Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => History - Stories - and Memories => Topic started by: Vince G, CSN MFT on August 28, 2007, 08:01:25 AM
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Rest in peace.
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You guys don't know who Arthur Jones is.....
He is the founder of Nautilus (exercise equipment) and is the person who came up with the idea of intensity over long workouts.
He had a facility in Colorado that they would train people (Casey Viator - youngest Mr. America ever, 3rd place, Mr. O) and Mike Mentzer (2nd place Mr. Olympia, only perfect score as a heavyweight at a Mr. Universe contest). These guys would do these high intensity workouts 3x/week, 20 minutes, 30 minutes tops. In 12 weeks, they would go from out of shape to contest ready.
From this point, it died down a bit, until Yates resurrected it. Then, everyone followed it again. Now Mark Dugdale is leading the group of high-intensity, low volume trainers.
So, Arthur Jones was a revolutionary mind in the sport of bodybuilding....if he didn't come along, we'd all still be training 6 days/week, 2-3 hours/day.
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You guys don't know who Arthur Jones is.....
He is the founder of Nautilus (exercise equipment) and is the person who came up with the idea of intensity over long workouts.
He had a facility in Colorado that they would train people (Casey Viator - youngest Mr. America ever, 3rd place, Mr. O) and Mike Mentzer (2nd place Mr. Olympia, only perfect score as a heavyweight at a Mr. Universe contest). These guys would do these high intensity workouts 3x/week, 20 minutes, 30 minutes tops. In 12 weeks, they would go from out of shape to contest ready.
From this point, it died down a bit, until Yates resurrected it. Then, everyone followed it again. Now Mark Dugdale is leading the group of high-intensity, low volume trainers.
So, Arthur Jones was a revolutionary mind in the sport of bodybuilding....if he didn't come along, we'd all still be training 6 days/week, 2-3 hours/day.
Ummm...this is a bb'ing board so I'm pretty sure 90% of the people here know exactly who he is.
But thanks anyway for spending 15 minutes to type that post. :-X
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RIP 'Scott' , game over
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Ummm...this is a bb'ing board so I'm pretty sure 90% of the people here know exactly who he is.
But thanks anyway for spending 15 minutes to type that post. :-X
HAHAHAHA, yeah epic and pointless serious post
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http://arthurjonesexercise.com/index.html
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Gary Jones is Arthur Jones's son ?
and Gary Jones is the founder of Hammer machine ?
Can anybody give me anwser ?
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HAHAHAHA, yeah epic and pointless serious post
LMAO, yeah I hereby nominate this clown 'competing' as Getbig's official bb'ing historian.
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Arthur Jones is probably the only genius ever involved in the Iron Game. He revolutionized hypertrophy theory and professional gym equipment. His influence has been major and I doubt we will see a character like him again. I spoke with him on the phone in 1994 re my biceps-supination machine. He had a good sense of humour and was very interesting to speak with. I have nothing but respect for Arthur as an thinker, writer, inventor, trainer and all round interesting guy. Few of us ever approach living a life as rich as Arthur did.
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Gary Jones is Arthur Jones's son ?
and Gary Jones is the founder of Hammer machine ?
Can anybody give me anwser ?
The answer is yes and yes.
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The answer is yes and yes.
Thanks
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Thanks
No prob. I do what I can.
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No prob. I do what I can.
Tito you bastard! >:( You're stealing my thunder. I'll get you for this. I never get the answer right and when I finally do, you steal my glory. >:( I'm on the warpath and I'm coming to your town.
love,
Tom
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Rest in peace.
Seriously, did Mr. Jones die?
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You guys don't know who Arthur Jones is.....
He is the founder of Nautilus (exercise equipment) and is the person who came up with the idea of intensity over long workouts.
He had a facility in Colorado that they would train people (Casey Viator - youngest Mr. America ever, 3rd place, Mr. O) and Mike Mentzer (2nd place Mr. Olympia, only perfect score as a heavyweight at a Mr. Universe contest). These guys would do these high intensity workouts 3x/week, 20 minutes, 30 minutes tops. In 12 weeks, they would go from out of shape to contest ready.
From this point, it died down a bit, until Yates resurrected it. Then, everyone followed it again. Now Mark Dugdale is leading the group of high-intensity, low volume trainers.
So, Arthur Jones was a revolutionary mind in the sport of bodybuilding....if he didn't come along, we'd all still be training 6 days/week, 2-3 hours/day.
Facility in Lake Helen, Florida. Before that they used a high school's gym in Deland.
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he would have been 81 in nov. he always wanted to raise the largest crocodile and gorillas. he even let one of the apes train on his nautilis machines see hi intensity bodybuilding book.
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RIP 'Scott' , game over
lmao! " all i have to do is give the word" ::)
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Arthur Jones stole many of his equipment designs from his friend Jack LaLane.
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Gary Jones is Arthur Jones's son ?
and Gary Jones is the founder of Hammer machine ?
Can anybody give me anwser ?
Yes and the original drawings for Hammer were drawn by Pete G, while training at Arthur Jones and Pete gave him the drawings and then he started Hammer,
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Arthur Jones stole many of his equipment designs from his friend Jack LaLane.
thatwas actually harold zinkin who stole lalanne ideals and patented them as the universal machines seen in ever high school in the 70's.
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(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/Elephant%20%26%20Gun.jpg)
(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/Gators1.jpg)
(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/Most%20Muscular.jpg)
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brutal gut and soviet machine gun.
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(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/Elephant%20%26%20Gun.jpg)
(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/Gators1.jpg)
(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/Most%20Muscular.jpg)
macho, macho man.
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(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/JonesDoubleBi.jpg)
(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/JonesArmy.jpg)
(http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Photos/NEW/JonesElephant.jpg)
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He always carried a gun.
And legend has it that when Jones found out that one of the bodybuilders living and training at his facility were selling to his son, Jones had the man held, while he pistol-whipped him senseless.
Could've been Roger Callard.
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thatwas actually harold zinkin who stole lalanne ideals and patented them as the universal machines seen in ever high school in the 70's.
. . .my mistake
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He always carried a gun.
And legend has it that when Jones found out that one of the bodybuilders living and training at his facility were selling to his son, Jones had the man held, while he pistol-whipped him senseless.
Could've been Roger Callard.
what was he selling?
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what was he selling?
pistol-whipper repellant.
Arthur simply tested his hypothesis and determined the product was without worth.
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Rip
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He always carried a gun.
And legend has it that when Jones found out that one of the bodybuilders living and training at his facility were selling to his son, Jones had the man held, while he pistol-whipped him senseless.
Could've been Roger Callard.
it was kent kuehn not roger
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what was he selling?
::)
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it was kent kuehn not roger
All the versions I have heard about this mention it was Callard.
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Ive read several articles by Arthur Jones, he was very intelligent and a man ahead of his time.
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Jones was a VERY interesting man.
You can read a bit more about him in this interview I did with Ellington Darden, PhD.
http://www.atlargenutrition.com/ellington_darden_interview.php
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Read Bill Pearl's take on Jones in his book , he was certainly a character .
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If you would like to find out more about Arthur Jones, visit your local library.
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This is how BB has changed for the worse, compare a man like Arthur Jones to Steve Blechman
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OK, I understand Jones liked guns, but why the fuck, would he need a machine gun to feed a baby elephant?
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OK, I understand Jones liked guns, but why the fuck, would he need a machine gun to feed a baby elephant?
Legend has it that Arthur Jones was known to shoot baby elephants for trying to sell "stuff" to his son.
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OK, I understand Jones liked guns, but why the fuck, would he need a machine gun to feed a baby elephant?
Incase the elephant stepped out of line, he probably fired a few shots into the air.
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Incase the elephant stepped out of line, he probably fired a few shots into the air.
Legend has it, that Arthur Jones pistol whipped his shirt off his back right before that pic was taken. It was believed his son was buying "smack" from it.
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OK, I understand Jones liked guns, but why the fuck, would he need a machine gun to feed a baby elephant?
Well it looks like he's in Africa. I know he had trouble with the Rhodesian government(modern day Zimbabwe). He mentioned being on the look out for rebels, so maybe for protection just in case.
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In case the elephant stepped out of line, he probably fired a few shots into the air.
;D
I ain't never fired a machine gun in the vicinity of a baby elephant, but I'm guessing that if you ever wanted a baby elephant to "step out of line"... firing a machine gun would be a good way to do it.
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Arthur Jones, the inventor of Nautilus exercise equipment, died Tuesday. He was 80.
Jones had been ill for several days but was kept at home, per his wishes, said his son, William Edgar Jones. He died of natural causes, according to his son, who was by his father's side when he passed, along with a longtime friend and a nurse.
"He should be remembered as a man of extreme intelligence, extreme independence and probably one of the most unrecognized and unawarded inventors that ever existed," William Edgar Jones told The Associated Press.
His father was particularly proud of his latest invention — exercise machines used for rehabilitation purposes by people with spinal cord injuries and back pain, Jones said.
Nautilus came along in 1970 and introduced machines that offered a more-targeted approach to strength training, changing the idea of the workout.
The machines became ubiquitous — former President Ronald Reagan was even said to use Nautilus equipment in the White House when he was rehabilitating from his gunshot wound.
"Arthur Jones was the founder of modern-day exercise," Greg Webb, a Nautilus Inc. vice president of product development, said in a statement. "He had an incredible ability to create the interface between man and machine by incorporating biomechanics into exercise equipment."
The success of the machines also made Jones wealthy. He bought property in Ocala and started what has become the exclusive "fly-in" community of Jumbolair Aviation Estates, now most famously the home of John Travolta.
Besides his son, Arthur Jones is survived by two daughters.
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OCALA - Arthur A. Jones, inventor of the Nautilus exercise equipment and founder of the Jumbolair estate in Anthony, died at about 4:40 a.m. today at his Ocala home.
Jones was 80. His son, William, said he died of natural causes.
Jones was born in Arkansas and grew up in Oklahoma, according to a news release from MedX Corp., a fitness company he founded. He was a pilot, animal importer and filmmaker.
In 1970, he introduced Nautilus equipment, "the first of its kind marketed to utilize the principle of variable resistance to develop muscles and build strength," according to MedX.
In the mid-1980s at Jumbolair, he would fly in 63 baby elephants from Zimbabwe using a Boeing 707, keep a gorilla and house many alligators, crocodiles and rattlesnakes.
The Nautilus invention made Jones a wealthy man. He sold the company in 1986 and founded MedX - which focused on spinal rehabilitation - the next year. He sold MedX in 1996.
Terri Jones-Thayer - now co-owner of Jumbolair Aviation Estates with her husband, Jeremy - credited her own business and personal accomplishments to Jones, whom she married at 18. They remained married until Jones-Thayer was 27.
Although they divorced in the 1980s, Jones-Thayer remained close to her ex-husband, she said.
Flying lessons became life lessons, she said. "He taught me to fly, and every time I'd want to quit and give up, he was always behind me, saying, 'Don't quit, you can do this.' I'm so glad he believed in me, even when I didn't."
Jones was a natural gambler in business, she said. "He took risks. He would throw it all on the table. He always told me if you've got a dream go out there and do it."
Despite the millions he earned from the Nautilus and MedX companies he founded, "Money never meant anything to him," Jones-Thayer said. "He said money was a tool to make dreams come true. I think he accomplished all his dreams. "
�I hope that Arthur Jones' contributions in the fields of fitness, sports medicine, exercise physiology and orthopedic rehabilitation will be recognized and appreciated," said MedX executive Jim Flanagan, who worked with Jones from 1971 to 1996.
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Book excerpt:
Arthur Jones
No one person had greater impact on fitness training than Arthur Jones. He challenged and changed the attitudes of millions of people throughout the world. Beginning, in the 1970’s with the invention of Nautilus Exercise Machines. Even his critics grudgingly give him credit for sparking a renaissance in the design of exercise equipment and exercise concepts.
Before, the invention of Nautilus equipment, the standard form of progressive resistance training was the barbell. Barbells remain the most popular form of exercise throughout the world. Primarily because of its low cost, the great variety of exercises it adapts to, and its durability. It has enjoyed widespread popularity for more than a hundred years.
Arthur Jones has often stated that Nautilus equipment is "nothing more than an improved barbell” An understatement, if I ever heard one. Comparing a barbell to Nautilus equipment is like comparing an abacus to a computer.
Credited by many as being a mechanical genius, Jones's quest to improve his personal fitness levels led to his analyzing the shortcomings of barbell training. "
Self-evident truth" gleaned from years of exercising with barbells led him to believe at least one major flaw existed with barbell training. He believes barbells do not supply the basic requirement for exercise, resistance, throughout a full-range-of motion.
Because of this fact, many exercises performed with a barbell are virtually wasted motion, in that barbells exercise a muscle only during some of the movement rather than through the complete movement.
Even if resistance is supplied in a full range of the movement, because the resistance does not vary in relationship to the varying strength of the contracting muscle tissue.
It was evident to Arthur Jones that "if you are working a muscle through only part of the movement, you are not working it during other parts of the movement”
Arthur Jones set about designing a machine that would "supply resistance, throughout a complete range of motion. “ A victory achieved in 1948 when he designed a prototype of the first Nautilus machines.
A curl machine that exercised the biceps of the upper arm was installed in the Y.M.C.A in Tulsa, Oklahoma Other interests then caused Mr. Jones to concentrate his energies elsewhere.
For two decades he pursued his interest in flying and capturing and exporting wild animals from areas of Mexico and Africa.
An article in the April 21, 1975, issue of Sports Illustrated magazine summed up his exploits: "Behind his disguise as Mr. Middle Age, Jones is an adventurer, airplane pilot, one time mercenary, movie maker, and inventor.
He has been bitten by (1) rattlesnakes, (2) lions, (3) men and other dangerous critters. He has married four times, been near death even more often and figures that there is hardly a country he has not visited-at least on a bombing run. "
Legend has it that Arthur Jones was marking time in Lake Helen, Florida, awaiting word on some equipment and belongings that were confiscated (Jones called it theft) by the government of Rhodesia because of a difference of opinion about his actions while he was there.
While trying to reclaim his roughly $ 2 million worth of airplanes, a helicopter, and motion picture equipment via "proper" channels he began to tinker with other prototypes.
The time was right; there were too many hours for a curious mind to lay idle. Self-imposed stress is a way of life for Arthur Jones. Prototype after prototype began to pile up, as one improvement after another upgraded the basic concept.
Working with friends and cronies, using each other as guinea pigs, they made an assault on building larger muscles and improving strength.
Many who contributed time, effort, and talent during this period have never received full credit for their contribution. They are the unsung heroes forgotten by time.
Therefore, it is in many instances: the contributions of many become less known than those few who get the credit.
Finally, after many false starts, a finished product emerged. The Nautilus pullover--torso model. Dubbed "the Blue Monster.” First unveiled at a weight lifting meet in Los Angeles.
Bodybuilders and weightlifters are notoriously slow to adapt to change. Yet, the impact of the machine was immediate. Enough curious, rational people attended that first showing to sow the seeds for a soon-to-be cult of Nautilus converts.
