Do you think there is any point in a natural base?

[Army of One]

Any studies posted on this

This is it, I dont think there is, and since 95% of people irl lie about their use and when they started, it's extremely hard to call this bioscience or not.

[Big Chiro Flex]

I find this particular topic interesting.

  Carry on 

[chaos]

This is it, I dont think there is, and since 95% of people irl lie about their use and when they started, it's extremely hard to call this bioscience or not.

I just ask cause it seems most people in this thread are advocating juicing either right away or with very little experience.
Would be cool to see a long term study.

[Ronnie Rep]

surew you did.

but was it muscle that you gained

Of course there was some fat. I competed after 3 years of serious training at a bodyweight of 165! The only cycles I did was 8 weeks of Anavar 20 milligrams! For the show I did 25 Milligrams of D-bol and 1cc of deca a week!

[anabolichalo]

i wasted all my years of unrelenting super hard training on "naturalness"

i could have been a beast

[Ronnie Rep]

Juicing before you build a natural base is pointless if you want to have any muscle after you go off!

[anabolichalo]

Juicing before you build a natural base is pointless if you want to have any muscle after you go off!

good one

[The Abdominal Snoman]

this doesnt mean they havent built a foundation,it just means they sarte competiting soon

If Lee's mom had Lee juiced to the gills at 12 or 13 years old and he's never been off, just when was that foundation built?

[chaos]

what long term study you want?go to any fitness gym and see the skninny fats or the obese permabulkers who look same year round year in year out ever since in year training.

theres your study.

i trained naturaly for longer than maxed out too before i ever touched anything, i can tell.
a natural will after a year only ever gain muscle if the gains 4fold the fat along with that

its just not happening, nobody is so special to make wonders happen

So you think juicing year after year your body will continually change and you will always look different? These skinny/fat people you talk about look the same because they lack the drive to push themselves.

[Henda]

probably already said,I believe that natural limit really means how much muscle a natural can carry while staying very lean. A natural 6 foot tall can eat and train his way up to a very smooth 230 - 250 pounds but unless drugs are used attempts to get ripped will wind up with him being 10 to 20pounds heavier than he started and still not exactly ripped.
Despite the fact that at 250 he would have had a shitload of more muscle than when he started it will vanish into thin air when getting lean.

[dj181]

These skinny/fat people you talk about look the same because they lack the drive to push themselves.

yep

[The Grim Lifter]

Yes. Muscle is hard to build no matter what so you may as well take all you can naturally. The bigger you are when you start gear the more you explode.

As already said, after 3 years of committed natural training you are 98-9% of your potential for muscle.

[cswol]

If one does not have a good natural base they will never be able to build a dense quality physique, once off all drugs they will return to a worse than state before they started lifting

[Mr Nobody]

If one does not have a good natural base they will never be able to build a dense quality physique, once off all drugs they will return to a worse than state before they started lifting

True. You going to win the LA next Year?

[Deutsch]

IMHO, a natural base is needed for the average gym rat.

[anabolichalo]

The only point of natural training is to be healthier and live longer than most people if you also eat healthy at the same time. It is a fact people who exercize not being extremists and who eat well simply make their bodies last longer. As simple as that.

you are still built like a twink tho despite lifting weight relentlessly for years upon years

[anabolichalo]

coleman is like 50 and still juicing grams at peak health

[chaos]

hm, ok that post was bit selective by me, sorry for that.

ofc they look same bc they dont even know what theyre doing and theyre far from pushing themselves.

but lets say like this, for bodybuilding purpose, after a year of proper diet(not cutting or bulkikng just kinda ok-ish diet)and productive training, most of the size gains will be there and its best to concentrate on leanness from there on.

now, for strenght perspective, a natural can go far, and wont be maxed out within a year on that, but those gains will always comes with too much bodyfat, but thats no problem for those who dont mind.
but dieted down, these both will look pretty much the same, even 5 years later.

its not too bad, even steroid users have to draw a line somewhere, cant run gramm forever, and then when they shrink they cant mentaly take it and stop to never be heard of or seen near any gym.

a juicer who wants to live long will have,shredded vs shredded, maybe some 10-20lbs of pure muscle over a natty, and thats it, it dont sound like much but its remarkable difference visually.

Do you really believe that after 1 year of training a natural has maxed (or closely maxed) his muscle mass?

[Borracho]

Do you really believe that after 1 year of training a natural has maxed (or closely maxed) his muscle mass?

From my experience I would say no but that's only cause I wasted a lot of time doing the bulk/cut thing. Only added to my delusions...

[bigmc]

most of the guys that i know that jumped on gear as soon as they started training get ligament injuries

natural training helps build ligament strength

i believe you can max out in about two years

as gal says the only way to get bigger after that is to get a little bit fatter too

[Natural Man]

If you want to build muscles just lift weights and eat correctly. After some time you maximize your potential for each muscular group, reach its maximal development which is called the plateau phase. You cant add more weights anymore, you just hit your plateau. Try to develop the lagging bodypart to create a balanced physique. Be content with it, keep lifting (less) and eating healthy to maintain and ...finally fucking go find something else to do for a change.

[chaos]

I see alot of self doubt in the posters here.

[Mr Nobody]

I see alot of self doubt in the posters here.

Seems we need to Calvin H to post here to boost it up.

[Big Chiro Flex]

If you want to build muscles just lift weights and eat correctly. After some time you maximize your potential for each muscular group, reach its maximal development which is called the plateau phase. You cant add more weights anymore, you just hit your plateau. Try to develop the lagging bodypart to create a balanced physique. Be content with it, keep lifting (less) and eating healthy to maintain and ...finally fucking go find something else to do for a change.

You still have a long ways to go before you reach your plateau stage there pal, hope you are really trying to focus in on this.

[CalvinH]

"Base,how low can you go"