From an Angry Soldier

[War-Horse]

Oh I'm fairly certain that something like this has happened.

All those weekend warriors that signed up to the military to get a break on the cost of education are especially part of this.  They're older with families.

They got their education plus 3 or 4 extended tours of duty plus psychological damage, bodily harm and indeed death.

It's not that these things don't happen in a time of war, they do.

But that goes to the heart of the matter:  what are we fighting for?

Let's sit back with cocktail or beer and cheer on the job the troops are doing.

And let's put down those fucking anti-war whiners.  It's over.  Like the 'stolen' 2000 presidential election.  It's over.....get over it.

In the last two weeks, 24 US soldiers have been killed in Bush's foreign wars.





In a related note, I'm certainly glad that President Bush was able to celebrate the joyous black tie wedding of his daughter.

It must have been a hell of a party.

Now youre getting it.    We should be happy when the troops die because its their choice to serve us.  So why should we pointing out the in justices when we can be like Coach and other neo-cons?

From now on we should clap and have a beer when these soldiers die in vain......because thats their job....

[War-Horse]

From now on its one beer for every soldier killed!!!   Fvckin A!!!!   Party time...24, You say? 

[ToxicAvenger]

Did he not decide to enlist?  Did he not take an oath to put himself in harms way? 

poor people with no other choice join the army...oath my ass

[Decker]

From now on its one beer for every soldier killed!!!   Fvckin A!!!!   Party time...24, You say? 

Where're are those WMDs?


Bush's Iraq WMDs joke backfires
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3570845.stm

That pic is from a black tie affair where Bush put on his "Where are the WMDs" routine where he looked under Oval Office furniture for the missing weapons.


Remember military america, your Commander and Chief thinks your reason for dying and fighting is one big fucking joke!

[Dos Equis]

Yes, this four-year-old joke was in poor taste. 

You still complaining about the 2000 election? 

[Decker]

Yes, this four-year-old joke was in poor taste. 

You still complaining about the 2000 election? 

Just commenting Beach Bum.

I see you've gotten over the destruction of our democracy.  Good for you!  As long as your guy won, hey?

Here's to your next tax cut!

Democracies are for rabble anyways.

[Dos Equis]

Just commenting Beach Bum.

I see you've gotten over the destruction of our democracy.  Good for you!  As long as your guy won, hey?

Here's to your next tax cut!

Democracies are for rabble anyways.

 Our democracy hasn't been destroyed.  I didn't agree with the U.S. Supreme Court's decision and I think the Florida Supreme Court got it right, but what that entire situation showed was our democracy is in great shape.  In a number of countries there were have been tanks in the streets.  Instead, whether you agree with the outcome or not, we had the Florida AG make a decision, two courts make decisions, and there was an orderly change of the guard.  The system worked. 

Regarding my next tax cut, depends on which guy gets the job. 

[Decker]

Look at Dick Go!  Another fun Black tie event.  Those elites sure know how to party!  I bet that's how it was at the Bush Wedding this past weekend.  Don't you think?

"I'm here because my dad died in Iraq," said 10-year-old Dakota Givens, in a circle of 8- to 12 year-olds. "He was in his tank … and they went in some water. The gun broke and hit his door so he couldn't get out and he drowned."

"My dad was killed in Iraq," announced Taylor Heldt, another 10-year-old, who spoke matter-of-factly. "He got hit by a roadside bomb. And I lost him June 16, on Father's Day."

"We thought that when we heard the doorbell it was the pizza man," recalled Angel van Dusen, a playful 11-year-old who turned somber in the group. "I went to the door and I told my mom it wasn't [the pizza man] … and the next thing I knew she came inside starting to cry."

Third-grader Katie Staats is as bright and cheerful as kids come. Her blue eyes and broad smile perfectly match those of her father, David, in the photo on her button. He died in Iraq on Dec. 16.

"That ruined my Christmas," she said. "My dad promised that no one would knock on the door. He kept that promise. My mom … met the people in the driveway."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=13863193

How do you feel about those stories Beach Bum?

Are those kids whiners or are they understandably upset b/c their dads were protecting our freedoms in Iraq when they were killed?

What do you think?

[Decker]

Our democracy hasn't been destroyed.  I didn't agree with the U.S. Supreme Court's decision and I think the Florida Supreme Court got it right, but what that entire situation showed was our democracy is in great shape.  In a number of countries there were have been tanks in the streets.  Instead, whether you agree with the outcome or not, we had the Florida AG make a decision, two courts make decisions, and there was an orderly change of the guard.  The system worked. 