Among the first intellectual bodybuilders to grasp the significance of this new tool, was Ellington Darden. A young, blond, good-natured bodybuilder, known for his broad shoulders and for his exceptional chest expansion.
Many of you know him as Dr. Ellington Darden, author of some 45 books and former Director of Research for Nautilus/Sports Medical Industries. Dr. Darden refined and redirected the basic fitness concepts of Arthur Jones and made them acceptable to the public.
As a handful of rational-thinking individuals began to ally them with Arthur Jones and his invention, critics sprang to the attack. Bodybuilders, the most gullible of exercise fanatics, were slow to adapt Nautilus equipment or exercise concepts to their training regimen.
They were methodically brainwashed by publishers of "muscle mags” to avoid any use of this new equipment.
Muscle & Fitness Magazine publisher, Joe Weider, began a series of articles supposedly authored by the "top" bodybuilders of that time. In these articles, the “stars" rapped with Mr. Weider. Each one explained his view of Nautilus.
Vince Gironda, the iron guru, was quoted: “The basic technical concept is erroneous; ...it is far too costly for what little it can do; and. . . Its appearance alone turns many persons away-frightens and confuses them."
Obviously, Mr. Gironda felt that the bodybuilders of that time were a group of intellectual and emotional wimps, and could be frightened and confused by looking at a machine.
Luckily, the intellectual level of the 1980's bodybuilder has improved, and they can "comprehend" the value of Nautilus.
Frank Zane supposedly said, "These Nautilus machines are mainly a gimmick. I actually dislocated my right shoulder." Mr. Zane evidently changed his mind and is shown using Nautilus equipment in his present training, it is alleged that he has purchased several machines for his in-home use.
Ken Waller, a Mr. Olympia competitor: "I lost about three-quarters of an inch from my arms!" Roger Callard said: "Everyone I know who used these machines extensively became smooth” Present day bodybuilders know that becoming "smooth" generally reflects excess eating in proportion to energy expenditure.
Arnold Schwarzenegger, everybody's Mr. Olympia and star of the movie,
The Terminator (and others), and presently the Governor of California, did his best to discredit Nautilus. He said: "I don't feel that the Nautilus machines even come close to training with the standard barbell, dumbbells and pulley equipment It is my honest opinion there is no comparison at all."
It is important to note that Mr. Schwarzenegger, in a letter printed in the February 1971, issue of Iron Man magazine quotes him as saying: "Mr. Jones just read me your letter which you wrote to him complaining about the facts he published regarding his new machines and training methods, and I laughed about your complaints because they don't make sense.”
“That’s the best advice I can give you is: visit Mr. Jones and try his machines yourself. Because that's the way I did it I gained four pounds and increased my arm size in the first three days of training on the new equipment, and I am making immediate arrangements with Mr. Jones to obtain several of his machines for my use in California.
If this is not my true opinion, then I will give up all of the titles I have won in the past I really believe that the new machines are fantastic. Otherwise, I would not write this.”
The letter was signed: Arnold Schwarzenegger, five times Mr. Universe, Mr. World Mr. Olympia Check it out yourself in the issue of Iron Man Magazine mentioned above.
During the early 1970's, many of the country's best-built men journeyed to DeLand Florida, to investigate Nautilus equipment. Most, unfortunately, did not comprehend either the machines or the exercise concepts.
Those concepts were a radical departure from the standard exercise programs of that time.
At the time, almost everyone connected with progressive exercise was training for several hours per day and at least three days per week. Arthur Jones was recommending less than two hours PER WEEK.
He defined many of the common problems shared by trainees in his classic books: Nautilus Training Principles, Bulletin #1 and Bulletin #2.
After logically defining the problems, he went one-step beyond; he offered sophisticated training methods, which he claimed would benefit everyone.
Nautilus Bulletin # 1, Chapter 2, "Basic Physics of Conventional Exercise Methods" clearly explained the fundamental problem encountered in using conventional barbells: “Almost all conventional exercises are based upon resistance provided by gravity.
Such resistance is unidirectional This limitation in direction of resistance is probably the greatest limiting factor affecting most exercises since it thus becomes impossible to involve more than a small percentage of the total number of fibers contained in a particular muscular structure."
He continued: "While the resistance is provided in only one direction, the involved body parts are rotating; in effect, you are trying to oppose a rotational form of movement with a reciprocal form of resistance, while proceeding in a straight line." It was that one basic fact that led to the invention and design of Nautilus. "Function dictates design" was a basic precept of the inventor's goals.
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Countless design hours led to major changes in the shape of the new machines and their "heart," the Nautilus cam. The Nautilus cam provides the variable rotational resistance, improving muscle involvement during exercise.
Some older prototypes of the pullover machines required several "helpers" to get the trainee in and out of the machine. The cam configuration was such that it measured several feet in diameter.
Now, the cams are now only several inches in diameter and the machines are adaptable to any body size. Many improvements took place since the first public appearance of Nautilus machines at the show in Los Angeles.
Original cams took a form that resembled the inner chamber of a nautilus seashell. Thus, the name Nautilus, used for the name of the equipment. Now, the cams are manufactured of aluminum.
The original cams became an identifying trademark. Rings and necklaces were custom designed and worn by many Nautilus pioneers.
Eager to test the validity of his inventions and exercise concepts, Mr. Jones set up a group of machines in an old Quonset hut on the DeLand High School campus. There, working with scores of fitness pioneers, continuous research reshaped the machines and the exercise concepts.
Everyone was welcome to participate in these test projects. It seemed that there was always an eager disciple around to put a subject through the program, of what was eventually termed, high-intensity exercise.
Bodybuilder Mike Mentzer, a Jones convert, pioneered a version of high intensity he termed “Heavy Duty.” Those early workouts are accurately described as, brutal.
Strongmen came from throughout the country to test the machines and question the sanity of Guru Jones. Because the workout and training pace were 180 percent out-of-phase with other training concepts, many which tried them, became nauseous.
So intense were the workouts. Understandably, many refused to continue this method of training.
Misguided Nautilus instructors still get their kicks by attempting these outdated techniques. Who, in his right mind would or could, give 100 percent effort during every exercise.
Few had the mental discipline to reach down inside and drive themselves into physical obliteration.
One who possessed this ability was teenager Casey Viator. Arthur Jones personally trained Casey. Blessed with extraordinary genetics, the intense, one-on-one training produced one of the most powerful and muscular physiques of all time.
Casey was driven "beyond failure" by the prodding Jones who pulled no punches, and spared no feelings.
A master of psychology, Jones would manipulate Casey during a workout in which squats with 500 pounds for 20 repetitions and barbell curls with 225 pounds reportedly became child's play. At a height of 5'8", Viator claimed measurements that were enormous.
His arms taped at 193/8", his chest at 50", waist 311/2", 28" thighs, and 18"calves. The mystique of Casey Viator played an important role in the early success of Nautilus. Often referred to by Arthur Jones as: "Our resident genetic freak,” Casey and Arthur eventually parted company.
Years later, Casey is revered as one of the greatest bodybuilders of all time.
Iron Man magazine published many articles by Arthur Jones in the 1970's. Arthur Jones productions became Nautilus Sports/Medical Industries. An important name change, it created a national image, needed to expand the interest in Nautilus equipment to larger markets such as colleges, hospitals, and for use in the corporate fitness area.
Articles and advertisements, first in Iron Man magazine and later in Athletic Journal, spread the Nautilus gospel. For many years, every issue contained articles, updates, franchise information, and letters of endorsement, controversial editorials, and the expected muckraking.
Meanwhile, at Nautilus Headquarters in Florida, several key men joined the Nautilus staff. Ed Farnham became general manager, and played a major role in creating and protecting the Nautilus image and his own for over a decade.
Ellington Darden began to publish books consolidating the Nautilus concepts, giving them) balance and substance. Except for Arthur Jones, Dr. Darden is the person that visitors to Nautilus Headquarters were most eager to meet. Dr. Darden led what many people (including me) would define as an idealistic lifestyle.
Living only a five-minute commute, by battered bicycle, to his office at Nautilus Headquarters, he was never far from his position at the right hand of Arthur Jones.
A world traveler, the image of him pedaling a rusty balloon-tired bike through the streets of Lake Helen always brings a smile to my face.
Jim Flanagan, the present general manager, replaced Ed Farnham, was with the company since its inception, until its sale in about 1986. An impressive giant of a man at 6'5" and extremely broad-shouldered his calm, deliberate, and courteous manner of handling clients won him respect throughout the country, and in foreign lands.
Unlike some of his contemporaries who remain in virtual isolation at Nautilus Headquarters, Big Jim has kept his finger on the pulse of the fitness business by crisscrossing the country, speaking at clinics and trade shows.
After the sale of the Nautilus Company, Jim became associated with the MedX Company. Arthur Jones founded this company after the sale of his Nautilus Company.
MedX equipment was the evolution of Nautilus equipment and initially focused on the medical industry. The equipment was a major breakthrough in the testing and rehabilitation of lumbar spine and cervical spine injuries. Eventually, other equipment was focused on the knee and other areas of the body.
Beginning in late 1989 and through the 1990’s, I was fortunate to become, the Regional Director, of Northern California for MedX West and helped pioneer advanced testing and rehabilitation exercise based in MedX technology and rehabilitative procedures.
Responsible only to Arthur Jones, Dan Baldwin wielded considerable power within the Nautilus organization. In charge of the manufacturing plant in Virginia, his keen eye for detail and perfection are evident in the quality control of Nautilus equipment. He was also instrumental in the development of Nautilus Magazine.
Dick Butkus, the former mauling linebacker of the Chicago Bears and a mainstay of the Miller Lite commercials also served as a low- key representative for Nautilus, although his role was not widely known at the time.
Only after a highly publicized trial of Arthur Jones for Income tax evasion was, it revealed (by the Orlando Sentinel in Florida) that Dick Butkus was officially on the Nautilus payroll.
That trial resulted in a victory for Arthur Jones over the Internal Revenue Service. The judgment was, not guilty.
These men and others whose commitment was as sincere but shorter lived formed the core of the empire. During my tenure with Nautilus Headquarters, I had the advantage of observing the inner-workings of the company.
To this day, I must admit that I admire the commitment exhibited by the "Nautilus purists.” It would be impossible to find a more dedicated, or more intense group in any international corporation.
The commotion caused by their leader Arthur Jones has given rise to many stories, some fact, and some fiction. Most I will hold for another time. Some I will share in this book.
As one example, at a seminar I attended on the campus of Duke University when heckled by a non-believer in the audience, Arthur Jones challenged the larger-framed man to "Step outside, and we will see whose training methods work better." The heckler decided not to check out the feisty Mr. Jones. Smart move!
Anyone, who has seen him in action, knows that he can be intense, demanding, profane, humorous, unsympathetic to bunglers, and possess a temper and tongue that can render an adversary senseless. At other times, he is a very humorous man.
One time, for example, he decided to videotape a television program on one of his HUGE rattlesnakes. Television cameras were set up for the event at the Nautilus television studios.
One camera, with a telephoto lens manned by master-camera man Harry L. was at the farthest end of a one hundred foot long hall, poised to record the event.
Harry’s camera aimed down the long hall to a small stage set that was to be the focal point of the taping. The set consisted of two chairs with a small platform about two feet high, between them.
The plan was for Arthur to place the snake on the platform in a coiled position, while Mary P. sat in one chair and Arthur in the other, with the snake between them, while they discussed rattlesnakes. The snake had other ideas.
A group of about 20 employees and visitors began to gather around the set. Up to a point, all went fairly well.
Arthur carried the snake from its second-floor cage in the Serpentarium, down a flight of about 20 stairs, into the stage setting.
This feat was one to watch, accomplished with bare hands and a long stick, curved on one end. This snake stick was the only barrier between Mr. Jones, the increasingly nervous onlookers and the soon to be agitated snake.
Down the stairs he came, the sea of onlookers parting quickly to let him pass. Winding his way through the crowd, he placed the snake carefully on the platform between the chairs. At this time, the snake began having second thoughts about the entire event.
Mary P., standing out of camera range was looking about as calm as you might expect under the circumstances. Mary had previous experience working with a mixture of animals during the videotaping of various wild life programs at Nautilus Television.
Now, Arthur was not sitting in one of the chairs, the snake by his side. Mary was sitting on the other side of the snake, which is between her and Arthur. Its rattling was beginning to make people very nervous, its intensity threateningly increasing.
Harry, the camera man, under fire to focus the camera, had his hands full tying to take orders from an increasingly agitated Arthur Jones as well as a director in a video booth who is giving Harry orders via the headset Harry is wearing.
The onlookers, me among them, and Joe Weider, publisher of Muscle & Fitness Magazine, were now edging away from the stage. Everyone was beginning to make eye contact with each other, as if silently asking “Is this safe?”
For a short time, everything seemed settled. Mary and Arthur were in their respective chairs. Even the rattlesnake seemed to like the attention. But, not for long!
Then, something got the snake’s attention. It decided to vamoose. First plunking off the platform onto the floor, it quickly slithered toward the crowd. People scattered in all directions.
As the snake attempted to head for an open door, Arthur kept pulling it back into the room by its tail. He picked its tail up and plopped it back on the floor as if the snake were a stick.
Arthur decided it was time to measure the sucker. He began screaming for someone to hold one end of a tape measure against the floor near the snake’s tail “Hold the end of the tape right here,” he barked.
I am think to myself, “Here’s my chance to endear myself to Mr. Jones and prove I am not afraid of a 15-foot rattlesnake. However, in a moment of more lucid thinking, I decide it is a no-no. I am not as dumb as I look. I couldn’t be!
Finally, someone stepped forward and put his foot on the end of the tape. He was told again in no uncertain terms, and in what can best be described as “barracks language” “I said to hold the ######&%$#$%% tape; I did not say step on it”
The brave soul knelt down and held the tape. The snake is pulled in line with the tape measure, and the measurement taken. All was going well. But now it was decided to get a picture of the snake with Arthur holding it at arms length.
Everyone adjourned to the next room. One of the large television studios, containing a stage that rises from the floor up to a level of about 4 feet. Up on the stage walked Arthur Jones, snake in hand.
Decades of snake handling were apparent in the way Arthur Jones handled the snake’s elusive head, with the snake stick. About a foot from its end, the stick has a curve resembling a fishhook.
Holding the snake in his hand, Arthur skilfully manoeuvred the curved end of the stick to keep a respectable distance between the snake’s mouth and Arthur’s body.
He walked to the front of the stage so that when the snake was held at the height of Arthur’s head, the snake’s body stretched below the level of the stage.
As the snake returned to its cage on the second floor, the employees began to filter back to their respective jobs. They have just witnessed their leader taunt death and survive.
Paul H., a resident Nautilus cameraman, snapped pictures of the event. Everyone became relaxed, beginning to realize what he or she had witnessed.
As the snake returned to its cage on the second floor, the employees began to filter back to their respective jobs. They have just witnessed their leader defy death and win. A heady feeling!
The ease Arthur displayed when handling he snake had a lasting effect on me. It was one of those, “if he can do it, I can do it” feelings. Several months later, I did have a chance to test my snake-handling skill.
