Antoine Vaillant - Ten years of hard work - got his pro card!

[pellius]

Even the storage properties might be highly exaggerated. It would be interesting to test muscle glycogen levels with exogenous insulin, if there really is an appreciable increase in glycogen. As far as I can tell the main effect of insulin wrt glycemia is in stopping hepatic glucose production, not "pushing" glycogen into muscle. They have seen this in diabetics, glucose uptake into muscle isn't hampered much when insulin is withdrawn. Insulin can assist anabolic processes for sure, for example IGF-1 can be increased with insulins, it potentiates GH that way. Lantus in particular has been proven to increase IGF-1 but Milos doesn't like it.
I have played with insulin even though I'm not a competitive bb. Tried Actrapid, Humalog, Apidra, Novolog and Lantus Might try some Tresiba soon, it's like a 48 hour insulin IIRC, terrible

IGF would be more interesting but I only tried China generics more than a decade ago. Milos thinks IGF is a bad idea on account of the supposed cancer risk. But then, why even risk taking GH or insulin?

A friend of mine would routinely eat 200 grams of carbohydrates before training which would last about two hours and then by the time he got home, showered, and prepared his meal another hour or so will past.

When he started experimenting with insulin he took 30 ius of Humalog after his pre workout 200 gram carb meal. After an hour and a half he went hypo and almost passed out. Fortunately he was smart enough to carry a tube of those glucose pills which he downed immediate giving him a quick 40 grams and he had access to a vending matching where he down about 3 bottles of Gatorade. This revived him enough to walk next door where they had a fast food spot so he could get something to eat.

So my question is, where did all that glucose go from the Humalog? I always thought it went straight to the muscle. It certainly went somewhere fast proving that exogenous slin crams those nutrients at a rate and greater amount than you can do naturally. All those sugars he was consuming during his hypo state was also being shuttled somewhere.

[Van_Bilderass]

A friend of mine would routinely eat 200 grams of carbohydrates before training which would last about two hours and then by the time he got home, showered, and prepared his meal another hour or so will past.

When he started experimenting with insulin he took 30 ius of Humalog after his pre workout 200 gram carb meal. After an hour and a half he went hypo and almost passed out. Fortunately he was smart enough to carry a tube of those glucose pills which he downed immediate giving him a quick 40 grams and he had access to a vending matching where he down about 3 bottles of Gatorade. This revived him enough to walk next door where they had a fast food spot so he could get something to eat.

So my question is, where did all that glucose go from the Humalog? I always thought it went straight to the muscle. It certainly went somewhere fast proving that exogenous slin crams those nutrients at a rate and greater amount than you can do naturally. All those sugars he was consuming during his hypo state was also being shuttled somewhere.

The insulin stops glucose production in the liver and this has major effects on glycemia. Like I said, it's the reason for hyperglycemia in diabetics if they miss doses, not because muscle stops taking up glucose. I have experimented a lot and the way to go hypo is to dump a ton of fast carbs in short period of time when taking insulin. I think the exogenous insulin doesn't match up quite right with the huge bolus of glucose and you get a ton of endogenous release. Then as the body is already handling the glucose on it's own the exo kicks in  A more drawn out intake works better IMO and you can get away with less.

I haven't done A TON of reading on insulin but this paper I have posted before is interesting;
https://bjanaesthesia.org/article/S0007-0912(17)37337-3/fulltext

Such calculations show that, in the face of hyperglycaemia, tissue glucose uptake is usually increased above normal even when insulin deficiency is severe. This cannot be reconciled with the concept that insulin is required for glucose uptake by insulin-sensitive tissues. Indeed it proves beyond question that insulin is not required 

How then does insulin lower the blood glucose in diabetes?
Again this question is simple to answer and, by now, the answer will not be surprising. The use of tracer glucose infusions has shown not only that hyperglycaemia in the face of insulin deficiency is the result of over-production of glucose by the liver but also that insulin infusion lowers blood glucose by inhibiting hepatic glucose production. Indeed, rather than stimulating glucose uptake in tissues such as muscle, insulin in fact reduces glucose uptake. This is because the main factor driving glucose uptake is the ‘mass action’ effect of hyperglycaemia and the concentration gradient between the extracellular and intracellular glucose concentrations. Glucose transporters are not rate limiting under these conditions, even in the face of severe insulin deficiency

BTW, I saw where a British pro who became diabetic gave advice on how to handle hypoglycemia on a diet when using insulin. He recommended just 15 grams and waiting for a period before taking more. I have seen diabetic recommendations of just 5 grams of glucose if feeling hypo outside of regular meals. Doesn't take much necessarily.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/BwKvueIgove/?igshid=ihryh3wuz0ri

[pellius]

The insulin stops glucose production in the liver and this has major effects on glycemia. Like I said, it's the reason for hyperglycemia in diabetics if they miss doses, not because muscle stops taking up glucose. I have experimented a lot and the way to go hypo is to dump a ton of fast carbs in short period of time when taking insulin. I think the exogenous insulin doesn't match up quite right with the huge bolus of glucose and you get a ton of endogenous release. Then as the body is already handling the glucose on it's own the exo kicks in  A more drawn out intake works better IMO and you can get away with less.

