Author Topic: How much do you bench?  (Read 56538 times)

nasum

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #450 on: May 20, 2014, 05:30:53 PM »
Everyone should get good at benching, it really enhances all areas of your life and makes you a multi-faceted well rounded human being.
pr

But in reality, is there any harm in indulging the primordial thrill one gets from launching a heavy fucking weight off your chest?

Obviously bench pressing is way way down on the list of life skills one should aspire to obtain. But if you've already ticked those boxes then it sure is *fun*.

In other news I wrecked my pb by pause repping (2-3 second pauses) 145kg for 6 reps. I believe that puts me over 180kg for a 1 rep max but i'm not going to test it just yet.

OTHstrong

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #451 on: May 20, 2014, 06:48:09 PM »
Everyone should get good at benching, it really enhances all areas of your life and makes you a multi-faceted well rounded human being.
In the jungle the Lion roars in the gym the bench is the pride of most lifters since the 60's.

If you can not bench, you are not a gym warrior, simple as that. Only exception is if you are injured or if benching cause inappropriate soreness.

Most common question in the world of the gym, ''what do you bench'' it counts bro, stop playing dumb.  ;)

if this is too childish for you then get the fuck off a hardcore bodybuilding forum, lol   :-\

Simple Simon

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #452 on: May 20, 2014, 09:48:57 PM »
In the jungle the Lion roars in the gym the bench is the pride of most lifters since the 60's.

If you can not bench, you are not a gym warrior, simple as that. Only exception is if you are injured or if benching cause inappropriate soreness.

Most common question in the world of the gym, ''what do you bench'' it counts bro, stop playing dumb.  ;)

if this is too childish for you then get the fuck off a hardcore bodybuilding forum, lol   :-\

I would sooner go in and train with my power bands and put 95% of the guys in my gym to shame than be a "Bench Warrior"

I take pride in telling people I dont bench and watch their quizzical expressions as my shoulders and arms bulge through my t-shirt as I take a sip from my water.  ;D

ESFitness

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #453 on: May 20, 2014, 10:20:21 PM »
I would sooner go in and train with my power bands and put 95% of the guys in my gym to shame than be a "Bench Warrior"

I take pride in telling people I dont bench and watch their quizzical expressions as my shoulders and arms bulge through my t-shirt as I take a sip from my water.  ;D

I've gone ahead and highlighted aspects pertaining to yourself.... you're welcome.

Grandiose delusions

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Delusions of grandeur" redirects here. For other uses, see Delusions of grandeur (disambiguation).

Not to be confused with Grandiosity.

Grandiose delusions (GD) or delusions of grandeur is principally a subtype of delusional disorder that occurs in patients suffering from a wide range of mental illnesses, including two-thirds of patients in manic state of bipolar disorder, half of those with schizophrenia and a substantial portion of those with substance abuse disorders.[1][2] GDs are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme. There is a relative lack of research into GD, in comparison to persecutory delusions and auditory hallucinations. About 10% of healthy people experience grandiose thoughts but do not meet full criteria for a diagnosis of GD.

Prevalence[edit]

Research suggests that the severity of the delusions of grandeur is directly related to a higher self-esteem in individuals and inversely related to any individual’s severity of depression and negative self-evaluations.[3] Lucas et al. found that there is no significant gender difference in the establishment of grandiose delusion. However, there is a claim that ‘the particular component of Grandiose delusion’ may be variable across both genders.[2] Also, it had been noted that the presence of GDs in people with at least grammar or high school education was greater than lesser educated persons. Similarly, the presence of grandiose delusions in individuals who are the eldest is greater than in individuals who are the youngest of their siblings.[4]

Symptoms[edit]

According to the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria for delusional disorder, grandiose-type symptoms include grossly exaggerated belief of:
self-worth
power[5]
knowledge
identity
exceptional relationship to a divinity or famous person.[6]

For example, a patient who has fictitious beliefs about his or her power or authority may believe himself or herself to be a ruling monarch who deserves to be treated like royalty.[7] There are substantial differences in the degree of grandiosity linked with grandiose delusions in different patients. Some patients believe they are God, the Queen of England, a president's son, a famous rock star, and so on. Others are not as expansive and think they are skilled sports-persons or great inventors.[8]