Stopping by my house to pick up my exercise clothes, my friend Doug Feed and I, were alerted by a neighbor, that a large rattlesnake was “up the road in the bushes.” Doug, who worked for Nautilus and was responsible for feeding and grooming the 60 or so crocodiles kept on the Nautilus premises in Lake Helen, grabbed a rake and took off, up the road to confront the rattlesnake. I followed, with a garden hoe in hand.
Sure enough, there was a rather large snake, coiled in the brush, and apparently very angry. Doug and I, showing no fear and perhaps a complete lack of common sense, began to attempt to pin the snake and drag it out of the woods. All the time, the snake was letting us know that it did not want to go.
We sent a neighbor back to my house to get a large, metal garbage can.
Our plan was to drag the snake out of the woods, using our gardening tools, place it in the metal can, place a lid on its top, and take the snake to Arthur Jones. Easier said than done!
The snake coiled, struck at us several times, wrapped itself around small trees, and violently shook its rattlers. We persisted. Finally, we dragged the snake into the over-turned garbage can and we turned the can upright.
Then, after shaking each other’s hands in congratulations of our big-game capture, we placed the lid on the can. Doug took one handle, I took the other and we walked back to my car. The violent rattling of the snake echoed from the metal can. The snake was very upset with its new environment.
At this point, we were fearless. There was no way the snake could hurt us now. Unless, it could bite through the metal can. We climbed into my car, I sat in the driver’s seat and Doug was on the passenger’s side. The metal can with the snake inside was on Doug’s lap. We were in a Honda Prelude, not a heck of a lot of room under ordinary circumstances and less room; given the large can the seating was snug.
Confident, and happy about our capture, we started the drive back to Nautilus Headquarters. We joked that this gift for Arthur should insure our job for quite a while. We were in the speeding car for only a few minutes, when the loud rattling of the snake ceased and the metal can stopped vibrating.
All was quiet, except for the piercing pounding of our hearts, as we realized that we had failed to check the bottom of the can for any holes!!!!
At the same instant, my eyes and Doug’s met. I am thinking that it is all over for Doug. What will I tell his wife, Lydia and his children?
Pulling the car quickly to the side of the road, we jumped out and inspected the bottom of the can. All was well. No holes! Yahoo! We climbed back into the car, continued our journey and presented Arthur with the snake.
It turned out that the snake was a pregnant female and of a kind not in the Nautilus snake collection. To the best of my knowledge, it is still in the collection. Not many Nautilus employees can make that statement, or would want to.
Arthur Jones continues his love affair with snakes and crocodiles. He recently flew to Africa in his 727 and brought back to his farm in Ocala, Florida, a herd of elephants. They now share the farm with horses, huge crocodiles, a gorilla, and assorted other animals. A benevolent Mr. Jones saved them from possible extinction.
From rather humble beginnings, Nautilus has grown into a fitness empire. Along with an expanded line of commercial Nautilus equipment, a new market appeared. The in-home market projected as a multi-billion dollar market over the coming years, Nautilus plans to get its share.
Several in-home machines are presently available; others planned. Less expensive machines than the “standard” Nautilus models, intended for the high school and college market, are presently available. These “leverage” machines and the “infimetric” models should enable Nautilus to hold its market share.
Arthur Jones and Nautilus have travelled a long way.
The impact on fitness has been considerable. Nautilus was the right invention, at the right time.
It is doubtful however, if Nautilus would have succeeded without the aggressive, perceptive
Mr. Jones as the focal point. His ability to explain, in simple, logical terms, the flaws that were prevalent in fitness tools and exercise concepts, combined with his ability to offer alternatives, is as important in the success of Nautilus as his invention of the Nautilus equipment.
He has often said (tongue in cheek), “There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles.” If he truly believes this, he has overlooked his most obvious gift; there is nothing more valuable than a rational mind capable of deductive logic.
His ability to perceive abstract concepts and integrate them into useful information is what set him above his contemporaries.
A preferred essay of Arthur Jones, “The Hunting of the Slan,” by Edgar Allan Foe, may sum up his view of life:
“I have sometimes amused myself by endeavouring to fancy what would be the fate of any individual gifted, or rather accursed, with an intellect very far superior to that of his race. Of course, he would not be conscious of his superiority nor could he (if otherwise constituted as man is) help manifesting his consciousness.
Thus, he would make himself enemies at all points. And since his opinions and speculations would likely differ from those of all mankind—that he would be considered a madman, is evident.
How horribly painful such a condition! Hell could invent no greater torture than that of being charged with abnormal weakness on account of being abnormally strong.
In like manner, nothing can be clearer than that a very generous spirit—truly feeling what all merely profess—must inevitably find itself misconceived on every direction—its motives misinterpreted.
Just as extremeness of intelligence would be thought fatuity, so excess of chivalry could not fail of being looked upon as meanness in its last degree—so with other virtues. This subject is a painful one indeed. That individuals have so soared about the plane of their race is scarcely to be questioned; but, in looking back through history for traces of their existence, we should pass over all biographies of ‘the good and the great,” while we search carefully the slight records of wretches who died prison, in Bedlam, or upon the gallows.”
Many people are on record as detractors of Arthur Jones. I am not one of them.
I first met him in the early 70’s, worked for him in the 80’s, and 90’s. Also, felt fortunate to spend much time observing and talking with him in Lake Helen, flew in his Citation Jet, with him as the pilot, during a massive lightening and thunder storm when flying into San Francisco.
Stayed at his home in Ocala, Florida, ate with him in a restaurant in Mexico as mice ran across the floor, and was privileged to share many a coffee with him, while marvelling at his insightful and powerful intellect.
At no time did he ever treat me with disrespect. He was a very fair and generous employer who freely shared his money and thoughts.
He is the type of man who, should you be faced with going to war to protect your family and the country, you would hope to have a man like him at your side.
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RIP
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Want to see pictures of his equipment and other stuff go to www.arthurjonesexercise. com. Unreal photos of some of the largest equipment you will ever see. i just spent over an hour on the phone with Pete taking about his days training at Jones's Florida Delano location with Sergio, Casey. He knew all about the piston whipping story. There was a pic of Pete on the leg extension with Jones at a seminar. Unreal story about this guy. Pete while training there drew some drawings of equipment for plate loaded and using cams. Gary got ahold of the drawings and later created Hammer
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Nautilus still is a company building gym equipment, but, thankfully, have replaced most chains with belt drives! Much cleaner and long-lasting in gyms. Medx is still a viable company building gym equipment and medical equipment.
Jones was convincing and argumentative. A pity, in a way, because his legacy re bodybuilding is not as pronounced as his contribution to professional gym equipment. He literally changed the way we perceive gyms and fitness centers. I doubt his high intensity theory is correct. Oh, it does have a place in hypertrophy theory, but if it were true it would have been embraced by now by rank and file bodybuilders. I suppose his main message was that unless you did something extraordinary you were unlikely to grow or get stronger. His ideas re volume do not stand up in research, although this is controversial. There is very little research re hypertrophy in large muscles.
Arthur apparently preferred to spend money on research instead of paying taxes to a Democratic government. I wonder what will happen to all of those archives. It would be a pity if that important research wasn't made public at some stage. Arthur came from a medical family but shunned education himself. He was even hostile to many academics who he could dismiss with his exceptional mind. Unfortunately, believing that something is true isn't good enough. You have to be right as well. I suspect that Arthur often found evidence to support his theories and not the other way around. He certainly didn't find many who could refute his beliefs and history is the poorer for that.
What cannot be ignored is that he took the premier bodybuilder in the world and made him even better. This refers to the great Sergio Oliva back in 1971-72. Sergio lost a controversial Mr Olympia in Germany but was clearly at his best. I suppose that result led to Arthur washing his hands of bodybuilding. Sergio went back to Chicago but didn't keep doing the Jones method. Later he regretted this because he never was that good after that. Jones had a way of motivating people when he personally supervised them. His encouragement saw some train way beyond anything they could generate by themselves. Jones used giant sets done with little or no rest between exercises, yet using heavy resistance throughout. This is far from his advocated one maximum set. The requirements for super-hypertrophy are not merely what some hypothesize but are locked away in the cellular structures of muscles. Arthur seemed to be as close as anyone to finding that key.
HIT or high intensity training is an offshoot of Jones and kept alive by Ellington Darden and others. Mike Mentzer also used the Jones principles that he assumed were both correct and philosophically necessary. All these thinkers are probably not completely correct. The vast majority of bodybuilders do not train in HIT fashion but of course incorporate many of those ideas in various volume type programs.
Many accuse bodybuilders of being thick. If HIT was required to build the largest muscles then everyone would have been doing just that for decades now. This is clearly not what most do. In fact, it is difficult to find any bodybuilding champion training the way Darden, Mentzer and Jones advocated.
I don't know of anyone in the Irongame who is a peer of Arthur Jones. That pretty much sums up where Arthur stood in our community. Funny that the two guys who fulfilled their dreams through bodybuilding and gyms both had names beginning with 'A'.
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Arthur Jones was a very interesting man indeed ! He certainly will be missed ... R.I.P
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I doubt his high intensity theory is correct. Oh, it does have a place in hypertrophy theory, but if it were true it would have been embraced by now by rank and file bodybuilders. I suppose his main message was that unless you did something extraordinary you were unlikely to grow or get stronger. His ideas re volume do not stand up in research, although this is controversial. There is very little research re hypertrophy in large muscles.
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What's missing from this and other assessments like it is balance, in place of which is conjecture. Whether HIT's effective is entirely debatable; any method that effectively exhausts the muscle works IMO.
The more likely reason HIT isn't followed by most BBs has little to do with efficacy and everything to do with the gruelling nature of the training, when done correctly. Most can't get to the right degree of intensity AKA torture after years of standard training, nor are they able to maintain that intensity for any length of time.
There were other factors, such as personal taste, the "enjoyment" & pacing of volume training that is lacking with the comparatively brusque, brief workouts involved with HIT. The comfort factor found in standard types of training protocols is completely absent in HIT, replaced by training that's over almost before it's begun that thanks to the intensity involved can leave practitioners in a stupor if done correctly. Sergio was sorry he didn't continue with HIT but deep down was also glad to be done with it i suspect; sans machines he could've still continued HIT with his training partner if the desire were really there.
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This isn't the thread to debate HIT theory. What amuses me is those who believe in HIT always argue that those who failed to grow simply weren't training intensely enough. What a pity the scientists are not interested enough to test various theories. If they did we wouldn't have to waste so much time on the internet discussion boards debating HIT and other methods.
When Arthur put ads in Ironman they were read just as much as the stories and articles were. Arthur said he could sell shit if it was marketed properly. He was right, too. Exercise science has advanced in molecular research since Arthur was active in bodybuilding theory. I doubt his theory will be the cornerstone of hypertrophy training. That is the trouble with philosophy, if the theory doesn't work then there is something wrong with the theory. Arthur never had much success with hypertrophy on his own body but he could convince anyone else of anything. I bet that disappointed him.
What remains as part of exercise theory are the concepts that Arthur introduced or stressed. His machines were never embraced by the rank and file bodybuilders who still proclaim to this day that they prefer free weights. That would have been grounds enough for Arthur to abandon bodybuilders as knuckleheads. Mike Mentzer is gone so there aren't too many left to champion the ideas that Arthur made popular. Ellington Darden still publishes books on HIT so I guess he makes a living from that enterprise.
I am not judging Arthur but I have always challenged theories and that is also something that Arthur urged us all to do.
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OK, I understand Jones liked guns, but why the fuck, would he need a machine gun to feed a baby elephant?
He was in very dangerous places in the world and needed to protect himself.
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He was in very dangerous places in the world and needed to protect himself.
I thought I heard he lived on a "farm" with alot of animals that were being poached so he had to carry the gun to protect himself and the animals....guy was intense if you believe the stories about him. RIP. I love reading his stuff.
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Jones was a VERY interesting man.
You can read a bit more about him in this interview I did with Ellington Darden, PhD.
http://www.atlargenutrition.com/ellington_darden_interview.php
You can download the .pdf file of Jones book "and the gods laughed" from the internet. EXTREMELY good read.
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OK, I understand Jones liked guns, but why the fuck, would he need a machine gun to feed a baby elephant?
Africa was a very dangerous place in the 40's, 50's and 60's.
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what was the cause of death? steroid related?
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Arthur never had much success with hypertrophy on his own body but he could convince anyone else of anything. I bet that disappointed him.
From looking at earlier photos I would say he did have success with hypertrophy. He may not have looked like the BB'ers of that era(he didn't use hormones) but still above average size.
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Neither Arthur, Peary Rader, Bob Hoffman, Bob Kennedy, or Ben Weider were bodybuilders. Joe did compete in the good old days. Arthur did do some training so I guess that counts. However, he didn't really practice what he preached because muscles were a low priority for him. He seemed to be lean most of his life and perhaps that was the limiting factor for much size.
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Neither Arthur, Peary Rader, Bob Hoffman, Bob Kennedy, or Ben Weider were bodybuilders. Joe did compete in the good old days. Arthur did do some training so I guess that counts. However, he didn't really practice what he preached because muscles were a low priority for him. He seemed to be lean most of his life and perhaps that was the limiting factor for much size.
He also detested steroids Vince.
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He also detested steroids Vince.
his entire success was based on steroid users ie viator, mentzer, coe, even oliva. he did hype hit as a program that didn't require steroids, but i doubt he actually believed that nonsense. jones was pure salesman.
if it weren't for steroids people would have realized that nautilus was less effective than free weights and probably not bought into it in the first place. as it was he had all his bbers pictured using the equipment and gave lecture after lecture on the advantages of nautilus over free weights, propping up his juiced bbers as exhibits.
it worked and the rest is history.
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Arthur wrote about muscles in a logical way. I recall how he used a train composed of boxcars to illustrate his contraction ideas. That was a poor analogy because of the sliding filament theory. What he did know was that he was smarter than most jocks who were exercise experts and he could out argue any of them. Today things are totally different and the language of exercise science is complex and difficult to comprehend. It is a very different world at the cellular level than Arthur or anyone else imagined 30 years ago.
The test of any theory is does it work? The best that can be claimed by HIT is that it works some of the time with some people. In other words, the theory is literally not correct. If you have falsehoods in your premises you can end up with both true and false conclusions. All the logic in the world cannot change the way things are in reality. When dealing with complex phenomena like bodybuilding it is exceeding difficult to keep everything the same and alter one factor and test for that. Without doing rigorous testing it is unlikely that anyone will discover anything approaching an exact science of anything.
Bodybuilding at the highest level today has been contaminated by drug use. There is no way to know exactly what is causing the increases in muscle size. I have written that it is possible to grow rapidly without using any drugs or supplements and people have labelled me crazy. Rapid, sustained growth is the test of hypertrophy theory. Arthur predicted HIT would revolutionize bodybuilding and we would see champions within a few years using HIT and Nautilus machines. It didn't happen. Drugs became the biggest factor in professional bodybuilding and training became secondary.
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his entire success was based on steroid users ie viator, mentzer, coe, even oliva. he did hype hit as a program that didn't require steroids, but i doubt he actually believed that nonsense. jones was pure salesman.
if it weren't for steroids people would have realized that nautilus was less effective than free weights and probably not bought into it in the first place. as it was he had all his bbers pictured using the equipment and gave lecture after lecture on the advantages of nautilus over free weights, propping up his juiced bbers as exhibits.
it worked and the rest is history.
