Hugo's hero Hugo becoming quite the dictator!

[loco]

This is funny shit, really.  I specifically tried to keep away from sources like venezuelanalysis.com, vensolidarity.net or handsoffvenezuela.com because I knew they would be pretty instantly put down by default.  So I tried to keep primarily to sources I thought would be considered.  UN, World Bank, Harvard and a few decent commentary sources.  What is documented pretty well is the extreme bias by corporate owned media sources which is your primary sources for quoting information!  LOL...  gee, why would the corporations callaborate with the opposition... duh...

What really just happend was that you were faced with information that was hard to deny so you just said fuck it, I don't trust your sources either.  At least there is valid demonstrated and documented reason for not trusting the corporate run media.  What is your reason for ignoring say, the United Nations ECLAC?

lol...

What are the UN's, World Bank's and Harvard's sources?  The Venezuelan government...ha ha ha.  And I already showed you how those numbers were manipulated.

What really just happend was that you were faced with information that was hard to deny so you just said fuck it, I don't trust your sources

This is all you have ever done when it comes to anyone criticizing your hero.

If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?

[Hugo Chavez]

What an intelligent and insightful response! 

If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?

It's really hard to know for sure.  All we can do is speculate on this!  Even all of the opposition friendly sources that cover this, speculate and can't point to exactly why.  They just blame Chavez.  Well, as long as we're guessing, I personally feel this is probably a factor to any increase in crime;

"And while the opposition is making itself part of these communities, offering alternatives to Chavez's social missions that provide "satisfying short term answers to problems" (as Golinger argues), it is likely (but hard to prove) that they also take advantage of crime networks dating back before Chavez and supply them with or sell them guns or drugs, to perpetrate the crime and instability."

Knowing what lengths the opposition and it's allies are willing to go, I've personally suspected this since I first heard about the numbers and it looks like i'm not the only one suspicious.  This isn't that shocking when you look at things that have happened through the years in terms of Corporate/US intervention in Central and South America.

now i answered something for you, maybe you can address the main question in this post:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=294438.msg4196360#msg4196360

[Hugo Chavez]

What an intelligent and insightful response! 

If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?

It's really hard to know for sure.  All we can do is speculate on this!  Even all of the opposition friendly sources that cover this, speculate and can't point to exactly why.  They just blame Chavez.  Well, as long as we're guessing, I personally feel this is probably a factor to any increase in crime;

"And while the opposition is making itself part of these communities, offering alternatives to Chavez's social missions that provide "satisfying short term answers to problems" (as Golinger argues), it is likely (but hard to prove) that they also take advantage of crime networks dating back before Chavez and supply them with or sell them guns or drugs, to perpetrate the crime and instability."

Knowing what lengths the opposition and it's allies are willing to go, I've personally suspected this since I first heard about the numbers and it looks like i'm not the only one suspicious.  This isn't that shocking when you look at things that have happened through the years in terms of Corporate/US intervention in Central and South America against the left and what they've been willing to do in that opposition.

now i answered something for you, maybe you can address the main question in this post:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=294438.msg4196360#msg4196360

[Hugo Chavez]

What are the UN's, World Bank's and Harvard's sources?  The Venezuelan government...ha ha ha.  And I already showed you how those numbers were manipulated.

This is all you have ever done when it comes to anyone criticizing your hero.

If poverty has so significantly decreased, why the increase in crime?

i thought the World Bank's numbers were independent of the government?  If I'm wrong on that, sorry, can you correct me on that?  The UN material I posted is relevant because it's an independent confirmation of the governments statistical claims!!!!!!!  The harvard source, while using some numbers from the government, does a good job of putting opposition claims in perspective.

[loco]

another point, you bitch that the poverty hasn't come down relative to Venezuela's income.  It's not good enough for you that anyway you look at the data, it has come down significantly.  Only way it doesn't look good is because the opposition loves to take figures from the period effected by the oil strike.  Even the world bank's data places reductions in poverty under Chavez only second to Argentina in South America.  Depends on the data sources and years looked at, but however you dice it, it's a significant decrease.  Now, the way I see it, it's a bloody fucking miracle he pulled that off considering the power of the opposition fighting to prevent any success by Chavez.  A better question would really be to ask, what would be the state of poverty today without such a strong opposition seeking to undermine any success at every turn?  Yea, I guess we won't know the answer to that question.  That's something that's on your shoulders, not mine.  something to think about for anyone with any real morality which is hard if not impossible to find among the opposition.  One thing is for sure, when the opposition was in power, they sure didn't give a rats ass about those people and you know it.  They don't have a lot of high ground to bitch from then do they!!!  All that money would have been pure profit and the poor would still be megaSOL...

Poverty in Venezuela has NOT been reduced significantly.

