US Church backs same-sex marriage

[egj13]

Unless you believe homosexuality is a choice then nature created homosexuals. If nature created them how are they not natural?

If you truly didn't care what two men/women do then you wouldn't care if "future generations" believe their existence is natural or not. Overall though I'm glad to see the tone of your post is mellow. As I've said a hundred times I respect and applaud anyone's right to dislike and voice displeasure with homosexuality. It's the desire to control how they can live that I question.

I think you asked me this the other day. While I do think a small majority of people are born "with the wires crossed" the majority of homosexuals choose to be that way (that is what I think). I truly don't care what they do in their own time, but I don't like seeing the moral fiber of our country going by the wayside. 85% of the people in America

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

claim a religion that dissaproves of homosexuality. I find it odd that such a country would adopt a stance that homosexuality is "right".  Your thoughts?

[Straw Man]

I thought you didn't discuss and/or debate religion?  No . . . wait. . . Never mind. 

My point is obvious.  There are black, white, and gray areas in the Bible.  Condemnation of homosexuality falls into the black and white area.  It's a no brainer.  I can't understand for the life of me why homosexual marriage would even be debated in a church that follows the Bible. 

Who says?

You?

If not you then who is the "authority" who get's to decide the black and white from the gray?

Is the part where it gives instructions on how to sell your daughter into slavery a gray area?  How about the part where your daughter is stoned to death if she's not a virgin on her wedding night, and on and on....

BTW - just to be clear - IMO - the bible is nothing more than a collection of stories written by a bunch of guys, chosen (by a bunch of other guys) from a much larger group of stories, translated, mistranslated, redacted, etc....  I couldn't give a shit about any of it.   That's why you won't see me posting on the religion board. 

[Dos Equis]

Who says?

You?

If not you then who is the "authority" who get's to decide the black and white from the gray?

Is the part where it gives instructions on how to sell your daughter into slavery a gray area?  How about the part where your daughter is stoned to death if she's not a virgin on her wedding night, and on and on....

BTW - just to be clear - IMO - the bible is nothing more than a collection of stories written by a bunch of guys, chosen (by a bunch of other guys) from a much larger group of stories, translated, mistranslated, redacted, etc....  I couldn't give a shit about any of it.   That's why you won't see me posting on the religion board. 

You don't care about it, yet you keep talking about it.  Why don't you quote chapter and verse again? 

Being literate and having common sense says the Bible condemns homosexuality.  Any church that bases its religion on traditional Bibles (e.g., the King James Version) cannot endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring both the Old and New Testament.  They all say the same thing:  homosexuality is wrong.  This isn't an unclear part of the Bible. 

And it doesn't matter what you think about the Bible.  The issue is whether a church that supposedly follows the Bible can endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring and/or rewriting the very book that forms the foundation of their beliefs.   

[24KT]

You don't care about it, yet you keep talking about it.  Why don't you quote chapter and verse again? 

Being literate and having common sense says the Bible condemns homosexuality.  Any church that bases its religion on traditional Bibles (e.g., the King James Version) cannot endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring both the Old and New Testament.  They all say the same thing:  homosexuality is wrong.  This isn't an unclear part of the Bible. 

And it doesn't matter what you think about the Bible.  The issue is whether a church that supposedly follows the Bible can endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring and/or rewriting the very book that forms the foundation of their beliefs.   

That's part of the problem with Christianity. The religion is based on the bible... rather than on the Christ.

That may seem like cryptic gibberish to you, ...but that's ok, ...when you're ready to understand it, ...you will. 

[Dos Equis]

That's part of the problem with Christianity. The religion is based on the bible... rather than on the Christ.

That may seem like cryptic gibberish to you, ...but that's ok, ...when you're ready to understand it, ...you will. 

Not true.  Part of the problem with Christianity is Christians who don't consistently follow Christian teachings and principles, like a church that endorses homosexual marriage.  Just mind-boggling.  And one of the primary ways many people find Christ is through the Bible. 

[24KT]

Not true.  Part of the problem with Christianity is Christians who don't consistently follow Christian teachings and principles, like a church that endorses homosexual marriage.  Just mind-boggling.  And one of the primary ways many people find Christ is through the Bible. 

No, ...they find it through other Christians who lead them to the bible. Don't put the cart in front of the horse.

[Dos Equis]

No, ...they find it through other Christians who lead them to the bible. Don't put the cart in front of the horse.

That's what is called a distinction without a difference.   

[24KT]

That's what is called a distinction without a difference.   

When you find Christ within yourself, ...you'll both see and understand the difference. 

[Dos Equis]

When you find Christ within yourself, ...you'll both see and understand the difference. 

Um. . . O.K. 

[Colossus_500]

When you find Christ within yourself, ...you'll both see and understand the difference. 

