Author Topic: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?  (Read 13425 times)

pellius

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2009, 05:36:26 PM »
Luke, I'm a huge Mentzer and A. Jones fan. I believe their general principles apply to everybody though as with everything results may vary. It's true that everybody is unique and different but as a species we function in the exact same way. We need oxygen, carbohydrates, protein, have lungs, kidneys, liver... that all operate in the same way. If that wasn't the case then medical science could not exist. If you have a bacterial infection antibiotics will combat it. The exact type of antibiotic will vary. For instance, I'm allergic to pennicillin (sp?). So the specifics vary (what type of antibiotic) but the general principle (using an antibiotic) applies to everybody.

So I think Mentzer erred in his one size fits all. A. Jones use to say that below a certain threshold of intensity exercise will do little or nothing in stimulating size and strength. But exactly how much intensity? Positive failure? Static holds? Negative failure? All the time for every workout? A.J. also use to say that over training, beyond what is optimal, is wasted effort at best and counter productive at worse. And I subscribe to that. To expend time, energy and effort to actually halt or hinder progress is the worse thing a trainee can do. But how much is too much and how do you know? Can you compare recovery ability at 20 than at 50? I think there's a lot of fine tuning involved within each individual that seems to have been overlooked.

You say you do a full body workout. If you don't mind, I'd be very interested in reading what a typical workout is like, how long it takes, and how often it is done.

The Luke

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2009, 10:21:33 AM »
You say you do a full body workout. If you don't mind, I'd be very interested in reading what a typical workout is like, how long it takes, and how often it is done.

The fine tuning of HIT is probably the very hardest part.


I was introduced to HIT via the writings of Mike Mentzer, and the logic of it really appealed to me... but Mentzer never allowed for the idea that his theory might not be totally inclusive of all the factors involved. Arthur Jones took a more practical/empirical approach, which is probably best, because as any scientist will tell you: experiment is the final arbiter of reality.

I started HIT at 16 (after a three year plateau on very high volume training) and made frighteningly fast progress (15 lbs in six months).

Through my twenties I continued cutting back and cutting back till I was literally training only three or four sets every three days:
Day  1 -Chest (4 sets)
Day  4 -Delts and Triceps (4 sets)
Day  7 -Back (4 sets)
Day 10 -Biceps (3 sets)
Day 13 -Quads (4 sets)
Day 16 -Calves and Hams (4 sets)
...with two full days rest after each workout, I was only training bodyparts twice a month and the muscle soreness was absolutely incapacitating. I was slowly plateauing again, but I had reached what was considered the natural limit; FFMI (Fat Free Muscle Index) so I pretty much resigned myself to no more progress.

Then I considered trying Arthur Jones' approach... and that worked wonders: full body workouts; NO muscle soreness; and lots of supposedly impossible progress.

In fact it worked so well I had to cut back again and again to keep making progress.

Below is a routine I used to do 3 times a week, but progress necessitated cutting that back so now I'm only training one and a half times a week.

Here's my routine:
(warm-up) Bench Press: 2 sets x 10 reps
1 set -Bench Press
1 set -Dumbbell Flyes

1 set -Narrow-grip Dips
1 set -Close-grip EZ-bar Bench Press

1 set -EZ-bar Bent-over Rows
1 set -Close-grip lat-pulldowns

1 set -Bicep curls
1 set -Stirrup-grip Cable Curls

(warm-up) Barbell Squats: 1 set x 5 reps
1 set -Barbell Squats
1 set -Barbell Deadlifts
...this last double set somehow eliminates muscle soreness and boosts recovery by over-stressing the hip-flexors. Don't know why it works, but it really works.

...so three light warm up sets altogether; 10 work sets total and about 45 mins per workout. No direct trap work, no direct ab work; no direct forearm work; no direct hamstring work; no direct delt work; no direct calf work.

I don't bother with rep cadence but I do ensure I'm not throwing or dropping the weight (no ballistic reps). I don't do any forced-reps; negatives or drop sets... instead I just trained myself to put more real effort into my sets, meaning I usually faint and/or puke at the end of every workout.


Of course, this type of training is pretty tough... I train Monday and Friday one week, and only train Wednesday the next week.

Unusual...? Yes. Unorthodox...? Yes. Productive...? Fuck yeah!

When I started this type of very reduced training (a year ago), I usually managed 225 lbs x 14 reps on the bench... now I'm pushing 225 lbs x 20-22 reps... my squat is up over three plates (full depth; ass to the grass with a stop at the bottom) and my deadlift is up to 450 lbs (ten slow reps with a stop an inch off the ground on each rep and a properly arched back).

Okay, I like chocolate and don't do enough cardio... okay, I'm 20-23% bf... but I'm 220 lbs at 5'5'', and when I trim down for summer expeditions I'm usually a really solid (hint of abs) 195 lbs.

