Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: WannaBePro on November 25, 2013, 11:04:34 AM
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Canadian Bodybuilder Greg Kovaks died today of heart failure at the age of 44. "The Strongest Bodybuilder Alive" won his procard at the Canadian Nationals in 1996.
http://www.rxmuscle.com/articles/latest-news/9725-greg-kovacs-dies-at-age-44.html (http://www.rxmuscle.com/articles/latest-news/9725-greg-kovacs-dies-at-age-44.html)
RIP big guy :(
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Dan Sammit (MMA Trainer) just posted on twitter that Kovacs has passed away. Anyone heard this? Didn't find anything on Google.
https://twitter.com/GtaMMACoach
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muscletech
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damn.
Markus better take note.
how many is that this year?
Nasser? Matt Duvall? when did Art pass away? now Greg?
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damn.
Markus better take note.
how many is that this year?
Nasser? Matt Duvall? when did Art pass away? now Greg?
Yeah, Markus should try and slim down while he's got the chance.
Sad days are coming as all these guys from the 90's start dropping.
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is "heart failure" a euphemism for palumboism?
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When you take pro level stacks, and walk around at 300-400 pounds, you are going to die sooner rather then later.
R.I.P. Greg.
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(http://www.forum.paker.co.uk/files/greg_kovacs8_131.jpg)
Another impressive athlete leaves us too soon.
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Fuck sake
Not Kovacs too!
Was expected though...
Not many of the old giants left now!
Nascar left the Pitstop, Luke Wood left the scene , now Kovacs as well...
Stay Healthy Lee Priest, Shawn Ray, Levrone, Dorian, Genova, Derek Anthony, Greg Valvolino et al...
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(http://www.hugenasser.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nasser4d.jpg)
they died within months of each other
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the amount of shit they are putting in their body
they are fucking up their organs
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Big dude. All the way big dude.
PIP
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the amount of shit they are putting in their body
they are fucking up their organs
I think it has more to do with blood pressure. I mean some guys over-do orals and fuck up their kidneys, but when these guys try to stay 280+ into their mid-late 40's, that's when the heart gets taxed and eventually just gives up. Doesn't matter if its 300lbs of fat or muscle, blood has to circulate either way... The roids didn't help, of course.
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Got to give it to the man he may have accomplished what millions have wanted to at time to be the biggest bodybuilder ever. Just a matter of time before him and zyzz start making youtube videos from heaven
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I think it has more to do with blood pressure. I mean some guys over-do orals and fuck up their kidneys, but when these guys try to stay 280+ into their mid-late 40's, that's when the heart gets taxed and eventually just gives up. Doesn't matter if its 300lbs of fat or muscle, blood has to circulate either way... The roids didn't help, of course.
their hearts are enlarged
its a ticking time bomb
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Hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised, unfortunately.
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He be dead. Sad. PIP Greg.
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RIP Greg.....
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Had the pleasure of training with Greg on a couple of occasions truly a nice man. PIP Greg
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their hearts are enlarged
its a ticking time bomb
Obese people also have enlarged hearts. I'm not dismissing the drugs, I understand that all the orals, GH and vet drugs hinder health, but I believe staying huge past 40 is what does it in for these guys.
The smart thing for these retired pros to do is stay on trt, maybe even a bit more than trt (wouldn't hurt much anyway) and eat less, stay lean, stay healthy.
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Obese people also have enlarged hearts. I'm not dismissing the drugs, I understand that all the orals, GH and vet drugs hinder health, but I believe staying huge past 40 is what does it in for these guys.
The smart thing for these retired pros to do is stay on trt, maybe even a bit more than trt (wouldn't hurt much anyway) and eat less, stay lean, stay healthy.
I agree
guys like levrone look really healthy slimmed down
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maybe Greg wasn't a big believer in the health look?
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their hearts are enlarged
its a ticking time bomb
yes!!!
Steriods have been shown to thicken the left ventricle. So all the abuse from the 80's & 90's & 2000's has changed the heart's pysiology.
The heart is thus changed, making it prone to a heart attack (and it is already over-working if the guy still currently has his steroid induced, 280lb body)
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3,925,000 percent deader than other sponsored musclemen!
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yes!!!
Steriods have been shown to thicken the left ventricle. So all the abuse from the 80's & 90's & 2000's has changed the heart's pysiology.
The heart is thus changed, making it prone to a heart attack (and it is already over-working if the guy still currently has his steroid induced, 280lb body)
the man has been 360 for over 10 years, steroids or not, this is not healthy.
RIP big guy, our Canadian friendly giant.
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I agree
guys like levrone look really healthy slimmed down
But his major abuse from 1990-2003 permantly changed his heart. The left ventricle is thicker than the right. He still is at risk.
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i somehow think the damage is done already before age 40, even if they come off or down to hrt.
the rest is basicaly a formality and them being a ticking bomb.
he was lot smaller afterwards wasnt he.
now, what caused the hearth to grow?
frend of mine has enlarged kidneys, jesus, and the docs have no idea how to fix it, and it shows all over his body, weird water retention at times.
this is crazy, just today in the gym there was 1 guy with same exact face like kovacs,i get home and read this.
pip greg, you have been inspirational during my permabulker days long ago.
44is young, but its double zyzz age.
careful with the dosages,ppl, be realistic.
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PIP
"1"
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These guys are dropping like flies..
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He died for us bitches PIP Greg. He is the largest person I have ever seen in my life
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But his major abuse from 1990-2003 permantly changed his heart. The left ventricle is thicker than the right. He still is at risk.
Probably still at risk (especially if it runs in his family), but because he's slimmed down the heart doesn't have to work as hard to circulate blood than if he was 250+. Meaning he's still got a chance to live out his life into his 70's. Same can't be said about the guys that want to stay big until the very end.
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Do the current crop of PIP folks correspond to a particular drug regimen becoming popular? Something like these guys were in on the beginning of the GH era? Slin Era?
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approximately how much does bodybuilding memorabilia increase in value after death?
(for example, if you had one of Greg's shit stained towels?)
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Did he died?
(keep the meme alive!)
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But his major abuse from 1990-2003 permantly changed his heart. The left ventricle is thicker than the right. He still is at risk.
well of course steroids increase the risk but so does drinking alcohol and taking pills, but I think the biggest factor is his weight. he has been 360lb forever and as high as 415lb this is for nearly 20 years.
Here is a true story about Kovacks, I was helping with a show 10 years ago and Kovacks was there and the promotor sent someone out to get food and asked Kovacks what he wants to eat, he said 6 big macs. The man could eat. I laugh at you guys who say you can not eat X amount of calories per day, this guy could, I have seen him.
Also drinks a lot of water. friendly as they come, I also watched him train at golds Mississauga back and the day and he could move some fucken insane poundages, side laterals with the 100s with perfect form.
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Do the current crop of PIP folks correspond to a particular drug regimen becoming popular? Something like these guys were in on the beginning of the GH era? Slin Era?
thats the scary thing, most likely it was "just" big steroids and some gh.
we never get to hear deathbed confessions, the guys simply randomly die out of nowhere.
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i've got 17 grams of trenbolona and i'm not afraid to use it in honor of this gentleman
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:( rip greg
the question now is : who s next?
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Stop mentioning that coke snorting runt zzyz in the same thread as a real bodybuilder. PIP Kovacs.
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I'll bet a box of smores Nitro-Tech bars that Aaron "Mr. Intensity" Maddron delivers the eulogy.
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:( RIP
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:( rip greg
the question now is : who s next?
Odds would be on Ruhl.
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sad news but not surprised, is Duvall really dead too?
damn.
Markus better take note.
how many is that this year?
Nasser? Matt Duvall? when did Art pass away? now Greg?
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Odds would be on Ruhl.
Yeah, but Marcus has been #1 with a bullet for 10 years now. I think that he is immortal.
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There are many reasons for heart failure. Although the use of steroids might have been detrimental, they might have not been directly correlated to his death.
Lets look at the obvious facts. The man was overweight and carrying a large amount of mass, which makes it difficult for the heart.
Due to his over-eating and excess weight, he could have had:
.....a history of hypertension (elevated blood pressure) that lead to the heart having to work much harder to pump blood from the left ventricle out into his systemic circulation. This is one of the major causes for left-ventricular hypertrophy, whereby the left ventricle becomes thickened due to the added exertion needed to pump blood our of the heart. Over time, this causes the left ventricle to become weak and/or stiff which can lead to heart failure.
.....a history of elevated cholesterol that lead to atherosclerosis (clogging and hardening by way of fatty deposits) of the coronary arteries. Over time, with enough fatty buildup, you can end up with plaque that lines the arteries of the heart. If pieces of plaque break off, they can travel in the form of small clots, which can then interrupt the blow flow through the coronary arteries leading to a heart attack (myocardial infarct). The combination of these two things (high cholesterol & a history of heart attacks) can lead to a decline of the ventricles (left and right, but mostly left) pumping capacity which can result in heart failure.
These major issues aside, the guy could have had calcification or even prolapse of his heart valves, which can also over time lead to heart failure.
Drug use (illicit drugs), not necessarily steroid use, could also lead to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. This is not to say that he was using any illicit drugs, but that is another potential.
Also, to corroborate what Royalty was saying, it is true (based on a limited amount of studies) that anabolic steroid use has been linked to weakened left ventricular function.
Studies to back this up, can be found here:
Serious cardiovascular side effects of large doses of anabolic steroids in weight lifters - http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/10/1576.abstract (http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/10/1576.abstract)
Long-Term Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use Is Associated With Left Ventricular Dysfunction - http://circheartfailure.ahajournals.org/content/3/4/472 (http://circheartfailure.ahajournals.org/content/3/4/472)
Ultimately, what I think is important to realize is that no mere title, trophy, sponsorship, magazine cover or even various sets of spectating eyes are worth endangering your health in the long run. You only live once and what's important is to live life to your full potential.
May his family find peace in this time of turmoil..
"1"
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More Pro Cards given away, more BB would die.
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the heart and other organs don't differentiate between fat and muscle 370 plus pounds is a strain no matter what the ratio of the two.
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Odds would be on Ruhl.
I agree. The fact that he is still alive, amazes me. Good guy though.
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That Cell-Tech
R.I.P
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These guys are dropping like flies..
IMO, it's a cycle (no pun intended). If it is allegedly the drugs then you're going to start seeing more bodybuilders around his age dropping. They all started the HEAVY use around the same time with the insulin/gh and now I'm afraid it's catching up with them. Anyway, RIP, 44 is too young.
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That Cell-Tech
R.I.P
MuscleTech should pay for funeral services I mean , that's the least they can do. right ?
WoooSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HH
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damn.
Markus better take note.
how many is that this year?
Nasser? Matt Duvall? when did Art pass away? now Greg?
Ed van Amsterdam died in July, age 40, heart attack
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PIP
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Died heavy.
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Dam. Dam. Dam.
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PIP Big Greg!
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wow
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I've come to expect RIP threads when I log on. Sad, but no surprise anymore. Condolences to his family.
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I think being over weight has a lot to do with it most of them prowrestlers that pass are pretty heavy to they also abuse rec drugs to usually though. If you look at pie graphs and stuff its clear being 100lbs over weight is very dangerous
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How long is the list of bodybuilders and wrestlers that died in the last 15 years? Could there be a connection? ::)
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Do the current crop of PIP folks correspond to a particular drug regimen becoming popular? Something like these guys were in on the beginning of the GH era? Slin Era?
We only will know unless some of the current guys start dropping in 10-15 yrs and their drug regimens are compared to the older ones, and the autopsies are compared.
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Ate Too Heavy
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Ate, did drugs, drank, lifted "Too Heavy" for decades.
fixed. Hopefully he leaves no kid behind.
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hireditary
PIP
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hireditary
yeah haha. Thats only and solely genetics hahaha :D
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1451993_10152034514337674_1607860963_n.jpg)
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P.I.P you big bastard
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Rip... :-\
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PIP. He lived his dream.
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Some people might not agree but i think that if you are just living for the sake of living then you are not living at all, if there is something that i am passionate about and the risk is that it might take 10 years off my life i would still do it because being happy for me is more important then just living, PIP big greg.
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Rip. Wouldn't want to share a towel with him or kai though.
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Do the current crop of PIP folks correspond to a particular drug regimen becoming popular? Something like these guys were in on the beginning of the GH era? Slin Era?
Right around this time was when rHGH became available in quantity and for a reasonable price.... the 90s guys were the first to use gh & slin in any kind of quantity, leading to the 20-30lb jump in stage weight seen.
I'm guessing the extra drugs in conjunction with the extra weight they carried (carry?) around REALLY ended up taxing their heart
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44 years old.......it's just not worth it. ::)
PIP
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Yeah, Markus should try and slim down while he's got the chance.
Sad days are coming for these guys from the 90's doping
fixed it for ya
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Some people might not agree but i think that if you are just living for the sake of living then you are not living at all, if there is something that i am passionate about and the risk is that it might take 10 years off my life i would still do it because being happy for me is more important then just living, PIP big greg.
You say this at an age of, what....30? 35?
Wait till you're 60+ to make a claim like that
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Will you lunatics stop with the bodybuilding drugs are dangerous. They are not a risk to health what so ever. There are so many studies of the sub culture of bodybuilding that show no correlation. It has been studied to death with thousands of steroid using bodybuilders. It's obviously has nothing to do with it. It might be good for your to inject anabolic steroids, growth hormone, insulin, speed, anti estrogens, luteninizing hormones, diuretics, straight testosterone, oil injections, and other stuff.
In all seriousness may his family find peace. Hopefully many here take care of their health by lifting, doing cardio and eating right without drugs.
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well of course steroids increase the risk but so does drinking alcohol and taking pills, but I think the biggest factor is his weight. he has been 360lb forever and as high as 415lb this is for nearly 20 years.
Here is a true story about Kovacks, I was helping with a show 10 years ago and Kovacks was there and the promotor sent someone out to get food and asked Kovacks what he wants to eat, he said 6 big macs. The man could eat. I laugh at you guys who say you can not eat X amount of calories per day, this guy could, I have seen him.
Also drinks a lot of water. friendly as they come, I also watched him train at golds Mississauga back and the day and he could move some fucken insane poundages, side laterals with the 100s with perfect form.
These guys all have a fatty liver. Even when they get there liver numbers within normal range, the liver can still be be working overtime and be considered "fatty". This causes stress on all the other organs. And no doubt Kovacs was a Diabetic. So his kidneys were also stressed.
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RIP
PIP
TBWIP(towel butt wipe in peace)
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R.I.P. Greg. Condolences to the family.
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Will you lunatics stop with the bodybuilding drugs are dangerous. They are not a risk to health what so ever. There are so many studies of the sub culture of bodybuilding that show no correlation. It has been studied to death with thousands of steroid using bodybuilders. It's obviously has nothing to do with it. It might be good for your to inject anabolic steroids, growth hormone, insulin, speed, anti estrogens, luteninizing hormones, diuretics, straight testosterone,injections, and other stuff.
In all seriousness may his family find peace. Hopefully many here take care of their health by lifting, doing cardio and eating right without drugs.
Really? And who paid for the studies? Anything in excess is bad. And something that leads to bigger muscles, or enlarges everything (GH) maybe just as bad in moderate or small doses. It's a Pandora's box that we have opened.
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Fuck I was just looking at My autographed greg kovacs picture the other day RIP PIP :'(
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RIP. Big Man.
44 is way to young,
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Really? And who paid for the studies? Anything in excess is bad. And something that leads to bigger muscles, or enlarges everything (GH) maybe just as bad in moderate or small doses. It's a Pandora's box that we have opened.
Park park,
I actually believe oldtimer was being sarcastic with his statements.
For instance, look at the absolutes he made mention of in his quote (I underlined them):
Will you lunatics stop with the bodybuilding drugs are dangerous. They are not a risk to health what so ever. There are so many studies of the sub culture of bodybuilding that show no correlation. It has been studied to death with thousands of steroid using bodybuilders. It's obviously has nothing to do with it. It might be good for your to inject anabolic steroids, growth hormone, insulin, speed, anti estrogens, luteninizing hormones, diuretics, straight testosterone,injections, and other stuff.
Clearly, these absolutes have no foundation to them.
Then, notice how he prefaces his next statement:
In all seriousness may his family find peace. Hopefully many here take care of their health by lifting, doing cardio and eating right without drugs.
I think he was just being funny. That or he actually was being serious, in which case I will proceed to open mouth and insert foot.
"1"
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They will bring him back the next season, the show sucks anyway.
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Oh crap, I thought this was the Brian Griffin thread. My bad.
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RIP Greg Kovacs, arguably the strongest bodybuilder ever.
Imagine how big the coffin's going to be :-\
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Park park,
I actually believe oldtimer was being sarcastic with his statements.
For instance, look at the absolutes he made mention of in his quote (I underlined them):
Clearly, these absolutes have no foundation to them.
Then, notice how he prefaces his next statement:
I think he was just being funny. That or he actually was being serious, in which case I will proceed to open mouth and insert foot.
"1"
Of course he was, look at the last two words of his post.
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RIP big guy. :'(
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pip
http://www.rxmuscle.com/articles/latest-news/9725-greg-kovacs-dies-at-age-44.html
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Really?
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Already a sticky at the top...
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He did not play basketball.
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Already a sticky at the top...
yeah, just noticed...
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Already a sticky at the top...
This
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Chris-a is a man with his ear to the ground, and his cock in the glory hole
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Time to draw a new body weight/hight chart for bodybuilders other wise more will die.IFBB as most prominent body building organization should collect the data of all bodybuilder,s died in last 10 years before reaching 50.just to realize the scale of the problem.here is the h/w chart
5.7 inch and below.......210lb
5.8 to 5.10...235lb
5.9 to 6.0....255lb
6.1 and above 270lb
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PIP...
and we make fun of them when they retire and slim down (Paul Dillet) ::)
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RIP
Walking around that size is not healthy. Ruhl looks ill
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PIP
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Stop mentioning that coke snorting runt zzyz in the same thread as a real bodybuilder. PIP Kovacs.
x2 no tiny tits allowed in honor of big Greg
PIP
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:-\
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Time to draw a new body weight/hight chart for bodybuilders other wise more will die.IFBB as most prominent body building organization should collect the data of all bodybuilder,s died in last 10 years before reaching 50.just to realize the scale of the problem.here is the h/w chart
5.7 inch and below.......210lb
5.8 to 5.10...235lb
5.9 to 6.0....255lb
6.1 and above 270lb
Subtract another 15-20 from there and it's golden.