As for your question about the opposition, I'm not here to discuss conspiracy theories.  I am not "the opposition."

You give the opposition way too much credit.  Chavez is the one with the power, the control and the country's wealth at his finger tips, and all these years in power, way more than any other Venezuelan elected leader ever had in the past.

[loco]

It's really hard to know for sure.  All we can do is speculate on this!  Even all of the opposition friendly sources that cover this, speculate and can't point to exactly why.  They just blame Chavez.  Well, as long as we're guessing, I personally feel this is probably a factor to any increase in crime;

"And while the opposition is making itself part of these communities, offering alternatives to Chavez's social missions that provide "satisfying short term answers to problems" (as Golinger argues), it is likely (but hard to prove) that they also take advantage of crime networks dating back before Chavez and supply them with or sell them guns or drugs, to perpetrate the crime and instability."

Knowing what lengths the opposition and it's allies are willing to go, I've personally suspected this since I first heard about the numbers and it looks like i'm not the only one suspicious.  This isn't that shocking when you look at things that have happened through the years in terms of Corporate/US intervention in Central and South America against the left and what they've been willing to do in that opposition.

now i answered something for you, maybe you can address the main question in this post:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=294438.msg4196360#msg4196360

I have answered you.

No, when the economy is bad and the poor get desperate, crime increases.  You know this and you should be seeing this in your country as well. 

Muggins, carjacking, break ins, and murder are significantly up in Venezuela.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not here to discuss conspiracy theories.

[loco]

i thought the World Bank's numbers were independent of the government?  If I'm wrong on that, sorry, can you correct me on that?  The UN material I posted is relevant because it's an independent confirmation of the governments statistical claims!!!!!!!  The harvard source, while using some numbers from the government, does a good job of putting opposition claims in perspective.

Instituto Nacional de Estadística de Venezuela

[Hugo Chavez]

[loco]

Not sure what you've just posted, but I can't see anything.  I'll try again tonight!   

[Hugo Chavez]

Poverty in Venezuela has NOT been reduced significantly.

As for your question about the opposition, I'm not here to discuss conspiracy theories.  I am not "the opposition."

You give the opposition way too much credit.  Chavez is the one with the power, the control and the country's wealth at his finger tips, and all these years in power, way more than any other Venezuelan elected leader ever had in the past.

Yes it has   Like I said, even the UN personally confirmed the numbers.

It's not a conspiracy theory you fool.  You asked a question that required speculation.  What I gave you is speculation based on a known history of underhaded tactics against the left in Central and South America.  To automatically assume none of that goes on in Venezuela is asking one to be more reaching in their beliefs!!!!  Your last comment is just stupid.  He may be the president, but he has the most powerful structure in the world allied to the opposition and like a said, a long history of covertly attacking anything leftist down there.  What you're asking people to ignore here is the well established history of such behaviour and i think that's a silly thing to ask for

[Hugo Chavez]

As for the rest of your post, I'm not here to discuss conspiracy theories.

You never answered me.  What would the poverty rates be without an opposition that has sought to undermine Hugo's every move?  They have gone down, it's silly that you deny it.  I wonder how it would look without him being undermined in his attempt to lower poverty...  You blame him when what you support is part of the reason it's not better.  So tell me, what would it look like without the intentional undermining of his every move to help the people?

[loco]

Yes it has   Like I said, even the UN personally confirmed the numbers.

It's not a conspiracy theory you fool.  You asked a question that required speculation.  What I gave you is speculation based on a known history of underhaded tactics against the left in Central and South America.  To automatically assume none of that goes on in Venezuela is asking one to be more reaching in their beliefs!!!!  Your last comment is just stupid.  He may be the president, but he has the most powerful structure in the world allied to the opposition and like a said, a long history of covertly attacking anything leftist down there.  What you're asking people to ignore here is the well established history of such behaviour and i think that's a silly thing to ask for

The UN can't confirm anything.  They got their numbers from the Venezuelan government.

I'm not here to discuss speculation.  My question does not require it.  Crime is significantly up and it is an indicator that poverty has not been significantly reduced as you claim.

As for the rest of your post, more conspiracy theories and assumptions on your part.

[Hugo Chavez]

Instituto Nacional de Estadística de Venezuela

how is this a reply to what I asked? What is this for? I know what it is, what are you trying to say.  post a source?  not sure how you're replying to my post with this?

[Hugo Chavez]

The UN can't confirm anything.  They got their numbers from the Venezuelan government.

I'm not here to discuss speculation.  My question does not require it.  Crime is significantly up and it is an indicator that poverty has not been significantly reduced as you claim.