I haven't done A TON of reading on insulin but this paper I have posted before is interesting;
https://bjanaesthesia.org/article/S0007-0912(17)37337-3/fulltext

BTW, I saw where a British pro who became diabetic gave advice on how to handle hypoglycemia on a diet when using insulin. He recommended just 15 grams and waiting for a period before taking more. I have seen diabetic recommendations of just 5 grams of glucose if feeling hypo outside of regular meals. Doesn't take much necessarily.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/BwKvueIgove/?igshid=ihryh3wuz0ri

Yes, I didn't realize that. I remember my Aunt use to pop one or two of those Glucose tabs that come in a tube of ten tabs when she'd go hypo. I didn't realize until I became more aware of diabetes and insulin that those tabs are only 4 grams of glucose each.

[Methyl m1ke]

So is taking GH without slin good or bad? I was considering trying it (GH i mean.)

[ThisisOverload]

So is taking GH without slin good or bad? I was considering trying it (GH i mean.)

It's fine, it is just that when you take huge doses of GH you probably should add some slin in there as well.

[pellius]

It's fine, it is just that when you take huge doses of GH you probably should add some slin in there as well.

What is considered a huge dose? For Seros, the SINGLE dose vial is 6mg (18ius). They also have the less common SINGLE dose vial of 5mg (15ius)

[Van_Bilderass]

What is considered a huge dose? For Seros, the SINGLE dose vial is 6mg (18ius). They also have the less common SINGLE dose vial of 5mg (15ius)

There was this Saudi (IIRC) coach here who didn't believe me when I told him about the HIV dosages, said no one ever did 18iu, certainly not for HIV.
Though in this case I would say that this dosage is not beneficial and could be outright dangerous. I think they sought approval for so much to sell more of their crazy expensive drug.

[Matt]

There was this Saudi (IIRC) coach here who didn't believe me when I told him about the HIV dosages, said no one ever did 18iu, certainly not for HIV.
Though in this case I would say that this dosage is not beneficial and could be outright dangerous. I think they sought approval for so much to sell more of their crazy expensive drug.

Years ago on MucleMayhem, someone speculated that Ronnie Coleman was probably taking 18ius of GH per day.  On Mayhem, saying anything that could be perceived remotely negatively about a pro bodybuilder - even RECORDED QUOTES FROM THE BODYBUILDERS THEMSELVES - subjected you to being banned.

In either 2005 or 2006, Serge Nubret Claimed that he never used steroids in bodybuilding during his competitive prime.  Then I simply posted a quote from Serge himself taken directly from the May 1979 issue #14 of MUSCLEMAG INTL [pictured below] where he himself admitted to using steroids, specifically citing Winstrol as a means of hardening up his physique.

Some typical Mayhem member / idol worshipper of pro bodybuilders immediately quoted me, and asked me why I had to always cause animosity by taking contrarian positions. 

That board was pure groupthink in action.  As an autistic, it was cringe for me to hang out there for the couple of years that I did.

In fact, MuscleMayhem to pretty much any Getbigger would be what life is like for an autistic.  It's just annoying living life doing nothing more than stating the blatantly obvious, and being perceived as if *I* am somehow the insane one.

[Van_Bilderass]

Years ago on MucleMayhem

Yeah, though Chad fucking named the steroid section "Chemical Warfare" Lol. I started the whole insulin debate between Chad and Milos that blew up. This was within days of the forum opening. Chad probably regretted answering me at all  Too bad the posts are gone, would've been fun to look at it again after so long. Perhaps they are archived somewhere but I'm not technical enough to find them.

[Matt]

Yeah, though Chad fucking named the steroid section "Chemical Warfare" Lol. I started the whole insulin debate between Chad and Milos that blew up. This was within days of the forum opening. Chad probably regretted answering me at all 

LOL!!!!

HAHAHAHA.

A usual long, autistic post from me, but it actually has a point about your point, so bear with me. 

Do you recall in 2005 when the IFBB sent out a memo stating that bodybuilders were to reduce size/weight by about 15%, and stricter judging at that year's Olympia would be placed on aesthetics, with specific emphasis on the midsection?

That memo ruined Ruhl's placing that year, because he was one of the few guys who actually tried to follow it.  Poor guy.  Meanwhile, guys who did nothing differently or even continued to get bigger, were judged advantageously.  I can't recall why Dex skipped out that Mr. Olympia, but I don't think it was related to the memo.