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Wow... terrible news.
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These guys all have a fatty liver. Even when they get there liver numbers within normal range, the liver can still be be working overtime and be considered "fatty". This causes stress on all the other organs. And no doubt Kovacs was a Diabetic. So his kidneys were also stressed.
i see you have read properly into the issue.
it starts with the liver and then hell breaks loose.
clogged arteries, inflamations everywhere etc.
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RIP, biggest dude I ever met.
Thanks for the memories. I will tell some stories on the looking back thread.
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Subtract another 15-20 from there and it's golden.
I agree Bodybuilding being somewhat healthy stopped with haney, 6 feet 242lbs
Im a fan of Yates but no doubt he brought a different look to the sport and more than likely a different approach. Was the first real offseason 300lb guy thats not healthy.
Haney Demay Christian all those guys were 225 to 240 and all were 6 foot tall and all are still alive today and look healthy.
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rest in peace big guy
E
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Rest in Peace
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was he saved?
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Just heard that he passed away...anyone know more about this???
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http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=507507.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=507507.0) ::)Sticky at top^^
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Just heard that he passed away...anyone know more about this???
Got Vissys cum in your eyes again
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Fuck all of you...didn't see the thread
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Got to give it to the man he may have accomplished what millions thousands have wanted to at time to be the biggest bodybuilder ever. Just a matter of time before him and zyzz start making youtube videos from heaven
Corrected
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O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
- 1 Corinthians 15:55
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Most muscular man in history in my opinion...The stories told about him are legend...This is a sad day for bodybuilding
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Not surprised but pip nonetheless big guy!
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RIP :-\
I used to drink cell tech cause of him
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RIP
can't believe :-\
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Really? And who paid for the studies? Anything in excess is bad. And something that leads to bigger muscles, or enlarges everything (GH) maybe just as bad in moderate or small doses. It's a Pandora's box that we have opened.
Do I really have to say that was sarcasm? Of course no one is studying the health problems of the sub culture of bodybuilders on drugs.
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RIP, biggest dude I ever met.
Thanks for the memories. I will tell some stories on the looking back thread.
Looks a little like Groink facially
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He came to my city when I was still a teen and gave a seminar with Craig Titus. He wasn't as talkative as Craig but seemed like a genuinely nice guy. Insanely huge as well. Hope his family and loved ones are able to stay strong and cope.
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Greg was recently in the hospital for heart surgery and was starting to clean up his system but I guess he waited till it was to late. Bodybuilding is all fucked up and it will continue to be fucked up...
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Got Vissys cum in your eyes again
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fuck me running. what an assault on the senses
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Greg was recently in the hospital for heart surgery and was starting to clean up his system but I guess he waited till it was to late. Bodybuilding is all fucked up and it will continue to be fucked up and continue to take its toll on hundreds/thousands..
Any more information,
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Markus ruhl is the Keith Richards of bodybuilding, he ain't going no where.
PIP Greg
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Mudshark
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Obviously this is sad, but for a man who was over 360lbs for 20 straight years, a death like this can't be too much of a wake up call. Now if a current Olympia competitor died, then that would be a real eye opener.
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Obviously this is sad, but for a man who was over 360lbs for 20 straight years, a death like this can't be too much of a wake up call. Now if a current Olympia competitor died, then that would be a real eye opener.
Not Olympia competitor, but Daniele Seccarecci died something like 4 days after the Nordic Pro.
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Mudshark
;D
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Any more information,
I don't know much more then that he was aware of his condition was in the hospital for it and was trying to get things in order-Greg was a good guy and may he rest in peace...
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Some people might not agree but i think that if you are just living for the sake of living then you are not living at all, if there is something that i am passionate about and the risk is that it might take 10 years off my life i would still do it because being happy for me is more important then just living, PIP big greg.
LOl I admire your passion but give it another 5 or 6 years, a kid or two, people who love you and rely on you. Body dismorphia will take the back seat. Nasser, Gregg and many others who passed never had kids and shitty relationships. No coincidence.
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Most muscular man in history in my opinion...The stories told about him are legend...This is a sad day for bodybuilding
I agree its sadder then usually I think because at some point ever kid/guy that picks up a weight say I'm going to be the biggest mother fucker ever and he did it almost kinda proud of him in a way.
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I don't know much more then that he was aware of his condition was in the hospital for it and was trying to get things in order-Greg was a good guy and may he rest in peace...
Thanks Bro, Just a shame that guys like him and Nasser seemed to get diagnosed so late in their condition they seem to go so quick once diagnosed.
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Thanks Bro, Just a shame that guys like him and Nasser seemed to get diagnosed so late in their condition they seem to go so quick once diagnosed.
I agree-and I see a lot of people on this site talking shit--just makes me sick..
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I'm so sad to hear this news. Greg was truly a gentle giant, one of the good guys.
Let's show strength and solidarity for a great iron brother by allowing an appropriate length of time for respectful remembrance before moving on to speculation about cause.
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One kovacs story that always stuck out in my mind was him being so strong he had to have his wife and a friends go to the gym with him because he couldn't load and unload all the 45lbs plates he used so many. Imagine every movement you doing having to shuffle around between 12-40 45lb plates
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Yeah, Markus should try and slim down while he's got the chance.
Sad days are coming as all these guys from the 90's start dropping.
How exactly you slim down your heart, which has grown to be more than twice larger than its normal size by using GH?
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Yeah, Markus should try and slim down while he's got the chance.
Sad days are coming as all these guys from the 90's start dropping.
markus is more of early to mid 2000's guy
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How exactly you slim down your heart, which has grown to be more than twice larger than its normal size by using GH?
It shrinks upon cessation of the drugs. Maybe not to normal size, but the LVH is at least somewhat reversible
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well of course steroids increase the risk but so does drinking alcohol and taking pills, but I think the biggest factor is his weight. he has been 360lb forever and as high as 415lb this is for nearly 20 years.
Here is a true story about Kovacks, I was helping with a show 10 years ago and Kovacks was there and the promotor sent someone out to get food and asked Kovacks what he wants to eat, he said 6 big macs. The man could eat. I laugh at you guys who say you can not eat X amount of calories per day, this guy could, I have seen him.
Also drinks a lot of water. friendly as they come, I also watched him train at golds Mississauga back and the day and he could move some fucken insane poundages, side laterals with the 100s with perfect form.
What a load of bullshit. You can try to comfort yourself with lies like that, but pills, drinking and weight doesn't really make your heart grow like GH does. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11207626 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11207626)
If you look around, old bodybuilders are all from the era before modern drugs and GH guts..
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RIP Greg Kovacs, arguably the strongest bodybuilder ever.
Imagine how big the coffin's going to be :-\
It's not about when you die, it's about how many motherfuckers it takes to carry the casket.
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Markus ruhl is the Keith Richards of bodybuilding, he ain't going no where.
PIP Greg
How about Dave Palumbo, the founding father of "Palumboism"? How he must feel these days, while these guys go down around him..he is 45, will he ever be 46? ;D
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It shrinks upon cessation of the drugs. Maybe not to normal size, but the LVH is at least somewhat reversible
It is a muscle, so it shrinks thinner, not much smaller from it's size. It will be just about as large as it has grown, but walls will be thinner, and that's how it can't be even as efficient as it was. When normal heart is size of your fist, these guys heart is closer to size of their head. There is some drugs which help to reverse that growth, it was some cancer drug which has this effect, but it has it's prize..
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It is a muscle, so it shrinks thinner, not much smaller from it's size. It will be just about as large as it has grown, but walls will be thinner, and that's how it can't be even as efficient as it was. When normal heart is size of your fist, these guys heart is closer to size of their head. There is some drugs which help to reverse that growth, it was some cancer drug which has this effect, but it has it's prize..
Now you're just trolling, nobody's heart is close to the size of their head.
Is aas/gh abuse unhealthy? Yes
Is some of the damage reversible? Yes, some or even most of it
Will IFBB pros live shortened lives? Sure
-
All of superheavy guys must watch out for their health.
-
(http://malemuscle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Greg-Kovacs-Arnold-Classic-D184.jpg)
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4695/08yw4ra7.jpg)
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Let's show strength and solidarity for a great iron brother by allowing an appropriate length of time for respectful remembrance before moving on to speculation about cause.
Yeah, let's do what everybody around our iron brother did and pretend he was immortal could only have died from a freak, unexpected and undetected genetic defect he had from birth ::)
Let's respect our iron brothers and ignore the truth like they did, right into the grave. Greeeat.
All of these guys died, ignoring medical advice for years. Ignoring the truth.
That's a ridiculous opinion, Tre. Politically correct nonsense.
Discuss away. Markus is next. I wish there was a way to petition Markus to lose some weight.
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I remember reading about him in a flex magazine back in 1995. He was the next big thing.
He deserved better luck but he brought that to himself.
RIP.
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what the fuck?....this is Crazy....I still can never get used to former bodybuilders dying at such young age......
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2008
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what the fuck?....this is Crazy....I still can never get used to former bodybuilders dying at such young age......
Why not? To me its a miracle more are not dropping like flies.
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damn.
Markus better take note.
how many is that this year?
Nasser? Matt Duvall? when did Art pass away? now Greg?
jesus christ......I wasn't aware Matt Duvall died too.....what the fuck?....and the IFBB never take notes of these deadly Trends?
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Died heavy.
"Bury me massive"
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Why not? To me its a miracle more are not dropping like flies.
I'm sure many delusional people in the industry would say that these recent deaths are not bodybuilding related
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"...in a big fucking box..."
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(http://malemuscle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Greg-Kovacs-Arnold-Classic-D184.jpg)
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4695/08yw4ra7.jpg)
Dude, show some respect. The man died. There are way better pics you can post of him before Palumboism set it.
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A lot of posters obviously not dedicated to A) getting 18" arms and B) getting the girls.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/4cca013289caa7b92bca8a75d407579e.jpg)
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What a load of bullshit. You can try to comfort yourself with lies like that, but pills, drinking and weight doesn't really make your heart grow like GH does. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11207626 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11207626)
If you look around, old bodybuilders are all from the era before modern drugs and GH guts..
shut the fuck up asshole, don`t derail the thread, who gives a fuck.
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Happier, lighter, times -
.
.
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any Getbiggers going to the funeral besides Tito24?
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Every bodybuilder that's been on the cover of EA sports Madden Bodybuilding seems to die...The curse is strong...
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2008
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=507507.0;attach=543529)
This is a horrible pic of KarVac. His arm looks smaller than the others and it appears to be partially obscured by his 60" waist.
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2008
Dude on the left has an insane physique!!
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Dude on the left has an insane physique!!
LOU JOSEPH ...
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From june this year:
(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/389313_10151469567117503_359514247_n.jpg)
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This is a horrible pic of KarVac. His arm looks smaller than the others and it appears to be partially obscured by his 60" waist.
something not quite right with guy on left's shoulder ::) ::) :o :o :o
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something not quite right with guy on left's shoulder ::) ::) :o :o :o
that`s Fouad
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PIP Greg
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We don't agree on shit, but goddamn this is good.
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I was fortunate enough to be in my prime during the late 90's and I vividly remember following the bodybuild. Kovacs was a freak for sure. Never could figure out why he didn't go the powerlifting route instead of the bodybuild. Dude pushed some serious weights around. Had he focused entirely on powerlifting, he would have been a champion. He never looked good as a bodybuild. I mean no disrespect it is just a fact, his physique was better suited to powerlifting. There was nothing symmetrical or freakish about his physique, he was one strong guy though.
PIP
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Induced growth of cardiomyocyctes is irreversible my friend.....as seen in cases of hypertrophy, where the ventricle is forced to increase contractility in order to provide more oxygenated blood due to higher demand.... Follow physics...power = length x tension ... Something is going to have to give ...it was just a matter of time.. The human body can only compensate to a certain futile degree..... All the abusive factors contributed to his accelerated demise... And yes..numerous past bodybuilders of the 70s did indeed undergo bypass surgery of some form- although not the hypertrophic acceleration seen in generation GH coupled w other anabolic enhancements...
-
Induced growth of cardiomyocyctes is irreversible my friend.....as seen in cases of hypertrophy, where the ventricle is forced to increase contractility in order to provide more oxygenated blood due to higher demand.... Follow physics...power = length x tension ... Something is going to have to give ...it was just a matter of time.. The human body can only compensate to a certain futile degree..... All the abusive factors contributed to his accelerated demise... And yes..numerous past bodybuilders of the 70s did indeed undergo bypass surgery of some form- although not the hypertrophic acceleration seen in generation GH coupled w other anabolic enhancements...
D-B, are you saying there's not free lunch in nature?
-
D-B, are you saying there's not free lunch in nature?
I am sure the majority of these bodybuilders were given their fair share of warning signs by their own doctors..yet took that risk.... This lifestyle is an obsessive subculture, where many believe that they are the anomaly and won't succumb to human physiology... The more realistic bodybuilders ended their careers when they were warned.... I do not doubt that is why you do not see a comeback a la Shawn ray..even though I know he still has the drive to win it all... But am damn sure he now has a precondition like many who were a part of his era..where continuing competitive bodybuilding will have to shorten his lifespan.... Acceptance is a tough pill to swallow.... Nature stopped giving free lunches as soon as they were told..enough is enough...
-
I am sure the majority of these bodybuilders were given their fair share of warning signs by their own doctors..yet took that risk.... This lifestyle is an obsessive subculture, where many believe that they are the anomaly and won't succumb to human physiology... The more realistic bodybuilders ended their careers when they were warned.... I do not doubt that is why you do not see a comeback a la Shawn ray..even though I know he still has the drive to win it all... But am damn sure he now has a precondition like many who were a part of his era..where continuing competitive bodybuilding will have to shorten his lifespan.... Acceptance is a tough pill to swallow.... Nature stopped giving free lunches as soon as they were told..enough is enough...
Awesome post. Props to the ones who took the hints. Weird subculture...
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D-B, are you saying there's not free lunch in nature?
I see you're a Tim Ferriss fan
God speed chief. 8)
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I see you're a Tim Ferriss fan
God speed chief. 8)
Yup.. and Dr Drew as well 8)
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jesus christ......I wasn't aware Matt Duvall died too.....what the fuck?....and the IFBB never take notes of these deadly Trends?
Why should they? The IFBB is about entertainment, for which they need a constant supply of new freaks. As long as there are enough new retards wanting to join that club, they will continue with their freaks shows.
Retards, because after all taxes and expenses very few earn any money, and many have to become male prostitutes in order to finance their absurd steroid/gh and recreational drug habits. Combine that with a seriously reduced life expectancy, and I think "retard" is the right word for such dudes.
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Why should they? The IFBB is about entertainment, for which they need a constant supply of new freaks. As long as there are enough new retards wanting to join that club, they will continue with their freaks shows.
Retards, because after all taxes and expenses very few earn any money, and many have to become male prostitutes in order to finance their absurd steroid/gh and recreational drug habits. Combine that with a seriously reduced life expectancy, and I think "retard" is the right word for such dudes.
Wow, maybe the IFBB's new slogan should say: come and join us at your own risk...
-
.
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Know when to quit!
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Know when to quit!
LOL....he couldn't afford the offcycle package
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Know when to quit!
It's stupid to start!
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LOl I admire your passion but give it another 5 or 6 years, a kid or two, people who love you and rely on you. Body dismorphia will take the back seat. Nasser, Gregg and many others who passed never had kids and shitty relationships. No coincidence.
I cant believe you just made an intelligent comment.
Gives me hope in mankind.
Yet at the very same time you re implying you were one of nasser's "shitty" relationship. Ill take it as another great step toward the truth.
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It's stupid to start!
This.
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From june this year:
(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/389313_10151469567117503_359514247_n.jpg)
check sweaty armpits, check permanently deformed gh face and check monster forearm
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Induced growth of cardiomyocyctes is irreversible my friend.....as seen in cases of hypertrophy, where the ventricle is forced to increase contractility in order to provide more oxygenated blood due to higher demand.... Follow physics...power = length x tension ... Something is going to have to give ...it was just a matter of time.. The human body can only compensate to a certain futile degree..... All the abusive factors contributed to his accelerated demise... And yes..numerous past bodybuilders of the 70s did indeed undergo bypass surgery of some form- although not the hypertrophic acceleration seen in generation GH coupled w other anabolic enhancements...
hey danny, is the ventricle only increased if the hearth has grown in size, is this an exclusive feature or can it be increased while the heart is still normal sized?
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hey danny, is the ventricle only increased if the hearth has grown in size, is this an exclusive feature or can it be increased while the heart is still normal sized?
LOL @juicer worries. You're too late chief ;D
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Danny Boy dropping some serious knowledge up in this bitch!!
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LOL @juicer worries. You're too late chief ;D
;D
;D ;D
-
;D
;D ;D
Stop before it's too late!
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LOL @juicer worries. You're too late chief ;D
lmao
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Stop before it's too late!
you know, lool, same can be said for you, youre slightly overweight too, so were on the same boat.
;D
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we are together in this alex what we gonna do :D
lets wait for danny and see what he says.
phew good thing i dont smoke that much ciggs ;D
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Induced growth of cardiomyocyctes is irreversible my friend.....as seen in cases of hypertrophy, where the ventricle is forced to increase contractility in order to provide more oxygenated blood due to higher demand.... Follow physics...power = length x tension ... Something is going to have to give ...it was just a matter of time.. The human body can only compensate to a certain futile degree..... All the abusive factors contributed to his accelerated demise... And yes..numerous past bodybuilders of the 70s did indeed undergo bypass surgery of some form- although not the hypertrophic acceleration seen in generation GH coupled w other anabolic enhancements...
