Author Topic: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan  (Read 3271 times)

Dos Equis

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Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« on: September 17, 2007, 11:17:51 AM »
Socialism for everyone.  So her plan raises taxes on some and cuts taxes for other.  Typical liberal class warfare. 

Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan

. . .

"To help pay for the plan. Clinton would also eliminate the Bush tax cuts for those making over $250,000 and limit the amount employers can exclude from taxes for health care benefits paid for those making over $250,000.

In her plan, Clinton said families would receive tax credits to help pay for coverage. The tax credit would be designed to limit the premiums to a percentage of a family's income."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/17/health.care/index.html

Decker

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2007, 11:57:28 AM »
We are the only modern industrialized western country without universal healthcare.

The other countries are starting to laugh at us. 

Why yesterday I thought I heard Canada holding back on a wheezing chuckle.

We can't have other countries laughing at us, can we?

And what's wrong with a little socialism if it helps the vast majority of people? 


Dos Equis

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 12:15:48 PM »
We are the only modern industrialized western country without universal healthcare.

The other countries are starting to laugh at us. 

Why yesterday I thought I heard Canada holding back on a wheezing chuckle.

We can't have other countries laughing at us, can we?

And what's wrong with a little socialism if it helps the vast majority of people? 



What countries are laughing at us?  Would it be those same countries whose people keep flooding our borders? 

I'd hardly look to Canada as an example.  I've heard about numerous problems with that system.  For instance, people having to travel hundreds of miles for treatment.  And they get taxed up the wazoo. 

Part of the problem with socialism is contained in Hillary's plan:  raise taxes on some, give the proceeds to others.  I don't want the government redistributing wealth in that fashion.  We (the tax payers) already pay for county hospitals, clinics, Medicare, Medicaid, state programs, etc.  I don't want the government creating another bureaucratic monster, particularly when it will be funded in part on the backs of some tax payers. 

Socialism is also antithetical to capitalism.  It is capitalism that is partly responsible for the greatness of this country. 

When has socialism ever produced a vibrant, healthy country where the people thrive – and aren’t trying to flee?     

Colossus_500

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2007, 01:13:10 PM »
What countries are laughing at us?  Would it be those same countries whose people keep flooding our borders? 

I'd hardly look to Canada as an example.  I've heard about numerous problems with that system.  For instance, people having to travel hundreds of miles for treatment.  And they get taxed up the wazoo. 

Part of the problem with socialism is contained in Hillary's plan:  raise taxes on some, give the proceeds to others.  I don't want the government redistributing wealth in that fashion.  We (the tax payers) already pay for county hospitals, clinics, Medicare, Medicaid, state programs, etc.  I don't want the government creating another bureaucratic monster, particularly when it will be funded in part on the backs of some tax payers. 

Socialism is also antithetical to capitalism.  It is capitalism that is partly responsible for the greatness of this country. 

When has socialism ever produced a vibrant, healthy country where the people thrive – and aren’t trying to flee?     

Agreed!!!

The gov't just needs to do a better job of handling the money that taxpayers already submit.  And if you quote Canada as a source for how well universal healthcare works, then it might be a good idea to look elsewhere. There's alot of information out there that paints a much different picture, personal testimonies, etc. 

Decker

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2007, 01:26:24 PM »
...Socialism is also antithetical to capitalism.  It is capitalism that is partly responsible for the greatness of this country. 

When has socialism ever produced a vibrant, healthy country where the people thrive – and aren’t trying to flee?     

What you refer to as 'Socialism' is really a moderated form of Capitalism.  Pure Socialism would be something like an ESOP where employees own the means of production.

Here's where socialism has produced a vibrant, healthy country where people thrive:  Britain.

Britain has a form of Universal healthcare that, in terms of availability/access, quality and outcome, is superior to the privatized system in the US.  And it costs 40% less per person.  http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=482678

So there you are.  Better care through universal care at almost half the cost.

Unless you like to pay the feudal lords of privatized medicine for their corporate headquarters, CEO compensation, corporate jets, PGA tour sponsorships, and on and on.  The privatized system is not working.

