, Britain, France, Germany and the Netherlands. Aspects of sharia law maybe introduce leading to a spiral of decay for the EU.

2: Immigration policies change, peoples stances and openness to discuss issues critical of islam become acceptable (they're no at the moment), everyone lives happily ever after.

Interesting.

Regarding 1: Debussey find this highly unlikely, because for this scenario to occur, several very unlikely things have to happen(due to lack of time, Debussey will write the reasons for its agruments later).

The scenario of introducing Sharia law = very unlikely. And even if it was somewhat introduced, it would be pretty hard to fuck up EU because of it.

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apologism towards muslims continues

Have you seen the tremendous pressure against Islam lately? Most places in Europe, people HATES muslims (and there exists many good reasons for being vary of them). The policy makers today are excusing them here and there, but the way things are continuing, it is not likely that they'll benefit from this long term.

And: How many % of muslims actually wants the sharia law?

Also, the places like S.A. and UAE are become more and more western.

Make no mistake, Debussey thinks fundamentalist muslims = vermin. They are irrational idiots with the intelligence of backwards stone age idiots. But the chances of them actually getting loads of power or them actually fundamentally changing western societies are pretty slim.

But at least they give people something to worry about :D ;D

OzmO

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2008, 09:44:22 AM »
When did you turn into a troll?


A.  i was making a point about what you were inferring with your statement.
B.  i was making a joke.


What's a matter can't comment on your statement?

JBGRAY

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2008, 09:44:51 AM »
What do you think will happen during the next 25 years in Europe with the muslims?

I'd like to answer this, if I may.

Native Europeans have well-below replacement birthrates(with the exception of Albanian Muslims).  Couple this with crushing taxes, a relatively high standard of living, out of control immigration(both legal and illegal), and embracing a very liberal ideaology, it's no secret that Europeans simply do not want, nor can afford, children.  By liberal idealogy, I mean by:  Empowerment of women(career-minded, career-driven), empowerment of gays, ultra-tolerance for any and all forms of differences from themselves, birth control, the welfare state, and, a bit off topic here, but a very visible shame and feeling of post-colonial guilt......on themselves.  Native-born workers are often denied jobs by less qualified foreigners.

The Muslim population in Europe do not share any of these properties.  They have no shame, nor is it outlawed anywhere in their religious texts, by helping themselves to the welfare system employed by Europe.  They desire to grow, to populate, to spread their religion and culture.  Many have fierce pride in their race, religion, and culture, things that the seemingly emasculated Europeans are discouraged of doing.  The largely North African and Middle Eastern populations continue to swell inside Europe, as the native population continues to age and die.

In Britain alone, there are dozens of various groups that just the Housing Authority has to cater to.  In a few housing projects, the toilets must be built to face away from Mecca.  How many terror attacks and terror plots and attempts has Europe faced recently?  How many Mosques are being built in comparison to churches?

As for the question.......25 years?  Under the ultra-tolerant(tolerance other than the native Europeans) umbrella of the EU, there will be dozens of areas under some form of Sharia Law.  Converts to Islam will continue to rise as many see the writing on the wall.  Europe will fall largely under Islamic rule, not by conquest, but by acquiesce.

The Master

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2008, 09:50:24 AM »
I'd like to answer this, if I may.

Native Europeans have well-below replacement birthrates(with the exception of Albanian Muslims).  Couple this with crushing taxes, a relatively high standard of living, out of control immigration(both legal and illegal), and embracing a very liberal ideaology, it's no secret that Europeans simply do not want, nor can afford, children.  By liberal idealogy, I mean by:  Empowerment of women(career-minded, career-driven), empowerment of gays, ultra-tolerance for any and all forms of differences from themselves, birth control, the welfare state, and, a bit off topic here, but a very visible shame and feeling of post-colonial guilt......on themselves.  Native-born workers are often denied jobs by less qualified foreigners.