As for the rest of your post, more conspiracy theories and assumptions on your part.

then don't ask my OPINION!!!!  That's ALL the opposition has is an opinion on it.  The other things we've been talking about are not nearly as speculative.  You asked me to speculate with the nature of the question.  And it's not a fucking conspiracy theory, what I said about the history is a fucking well established fact.  That you call it conspiracy just tells me how little you must know about the history of intervention in Central and South America and the nature of it.  Sad, please get educated before you go crying CT...

[loco]

You never answered me.  What would the poverty rates be without an opposition that has sought to undermine Hugo's every move?  They have gone down, it's silly that you deny it.  I wonder how it would look without him being undermined in his attempt to lower poverty...  You blame him when what you support is part of the reason it's not better.  So tell me, what would it look like without the intentional undermining of his every move to help the people?

I have answered you.  The opposition has proved to be powerless as they have gotten nothing they have tried to achieve.

Chavez is not attempting to lower poverty.  And you call me fool.   Chavez's many social programs, rather than being a long-term solution to poverty, are just short-term tactics to boost his popularity.

And what do you mean by "what you support"?  What do you know about what I support?  You are the one supporting a corrupt and immoral leader.

[loco]

then don't ask my OPINION!!!!  That's ALL the opposition has is an opinion on it.  The other things we've been talking about are not nearly as speculative.  You asked me to speculate with the nature of the question.  And it's not a fucking conspiracy theory, what I said about the history is a fucking well established fact.  That you call it conspiracy just tells me how little you must know about the history of intervention in Central and South America and the nature of it.  Sad, please get educated before you go crying CT...

I wasn't asking for your opinion.  You are so sure that poverty has been decreased, you must have some explanation for the significant increase in crime.

I'm aware of the history and I am not denying it.  But going from that to your assumptions and speculations about Venezuela's present time is a conspiracy theory, unless you have solid proof.

[Hugo Chavez]

I wasn't asking for your opinion.  You are so sure that poverty has been decreased, you must have some explanation for the significant increase in crime.

I'm aware of the history and I am not denying it.  But going from that to your assumptions and speculations about Venezuela's present time is a conspiracy theory, unless you have solid proof.

well I guess I should have ignored your fucking question then   Some thanks i get for giving you my thoughts on it. I also posted it in a way that specifically identified it as speculation and not fact.  and you still get fucking pissy and label me a CTr over it   Yes, you were asking for an opinion.  NOBODY HAS PROOF POSITIVE OF WHY THE CRIME RATE HAS BEEN EFFECTED!!!  Even your statement on it is speculation!  You're just backing it up with what you think is an absolute which is NOT and backing it up with assertions about poverty that go solidly against the fact that poverty has been lowered--you're just making shit up. The only difference between me and you on this is that you're stating your speculation as fact and I'm stating it for what it is AND noting the TRUE history which enables the opinion.  oh and it's not ancient history so don't try to put it off like it is...

[Hugo Chavez]

I have answered you.  The opposition has proved to be powerless as they have gotten nothing they have tried to achieve.

Chavez is not attempting to lower poverty.  And you call me fool.   Chavez's many social programs, rather than being a long-term solution to poverty, are just short-term tactics to boost his popularity.

And what do you mean by "what you support"?  What do you know about what I support?  You are the one supporting a corrupt and immoral leader.

Are you freaking serious?  next you're going to tell me he hasn't made gains in educating the illiterate and uneducated?  You're going to tell me he hasn't brought them much more healthcare than they ever had before?  You're going to tell me that doing these things, educating the people at the bottom is doing nothing to address poverty in the long term?  Holy fucking dumb and dumber...   You have got to be kidding, really....

Oh and that's still not an answer.  Powerless my ass.  They've done several things to undermine him and you know it.  They didn't work because of the support Hugo has there.  The opposition would have been ran over in days and that's the only thing that's stopped them.  The only trick they haven't pulled out is just shooting him.

[loco]

well I guess I should have ignored your fucking question then   Some thanks i get for giving you my thoughts on it. I also posted it in a way that specifically identified it as speculation and not fact.  and you still get fucking pissy and label me a CTr over it   Yes, you were asking for an opinion.  NOBODY HAS PROOF POSITIVE OF WHY THE CRIME RATE HAS BEEN EFFECTED!!!  Even your statement on it is speculation!  You're just backing it up with what you think is an absolute which is NOT and backing it up with assertions about poverty that go solidly against the fact that poverty has been lowered--you're just making shit up. The only difference between me and you on this is that you're stating your speculation as fact and I'm stating it for what it is AND noting the TRUE history which enables the opinion.  oh and it's not ancient history so don't try to put it off like it is...

"the fact that poverty has been lowered"?  Ha ha ha...more like the fiction that poverty has been lowered.