Remember where our privatized system of Healthcare has gotten us:

1         France
2         Italy
3         San Marino
4         Andorra
5         Malta
6         Singapore
7         Spain
8         Oman
9         Austria
10        Japan
11        Norway
12        Portugal
13        Monaco
14        Greece
15        Iceland
16        Luxembourg
17        Netherlands
18        United  Kingdom
19        Ireland
20        Switzerland
21        Belgium
22        Colombia
23        Sweden
24        Cyprus
25        Germany
26        Saudi Arabia
27        United  Arab  Emirates
28        Israel
29        Morocco
30        Canada
31        Finland
32        Australia
33        Chile
34        Denmark
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica
37        United  States  of  America
38        Slovenia
39        Cuba
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Decker

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2007, 01:27:43 PM »
Agreed!!!

The gov't just needs to do a better job of handling the money that taxpayers already submit.  And if you quote Canada as a source for how well universal healthcare works, then it might be a good idea to look elsewhere. There's alot of information out there that paints a much different picture, personal testimonies, etc. 
I had britain in mind as having the superior system.  I picked canada b/c how on earth could I hear Britain laughing at us?  What with the Atlantic Ocean and all.

Colossus_500

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2007, 01:38:23 PM »
I had britain in mind as having the superior system.  I picked canada b/c how on earth could I hear Britain laughing at us?  What with the Atlantic Ocean and all.
LOL


Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 07:41:24 PM »
Health Care is a service like anything else. 
S

Colossus_500

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2007, 09:21:22 AM »
What you refer to as 'Socialism' is really a moderated form of Capitalism.  Pure Socialism would be something like an ESOP where employees own the means of production.

Here's where socialism has produced a vibrant, healthy country where people thrive:  Britain.

Britain has a form of Universal healthcare that, in terms of availability/access, quality and outcome, is superior to the privatized system in the US.  And it costs 40% less per person.  http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=482678

So there you are.  Better care through universal care at almost half the cost.

Unless you like to pay the feudal lords of privatized medicine for their corporate headquarters, CEO compensation, corporate jets, PGA tour sponsorships, and on and on.  The privatized system is not working.

Remember where our privatized system of Healthcare has gotten us:

1         France
2         Italy
3         San Marino
4         Andorra
5         Malta
6         Singapore
7         Spain
8         Oman
9         Austria
10        Japan
11        Norway
12        Portugal
13        Monaco
14        Greece
15        Iceland
16        Luxembourg
17        Netherlands
18        United  Kingdom
19        Ireland
20        Switzerland
21        Belgium
22        Colombia
23        Sweden
24        Cyprus
25        Germany
26        Saudi Arabia
27        United  Arab  Emirates
28        Israel
29        Morocco
30        Canada
31        Finland
32        Australia
33        Chile
34        Denmark
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica
37        United  States  of  America
38        Slovenia
39        Cuba
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
What?   :o  One of the top 10 healthcare systems in the world might not be worth all it's hype? ???

Far East illustrates the limitations and dangers of universal health care
By Drs. Michael A. Glueck & Robert J. Cihak
 
 
http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | If we in California and the United States had wings and an infinite monies we could fly the best available healthcare to everyone here, there and everywhere.

The ideological concept of "universal care" looks right, sounds moral and feels good. California Governor Arnold deserves some credit for trying something bold. The problem is that history shows these programs do not work. They have failed in Canada, Great Britain, and other European countries (France, Germany, and Sweden). Coverage has become too costly in Massachusetts in less than a year.

The etiology of healthcare fever is always insufficient funds. The Governor's plan is estimated to cost 12 billion a year. But if you believe that number we have a long wide concrete bridge over Newport Bay to sell you for twenty- three bucks.

When the level of money injected into the blood sinks too low the medical outcomes are rationing and restraint accompanied by chronically high moral dilemmas. Medical care will be rationed, one way or another, so long as the government has finite resources and so long as people keep confusing insurance with fee-for-service.

JAPANESE UNIVERSAL CARE FAILING
Now, according to a recent release by the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, it is failing in Japan.

If universal care were the genuine cure-all, the one country where it should work is Japan. They have a homogenous population, healthier lifestyle, eat more fish and soy, more vegetables and far less obesity than here. If universal care does not work there why should it work anywhere?

According to Japanese legislator Takashi Yamamoto, who was just diagnosed with cancer, "abandoned cancer refugees are roaming the Japanese archipelago." Patients are told they¹ll never get better, even when treatments exist, and many are not even informed of their diagnoses. Cancer mortality rates in Japan have been steadily climbing and are now more than 250 per 100,000, while U.S. rates are now around 180 per 100,000.