The Muslim population in Europe do not share any of these properties.  They have no shame, nor is it outlawed anywhere in their religious texts, by helping themselves to the welfare system employed by Europe.  They desire to grow, to populate, to spread their religion and culture.  Many have fierce pride in their race, religion, and culture, things that the seemingly emasculated Europeans are discouraged of doing.  The largely North African and Middle Eastern populations continue to swell inside Europe, as the native population continues to age and die.

In Britain alone, there are dozens of various groups that just the Housing Authority has to cater to.  In a few housing projects, the toilets must be built to face away from Mecca.  How many terror attacks and terror plots and attempts has Europe faced recently?  How many Mosques are being built in comparison to churches?

As for the question.......25 years?  Under the ultra-tolerant(tolerance other than the native Europeans) umbrella of the EU, there will be dozens of areas under some form of Sharia Law.  Converts to Islam will continue to rise as many see the writing on the wall.  Europe will fall largely under Islamic rule, not by conquest, but by acquiesce.

Haha ;D

This post is the worst piece of horseshit Debussey has read for quite some time.

Have you even looked at the numbers behind immigrant birth rates, how they decline, and future demographic scenarios based on "demographic forecasting"?

If you run the numbers, and factor in the neccessary precautions needed, your future scenario is just a dream made to scare people.

The premises you build your post upon is the biggest piece of ignorant thinking Debussey has seen for quite some time.

Please back up your post with numbers and solid rational arguments :)

Slapper

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2008, 10:00:17 AM »
Al-Andalus: 750 to 1031

You're stupid enough to make the statement that barely nothing was created in Europe during this period? Someone needs to read up on their history.

And yet, as with all your previous comments, you point the finger without saying anything substantial. What was it that was created in Europe during the Middle Ages (other than Islamic Spain that is)? 

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Oh brother... you are joking?

Conflict in Northern Ireland was a separatist struggle over independence.

So... wait a second, it had nothing to do with the fact that there were protestant and catholics bombing the heck out of each other. Aha! That's it!

Quote
Nazi Germany wasn't justified via the teachings of Catholicism.

Nazi Germany was the icing on a cake whose ingreadients the Church had very carefully and systematically been working on for many, many years. Hate for the Jew was something teached by the Church on a regular basis. Is should also be noted that many of the participants, on the German side that is, of the concentration camps were ex-priests. This is A FACT, not merely a statement. Check it out, but please do not take it out of context with one of your Justgrabbeditouttamyass Encyclopedia comments.


Slapper

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2008, 10:29:37 AM »
The countries you list have huge bias's towards muslims. Muslims typically receive the resources first in such countries and non-muslims are still appressed in one form or other.

Which countries have a huge bias towards muslims? Point them out. Furthermore, wouldn't it be safe to say that there's a huge bias towards Christianism in the USA? If you do not believe me ask Jews and Muslims.

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My statement was that not a SINGLE country was islamised by peaceful means unlike some Christian countries.

And that proves that... we're superior? They are bad and we are good? I mean, some Christian countries might've been, arguably, christianized peacefully, but our Christianization has been MUCH MORE MURDEROUS than that of Islam. Look at the Spanish conquest of the Americas. Who did most of the killing? The Catholic Church, mainly, via their Franciscan and Dominican paisans. 90 million indians died. You do the math.

Furthermore, ask yourself this, was our country christianized "peacefully"?

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But why must you bring Christianity into this? Isn't the topic here islam? Are you saying they cannot be discussed exclusive of each other?

Well, I brough it up because of the moronically hypochritical nature of your comments. It's like a bald guy making fun or criticizing another bald guy for how shiny the top of his head is. You're just as fucking BALD (let me know if you can decypher the metaphor)!

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I honestly think your knowledge/interpretation of the middle ages is a little off.

And how is it a little off? Another baseless accusation.