Expansive delusions[edit]

Expansive delusions may be maintained by auditory hallucinations, which advise the patient that they are significant, or confabulations, when, for example, the patient gives a thorough description of their coronation or marriage to the king. Grandiose and expansive delusions may also be part of fantastic hallucinosis in which all forms of hallucinations occur.[8]

Positive functions[edit]

Grandiose delusions frequently serve a very positive function for the person of sustaining or increasing their self-esteem. As a result, it is important to consider what the consequences of removing the grandiose delusion are on self-esteem when trying to modify the grandiose delusion in therapy.[5] In many instances of grandiosity it is suitable to go for a fractional rather than a total modification, which permits those elements of the delusion that are central for self-esteem to be preserved. For example, a man who believes he is a senior secret service agent gains a great sense of self-esteem and purpose from this belief, thus until this sense of self-esteem can be provided from elsewhere, it is best not to attempt modification.[5]

Accounts of delusion[edit]

There are two alternative accounts for getting grandiose delusions:[9]
Delusion-as-defense account: defense of the mind against lower self-esteem and depression
Emotion-consistent account: result of exaggerated emotions.

Epidemiology[edit]

In researching over 1000 individuals of vast range of backgrounds, Stompe and colleagues (2006) found that grandiosity remains as the second most common delusion after persecutory delusions.[2] A variation in the occurrence of grandiosity delusions in schizophrenic patients across cultures has also been observed.[10][11] In research done by Appelbaum et al. it has been found that GDs appeared more commonly in patients with bipolar disorder (59%) than in patients with schizophrenia (49%), followed by presence in substance misuse disorder patients (30%) and depressed patients (21%).[2]

A relationship has been claimed between the age of onset of bipolar disorder and the occurrence of GDs. According to Carlson et al. (2000), grandiose delusions appeared in 74% of the patients who were 21 or lower at the time of the onset, while they occurred only in 40% of individuals 30 years or older at the time of the onset.[2]

Diagnosis[edit]

Patients with a wide range of mental disorders which disturb brain function experience different kinds of delusions, including grandiose delusions.[12] Grandiose delusions usually occur in patients with syndromes associated with secondary mania, such as Huntington's disease,[13] Parkinson's disease,[14] and Wilson's disease.[15] Secondary mania has also been caused by substances such as levodopa and isoniazid which modify the monoaminergic neurotransmitter function.[16] Vitamin B12 deficiency,[17] uremia,[18] hyperthyroidism[19] as well as the carcinoid syndrome[20] have been found to cause secondary mania, and thus grandiose delusions.

In diagnosing delusions, the MacArthur-Maudsley Assessment of Delusions Schedule is used to assess the patient.[21]

Comorbidity[edit]

Schizophrenia[edit]

Main article: Schizophrenia

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder distinguished by a loss of contact with reality and the occurrence of psychotic behaviors, including hallucinations and delusions (unreal beliefs which endure even when there is contrary evidence).[22] Delusions may include the false and constant idea that the person is being followed or poisoned, or that the person’s thoughts are being broadcast for others to listen to. Delusions in schizophrenia often develop as a response to the individual attempting to explain their hallucinations.[22] Patients who experience recurrent auditory hallucinations can develop the delusion that other people are scheming against them and are dishonest when they say they do not hear the voices that the delusioned person believes that he or she hears.[22]

Specifically, grandiose delusions are frequently found predominantly in paranoid schizophrenia, in which a person has an extremely exaggerated sense of his or her significance, personality, knowledge, or authority. For example, the person may possibly declare to own IBM and kindly offer to write a hospital staff member a check for $5 million if they would only help them escape from the hospital.[23] Other common grandiose delusions in schizophrenia include religious delusions such as the belief that one is Jesus Christ.[24] A 2012 paper suggested that psychiatric conditions associated with psychotic spectrum symptoms, that may include grandiose delusions, may be possible explanations for revelatory driven experiences and activities such as those of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and Saint Paul.[25]