Japanese public television showed the stark contrast. In the U.S., multiple specialists meet to discuss a cancer patient¹s care. In Japan, a single doctor usually makes the diagnosis and carries out treatment with minimal consultation.

THREE HOUR WAIT FOR THREE MINUTE VISIT
While Japanese patients want American-style treatment, their policymakers are alarmed. With a huge national debt and corporations worried about higher taxes, they say Japan can¹t afford to pour money into treatments that can¹t extend life span by very much.

"America did too much of this and that¹s why their medical costs have grown," said Masaharu Nakajima, a surgeon and former director of the Health Bureau at the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare.

Since Japan enacted universal health insurance in the early 1960s, the emphasis has been on a minimum standard of care for all. People must pay a monthly health-insurance fee, and large companies pay also. Coverage decisions, doctors¹ pay, and other rules are set by the central government.

Japanese doctors complain that they have no time to spend with patients. The experience of seeing a doctor is summarized as "a three-hour wait for a three-minute visit."

"Our rights as individuals are not being recognized," stated lung cancer patient Hidesuke Hashimoto. Mr. Hashimoto, a former math teacher, undertook to study his options on his own, moving along to a different hospital when told there was nothing more that could be done, and sometimes paying out of pocket (Landers, Wall Street Journal 1/11/07).

SHOULD THE STATE OWN YOUR BODY?
Commenting on the WSJ article, Craig Cantoni, a columnist in Scottsdale, Ariz., writes: "Like nationalized health care in other countries, the Japanese system is based on the premise that the state owns your body." Therefore, "the state can dictate what medical care can be withheld from you, either by policy or by making you wait so long for care that you die in the mean time. ŠNor is [this] justified by the fact that Japan spends about half as much per capita on health care as the United States, or by the fact that the Japanese have a longer life expectancy."

TWO MINUTE WARNING
If rights are seized for reasons of cost or efficiency, no right is safe from do-gooders and busybodies, from lawyers, politicians, and bureaucrats, and from the tyranny of the majority.

If the universal healthcare system is failing in Japan it will fail in California, just as in Massachusetts or any other state that experiments with it.

Editor's Note: Michael Arnold Glueck,M.D. wrote this week's commentary

Decker

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2007, 10:06:13 AM »
Japan is ranked #10 on the list.  If that's failing, then where does the US, at #37, stand?

How about the fact that the US spends 40% more on healthcare, on a per person basis, than Great Britain but offers poorer service/results?

Here in the US we pay almost twice as much for less!

You can't really hang your hat on that.
      

militarymuscle69

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 10:13:15 AM »
Japan is ranked #10 on the list.  If that's failing, then where does the US, at #37, stand?

How about the fact that the US spends 40% more on healthcare, on a per person basis, than Great Britain but offers poorer service/results?

Here in the US we pay almost twice as much for less!

You can't really hang your hat on that.
      

yeah I read stories everyday about people going to britain to get the care they can't get here...maybe that's backwards....oh maybe it was the story about americans having to wait 17 days for an appointment so they crossed the canadian border for health care...no no I think that is backwards also, oh I give up
gotta love life

Decker

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2007, 10:22:50 AM »
yeah I read stories everyday about people going to britain to get the care they can't get here...maybe that's backwards....oh maybe it was the story about americans having to wait 17 days for an appointment so they crossed the canadian border for health care...no no I think that is backwards also, oh I give up
No, you've read about people around the world seeking emergency/specialty healthcare.  The US is the best in that department.  That's a fact.

Universal Healthcare cuts off those ailments before they become giant tumors or pneumonia.

OzmO

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2007, 10:44:11 AM »
I've actually had experiences with Health care in England and they were excellent.   Not to say because of that they aren't problems.

But i hope we can all agree that our health care system, private or otherwise, in America is over bloated with malpractice phobia and prices for services and drugs that are way too high.

I don't like Clinton's plan,  but there has to be a better answer.

Colossus_500

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 01:11:13 PM »
I've actually had experiences with Health care in England and they were excellent.   Not to say because of that they aren't problems.

But i hope we can all agree that our health care system, private or otherwise, in America is over bloated with malpractice phobia and prices for services and drugs that are way too high.