Ronnie Coleman actually did follow the memo too - and slimmed down from the 296-lb he was at the 2004 Mr. Olympia contest, to 275-lb in 2005...and did present a package very much different than he showed at any other contest.  It was interesting.  He took a risk following that memo.

Really, the memo should have read something like:

"Dear Dues-Paying IFBB Pro Card Holder,

It has recently been brought to the attention of Joe Weider's Shabbos Goy Stooges The IFBB Professional League that IFBB professional bodybuilder overall stomach size has increased in length, width, and trimester stage since the Ironage.

As a result, all IFBB Mr. Olympia 2005 professional bodybuilding competitors are being asked to reduce overall body size by 15%, and specific emphasis will be placed on midsection size.  Judges have been advised to shift their eyes slightly upward from their normal viewing angle in order to do a more thorough evaluation of stomach sizes on IFBB professional bodybuilders competing at this year's IFBB Mr. Olympia 2005, who will be reduced in points, if their stomachs are larger than one average weight median-aged Galápagos tortoise.

And since a lot of the IFBB brass are skinny little old manlets who get off bossing around men twice their size, please don't crush me if you see me at the expo during the competition weekend.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely Yours,

Some Schmoe in a suit and tie who has never worked out a day in his life, whose only interest in bodybuilding for half of us is to masturbate to large muscular men in thongs, and whose only interest for the other half is to boss around men that would break us in two in any other context in life."

IFBB Brass Member."

I wonder if that memo is still anywhere online.

...

But anyway, news of that memo made it to Chad's MuscleShmayorham board, and people were discussing how bodybuilders would be making changes in order to meet the new requirements.

Then some astute - probably autistic - poster said "I guess Ronnie could always lower the doses."

Someone almost immediately replied "HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THAT RONNIE WOULD LOSE MASS IF HE DID THAT?!"

I was thinking..."LMAO!!!  Dumb shit...IF THE DOSES HE IS TAKING ARE NOT NEEDED TO SUSTAIN THE SIZE HE IS CARRYING, WHY THE F*CK WOULD HE BE TAKING THOSE DOSES?"

Haha.

MuscleGayHam member: "There's no proof Ronnie Coleman would lose muscle mass if he dropped from 18ius of GH daily to 6ius of GH daily."

Then on a lucky day, you'd see a reply from a MuscleGayHam member who was actually sane, and probably later fled the board to come here, before his reply was deleted for being hate speech: "So if Ronnie would be just as big on 6ius of GH daily rather than 18ius of GH daily, why wouldn't he just take 6ius daily, save all that money thanks to now only having to buy a third as much GH as before, and still compete at the same size?

Members posting ANY degree of sanity would be banned...not unlike being fired from universities these days for saying anything remotely sane.

And of course, as they say "Go Woke - Go Broke", and MuscleMayhem was, in its own way, woke.  And it did indeed go broke.

Yeah, though Chad fucking named the steroid section "Chemical Warfare" Lol. I started the whole insulin debate between Chad and Milos that blew up. This was within days of the forum opening. Chad probably regretted answering me at all  Too bad the posts are gone, would've been fun to look at it again after so long. Perhaps they are archived somewhere but I'm not technical enough to find them.

I was wondering the same thing myself, Van!  And I actually messaged Chad about that on Facebook.

He told me that he has the ENTIRE website including ALL message board threads archived and backed up online.

Unlike Shawn Perine [RIP] whose IronAge website was closed down, followed by the young death of Shawn himself in 2017, Chad does have a full backup/archived copy of MuscleMayhem somewhere.  IronAge, along with thousands - quite possibly MILLIONS - of other IronAge, GoldenAge, and SilverAge websites since the dawn of the internet, are probably lost in time right now, never to return again.  It's pretty sad, to me.

But we still - for now - have The Wayback achine at www.archive.org, which has snapshots of millions of old websites.  I love it.  It's damn cool to me to see a fossil of the internet's past, literally frozen in time, far before present day when things were, well...for me at least,b]welll...not literally the most insane year I've ever experienced such far![/b]  LOL.  God, what an insane year.  Here is a snap of how Chad's board looked in June of 2004:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040626011622/http://musclemayhem.com/forum/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi

[Gregzs]

Joey Szatmary: I tried a PRO bodybuilders upper body workout | Ft Jujimufu & Antoine Vaillant

[Colossus_1986]

True, pretty sure I took more gear than he took.
Couldn't even win a local show

Lol this comment made my day! I feel your pain bro,  been there!

[Gregzs]

Milos pointers on Cable Crossovers with Antoine Vaillant

[tres_taco_combo]

all the GH talk - quick question

ideal dose for long term fat loss and healthy benefits? 2IU per day?

[Van_Bilderass]

all the GH talk - quick question

ideal dose for long term fat loss and healthy benefits? 2IU per day?