Regarding my next tax cut, depends on which guy gets the job. 

2000 was the final nail in the coffin of this democratic experiment.  An unqualified man was installed in the White House after losing the general election.

Do you dispute any of that?

After Karl Rove promised Jack Welch deregulation resulting in billions to the compoany, the corporate media gave substantially favorable coverage to the buffoon candidate Bush while painting Al Gore as a serial liar, borderline traitor and certain psychotic.

I don't blame you for falling for that.  Many did.

But it is undenbiable that Bush is in the White House after 2000 b/c the votes were not fully counted.  If they were, Gore is the winner.

[Dos Equis]

Look at Dick Go!  Another fun Black tie event.  Those elites sure know how to party!  I bet that's how it was at the Bush Wedding this past weekend.  Don't you think?

"I'm here because my dad died in Iraq," said 10-year-old Dakota Givens, in a circle of 8- to 12 year-olds. "He was in his tank … and they went in some water. The gun broke and hit his door so he couldn't get out and he drowned."

"My dad was killed in Iraq," announced Taylor Heldt, another 10-year-old, who spoke matter-of-factly. "He got hit by a roadside bomb. And I lost him June 16, on Father's Day."

"We thought that when we heard the doorbell it was the pizza man," recalled Angel van Dusen, a playful 11-year-old who turned somber in the group. "I went to the door and I told my mom it wasn't [the pizza man] … and the next thing I knew she came inside starting to cry."

Third-grader Katie Staats is as bright and cheerful as kids come. Her blue eyes and broad smile perfectly match those of her father, David, in the photo on her button. He died in Iraq on Dec. 16.

"That ruined my Christmas," she said. "My dad promised that no one would knock on the door. He kept that promise. My mom … met the people in the driveway."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=13863193

How do you feel about those stories Beach Bum?

Are those kids whiners or are they understandably upset b/c their dads were protecting our freedoms in Iraq when they were killed?

What do you think?

How dare Bush celebrate his daughter's wedding.  Just heartless.  He should be walking around in sackcloth and ashes till he leaves office. 

Tragic stories.  Any time a child loses a parent it is a tragedy.  What's your point? 

[Dos Equis]

2000 was the final nail in the coffin of this democratic experiment.  An unqualified man was installed in the White House after losing the general election.

Do you dispute any of that?

After Karl Rove promised Jack Welch deregulation resulting in billions to the compoany, the corporate media gave substantially favorable coverage to the buffoon candidate Bush while painting Al Gore as a serial liar, borderline traitor and certain psychotic.

I don't blame you for falling for that.  Many did.

But it is undenbiable that Bush is in the White House after 2000 b/c the votes were not fully counted.  If they were, Gore is the winner.

Yes I dispute all of it. 

[ToxicAvenger]

  Any time a child loses a parent cause of someone elses fuckup

fixed

[War-Horse]

Only God will fix this mess.....sickning times indeed.  If mccain gets elected thru crooked measures like bush did then we may just have tanks rolling the streets soon.

The goal of democracy will never be accomplished in Iraq. the people do not understand ,and even if they did they would rebel for the fact that all the neighboring countries would incite violence and go back to terrorist ways of fighting.

Get em home now.  There will NEVER be a right time, so the time is now.

[Decker]

How dare Bush celebrate his daughter's wedding.  Just heartless.  He should be walking around in sackcloth and ashes till he leaves office. 

No, he should admit his error in attacking Iraq and stop sacrificing other people's children/parents/brothers/sisters for an obvious mistake that will be passed on to his successor.

Bush did promise to "solve problems, not pass them on to future presidents and future generations." 

Or is that another campaign slogan you fell for?

Tragic stories.  Any time a child loses a parent it is a tragedy.  What's your point? 

My point Beach Bum is this:  what do you care if those kids lose a parent?  You support the war and the sacrifices THEY MAKE.  Yet you are going to vote for a presidential candidate that will guarantee sending more parents into the Iraqi meatgrinder. 

But you do get a tax cut with McCain.  So I can see how the choice is muddled.

Why don't you just show them your handy-dandy laundry list of Democrats that thought Iraq had WMDs?

I'm sure they'd understand that.  After all, according to you, it is a bipartisan mistake--this invasion of Iraq.

THE REASON WE FIGHT IS AS VALID FOR TODAY AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING.

What's that reason again?

[Dos Equis]

No, he should admit his error in attacking Iraq and stop sacrificing other people's children/parents/brothers/sisters for an obvious mistake that will be passed on to his successor.