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A lot of the scientists during the caliphate period of Spain were actually Jewish, the jewish wealth as today caused them criticism and in one event slaughter at the hands of the muslims in this idealistic muslim paradise you're pushing :)

No, you're wrong again! I will concede to the fact that many of the intellectual Al-Andalusian were Jewish, it is A FACT. HOWEVER, the Jewish community suffered FAR MORE setbacks from the Catholic Kings than under their Islamic counterparts. Let's not forget about the expulsion of the Sephardic Jews out of Spain in 1492, which was ordered by the Catholic Kings. And this is no isolated incident by any stretch of the imagination. This has been a carefully executed plan which had its zenith in Germany. A plan to keep the whole of Europe Christian, via massacres in which Muslims had NOTHING to do with.

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2008, 10:40:58 AM »

All this is pure bullshit...as the Caliphates spread across the globe, they sucked up ideas, technologies etc from the countries they invaded and occupied. Now u'll come back that what I just posted is BS and I'll paste some crap from somebody who disputes that and it will go on and on....the bottom line is this, thats all in the past. The Catholic Church and her mistakes are in the past. Islam and her mistakes are killing people now...its views and backward thinking are creating genocide in Africa. I don't remember wearing a white tabard and Maltese cross as I drove across Iraq. But every day the islamist invoke the name of Allah as they kill and wound our troops, their own countrymen and other innocents across the world. Islam today cannot be defended.

hahahahahahahahaahahahah ahaha
lol
hahahahaha
holy shit
I can't believe you typed this and I can't believe the other knuckle head Nordic Supercockface runs with it EVERY chance he gets. Why don't you just admit you hate EVERYONE who isnt like you? You get more respect for at least being honest.
Don't you wonder why people take you less and less seriously with a statement like that? You're blind to the very recent history and present actions of your own society.


headhuntersix

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2008, 12:14:17 PM »
Hhaahahha...do some reading dipshit...as they invaded and killed they obsorbed the cultures they took....I don't have to like these people. I'm proud of my society...how many mass graves have been found by US troops...how many torture chambers...how many suicide bombers have killed people...all muslims. Ur outlook is naive...unlike u I have been there and done that....go hide under ur politically correct rock.
L

headhuntersix

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2008, 12:23:34 PM »
First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by Christians and Jews.  To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time, and this became the foundation for their own knowledge.  (One large reason for this, however, was that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by the Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).

Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims.  The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam, but it was, in fact, created by the Hindus and merely introduced to the West by Muslims - along with the products of other cultures that were found to be useful to their new rulers.

In fact, conquered populations contributed greatly to the history of “Muslim science” until gradually being decimated by conversion to Islam (under the pressures of dhimmitude).  The Muslim concentration within a population is directly proportional to the decline of scientific achievement.  It is no accident that the Muslim world has had little to show for itself in the last 600 years or so, since running out of new civilizations to cannibalize.

Third, even the great Muslim scientists and icons were often considered heretics in their time, sometimes for good reason.  One of the greatest achievers to come out of the Muslim world was the Iranian scientist and philosopher, al-Razi.  His impressive works are often held up today as “proof” of Muslim accomplishment.  But what the apologists often leave out is that al-Razi was denounced as a blasphemer, since he followed his own religious beliefs – which were in obvious contradiction to traditional Islam.

Fourth, even the contributions that are attributed to Islam (often inaccurately) are not terribly dramatic.  There is the invention of certain words, such as alchemy and elixir, but not much else that survives in modern technology that is of any practical significance.  Neither is there any reason to believe that such discoveries would not have easily been made by the West following the cultural awakening triggered by the Reformation.

As an example of this, consider that Muslims claim credit for coffee, since the beans were discovered in Africa (at the time, an important source for Islamic slave trading) and first processed in the Middle East.  While this is true, it is also true that the red dye used in many food products, from cranberry juice to candy, comes from the abdomen of a particular female beetle found in South America.  It is extremely unlikely that the West would not have stumbled across coffee by now (although, to be fair, coffee probably expedited subsequent discoveries).

In fact, the litany of “Muslim” achievement often takes the form of rhapsody, in which the true origins of these discoveries are omitted - along with their comparative significance to Western achievement.  Scientific, medical and technological accomplishments are not something over which Muslim apologists want to get into a pissing contest with the Christian world.  Today’s Islamic innovators are known merely for turning Western technology, such as cell phones and airplanes, into instruments of mass murder.