^
Thanks Danny
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Know when to quit!
to be fair he was 'off' aka on probably just a gram a week in the October picture. And suffering health issues
If he hadn't done all that midsection damage and came in drier he'd still be shitting on 'natural pros' (who use more than him) in the After pic.
MM is a good chap, he urges obsessed mid-level Venice go-nowhere bbers to drop this stupid lifestyle and expand their lives.
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LOL @juicer worries. You're too late chief ;D
On a case by case basis... hypertrophy of the left ventricle is usually what is seen within these types of patients... where the left ventricle happens to be the corresponding chamber that is ejecting the body's overall systemic blood flow to all your tissues, muscles, organs, etc..... In order to overcome a higher pressure gradient now seen in the aorta... this left ventricle has to find new avenues in order to compensate and re-establish a new set medium of adequate blood flow and stroke volume that will supply the rest of the body... Further, in order to provide more "force" aka "higher contractility" - more cardiomyocytes need to develop OR hypertrophy may also be seen . Here, the cardiac muscle eventually stiffens and loses its capability to contract adequately... BIGGER heart -> demands greater supply of 02 via the coronary arteries(which directly supply the heart) quick cardiovascular 101 -> heart is made up of 4 chambers composed of 2 atriums and 2 ventricles.. it is possible for only one ventricle to hypertrophy... but this always leads to backed up problems of pressure... IE/ increased hydrostatic pressure backed into the lung's capillaries.... leading to pulmonary edema.. aka another quick way to die so to answer your question... yes the all other chambers can be of normal size w/ the left ventricle exclusively increasing in muscularity/size =bad bad bad
-
Know when to quit!
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=507507.0;attach=543661;image)
Only the gut/waist remained the same...
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Danny whats your opinion on TRT, would you consider using it with your knowledge of the cardiovascular system, and what theory do you have with the low test marketing claim that low testosterone is also bad for the heart.
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Why should they? The IFBB is about entertainment, for which they need a constant supply of new freaks. As long as there are enough new retards wanting to join that club, they will continue with their freaks shows.
Retards, because after all taxes and expenses very few earn any money, and many have to become male prostitutes in order to finance their absurd steroid/gh and recreational drug habits. Combine that with a seriously reduced life expectancy, and I think "retard" is the right word for such dudes.
They are just living the dream... ::)
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Danny whats your opinion on TRT, would you consider using it with your knowledge of the cardiovascular system, and what theory do you have with the low test marketing claim that low testosterone is also bad for the heart.
I'm not one to the devalue the merit of TRT therapy...but one has to also look into the individual's past and map out how he had come to such low test levels in the first place.... Yes, it will happen naturally ..but for many within this industry - most have miscalculated their dependence on these drugs n for how long they had shut down their own body's natural production. After recognizing and acknowledging their past regimen, other factors should be monitored prior to treatment as opposed to an individual who has decreased test levels naturally. For example, how has the unnatural athlete's current body adapted to years of abuse? Blood work to check cholesterol? These are important factors that come into question. I believe TRT should be monitored by one's physician heavily. Like any drug that works..there is such thing as "too much of a good thing"... That's part of the addictive personality to which many of us lifters are victim to. Regulated. #s should be administered on an individual basis... In depth medical history should always be examined.
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Same forearm as Cutler and Branch.
(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/389313_10151469567117503_359514247_n.jpg)
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Same forearm as Cutler and Branch.
(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/389313_10151469567117503_359514247_n.jpg)
Both are 6 ft 5?
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Both are 6 ft 5?
Greg looks about half an inch or an inch taller. I've seen Kip at my gym a couple of times, the guy is big as a house! Tall, wide and insane arms. The problem is when he's on stage, because he's so tall, he looks lanky, but up close he's anything but.
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Greg looks about half an inch or an inch taller. I've seen Kip at my gym a couple of times, the guy is big as a house! Tall, wide and insane arms. The problem is when he's on stage, because he's so tall, he looks lanky, but up close he's anything but.
That's Greg's hair and he's wearing shoes. Kip might be barefoot, and he is billed as 6 ft 2. (The whole Kovacs is 6 ft 5 was marketing bs I think, Same as his weight)
"Kip" means chicken in Dutch btw ;D
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That's Greg's hair and he's wearing shoes. Kip might be barefoot, and he is billed as 6 ft 2. (The whole Kovacs is 6 ft 5 was marketing bs I think, Same as his weight)
"Kip" means chicken in Dutch btw ;D
HAHA that's funny, my dad calls all bodybuilders "chickens" cause they're all round and dark like rotisserie chickens.
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That's Greg's hair and he's wearing shoes. Kip might be barefoot, and he is billed as 6 ft 2. (The whole Kovacs is 6 ft 5 was marketing bs I think, Same as his weight)
"Kip" means chicken in Dutch btw ;D
Greg was a bonafide 365ish when myself and Paul from MuslceTech saw his conditioning as he was prepping for, the Canadian Nationals, I think? And he was already considerably down in weight because of the pre-contest regime. But no, he was not much more than perhaps 6'2 in height.
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Greg looks about half an inch or an inch taller. I've seen Kip at my gym a couple of times, the guy is big as a house! Tall, wide and insane arms. The problem is when he's on stage, because he's so tall, he looks lanky, but up close he's anything but.
Kovacks is 6 foot 2, the 6 foot 5 thing is bogus. Kip is a freak, he won the overalls at the Ontario's, the problems as you say is lanky but the upper body has filled out tremendously, his problem will be quad sweep. he will be like another joel stubbs
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How does this happen?
-
How does this happen?
bone growth in the wrong places, organ growth, atrophied bodyparts, nerve damage in the limbs stunts growth, through time with the heavy use of gh and slin combined with heavy lifting and heavy eating.
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bone growth in the wrong places, organ growth, atrophied bodyparts, nerve damage in the limbs stunts growth, through time with the heavy use of gh and slin combined with heavy lifting and heavy eating.
To bad, he looked good in his early career.
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To bad, he looked good in his early career.
indeed, even had decent back.
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Obese people also have enlarged hearts. I'm not dismissing the drugs, I understand that all the orals, GH and vet drugs hinder health, but I believe staying huge past 40 is what does it in for these guys.
The smart thing for these retired pros to do is stay on trt, maybe even a bit more than trt (wouldn't hurt much anyway) and eat less, stay lean, stay healthy.
FACT = Steroids irreversibly alter the structure of the heart increasing the chances of a fatal cardiac event.
Why bodybuilders cant accept this, instead of looking for other answers. I guess they cant accept the fact that they have fucked themselves up....
-
There are many reasons for heart failure. Although the use of steroids might have been detrimental, they might have not been directly correlated to his death.
Lets look at the obvious facts. The man was overweight and carrying a large amount of mass, which makes it difficult for the heart.
Due to his over-eating and excess weight, he could have had:
.....a history of hypertension (elevated blood pressure) that lead to the heart having to work much harder to pump blood from the left ventricle out into his systemic circulation. This is one of the major causes for left-ventricular hypertrophy, whereby the left ventricle becomes thickened due to the added exertion needed to pump blood our of the heart. Over time, this causes the left ventricle to become weak and/or stiff which can lead to heart failure.
.....a history of elevated cholesterol that lead to atherosclerosis (clogging and hardening by way of fatty deposits) of the coronary arteries. Over time, with enough fatty buildup, you can end up with plaque that lines the arteries of the heart. If pieces of plaque break off, they can travel in the form of small clots, which can then interrupt the blow flow through the coronary arteries leading to a heart attack (myocardial infarct). The combination of these two things (high cholesterol & a history of heart attacks) can lead to a decline of the ventricles (left and right, but mostly left) pumping capacity which can result in heart failure.
These major issues aside, the guy could have had calcification or even prolapse of his heart valves, which can also over time lead to heart failure.
Drug use (illicit drugs), not necessarily steroid use, could also lead to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. This is not to say that he was using any illicit drugs, but that is another potential.
Also, to corroborate what Royalty was saying, it is true (based on a limited amount of studies) that anabolic steroid use has been linked to weakened left ventricular function.
Studies to back this up, can be found here:
Serious cardiovascular side effects of large doses of anabolic steroids in weight lifters - http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/10/1576.abstract (http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/10/1576.abstract)
Long-Term Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use Is Associated With Left Ventricular Dysfunction - http://circheartfailure.ahajournals.org/content/3/4/472 (http://circheartfailure.ahajournals.org/content/3/4/472)
Ultimately, what I think is important to realize is that no mere title, trophy, sponsorship, magazine cover or even various sets of spectating eyes are worth endangering your health in the long run. You only live once and what's important is to live life to your full potential.
May his family find peace in this time of turmoil..
"1"
Haha, classic denialist mentality stuff....
Steroids lead to permanent myocardial fibrosis and micro scarring leading to reduced efficiency, disturbed electrical conductivity and the leading cause of heart failure over any of the other issues that have have been highlighted above.
-
Induced growth of cardiomyocyctes is irreversible my friend.....as seen in cases of hypertrophy, where the ventricle is forced to increase contractility in order to provide more oxygenated blood due to higher demand.... Follow physics...power = length x tension ... Something is going to have to give ...it was just a matter of time.. The human body can only compensate to a certain futile degree..... All the abusive factors contributed to his accelerated demise... And yes..numerous past bodybuilders of the 70s did indeed undergo bypass surgery of some form- although not the hypertrophic acceleration seen in generation GH coupled w other anabolic enhancements...
Christ!! Someone who knows what they are talking about at last!!
-
On a case by case basis... hypertrophy of the left ventricle is usually what is seen within these types of patients... where the left ventricle happens to be the corresponding chamber that is ejecting the body's overall systemic blood flow to all your tissues, muscles, organs, etc..... In order to overcome a higher pressure gradient now seen in the aorta... this left ventricle has to find new avenues in order to compensate and re-establish a new set medium of adequate blood flow and stroke volume that will supply the rest of the body... Further, in order to provide more "force" aka "higher contractility" - more cardiomyocytes need to develop OR hypertrophy may also be seen . Here, the cardiac muscle eventually stiffens and loses its capability to contract adequately... BIGGER heart -> demands greater supply of 02 via the coronary arteries(which directly supply the heart) quick cardiovascular 101 -> heart is made up of 4 chambers composed of 2 atriums and 2 ventricles.. it is possible for only one ventricle to hypertrophy... but this always leads to backed up problems of pressure... IE/ increased hydrostatic pressure backed into the lung's capillaries.... leading to pulmonary edema.. aka another quick way to die so to answer your question... yes the all other chambers can be of normal size w/ the left ventricle exclusively increasing in muscularity/size =bad bad bad
Also due to the compromised conductivity of cardiac tissue from steroid use, the chances of recovery of normal heartbeat during myocardial infarctions is reduced also.
-
D-B, are you saying there's not free lunch in nature?
Correct
-
I am sure the majority of these bodybuilders were given their fair share of warning signs by their own doctors..yet took that risk.... This lifestyle is an obsessive subculture, where many believe that they are the anomaly and won't succumb to human physiology... The more realistic bodybuilders ended their careers when they were warned.... I do not doubt that is why you do not see a comeback a la Shawn ray..even though I know he still has the drive to win it all... But am damn sure he now has a precondition like many who were a part of his era..where continuing competitive bodybuilding will have to shorten his lifespan.... Acceptance is a tough pill to swallow.... Nature stopped giving free lunches as soon as they were told..enough is enough...
Agreed. Combination of superior natural genetics, better response to drugs, "moderate use" compared to other less gifted pros, and his success based on presenting an aesthetic physique vs being a mass monster, are for sure all factors why he will be around a lot longer than others.
-
On a case by case basis... hypertrophy of the left ventricle is usually what is seen within these types of patients... where the left ventricle happens to be the corresponding chamber that is ejecting the body's overall systemic blood flow to all your tissues, muscles, organs, etc..... In order to overcome a higher pressure gradient now seen in the aorta... this left ventricle has to find new avenues in order to compensate and re-establish a new set medium of adequate blood flow and stroke volume that will supply the rest of the body... Further, in order to provide more "force" aka "higher contractility" - more cardiomyocytes need to develop OR hypertrophy may also be seen . Here, the cardiac muscle eventually stiffens and loses its capability to contract adequately... BIGGER heart -> demands greater supply of 02 via the coronary arteries(which directly supply the heart) quick cardiovascular 101 -> heart is made up of 4 chambers composed of 2 atriums and 2 ventricles.. it is possible for only one ventricle to hypertrophy... but this always leads to backed up problems of pressure... IE/ increased hydrostatic pressure backed into the lung's capillaries.... leading to pulmonary edema.. aka another quick way to die so to answer your question... yes the all other chambers can be of normal size w/ the left ventricle exclusively increasing in muscularity/size =bad bad bad
thnaks for this reply man.
another question, how can it be checked whether the ventricle has grown?will x ray be good enough?
if heart size is normal and bloodpressure too, will this mean everythings ok?
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thnaks for this reply man.
another question, how can it be checked whether the ventricle has grown?will x ray be good enough?
if heart size is normal and bloodpressure too, will this mean everythings ok?
You better just stop while you can. Don`t try every avenue to justify your usage.
-
Haha, classic denialist mentality stuff....
Steroids lead to permanent myocardial fibrosis and micro scarring leading to reduced efficiency, disturbed electrical conductivity and the leading cause of heart failure over any of the other issues that have have been highlighted above.
Once one of us performs his actual biopsy, that's when we will know how prominent the myocardial fibrosis was. Unfortunately, since none of us will get to see what his heart looks like, it's a mute point.
As for now, since no one on this forum will have access to his medical records, all we can do is speculate.
The easiest thing to do is to directly attribute and/or assume that his heart failure was caused due to his steroid use, but without his medical records, past blood work (to see whether he suffered from hyperlipidemia, hypertension, hypo/hyper-thyroidism, diabetes, kidney failure and to even possibly gauge what his BNP was), chest x-ray films, an echocardiogram, ekg, prior stress test results and even a prior CT or MRI scan of his heart, we only have speculation at best. If we had many of these elements, we can then get a better idea of what the full cardiac story was, but going only by pictures off the internet and rumors, we can't possibly assume anything.
To be clear, I'm not saying that steroids could have not played a role, but to directly attribute steroid use to his death is speculation at best.
Lets allow for the man to rest in peace.
"1"
-
How does this happen?
its weird, the side abs bigger than the lats.
what organs are under the side abs?
is it even the rgans or are the side abs just too big?
as for trt, any doc will first say its no good.
but its the "safest" way to do some juice.
but even trt on just not good enough diet, well, you check bloodwork and see what sup.
-
I'm not one to the devalue the merit of TRT therapy...but one has to also look into the individual's past and map out how he had come to such low test levels in the first place.... Yes, it will happen naturally ..but for many within this industry - most have miscalculated their dependence on these drugs n for how long they had shut down their own body's natural production. After recognizing and acknowledging their past regimen, other factors should be monitored prior to treatment as opposed to an individual who has decreased test levels naturally. For example, how has the unnatural athlete's current body adapted to years of abuse? Blood work to check cholesterol? These are important factors that come into question. I believe TRT should be monitored by one's physician heavily. Like any drug that works..there is such thing as "too much of a good thing"... That's part of the addictive personality to which many of us lifters are victim to. Regulated. #s should be administered on an individual basis... In depth medical history should always be examined.
Thanks Danny really appreciate the advice,
-
danny, whats worse, long term moderate usage or short term abuse?
going tomorow to have stuff checked by doctor.
one more thing, from feeling pectoral angina till lights out, how much time is left?
-
thnaks for this reply man.
another question, how can it be checked whether the ventricle has grown?will x ray be good enough?
if heart size is normal and bloodpressure too, will this mean everythings ok?
Cardiogram is required i believe, best test you can do is the CT test that will test for calcium deposits in the heart muscle, people can never have an issue with cholesterol or blood pressure but still have deposits at a younger age than non users. Im sure Danny or Lord will be able to elaborate more,
-
danny, whats worse, long term moderate usage or short term abuse?
going tomorow to have stuff checked by doctor.
one more thing, from feeling pectoral angina till lights out, how much time is left?
Good question, but I would think long term moderate abuse by a landslide.
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Cardiogram is required i believe, best test you can do is the CT test that will test for calcium deposits in the heart muscle, people can never have an issue with cholesterol or blood pressure but still have deposits at a younger age than non users. Im sure Danny or Lord will be able to elaborate more,
is cardiogramme "ekg" i dont know the english term, is it that where they put ,you know, kinda some cables to your feet and hands?
yah cholesterol on good diet and BP have never been out of whack.
but there sure is some concerning stuff to read here.fuck.
of course,im 100% natural and asking merely for educational purposes, yall filthy juicers surely have similiar questions :D
Good question, but I would think long term moderate abuse by a landslide.
you know, if one even slightly think about what non estrogen convertibles or anti estrogens can and will do to cholesterol, and how "good" cheat meals are on gear, uuuuhh.and this is just superficial, blatant obvious things, the docs know much more details.
i can see why some docs would look at steroid users in similiar way to lunatic with death wish.
me, from feeling, the sides like water retention and bloodpresure, those alone are clear signs that really anything above 250weekly is already asking for it.
not even to mention gh and slin on top of that, and the metabolism increasing fatburners which sometimes make the heart beat like a machinegun.
and last but not least ,diuretics, theyre not very good for the heart.ppl always say kidneys, but seldom you see the heart mentioned.
this left ventricle growth sounds very very very bad.
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I hope this left ventricle stuff doesn't happen to naturals who did 2 cycles of epistane years ago. :-\
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ECG is correct Gal, but im no doctor
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Every muscular person will have some LVH. It's a byproduct of the demand placed upon the heart. Gear is just gonna exacerbate it to a much worse degree.
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Then u got bbers like fak mubarak who turned pro 8 yrs ago but doesn't even compete but brags he's 250's and even up to 280's at 5'5 ::) oh brother
We will def have another in the future ::)
Wonder how many will there be the next 10 yrs??