Bipolar disorder[edit]

Main article: Bipolar disorder

Bipolar disorder is severe affective dysregulation, or mood states that sway from exceedingly low (depression) to exceptionally high (mania).[26] Bipolar patients with grandiose delusions are essentially high on themselves. If they convey any feelings of aggravation at all, these at most characterize secondary anxiety that others will be jealous of them and hold them back from getting what they are entitled to, or seize what they already have.[27]

Bipolar patients experience delusion during the worse part of their illness. Typically, when experiencing or displaying a stage of heightened excitability, joy, rage, senselessness, and correlated phenomena they might convey thoughts or beliefs that are grandiose in nature. Some of these grandiose beliefs frequently involve thoughts that the patient is very rich or famous or has super human abilities, etc.[28] In the most severe form, known as psychotic mania, the bipolar patient may hear voices and have grandiose delusions such as "I am the King of England".[29]

Anatomical aspects[edit]

Grandiose delusions are frequently and almost certainly related to lesions of the frontal lobe. Temporal lobe lesions have been mainly reported in patients with delusions of persecution and of remorse, while frontal and frontotemporal involvement have been described in patients with grandiose delusions, Cotard’s syndrome, and delusional misidentification syndrome.[30]

Treatment[edit]

Patients suffering from schizophrenia, grandiose and religious delusions are found to be the least susceptible to cognitive behavioral interventions.[21] Cognitive behavioral intervention is a form of psychological therapy, initially used for depression,[31] but currently used for a variety of different mental disorders, in hope of providing relief from distress and disability.[32] During therapy, grandiose delusions were linked to patients' underlying beliefs by using inference chaining.[31][33] Some examples of interventions performed to improve the patient's state were focus on specific themes, clarification of neologisms, and thought linkage.[33] During thought linkage, the patient is asked repeatedly by the therapist to explain his/her jumps in thought from one subject, to a completely different one.[33]

Patients suffering from mental disorders that experience grandiose delusions have been found to have a lower risk of having suicidal thoughts and attempts.[34]

Simple Simon

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #454 on: May 20, 2014, 10:22:49 PM »
I've gone ahead and highlighted aspects pertaining to yourself.... you're welcome.

Grandiose delusions

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Delusions of grandeur" redirects here. For other uses, see Delusions of grandeur (disambiguation).

Not to be confused with Grandiosity.

Grandiose delusions (GD) or delusions of grandeur is principally a subtype of delusional disorder that occurs in patients suffering from a wide range of mental illnesses, including two-thirds of patients in manic state of bipolar disorder, half of those with schizophrenia and a substantial portion of those with substance abuse disorders.[1][2] GDs are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme. There is a relative lack of research into GD, in comparison to persecutory delusions and auditory hallucinations. About 10% of healthy people experience grandiose thoughts but do not meet full criteria for a diagnosis of GD.

Prevalence[edit]

Research suggests that the severity of the delusions of grandeur is directly related to a higher self-esteem in individuals and inversely related to any individual’s severity of depression and negative self-evaluations.[3] Lucas et al. found that there is no significant gender difference in the establishment of grandiose delusion. However, there is a claim that ‘the particular component of Grandiose delusion’ may be variable across both genders.[2] Also, it had been noted that the presence of GDs in people with at least grammar or high school education was greater than lesser educated persons. Similarly, the presence of grandiose delusions in individuals who are the eldest is greater than in individuals who are the youngest of their siblings.[4]

Symptoms[edit]

According to the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria for delusional disorder, grandiose-type symptoms include grossly exaggerated belief of:
self-worth
power[5]
knowledge
identity
exceptional relationship to a divinity or famous person.[6]

For example, a patient who has fictitious beliefs about his or her power or authority may believe himself or herself to be a ruling monarch who deserves to be treated like royalty.[7] There are substantial differences in the degree of grandiosity linked with grandiose delusions in different patients. Some patients believe they are God, the Queen of England, a president's son, a famous rock star, and so on. Others are not as expansive and think they are skilled sports-persons or great inventors.[8]