I don't like Clinton's plan,  but there has to be a better answer.
Agreed

xxxLinda

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 06:20:00 PM »
Ummm...  We had the reverse opposite story on the BBC news here in London, England today.  It's rare we get a story here about healthcare in the US.  But we know all about it already, we learnt it from ER (George Clooney?)  You don't get treated in America unless you've paid expensive insurance.

Today on the BBC headlines (I guess they're trying to divert us from the massacre going on in Burma and also having to cull all the cows in England yet again), there was a story about a little boy in America who died aged 12 from an infected tooth because his mother wasn't poor enough to qualify for medicare because she worked and yet was too poor to afford to have the tooth pulled.  Couldn't keep up with the story, they were showing senators standing up with 8 foot by 10 foot photos of dying Deamonte and his crying mother.

Have you got an election coming up?  We may have, but I doubt it, not here till at least next year.



To explain the British system:  we have the NHS: National Health Service, set up immediately after the Second World War, by a Labour (socialist) government.  It is like a social umbrella, or that's what I was taught as a child.  From cradle to grave or from womb to... can't remember, I should look it up.  It's part of our (extremely high) income tax. 

It's far bigger than our defense budget.

I also lived in Canada for 17 years and there, it was an affordable important insurance you paid (on top of income tax and that was 27% or something, even higher than here), or you got a good job with an employer who paid your HIP Health Insurance Plan for you.  That worked very well too. 



All of the cash and all of the nurses and doctors here are now running out though.  The NHS is floundering.  They have nasty killer diseases in the hospitals from people not having time to wash their hands or something or allergies or global warming or the influx of foreigners and what about Doctors travelling abroad to get better pay?  Nurses are the lowest paid workers (practically) in this country and while we're at it can we sort out the striking monks in Burma?

And I've just re-read your previous and can confirm, yes, there must be an election coming up.

This could and should be a war about prices and currencies and also about paying for health and every other kind of care for everyone on this gorgeous earth.  I've just decided that the whole election will be decided on how they sort out the price of drugs.  Maybe, just maybe, it's about drugs and not about oil.


Last night I watched a fab debate show where they were suggesting threatening to boycott the Beijing Olympics, which was something to do with talking to China whist sorting out Russia &/or Iraq and the US, or something, I couldn't keep up.  Maybe it was about sport.  (You probably didn't know that one of the biggest news stories ever is that the Olympics are coming to London in 2012 and that that will cost each and every taxpayer in this country quite a bit for very many years to come...

Today I saw the most amazing daytime TV, they were doing a 10-year thing about Princess Diana and how after 4 coroners, they're finally doing it again. Al-Fayed's solicitors are going to go full-force at the British Royal Family and accuse them of murder, this will be fascinating. 

I'm just talking about our royal family because I assume you're talking about Hilary?  I haven't followed US politics lately because I can't understand Bush.

& they're also doing a live web-link with Arnold Swartzican'tspellitwhatshisnamenegg er from California direct to the Tory (Conservative, the party not-in-power) conference broadcast here next week. 

I can't wait to hear what he has to say about mandatory-health-care.  But I'm not sure whether I'll be able to understand his accent either.

xxxLinda

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 06:26:29 PM »
I can get to France in an hour for £20.

But Italy isn't much further and I prefer the food there.

xL

(joke?

Colossus_500

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2007, 09:59:18 AM »
so true!!!!

“Governments are not empowered to grant rights; governments can only limit, or extinguish rights. Governments can, however, bestow gifts upon its citizens. But in order to do so, governments must first take resources from those who have earned them, and redistribute those resources to others. Hillary-care, Obama-care, Edwards-care, and every other form of socialized medicine, is inherently fraught with fraud, abuse, and corruption... If the federal government is to be involved in health care, it should be looking toward encouraging, and providing incentives for private medical care that is determined between the patient and provider. The problem is complex, and cannot be solved by any government program. Health care is certainly one of the primary areas where the principles of freedom should be observed and advanced. Any candidate, or politician, who thinks government can solve the problem better than a free market, should be rejected.” —Henry Lamb

Decker

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2007, 10:22:40 AM »
so true!!!!