At least Cormier said he was smart enough to stay small and look like he never lifted in his life ;D
Shawn too
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Once one of us performs his actual biopsy, that's when we will know how prominent the myocardial fibrosis was. Unfortunately, since none of us will get to see what his heart looks like, it's a mute point.
As for now, since no one on this forum will have access to his medical records, all we can do is speculate.
The easiest thing to do is to directly attribute and/or assume that his heart failure was caused due to his steroid use, but without his medical records, past blood work (to see whether he suffered from hyperlipidemia, hypertension, hypo/hyper-thyroidism, diabetes, kidney failure and to even possibly gauge what his BNP was), chest x-ray films, an echocardiogram, ekg, prior stress test results and even a prior CT or MRI scan of his heart, we only have speculation at best. If we had many of these elements, we can then get a better idea of what the full cardiac story was, but going only by pictures off the internet and rumors, we can't possibly assume anything.
To be clear, I'm not saying that steroids could have not played a role, but to directly attribute steroid use to his death is speculation at best.
Lets allow for the man to rest in peace.
"1"
I read a tinge of what has been said a bit more specifically in what you said and I'm sorry if I'm getting you wrong, but I'm addressing anybody who thinks this:
Quite a few people here do not seem to respect the fact that there are two things that happen when a human dies. They are both absolutely programmed into us.
One is the personal element - your connection with that person, memories etc
The other is: how can I avoid this from happening to me? The survival element. Fuck, he died from a tiger attack! I'm not getting into a tiger pen.
I really don't understand these attempts by some people to suppress others from trying to learn about a subject that let's face it, many put their head in the sand about. Clearly we have physicians in this thread providing information. It is not dishonoring the individual to discuss or speculate on an issue when the likelyhood is that someone that heavy died from being that heavy. It's not disrespectful, it's downright constructive to the alive portion of the human race - whom I'm sure Greg probably cared for.
To me, what is disrespectful is people trying to say to others, you shouldn't be allowed to speculate on why this person died, you shouldn't be looking at your own situation, wondering if there are any parallels. Honestly, I think making out that we're supposed to tiptoe around the cause of death for the first two weeks is faux political correctness
This isn't Greg's funeral. Very people, here know Greg and this is not the equivalent of mindlessly pushing grieving family members for information in their time of sadness. It's a message board that Greg didn't give a toss about because he had a real life. There are a lot of people who lift weights on this board and I'm betting a lot of people with history of heart problems in their family. Me, personally - I'm reading what is said and learning a bit.
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danny and the other doc heres my bloodwork results.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=507831.0
im not sooo pleased.
have a look and comment,would be apreciated much
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I really don't understand these attempts by some people to suppress others from trying to learn about a subject that let's face it, many put their head in the sand about.
Clearly we have physicians in this thread providing information.
Me, personally - I'm reading what is said and learning a bit.
A few things...
If by way of a side effect caused by sheer speculation you happen to learn something about cardiac physiology, that is absolutely fine. That is one of the great things about this forum, in that there is a wealth of information that many members have regarding matters surrounding close to just about anything that is openly shared amongst its members. While sharing information is great, it is very important to make sure that said information is factual and backed by studies and actual clinical data that supports what is being said. If you "learn" something here that is not necessarily true and then share it with others who might be pretty knowledgeable about the matter (say an actual cardiologist etc), it will sound a bit odd to them.
Clearly, there is no suggestion that anyone in this thread is an actual physician. Being a med student does not make one a physician. Heck, being a PGY1-3 (IM resident), also barely makes one a qualified physician since they are still learning and can't practice outside of a hospital.
I think many of the things Danny-boy has said are pretty sound, but there was one thing (the reversibility of cardiac hypertrophy in particular), that I do not believe is correct.
For instance, this statement suggests that:
Induced growth of cardiomyocyctes is irreversible my friend.....as seen in cases of hypertrophy, where the ventricle is forced to increase contractility in order to provide more oxygenated blood due to higher demand.... Follow physics...power = length x tension ... Something is going to have to give ...it was just a matter of time.. The human body can only compensate to a certain futile degree..... All the abusive factors contributed to his accelerated demise... And yes..numerous past bodybuilders of the 70s did indeed undergo bypass surgery of some form- although not the hypertrophic acceleration seen in generation GH coupled w other anabolic enhancements...
The statement in bold above is not correct. It is stated as an absolute and it is not necessarily true.
Cardiomyocyte (heart muscle) growth is reversible if caught early on enough. If Danny, or anyone else for that matter, can disprove that ventricular hypertrophy (as seen in patients with HTN-Hypertension) is irreversible, regardless of stage, I'd gladly ask them to post the peer reviewed studies to suggest otherwise.
For instance, here in UpToDate, which tends to be one of the top 5 clinician go-to guides, it states clearly that ventricular hypertrophy (induced growth of cariomyocytes) by way of hypertension can be reversed:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2j1q7i0.jpg)
(Notice how under the effects of antihypertensive therapy, it mentions how treatment for HTN will decrease mass in patients with left ventricular hypertrophy and a regression of hypertrophy can be seen. If induced cardiomyocyte growth was truly irreversible, there would be no way for this statement to be true and backed by not just hundreds of studies, but by the American Heart Association)
Not to mention, that it is VERY normal for adamant weightlifters to have mild-moderate left ventricular hypertrophy due to the excessive amount of weights that they lift. Once the stimuli is removed (be it hypertension or prolonged power-lifting, the hypertrophy will typically reverse).
Prolonged hypertrophy that goes untreated can result in heart failure, because like that of a rubber band, the heart muscle can only stretch but so much in order to compensate for the increased workload/demand in putting out oxygenated blood to the systemic circulation.
For more peer-reviewed readings that state clearly that ventricular hypertrophy is reversible, feel free to take a read at:
Ruilope LM, Schmieder RE. Left ventricular hypertrophy and clinical outcomes in hypertensive patients. Am J Hypertens 2008; 21:500.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/20 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/20))
Franz IW, Tönnesmann U, Müller JF. Time course of complete normalization of left ventricular hypertrophy during long-term antihypertensive therapy with angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors. Am J Hypertens 1998; 11:631.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/21 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/21))
Cuspidi C, Negri F, Zanchetti A. Angiotensin II receptor blockers and cardiovascular protection: focus on left ventricular hypertrophy regression and atrial fibrillation prevention. Vasc Health Risk Manag 2008; 4:67.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/22 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/22))
Okin PM, Devereux RB, Gerdts E, et al. Impact of diabetes mellitus on regression of electrocardiographic left ventricular hypertrophy and the prediction of outcome during antihypertensive therapy: the Losartan Intervention For Endpoint (LIFE) Reduction in Hypertension Study. Circulation 2006; 113:1588. (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/23 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/23))
Os I, Franco V, Kjeldsen SE, et al. Effects of losartan in women with hypertension and left ventricular hypertrophy: results from the Losartan Intervention for Endpoint Reduction in Hypertension Study. Hypertension 2008; 51:1103.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/24 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/24))
Solomon SD, Appelbaum E, Manning WJ, et al. Effect of the direct Renin inhibitor aliskiren, the Angiotensin receptor blocker losartan, or both on left ventricular mass in patients with hypertension and left ventricular hypertrophy. Circulation 2009; 119:530.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/25 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/25))
That's the only issue I had with Danny's post. The vast majority of what he posted is sound and makes excellent sense, but I disagree in that induced cardiomyocyte growth (as particular seen in ventricular hypertrophy) is irreversible as an absolute statement. If not treated early on, then yes, heart failure can ensue due to excessive cardiac remodeling that after enough time seizes to compensate for the demands of the heart.
Haha, classic denialist mentality stuff....
Steroids lead to permanent myocardial fibrosis and micro scarring leading to reduced efficiency, disturbed electrical conductivity and the leading cause of heart failure over any of the other issues that have have been highlighted above.
If you can post some peer-reviewed studies to substantiate your statements that steroid use will directly lead to the development of myocardial fibrosis and that steroid use is the leading cause of heart failure over other issues like Hypertension, I will gladly read them and evaluate, but for now those are just random, unsubstantiated statements.
Not everything that is spewed should be taken as gospel.
"1"
P.S. I knew Kovacs. I met him through Desmond Miller and Victor Martinez. The guy wasn't the friendliest guy and towards the end (last 5 years of his life) he became pretty bitter towards the "sport".
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P.S.S. If anyone wants more proof (as in peer-reviewed studies, links to UpToDate or scans of Harrison's Internal Medicine or textbooks provided to cardiac fellows in training) to substantiate that cardiac hypertrophy can be reversed if treated accordingly, please let me know.
I can post some more.
Here is another screen cap, just to make clear that my statements are not being pulled from gut feelings or assumptions:
Read closely at what I have highlighted (They clearly speak of a regression of ventricular hypertrophy and decreased cardiac mass - Regression meaning Reversal, hence why I say that induced cardiomyocyte growth is indeed reversible):
(http://i44.tinypic.com/xmibh1.jpg)
"1"
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I agree with your theory, changing my lifestyle and training from my younger days resulted in reversing the wall thickness on a comparison of ECG what does concern me is the elasticity fibrosis claims, CT scans of steroid users does show a higher rate of calcium deposits in heart tissue than none users pretty sure there is study either of university in California or Glamorgan in the uk where the claim was made, I can't back this up with your type of reference and only put the point forward for further debate. Happy for someone to discredit.
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More important than cardiac hipertrophy regression is lifestyle regression.
Does anyone think that a former pro just stops taking medication forever when they used it and abused it for years in a row, and go vegan?
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well, omr, thats fine but it states one has to stop lifting.
and the other problem is, some of them,like kovacs,have stopped lifting(from what it looked like),yet still drop dead.
seems that the reversing effect isnt so big.
???
More important than cardiac hipertrophy regression is lifestyle regression.
Does anyone think that a former pro just stops taking medication forever when they used it and abused it for years in a row, and go vegan?
yates no
wheeler no
levrone no
fux is off id say
dillet not so sure
many will def need hrt
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My point being-- The MAJORITY of cases w induced growth are caught far beyond reversibility that would really make a significant difference ...especially w those living this enhanced lifestyle for years.... Yes, the overall mass of the heart (ventricle in particular) may be reversed to a certain degree from its peak size if discontinuance of lifestyle occurs BUT it's efficiency will forever be changed..I'm speaking in regards to efficient conductivity and contractility..like an over stretched muscle over time-it's productivity will not be as effective. Think of a rubber band that u keep stretching...... The small reversibility of size that u indicate should not encourage those still abusing that their hearts will go back to normal...that is the take home message... This will be an ongoing problem for the great majority of these type of enhanced individuals....due to more than likely suffering from other systemic problems... Many children and adults who aren't enhanced athletes would have a better prognosis (who have enlarged hearts) I believe.. My opinion
Regression in the size of the cell does not mean their heart is reversed back into a healthy one.. U don't need a cardiologist to tell you this.... And this is the Majority of cases.... So if there is little growth fellas...and u catch it early.... Change your lifestyle immediately and believe the overall effect is real and detrimental over time... It's all about what u can do now to fix your life.... OMR I understand your specific point... But it mistakenly implies to the steroid abuser that whenever he wants to stop. - that his heart will revert back to normal.. The minute reversibility is more than likely mute at this point... IE. The ave male heart is around 10-12 ounces... Let's say it grows to 19-20 ounces for the enhanced individual..(completely hypothetical)... After cessation of lifestyle and drug therapy..heart reverts to 16-18 ounces (his heart originally at 10 ounces)... Technically, you're right..but is this really reversed?
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I should/will take my statement back from its bold indication and rephrase it to "induced growth over time by the enhanced lifter can be reversible to a small degree/extent, but it's effects are more than likely irreversibly damaging..especially to those who were abusing more long-term". I'd worry about more than just my heart at this point...
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I am sure the majority of these bodybuilders were given their fair share of warning signs by their own doctors..yet took that risk.... This lifestyle is an obsessive subculture, where many believe that they are the anomaly and won't succumb to human physiology... The more realistic bodybuilders ended their careers when they were warned.... I do not doubt that is why you do not see a comeback a la Shawn ray..even though I know he still has the drive to win it all... But am damn sure he now has a precondition like many who were a part of his era..where continuing competitive bodybuilding will have to shorten his lifespan.... Acceptance is a tough pill to swallow.... Nature stopped giving free lunches as soon as they were told..enough is enough...
Yup,better get used to it sure there will be plenty more to come!
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OMR I understand your specific point... But it mistakenly implies to the steroid abuser that whenever he wants to stop. - that his heart will revert back to normal.. The minute reversibility is more than likely mute at this point... IE. The ave male heart is around 10-12 ounces... Let's say it grows to 19-20 ounces for the enhanced individual..(completely hypothetical)... After cessation of lifestyle and drug therapy..heart reverts to 16-18 ounces (his heart originally at 10 ounces)... Technically, you're right..but is this really reversed?
As to the bolded statement above, not at all. I, in no way, implied that the steroid abuser's heart will definitely revert back to normal once he stops his long time abuse. On the contrary, I stated this:
That's the only issue I had with Danny's post. The vast majority of what he posted is sound and makes excellent sense, but I disagree in that induced cardiomyocyte growth (as particular seen in ventricular hypertrophy) is irreversible as an absolute statement. If not treated early on, then yes, heart failure can ensue due to excessive cardiac remodeling that after enough time seizes to compensate for the demands of the heart.
In other words, induced cardiomyocyte growth is REVERSIBLE if caught early on, but if left untreated, it will undoubtedly result in heart failure.
Further, you wrote:
My point being-- The MAJORITY of cases w induced growth are caught far beyond reversibility that would really make a significant difference ...especially w those living this enhanced lifestyle for years.... Yes, the overall mass of the heart (ventricle in particular) may be reversed to a certain degree from its peak size if discontinuance of lifestyle occurs BUT it's efficiency will forever be changed..I'm speaking in regards to efficient conductivity and contractility..like an over stretched muscle over time-it's productivity will not be as effective. Think of a rubber band that u keep stretching...... The small reversibility of size that u indicate should not encourage those still abusing that their hearts will go back to normal...that is the take home message... This will be an ongoing problem for the great majority of these type of enhanced individuals....due to more than likely suffering from other systemic problems... Many children and adults who aren't enhanced athletes would have a better prognosis (who have enlarged hearts) I believe.. My opinion
I think we stated the exact same point as exemplified by our identical rubber band metaphor:
Prolonged hypertrophy that goes untreated can result in heart failure, because like that of a rubber band, the heart muscle can only stretch but so much in order to compensate for the increased workload/demand in putting out oxygenated blood to the systemic circulation.
Ultimately, if you catch the hypertrophy early enough (and I mean early enough as in within 1-2 years tops) you could very well reverse it and like that of a stretched rubber band, the muscle will revert/regress to a fully functional state in systolic/diastolic function and ventricular chamber & myocardial size.
"1"
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thank God i never juiced or was ever intrested in it... seems a very high uncalculated risk to me. No one knows for sure what will happen to you in later years. I think if you are going to do it you Need a Sport Doctor or who ever Controlling it.,, but then again i know Zero on steroids because i never wanted to look into it..
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Same forearm as Cutler and Branch.
(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/389313_10151469567117503_359514247_n.jpg)
Sorry guys, but all you have to do is look at his face. Especially around his eyes. Clearly, he was not healthy.
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I agree with your theory, changing my lifestyle and training from my younger days resulted in reversing the wall thickness on a comparison of ECG what does concern me is the elasticity fibrosis claims, CT scans of steroid users does show a higher rate of calcium deposits in heart tissue than none users pretty sure there is study either of university in California or Glamorgan in the uk where the claim was made, I can't back this up with your type of reference and only put the point forward for further debate. Happy for someone to discredit.
To be frank, the initial claims made by member "Lord Chronos" are not claims that I have thoroughly researched and so I have no idea if his stance is correct or not. Maybe Danny-boy can chime in if he has read up on literature that can substantiate Lord Chronos' statement.
I'm assuming this is what your concern revolves around:
Haha, classic denialist mentality stuff....
Steroids lead to permanent myocardial fibrosis and micro scarring leading to reduced efficiency, disturbed electrical conductivity and the leading cause of heart failure over any of the other issues that have have been highlighted above.
I can only speak from what I have seen and read regarding cardiac (particular ventricular - since atrial revolves around faulty valves causing back-flow leading to chamber enlargement and further pulmonary edema) hypertrophy cases.
I would have to read up on actual studies that might have looked at the effects of prolonged steroid use on the hearts of those undergoing Cardio-Thoracic surgery (what they saw once they opened the sternum) or even post-mortem studies.
"1"
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To be frank, the initial claims made by member "Lord Chronos" are not claims that I have thoroughly researched and so I have no idea if his stance is correct or not. Maybe Danny-boy can chime in if he has read up on literature that can substantiate Lord Chronos' statement.
I'm assuming this is what your concern revolves around:
I can only speak from what I have seen and read regarding cardiac (particular ventricular - since atrial revolves around faulty valves causing back-flow leading to chamber enlargement and further pulmonary edema) hypertrophy cases.
I would have to read up on actual studies that might have looked at the effects of prolonged steroid use on the hearts of those undergoing Cardio-Thoracic surgery (what they saw once they opened the sternum) or even post-mortem studies.
"1"
Fibrosis is the body's innate way of repairing these damaged cardiomyocytes... which would eventually cause the stiffening of the ventricle... Constant excessive lengthening/stretching and reverting to original position - will cause damage == thus leading our own body's defense mechanism to take over... =Fibrosis... as also seen in lung conditions
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OMR - i do believe that you were never trying to convince the steroid user that he would be able to revert back to normal...unfortunately, i get the sense from this board that many of the steroid/gh,etc. users here may read into the context of your statement/point incorrectly.. and assume the extreme - which is full recovery
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And then we have the kind of "moderate" bodybuilders who kept diet and juicing under control and achieved stardom without falling into disgrace
Francis has 53 yo in this pic.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k627/OMClarke/f837afed5e4beb77aa9dc1e0a042ce44_zps0f8473a5.jpg)
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Sorry guys, but all you have to do is look at his face. Especially around his eyes. Clearly, he was not healthy.