To sum up, although the Islamic religion is not entirely hostile to science, neither should it be confused as a facilitator.  The great achievements that are said to have come out of the Islamic world were made either by non-Muslims who happened to be under Islamic rule, or by heretics who usually had little interest in Islam.  Scientific discovery tapers off dramatically as Islam asserts dominance, until it eventually peters out altogether. 

L

headhuntersix

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2008, 12:26:43 PM »
Liberal Freethinking Abbasid Caliphs

The so called ‘Islamic Golden Age’ was all about the success of some Muslim-born freethinkers during the period of liberal freethinking Caliphs of Abbasid dynasty. The seventh Abbasid caliph, al-Ma'mun (813-833), was even a greater patron of education and science than Harun al-Rashid. He took considerable pains to obtain Greek manuscripts and even sent a mission to the Byzantine Emperor Leon the Armenian (8l3 to 890) for that purpose. He ordered the translation of these manuscripts. He organized at Baghdad a sort of scientific academy called the House of Wisdom (Bayt al-hilkma), which included a library and an observatory. He encouraged scholars from all kinds (various religions), and an enormous amount of scientific work was done under his patronage. This was the most ambitious undertaking of its kind since the foundation of the Alexandrian Museum (q. v. first half of third century B. C.).

Al-Ma'mun 'Abdallah al-Ma'mun' was born in Baghdad in 786, and he died near Tarsus in 833. Al-Ma'mun was the seventh and greatest 'Abbasid caliph (813-833). His mother and wife were Persians, which explains his Persian and 'Alid proclivities. He was an ardent Mu'tazil, tried to enforce his views by means of violence. He wrote four long letters to explain the Qur'an was created, and he cruelly punished those who dared entertain different views (e.g., Ibn Hannibal). He thus combined in a remarkable way free thought and intolerance. While persecuting those who objected to Mu'tazilism, Jews and Christians were very welcome at his court.
Famous luminaries of Islamic golden age

Now, we shall examine the life history of some very famous luminaries of the Islamic “Golden Age” to evaluate historical truth whether these Muslim-born freethinkers were true believers of Islam or any other religion per se. We shall also examine whether the core teachings of religion Islam had anyway influenced or contributed (as erroneously believed by most Islamists) to the success of medieval Muslim scientists. Let us find out about the religious fervor (if there was any) of some of the most famous ancient so called Islamic scientists and thinkers:
1. Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakarīya al-Rāzi (865-925): was a Persian physician, philosopher, and scholar. According to al-Biruni he was born in  Rayy, Iran the year 865 AD and died there in 925 AD. He was perhaps the greatest Muslim-born scientist in the whole of Islamic world. He was one of the great physicians of all times. Al-Razi made fundamental and enduring contributions to the fields of  Medicine, alchemy, and philosophy, recorded in over 184 books and articles in various fields of science. He was well-versed in Greek and Indian Medical knowledge and added substantially to them from his own observations.  He is the author of the monumental encyclopedia al Hawi, on which he worked for fifteen years. Now, let us read what al-Razi thought about religions in general. 

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Slapper

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2008, 12:41:28 PM »
First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by Christians and Jews.  To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time, and this became the foundation for their own knowledge.  (One large reason for this, however, was that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by the Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).

The Greeks were gone looooong before Islam started spreading toward the west.

Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims.  The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam, but it was, in fact, created by the Hindus and merely introduced to the West by Muslims - along with the products of other cultures that were found to be useful to their new rulers.

In fact, conquered populations contributed greatly to the history of “Muslim science” until gradually being decimated by conversion to Islam (under the pressures of dhimmitude).  The Muslim concentration within a population is directly proportional to the decline of scientific achievement.  It is no accident that the Muslim world has had little to show for itself in the last 600 years or so, since running out of new civilizations to cannibalize.

Third, even the great Muslim scientists and icons were often considered heretics in their time, sometimes for good reason.  One of the greatest achievers to come out of the Muslim world was the Iranian scientist and philosopher, al-Razi.  His impressive works are often held up today as “proof” of Muslim accomplishment.  But what the apologists often leave out is that al-Razi was denounced as a blasphemer, since he followed his own religious beliefs – which were in obvious contradiction to traditional Islam.