[Old_Rooster]

Whoa, I know my Baptist church will never back same sex marriage, its against gods will.
Sorry, my belief is same sex lovers will burn in hell for eternity.

[Straw Man]

You don't care about it, yet you keep talking about it.  Why don't you quote chapter and verse again? 

Being literate and having common sense says the Bible condemns homosexuality.  Any church that bases its religion on traditional Bibles (e.g., the King James Version) cannot endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring both the Old and New Testament.  They all say the same thing:  homosexuality is wrong.  This isn't an unclear part of the Bible. 

And it doesn't matter what you think about the Bible.  The issue is whether a church that supposedly follows the Bible can endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring and/or rewriting the very book that forms the foundation of their beliefs.   

I'm not talking about it other than responding to you in a thread where it is the subject.

Why do you always divert rather than responding to me?

If this point (homsexuality)  is so clear then why does a church with a million member's not see it?

I understand that YOU think that the bible is CLEAR on homosexuality but you also say that some areas are GRAY

I asked you:   Who's the authority on the GRAY from the BLACK and WHITE?

Why did you not answer - this is the crux of the problem (who is THE DECIDER) and I'm looking to you to explain it to me

This passage from Deuteronomy Chapter 22 seems pretty clear to me:

"But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

That seems pretty clear to me - Do you agree?

If that's too difficult then let's start with a less inflammatory subject than your daughter being stoned to death by your neighbors.

"Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering." (1 Corinthians 11:13-15)

How  long does a woman's hair have to be or conversely what is too short?

I don't get it.  Why does God care about the length of a womans hair?

How about a couple more from from Deuteronomy

22:10. Thou shalt not plough with an ox and an ass together.
22:11. Thou shalt not wear a garment that is woven of woollen and linen together

Are these gray areas?  Again - why does God carea about these things?

I'm confused - since these things are so clear to you I'm appealing to you to help me understand

[Dos Equis]

I'm not talking about it other than responding to you in a thread where it is the subject.

Why do you always divert rather than responding to me?

If this point (homsexuality)  is so clear then why does a church with a million member's not see it?

I understand that YOU think that the bible is CLEAR on homosexuality but you also say that some areas are GRAY

I asked you:   Who's the authority on the GRAY from the BLACK and WHITE?

Why did you not answer - this is the crux of the problem (who is THE DECIDER) and I'm looking to you to explain it to me

This passage from Deuteronomy Chapter 22 seems pretty clear to me:

"But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

That seems pretty clear to me - Do you agree?

If that's too difficult then let's start with a less inflammatory subject than your daughter being stoned to death by your neighbors.

"Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering." (1 Corinthians 11:13-15)

How  long does a woman's hair have to be or conversely what is too short?

I don't get it.  Why does God care about the length of a womans hair?

How about a couple more from from Deuteronomy

22:10. Thou shalt not plough with an ox and an ass together.
22:11. Thou shalt not wear a garment that is woven of woollen and linen together

Are these gray areas?  Again - why does God carea about these things?

I'm confused - since these things are so clear to you I'm appealing to you to help me understand

quote author=Straw Man link=topic=142774.msg2023333#msg2023333 date=1177262640]
I never debate religion and I've never post on the religion board (I've only looked at it once or twice) 

In my opinion it's pointless to debate with someone who holds a position without evidence or in contrary to evidence.

Besides, my personal belief is anyone who holds a fundamentalist belief in any religion is mentally ill (for real) which again makes for a pointless discussion

 

Your doublespeak notwithstanding, once again you are all over the map.  The issue is whether a church that follows the Bible can endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring the crystal clear admonitions against homosexuality.  The answer is obviously "no." 

As I've said, the fact that this is even debated in a church is mind-boggling.

Since you have shown a proclivity for quoting the Bible, why don't you quote the numerous passages in the Old and New Testament that condemn homosexuality? 

[Straw Man]

Your doublespeak notwithstanding, once again you are all over the map.  The issue is whether a church that follows the Bible can endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring the crystal clear admonitions against homosexuality.  The answer is obviously "no." 

As I've said, the fact that this is even debated in a church is mind-boggling.

Since you have shown a proclivity for quoting the Bible, why don't you quote the numerous passages in the Old and New Testament that condemn homosexuality? 

I'm aware that these types of questions are clear to you and that's why I'm asking you to help me understand these other issues.

Why do you constantly avoid additional questions

Plain and Simple -

1.  who get's to decided between black and white vs.  gray

2.  Do you agree that it's acceptable, in fact required, that your daughter be stoned to death on your front porch if it is discovered she is not a virgin on her wedding night - YES or NO

[Camel Jockey]

If I decide to start a cult following and I don't want to allow ginger haired people in; I'm within my rights and no one should be able to question me.

If the faith specifically condemns homosexuality then you can't start up some politically correct nonsense and say you're being discriminated against. Religion is a private thing and as long as a church doesn't recieve public funding it should be okay from them to discriminate.