Sounds about right. Maybe even slightly less. Some of these secretagogues that are everywhere can be very effective in raising GH and IGF-1. You could maybe even do both, an IU of GH and a secretagogue like MK-677 or the injectable peptides. Maybe consider Metformin or Berberine if blood glucose goes up.

[tres_taco_combo]

Sounds about right. Maybe even slightly less. Some of these secretagogues that are everywhere can be very effective in raising GH and IGF-1. You could maybe even do both, an IU of GH and a secretagogue like MK-677 or the injectable peptides. Maybe consider Metformin or Berberine if blood glucose goes up.

i might need to hit up you with more questions

wow that is a lot to take in. ill be 37 soon (2 weeks) and eventually looking for a solid anti aging stack (non competitive/low dose TRT/GH etc etc) a few years out.

[a_pupil]

Years ago on MucleMayhem, someone speculated that Ronnie Coleman was probably taking 18ius of GH per day.  On Mayhem, saying anything that could be perceived remotely negatively about a pro bodybuilder - even RECORDED QUOTES FROM THE BODYBUILDERS THEMSELVES - subjected you to being banned.

In either 2005 or 2006, Serge Nubret Claimed that he never used steroids in bodybuilding during his competitive prime.  Then I simply posted a quote from Serge himself taken directly from the May 1979 issue #14 of MUSCLEMAG INTL [pictured below] where he himself admitted to using steroids, specifically citing Winstrol as a means of hardening up his physique.

Some typical Mayhem member / idol worshipper of pro bodybuilders immediately quoted me, and asked me why I had to always cause animosity by taking contrarian positions. 

That board was pure groupthink in action.  As an autistic, it was cringe for me to hang out there for the couple of years that I did.

In fact, MuscleMayhem to pretty much any Getbigger would be what life is like for an autistic.  It's just annoying living life doing nothing more than stating the blatantly obvious, and being perceived as if *I* am somehow the insane one.

 

you have that quote about winny from serge?

[ThisisOverload]

Sounds about right. Maybe even slightly less. Some of these secretagogues that are everywhere can be very effective in raising GH and IGF-1. You could maybe even do both, an IU of GH and a secretagogue like MK-677 or the injectable peptides. Maybe consider Metformin or Berberine if blood glucose goes up.

Good answer, i found that 2 iu is great for just general benefits.  I never had glucose issues until i got in the 4-5 iu range, but it's smart to keep an eye on it.

[Van_Bilderass]

you have that quote about winny from serge?

Serge continued with his natural talk up til his death. Shortly before he died some promotor said he got Segre drugs during his seminar tour. They had some disagreement so the guy posted that on FB
I don't know if the circumstances around his death came out? There was some chatter about insulin overdose or something IIRC?

[Matt]

you have that quote about winny from serge?

I'm glad you asked!  Fair question...and it's cool to know what our Ironage bodybuilding icons looked like.

That being said, all Serge really said was something to the effect of "Yes, I used Winstrol to harden up a little before the contest, but the real effort was put in the gym, working hard."

^ Something very close to that.

Its #14, May 1979 here, with the Serge Nubret cover, and the woman who appears to be half Black/half Asian:

https://vintagemusclemags.com/mags.php?c=174

I think it's for sale on that website.  I couldn't find it on EBAY.  I'm almost certain I have it in storage somewhere, lol.

[Taffin]

Serge continued with his natural talk up til his death. Shortly before he died some promotor said he got Segre drugs during his seminar tour. They had some disagreement so the guy posted that on FB
I don't know if the circumstances around his death came out? There was some chatter about insulin overdose or something IIRC?

I thought his kid(s) poisoned him somehow to get their inheritance early..?  Wasn't one of his daughters a physician or surgeon or something?  With access to dangerous stuff 

[a_pupil]

Serge continued with his natural talk up til his death. Shortly before he died some promotor said he got Segre drugs during his seminar tour. They had some disagreement so the guy posted that on FB
I don't know if the circumstances around his death came out? There was some chatter about insulin overdose or something IIRC?

Serge was a nice guy and gave a lot of time to the forum incels. But a lot of the claims were silly. He was the black caesar of parabolin. I remember getting real stringy doing his light weight pump workouts while clean.

I think it's more likely to be an insulin overdose vs getting poisoned, as he was broke so his kids didn't have much to gain.

The weird thing was that someone logged into his account to say his kids were conspiring against him.

[tres_taco_combo]

Good answer, i found that 2 iu is great for just general benefits.  I never had glucose issues until i got in the 4-5 iu range, but it's smart to keep an eye on it.

I am excited to use 2IU per day long term. I am very much into anti aging/health so i realize it is a compound effect

[Gregzs]

17 Days Out

[AbrahamG]

17 Days Out

I root for this guy to do well.  Hopefully, he is judged fairly and lands solidly in the top 10.