I thought that too..
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Fibrosis is the body's innate way of repairing these damaged cardiomyocytes... which would eventually cause the stiffening of the ventricle... Constant excessive lengthening/stretching and reverting to original position - will cause damage == thus leading our own body's defense mechanism to take over... =Fibrosis... as also seen in lung conditions
I know the exact mechanism by which fibrosis develops following damaged muscle cells. The physiological progression isn't what I am uncertain of.
The question posed by "honest" was:
I agree with your theory, changing my lifestyle and training from my younger days resulted in reversing the wall thickness on a comparison of ECG what does concern me is the elasticity fibrosis claims, CT scans of steroid users does show a higher rate of calcium deposits in heart tissue than none users pretty sure there is study either of university in California or Glamorgan in the uk where the claim was made, I can't back this up with your type of reference and only put the point forward for further debate. Happy for someone to discredit.
Whereby, the bolded statement targets the notion of fibrosis as it relates to elasticity in the heart of an individual like that of member "honest" where he changed his lifestyle and training habits from younger days which resulted in reversal of his ventricular wall thickness, but is still wondering as to whether or not steroid use will lead to cardiac muscle fibrosis, in light of positive lifestyle changes being undertaken.
I believe he was looking further into this statement by "lord chronos":
Haha, classic denialist mentality stuff....
Steroids lead to permanent myocardial fibrosis and micro scarring leading to reduced efficiency, disturbed electrical conductivity and the leading cause of heart failure over any of the other issues that have have been highlighted above.
Whereas, my punting over of the question involves not the need for an explanation behind the exact mechanism in which muscle fibrosis occurs after prolonged damage, but, moreover, whether or not any peer-reviewed studies or actual clinical cases that can be pegged, show that lord chronos' statements are in fact justifiable.
Again, the pathology behind fibrosis is very much so understood. My punting over to you was meant in order to see if you have read of any actual studies that can be provided to member "honest" and/or seen clinical cases (during CT surgery whereby heart tissue damage can be directly visualized and/or by witnessed autopsies) that suggest that steroid use led to blatant myocardial fibrosis.
Since I haven't read too many studies surrounding the idea of "Steroids leading to permanent myocardial fibrosis and micro scarring", I was wondering if you had any direct input on the matter based on factual material.
"1"
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OMR - i do believe that you were never trying to convince the steroid user that he would be able to revert back to normal...unfortunately, i get the sense from this board that many of the steroid/gh,etc. users here may read into the context of your statement/point incorrectly.. and assume the extreme - which is full recovery
I concur with this statement. Unfortunately, mentioning the potential inherent risks alone is typically not enough to persuade folks to stay away from the stuff.
"1"
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And then we have the kind of "moderate" bodybuilders who kept diet and juicing under control and achieved stardom without falling into disgrace
Francis has 53 yo in this pic.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k627/OMClarke/f837afed5e4beb77aa9dc1e0a042ce44_zps0f8473a5.jpg)
Needs a head reduction but still a good physique.
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And then we have the kind of "moderate" bodybuilders who kept diet and juicing under control and achieved stardom without falling into disgrace
Francis has 53 yo in this pic.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k627/OMClarke/f837afed5e4beb77aa9dc1e0a042ce44_zps0f8473a5.jpg)
Nothing moderate about this. He was like 30lbs heavier than his pre-retirement Olympia competition weight. Major GH and insulin use along with high doses of steroids.
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the last guy is not kovacs
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Nothing moderate about this. He was like 30lbs heavier than his pre-retirement Olympia competition weight. Major GH and insulin use along with high doses of steroids.
YES,,the physique /nice lines/shape he was known for is not quite the same with added size,he's actually a more sized bber than a classic streamlined look he came up with originally,moderate dose yeah right as u said and pointed out,he doing more now , probably..
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And then we have the kind of "moderate" bodybuilders who kept diet and juicing under control and achieved stardom without falling into disgrace
Francis has 53 yo in this pic.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k627/OMClarke/f837afed5e4beb77aa9dc1e0a042ce44_zps0f8473a5.jpg)
Cat looks good, real good. He is on EVERYTHING and has been for decades. His frame is not designed for mass monster status and he is smart enough to know.
"Moderate" in bodybuilding = keeping off season weight under 300.
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Moderate certainly is a relative term regarding Bodybuilding! Really means juiced to the gills!
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,moderate dose yeah right as u said and pointed out,he doing more now , probably..
Probably? :D
This pic is all that's needed. Consider the age too. You aren't building anything new at 50+
after already a lifetime on drugs without going nuts on the gear. 30 fucking pounds of lean tissue!
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Probably? :D
This pic is all that's needed. Consider the age too.
STILL wicked build considering 53,but he lost the lines like I said and waist was sacrificed,age/drug 's and continuing using is what caused it,looks like a small eater ,but size comes from something and drug's head the top of list.leg's and delts are at there biggest at 53 ok...
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STILL wicked build considering 53,but he lost the lines like I said and waist was sacrificed,age/drug 's and continuing using is what caused it,looks like a small eater ,but size comes from something and drug's head the top of list.leg's and delts are at there biggest at 53 ok...
agree Steve. you see it clearly in the waist. Suppose it´s hard for These guys to let go...still look at Bob Paris. lookes healthy to me in Pictures after his Bodybuilding career.
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always liked Bob Paris...
http://www.bobparis.com/
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Probably? :D
This pic is all that's needed. Consider the age too. You aren't building anything new at 50+
after already a lifetime on drugs without going nuts on the gear. 30 fucking pounds of lean tissue!
my favorite bodybuilder 8)
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lol@francis moderate doses.
really a vague term.
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Probably? :D
This pic is all that's needed. Consider the age too. You aren't building anything new at 50+
after already a lifetime on drugs without going nuts on the gear. 30 fucking pounds of lean tissue!
Might die at 55 who knows....
I remember when art died, it was from heart failure and he wasn't even 40, think mid to late 30's :-\ had a heart attack and fell into the pool....that was the story I got
Nice guy too, met him through a friend of mine and was always willing to help , but never looked healthy one bit, always heavy breathing, out of breath, purple skin , lots of signs
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Sad news is strongman Mike Jenkins died yesterday, he was only 31 or 32 I think
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Few people I have seen over the years, who live the "lifestyle" have similar diagnosis. Heart failure. Persistent elevated demand on the heart due to high blood pressure, supranormal bodyweight, heavy training, makes heart muscle thick and non-compliant, causing a type of heart failure, where heart cannot relax enough to accomodate required amount of blood for each pump. As the result the end organs such as kidney, and lungs suffer. Elevated blood pressure puts an extra stress on heart valves, often slowly destroying them in the process. Which in turn puts more demand on the heart.
I think steroids add to this picture by independently causing elevated blood pressure and raising cholesterol levels, which predisposes to blockage of heart arteries and causing damage to heart muscle by not giving it enough of its own blood supply.
I can only guess what happened to Greg, but it is more and more clear that as, few people here said, when you are overweight, your organs suffer whether it is muscle or fat. Extreme bodybuilding is not good for your health in any way shape or form.
Greg and Nasser were my heroes growing up. I have met them both and it is sad to see what happened to these guys.
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Greg and Nasser were my heroes growing up. I have met them both and it is sad to see what happened to these guys.
Choose your heroes wisely.
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I was a teen in mid 90's. That being said, you are right!
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P.I.P. Big Greg :'(
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Once one of us performs his actual biopsy, that's when we will know how prominent the myocardial fibrosis was. Unfortunately, since none of us will get to see what his heart looks like, it's a mute point.
As for now, since no one on this forum will have access to his medical records, all we can do is speculate.
The easiest thing to do is to directly attribute and/or assume that his heart failure was caused due to his steroid use, but without his medical records, past blood work (to see whether he suffered from hyperlipidemia, hypertension, hypo/hyper-thyroidism, diabetes, kidney failure and to even possibly gauge what his BNP was), chest x-ray films, an echocardiogram, ekg, prior stress test results and even a prior CT or MRI scan of his heart, we only have speculation at best. If we had many of these elements, we can then get a better idea of what the full cardiac story was, but going only by pictures off the internet and rumors, we can't possibly assume anything.
To be clear, I'm not saying that steroids could have not played a role, but to directly attribute steroid use to his death is speculation at best.
Lets allow for the man to rest in peace.
"1"
Agreed.
I just find the head in the sand mentality of some AAS users insane. However I think its worthwhile to discuss the points Danny, yourself and few others have raised.
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A few things...
If by way of a side effect caused by sheer speculation you happen to learn something about cardiac physiology, that is absolutely fine. That is one of the great things about this forum, in that there is a wealth of information that many members have regarding matters surrounding close to just about anything that is openly shared amongst its members. While sharing information is great, it is very important to make sure that said information is factual and backed by studies and actual clinical data that supports what is being said. If you "learn" something here that is not necessarily true and then share it with others who might be pretty knowledgeable about the matter (say an actual cardiologist etc), it will sound a bit odd to them.
Clearly, there is no suggestion that anyone in this thread is an actual physician. Being a med student does not make one a physician. Heck, being a PGY1-3 (IM resident), also barely makes one a qualified physician since they are still learning and can't practice outside of a hospital.
I think many of the things Danny-boy has said are pretty sound, but there was one thing (the reversibility of cardiac hypertrophy in particular), that I do not believe is correct.
For instance, this statement suggests that:
The statement in bold above is not correct. It is stated as an absolute and it is not necessarily true.
Cardiomyocyte (heart muscle) growth is reversible if caught early on enough. If Danny, or anyone else for that matter, can disprove that ventricular hypertrophy (as seen in patients with HTN-Hypertension) is irreversible, regardless of stage, I'd gladly ask them to post the peer reviewed studies to suggest otherwise.
For instance, here in UpToDate, which tends to be one of the top 5 clinician go-to guides, it states clearly that ventricular hypertrophy (induced growth of cariomyocytes) by way of hypertension can be reversed:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2j1q7i0.jpg)
(Notice how under the effects of antihypertensive therapy, it mentions how treatment for HTN will decrease mass in patients with left ventricular hypertrophy and a regression of hypertrophy can be seen. If induced cardiomyocyte growth was truly irreversible, there would be no way for this statement to be true and backed by not just hundreds of studies, but by the American Heart Association)
Not to mention, that it is VERY normal for adamant weightlifters to have mild-moderate left ventricular hypertrophy due to the excessive amount of weights that they lift. Once the stimuli is removed (be it hypertension or prolonged power-lifting, the hypertrophy will typically reverse).
Prolonged hypertrophy that goes untreated can result in heart failure, because like that of a rubber band, the heart muscle can only stretch but so much in order to compensate for the increased workload/demand in putting out oxygenated blood to the systemic circulation.
For more peer-reviewed readings that state clearly that ventricular hypertrophy is reversible, feel free to take a read at:
Ruilope LM, Schmieder RE. Left ventricular hypertrophy and clinical outcomes in hypertensive patients. Am J Hypertens 2008; 21:500.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/20 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/20))
Franz IW, Tönnesmann U, Müller JF. Time course of complete normalization of left ventricular hypertrophy during long-term antihypertensive therapy with angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors. Am J Hypertens 1998; 11:631.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/21 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/21))
Cuspidi C, Negri F, Zanchetti A. Angiotensin II receptor blockers and cardiovascular protection: focus on left ventricular hypertrophy regression and atrial fibrillation prevention. Vasc Health Risk Manag 2008; 4:67.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/22 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/22))
Okin PM, Devereux RB, Gerdts E, et al. Impact of diabetes mellitus on regression of electrocardiographic left ventricular hypertrophy and the prediction of outcome during antihypertensive therapy: the Losartan Intervention For Endpoint (LIFE) Reduction in Hypertension Study. Circulation 2006; 113:1588. (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/23 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/23))
Os I, Franco V, Kjeldsen SE, et al. Effects of losartan in women with hypertension and left ventricular hypertrophy: results from the Losartan Intervention for Endpoint Reduction in Hypertension Study. Hypertension 2008; 51:1103.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/24 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/24))
Solomon SD, Appelbaum E, Manning WJ, et al. Effect of the direct Renin inhibitor aliskiren, the Angiotensin receptor blocker losartan, or both on left ventricular mass in patients with hypertension and left ventricular hypertrophy. Circulation 2009; 119:530.
(http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/25 (http://www.uptodate.com/contents/clinical-implications-and-treatment-of-left-ventricular-hypertrophy-in-hypertension/abstract/25))
That's the only issue I had with Danny's post. The vast majority of what he posted is sound and makes excellent sense, but I disagree in that induced cardiomyocyte growth (as particular seen in ventricular hypertrophy) is irreversible as an absolute statement. If not treated early on, then yes, heart failure can ensue due to excessive cardiac remodeling that after enough time seizes to compensate for the demands of the heart.
If you can post some peer-reviewed studies to substantiate your statements that steroid use will directly lead to the development of myocardial fibrosis and that steroid use is the leading cause of heart failure over other issues like Hypertension, I will gladly read them and evaluate, but for now those are just random, unsubstantiated statements.
Not everything that is spewed should be taken as gospel.
"1"
P.S. I knew Kovacs. I met him through Desmond Miller and Victor Martinez. The guy wasn't the friendliest guy and towards the end (last 5 years of his life) he became pretty bitter towards the "sport".
Hypertrophy is reversible, there is plenty of literature on this, however, it has also been documented that weight lifting induced hypertrophy in a natural trainer is not the same the hypertrophy in the AAS trainer.
The type of growth is different resulting in slightly different structural results. In the non AAS users, when they stopped training the hypertrophy reduced at a faster rate than the AAS user. Hypertrophy is just one of a myriad of cardiac changes that AAS cause and I would speculate one of the more reversible ones.
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I know the exact mechanism by which fibrosis develops following damaged muscle cells. The physiological progression isn't what I am uncertain of.
The question posed by "honest" was:
Whereby, the bolded statement targets the notion of fibrosis as it relates to elasticity in the heart of an individual like that of member "honest" where he changed his lifestyle and training habits from younger days which resulted in reversal of his ventricular wall thickness, but is still wondering as to whether or not steroid use will lead to cardiac muscle fibrosis, in light of positive lifestyle changes being undertaken.
I believe he was looking further into this statement by "lord chronos":
Whereas, my punting over of the question involves not the need for an explanation behind the exact mechanism in which muscle fibrosis occurs after prolonged damage, but, moreover, whether or not any peer-reviewed studies or actual clinical cases that can be pegged, show that lord chronos' statements are in fact justifiable.
Again, the pathology behind fibrosis is very much so understood. My punting over to you was meant in order to see if you have read of any actual studies that can be provided to member "honest" and/or seen clinical cases (during CT surgery whereby heart tissue damage can be directly visualized and/or by witnessed autopsies) that suggest that steroid use led to blatant myocardial fibrosis.
Since I haven't read too many studies surrounding the idea of "Steroids leading to permanent myocardial fibrosis and micro scarring", I was wondering if you had any direct input on the matter based on factual material.
"1"
There are a few studies that discuss the other side effects of steroids such as myocardial fibrosis. I dont have all of the them to hand, as I looked at this about ten years ago and posted a few on a few forums and got the same head in the sand denialist mentality from people who didnt want to discuss.
Fineschi V, Riezzo I, Centini F, et al. Sudden cardiac death during anabolic steroid abuse: morphologic and toxicologic findings in two fatal cases of bodybuilders. Int J Legal Med 2007;121:48–53.
Includes autopsy details with extensive information on scarring and fibrosis in two bodybuilder deaths.
www.researchgate.net/.../79e4150767bf7374d5.pdf (http://www.researchgate.net/.../79e4150767bf7374d5.pdf)
Ohio State University review
www.anabolicsteroidcalculator.com/resources/articles/.../chapter18.pdf (http://www.anabolicsteroidcalculator.com/resources/articles/.../chapter18.pdf)
Sudden death is the most frightening consequence of AAS use. The etiology of these events likely is multifactorial, with AAS use contributing to the observed pathology. There are case reports of myocardial infarctions [49], stroke, and peripheral vascular obstruction [50] from thrombus that likely are related to the changes in platelet function, inflammation, and cho- lesterol metabolism discussed above. Autopsies of 34 users of AASs found chronic cardiac changes consisting of cardiac hypertrophy, myocardial fibrosis, and coronary artery atheromatous changes in 12 victims, although these were believed to contribute to the deaths of only 2 victims [48].
Many sudden death events among AAS users have been due to ischemia secondary to coronary artery disease; however, there is a report of ventric- ular tachycardia during exercise testing of an AAS user who had myocardial fibrosis on biopsy [51]. Other case reports of sudden death demonstrate diffuse, patchy fibrotic changes in the myocardium of AAS users without coronary artery atherosclerosis [47]. The presence of scar or infiltrative pro- cesses is commonly believed to be a cause for arrhythmia. The exact cause of sudden death in AAS users is unclear but likely is due to ischemia or arrhythmia.
Cause and manner of death among users of anabolic androgenic steroids.
Thiblin I, Lindquist O, Rajs J.
Source
Department of Forensic Medicine, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden.
http://www.sudmed.ru/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=4067 (http://www.sudmed.ru/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=4067)
Myocardial hypertrophy or other chronic myocardial lesions,
i.e., diffuse or patchy myocardial fibrosis, and myocardial steato-
sis, were noticed in 12 of 25 microscopically investigated cases.