One-sided speculation.
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This isn't the thread to debate HIT theory. What amuses me is those who believe in HIT always argue that those who failed to grow simply weren't training intensely enough. What a pity the scientists are not interested enough to test various theories. If they did we wouldn't have to waste so much time on the internet discussion boards debating HIT and other methods.
When Arthur put ads in Ironman they were read just as much as the stories and articles were. Arthur said he could sell shit if it was marketed properly. He was right, too. Exercise science has advanced in molecular research since Arthur was active in bodybuilding theory. I doubt his theory will be the cornerstone of hypertrophy training. That is the trouble with philosophy, if the theory doesn't work then there is something wrong with the theory. Arthur never had much success with hypertrophy on his own body but he could convince anyone else of anything. I bet that disappointed him.
What remains as part of exercise theory are the concepts that Arthur introduced or stressed. His machines were never embraced by the rank and file bodybuilders who still proclaim to this day that they prefer free weights. That would have been grounds enough for Arthur to abandon bodybuilders as knuckleheads. Mike Mentzer is gone so there aren't too many left to champion the ideas that Arthur made popular. Ellington Darden still publishes books on HIT so I guess he makes a living from that enterprise.
I am not judging Arthur but I have always challenged theories and that is also something that Arthur urged us all to do.
If this isn't the place to discuss theory then why was this brought up in the first place, and if it is, be fair and present more than one-dimensional critiques and judgements. With little to support your views this is nothing more than an unnecessary diatribe.
A fairer apraisal would be that it was another way to achieve the same goals.
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Neither Arthur, Peary Rader, Bob Hoffman, Bob Kennedy, or Ben Weider were bodybuilders. Joe did compete in the good old days. Arthur did do some training so I guess that counts. However, he didn't really practice what he preached because muscles were a low priority for him. He seemed to be lean most of his life and perhaps that was the limiting factor for much size.
If you read Arthur's autobiography you will see he enjoyed weight training and trained on and off for years but when he did train he practiced what he preached. He stated he was 205lbs in muscular condition with a little over 17 inch arms at his peak, you don't get that way from very little training. Unlike BB'ers he had other interest that took up his time and didn't allow for training. In my earlier post with pics you can see he had a good amount of muscular size on him. Perhaps if he trained continuously year after year he would have even been bigger.
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I think we can talk about the contributions of Arthur Jones and comment on what has happened to theories he presented. Those of us who were current with what Arthur wrote did wonder if his principles would spread to the bodybuilders. It never happened. Just about everyone uses volume of one kind or another. Arthur's dream of brief workouts was wishful thinking. That is not what big muscles are for. The relationship between strength and large size diminishes beyond a certain size. There after it is related to muscular endurance and thus, volume, and not intensity is the key factor. What seemed to make sense when Arthur wrote about it turned out not to be what was found in bodybuilders. That he took Sergio to a new level is mainly because he did something extraordinary with Sergio and put those muscles under severe tension for several minutes.
If Arthur had 17 inch arms at his peak we would have seen images of them by now. I never felt like Arthur respected bodybuilders. He certainly dismissed most of them, including Bill Pearl, who avoided controversy thoughout his long career.
I think Arthur's legacy will be for his contributions to exercise equipment. His Medx testing equipment set a new standard for professional equipment. He insisted that mechanics had to be friendly to the human anatomy and forever after all manufacturers tried harder to get machines that worked properly. We owe a lot of that to Arthur Jones.
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Obviously besides having some good ideas he was a major bullshitter & obnoxious know-all, which is part of the HIT legacy:
Arthur Jones; Revolutionized Exercise Industry
Washington Post
Thursday, August 30, 2007
Arthur Jones, 80, the swashbuckling inventor of Nautilus exercise equipment, which revolutionized strength training by replacing the dead weight of barbells with a variable resistance technique, died Aug. 28 at his home in Ocala, Fla. No cause of death was reported.
Gruff and profane, Mr. Jones did not fit the image of the creator of the machines used by svelte, leotard-wearing exercise enthusiasts. He wore horn-rimmed glasses and ill-fitting pants. He spent his early life hunting big game for zoos and collectors. He made television shows and a movie, all geared to outdoors adventure.
It was his invention of the Nautilus that made his fortune and reshaped the world's physique. It took bodybuilding out of the subculture of dank gyms and bulging muscles and ushered in an era that brought sedentary office workers into brightly lit fitness centers.
The creation was born of frustration. Living in the Tulsa YMCA in 1948, he routinely became irritated when the barbells and exercise regimes then in vogue failed to give him the big muscles he sought.
"I ended up with the arms and legs of a gorilla on the body of a spider monkey," he told Forbes magazine in 1983. "I figured there was something wrong with the exercise tool."
One day, instead of quitting when he reached a plateau, he cut his routine in half and was surprised to see results. Deducing that muscles need rest to recover and that leverage affects strength, he began experimenting. He introduced his product in 1970 at a Los Angeles weight-lifting convention and dubbed it the Nautilus, after the nautilus seashell, which resembles the kidney-shaped cam that was his breakthrough development.
The machines and the company he formed to sell them made him a multimillionaire and landed him on the Forbes 400 list. At one point, financial analysts estimated that Nautilus was grossing $300 million annually.
With his new wealth, Mr. Jones bought 600 acres of north Florida property to house a private zoo containing 90 elephants, three rhinoceroses, a gorilla, 300 alligators, 400 crocodiles and three used Boeing 707 airliners. He founded a "fly-in" community in Ocala called Jumbolair Aviation Estates, whose most famous resident is actor John Travolta.
But Mr. Jones's flamboyant personality didn't play so well in the business world. In 1984, Adweek magazine said he spent $4.2 million on an ad campaign as a purported ploy to avoid making a profit and paying taxes. The Internal Revenue Service indicted him in 1981 with failing to pay federal income taxes in the 1970s.
As many as six former business partners and distributors accused him of threatening to kill them after disputes, which incurred a spate of lawsuits from distributors and retail accounts. Other distributors accused Nautilus of failing to ship merchandise they had paid for.
He also disastrously invested $70 million in a video studio, dubbed the Nautilus Television Network, which produced a talk show starring his friend G. Gordon Liddy, the chief of the Watergate "plumbers." Mr. Jones also made a vanity TV program starring himself, dubbed "Younger Women, Faster Airplanes and Bigger Crocodiles," which was also his unofficial motto. He had hoped to package the programs on videodisks, a technology that bombed.
He sold his share in the Nautilus business and began experimenting with a new invention, intended to analyze and exercise lumbar muscles for those who have lower-back pain. That invention turned into the company MedX.
"This is the first machine that truly isolates the muscles of the lower back," he told Business Week magazine. "My competitors who say otherwise are liars or fools -- or both. Let them sue me. I can't wait." Suspicious of the competitors, whom he called "thieves, frauds, fakers, slanderers and incompetents," he often carried a Colt .45.
"I've shot 630 elephants and 63 men, and I regret the elephants more," he told reporters in the 1970s.
Born to a well-off family in Arkansas, he was the son of two doctors. He started running away from home at a young age and dropped out of school in ninth grade. "I should have dropped out in sixth grade," he told Forbes.
He rode the rails, he later told interviewers, until enlisting in the Navy during World War II and serving in the Pacific. After the war, he launched a zoo in Slidell, La.
Somewhere along the way, he learned to fly and began collecting exotic animals, which he ferried to zoos, pet stores and researchers. He claimed run-ins with agencies such as the CIA and FBI, which he said accused him of running guns or bombs to Cuba.
For 12 years, business thrived. He made a series of TV programs that aired as "Wild Cargo" in the United States. In the mid-1960s, he moved his family to Rhodesia, where they lived two years until the government took exception to his wild-game business and seized his assets, forcing his return to the United States.
He had never formally studied physiology, but one of his daughters told People magazine that he kept a freezer full of frozen human limbs for research. He acknowledged that his politics were to the right of Attila the Hun and, while living in a state plagued by drug runners, advocated killing drug users.
"When I was broke, I was crazy," he said. "Now that I am rich, I'm eccentric."
Mr. Jones married six women -- all 16 to 20 years old at the time -- and divorced them all. At least four children survive him.
He sold Nautilus in 1986 for $23 million. He also sold MedX in 1996 and then retired. Among his other inventions were photographic vehicles and camera mounts and lenses.
"Specialization is for insects," he once snapped. "There is no limit to my abilities. I can do anything and do it well if I turn my mind to it."
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Arthur apparently said why own a gun if you don't have it when you need it! He did say that 'the next man who copies my designs is a dead man!' Seems to me he had a complex like some short guys have. Still, what a guy Arthur was. He did 'marry' Inge his last wife who wasn't young. I think she died a couple of years ago. She took those incredible photos of Sergio when he was training with Arthur. That news article mentioned heaps of stuff I didn't know about. We can only imagine what Arthur did to get around rules, regulations and paying taxes. To think that he used gym equipment to make a fortune is quite astonishing. He is the only guy who did that because all the other inventors didn't make much at all. Not that I know about, anyway.
I have no doubt a film will be made about his life. Maybe there are several stories to be told.
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If you have falsehoods in your premises you can end up with both true and false conclusions.
what are the falsehoods in h.i.t, vince?
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Anyone interested in Arthur Jones should read his autobiography here http://arthurjonesexercise.com/GodLaughs/GodLaughs.html
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One-sided speculation.
how i am i speculating? that is exactly what he did and he knew what he was doing.
the guy was not remotely interested in bbing promotion. he trained these top flight bbers to sell them as exhibits of the success of nautilus.
the problem with nautilus is that it fails to take into account that muscles require hard work and machines can only get you so far because they don't work the stabilisers and the prime movers become less efficient because they are not required to balance anything.
btw, great article
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how i am i speculating? that is exactly what he did and he knew what he was doing.
maybe the fact u said u dont bodybuild ???
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maybe the fact u said u dont bodybuild ???
i do bodybuild and i've doen a lot of it over the years.
i also told you who jones was previously when you thought mentzer invented h.i.t, remember?
when i said i'm not a bodybuilder, i meant that is not my priority and i don't compete.
wolfy, hedge, mason, magoo and a lot of other guys that post here aren't bbers either. does that mean they don't know what they're talking about?
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"beast" is a vicious cage fighter DL, don't mess with him because he'll fly you anywhere in the world to fight him.
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"beast" is a vicious cage fighter DL, don't mess with him because he'll fly you anywhere in the world to fight him.
you should get out of the basement and see the world scott.
there is much more to see than dirty windows and your mom's washing
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From reading various internet sites and posting on them I have to conclude that many have beliefs approaching religious zeal. When people get that passionate about methods they soon need rationalizations to sustain those beliefs. The scientist prefers to know the truth, whatever that may be. In my opinion, HIT and HST are not supported by either science or results. End of story. There is so much rubbish in bodybuilding beliefs that I don't know where to start. What cannot be denied is our sport has attracted more than its fair share of knuckleheads who wouldn't appreciate that they might be mistaken about basic phenomenon. All the words in the world cannot compensate for lack of muscle growth. Instead of looking for 'what makes sense' go out and try to find what actually causes growth without drugs and crap like that.
The reason bodybuilding is like a religion is because gains are mysterious and often do not occur after concerted, intense efforts. Believers soon have all sorts of theories about why they are not growing. Next, they believe you need drugs. Is it any wonder our 'sport' is a disgrace to the human movement industry.
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when i said i'm not a bodybuilder, i meant that is not my priority and i don't compete.
i had the impression u dont lift weights from the statement the other day...now that is clear...good.
U still need to read Mentzer's work to realise it is TOTALLY DIFFERENT TO JONES.
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In my opinion, HIT and HST are not supported by either science or results. End of story. industry.
and what scientific basis do the other approaches have?
also, they are not 'specific'. they say 'different things' work for 'different people'.
This is impossible and illogical statement. The reality says there has to be 'one correct' way , what changes is the persons response to that stimulus ( genetics).
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Always the jargon and excuses instead of real explanations. If Larry Scott realized he had shitty 'genetics' he never would have persisted and become twice Mr Olympia. He came up with new training methods to make his muscles grow bigger. Even Arnold did the same thing. Sergio was the true natural and even he said one of his brothers was more gifted than he was!
When people use phrases like 'do what works for you' we know that is not science but trial and error. Bodybuilding is more or less an anecdotal enterprise. There is nothing approaching a science anywhere to do found. The scientists don't care about maximum hypertrophy and that is just about the end of the story. 'Muscle' still is a dirty word in modern societies and universities. If 'fat' is an even dirtier word, pray tell what is good about the human body? Nothing short of a paradigm shift is going to change our sport/hobby/activity. In the meantime, there is plenty of 'evidence' to support beliefs that we are, collectively, obsessed, crazy, stupid guys lifting weights in front of a mirror.
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on another note,
HOW MUCH WOULD U SELL THESE PIECES OF EQUIPMENT U MAKE:
A Hack Squat Machine?
A smith Machine?
Leg Press?
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Don't make anything for sale. I install everything I make in my gym.
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Don't make anything for sale. I install everything I make in my gym.
well I am in Melbourne. which brand would u recomend for each of those equipment i mentioned?
also ur opinion on the nautilus pullover machine?
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and what scientific basis do the other approaches have?
also, they are not 'specific'. they say 'different things' work for 'different people'.
This is impossible and illogical statement. The reality says there has to be 'one correct' way , what changes is the persons response to that stimulus ( genetics).
Agreed yet he persists with this one-dimensional dogma, in preachy fashion.
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Arthur Jones was an interesting and complex individual. He used his immense talent to come up with new ideas which led to new equipment. He was no scientist and actually despised them, at least those who disagreed with him. Arthur was a lucid thinker and he believed he was correct about muscles and growth. It made sense so that was all that was necessary. He set up a few experiments to demonstrate the truth of his theories. Unfortunately, those experiments were not good science and he didn't prove anything at all except a few highly motivated people could get exceptional results.
I prefer to know the truth and therefore reject false theories. Well, most theories re hypertrophy are false so I guess I reject the false parts of those theories. We have to test theories by trying them out. The problem here is that we can make mistakes in the application of theories. Anyone who has trained other people knows how easy it is for people not to do what we tell them. People use poor form, cheat and avoid putting sufficient mechanical tension on target muscles. They swear they are doing what the method says but it doesn't work! Who is right, then? Is the theory wrong or is the application inadequate? How would we know if the result is the same, namely no growth? Plainly we cannot know and that pretty well sums up the state of the art in most gyms. Guys blast away and remain the same size.
Mike Mentzer was a philosopher. He could analyze phenomena and make adjustments to improve outcomes. He believed there was one true explanation of any phenomenon. I doubt anyone disagrees with this belief. What is the true theory of making muscles bigger? That hardly seems like rocket science. Despite the apparent simplicity just about everyone has trouble getting really big. We find zillions of so-called bodybuilding experts who have 16 1/2 to 17 1/2 inch arms. These individuals cannot make their arms bigger than 18 inches cold. A few taller guys can but I am referring to men of average height.