Expansive delusions[edit]

Expansive delusions may be maintained by auditory hallucinations, which advise the patient that they are significant, or confabulations, when, for example, the patient gives a thorough description of their coronation or marriage to the king. Grandiose and expansive delusions may also be part of fantastic hallucinosis in which all forms of hallucinations occur.[8]

Positive functions[edit]

Grandiose delusions frequently serve a very positive function for the person of sustaining or increasing their self-esteem. As a result, it is important to consider what the consequences of removing the grandiose delusion are on self-esteem when trying to modify the grandiose delusion in therapy.[5] In many instances of grandiosity it is suitable to go for a fractional rather than a total modification, which permits those elements of the delusion that are central for self-esteem to be preserved. For example, a man who believes he is a senior secret service agent gains a great sense of self-esteem and purpose from this belief, thus until this sense of self-esteem can be provided from elsewhere, it is best not to attempt modification.[5]

Accounts of delusion[edit]

There are two alternative accounts for getting grandiose delusions:[9]
Delusion-as-defense account: defense of the mind against lower self-esteem and depression
Emotion-consistent account: result of exaggerated emotions.

Epidemiology[edit]

In researching over 1000 individuals of vast range of backgrounds, Stompe and colleagues (2006) found that grandiosity remains as the second most common delusion after persecutory delusions.[2] A variation in the occurrence of grandiosity delusions in schizophrenic patients across cultures has also been observed.[10][11] In research done by Appelbaum et al. it has been found that GDs appeared more commonly in patients with bipolar disorder (59%) than in patients with schizophrenia (49%), followed by presence in substance misuse disorder patients (30%) and depressed patients (21%).[2]

A relationship has been claimed between the age of onset of bipolar disorder and the occurrence of GDs. According to Carlson et al. (2000), grandiose delusions appeared in 74% of the patients who were 21 or lower at the time of the onset, while they occurred only in 40% of individuals 30 years or older at the time of the onset.[2]

Diagnosis[edit]

Patients with a wide range of mental disorders which disturb brain function experience different kinds of delusions, including grandiose delusions.[12] Grandiose delusions usually occur in patients with syndromes associated with secondary mania, such as Huntington's disease,[13] Parkinson's disease,[14] and Wilson's disease.[15] Secondary mania has also been caused by substances such as levodopa and isoniazid which modify the monoaminergic neurotransmitter function.[16] Vitamin B12 deficiency,[17] uremia,[18] hyperthyroidism[19] as well as the carcinoid syndrome[20] have been found to cause secondary mania, and thus grandiose delusions.

In diagnosing delusions, the MacArthur-Maudsley Assessment of Delusions Schedule is used to assess the patient.[21]

Comorbidity[edit]

Schizophrenia[edit]

Main article: Schizophrenia

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder distinguished by a loss of contact with reality and the occurrence of psychotic behaviors, including hallucinations and delusions (unreal beliefs which endure even when there is contrary evidence).[22] Delusions may include the false and constant idea that the person is being followed or poisoned, or that the person’s thoughts are being broadcast for others to listen to. Delusions in schizophrenia often develop as a response to the individual attempting to explain their hallucinations.[22] Patients who experience recurrent auditory hallucinations can develop the delusion that other people are scheming against them and are dishonest when they say they do not hear the voices that the delusioned person believes that he or she hears.[22]

Specifically, grandiose delusions are frequently found predominantly in paranoid schizophrenia, in which a person has an extremely exaggerated sense of his or her significance, personality, knowledge, or authority. For example, the person may possibly declare to own IBM and kindly offer to write a hospital staff member a check for $5 million if they would only help them escape from the hospital.[23] Other common grandiose delusions in schizophrenia include religious delusions such as the belief that one is Jesus Christ.[24] A 2012 paper suggested that psychiatric conditions associated with psychotic spectrum symptoms, that may include grandiose delusions, may be possible explanations for revelatory driven experiences and activities such as those of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and Saint Paul.[25]

Bipolar disorder[edit]