Androgen Abuse and Increased Cardiac Risk John P. Higgins, MD, MPhil, Alireza Heshmat, MD, Christopher L. Higgins, BHMS
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/775869_2 (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/775869_2)
Myocardial Histologic Changes
A 2005 study reported two cases of sudden cardiac death in young male athletes related to AAS abuse.[14] Both cases involved healthy individuals without any history of coronary artery disease (CAD) and no evidence of significant abnormality in arterial microscopic examination. Autopsy of both hearts showed focal myocardial fibrosis suggestive of prior myocardial injury. In a study of a sudden unexpected death in a female fitness athlete using steroids and ephedrine, the only pathological finding was a few small foci of granulation tissue, which was interpreted as evidence of earlier myocardial necrosis.[15] Sudden cardiac arrhythmia resulting from inflammatory process and myocardial fibrosis was suggested to be the cause of death in these cases. Other researchers have reported sudden cardiac deaths related to steroids that also showed myocardial fibrosis in the absence of CAD
Reduced Cardiac Function
An echocardiographic study of 47 strength-training individuals (46 male subjects), 28 of whom were regular AAS users, revealed a lower systolic function in AAS users versus nonusers, ejection fractions 58% versus 63%, respectively.[18] In addition, there was evidence of reduced diastolic function by tissue Doppler measurement in the AAS users (ie, their hearts were weaker and stiffer). Another study of 12 long-term AAS users noted that compared with controls, they were noted to have significant systolic cardiac dysfunction as measured by lower left ventricular ejection fraction (50.1% vs 59.1%; P = 0.003), leading the authors to suggest that further work is needed to determine the extent of this problem.[24] An Italian Doppler imaging study also showed reduced systolic function but in a regional distribution.[25]
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RIP Big Kovacs, the Canadian Mucleman.
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RIP Big Kovacs, the Canadian Mucleman.
whats a 'mucleman'
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whats a 'mucleman'
something you will never be.....
RIP Kovacs
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something you will never be.....
RIP Kovacs
:-*
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whats a 'mucleman'
A secret term schmoes call men in thongs
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I thought that too..
So what is it in his face that makes it so clear that he was "unhealthy"? He looks overweight and we now know about his health, but what about his face are you guys seeing?
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Nothing moderate about this. He was like 30lbs heavier than his pre-retirement Olympia competition weight. Major GH and insulin use along with high doses of steroids.
Wasn't he also busted with thousands of xanax going into another country for just a couple of days and then all fukced up and walking around in the lobby in his PJ's? If so, that alone points to most likely being some kind of addict...Addicts don't use moderation in anything.
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So what is it in his face that makes it so clear that he was "unhealthy"? He looks overweight and we now know about his health, but what about his face are you guys seeing?
Doom will assume you are very young (or that you are playing dumb). Once you have had bit more life experience you can readily see the difference between someone who looks healthy and someone who has death written on their face. If you have spent any time in hospitals you have seen this look. It becomes evident on patients with cancer, aids, heart failure or any number of other ailments. The look is different for each illness but oddly similar across the board. Kovacs had that look. It was obvious to anyone a little experience that he was ill and unlikely to recover.
Once this look takes hold it is very rare for a person to fully recover, but it can happen. D. Cheney and M. Douglass are examples of people who were at death's door and recovered. Both now look remarkably better than they do in those photos. Remember the photos of Steve Jobs at the end? Same thing. Bah!
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He took his medicine for what?
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Wasn't he also busted with thousands of xanax going into another country for just a couple of days and then all fukced up and walking around in the lobby in his PJ's? If so, that alone points to most likely being some kind of addict...Addicts don't use moderation in anything.
Yeah he was busted with Valium and Ritalin in Australia.
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Life killed him!
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Oh wow, just noticed this now :o :o
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Life killed him!
Remember God took your job, so did God take his life?
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Doom will assume you are very young (or that you are playing dumb). Once you have had bit more life experience you can readily see the difference between someone who looks healthy and someone who has death written on their face. If you have spent any time in hospitals you have seen this look. It becomes evident on patients with cancer, aids, heart failure or any number of other ailments. The look is different for each illness but oddly similar across the board. Kovacs had that look. It was obvious to anyone a little experience that he was ill and unlikely to recover.
Once this look takes hold it is very rare for a person to fully recover, but it can happen. D. Cheney and M. Douglass are examples of people who were at death's door and recovered. Both now look remarkably better than they do in those photos. Remember the photos of Steve Jobs at the end? Same thing. Bah!
Apart from all of your examples looking drawn and emaciated (which does not apply to Kovacs), I don't know what you are talking about. I am plenty old, probably older than you.
Anyway, it is not worth pursuing this. Greg Kovacs was a superstar when he was young. He had flaws like all of us, but he reached for his dream, which so many people never do. RIP.
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Apart from all of your examples looking drawn and emaciated (which does not apply to Kovacs), I don't know what you are talking about. I am plenty old, probably older than you.
Anyway, it is not worth pursuing this. Greg Kovacs was a superstar when he was young. He had flaws like all of us, but he reached for his dream, which so many people never do. RIP.
If you don't see it, you don't see it. Obviously, you can't see what many others can. So be it. But is the arc of his life and career really something you are applauding or wish to emulate? I doubt it. Happy marriage? Children? Professional/financial success? Notable charitable work? Artistic legacy? No. No. No. No. No. Dead at 44 with virtually nothing to show for it.
True, he burned brightly for a short time but most of it was hype; his bodybuilding record was hardly distinguished. :(
1997 Night of Champions - IFBB, Did not place
1998 Ironman Pro Invitational - IFBB, 16th
2001 Night of Champions - IFBB, Did not place
2004 Arnold Classic - IFBB, 13th
2005 Toronto Pro - IFBB, Did not place
Bah!
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If you don't see it, you don't see it. Obviously, you can't see what many others can. So be it. But is the arc of his life and career really something you are applauding or wish to emulate? I doubt it. Happy marriage? Children? Professional/financial success? Notable charitable work? Artistic legacy? No. No. No. No. No. Dead at 44 with virtually nothing to show for it.
True, he burned brightly for a short time but most of it was hype; his bodybuilding record was hardly distinguished. :(
1997 Night of Champions - IFBB, Did not place
1998 Ironman Pro Invitational - IFBB, 16th
2001 Night of Champions - IFBB, Did not place
2004 Arnold Classic - IFBB, 13th
2005 Toronto Pro - IFBB, Did not place
Bah!
NEVER HAD a 2nd act known for being massive,wheeler /ray great stage career's and segued to 2nd act as behind the scenes and gave up there champion 'builds'
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If you don't see it, you don't see it. Obviously, you can't see what many others can. So be it. But is the arc of his life and career really something you are applauding or wish to emulate? I doubt it. Happy marriage? Children? Professional/financial success? Notable charitable work? Artistic legacy? No. No. No. No. No. Dead at 44 with virtually nothing to show for it.
True, he burned brightly for a short time but most of it was hype; his bodybuilding record was hardly distinguished. :(
1997 Night of Champions - IFBB, Did not place
1998 Ironman Pro Invitational - IFBB, 16th
2001 Night of Champions - IFBB, Did not place
2004 Arnold Classic - IFBB, 13th
2005 Toronto Pro - IFBB, Did not place
Bah!
An ineffable "death look" that cannot be described, but one that you and an undisclosed cadre of others can detect? Yes, of course.
Have whatever opinion you want of Greg Kovacs' achievements. From his early youth all that he wanted was success in the bodybuilding world and he pursued that dream. I would choose to leave it at that.
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the only thing Greg abused were bathroom towels
everything else was within reason. but in the end the towels got to him
let that be a lesson to you all
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I'll bet a box of smores Nitro-Tech bars that Aaron "Mr. Intensity" Maddron delivers the eulogy.
Aaron delivers Eulogy's for bodybuilders 374% more intense than other Bodybuilders.
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Well said Slate and Grim!
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RIP, big K. :(
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Sucks, he seemed like a nice fella. R.I.P.
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I put up a story on Greg on my Blast from the past thread.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=493468.225
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I put up a story on Greg on my Blast from the past thread.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=493468.225
Thanks for linking it in. He really looked amazing in that NPC poster.
He deserves to be remembered.
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he was very long with his woman.therefore, happy marriage.
he didnt place well, but was getting more covers and pages of propaganda than ppl who placed well in shows.
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Greg was a heavy rec drug user, specifically Ketamine, GHB and benzos.
He seemed to need to escape reality, even at the peak of his career.
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Greg was a heavy rec drug user, specifically Ketamine, GHB and benzos.
He seemed to need to escape reality, even at the peak of his career.
I've abused all of the above and they didn't kill me.
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Greg was a heavy rec drug user, specifically Ketamine, GHB and benzos.
He seemed to need to escape reality, even at the peak of his career.
Speak more on this!
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I've abused all of the above and they didn't kill me.
Borracho with extreme immune system genes, probably could even drink Draino.
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Borracho with extreme immune system genes, probably could even drink Draino.
I probably have :-\
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I probably have :-\
;D
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Speak more on this!
Greg and his wife "partied" a lot.
By "partied" im referring to locking themselves in a hotel room and falling into a k hole.
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Greg and his wife "partied" a lot.
By "partied" im referring to locking themselves in a hotel room and falling into a k hole.
but how did he manage to eat the cals and protein required etc?
surely wasnt an everyday rec drugs addict?
i seriously dont see how a daily rec drug user could maintain the lifters lifestyle.
i agrre he sure was a "heavy" user, he weighed 400lbs
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He divorced in 2011 and was never the same. He needed a lot more towels once she left.
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but how did he manage to eat the cals and protein required etc?
surely wasnt an everyday rec drugs addict?
i seriously dont see how a daily rec drug user could maintain the lifters lifestyle.
i agrre he sure was a "heavy" user, he weighed 400lbs
Well, I cant imagine he spent every single day all day long in a K hole.
Greg definitely ate a ton, but its not like he was eating 2 chicken breasts every 2 hours all day long. He ate a ton of fast food and ice cream (similar diet to Mike M) which I am sure contributed to the problems - especially combined with the AAS and recs. Its not extremely hard to meet your caloric requirements with a few double bacon cheeseburgers and some whey protein blended with ice cream.
As far as the AAS use goes...I'd be lying if I said I knew Greg's exact stack, compound for compound. What I do know is he used a ton of testosterone, in pretty much every ester. He was known for loading up the 5cc barrels with test (usually a mix of prop, cyp, decanoate) and just hitting that ED or EOD. He was one of those guys that didnt really count milligrams or anything but just went on oil volume (youd be surprised how many top level pros do this).
Another Kovacs fact I remember is that he followed the Dan Duchaine recommendation of mixing a bunch of different oils in a large jug (50 or more cc jug) and just pinning 3-5cc's of it at a time as a "blast."
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Well, I cant imagine he spent every single day all day long in a K hole.
Greg definitely ate a ton, but its not like he was eating 2 chicken breasts every 2 hours all day long. He ate a ton of fast food and ice cream (similar diet to Mike M) which I am sure contributed to the problems - especially combined with the AAS and recs. Its not extremely hard to meet your caloric requirements with a few double bacon cheeseburgers and some whey protein blended with ice cream.
As far as the AAS use goes...I'd be lying if I said I knew Greg's exact stack, compound for compound. What I do know is he used a ton of testosterone, in pretty much every ester. He was known for loading up the 5cc barrels with test (usually a mix of prop, cyp, decanoate) and just hitting that ED or EOD. He was one of those guys that didnt really count milligrams or anything but just went on oil volume (youd be surprised how many top level pros do this).
Another Kovacs fact I remember is that he followed the Dan Duchaine recommendation of mixing a bunch of different oils in a large jug (50 or more cc jug) and just pinning 3-5cc's of it at a time as a "blast."
nuts,,,had the size to look not human,but on the stage did n't have the stage look,both looks take extreme measures to get there and powerlifters as well to be a freak u have to do things like a freak,unless genetics are insane the more the better,,as gifted as flex wheeler was he resorted to extreme measures to get freakier with the times too.
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naturalos are on thin ice too with their meth-like pre workout garbage and organ melting pro hormonas
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Well, I cant imagine he spent every single day all day long in a K hole.
Greg definitely ate a ton, but its not like he was eating 2 chicken breasts every 2 hours all day long. He ate a ton of fast food and ice cream (similar diet to Mike M) which I am sure contributed to the problems - especially combined with the AAS and recs. Its not extremely hard to meet your caloric requirements with a few double bacon cheeseburgers and some whey protein blended with ice cream.
As far as the AAS use goes...I'd be lying if I said I knew Greg's exact stack, compound for compound. What I do know is he used a ton of testosterone, in pretty much every ester. He was known for loading up the 5cc barrels with test (usually a mix of prop, cyp, decanoate) and just hitting that ED or EOD. He was one of those guys that didnt really count milligrams or anything but just went on oil volume (youd be surprised how many top level pros do this).
Another Kovacs fact I remember is that he followed the Dan Duchaine recommendation of mixing a bunch of different oils in a large jug (50 or more cc jug) and just pinning 3-5cc's of it at a time as a "blast."
He use to hammer synthol before hitting Guv and Film. Loved that crap.
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Greg was a heavy rec drug user, specifically Ketamine, GHB and benzos.
He seemed to need to escape reality, even at the peak of his career.
No not heavy, maybe he had his moments occasionally but not heavy by relative terms, he looked normal daily and carried himself well, nothing noticeable as in you can tell by looking at him.
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He use to hammer synthol before hitting Guv and Film. Loved that crap.
Kovacs seemed more like a comfort zone kinda guy. :D
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No not heavy, maybe he had his moments occasionally but not heavy by relative terms, he looked normal daily and carried himself well, nothing noticeable as in you can tell by looking at him.
You knew him well OTH?
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You knew him well OTH?
I have known him for over 12 years, not to well, but enough to have some good conversations with him and some dinners with a group of us over the years. and have seen him train many, many times, but have seen him 100's of times in person, cause I lived in the same area back 6 years ago and he never looked drugged up or behaved inappropriately, always conducted himself well and respectful. Very polite and nice.
I am at the heart of the bodybuilding community in my neck of the woods for over a decade and have access to all local gossip and there is nothing going around about Kovacks and drug use, ya maybe he did have habits but to say they were heavy? NOPE,,.... ''Heavy means junky looking, no showers, stinky, runned down, that is a heavy drug user. The man conducted himself professionally and never looked out to lunch or out of the normal state.
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Kovacs seemed more like a comfort zone kinda guy. :D
lmao!!!! I like you Borracho.
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During the time I knew him, he was basically an unassuming fella, apart from being physically MONSTROUS. This was when the MuscleTech thing was happening and Paul Gardiner (its owner) was planning his rise to wealth with his horseshit supplements. You know, when all the "test batches" were being pimped in MuscleMag, and those first ads appeared, featuring ol' Paul. At that point, there wasn't even product. Just thoughts about the artwork on the labels.
Oh, the actual supplements? Yeah, who cares ... What raw supplier's are in the area? ::)
Anyway ... Greg was gigantic and he didn't move around (re: walk) with much comfort. Weird recollection: One day he swung by MuscleMag and I helped him find some photos in our pic files. I remember thinking, Holy moly, look at his shoes! They're collapsing from his weight!
Fourty-four really is too young. :-[
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During the time I knew him, he was basically an unassuming fella, apart from being physically MONSTROUS. This was when the MuscleTech thing was happening and Paul Gardiner (its owner) was planning his rise to wealth with his horseshit supplements. You know, when all the "test batches" were being pimped in MuscleMag, and those first ads appeared, featuring ol' Paul. At that point, there wasn't even product. Just thoughts about the artwork on the labels.
Oh, the actual supplements? Yeah, who cares ... What raw supplier's are in the area? ::)
Anyway ... Greg was gigantic and he didn't move around (re: walk) with much comfort. Weird recollection: One day he swung by MuscleMag and I helped him find some photos in our pic files. I remember thinking, Holy moly, look at his shoes! They're collapsing from his weight!
Fourty-four really is too young. :-[
Hey bro I have been meaning to ask you about one small article in Musclemag where a writer responded to a guy about Kovacks.
it was something along the lines of This guy claiming he might be stronger and he wrote his claims and the writer of musclemag laughed and gave him a reality check and a description of how truly strong Kovacks was .
Around 1999, accompanied with a picture, it was the towards the beginning of the magazine and it was a quarter page tidbit or so, titled Canadian strongest or something.
Anyway, just wondering if you wrote that or at least remembered, it just stuck out to me back then,
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Was his life worth it? He essentially blew out his own candle.
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lmao!!!! I like you Borracho.
I have very strong feelings for you too bro!
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was he sick prior to having the heart failure or did it just happen out of nowhere?
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does Kovacs' family have a case if they sue Muscletech for damage done by its products?
they have pulled acetobolan 1 and 2 off the lawsuit claiming it's been discontinued since 1999..
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it was something along the lines of This guy claiming he might be stronger and he wrote his claims and the writer of musclemag laughed and gave him a reality check and a description of how truly strong Kovacks was .
Around 1999, accompanied with a picture, it was the towards the beginning of the magazine and it was a quarter page tidbit or so, titled Canadian strongest or something.
I wasn't employed at MuscleMag during the latter half of the '90s, my friend. But strangely, I do believe I recall seeing something like this. I used to stop by, see Bob and Johnny, and then grab stacks of missed MMIs, so maybe this is how I saw it.
Greg was super strong, no doubt, but he wasn't near as strong as those MuscleTech pawns made him out to be, truthfully. I would bet what you read was a fabricated letter from some fabricated "strong guy" as a way to mention Kovacs and MuscleTech, ONCE AGAIN.
P.S. Anyone who spends one dollar on anything related to MuscleTech or its offshoots is a fool. Fart powder. ;D
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At either the Arnold or Olympia Expo, Kovacs was asked by Ed Coan and Bill Kazmaier why, if he was so strong, he didn't just enter a big meet and crush all the records. Greg apparently dodged answering with this and that and that was that.
Most haven't the foggiest what kind of behemoths and freaks exist in the upper levels of world-class (and minimal gear) powerlifting. The two men I mention above are great examples. Every bit as awesome as a Gretzky or Jordan or Woods. In many ways, quite a bit more. Drugs or no drugs, Coan's accomplishments as a lifter are the stuff of legend, and Kaz is quite simply a candidate for the title of Strongest Man Who Ever Lived.
These are rarified athletes.
Having said all this, who knows how Kovacs could have done had he focussed his efforts on pure strength training under the tutelage of someone who had a clue.
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At either the Arnold or Olympia Expo, Kovacs was asked by Ed Coan and Bill Kazmaier why, if he was so strong, he didn't just enter a big meet and crush all the records. Greg apparently dodged answering with this and that and that was that.