I don't think it is fair to make too many statements about the veracity of theories that Mike or Arthur professed. Both men were highly intelligent and could debate anyone here on Getbig. There is no doubt about that at all.
I just find their theories lacking and I conclude that HIT is not the true theory re hypertrophy. That is my opinion. Others believe HIT is true. Well, until science establishes that it remains a guess and nothing more. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true.
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Pumpster, you must accept that Arthur Jones was the most dogmatic, preachy guy to ever write about muscles. I guess his disciples rally to defend him. Let science decide who was right.
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Pumpster, you must accept that Arthur Jones was the most dogmatic, preachy guy to ever write about muscles. I guess his disciples rally to defend him. Let science decide who was right.
Arrogance seeped down from the top from day one, a huge negative.
I'm not one of his disciples, not at all. Just like to see balanced, less emotional perspectives. Unsubstantiated, negative speculation as to the veracity of his methods at this time in particular strikes me as rather small.
Would love to know what Joe Weider thought when hearing of his passing; on one hand there were all those negative articles in the early 70s Muscle mags on the other hand Joe like Arnold's a huge BB fan himself and probably appreciated Arthur's unique approaches. I have a feeling there'll be something in an upcoming Weider mag about it, something like what was written about Vince when he passed.
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I agree with Vince... to a certain degree... HIT has it's faults. The requirement of incredible motivation and high discomfort tolerance being chief among them.
But where I think Vince is being a little unfair is with regard to the value of HIT. HIT shouldn't be lumped in with the umpteen other 5 sets of 5; 8 sets of 8 bullshit training protocals... HIT remains THE best option for natural bodybuilders and presumably also for steroid users (allowing for differing dosages).
Properly conducted HIT training has trounced all other theories where it counts... in the gym with drug-free genetically typical trainers.
Granted, the 18'' natural arm is rare... but that has more to do with the endocrinological requirements of metabolically supporting that much muscle (you need to juice to get above a certain size). Also, anyone willing to train with the dedication and determination required to incrementally amass a lot of muscle most probably overcomes their aversion to sticking a needle in their ass at some point.
Over the past 25 years Dr Ellington Darden (following on from Arthur Jones) has done more to develop and refine hypertrophy science than any academic... dismissing that because naturals aren't making the same progress as steroid users is facetious and self serving (no disrespect).
The Luke
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Show me the scientific research that supports the superiority of HIT? I haven't seen any evidence. It is exactly because of the paucity of evidence that Arthur ascended to the heights that he did with his theories. To this day, there is hardly any hypertrophy research done using bodybuilders. 13 week studies done with university students proves virtually nothing at all.
I would have thought that the passing of Arthur Jones would be huge news because of what he achieved in his life. Most of us will leave this world without so much as a whisper.
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13 week studies done with university students proves virtually nothing at all.
Why not?
If you can't find research on muscle hypertrophy you probably just aren't looking...
If you are hoping to see a scientific study of how regular bodybuilders train you're going to be disappointed.
Knocking a training protocol is one thing Vince, but, and I say this with respect, what you do is completely counter productive... you rightly dismiss all the nonsense training protocols (high volume etc), but when it comes to something logical and structured (such as Heavy Duty) and even more reprehensibly something as productive and reliable as HIT... you find one flaw and use it as grounds to dismiss result producing theories.
This topic came up before and was discussed ad nauseum... no one managed to convince you Vince, but neither did anyone call into question the validity of your reasoning.
You dismiss HIT on the grounds that:
1) HIT doesn't reliably produce results for everyone all the time
2) HIT doesn't produce continuous muscle gains ad infinitum
Well I put it to you that such criticisms are baseless and reveal a lack of understanding on your part.
1) No training protocol can reliably produce results in drug free trainees each and every time. At any moment approx 70% of the general population are suffering some form of sub-clinical metabolic disorder... the daily stresses of life mean most of the population are regularly incapable of gaining muscle .
2) There is a limit to how much muscle can be carried... it's related to how much muscle the bodies androgen levels can support. Most bodybuilding enthusiasts are aware of this with regard to how much muscle mass a female can carry, somehow they refuse to apply the same principle to male trainees.
...No training protocol can produce universally reliable results. Similarly, no training protocol can produce natural muscle mass much in excess of the limits of the FFMI (Fat Free Mass Index).
Using such failings as a means of criticizing HIT is preposterous... using such failings as a means of completely DISMISSING HIT is disingenuous at best.
I'm not attacking Vince here, I respect his intelligence and depth of knowledge in this field. But if he can't properly articulate his reasoning he should hope that others don't judge his musings with the impossible standard he himself uses to dismiss Arthur Jones' theories.
Arthur Jones wasn't right... but he was righter than anyone has ever been either before or since.
Hoping you'll expand on this Vince, respectfully,
The Luke
PS- anyone tired of making no progress in the gym should toddle over to www.drdarden.com you won't regret it.
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I have no doubt I would have enjoyed discussing theories with Arthur. Mike and I had a chat and I had heaps of talks with Ray Mentzer. Sure I was impressed with what Ray said. He, obviously, was a huge guy and, muscle for muscle, one of the biggest to ever walk this planet.
Anyone who cares to read in the history of science discovers that almost all scientific theories were false. That comes as quite a shock. Eventually, many theories were improved and today we have technology that works based on those theories. Astronomy is mainly a theory laden discipline because we have to make guesses about the universe, especially areas that are beyond reach except through telescopes, etc. Up until the 20th century most astronomical theories were false. No one had a clue about galaxies and how prolific they are and how far away they are.
Getting back to exercise science we expect things to have advanced accordingly. However, there remains a huge gap in bodybuilding understanding because scientists are totally uninterested in maximum human hypertrophy. The result is the paucity of studies done on bodybuilders. They cannot even state with certainty what huge muscles are composed of re the number of fibres, etc. The question of hyperplasia remains mainly a mystery re humans.
Then we come to training methods. Good grief, is there any certainty here? If HIT is established as fact then individuals like myself who reject those principles must be dunces. How come HIT is not universally embraced by all bodybuilders? It isn't for a simple reason. It doesn't work beyond a certain point and is, in fact, the most dangerous way, ever, to train. Arthur concluded heaps of things and wrote about his findings in a lucid way. All the lucidity in the world doesn't make a theory right. When you go back to what he did with Sergio you have to accept that HIT is only partly responsible for Sergio's gains when supervised by Arthur. Sergio did volume type training. He mixed high intensity with volume and short rests. That formula comes closer to what produces extreme hypertrophy.
I must admit that HIT and 'intensity' are concepts that mean different things to different people. What a pity that 'intensity' was chosen as a concept in HIT. There are two kinds of intensity in HIT and both are central to that theory. One is intensity of effort and the other is percentage of maximum resistance capable of being lifted for one rep. Unfortunately, for HD and HIT, there is not enough volume to sustain growth. It will be shown that huge muscles are good for muscular endurance and not strength, although a threshold amount of resistance is needed to be met before growth with continue. Something like 75% of 1 RM is required for hypertrophy. Huge muscles are not weak but they are not the strongest because the training is not specific for strength.
Anyone who thinks I don't support volume training is mistaken. It may be possible to train 8 to 12 hours a day and grow exponentially. No one has tried this in any sustained fashion.
It is possible to grow at a maximum rate and sustain that rate. Why is this not possible? Oh, it may well be unlikely for most human beings, but, in principle it can be done. Well, all one needs to do is reverse engineer the growth and voila, continuous growth. It may be that different protocols have to be used. There might be some surprises. I think the requirements can be specified in general terms.
If there was existing research explaining all hypertrophy and how to sustain it we wouldn't be arguing ad infinitum on discussion boards. That much is certain.
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I have no doubt I would have enjoyed discussing theories with Arthur. Mike and I had a chat and I had heaps of talks with Ray Mentzer.
please transcribe these discussions.
please.
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It is possible to grow at a maximum rate and sustain that rate. Why is this not possible?
This is a faulty premise... what makes you think this is possible when no other process in the body is capable of such? No tissue in the human body is capable of this, not even adipose tissue.
Vince, you state that HIT only works to a certain point... that may be true... but seeing as all the top natural bodybuilders in the world (real naturals) are pretty much the same size and all train with low volume two or three times a week with something akin to HIT (or with as high an intensity as is practical), couldn't it just be possible that perhaps HIT works and steroids have simply confused the matter? Couldn't it just be possible that HIT builds trainees up to their maximum quicker than any other method and this is it's only failing?
With regard to the continuous tension 10-12 hour training stimulus stuff... that's all irrelevant to human musculature... all those studies worked vestigial/compromised muscles in rats and chickens.
The Luke
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Vince, you state that HIT only works to a certain point... that may be true... but seeing as all the top natural bodybuilders in the world (real naturals) are pretty much the same size and all train with low volume two or three times a week with something akin to HIT (or with as high an intensity as is practical), couldn't it just be possible that perhaps HIT works and steroids have simply confused the matter? Couldn't it just be possible that HIT builds trainees up to their maximum quicker than any other method and this is it's only failing?
Is this really true? Who are those natural bodybuilders? If it is indeed the case that the majority of steroid free succesful bodybuilders use HIT, then to me that is enough proof. Proof that at least for natural trainers, such as myself, HIT would be the best approach.
PS Do you consder Max OT to be HIT as well?
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H.I.T is in a league of its own.
Max OT (im assuming this is what skip la cour does) has some very similar premises eg- adaption and need to force the body to grow through an intense lift.
However H.I.T has 'the least' or more appropriately 'the exact' amount necessary to get the job done which is much less volume.
It is the most intense form of exercise and as 'the luke' so cleverly pointed out u need to posess a high tolerance of discomfort and pain (i would actually say AN EXTREME amount...this goes hand in hand with a required 'EXTREME DESIRE/ MOTIVATION' to go thru such training).
the other important issue is the slow rep speed 4 second positive, 2 second static, 4 second negative. this makes the sets even more grueling and painful (tension is always on the muscle with no momentum, also no injury as no force into joint - take note of that comment vince ;) h.i.t is safest exercise style)
Of course I am speak of Mentzer's H.I.T which is the only comprehensive theory, which is A COMPLETE THEORY with NO CONTRADICTIONS.
Good Night to All and Thanks for your Attention.
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HIT is not the optimum method for naturals or anyone else and yes, steroids and drugs confuse everyone.
No one can state what is impossible re growth in human muscles. I doubt anyone has approached the fastest rate of growth possible without supplements or drugs.
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HIT is not the optimum method for naturals or anyone else and yes, steroids and drugs confuse everyone.
Why not??
No one can state what is impossible re growth in human muscles. I doubt anyone has approached the fastest rate of growth possible without supplements or drugs.[/color]
Why do you make such generalizations Vince? No offense, but it sounds as if you are pontificating... and worse than that you are plainly and patently wrong.
Impossible to quantify?
Allow me to attempt to do the impossible:
...growth exceeding excess calories consumed during that same period would be impossible obviously, but just how much muscle could be converted assuming a direct conversion of calorie intake into muscle mass (ignoring the metabolic cost of such a conversion)?
One pound of muscle requires 2,900 kcal to form... most 150 to 200 lb natural trainers will find it almost impossible to eat more than (a clean) 4,000 kcal per day and even that will quickly (two weeks) put strain on the digestive system. But a 150 to 200 lb natural trainer working hard at regular HIT training will require upwards of 3,000 kcal per day.
Assuming the 1,000 kcal are converted directly into muscle; that's 2.4 lbs of muscle per week.
See, that wasn't so difficult to do... this isn't mysticism, it's biochemistry.
To be less flippant, the most muscle anyone would ever realistically gain in a year would be somewhere around 25 lbs... that's 25 lb of new muscle EVEN using steroids!
Some steroid users gain more, but that's 20 lb of new muscle, recovery of 10 lbs of old muscle previously lost through overtraining and atrophy (few start a cycle when in top form), 15 lbs of fluid and a slight increase in bf % (overeating) another 6+ pounds... hence the "My buddy gained 50 lbs in a week on Dbol!" stories.
For a natural... I'd be surprised if anyone could gain more than 18 lbs of new muscle in a year. Why? Because no natural has ever really don better than that.
The Luke
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Why not??
Why do you make such generalizations Vince? No offense, but it sounds as if you are pontificating... and worse than that you are plainly and patently wrong.
Exactly; pontification with nothing solid to confirm just comes across as preachy in the same way Jones was, ironically.
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If there was existing research explaining all hypertrophy and how to sustain it we wouldn't be arguing ad infinitum on discussion boards. That much is certain.
The thing with Vince is that he talks at, not with others. On one hand he admits that there's nothing conclusive out there in terms of research, then he proceeds to contradict himself with unequivocal statements as to what is or isn't effective. Because he operates in a bubble launching statements here and elsewhere that show little desire for actual discourse with others.
Sorry Vince but it's better someone told you the truth while you're still with us, even if you're too old to adapt. ;D
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on another note,
HOW MUCH WOULD U SELL THESE PIECES OF EQUIPMENT U MAKE:
A Hack Squat Machine?
A smith Machine?
Leg Press?
Excellent example in which Vince if he wanted to be friendly and/or promote himself better could discuss this here or via PM instead of the usual short, cryptic responses that basically say "go away it's all top-secret".
Really Vince, this is small time. And the guy's even in Australia.
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HIT is not the optimum method for naturals or anyone else and yes, steroids and drugs confuse everyone.
You state there is no cocnclusive research but then state HIT is not optimium as if you know what is. Please state what you beleive is the best method for hypertrophy. You need not to confuse your opinions with facts or atleast don't write them as facts. I have to agree with you on the fact that steroids and other hormones/drugs confuse people on proper training protocol.
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I am no expert....
but in my experience....no 2 people can train the same & obtain the same exact results.
All of these different theories will work....but depending on the individual....will expect different results.
So argue/debate on....it's pointless
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The thing with Vince is that he talks at, not with others. On one hand he admits that there's nothing conclusive out there in terms of research, then he proceeds to contradict himself with unequivocal statements as to what is or isn't effective. Because he operates in a bubble launching statements here and elsewhere that show little desire for actual discourse with others.
Sorry Vince but it's better someone told you the truth while you're still with us, even if you're too old to adapt. ;D
bingo
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Excellent example in which Vince if he wanted to be friendly and/or promote himself better could discuss this here or via PM instead of the usual short, cryptic responses that basically say "go away it's all top-secret".
Really Vince, this is small time. And the guy's even in Australia.
well he clearly lacks business instincts and some social skills (or class). ;)
let me know when u join the human race Vince, I would be more than happy to converse with you.
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I don't build gym equipment for anyone else. What is so difficult to understand about that? Do I have some obligation to do so! I might have some surplus used machines for sale but a PM would be appreciated.
There is nothing to debate here about the philosophy of hypertrophy. Well, there is but others cannot do that without abandoning their cherished beliefs. That is why it is a waste of time. Remember, it is easy to mistaken and difficult to be correct.
Pumpster has no theory of his own, that I have detected, that explains all muscle growth and the lack of growth from training.
Knny187 presents a theory which states that everyone is different so methods must be different. The reality is far from that. If it were true then exercise science would be pointless let alone debating anything about muscles.