Bush did promise to "solve problems, not pass them on to future presidents and future generations." 

Or is that another campaign slogan you fell for?
 
My point Beach Bum is this:  what do you care if those kids lose a parent?  You support the war and the sacrifices THEY MAKE.  Yet you are going to vote for a presidential candidate that will guarantee sending more parents into the Iraqi meatgrinder. 

But you do get a tax cut with McCain.  So I can see how the choice is muddled.

Why don't you just show them your handy-dandy laundry list of Democrats that thought Iraq had WMDs?

I'm sure they'd understand that.  After all, according to you, it is a bipartisan mistake--this invasion of Iraq.

THE REASON WE FIGHT IS AS VALID FOR TODAY AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING.

What's that reason again?

It's too bad you haven't gotten over the 2000 election.  Bush won.  Gore lost.  Bush won.  Kerry lost.   

I will absolutely not mention, for about the 10th time (or more) on this site, why I agreed with the start of the war.  You are free to go look up my most recent discussion, which I believe I had with you.  Wasn't it just about a month or so ago?   

I have never called the war a bipartisan mistake.  I've said bipartisan members of Congress and much of the world believed Saddam was a threat and needed to be disarmed.  I have, however, said the war has been mismanaged. 

Whether you believe the war is "just" or not has zero to do with whether the loss of a parent is tragic for the kid.  The fact remains that the child lost a parent.  That is a tragedy whether the parent is killed in heroic combat, by friendly fire, or by any other means.  The fact there are kids who have lost parents in the war doesn't prove your point (that the was is illegal) one bit.  Death is an unfortunate and tragic part of war.     

[Decker]

It's too bad you haven't gotten over the 2000 election.  Bush won.  Gore lost.  Bush won.  Kerry lost.

Kerry didn't run in the 2000 election.  The world is as pliable and simple as you make it.  If you want to exist insulating yourself from the political crime of the decade, that's your business.  I'm certain a man of your intelligence has doubts.    

I will absolutely not mention, for about the 10th time (or more) on this site, why I agreed with the start of the war.  You are free to go look up my most recent discussion, which I believe I had with you.  Wasn't it just about a month or so ago?

If your argument comes down to a simple "Everybody thought Iraq was a threat w/ WMDs" you can insulate yourself with that mistaken notion.  The US, GB, Germany, and the UN thought that Hussein may have had residual stockpiles of some chemical and biological WMDs.

Only the Bush people pushed: massive stockpiles of WMD; Hussein was six months away from completing a nuclear weapon, or possibly had developed one already; Hussein had ties with al Qaeda and would readily hand over nukes to al Qaeda; Iraq was poised to attack the USA. 

All lies.

You are living in an unexamined world.

I have never called the war a bipartisan mistake.  I've said bipartisan members of Congress and much of the world believed Saddam was a threat and needed to be disarmed.  I have, however, said the war has been mismanaged.

The word "mistake" was my addition.  But you have gone to great lengths to show the bipartisan nature of the US government's attack on Iraq.  Much of the world also believed that a meteor could crash into the earth some day--that's a danger as well.  Perhaps we'd better take to space and blow them all up?

Saddam was a disenfranchised flea and everyone new it except for you and the pro-war crowd listening to the propaganda about 'hitler revisited' and 'in league with Al Qaeda' and 'arming up with nukes to attack the USA'.

That is so ridiculous on its face that I can't believe anyone can repeat in solemnity without cracking up.

Are you also worried about Libya or Grenada attacking the US too?

Whether you believe the war is "just" or not has zero to do with whether the loss of a parent is tragic for the kid.  The fact remains that the child lost a parent.  That is a tragedy whether the parent is killed in heroic combat, by friendly fire, or by any other means.  The fact there are kids who have lost parents in the war doesn't prove your point (that the was is illegal) one bit.  Death is an unfortunate and tragic part of war.

I'm not reasserting the war is illegal.  You are.

I'm saying that: what do you care if those kids lose a parent? 

You support the war and the sacrifices THEY MAKE.  Yet you are going to vote for a presidential candidate that will guarantee sending more parents into the Iraqi meatgrinder.

THE REASON WE FIGHT IS AS VALID FOR TODAY AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING.

What's that reason again?

In other words, what is the reason that you support a presidential candidate that will certainly send more parents to die in Iraq?  Why should those parents have to die.  What is the reason?  Why continue the mistake?