Main article: Bipolar disorder

Bipolar disorder is severe affective dysregulation, or mood states that sway from exceedingly low (depression) to exceptionally high (mania).[26] Bipolar patients with grandiose delusions are essentially high on themselves. If they convey any feelings of aggravation at all, these at most characterize secondary anxiety that others will be jealous of them and hold them back from getting what they are entitled to, or seize what they already have.[27]

Bipolar patients experience delusion during the worse part of their illness. Typically, when experiencing or displaying a stage of heightened excitability, joy, rage, senselessness, and correlated phenomena they might convey thoughts or beliefs that are grandiose in nature. Some of these grandiose beliefs frequently involve thoughts that the patient is very rich or famous or has super human abilities, etc.[28] In the most severe form, known as psychotic mania, the bipolar patient may hear voices and have grandiose delusions such as "I am the King of England".[29]

Anatomical aspects[edit]

Grandiose delusions are frequently and almost certainly related to lesions of the frontal lobe. Temporal lobe lesions have been mainly reported in patients with delusions of persecution and of remorse, while frontal and frontotemporal involvement have been described in patients with grandiose delusions, Cotard’s syndrome, and delusional misidentification syndrome.[30]

Treatment[edit]

Patients suffering from schizophrenia, grandiose and religious delusions are found to be the least susceptible to cognitive behavioral interventions.[21] Cognitive behavioral intervention is a form of psychological therapy, initially used for depression,[31] but currently used for a variety of different mental disorders, in hope of providing relief from distress and disability.[32] During therapy, grandiose delusions were linked to patients' underlying beliefs by using inference chaining.[31][33] Some examples of interventions performed to improve the patient's state were focus on specific themes, clarification of neologisms, and thought linkage.[33] During thought linkage, the patient is asked repeatedly by the therapist to explain his/her jumps in thought from one subject, to a completely different one.[33]

Patients suffering from mental disorders that experience grandiose delusions have been found to have a lower risk of having suicidal thoughts and attempts.[34]


OTHstrong

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #455 on: May 20, 2014, 11:29:15 PM »
I would sooner go in and train with my power bands and put 95% of the guys in my gym to shame than be a "Bench Warrior"

I take pride in telling people I dont bench and watch their quizzical expressions as my shoulders and arms bulge through my t-shirt as I take a sip from my water.  ;D
well can not argue your physique, that's for dam sure, you look amazing  ;)

bigmc

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #456 on: May 21, 2014, 04:36:45 AM »
I would sooner go in and train with my power bands and put 95% of the guys in my gym to shame than be a "Bench Warrior"

I take pride in telling people I dont bench and watch their quizzical expressions as my shoulders and arms bulge through my t-shirt as I take a sip from my water.  ;D

you've been reading too many of groinks posts  :D
T

Grape Ape

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #457 on: May 21, 2014, 05:30:19 AM »
I take pride in telling people I dont bench and watch their quizzical expressions as my shoulders and arms bulge through my t-shirt as I take a sip from my water.  ;D

That happened to me the other day, then I realized I put on my son's under armour by mistake.
Y

flinstones1

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #458 on: May 21, 2014, 01:33:55 PM »
In the jungle the Lion roars in the gym the bench is the pride of most lifters since the 60's.

If you can not bench, you are not a gym warrior, simple as that. Only exception is if you are injured or if benching cause inappropriate soreness.

Most common question in the world of the gym, ''what do you bench'' it counts bro, stop playing dumb.  ;)

if this is too childish for you then get the fuck off a hardcore bodybuilding forum, lol   :-\

 QFT. in the past 48 hours I've had two girls as me how much I can bench. Not even bikini  competitors, just little gym rats. It's the test of manhood and every guy should chase a big bench IMO. Im actually going to put together a 12 week training program for mine.

probably one max effort day and one light day.
l

Simple Simon

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #459 on: May 21, 2014, 01:37:04 PM »
QFT. in the past 48 hours I've had two girls as me how much I can bench. Not even bikini  competitors, just little gym rats. It's the test of manhood and every guy should chase a big bench IMO.
You should mix in the company of adults, you wont get asked that question too often if you do.