What the ^#%# is so difficult about hypertrophy, anyway? Why the angst? Why do people get pissed off? Who are the real experts in hypertrophy theory? Seems to me I was right when I wrote that just about everyone considers themselves experts in the Irongame. This thread is conclusive proof of that fact.
Luke, I recommend that you read up on the concept of possible before making a dissertation about the subject.
If any of you are fans of Arthur Jones you should respect that the way he dismissed others was to argue about facts re the human body and the requirements of exercise. I don't see much of that here. Instead, it ends up in typical Getbig fashion of a personal attack.
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Vince is the most delusional individual on all of getbig.
He is wrong on so many counts it's ridiculous and it's useless to try and discuss with him anyway because he just doesn't listen. Even if delusional at least he might try to offer some practical advice or theory. Does ANYONE here have an idea of how Vince would set up a routine?!! It's just insane rambling. He may be more crazy than Mike Mentzer during his worst meth binge.
There is nothing to debate here about the philosophy of hypertrophy. Well, there is but others cannot do that without abandoning their cherished beliefs. That is why it is a waste of time. Remember, it is easy to mistaken and difficult to be correct.
Look in the mirror buddy. You just described yourself.
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Sorry Vince,
Never intended a personal attack as I greatly appreciate your contributions to the board... I simply take umbridge with your surprisingly faulty presumption that rapid large scale muscle growth is possible... it has never happened outside of instances of muscle memory, so why do you remain so convinced that it is possible.
I also don't understand why you expect a theory of hypertrophy to explain ALL muscle growth AND all lack of muscle growth simultaneously... that's impossible.
Lack of muscle growth can have several factors most of which would be undetectable:
-early stage cancer (tumours eat up calories)
-sleep deprivation
-subclinical vitamin deficiency
-tooth ache/tooth decay toxins
-hydration levels
-mental stress
-fungal toxicity (mildew on your shower curtain)
-intestinal upset
-mild, unnoticed food allergy
-virus, infection etc etc
...all these things can short circuit the muscle growth process, even if one is utilising the perfect training protocol.
The proof of a training protocol is not progress or the lack of progress... it is the quantity of progress over a period of sufficient length as to include sufficient periods wherein muscle growth is physiologically possible as to be statistically significant (ie: progress over a consistent, diligent year of effort... not when you are burnt out and need a rest but instead opt for a change).
By this criteria HIT beats out everything else hands down... if you are training HIT properly you may or may not make progress, but at least you can be certain that you would have made LESS progress (if any) with any other protocol.
People get results with HVT... but they always get better results with HIT providing that they implement it properly (full body workouts, maximum effort, proper movement selection etc etc). Generally speaking those who plateau on HIT (before reaching their maximum FFMI) and then return to HVT only to get sudden growth have made fundamental mistakes in applying HIT properly which leads to a decompensation and they only RE-gain old muscle with the HVT.
HIT is the best way to build NEW MUSCLE.
There are drawbacks...
-HIT is brutally hard work, causing many to look for an excuse (any excuse) to abandon it
-HIT damages joints: I never had any joint problems using HVT, because I plateaued at a soft 150 lbs... now I'm lean at 190 lbs, and deadlift 400 lbs for reps every workout, HVT trainers using similar weights have severe joint problems whereas I have an occasional click in my left elbow
-the gains from HIT slow up as you progress; I've found it increasingly difficult to gain muscle since I reached my FFMI limit... not sure if getting as big as you can realistically get is a bad thing. It does mean that I have found a training principle that works... I'm as big as a natural can get: presumably that would mean that I could eventually get just as big as Ronnie Coleman if I took what he was taking and had a similar response to exogenous androgens; that's comforting to know
-people think I'm a steroid user
To avoid these problems I recommend everyone follow Vince's advice and find what's best for them, providing you eventually try HIT you can make up all the years wasted on permutations of the Weider principles and four hour HVT workouts.
The Luke
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HIT DOES NOT DAMAGE JOINTS IF U EMPLOY A 4 SECOND POSITIVE AND 4 SECOND NEGATIVE REP SPEED.
AS THERE IS NO MOMENTUM.
If u damaged ur joints it is from too quick rep speed, and/or bad form.
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The slow training isn't the answer, either. There should be no requirement to add 'properly' after HIT. That reeks of rationalization. In other words, that accounts for just about everyone who doesn't gain. Rapid, measurable, sustained muscle growth is possible but not with HIT, etc. Why people still embrace those inadequate methods is a mystery. I guess most people have to believe in something. I prefer to discard all inadequate methods and do only what yields rapid growth. It isn't a mystery.
Van Bilderass states that I am delusional. Is he the judge of who is competent in hypertrophy theory? No one has refuted my theory and I have posted it here and elsewhere on the net plus had it published in Ironman Magazine in 2000 and 2001. I have no obligation to post programs. I have posted protocols on Getbig and elsewhere in the past. I do not join training forums because I do not need the abuse from pseudo experts and jerks. There is no open, honest, fair and scientific forum on line for discussing bodybuilding and hypertrophy theories and methods. Everyone who owns a site has a vested interest or appoints moderators who don't do their jobs, which is to stop personal attacks.
What amuses me is the sorry fact that bodybuilding has no academic status at universities. When has anyone been granted a PhD in maximum human hypertrophy? Where could a candidate be supervised to do such a degree? In the vacuum that exists re the philosophy of hypertrophy just about any method has some currency and believers. We see this mirrored in every gym where enthusiasts do all manner of training and seldom grow steadily at all.
The Luke said: "HIT beats out everything else hands down... if you are training HIT properly you may or may not make progress, but at least you can be certain that you would have made LESS progress (if any) with any other protocol."
His statement is equivalent to the null set. If you are training HIT properly you may or MAY NOT make progress. Yes, that pretty well sums up the state of affairs re intermediate bodybuilding. These same guys will believe they're hardgainers, too. If HIT is a valid method it must work if done properly. If it doesn't work it has to be discarded. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned. Well, I discarded that theory a long time ago. Ray Mentzer tried to convince me it was true but my own experience has shown otherwise. HIT is plainly a false theory. Arthur, Ellington and Mike merely added to the confusion.
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Vince,
I greatly respect your experience and knowledge... but as a scientist I must refute a couple of your claims as they say more about your limited understanding of biochemistry than reinforce your argument:
The slow training isn't the answer, either. There should be no requirement to add 'properly' after HIT.
...this is plainly idiotic. Proper implementation is a prerequisite of any training protocol. Imagine the following conversation:
Billy: "Hows the leg training going Bob?"
Bob: "Badly... my legs are even smaller than they were when I started."
Billy: "Do you squat?"
Bob: "Yeah, I've been sitting around my house all day, watching tv, playing Nintendo"
Billy: "Okay, but do you squat?"
Bob: "Yeah dude, didn't you listen to what I said... I've been doing squat for three weeks now and my legs aren't getting any bigger."
...is it fair for this guy to conclude that all leg training is bunk because everyone recommends squats?
That reeks of rationalization. In other words, that accounts for just about everyone who doesn't gain.
...Vince you simply have to accept that muscle growth is metabolically costly and is not something that the body can sustain for long periods of time. For one thing, the growth potential of muscle tissue far exceeds the maximum growth rate of connective tissue (poor blood supply). Only rare genetic freaks can gain continuously and even for them, growth is slow and incremental... the rest of us, even under the best conditions, can only gain to a certain point before we have to allow our tendons and connective tissue to catch up. This is why strength and muscle gains are cyclical for many people... it does not mean that their training is cyclically successful.
Rapid, measurable, sustained muscle growth is possible but not with HIT, etc.
...why you believe this is a mystery to me?
This has never happened in the history of the human race. In fact it is a biological impossibility... it has never been observed... anywhere... ever.
Why people still embrace those inadequate methods is a mystery. I guess most people have to believe in something.
...the same way you believe in infinite muscle growth, even though it is the biological equivalent of perpetual motion???
I prefer to discard all inadequate methods and do only what yields rapid growth. It isn't a mystery.
...on the contrary Vince, your method of generating such rapid growth is very much a mystery as you never explain it. All we have ever seen are vague, cryptic allusions.
Van Bilderass states that I am delusional. Is he the judge of who is competent in hypertrophy theory? No one has refuted my theory and I have posted it here and elsewhere on the net plus had it published in Ironman Magazine in 2000 and 2001.
...vague musings do not a theory make.
I have no obligation to post programs. I have posted protocols on Getbig and elsewhere in the past. I do not join training forums because I do not need the abuse from pseudo experts and jerks.
...I don't feel you are a jerk Vince, but your continuous hypothesizing despite your inability to comprehend the fundamental biological processes involved DOES make YOU a pseudo expert.
There is no open, honest, fair and scientific forum on line for discussing bodybuilding and hypertrophy theories and methods. Everyone who owns a site has a vested interest or appoints moderators who don't do their jobs and allow personal attacks.
...yes there is, it's at www.drdarden.com
What amuses me is the sorry fact that bodybuilding has no academic status at universities. When has anyone been granted a PhD in maximum human hypertrophy? Where could a candidate be supervised to do such a degree? In the vacuum that exists re the philosophy of hypertrophy just about any method has some currency and believers. We see this mirrored in every gym where enthusiasts do all manner of training and seldom grow steadily at all.
...couldn't agree more. But the reason hypertrophy isn't a separate, distinct science is because it involves aspects of several different established and proven scientific disciplines... the same science that you ignore while making wild claims about infinite muscle growth.
The Luke said: "HIT beats out everything else hands down... if you are training HIT properly you may or may not make progress, but at least you can be certain that you would have made LESS progress (if any) with any other protocol."
...yes, yes I did... because it is true.
His statement is equivalent to the null set. If you are training HIT properly you may or MAY NOT make progress. Yes, that pretty well sums up the state of affairs re intermediate bodybuilding. These same guys will believe they're hardgainers, too.
...agree wholeheartedly.
If HIT is a valid method it must work if done properly.
...no.
When dealing with complex biological processes, there are several interdependent factors at play. This isn't engineering or mathematics, where identical applications always yield identical results.
Some humorous examples:
-A knife to the right of the sternum won't kill everyone, every time. For one in a million people, the heart is on the left hand side and such a wound would be pretty minor.
-A bullet in the head won't kill everyone, every time. One in a billion people have compressed brains which are flat against their brain stems and the floor of their cranial vault... the cranial cavity is filled with a fluid swollen tumour or growth.
Similarly, not every bodybuilder is even capable of responding to hypertrophic stimulus at all times. It only happens when the metabolism can allow it.
I can't explain this stuff more simply... biological responses are statistical by nature.
If it doesn't work it has to be discarded. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned. Well, I discarded that theory a long time ago. Ray Mentzer tried to convince me it was true but my own experience has shown otherwise. HIT is plainly a false theory. Arthur, Ellington and Mike merely added to the confusion.
...faulty reasoning, for the reasons stated above.
The Luke
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What a shambles this thread has turned out to be. Rapid sustained muscular growth happens quite often. Unfortunately, most of the time this growth is generated with the help of anabolic drugs. I believe it is possible to achieve the same result without drugs. I certainly don't subscribe to the notion of infinite growth. If readers are going to make those statements then discussions with them are pointless.
Either HIT works or it doesn't work. If the latter, then it is not the method that explains growth. This is a logical requirement. What is so difficult to acknowledge this? Read up on the philosophy of science and get back to me.
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What a shambles this thread has turned out to be.
Maybe it's time to stop bitching; if it's a "shambles" as you say, you're to blame buddy!
For someone who claims to invite and enjoy reasoned discussion over the usual getbig crap, it's disappointing to see complaints when in fact he instigated this.
Exercising a little logic, the thread could've been..
-Mainly positive contributions re: Arthur Jones in the wake of his death,
OR, failing that..
-A lively dialogue covering all aspects, without the instigator displaying blatant hypocricy by creating controvery then turning around and complaining about it.
A hint for Vince, going forward: either say nothing negative in the wake of a man's death, or be man enough to embrace true discourse without complaining after months of complaining that there's not enough true discourse on getbig! (enough with the wishy washy empty rhetoric).
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Vince is the most delusional individual on all of getbig.
He is wrong on so many counts it's ridiculous and it's useless to try and discuss with him anyway because he just doesn't listen.
Agreed; he doesn't listen. He "speaks" in a vacuum AKA pontification. Not exactly the example someone complaining of getbig's low standards should put forth.
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Vince,
I have a high IQ and an honours degree in experimental physics... you think I need to read up on the philosophy of science? That's laughable when you are the one caught up in a circular logical fallacy.
Let me explain this in layman's terms, I'm going to give you a list of people who would not respond to hypertrophic stimulus, not even the magical "works every time" version you're questing for. Just read it, you won't disagree:
-the dead
-those dying of end-stage terminal diseases
-those suffering from end-stage terminal diseases
-those suffering from chronic muscle wasting diseases
-the chronically malnourished
-those digestively compromised
-the immunologically compromised
-those suffering multiple organ failure
-the extremely elderly
-the hormonally compromised
-the chronically stressed
...you only concede the first group on the list, but presumably would revise your sweeping statements to concede the others if confronted with such a list. The problem arises when we look at the next list, which details those that scientific studies have shown are incapable of adding new muscle.
-the chronically overtrained
-those suffering metabolic stresses
-those depleted of metabolic substrates (even subclinical conditions)
-those depleted of hormonal substrates (even subclinical conditions)
-those depleted of certain vitamins (even subclinical conditions)
-those depleted of certain digestive enzymes (even subclinical conditions)
-those depleted of certain metabolites
-those with faulty glucose metabolism
-those in metabolic recovery debt
-the subclinically sleep deprived
-those with metabolic disorders (even subclinical or temporary/transient conditions)
...I'd say that confronted with that list Vince would again revise his "should work every time" requirement to exclude the above listed individuals. He'd be right to do so as all those listed above have been found to be biologically incapable of building new muscle.
The problem arises when you consider that both of those lists combined includes 80+% of the general population, and possibly as much as 30% of (supposedly) healthy, well-fed bodybuilders.
I don't see why Vince can't seem to grasp that biological reality precludes a magic wand training protocol. Even if it was found it would only work on 70% of bodybuilders...
The "perfect" training method couldn't possibly work for EVERYONE... at best it would only be identifiable by the fact that it produced BETTER RESULTS for MORE people than any other method...
...and that would be HIT.
The Luke
PS- the limit for new muscle in a year (even for steroid users) is about 30 lbs.
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This is what Vince doesn't get: ALL training programs that cause hypertrophy have the same red thread that goes through them. The basic stimulus for hypertrophic adaptation has been scientifically pointed out decades ago. What remains is mere minutiae. This minutiae will NOT change the way people train in a successful manner.
Like Luke pointed out there will never be a training program that will work flawlessly for every individual without interruption simply because of biological individuality.
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What a shambles this thread has turned out to be. Rapid sustained muscular growth happens quite often. Unfortunately, most of the time this growth is generated with the help of anabolic drugs. I believe it is possible to achieve the same result without drugs.
u must be smoking some great crack....maybe its acid...dont know. but that statement came from loony LA LA LAND.