Most haven't the foggiest what kind of behemoths and freaks exist in the upper levels of world-class (and minimal gear) powerlifting. The two men I mention above are great examples. Every bit as awesome as a Gretzky or Jordan or Woods. In many ways, quite a bit more. Drugs or no drugs, Coan's accomplishments as a lifter are the stuff of legend, and Kaz is quite simply a candidate for the strongest man who ever lived.
These are rarified athletes.
Having said all this, who knows how Kovacs could have done had he focussed his efforts on pure strength training under the tutelage of someone who had a clue.
he was strong ,,but i think u pointed it out 'smith and hammer machines strong...
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At either the Arnold or Olympia Expo, Kovacs was asked by Ed Coan and Bill Kazmaier why, if he was so strong, he didn't just enter a big meet and crush all the records. Greg apparently dodged answering with this and that and that was that.
Most haven't the foggiest what kind of behemoths and freaks exist in the upper levels of world-class (and minimal gear) powerlifting. The two men I mention above are great examples. Every bit as awesome as a Gretzky or Jordan or Woods. In many ways, quite a bit more. Drugs or no drugs, Coan's accomplishments as a lifter are the stuff of legend, and Kaz is quite simply a candidate for the strongest man who ever lived.
These are rarified athletes.
Having said all this, who knows how Kovacs could have done had he focussed his efforts on pure strength training under the tutelage of someone who had a clue.
Exactly what I thought. The dude was such a shit bodybuilder, but always claimed these unreal numbers. Why he never competed always seemed fishy.
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he was strong ,,but i think u pointed it out 'smith and hammer machines strong...
Even the machine poundages were greatly exaggerated. Why else would Muscletech film the same reps from 2 angles to make it seem like he did more reps in that set?
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Even the machine poundages were greatly exaggerated. Why else would Muscletech film the same reps from 2 angles to make it seem like he did more reps in that set?
Yeah i remember those pics. One was a shot of him incline pressing on a smith machine with a shit ton of weight on it, think they claimed like over 600 lbs. Never believed the numbers they claimed he could put up. He was a big dude, just didnt look that strong.
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Even the machine poundages were greatly exaggerated. Why else would Muscletech film the same reps from 2 angles to make it seem like he did more reps in that set?
of course by a bit but I have seen him in person throw up 5 plates on a smith incline like nothing for reps
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Even the machine poundages were greatly exaggerated. Why else would Muscletech film the same reps from 2 angles to make it seem like he did more reps in that set?
also they filmed he loading 6 plates on the bar but if you watch closely he is doing the reps with 5 only. Very tricky editing.
overall yes, he was strong, but for his weight he was nothing special at all.
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also they filmed he loading 6 plates on the bar but if you watch closely he is doing the reps with 5 only. Very tricky editing.
overall yes, he was strong, but for his weight he was nothing special at all.
Yup all the shots I ever saw were with him using a smith machine. Not even close to using freeweights. I used to be a big defender of smiths saying u just are safer on them, but in reality I have almost killed myself a few time because of that perceived safety. One dickhead gym owner didnt even bolt the thing down to the ground or have the cables in the machine!! He said it was not necessary! Fuckwad. I saw one dude doing squats on it and the fucking machine slid backwards and the bar slid down as the dude fell on his ass and almost fucking landed on his neck.
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also they filmed he loading 6 plates on the bar but if you watch closely he is doing the reps with 5 only. Very tricky editing.
overall yes, he was strong, but for his weight he was nothing special at all.
strongest man I have ever seen in the gym, unbelievably strong.
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Yup all the shots I ever saw were with him using a smith machine. Not even close to using freeweights. I used to be a big defender of smiths saying u just are safer on them, but in reality I have almost killed myself a few time because of that perceived safety. One dickhead gym owner didnt even bolt the thing down to the ground or have the cables in the machine!! He said it was not necessary! Fuckwad. I saw one dude doing squats on it and the fucking machine slid backwards and the bar slid down as the dude fell on his ass and almost fucking landed on his neck.
The Smith machine is not only a piece of equipment that fools 'tards into believing they are MUCH stronger than they truly are, but it also boasts a huge list of lifters who have seriously injured themselves using it. Thing's a liability to serious lifters.
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The Smith machine is not only a piece of equipment that fools 'tards into believing they are MUCH stronger than they truly are, but it also boasts a huge list of lifters who have seriously injured themselves using it. Thing's a liability to serious lifters.
see your point but it has good benefits if used correctly and with reasoning weight wise...
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The Smith machine is not only a piece of equipment that fools 'tards into believing they are MUCH stronger than they truly are, but it also boasts a huge list of lifters who have seriously injured themselves using it. Thing's a liability to serious lifters.
Totally. I won't go near it now. Had way too many close calls for it to be even worth it. My best years of gains were when I did Mike Francois' training routine. Powerlifting mixed with BBing. Best gains i ever had and was strong as an ox. I need to go back to that style, i'm a fucking mess now with all my personal problems fucking up my life. Need to take a page out of Ahalo's book and forget about my woman problems and focus on big arms. Halo has much to teach us, he is a guru that doesnt realize his potential. :-\
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strongest man I have ever seen in the gym, unbelievably strong.
For a man of his height and structure & weight Nothing special,
strength & poundage wise.
And as for comparisons to powerlifters at a national level or above
not even close.
But still a big strong man he was.
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For a man of his height and structure & weight Nothing special,
strength & poundage wise.
And as for comparisons to powerlifters at a national level or above
not even close.
But still a big strong man he was.
not even close, come on now, ya maybe the top guys ok but national level guys, no man, you had to have seen him train to say that, he did side laterals with 100lb dumbells with good form. This guy would man handle 4 plates the way you would 1 plate on the bench, trust me he was up there.
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not even close, come on now, ya maybe the top guys ok but national level guys, no man, you had to have seen him train to say that, he did side laterals with 100lb dumbells with good form. This guy would man handle 4 plates the way you would 1 plate on the bench, trust me he was up there.
He was a fucking monster. I saw him at the 98 Arnold Classic expo and he was a freak. Bloated, offseason freak. He had to be over 400 lbs when I saw him. The dude was struggling to breathe just sitting in a chair signing pictures. He had a mini fan on him, was sweating profusely, and was pounding down Wendy's burgers the whole time I saw him. Nice guy though. I have no problem believing he was a strong mofo, but maybe not as strong as Muscletech made him out to be. Everyone exaggerates.
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not even close, come on now, ya maybe the top guys ok but national level guys, no man, you had to have seen him train to say that, he did side laterals with 100lb dumbells with good form. This guy would man handle 4 plates the way you would 1 plate on the bench, trust me he was up there.
back when I lived in London Ont I used to train with a guy who knew Greg pretty well.. this fella was ridiculously strong (but very fat) himself - 405 seated OHP and 545 raw bench. He told me Greg was much stronger than him, which was good enough for me.
muscletech BS aside I'm sure greg would have been impressive at PLing, especially at 15%+ bf and bloated to the gills like most SHW powerlifters
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Totally. I won't go near it now. Had way too many close calls for it to be even worth it. My best years of gains were when I did Mike Francois' training routine. Powerlifting mixed with BBing. Best gains i ever had and was strong as an ox. I need to go back to that style, i'm a fucking mess now with all my personal problems fucking up my life. Need to take a page out of Ahalo's book and forget about my woman problems and focus on big arms. Halo has much to teach us, he is a guru that doesnt realize his potential. :-\
^^
Just FORGET about the problems- if they are women, just AVOID them... even if it means getting a new cell # and not giving it out.
**** Turn your brain into a TRAINING machine **** ;)
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back when I lived in London Ont I used to train with a guy who knew Greg pretty well.. this fella was ridiculously strong (but very fat) himself - 405 seated OHP and 545 raw bench. He told me Greg was much stronger than him, which was good enough for me.
muscletech BS aside I'm sure greg would have been impressive at PLing, especially at 15%+ bf and bloated to the gills like most SHW powerlifters
I live in London, are you talking about Scott or maybe a Russian named Boris.
They both trained with Kovacks, Scott does 550 on the flat bench and Boris can curl 225 for nearly 20 reps, these guys both say they are wimps compared to Kovacks. These guys on here trying to speculate that Kovacks was nothing special make me laugh and do not know what they speak of.
I have done a 500lb raw bench and have done a 700lb deadlift and when I seen Kovacks train I was in utter shock, A monster among men, makes the weights look like they are plastic. Just outrageously insane. 150 for shoulder presses like a warm up, up and down up and down, the speed is like he is moving 30lb dumbells, just ridiculosly strong.
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I live in London, are you talking about Scott or maybe a Russian named Boris.
They both trained with Kovacks, Scott does 550 on the flat bench and Boris can curl 225 for nearly 20 reps, these guys both say they are wimps compared to Kovacks. These guys on here trying to speculate that Kovacks was nothing special make me laugh and do not know what they speak of.
I have done a 500lb raw bench and have done a 700lb deadlift and when I seen Kovacks train I was in utter shock, A monster among men, makes the weights look like they are plastic. Just outrageously insane. 150 for shoulder presses like a warm up, up and down up and down, the speed is like he is moving 30lb dumbells, just ridiculosly strong.
His name's Greg too.. we trained at the galleria goodlife from like 06-08. He tore his pec a few years back and lost a ton of weight but he was ridiculously strong at the time, and a soft 330.. like you I'm not exactly weak, so for someone his size and strength to tell me Kovacs was like him to me strength wise, that's some other-level shit right there.
Scott is Scott abel? I saw him at the other goodlife a few times (I forgot the name of it, the one near the uni I think), big guy
I guess some people feel better about themselves thinking Kovacs could only bench 4 plates on a smith machine.
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No doubt he could shift some big poundages.
Nothing i have read is outstanding considering his physical size and bodyweight.
a 360lb+ man doing what??.
could he do a double bodyweight + bench press,
3 0r 4 times body weight squat.
I have, and have trained with others who have been bigger and heavier who
could also.
I have been training the man thats just got 2nd place at the ukbff super heavies
at 5ft8ins and a training body weight of 110/112 he could bench 500lbs squat 700lbs
deadlift 700lbs ect all on free weights, and other lifts to match.
That's a strong man, pound for pound a lot stronger
than Greg.
No doubt elephants are very big and can also shift some huge poundages.
relative to his bodyweight not great poundage, the poundages on there own are Big weights.
It's not me who doesn't know what they are talking about.
I'm just not easily impressed by big heavy people lifting relatively reasonable weights.
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Derek even younger :(
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No doubt he could shift some big poundages.
Nothing i have read is outstanding considering his physical size and bodyweight.
a 360lb+ man doing what??.
could he do a double bodyweight + bench press,
3 0r 4 times body weight squat.
I have, and have trained with others who have been bigger and heavier who
could also.
I have been training the man thats just got 2nd place at the ukbff super heavies
at 5ft8ins and a training body weight of 110/112 he could bench 500lbs squat 700lbs
deadlift 700lbs ect all on free weights, and other lifts to match.
That's a strong man, pound for pound a lot stronger
than Greg.
No doubt elephants are very big and can also shift some huge poundages.
relative to his bodyweight not great poundage, the poundages on there own are Big weights.
It's not me who doesn't know what they are talking about.
I'm just not easily impressed by big heavy people lifting relatively reasonable weights.
Well size doesn't always equal strength, so your point is worthless about bodyweight...
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for people OVER 30, they'll look at Kovacs & DA and say "Wow, it's time I cut back"
For people UNDER 30, they'll look at Kovacs & DA and SOME of them will say "I'll stop by the time I'm 35 and recover just fine"
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for people OVER 30, they'll look at Kovacs & DA and say "Wow, it's time I cut back"
For people UNDER 30, they'll look at Kovacs & DA and SOME of them will say "I'll stop by the time I'm 35 and recover just fine"
:D
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His name's Greg too.. we trained at the galleria goodlife from like 06-08. He tore his pec a few years back and lost a ton of weight but he was ridiculously strong at the time, and a soft 330.. like you I'm not exactly weak, so for someone his size and strength to tell me Kovacs was like him to me strength wise, that's some other-level shit right there.
Scott is Scott abel? I saw him at the other goodlife a few times (I forgot the name of it, the one near the uni I think), big guy
I guess some people feel better about themselves thinking Kovacs could only bench 4 plates on a smith machine.
Now, there's a name I haven't thought of for 20 years+. Dude got tossed out of my old gym for trying to fight/ being a total dick.
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for people OVER 30, they'll look at Kovacs & DA and say "Wow, it's time I cut back"
For people UNDER 30, they'll look at Kovacs & DA and SOME of them will say "I'll stop by the time I'm 35 and recover just fine"
This sums up steroid use perfectly. Under 30, "meehh why worry im not an old man who needs to worry about lame shit like health."
Over 30, "fuck me, im as old or older than that dude and he just died!. Time to slow the fuck down here"
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His name's Greg too.. we trained at the galleria goodlife from like 06-08. He tore his pec a few years back and lost a ton of weight but he was ridiculously strong at the time, and a soft 330.. like you I'm not exactly weak, so for someone his size and strength to tell me Kovacs was like him to me strength wise, that's some other-level shit right there.
Scott is Scott abel? I saw him at the other goodlife a few times (I forgot the name of it, the one near the uni I think), big guy
I guess some people feel better about themselves thinking Kovacs could only bench 4 plates on a smith machine.
Seen Scott Able train too, pretty big dude but no I meant Scott Milne (SP?)
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No doubt he could shift some big poundages.
Nothing i have read is outstanding considering his physical size and bodyweight.
a 360lb+ man doing what??.
could he do a double bodyweight + bench press,
3 0r 4 times body weight squat.
I have, and have trained with others who have been bigger and heavier who
could also.
I have been training the man thats just got 2nd place at the ukbff super heavies
at 5ft8ins and a training body weight of 110/112 he could bench 500lbs squat 700lbs
deadlift 700lbs ect all on free weights, and other lifts to match.
That's a strong man, pound for pound a lot stronger
than Greg.
No doubt elephants are very big and can also shift some huge poundages.
relative to his bodyweight not great poundage, the poundages on there own are Big weights.
It's not me who doesn't know what they are talking about.
I'm just not easily impressed by big heavy people lifting relatively reasonable weights.
There is nothing relatively easy about any weight Kovacks did, if you think that then you do not know what you are talking about. He could have easily smashed all record of all time from anyone, I know that for a fact considering he only trained with hammer strength yet still kills 4 plate on the bench for 25 reps.
There is nothing average about his lifts, he is in the same class as the worlds best, of course he is no BILL K or ED C as Fortress pointed out, those guys are legends and were not lazy, but at his prime there was only a few men living who were stronger certainly less then 10 men.
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The stories about his insecurity and health issues are revealing. I remember meeting him and he was a nice dude, but seemed to not want to be there at all. I now see how insecure he was and I know a lot of dudes can relate. He was a freak, but was still worried that he would get mocked and not be accepted. I kind of feel bad for the dude now. I didn't know him at all personally, but all the stories about him seem to paint a picture of a dude who was freakishly strong and big, but had almost no self-esteem. He hid behind his hugeness. A lot of guys do this. Anyway you cut it, dying at 44 from heart failure is not a good thing. I had actually not thought about Kovac at all for years until i saw this thread. then i remembered meeting him and actually feel bad that he died the way he did.
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The stories about his insecurity and health issues are revealing. I remember meeting him and he was a nice dude, but seemed to not want to be there at all. I now see how insecure he was and I know a lot of dudes can relate. He was a freak, but was still worried that he would get mocked and not be accepted. I kind of feel bad for the dude now. I didn't know him at all personally, but all the stories about him seem to paint a picture of a dude who was freakishly strong and big, but had almost no self-esteem. He hid behind his hugeness. A lot of guys do this. Anyway you cut it, dying at 44 from heart failure is not a good thing. I had actually not thought about Kovac at all for years until i saw this thread. then i remembered meeting him and actually feel bad that he died the way he did.
What stories
And where did you hear them
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There is nothing relatively easy about any weight Kovacks did, if you think that then you do not know what you are talking about. He could have easily smashed all record of all time from anyone, I know that for a fact considering he only trained with hammer strength yet still kills 4 plate on the bench for 25 reps.
There is nothing average about his lifts, he is in the same class as the worlds best, of course he is no BILL K or ED C as Fortress pointed out, those guys are legends and were not lazy, but at his prime there was only a few men living who were stronger certainly less then 10 men.
opinion's vary.... and you are not the only person with one.
It doesn't make yours or mine the right one.. just opinion's
Also you are not the only person to have handled heavy weights or been around other extremely strong people
as in Bona Fide world champions in Powerlifting, olympic lifting and strongman who have.
Also he never choose to compete in a strength based sport.
no doubt he could shift some heavy poundage at 350lbs.+ i should hope so.
oh And some of them are still alive into there 60's plus and competing.
As for Greg he is strongest man in the graveyard at a very early age..sadly.
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still kills 4 plate on the bench for 25 reps.
^
damn 405 x 25
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The stories about his insecurity and health issues are revealing. I remember meeting him and he was a nice dude, but seemed to not want to be there at all. I now see how insecure he was and I know a lot of dudes can relate. He was a freak, but was still worried that he would get mocked and not be accepted. I kind of feel bad for the dude now. I didn't know him at all personally, but all the stories about him seem to paint a picture of a dude who was freakishly strong and big, but had almost no self-esteem. He hid behind his hugeness. A lot of guys do this. Anyway you cut it, dying at 44 from heart failure is not a good thing. I had actually not thought about Kovac at all for years until i saw this thread. then i remembered meeting him and actually feel bad that he died the way he did.
I never met him, but that was my impression as well - insecurity and shyness. Good post.
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opinion's vary.... and you are not the only person with one.
It doesn't make yours or mine the right one.. just opinion's
Also you are not the only person to have handled heavy weights or been around other extremely strong people
as in Bona Fide world champions in Powerlifting, olympic lifting and strongman who have.