Oh, now I'm making stuff up?  Well, like I said, just as you don't trust me or my sources, likewise, I do not trust you, your sources or the Venezuelan government.

You support a corrupt and immoral leader.  I on the other hand I'm neither "the opposition" nor a rich corporation with an agenda.  I'm just an average Venezuelan.

Venezuela, the richest Latin American country with the poorest people!    

[Hugo Chavez]

"the fact that poverty has been lowered"?  Ha ha ha...more like the fiction that poverty has been lowered.

Oh, now I'm making stuff up?  Well, like I said, just as you don't trust me or my sources, likewise, I do not trust you, your sources or the Venezuelan government.

You support a corrupt and immoral leader.  I on the other hand I'm neither "the opposition" nor a rich corporation with an agenda.  I'm just an average Venezuelan.

Venezuela, the richest Latin American country with the poorest people!    

If that's the way you see it, there's really no point in going on...  bummer because this was a very interesting thread for me.  I tried to be accomodating in what I posted.

Oh and if you were an Average Venezuelan, Hugo wouldn't be in power.  You're in the minority.

[Hugo Chavez]

You should watch the golinger vids above.

[loco]

Are you freaking serious?  next you're going to tell me he hasn't made gains in educating the illiterate and uneducated?  You're going to tell me he hasn't brought them much more healthcare than they ever had before?  You're going to tell me that doing these things, educating the people at the bottom is doing nothing to address poverty in the long term?  Holy fucking dumb and dumber...   You have got to be kidding, really....

Oh and that's still not an answer.  Powerless my ass.  They've done several things to undermine him and you know it.  They didn't work because of the support Hugo has there.  The opposition would have been ran over in days and that's the only thing that's stopped them.  The only trick they haven't pulled out is just shooting him.

Health care?  You wanna talk about health care now?  Okay.  Chavez built tons of tiny clinics around the poorest parts of the country to offer the poor free health care.  Aw, how sweet of Chavez.  

Where did he get the doctors to plant in this clinics?  From Cuba.  Most of these were not even real doctors but Cuban Communism indoctrinators, who would push their communist ideologies on the poor as they came in for free health care.

What happened?  Many of these Cuban "doctors", once they got to Venezuela, defected to Colombia and from there they went to the US...ha ha ha.  Most of these clinics have been abandoned.

It's all a show and you are naive enough to fall for these lies.

http://buscador.eluniversal.com/2007/02/03/pol_art_166219.shtml

http://www.2001.com.ve/registro_noticias.asp?registro=110343&sw=1

[loco]

Straw Man, you are a self proclaimed pathological liar.

Add Liar to your resume.  Not surprising seeing how you defend your beloved fake news network, CNN.

yep, I was pretending not to be aware of what you might find

Yep, you're are now a self proclaimed liar.  Good for you.  That'll help your impeccable credibility on this board.

yep, maybe next time when I say I'm not aware of something and ask you to post it you'll figure out that I'm setting you up

And you are a pervert too:

just like I do discuss how often they bone their wives (or husbands).

Everyone here already knew that you are a pervert, constantly inquiring into my whereabouts, and continuously posting photos of bloodied bodies of murdered girls.  You probably whack off to those photos on a regular basis, you sick SOB.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=511229.msg8940366#msg8940366

You denied many times being from Venezuela

I'm still waiting for you to show us the "many times" that I have "denied being from Venezuela", you pathological liar.

[Hugo Chavez]

Health care?  You wanna talk about health care now?  Okay.  Chavez built tons of tiny clinics around the poorest parts of the country to offer the poor free health care.  Aw, how sweet of Chavez.  

Where did he get the doctors to plant in this clinics?  From Cuba.  Most of these were not even real doctors but Cuban Communism indoctrinators, who would push their communist ideologies on the poor as they came in for free health care.

What happened?  Many of these Cuban "doctors", once they got to Venezuela, defected to Colombia and from there they went to the US...ha ha ha.  Most of these clinics have been abandoned.

It's all a show and you are naive enough to fall for these lies.

http://buscador.eluniversal.com/2007/02/03/pol_art_166219.shtml

http://www.2001.com.ve/registro_noticias.asp?registro=110343&sw=1

now who has the conspiracy theory?  They weren't even doctors but communist indoctrinators   hahaha And that article says 37 are there.  A lot more than that were sent there.  Is there any proof to this?  I can't find any sources on this.  You're saying they're all closed?  Really?  Can you prove that?  Sounds like more made up propaganda.  I guess the education efforts are all a sham too?  You're telling me that isn't a critical tool of addressing longterm poverty?  How do you expect them to lift themselves up when they can't even read and or have little to no education?  I guess you didn't want to talk about that part, just YOUR CT.

[Hugo Chavez]

you should watch those videos