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Ray Mentzer tried to convince me it was true but my own experience has shown otherwise.
what did he say? answer for once instead of ignoring.
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Luke, whatever has IQ or experimental physics got to do with hypertrophy theory?
Out of respect for Arthur Jones, HIT should be officially buried with his passing.
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Luke, whatever has IQ or experimental physics got to do with hypertrophy theory?
Out of respect for Arthur Jones, HIT should be officially buried with his passing.
...Yes Vince, science has nothing to do with this. It is enough that you believe it for it to be so in reality.
Don't you think it's significant that everyone with scientific expertise thinks your argument is what scientists call: "NOT EVEN WRONG"
Muscle mass in excess of that supported by the metabolism is not possible.
Your requirements for a proper training program are so unrealistic as to evidence an inability to fathom the basic biological processes involved... not to mention the inconsistent logic you use to arrive at such conclusions.
The facts are simple in this instance:
Arthur Jones was the saviour of bodybuilding... he developed/pioneered a scientific process for physique development which has consistently outperformed ALL others.
Arthur Jones was right... or at least he was as close to right as makes no difference.
If you think HIT is so wrong as to warrant dismissing it's principles... then you are so wrong the difference doesn't matter.
The Luke
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"“But surely,” you might say, “the scientists now know everything that there is to know about exercise, right?” Wrong;
the number of scientists who know literally anything of value about exercise are equal to the number of thumbs on your
left ear. Zilch, nada, izeko (which is Zulu), or as the British say, sweet fuck all. If you are seriously interested in
exercise then forget the scientists, they can tell you nothing of any slightest value. If you ever do manage to learn
anything of value about exercise you will do so in the only way possible, by the application of a bit of common sense
and from personal experience; learning from trial and error. If it appears to work, do it, but if it fails to produce almost
instant results then try something else. Which is exactly how I learned what I know about exercise, none of which I
learned from anybody else; what I did learn from other people was that their ideas were utterly stupid."
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"A long list of people all over the world have followed a pattern that seems to be stamped into the genes of many
people: IGNORE, RIDICULE, ATTACK, COPY, STEAL. Upon becoming aware of my work they initially ignore it,
hoping, I guess, that it will go away; then, when it does not go away, they try to kill it by ridicule; next they attack both
me and my ideas as insane and dangerous; and, eventually, they attempt to copy my work; then, finally, they suddenly
remember that all of my ideas actually originated with them."
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what did Ray Mentzer say? answer for once instead of ignoring.
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Ray Mentzer had theories of his own about the multitude of contractions possible by muscles. He also believed in HIT. Just about everyone wondered if he actually gained his size using that method or if he did more volume. He did tell me that when his mother died he was training for the Mr America title and he was so motivated that he would have trained 24 hours a day if that was required. That is hardly what a HIT believer would say, is it?
Ray gave seminars and training camps that people said they benefited from after attending. Ray took these public presentations very seriously and got very anxious before giving them. At the seminar he challenged everyone that they couldn't complete even one rep that he would supervise. Well, no one offered to try this and was more a trick than evidence about the effectiveness of HIT.
Ray never convinced me of HIT. I never saw him training that way, either. He knew a lot about exercise and was more knowledgable than most on this forum. What bothered me about HIT is why the results did not follow from those giving it a fair go. If HIT is the true method why doesn't everyone gain using it? Well, lots of excuses can be made and you can simply cheat and say they didn't do HIT properly. That is begging the question for sure. HIT didn't work because it is inadequate for the requirements for large muscular size. Arthur, Ellington, Mike and others had a fair go trying to convince everyone of what they stood for. It really is sad that this theory is not sufficient. Those who embrace it will unlikely develop huge muscles. Oh, they can say it worked for them but, in truth, they are rationalizing. All HITters will have to accept there are limits to that method. If they do not abandon what doesn't work then what can we call them?
Arthur preached that the best way to gain knowledge was to find out for yourself through trial and error. So, if you are earnest about building your muscles and HIT doesn't work do you abandon that method and try something else? That is what Arthur would have done. It is a real pity that he wasn't a bodybuilder. Had he been one he would have reached plateaus and known HIT was inadequate.
From my own experience it is clear to me that HIT methods and preaching virtually spoiled any chance I had of being much bigger. If I had followed Doug Hepburn's advice I could have gone much further. My competitive career ended with the arrival of Nautilus and the preaching of Arthur Jones. That many still follow what Arthur preached is an historical curiosity that says more about the limited capacity of most human brains than true knowledge. Instead of searching for the truth most have believed that further muscular size is achievable only through using drugs. What a load of crap that conclusion is, but I have no doubt it is almost universally believed.
HIT is going in the wrong direction. Remember, I have nothing to sell anyone. Darden has courses. Mike Mentzer had courses and personal training and videos. Arthur had gym and medical equipment. You can believe what you want but, unfortunately for bodybuilding, Arthur and his disciples continue to generate more confusion instead of clarity. Since so many thickheads populate this pastime there is no hope in hell of things changing for the better. At least Arthur and I agree about that.
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mmmmm very interesting.
well the real test is how i go when i am not losing weight as all this year I have been using h.i.t but been on a tight diet, heaps of cardio and lower calories soi cant tell how truly effective it has been (all i know is that my strength has constantly increased and I have added muscle no doubt).
My real experiment will be when I am eating a diet geared towards gaining size.
ps- I have lost 32 kg this year...not bad huh (and yes i was disgustingly out of shape)
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From my own experience it is clear to me that HIT methods and preaching virtually spoiled any chance I had of being much bigger. If I had followed Doug Hepburn's advice I could have gone much further. My competitive career ended with the arrival of Nautilus and the preaching of Arthur Jones. That many still follow what Arthur preached is an historical curiosity that says more about the limited capacity of most human brains than true knowledge. Instead of searching for the truth most have believed that further muscular size is achievable only through using drugs. What a load of crap that conclusion is, but I have no doubt it is almost universally believed.
You didn't go further because you had your head up your ass.
LOL, this is hilarious. Vince blaming Arthur Jones for him not being a more successful bodybuilder! Jesus H. Christ!
BTW, I'm not a HIT advocate, so I'm not defending the lunacy of Mentzer et al, per se.
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If you are losing weight you cannot expect to build much lean tissue. Any strength gains cannot be credited to larger muscles because yours have shrunk. How on earth could a person in your state defend HIT? That defies common sense.
Hypertrophy isn't a religious belief. There is no requirement for faith. Gains should be measurable from each exercise session. If you can measure gains only after weeks or months you are growing too slowly. If you can't detect your growth you are not following the right method. Any hypertrophy method has nutrition as a cornerstone. Both training and adequate nutrition are requirements for growth. It is better to not train for strength if you are serious about bodybuilding. Oh, you try to use more resistance but demonstrating strength should never be a goal. That is a good way to injure oneself as Arthur clearly wrote about.
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How on earth could a person in your state defend HIT? That defies common sense.
I am not hot headed anymore (as i was say 5 months ago)... and do not attack and preach with zeal (which is incorrect to do).
As I am getting leaner I am realising, that I truly need to test it under the proper conditions.
I believe in the theory and also the physical workouts are toughest I have done and also I believe the extra rest is beneficial. But as I said, I realise once I am lean as hell (practically nothing but lean muscle), I will begin an 'experiment' which i will document on GETBIG and let the results be known (through both photos, measurements, poundages and muscle increase over time).
I think this will be an interesting experiment.
I would like to add I follow Mentzer H.I.T... I dont believe in the arthur jones routine. and dardaan is a bloody idiot.
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DL5 you clearly are a lost soul. That is what happens when your cherished beliefs are challenged by others. Well, the bottom line is you have doubts. Why should you doubt Mike Mentzer? By the way, Ellington Darden, PhD, is no idiot. They don't give those degrees to people with IQ less than 25. To call someone an idiot is a personal attack. Try attacking theories, methods and statements, instead.
Why on earth would you be trying to get lean if not for competition? That is bizarre. If you can reach a near fatless state you reason you could then tell if gains are muscular. There is no need to start from that state.
You can always tell when your muscles are growing. You can measure them. If your waist remains the same size then most of the increases will be lean mass. Good luck on your extreme experiment. If you are the experimental subject who is the control? Without that your experience will be an anecdotal one and of little interest to science or Getbig. Well, unless your results are extraordinary.
I am afraid a little learning is a dangerous thing. Just about as dangerous as being an intermediate bodybuilder!
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I still believe them.
But I want to see concrete results 'ON MY SELF' to 'UPPER GENETIC LIMIT' before I say it is the ultimate answer.
"FROM THE METHODS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE IT IS THE BEST" I say that already.
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Well, unless your results are extraordinary.
This is my personal goal and my personal journey but thanks for ur input.
my 'experiment' as i put it, is for me to see how far i can reach, not a serious scientific study (and i never said it was....therefore it will interest others. as many others have asked me to log my progress.
why do I want to lost more fat? that should be obvious, because I am not happy with my conditioning and I am not trying to prove anything to anyone about H.I.T, I am concerned with my personal goals, which are 1- to be ripped to bits. and 2- then gain size incrementally and slowly.
I am not doing a contest I do this cos i am a bodybuilding fanatic. I may do a contest, in later years when I have built the sort of physique I want to present on stage.
You could do with some nicer manners....or then again, is what everyone else on this board says about u true..... THAT U CAN BE AN ASSHOLE!
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If you can reach a near fatless state you reason you could then tell if gains are muscular. There is no need to start from that state.
I never said that. you did.
I said I will get to a fatless state. you added that extra part.
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Okay, you are on your own.
I am not hot headed anymore (as i was say 5 months ago)... and do not attack and preach with zeal (which is incorrect to do).
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Okay, you are on your own.
Ok.
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Vince,
Having read your replies carefully I realise that you are not reading what anyone else is posting.
I'm out of this conversation, it's all just mental masturbation if Vince is only going to continue his quasi mystical search (all the while hinting he has the answer but won't share it) for the secret training method that gives steroid like gains even to those starving in concentration camps.
Waste of time...
The Luke
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I think that the actual method used is not that important at all. I think people will have the same type of results no matter which program they follow. I have a hard time believing that a person won't make much progress at all on one program, and then upon switching to another will all of the sudden start making wonderful gains. Of course there is such a thing as overtraining, but as long as you follow a reasonable program you will have the same progress no matter what the program. Even if one program is superior to others the difference is probably negligible.
Regarding DOMS as an indicator for progress, it is a very interesting theory. However, in my own body I have noticed that the muscle groups that always hurt the most (chest and quads) are not that good and the groups that almost never hurt (delts, biceps and lats) are my best bodyparts.
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I think that the actual method used is not that important at all. I think people will have the same type of results no matter which program they follow.
STOP RIGHT THERE.
do u know how illogical that statement is. read it again.
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STOP RIGHT THERE.
do u know how illogical that statement is. read it again.
I was referring to a single person getting nearly the same type results no matter what hypertrophy oriented program they follow. For example do you think there will be a great difference in results if one and the same person did this program:
Squats 5 x 10
Leg Press 5 x 10
Leg curl 5 x 10
vs.
Squats 2 x 6-8
Leg curl 2 x 6-8
Naturally there will be SOME difference, but I think not much at all, if everything else is the same. So therefore I think that HIT can only be marginally better than other programs at best.
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OK, in that case I change it into "no matter what hypertrophy oriented program they follow, as long as the parameters of the program are within reason and, as such, there is no overtraining."
much better.
dont mean to be a dick, but after vince has driven u crazy in circles...u feel the urge to do the same with others.
sadly, in regards to this issue, literally one program has to be better than another for overall results (unless of course they produce the exact same percentile of efficiency).
Vince does make a fantastic point about scientists not wasting their time with studying 'maximum hypertrophy'. if they did would be very interesting. from current methods i believe H.I.T is the only complete theory...others are an imprecise mish mash of ideas and numbers. (not specific and also full of contradictions).
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This is about Arthur Jones, not one-dimensional dogma & opinions. HIT works, so do other worthwhile programs, *IF* you follow them. True HIT as it's meant to be used has not been practiced is not followed by most here. Too tough to do or continue is the biggest issue, not efficacy-the rest is rampant speculation while ensconced comfortably behind a keyboard.
What's also interesting is that here you have a pivotal figure of the BB machine age, and you have someone in Australia who's been building machines for decades, and yet not a shred of appreciation for Jones' creations. ::)
The Rise of the Machines
NY Times Sept 2
IF you have ever found yourself in a new gym, paralyzed with fear and confusion in a landscape of sleek weight-lifting machines that look as if they might require an advanced degree in aeronautics to operate, then you can thank Arthur Jones.
Mr. Jones, who died last Tuesday at age 80, invented Nautilus exercise equipment, which helped to spur the modern exercise revolution and the rise of the gym in American life.
But as the fitness culture has evolved, how will Mr. Jones figure in the history of this American subculture? As a pioneer? Or as a wildly successful entrepreneur in the long line of American physical fitness gurus, peddlers and hucksters whose theories and machines have come and gone for generations?
The advent of Mr. Jones’s first machine more than 35 years ago, a multistation contraption he called the Blue Monster, formed a key part of the evolutionary bridge between free weights and the array of high-tech resistance equipment that populates health clubs and late-night infomercials today. Swaggering and charismatic, Mr. Jones, a ninth-grade dropout, was a master at selling his high-end products. By doing so, he accelerated the machine-oriented fitness boom.
Mr. Jones, a weight lifter himself, unveiled his first machine at a weight-lifting convention in Los Angeles in 1970, having hauled it there in a rented trailer from his home in Florida. His timing was perfect. A fitness movement was beginning to take hold in the country after the publication of “Aerobics,” in 1968, the hugely influential best seller by Dr. Kenneth Cooper that advocated running, swimming and similar exercises to condition the heart and lungs.
Mr. Jones’s Nautilus machines helped to bring strength training into the fitness mix, though he had little use for aerobic exercises, saying most were “worthless for any purpose.” He considered Dr. Cooper “a borderline idiot who knows nothing about constructive exercise,” according to an interview he gave to the Arthur Jones Exercise Web site, operated by a fan.
Like the Universal multistation gym, the Nautilus made exercise simpler. No longer was it necessary to juggle all those cumbersome plates, bars and bolts of free weights. Lifting was now a simple matter of shifting a pin on a machine’s weight stacks.
But the Nautilus went further than other machines at the time, employing a system of pulleys and cams that ensured constant resistance on a weight lifter’s muscles during the entire range of an exercise’s motion. Mr. Jones argued that this system made weight lifting more efficient than anything else on the market, and, thus, more effective. “A thinking man’s barbell,” he told Forbes magazine.
The ease of these machines made weight lifting more attractive to a broader range of people and helped move the activity from the male-dominated domain of body builders in dank Y.M.C.A. basements to today’s well-lighted fitness megacomplexes, complete with juice bars, baby-sitting nurseries and classes in Pilates Magic Circle and Warrior Flow Yoga.
By 1983, he found himself on the Forbes magazine list of the 400 richest Americans, with an estimated net worth of at least $125 million.
The fitness movement was also booming. According to the Boston-based International Health, Racquet and Sportsclub Association, there are now more than 29,000 health clubs in the United States with more than 41.3 million members.