   

[Decker]

10. Never give up on an idea simply because it is bad and doesn't work. Cling to it even when it is hopeless. Anyone can cut and run, but it takes a very special person to stay with something that is stupid and harmful.

http://www.georgecarlin.com/home/home.html

[Dos Equis]

Kerry didn't run in the 2000 election.  The world is as pliable and simple as you make it.  If you want to exist insulating yourself from the political crime of the decade, that's your business.  I'm certain a man of your intelligence has doubts.    
If your argument comes down to a simple "Everybody thought Iraq was a threat w/ WMDs" you can insulate yourself with that mistaken notion.  The US, GB, Germany, and the UN thought that Hussein may have had residual stockpiles of some chemical and biological WMDs.

Only the Bush people pushed: massive stockpiles of WMD; Hussein was six months away from completing a nuclear weapon, or possibly had developed one already; Hussein had ties with al Qaeda and would readily hand over nukes to al Qaeda; Iraq was poised to attack the USA. 

All lies.

You are living in an unexamined world.
The word "mistake" was my addition.  But you have gone to great lengths to show the bipartisan nature of the US government's attack on Iraq.  Much of the world also believed that a meteor could crash into the earth some day--that's a danger as well.  Perhaps we'd better take to space and blow them all up?

Saddam was a disenfranchised flea and everyone new it except for you and the pro-war crowd listening to the propaganda about 'hitler revisited' and 'in league with Al Qaeda' and 'arming up with nukes to attack the USA'.

That is so ridiculous on its face that I can't believe anyone can repeat in solemnity without cracking up.

Are you also worried about Libya or Grenada attacking the US too?
I'm not reasserting the war is illegal.  You are.

I'm saying that: what do you care if those kids lose a parent? 

You support the war and the sacrifices THEY MAKE.  Yet you are going to vote for a presidential candidate that will guarantee sending more parents into the Iraqi meatgrinder.

THE REASON WE FIGHT IS AS VALID FOR TODAY AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING.

What's that reason again?

In other words, what is the reason that you support a presidential candidate that will certainly send more parents to die in Iraq?  Why should those parents have to die.  What is the reason?  Why continue the mistake?

   

If you want to continue the futile "the war was illegal" and "Bush is a war criminal" mantra, be my guest.  You're just going to become bitter (if you're not there already).  But it is good message board fodder. 

I'm going to vote for McCain because he's a better presidential candidate than Obama.  Nothing more complicated than that. 

[Decker]

If you want to continue the futile "the war was illegal" and "Bush is a war criminal" mantra, be my guest.  You're just going to become bitter (if you're not there already).  But it is good message board fodder. 

I'm going to vote for McCain because he's a better presidential candidate than Obama.  Nothing more complicated than that. 

I'm not arguing the legality of the war.  I'm not calling Bush a war criminal.

Both of those statements are true though.

Why is McCain a better presidential candidate when he promises to send more American parents to die in Iraq?  Don't you care about the people McCain is sending to their deaths?

Is the Iraq war still a good idea after all these years of fighting?

I know, I know, that's 3 questions.

Nothing more complicated than that. 

That's kind of an insulating excuse/cop-out on your part, sir.

[Dos Equis]

I'm not arguing the legality of the war.  I'm not calling Bush a war criminal.

Both of those statements are true though.

Why is McCain a better presidential candidate when he promises to send more American parents to die in Iraq?  Don't you care about the people McCain is sending to their deaths?

Is the Iraq war still a good idea after all these years of fighting?

I know, I know, that's 3 questions.
That's kind of an insulating excuse/cop-out on your part, sir.

McCain is a better candidate for at least the following reasons:

- McCain has the right mindset (cut taxes, cut spending)
- Obama will be an enemy of the business community
- He's older and far more experienced than Obama
- McCain is war hero
- Obama never wore the uniform
- Obama is a quasi-socialist with a quasi-socialist agenda
- McCain has an independent streak and isn't afraid to butt heads with his party
- Obama wants to raise capital gains taxes (and many others)
- McCain will be a better commander in chief than Obama
- Obama has displayed an alarming lack of judgment and I frankly don't believe him on this whole Wright thing

I could probably think of others, but that's what immediately comes to mind. 

Every commander in chief in every conflict in which we suffered fatalities involved the president sending American parents to die.  That one doesn't work for me.  Next? 

As I said, I think McCain is a better candidate than Obama (see above).  Not sure how that becomes a copout. 

[JBGRAY]

I met a young gentleman yesterday at the pharmacy.  He couldn't have been more than 22, maybe 24.  He was skinny and walked in great pain.  He was going to get his various meds.  Him and I began to talk, and he told me that he was injured by shrapnel while fighting in Fallujah in 2004.  He pulled up his shirt and I saw one of the nastiest scars I've ever seen...the middle of his chest down to his pelvic region was a mass of scars...it almost looked like he had a giant white scorpion sitting on this torso. I asked him if the Army treats him alright, he said "yea."  Apparently he gets 90% of his E4 base pay and he is covered medically. 