Also he never choose to compete in a strength based sport.
no doubt he could shift some heavy poundage at 350lbs.+ i should hope so.
oh And some of them are still alive into there 60's plus and competing.
As for Greg he is strongest man in the graveyard at a very early age..sadly.
I understand your perspective and certainly respect your opinion and no you are not wrong in what you say cause you are simply not impressed but just on the comparison to the average national level power lifter sounds a little silly, that's all. He would utterly destroy 99% of all national level competitors, just not a few of the top guys, he certainly dose not deserve to be compared to the average national competitor, that`s it, that is all that bothered me about your perceptive, nothing more.
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still kills 4 plate on the bench for 25 reps.
^
damn 405 x 25
Yes in his prime he could probably get even more reps out then that even, I seen him also do 3 plates and a 25 for like 20+ reps on the incline free weights
There was a story circulating the local gyms here (we live in the same area) it goes like this. when he was 19 years old he went to see a powerlifting meet, The winner benched 400 and something for a single rep and kovacks was in the audiance, then at the end of the meet he got up and did what the guy that won did for over 20 reps.
Do not know how much truth to this story there is but it was circulating pretty heavy back in the 90`s.
Another story was he got a job as a correction officer and he couldn`t start right away cause the uniforms could not fit, they had to request the uniforms be custom made, I think even the 4xl shirts they had were way to small. The man`s sheer dimensions were mind boggling.
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What stories
And where did you hear them
On this forum there are a few. And the stories Nasser told in an interview. All second hand mind you, but they are all similar. Just a big nice dude that had insecurity issues. and drug issues.
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Does anyone know if Kovacs had any interaction with VooDoo Vince?
(http://fakeposters.com.s3.amazonaws.com/results/2013/12/11/wen2ea6be6.jpg)
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Probably aspartame.
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Greg was not a happy person. I do not know why.
Someone wrote earlier about him coming across as very insecure and shy. This is 100 percent accurate.
Those that have experienced national level/pro level contest prep know the dark place in your mind it often takes you. Some people worse than others. Greg had a hard time dealing with contest prep/the demons that come out when you are locking yourself in a hotel room sticking yourself with needles over and over and over again. Eventually, he spent most of his preps in a k-hole.
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Greg was monstrously strong, no doubt, but there can be a big difference between gym/bodybuilding strong, and meet strong. For instance, what could Greg squat? Just because someone can leg press 9,000 plates doesn't mean "squat" when it comes to free-bar squatting. And Kovacs could bent-row 4-500 pounds, sure, but ... again, this doesn't mean he could stand (deadlift) with world-class numbers.
If I had to guess, I'd say squats would have been his Achilles heel, if he had chosen to compete as a powerlifter. At the very least, the movement would have likely been the one to require the most attention and specific focus.
As with many large and accomplished bodybuilders, Greg was super strong on many machine and isolation-type exercises. Elite powerlifters are (working as) whole-body strong and have had years to train their bodies to operate as a single powerful entity. A machine that explodes as a precise and unified weapon.
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opinion's vary.... and you are not the only person with one.
It doesn't make yours or mine the right one.. just opinion's
Also you are not the only person to have handled heavy weights or been around other extremely strong people
as in Bona Fide world champions in Powerlifting, olympic lifting and strongman who have.
Also he never choose to compete in a strength based sport.
no doubt he could shift some heavy poundage at 350lbs.+ i should hope so.
oh And some of them are still alive into there 60's plus and competing.
As for Greg he is strongest man in the graveyard at a very early age..sadly.
And your point is what? No one is claiming that Kovacs competed in any strength events, so to keep harping on that is ridiculous.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence backing the premise that Kovacs was inordinately strong.
But, seriously, the man is gone. He won't be making any more claims that you disagree with.
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And your point is what? No one is claiming that Kovacs competed in any strength events, so to keep harping on that is ridiculous.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence backing the premise that Kovacs was inordinately strong.
But, seriously, the man is gone. He won't be making any more claims that you disagree with.
If you read and understood my post you wouldn't have to ask what is my point.
Sure he was a very big & strong man,. As some one who has been fortunate enough to know and train with other Big & very strong men who did compete and not make claims that they wouldn't or couldn't back up, I am just not that impressed by him.
And again you would seriously expect a 350/400Lbs man full of gear and growth to be exceptionally strong.
I Didn't disagree with any of his claims. Just not overly impressed all things considered.
I hope that is clear enough for you.
And yes sadly at a very young age he has Gone, & none of us would of wanted that.
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Greg was monstrously strong, no doubt, but there can be a big difference between gym/bodybuilding strong, and meet strong. For instance, what could Greg squat? Just because someone can leg press 9,000 plates doesn't mean "squat" when it comes to free-bar squatting. And Kovacs could bent-row 4-500 pounds, sure, but ... again, this doesn't mean he could stand (deadlift) with world-class numbers.
If I had to guess, I'd say squats would have been his Achilles heel, if he had chosen to compete as a powerlifter. At the very least, the movement would have likely been the one to require the most attention and specific focus.
As with many large and accomplished bodybuilders, Greg was super strong on many machine and isolation-type exercises. Elite powerlifters are (working as) whole-body strong and have had years to train their bodies to operate as a single powerful entity. A machine that explodes as a precise and unified weapon.
Very Good post Fortress. well said.
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You're not "overly impressed". Duly noted.
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Does anyone know if Kovacs had any interaction with VooDoo Vince?
(http://fakeposters.com.s3.amazonaws.com/results/2013/12/11/wen2ea6be6.jpg)
;D ;D ;D :D ;)
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From june this year:
(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/389313_10151469567117503_359514247_n.jpg)
Oh wow, he did not look healthy at all :-\
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Might die at 55 who knows....
I remember when art died, it was from heart failure and he wasn't even 40, think mid to late 30's :-\ had a heart attack and fell into the pool....that was the story I got
Nice guy too, met him through a friend of mine and was always willing to help , but never looked healthy one bit, always heavy breathing, out of breath, purple skin , lots of signs
He made it to 55. This is him today (age 56):
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Damn, Greg really aged.
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Damn, Greg really aged.
I've always said they shared a resemblance!
Same name too!
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Seen Scott Able train too, pretty big dude but no I meant Scott Milne (SP?)
wouldnt be scott milne from that discription- ive never seen him look like he could be considered 'fat' :D
they guy walks around at 330 and 8% ffs. next to kovacs prolly the next 'largest' human i have seen. helluva nice guy to. very soft spoken.
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wouldnt be scott milne from that discription- ive never seen him look like he could be considered 'fat' :D
they guy walks around at 330 and 8% ffs. next to kovacs prolly the next 'largest' human i have seen. helluva nice guy to. very soft spoken.
ya never seen him fat so you are right, 330 with abs he was enormous, I met him when I was 16 years old and just turned 32 so 16 years ago, don't know how old he was then, maybe 21 or 22 but he was 335 and was benching 5 plates per side for 4 reps if I remember correctly. Weird how he never really got any bigger since then but he did improve on proportions and conditioning. Man was so big but Kovacks was noticeably bigger when they stood beside each other.
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i remember he walked off the stage before his routine was over at the 2004 arnold classic
he finished last and i think he knew he would
E
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i remember he walked off the stage before his routine was over at the 2004 arnold classic
he finished last and i think he knew he would
E
maybe he had to take a huge dump?
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maybe he had to take a huge dump?
Probably not the case. Because you were not there to "take a huge dump" on.
Don't worry, though, there are doubtless other huge dumpers out there for you to get shit-faced with.
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Man that sucks. :'( I didn't even know. :'( :'( :'( :'( How the hell could this happen? Life is too short...
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Man that sucks. :'( I didn't even know. :'( :'( :'( :'( How the hell could this happen? Life is too short...
How could it happen? A boatload of gear, holding 300+ lbs year-round, moonface, BP that registered on the Richter Scale? It's a mystery.
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I think it was more like 400 plus+ off season. Didn't he compete at 359 or something? :-X I know we all saw it coming but still. :-\ At least he lived longer than a lot of others. Which is sad when you think about it. :-[ DA for one. And MOMO to name but a few. As well as all the young actors dropping like flies. Heath Ledger, River Phoenix ect...
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greg kovacs is somewhere laughing at all you bitches
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10339705_10205290011352749_4514349098672679488_n.jpg?oh=2259d7555366bbd39b6cbf77bcdd1bd5&oe=55448719&__gda__=1429840557_ab5d9878f76de76638a12b4e5fba1562)
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Training with heavy weights ruins you from the inside out.
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I think it was more like 400 plus+ off season. Didn't he compete at 359 or something? :-X I know we all saw it coming but still. :-\ At least he lived longer than a lot of others. Which is sad when you think about it. :-[ DA for one. And MOMO to name but a few. As well as all the young actors dropping like flies. Heath Ledger, River Phoenix ect...
All too often, even those bodybuilders who don't die at a young age derail their careers by falling into destructive relationships.
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greg kovacs is somewhere laughing at all you bitches
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10339705_10205290011352749_4514349098672679488_n.jpg?oh=2259d7555366bbd39b6cbf77bcdd1bd5&oe=55448719&__gda__=1429840557_ab5d9878f76de76638a12b4e5fba1562)
Greg Kovacs pulled the finest pussy that ever walked this earth! That period of time... when MMI was at it's "pinnacle" had the most hottest women that I ever saw. It's probably just nostalgia for me though, maybe? But yeah, he's laughing for damn sure. lol :)
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Greg Kovacs pulled the finest pussy that ever walked this earth! That period of time... when MMI was at it's "pinnacle" had the most hottest women that I ever saw. It's probably just nostalgia for me though, maybe? But yeah, he's laughing for damn sure. lol :)
During the era you reference, I was an editor at MMI. Trust me, Greg was NOT pulling any pussy, anywhere. He had a nagging and hugely annoying wife who tagged along everywhere he went, desperately attempting to fan him off well enough to keep the lingering stroke and heart attack at bay.
I didn't dislike Greg. Actually, I am fairly neutral about my feelings about the man. He was just ... there.
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During the era you reference, I was an editor at MMI. Trust me, Greg was NOT pulling any pussy, anywhere. He had a nagging and hugely annoying wife who tagged along everywhere he went, desperately attempting to fan him off well enough to keep the lingering stroke and heart attack at bay.
I didn't dislike Greg. Actually, I am fairly neutral about my feelings about the man. He was just ... there.
I realize that he wasn't literally "pulling" any pussy. After all, he was married. But still, in the photo shoots... he had those women hanging off of every limb. I know it's all just a fantasy world but still. The bottom line is that he's the one in those photo shoots... not us :'(
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still kills 4 plate on the bench for 25 reps.
^
damn 405 x 25
that's Heath-worthy numbers.
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All too often, even those bodybuilders who don't die at a young age derail their careers by falling into destructive relationships.
Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.
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His wife at the time stated that she used to literally wipe his ass after shitting, cause he couldnt reach.
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Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.
We call it Employment Services down here. If you've been made redundant, here is a possible solution:
http://jobs.careerone.com.au/l-mackay,-qld.aspx
Good luck in your job search.
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His wife at the time stated that she used to literally wipe his ass after shitting, cause he couldnt reach.
Kovacs was a great man. We would have all been honored
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It would take 3.2 of Kai Green towels to wipe Kovacs ass after he took a Lee Priest type duke...
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I realize that he wasn't literally "pulling" any pussy. After all, he was married. But still, in the photo shoots... he had those women hanging off of every limb. I know it's all just a fantasy world but still. The bottom line is that he's the one in those photo shoots... not us :'(
I was at those shoots ... ;)
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Yeah, that must have been a site to see. Amy Lynn, Trish Stratus, Amy Fhadali, ect... Gee I can't remember all the names... but those girls in that era were my favorite. And damn those covers! You weren't accused of being gay I tell ya! People thought you were buying a straight man's porno. And the girls were in shape.... but not "she male" like how the girls are feminine in Oxygen... which is a spin off ass we all know.
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Yeah, that must have been a site to see. Amy Lynn, Trish Stratus, Amy Fhadali, ect... Gee I can't remember all the names... but those girls in that era were my favorite. And damn those covers! You weren't accused of being gay I tell ya! People thought you were buying a straight man's porno. And the girls were in shape.... but not "she male" like how the girls are feminine in Oxygen... which is a spin off ass we all know.
I agree. Some of those girls were SMOKIN'. I'd often find my tongue hanging out. Truth. It was actually painful. The Fuck-O-Drive would get stuck at full throttle.
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"The Strongest Bodybuilder Alive"
I'm thinking
Arnold for 60's & 70's
Sigmarsson for 80's
90's - don't know? Kovacs bragged lifts doesn't seem to be found in his videos.
Coleman for 00's
10's - don't know?
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In 2014, there are those who Hammer Bench Press for 5 plates per side, and those who don't.
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Got to give it to the man he may have accomplished what millions have wanted to at time to be the biggest bodybuilder ever. Just a matter of time before him and zyzz start making youtube videos from heaven
dont put zyzz in the same catagory. the guys had such weak genetics he cuoldnt even make it past 23
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Yeah, that must have been a site to see. Amy Lynn, Trish Stratus, Amy Fhadali, ect... Gee I can't remember all the names... but those girls in that era were my favorite. And damn those covers! You weren't accused of being gay I tell ya! People thought you were buying a straight man's porno. And the girls were in shape.... but not "she male" like how the girls are feminine in Oxygen... which is a spin off ass we all know.
That pic got me through some tough times ;D
(http://thecrowesnestri.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/trish-2.jpg)
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That pic got me through some tough times ;D
(http://thecrowesnestri.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/trish-2.jpg)
I remember that shot well. It was part of a glutes special pull out. It had all the hottest fitness whores and their sweet, bleached a-holes in provocative poses. Many messy children were sacrificed in honour of their pert buttocks........hhhhhhhu uuunnnnnggggggg / Corn!
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I remember that shot well. It was part of a glutes special pull out. It had all the hottest fitness whores and their sweet, bleached a-holes in provocative poses. Many messy children were sacrificed in honour of their pert buttocks........hhhhhhhu uuunnnnnggggggg / Corn!
LOL
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Yeah, that must have been a site to see. Amy Lynn, Trish Stratus, Amy Fhadali, ect... Gee I can't remember all the names... but those girls in that era were my favorite. And damn those covers! You weren't accused of being gay I tell ya! People thought you were buying a straight man's porno. And the girls were in shape.... but not "she male" like how the girls are feminine in Oxygen... which is a spin off ass we all know.
Great points made here. The mags have gone away from that and look where it got them... And fuck the covers of today, all photohop, it's rediculous and often gay looking.
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I also shamed myself many times to somewhat low-resolution photos of Trish Stratus.
She still looks great:
https://www.google.com/search?q=trish+stratus+2014&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x0S3VJBG7-WwBNPJgMgF&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1180&bih=788
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In 2014, there are those who Hammer Bench Press for 5 plates per side, and those who don't.
I've heard that Gary Jones the inventor of Hammer Strength presented Phil Heath with his very own incline Hammer Press for his home after winning his last Mr. Olympia. Jones made a couple of simple alterations to the machine before giving it to Mr. Heath. He lowered the seat 5 inches and brought in the width of the machine a whole foot(to take into account how narrow Phil Heath is)...
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That pic got me through some tough times ;D
(http://thecrowesnestri.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/trish-2.jpg)
If that's real, that's very impressive! Bay likey!
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If that's real, that's very impressive! Bay likey!
:o
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If that's real, that's very impressive! Bay likey!
Are you sure you quoted the correct picture?
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Are you sure you quoted the correct picture?
Greg was good schmoebait too, but he never had any good glute pics... Not his best bodypart. :(
For what it is worth, according to the grapevine, he never gave himself to the dark side and put out. Lord knows many tried with him. ;D
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Greg was good schmoebait too, but he never had any good glute pics... Not his best bodypart. :(
For what it is worth, according to the grapevine, he never gave himself to the dark side and put out. Lord knows many tried with him. ;D
Who has gone to the darkside? No homo.
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At either the Arnold or Olympia Expo, Kovacs was asked by Ed Coan and Bill Kazmaier why, if he was so strong, he didn't just enter a big meet and crush all the records. Greg apparently dodged answering with this and that and that was that.
Most haven't the foggiest what kind of behemoths and freaks exist in the upper levels of world-class (and minimal gear) powerlifting. The two men I mention above are great examples. Every bit as awesome as a Gretzky or Jordan or Woods. In many ways, quite a bit more. Drugs or no drugs, Coan's accomplishments as a lifter are the stuff of legend, and Kaz is quite simply a candidate for the title of Strongest Man Who Ever Lived.
These are rarified athletes.
Having said all this, who knows how Kovacs could have done had he focussed his efforts on pure strength training under the tutelage of someone who had a clue.
great post
Kovacs was strong but not for his bodyweight.
you can NOT compare kovacs to guys like Coan and Kaz- these guys are in another universe.
Kovacs was only strong on smith machine movements
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Kovacs was doing 4 plates on the incline smith machine, which is actually weak for a man his size.
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If that's real, that's very impressive! Bay likey!
Only Trish could elicit a comment like that from Bay... God bless her!
By fat the best thing to ever come out of Canada lol
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At either the Arnold or Olympia Expo, Kovacs was asked by Ed Coan and Bill Kazmaier why, if he was so strong, he didn't just enter a big meet and crush all the records. Greg apparently dodged answering with this and that and that was that.
Most haven't the foggiest what kind of behemoths and freaks exist in the upper levels of world-class (and minimal gear) powerlifting. The two men I mention above are great examples. Every bit as awesome as a Gretzky or Jordan or Woods. In many ways, quite a bit more. Drugs or no drugs, Coan's accomplishments as a lifter are the stuff of legend, and Kaz is quite simply a candidate for the title of Strongest Man Who Ever Lived.
These are rarified athletes.
X2. Well said.
No doubt kovacks moved some poundage.
When you take his Bodyweight into consideration LB for Lb nowt impressive.
Completely In a Different League Kaz & coan. Strength Giants.
Having said all this, who knows how Kovacs could have done had he focussed his efforts on pure strength training under the tutelage of someone who had a clue.