Hope this helps pellius.


The Luke 

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2009, 10:57:27 AM »

Okay, I like chocolate and don't do enough cardio... okay, I'm 20-23% bf... but I'm 220 lbs at 5'5'', and when I trim down for summer expeditions I'm usually a really solid (hint of abs) 195 lbs.


The Luke 



Geez...I like to see your photo... sounds like a short fat stocky guy to me... just as I mentioned yesterday. Your routine will result in no muscle hypertrophy whatsoever.

The Luke

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2009, 11:26:13 AM »
Geez...I like to see your photo... sounds like a short fat stocky guy to me... just as I mentioned yesterday. Your routine will result in no muscle hypertrophy whatsoever.

My photo has been published in several newspapers (both in America and Ireland), judge for yourself.

If my routine produces no hypertrophy, I guess my contractile fat must be doing those lifts.



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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2009, 12:12:00 PM »
I did a HIT workout yesterday.   each rep was 6-8 seconds, very painful on the last few reps on sets to failure.   I did 2-3 sets to failure for each muscle.  biceps, triceps, delts, traps in that workout.   I'm sore.

thats the point about HIT. 99% of people dont understand it and need to read every word written again.

you dont "just do a HIT workout". And you dont just apply HIT.

Its a process that needs to be applied over weeks, and to the extreme, and in balance with the maximal effort.

Also, it wont work over longer durations, or just thrown in every now and then.

Mike took what science was available about muscle growth and turned it into training.

i dont think anyone had done that before, and the only one since has been professor Laura.

Mike was misunderstood because, mostly, BB arent your smartest crowd and his principles could only be understood by a small portion of the population. Thats the major reason why HIT is poo poo'd.

People think they are doing what mike says and when they dont see gains, they cry foul when in reality they arent doing what mike says- instread they are making up their own interpretation of what mike said.

HIT, combined with periods of sub maximal training is what makes olympic champs and grows muscle. its the only scientifically proven approach.

other people grow because they stumble onto some mix of HIT by chance. Arnold himself grew because of that..oh, and drugs..they help lots.


disco_stu

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2009, 12:20:26 PM »
luke,

my take would be that you broke the plateau by challenging your brain again.

alot of people think that mixing it up regularly is challenging the brain, but it is not. it confuses it and recruits more neurons than is required, and the brain never adapts to the scheme.

the idea is to train the brain to initially recruit loads of muscle, then recruit them efficiently, then maximally..and this takes weeks to a few months.

then the brain starts cutting back on that recruitment to conserve energy to ensure enough is left for fight or flight. when this happens people recognise it as a plateau.

So then its time to change. BUT, drastic change is counterproductvie. What is needed is only slight change. that might be a slightly differnt rep scheme, or different work load weights to get higher reps..but the point is that it also needs to be done for several weeks.

and then over and over.

drastic changes can induce results, but the more frequent those changes are, the better the brain recognises them and works against you.

So i would bet my left nut that its not the magic routine, rather the change of approach.


pellius

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2009, 01:03:46 PM »
Thanks Luke! You sound like you train alone. If so, how do incorporate intensity variables like forced reps/negatives. What kind of intensity variables do you use?

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2009, 03:56:45 PM »
So i would bet my left nut that its not the magic routine, rather the change of approach.

...I know what you are talking about, but that's not what's responsible for my improvements. I made those initial gains almost 15 years ago. Since then I've basically been doing the very same routine; same exercises; same sets; same exercise order.

It's not a case of sudden gains from a drastic change in routine. I've only changed my routine twice in the last 14 years or so.

It might sound pithy to someone who hasn't tried proper HIT, but having tried EVERY routine... I can honestly say HIT is the most efficient training system: no guess work; no plateaus.

Thanks Luke! You sound like you train alone. If so, how do incorporate intensity variables like forced reps/negatives. What kind of intensity variables do you use?

I don't use any extra intensity techniques... they aren't really necessary.

It's generally only over-trained people who believe in these techniques... I push so hard on my exercises that negatives or forced reps are redundant: if I did negatives on bench (for example) I wouldn't get any reps at all on my dumbbell flyes.

Trainees who are over-trained can only manage sub-maximal efforts, so they think such techniques actually work... I push till the point of SYSTEMIC failure (fainting/puking) because I'm always rested enough to be capable of such effort. I used to believe negatives/forced reps were possible on every exercise except squats and deads... now I feel the same way about bench and even bicep curls.

It's hard to explain... HIT is just so different.

 
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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2009, 04:09:26 PM »
i was stronger this week on every exercise.  :)

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2009, 04:10:52 PM »
i was stronger this week on every exercise.  :)
even on the buttblaster?

PJim

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Re: Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2009, 08:06:01 PM »
i was stronger this week on every exercise.  :)

Keep a journal, I've been doing so for the past few years with no plateauing :)