I didn't press him for specific details or what his political thoughts were.  We just shot the shit pretty much, telling old war stories while he waited for his prescription to be dispensed. 

It's tough to say some things when you meet the walking wounded in real life.  What do you say...thanks?  Rot in hell?  How'd it feel to kill innocent people?  I feel bad for you?  Ignore them entirely?  Look at them with pity?  These are what some people say when those soldiers aren't around. 

[JBGRAY]

McCain is a better candidate for at least the following reasons:

- McCain has the right mindset (cut taxes, cut spending)
- Obama will be an enemy of the business community
- He's older and far more experienced than Obama
- McCain is war hero
- Obama never wore the uniform
- Obama is a quasi-socialist with a quasi-socialist agenda
- McCain has an independent streak and isn't afraid to butt heads with his party
- Obama wants to raise capital gains taxes (and many others)
- McCain will be a better commander in chief than Obama
- Obama has displayed an alarming lack of judgment and I frankly don't believe him on this whole Wright thing

McCain seeks to grant amnesty to millions of foreigners who are here illegally in the United States.

McCain seeks to appease the warhawks and the poweful Israeli lobby by desiring to attack Iran.

McCain seeks to continue Bush's failed foreign and economic policies.

McCain is woefully ignorant of the top concern of American voters...the economy.

McCain has partnered with such illustrious democrats such as Ted Kennedy and Russ Feingold to restrict Freedom of Speech and to continue failed immigration policies.

McCain is hot tempered and irrational.

McCain is probably suffering from dementia.

McCain is old as dirt.

McCain wants to continue the Iraq war with no hope of US withdrawal.

McCain cavorts with the likes of John Hagee.

McCain is accompanied by the Rasputin of our times, the toad-faced Joe Lieberman, seen constantly whispering in McCain's ear.

The best presidents throughout our history have never worn the uniform.

McCain is also a Statist, believing that groups of people are unable to govern themselves.

[Decker]

...
I could probably think of others, but that's what immediately comes to mind. 

Every commander in chief in every conflict in which we suffered fatalities involved the president sending American parents to die.  That one doesn't work for me.  Next? 

...

After 5 years, is the Iraq war still a good idea?

Is it worth making orphans out of USA children?

I guess from your answer, the other factors--Mc's a hero, not a quasi-socilaist--outweigh the deaths of those childrens' parents in a protracted Iraq war.

I'm just trying to pin down where you are coming from on this.

[Dos Equis]

McCain seeks to grant amnesty to millions of foreigners who are here illegally in the United States.

McCain seeks to appease the warhawks and the poweful Israeli lobby by desiring to attack Iran.

McCain seeks to continue Bush's failed foreign and economic policies.

McCain is woefully ignorant of the top concern of American voters...the economy.

McCain has partnered with such illustrious democrats such as Ted Kennedy and Russ Feingold to restrict Freedom of Speech and to continue failed immigration policies.

McCain is hot tempered and irrational.

McCain is probably suffering from dementia.

McCain is old as dirt.

McCain wants to continue the Iraq war with no hope of US withdrawal.

McCain cavorts with the likes of John Hagee.

McCain is accompanied by the Rasputin of our times, the toad-faced Joe Lieberman, seen constantly whispering in McCain's ear.

The best presidents throughout our history have never worn the uniform.

McCain is also a Statist, believing that groups of people are unable to govern themselves.

So I take it you don't like McCain?   

[Dos Equis]

After 5 years, is the Iraq war still a good idea?

Is it worth making orphans out of USA children?

I guess from your answer, the other factors--Mc's a hero, not a quasi-socilaist--outweigh the deaths of those childrens' parents in a protracted Iraq war.

I'm just trying to pin down where you are coming from on this.

It's a good idea to get our men and women home as soon as possible without leaving Iraq with the inability to defend itself and without permitting genocide.  We will probably always have a presence in Iraq, so if you vote for Obama you'll be voting for a man who will still send men and women to Iraq.   

It's not hard to pin down where I'm coming from.  I think McCain will be a better CIC than Obama.  I'd rather have someone with his experience leading us through two ongoing combat operations than someone who probably favors the Peace Corp over the U.S. military.

What you're trying to do is reconcile my views with your distorted (in my opinion) view of the war.