But though Mr. Jones was lauded in obituaries last week for being a revolutionary in the science of fitness, numerous studies have found that some of his principles — using variable resistance machines rather than free weights, and single-set, high-intensity training — do not produce greater gains than conventional weight lifting.
Mr. Jones’ greatest expression of brilliance, however, may have been in his ability to promote his inventions and himself.
“He was so memorable, and he was so bright, very verbal and also combative,” said Terry Todd, a former champion weight lifter and now director of the Stark Center for Physical Culture and Sports at the University of Texas at Austin. “He had the ability to energize people and to create an aura around these Nautilus machines.”
Mr. Jones managed to get the machines into the weight rooms of several professional sports teams, which suddenly made them de rigueur for all sports teams, not to mention upscale health clubs. “You could say to other teams, ‘Oh, you know the Dolphins are training on this Nautilus and — my God — they’re making great gains and the stuff is really cutting edge’ and this and that, and you could create a kind of frenzy,” Mr. Todd said.
Mr. Jones, who sold his interest in Nautilus in 1986, never appeared to have any doubt about his influence on the exercise market, and dismissed most criticism of his inventions as the mutterings of fools.
Except for himself and an obscure 19th-century Swedish doctor named Gustav Zander, he said, “I have been unable to find any proof of any actually meaningful contributions to the field by anybody else.”
Mr. Jones was an unlikely ambassador for the fitness revolution. He chain-smoked, drank quarts of coffee every day and paid little attention to his diet. According to a 1985 profile in Time magazine, he “wore horn-rimmed glasses and ill-fitting pants” and carried a .45 Colt.
For all of Mr. Jones swagger, Brian D. Johnston, creator of the Arthur Jones Exercise Web site, said the entrepreneur became embittered in his final years and felt underappreciated by the fitness industry.
“He was pretty much fed up with the exercise industry,” said Mr. Johnston, president of the International Association of Resistance Trainers, based in Sudbury, Ontario, which teaches Mr. Jones’s principles. “He pretty much lost any interest in exercise science, pretty much survived on cigarettes, chocolate, scrambled eggs and a lot of coffee.”
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One thing Arthur changed forever is he made doing exercise an acceptable thing even intelligent people could do. His theories were logical and well written. There was a way to exercise in an efficient and effective way. The perception was that it was possible to train briefly instead of labouring in gyms for hours as many bodybuilders were doing. In a real sense his method was the antithesis of bodybuilding and his machines were purchased by clubs and fitness centers. Most hard core gyms did not install Nautilus machines. The whole concept of what a gym or fitness center is changed because of Arthur and now all clubs install machines similar to what Arthur invented and built.
I remember training at Golds Gym in Venice in 1991 for a couple of weeks. What a lot of people might not know is equipment companies gave lines of gym equipment to that gym because it was literally a showroom for other Golds Gym owners who would go there and then make decisions about which equipment to purchase. You would have lines of Cybex, Flex, Icarian, Hammer and Nautilus equipment. Those doing calves, for example, would have to move to many parts of the gym to access the machines because each brand had all their machines together. I noticed that the Nautilus machines were not used much by the bodybuilders. I could always find those machines in the second big room more or less unused. You would have trouble getting on most equipment in the first and third rooms. So, whatever you want to say about Nautilus machines, they were never embraced universally by most bodybuilders. Ray Mentzer noticed this, too, and said most bodybuilders were stupid. Ray also laughed at all the so-called personal trainers. He and Mike trained heaps of guys for a month or so and then these guys felt they were qualified as personal trainers.
The bodybuilders in my gym use free weights and pulley machines for back and arms. They do use some of the Nautilus machines but this would be the exception and not the rule. There you are. Arthur started the gym equipment revolution but the thickheads who lift weights religiously never believed all that stuff Arthur said and they never accepted Nautilus machines. That really is bizarre. It is part of the reason Arthur washed his hands of bodybuilders. That, and because of the politics in bodybuilding contests that saw superior black guys losing to not-as-good guys like Arnold.
I don't feel that I contributed much to gym equipment design because I have a gym in a suburb of Sydney. I am one of the few who built a machine that Arthur gave up trying to create. That is my biceps-supinator machine. I read about Arthur's account of the two main functions of the biceps and how no machine provides resistance for both flexion and supination or rotation of the wrists inwards and upwards. I did call Arthur and talked to him about my inventions and we had an interesting conversation. I sent him photos of my machine last year through Larry Evans. A pity I never got to talk to Arthur again before he died.
I guess Arthur influenced many of us re exercise and gym equipment. I have been influenced more than others because I still design my own gym equipment. I can't say this enterprise has been profitable but it has been interesting because it is very challenging to design new machines that work and later you see people in your gym using them and thanking you for what you made. It is far cheaper to buy gym equipment. When you build your own from scratch and not copy anyone it usually takes at least 3 prototypes to get it right. After the 5th machine you pretty well have it spot on. I doubt people out there realise this. That is why Arthur and myself resent other manufacturers copying us. They are stealing all that thought and work that went into getting it right. What amuses me is most other designers probably don't appreciate what good designs are and they end up changing critical things that should have been retained. You can see this in the latest Nautilus machines that were changed from the original machines. They now have a lat pulldown machine that you pull down from in front of you. I was told that these machines have been beta tested and selected because it mimicked what apes do in the jungle. Good grief, I thought, it doesn't feel good to pull down like that. The machine Arthur made back in the 80's was much better and it had a motion that was a perfect arc. They no longer build that machine but it had a lever with a counterbalance on it and you sat in the middle under two handles above you. That was a great machine but has been replaced by what I consider a silly design. I know Arthur would have shaken his head by what happened to many of his ideas in that company.
Arthur has left a legacy and who knows where it will all end. He was a giant in an industry that eventually touched most of us directly or indirectly. It is a pity that he wasn't honoured in his lifetime the way Joe Weider was. Who will ever forget that day Arthur had Joe in his headquarters and he challenged Joe about where his research facility was. Joe had to be nimble and his answer was amusing, "Arthur, can I go to the bathroom?" That might not be exactly what he said but that is the gist of the story Ray Mentzer related to me.
Another trick Arthur would do was fly in heaps of people to his facility in his private jet. Upon landing at his private strip in Jumbolair he would turn the air conditioning off and leave the people sweltering in their seats for perhaps half an hour. Then these distressed people would be escorted past dangerous crocodiles until they reached where Arthur was. Ray said this was Arthur's way of preparing people so they would be putty in his hands. I don't doubt Arthur could have pulled stunts like this. Arthur preferred not to have much resistance when pontificating about his theories and equipment.
I have to laugh at the phone call I made to Arthur in 1994. I was telling him about my biceps supinator machine and we had a lively conversation. I had my ex listening in on the other line. I told Arthur I would like to visit him one day and have a great talk. He didn't mind a bit. He said, "Make sure you bring two 14 year old girls with you!" I told him not to encourage me because I was bad enough as it was. I always wondered why 14? Arthur sure was irreverent and did his own thing. He did say he preferred younger women, faster planes and bigger crocodiles.
They did an interview on Arthur on 60 Minutes many years ago about this cavalier guy. He sure was interesting to listen to. He told the reporter at the end to come and visit him and he would teach him a thing or two. Yes, that is the Arthur I remember and liked.
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which modern day brand of machine is best in ur opinion?
where is the best place in aus to get machines?
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I doubt any one company makes the best machines. What many gym owners do is select particular pieces of gym equipment that have reputations as being superior. This can be misleading, too, because equipment such as Hammer gets a reputation from bodybuilders who like one or two pieces and some gyms install the whole Hammer line which really isn't getting the best equipment. You can attend the fitness trade shows that are annual events in Sydney in the fall. Otherwise keep an eye out for auctions and go along and try equipment. You can do the same thing and visit different gyms and have workouts there and make up your own mind about how good machines are.
A severe test about equipment is to warm up and then use a heavy resistance. If the machine is friendly to the joints it will still feel good. If not you will instantly tell then. Many machines feel okay when using light resistances. A good machine will have plenty of weight on the stack and adjustments to accommodate different sized people. A good gym might install different pieces of the same machine for women and men.
Most companies haven't a clue about making an assisted dip-chin machine and don't have an arc which is required by the movement. If the movement goes straight up and down look for another company. My chinning machine recently accommodated a 210Kg woman who did chins by herself for the first time in her life and was pleased she could do it.
A warning about gym owners. They are even more expert than the guys here on Getbig. Some sell better machines than they retain.
Arthur told me that he preferred to associate with criminals than gym owners! He said the criminals were a better class of people than gym owners!
Since this is a thread about Arthur Jones, have a look at the Medx range. I liked many of them, especially the shoulder machine and the triceps machine. The triceps machine is the only one that gives you plenty of resistance in the near extended position. The biceps machine was okay, too. Lots of good designs there and nicely made machines they are, too.
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I am in Melbourne.
I wish I had more space in my house I would build my own gym but my new house just does not have the space I need.
My dream set up would be a Smith Machine, lat pulldown, dipping bars, hack squat machine and a leg press (I would use this for calves mainly), and a leg extension machine.
In fact, After my next workout at my commercial gym I will see what brand machines they use and let u know to see what u think of the brand.
What is ur opinion on those home gyms which have the lat pull down, pec deck and leg extension in one unit? are they generally bad quality?
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vince does your supinator machine provide progressive resistance to supination of the wirsts?
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Knny187 presents a theory which states that everyone is different so methods must be different. The reality is far from that. If it were true then exercise science would be pointless let alone debating anything about muscles.
Uhm..not a theory
any exercise will provide results.....but....some people respond differently with applied loads, reps, sets
You can't argue the fact behind metabolisms, body compositions, muscle fibers, etcc....
Otherwise.....
everyone in the gym that trained would look just like you
;)
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Uhm..not a theory
any exercise will provide results.....but....some people respond differently with applied loads, reps, sets
people gentically cope with the stress with varying success.
the method which is best is stimulus (eg- h.i.t) the response to that stimulus depends upon genetics.
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I think we can talk about the contributions of Arthur Jones and comment on what has happened to theories he presented. Those of us who were current with what Arthur wrote did wonder if his principles would spread to the bodybuilders. It never happened. Just about everyone uses volume of one kind or another. Arthur's dream of brief workouts was wishful thinking. That is not what big muscles are for. The relationship between strength and large size diminishes beyond a certain size. There after it is related to muscular endurance and thus, volume, and not intensity is the key factor. What seemed to make sense when Arthur wrote about it turned out not to be what was found in bodybuilders.
His theories were logical and well written.
Why are you contradicting yourself?
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Being logical and reasonable doesn't necessarily mean you are right. A false premise can lead to true and false conclusions.
There is no doubt Arthur would be able to 'correct' us if he argued with us. That is the way the guy was. Unfortunately for hypertrophy theory and bodybuilding, it is unlikely that HIT explains all growth and lack of growth and it doesn't generate maximum hypertrophy without Arthur personally supervising guys like Sergio.
It saddens me that so many accept his ideas without testing them. If rapid growth doesn't follow from using this method then abandon the method and try something else. That is what Arthur would have done. His disciples haven't a clue about that principle. If it works it is useful; if it doesn't work, then try something else. This is the real Arthur Jones method. That he wrote about things so clearly probably brainwashed a generation of thinking bodybuilders. None of them have achieved much at all re competitions. Arthur promised that the time to reach one's peak would be halved or less if following Nautilus principles. That was a pipedream. Missing is the volume requirement in the formula. Without volume there is no maximum hypertrophy. His disciples can shout all they like but that is a fact to those who have tested the methods. Scientists are not interested in this phenomenon. Big muscles have always been taboo at colleges and universities. Nothing has changed or is likely to change re attitudes to musclemen.
Believing something doesn't make it true. Thankfully, the majority of muscleheads plod along using tried and tested methods. Too bad so many use drugs. Nowadays the training doesn't seem as important now that so many gurus advocate drug stacking and other nonsense. The sport is so far from natural it isn't funny.
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Vince,
Honestly I thought you were just argument mongering.... but now I see that you're simply a bit behind the times with regard to how HIT has evolved and self-corrected over the years: it's a working theory...
The requirement regarding muscular endurance has been addressed in scientific studies only to show that there is NO requirement for muscular endurance in hypertrophy stimulation... the growth attributable to volume training has more to do with metabolic demand than muscular stimulus.
For example:
Those training with Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty often found their progress grind to a halt after a few months of fantastic progress... for most that was a result of the body still being metabolically stimulated by the demands of volume training and the increased muscular stimulation from short workouts. For a few hardgainers (those of frail constitution and/or suffering underlying metabolic complications) Heavy Duty continues to work as the bodily stress is still sufficient. That's why Heavy Duty has turned quite a few 120 lb weaklings into 200 lb muscle men with 17 min workouts every two weeks.
Similarly those using HIT who decided to opt for split-body workouts also found their progress grind to a halt... seems there just isn't any method of stimulating continuous growth with a calf/bicep workout: no metabolic demand.
True HIT advocates never experienced this as Arthur Jones expounded the logical argument for whole body workouts every chance he got...
One set workouts alone are not sufficient to stimulate continuous progress... there are other requirements, Dr Ellington Darden has integrated these into HIT theory over the years:
-whole body workouts
-limited frequency (three 30 min workouts per week, two 30 min workouts for advanced trainees)
-squatting and/or deadlifting in each and every workout
-multijoint compound exercises for all the major muscle groups
-intense contractions
-sufficient rest (including the occasional layoff if necessary)
-heavy weights
...integrating ALL these principles into ones workouts will yield continuous progress EVEN for the natural trainee.
Seems all this time we've been searching for the one and only cause of muscular hypertrophy when we should have been looking for the COMBINATION of stimuli responsible... come to think about it, we should have known multiple factors were involved as neither marathon runners, sprinters nor manual workers build musclebound physiques: obviously neither volume, nor intensity nor frequency alone are sufficient.
Big muscles are best built by muscular contractions of sufficient intensity to cause systemic stress.
Hence, big muscles are best built by the modern version of HIT...
There are certain provisos though... HIT demands more of its disciples than most are capable of giving. I've lost a few training partners to the lure of no-progress volume workouts... apparently one of the side-effects of a couple months of puke-inducing workouts is a sudden burning desire to trade bodybuilding for ping-pong.
One of the latest articles by Ellington on www.drdarden.com addresses the biggest drawback of HIT... the need for Arthur Jones to supervise your workouts.
The Luke
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Vince,
Having read your replies carefully I realise that you are not reading what anyone else is posting.
Agreed; this is what discredits Vince; he's basically preaching, talking at others. Not very interesting, especially from someone who professes to like and wish for higher levels of discourse on getbig. He could do better, then it would be more interesting.
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Agreed; this is what discredits Vince; he's basically preaching, talking at others. Not very interesting, especially from someone who professes to like and wish for higher levels of discourse on getbig. He could do better, then it would be more interesting.
at least vince doesn't use a bowflex and pretrend to be a training mod... old homo
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All the versions I have heard about this mention it was Callard.
I ask Pete G. and he seemed to know the story very well.
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Vince: I have some of that footage of Arthur on 60 minutes. Was that the Australian version of 60 minutes? Do you happen to have the complete footage by chance?