[Dos Equis]

I'm aware that these types of questions are clear to you and that's why I'm asking you to help me understand these other issues.

Why do you constantly avoid additional questions

Plain and Simple -

1.  who get's to decided between black and white vs.  gray

2.  Do you agree that it's acceptable, in fact required, that your daughter be stoned to death on your front porch if it is discovered she is not a virgin on her wedding night - YES or NO

1.  "Being literate and having common sense says the Bible condemns homosexuality.  Any church that bases its religion on traditional Bibles (e.g., the King James Version) cannot endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring both the Old and New Testament.  They all say the same thing:  homosexuality is wrong.  This isn't an unclear part of the Bible."

2.  What the heck are you talking about?  The issue is a church's endorsement of homosexual marriage.  So, you don't get a "yes" or "no" answer to your completely irrelevant and dumb question.    

3.  Quote the passages of the Bible that condemn homosexuality.  

[Dos Equis]

If I decide to start a cult following and I don't want to allow ginger haired people in; I'm within my rights and no one should be able to question me.

If the faith specifically condemns homosexuality then you can't start up some politically correct nonsense and say you're being discriminated against. Religion is a private thing and as long as a church doesn't recieve public funding it should be okay from them to discriminate.

Ding ding ding!     That's the right answer. 

[Camel Jockey]

Ding ding ding!     That's the right answer. 

We actually agree on something!

[Dos Equis]

We actually agree on something!

Stop the presses!     Next thing you know Jag will agree with me.   

[Straw Man]

1.  "Being literate and having common sense says the Bible condemns homosexuality.  Any church that bases its religion on traditional Bibles (e.g., the King James Version) cannot endorse homosexual marriage without ignoring both the Old and New Testament.  They all say the same thing:  homosexuality is wrong.  This isn't an unclear part of the Bible."

2.  What the heck are you talking about?  The issue is a church's endorsement of homosexual marriage.  So, you don't get a "yes" or "no" answer to your completely irrelevant and dumb question.    

3.  Quote the passages of the Bible that condemn homosexuality.  

Gee what a suprise - another response without answering my questions.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm talking to a child at the end of this computer

Don't you see that I'm really trying hard to understand your point of view

The Bible condemns seems to condemns MANY things so please help me understand how I should decide what stuff is Black and White (such as homosexuality) and what is stuff is Gray

[Camel Jockey]

Stop the presses!     Next thing you know Jag will agree with me.   

Then 240! Damn I went too far.  

[Straw Man]

We actually agree on something!

I'm fine with that and assume you're also agreeing that Christianity is a cult

How does one then interpret the sacred text of said religion - it seems like you take some stuff literally but then you ignore other stuff in part or in whole.

as I've asked from the beginning - who decides and What are the criteria?

Why are you incapable of answering this question?

[Dos Equis]

Gee what a suprise - another response without answering my questions.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm talking to a child at the end of this computer

Don't you see that I'm really trying hard to understand your point of view

The Bible condemns seems to condemns MANY things so please help me understand how I should decide what stuff is Black and White (such as homosexuality) and what is stuff is Gray

Aw.  Is Straw Man frustrated because I won't answer his dumb, irrelevant question?    

Why exactly do you need to understand something you don't even talk about or think about?  When I read things like this:

Quote
quote author=Straw Man
I never debate religion and I've never post on the religion board (I've only looked at it once or twice)  

In my opinion it's pointless to debate with someone who holds a position without evidence or in contrary to evidence.

Besides, my personal belief is anyone who holds a fundamentalist belief in any religion is mentally ill (for real) which again makes for a pointless discussion

I become very cynical of any questions you ask.  I don't believe you are truly interested in discussing issues.  You simply try and find contradictions, "hypocrisy," etc.  That explains why, even though you "never debate religion,"    you quote chapter and verse when you think it supports whatever point you're trying to make.  It also explains why you refuse to quote the passages in the Bible, Old and New Testament, that condemn homosexuality.

You are disingenuous.  That's why I'm cynical of most of the questions you ask me.

Hope this heps.    

[Dos Equis]

Then 240! Damn I went too far.  

Hey anything is possible.   

[Straw Man]

I thought you didn't discuss and/or debate religion?  No . . . wait. . . Never mind. 

My point is obvious.  There are black, white, and gray areas in the Bible.  Condemnation of homosexuality falls into the black and white area.  It's a no brainer.  I can't understand for the life of me why homosexual marriage would even be debated in a church that follows the Bible. 

BB - I was responding to your comment above that some areas are black and white and some are gray

Why are you incapable of explaining this comment.  I've given you easy examples.  You should be able to apply your logic to more than the topic of homosexuality

Why are you incapable of extending your OBVIOUS point to another subject within the bible???