“Governments are not empowered to grant rights; governments can only limit, or extinguish rights. Governments can, however, bestow gifts upon its citizens. But in order to do so, governments must first take resources from those who have earned them, and redistribute those resources to others. Hillary-care, Obama-care, Edwards-care, and every other form of socialized medicine, is inherently fraught with fraud, abuse, and corruption... If the federal government is to be involved in health care, it should be looking toward encouraging, and providing incentives for private medical care that is determined between the patient and provider. The problem is complex, and cannot be solved by any government program. Health care is certainly one of the primary areas where the principles of freedom should be observed and advanced. Any candidate, or politician, who thinks government can solve the problem better than a free market, should be rejected.” —Henry Lamb
That's a nice rhetorical statement for private health insurance. 

But government does grant all of our rights.  The Founders stated that our rights are inalienable meaning they cannot be sold or transferred meaning that the King of England has no say re our rights under the constitution. 

Every right you enjoy in the US is b/c of the rights guaranteed in the US Constitution--a social contract.  Without the constitution you have no right to property, life or liberty....not to mention happiness.

"...socialized medicine, is inherently fraught with fraud, abuse, and corruption..."  What a nice conclusion.  Where's the factual support?

I can show you many many cases of private health insurance companies scamming the system.

http://healthinsuranceinfo4u.com/Health_Insurance_Fraud.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/insfraud.html




Dos Equis

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2007, 11:00:18 AM »
so true!!!!

“Governments are not empowered to grant rights; governments can only limit, or extinguish rights. Governments can, however, bestow gifts upon its citizens. But in order to do so, governments must first take resources from those who have earned them, and redistribute those resources to others. Hillary-care, Obama-care, Edwards-care, and every other form of socialized medicine, is inherently fraught with fraud, abuse, and corruption... If the federal government is to be involved in health care, it should be looking toward encouraging, and providing incentives for private medical care that is determined between the patient and provider. The problem is complex, and cannot be solved by any government program. Health care is certainly one of the primary areas where the principles of freedom should be observed and advanced. Any candidate, or politician, who thinks government can solve the problem better than a free market, should be rejected.” —Henry Lamb

Yes.  I agree. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2007, 11:01:36 AM »
Just wondering Beach Bum, how often do you take your head OUT your azz to come up for air ?

Everyday, but it can get very tricky.  How about you?     

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2007, 11:21:35 AM »
Everyday, but it can get very tricky.  How about you?     

No, but if you ever need help, let me know.  ;)

Dos Equis

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2007, 11:23:26 AM »
No, but if you ever need help, let me know.  ;)

Whoa Nellie.  No thanks.  :)

Colossus_500

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2007, 11:45:36 AM »
I can show you many many cases of private health insurance companies scamming the system.
And your solution is to entrust health insurance to the government, who's not corrupt, yes?   :-\

Decker

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2007, 11:54:31 AM »
And your solution is to entrust health insurance to the government, who's not corrupt, yes?   :-\
Now granted, oversight has been lost during the Bush administration and corruption has been vast.  But under a normal administration, the GAO and other governmental checks and balances act to review any corruption.

By and large, the government is NOT corrupt.  You'll see stories of some small time administrative pencil pusher trying to abscond with a few hundred thousand dollars.

But the main part of governmental waste comes from private coprorations exploiting governmental contracts.

Remember the $700 hammers...or any sweetheart no-bid (or not) contract granted by the Bush administration to a number of its cronies.

So the dynamic is:  Government exploited by corrupt private interests.

Colossus_500

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Re: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2007, 12:08:08 PM »
Now granted, oversight has been lost during the Bush administration and corruption has been vast.  But under a normal administration, the GAO and other governmental checks and balances act to review any corruption.

By and large, the government is NOT corrupt.  You'll see stories of some small time administrative pencil pusher trying to abscond with a few hundred thousand dollars.

But the main part of governmental waste comes from private coprorations exploiting governmental contracts.

Remember the $700 hammers...or any sweetheart no-bid (or not) contract granted by the Bush administration to a number of its cronies.

So the dynamic is:  Government exploited by corrupt private interests.
have you seen the list of politicians who are personally bankrupt, have criminal records, lost their licenses, etc?  sorry, Deck, i'm not buying it.  where there is money, there is an insatiable drive to possess it, thus we'll always have corruption.  i say we minimize it to individuals rather than to entrust it to the gov't.