ESFitness

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #460 on: May 21, 2014, 01:45:09 PM »
seems 7/10 times I got to walmart I get asked 'damn bro.. how much do you bench?', either by some dude holding a petition looking for signatures or the dude bagging my items. my usual reply is 'oh, about 525.. I'm been going easy lately' lol.. dumbasses can't tell i'm fucking with them... then half the time they ask how do they trim down their stomach, and i'm tempted to tell them the old Nasser line of "cat food is the best diet food", but I just tell them the generic "diet dude.. no more pizza and bread, ect..".

the guys who ask how much you bench are either old ex-drug addicts or young 19yr old kids who don't know what a deadlift is.

Waller

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #461 on: May 21, 2014, 01:47:19 PM »
I think the majority of the time when I've been asked what I bench it's blatantly by someone who wouldn't know the difference between kg and lbs.  I just make shit up to amuse myself

The Ugly

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #462 on: May 21, 2014, 02:17:57 PM »
seems 7/10 times I got to walmart I get asked 'damn bro.. how much do you bench?', either by some dude holding a petition looking for signatures or the dude bagging my items. my usual reply is 'oh, about 525.. I'm been going easy lately' lol.. dumbasses can't tell i'm fucking with them... then half the time they ask how do they trim down their stomach, and i'm tempted to tell them the old Nasser line of "cat food is the best diet food", but I just tell them the generic "diet dude.. no more pizza and bread, ect..".

the guys who ask how much you bench are either old ex-drug addicts or young 19yr old kids who don't know what a deadlift is.



Only clip I could find.

flinstones1

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #463 on: May 22, 2014, 01:53:17 PM »

you take two guys
one guy benches  315 20 times naturally
another guy benches 315 20 times but he's on a bunch of androgens

assuming both have equal muscle fiber types, the same technique, I think the guy on drugs will probably have a  much better one rep max.
l

Simple Simon

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #464 on: May 22, 2014, 01:55:35 PM »
you take two guys
one guy benches  315 20 times naturally
another guy benches 315 20 times but he's on a bunch of androgens

assuming both have equal muscle fiber types, the same technique, I think the guy on drugs will probably have a  much better one rep max.

All that for a "thought"

Fortress

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #465 on: May 22, 2014, 02:05:08 PM »
Last night I smashed five competition-style singles with 405. No hand-offs.

 8)

Simple Simon

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #466 on: May 22, 2014, 02:07:54 PM »
Last night I smashed five competition-style singles with 405. No hand-offs.

 8)
Did you miss "no homo" off that post?

Fortress

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #467 on: May 22, 2014, 02:13:08 PM »
Did you miss "no homo" off that post?

Apparently it really IS only gay if you want it to be.

Clearly you want it to be.

Simple Simon

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #468 on: May 22, 2014, 02:23:27 PM »
Apparently it really IS only gay if you want it to be.

Clearly you want it to be.
Hands off.   :-*

Coach is Back!

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #469 on: May 22, 2014, 02:44:42 PM »
Yesterday...



Fortress

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #470 on: May 22, 2014, 08:02:45 PM »

liquid_c

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #471 on: May 22, 2014, 08:48:13 PM »
Yesterday...




Better bench than 99% of getbig.

Coach is Back!

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #472 on: May 22, 2014, 09:25:43 PM »
Thanks. The only thing I didn't do was pause at the bottom. That's because my spotter (my son) was taking the video.

OTHstrong

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #473 on: May 23, 2014, 06:04:59 PM »
Yesterday...



fuck ya, very nice,  ;) 4plates like nothing

strong for life, coach will be doing 3 plates in his 70's

OTHstrong

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Re: How much do you bench?
« Reply #474 on: May 23, 2014, 06:07:22 PM »
you take two guys
one guy benches  315 20 times naturally
another guy benches 315 20 times but he's on a bunch of androgens

assuming both have equal muscle fiber types, the same technique, I think the guy on drugs will probably have a  much better one rep max.
hmm, interesting, never thought of that and for some reason it seems right