Fourth, even the contributions that are attributed to Islam (often inaccurately) are not terribly dramatic.  There is the invention of certain words, such as alchemy and elixir, but not much else that survives in modern technology that is of any practical significance.  Neither is there any reason to believe that such discoveries would not have easily been made by the West following the cultural awakening triggered by the Reformation.

As an example of this, consider that Muslims claim credit for coffee, since the beans were discovered in Africa (at the time, an important source for Islamic slave trading) and first processed in the Middle East.  While this is true, it is also true that the red dye used in many food products, from cranberry juice to candy, comes from the abdomen of a particular female beetle found in South America.  It is extremely unlikely that the West would not have stumbled across coffee by now (although, to be fair, coffee probably expedited subsequent discoveries).

In fact, the litany of “Muslim” achievement often takes the form of rhapsody, in which the true origins of these discoveries are omitted - along with their comparative significance to Western achievement.  Scientific, medical and technological accomplishments are not something over which Muslim apologists want to get into a pissing contest with the Christian world.  Today’s Islamic innovators are known merely for turning Western technology, such as cell phones and airplanes, into instruments of mass murder.

To sum up, although the Islamic religion is not entirely hostile to science, neither should it be confused as a facilitator.  The great achievements that are said to have come out of the Islamic world were made either by non-Muslims who happened to be under Islamic rule, or by heretics who usually had little interest in Islam.  Scientific discovery tapers off dramatically as Islam asserts dominance, until it eventually peters out altogether.

And you're saying all of this because......... ??

Ok, so the Muslims did not come up with the concept of "0". Fair enough. They came up with algebra though. Is that enough or should I go a google on their accomplishments? And plenty other things. I mean, it's like saying that the blues or jazz is not a purely American phenomena because the originators were African American slaves hence not considered citizens of the US hence they were not American.

It's total stupidity. Beyond stupid!

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #69 on: March 16, 2008, 12:51:52 PM »
Hhaahahha...do some reading dipshit...as they invaded and killed they obsorbed the cultures they took....I don't have to like these people. I'm proud of my society...how many mass graves have been found by US troops...how many torture chambers...how many suicide bombers have killed people...all muslims. Ur outlook is naive...unlike u I have been there and done that....go hide under ur politically correct rock.

I think you're full of shit when you talk about anything to do with the military. Sorry man, hate to be so blunt about it. If you really do work for the military in some way shape or form and there are others that think like you, than it's no wonder it's a fucking mess.

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2008, 12:53:13 PM »
Hhaahahha...do some reading dipshit...as they invaded and killed they obsorbed the cultures they took....I don't have to like these people. I'm proud of my society...how many mass graves have been found by US troops...how many torture chambers...how many suicide bombers have killed people...all muslims. Ur outlook is naive...unlike u I have been there and done that....go hide under ur politically correct rock.

Native Americans.

Black slaves.


No there are no religous fanatics in America that twist the word of God to suit their own needs. ::)




The Master

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #71 on: March 16, 2008, 12:55:14 PM »
I think you're full of shit when you talk about anything to do with the military. Sorry man, hate to be so blunt about it. If you really do work for the military in some way shape or form and there are others that think like you, than it's no wonder it's a fucking mess.

What if everybody here met up, had some beer and some good food, and perhaps listening to some Van Halen?

 :D :P

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #72 on: March 16, 2008, 12:55:47 PM »
What if everybody here met up, had some beer and some good food, and perhaps listening to some Van Halen?

 :D :P

Only if it's with Roth.  :P

The Master

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2008, 12:56:57 PM »

War-Horse

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Re: 3 British Muslims describe torture at Guantanamo Bay
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2008, 01:40:04 PM »
One can deduce from this thread, that islam is perhaps no more inhumane, than the atroscious acts of christianity thru out the ages....its no wonder religion is in deep shit on both sides.