Author Topic: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?  (Read 1771 times)

Bindare_Dundat

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Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« on: May 07, 2011, 01:12:53 PM »
Some highlights from an article in the  washing Times. Is this person wrong?


Bin Laden’s goal was to trigger a clash of civilizations. He sought to pit radical Islam against the West, becoming a galvanizing force for Muslim militants everywhere. He gave new life to the Islamist project of imposing a global caliphate based on Shariah law. Revolutionary Islamism has tens of millions of followers, spreading like locusts across the Middle East, North Africa, Asia and Europe. Bin Laden may be dead, but his macabre ghost lives on.

Bin Laden’s strategic ambition was to suck the United States into prolonged guerrilla wars. Being a man of the East, he understood that Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. Britain, czarist Russia, the Soviet Union - their armies were broken by Afghanistan’s harsh terrain and fierce tribes. His aim was to bankrupt America, slowly bleeding us as we fought one counterinsurgency operation after another. In short, he set a trap - and we rushed headlong into it.

After the fall of the Taliban, he (Bush), embarked upon nation-building. The Muslim world was to be made safe for democracy. America was pushing a “freedom agenda” for Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Iran, Palestine, Egypt and Lebanon.

The results have been disastrous. In Iraq, about 4,400 U.S. troops are dead, 30,000 have been maimed or wounded, and more than $1 trillion has been spent. Instead of being a pro-Western pluralistic democracy, the Iraqi government is championing Shariah and drifting into Tehran’s orbit. Iran has benefited at America’s expense.

In Afghanistan, President Obama’s troop surge has failed. It has become America’s longest war - nearly a decade and counting. Our troops are hamstrung by strict rules of engagement that make any kind of victory impossible. In fact, U.S. forces have been transformed into a muscular Peace Corps. Their job is not so much to kill terrorists as to build roads, schools and hospitals.

Our drone strikes are inciting mass anti-Americanism
among both Afghans and Pakistanis. Our supposed ally in Kabul, President Hamid Karzai, is a corrupt thug who is openly contemptuous of U.S. military involvement. He is constantly fanning public opinion against America. Rather than winning, we are losing the hearts and minds of ordinary Afghans. Nearly 1,000 U.S. soldiers have died since Mr. Obama took office. Billions in U.S. aid has been stolen by corrupt local officials. American blood and treasure are being squandered in a futile - and reckless - effort at nation-building.

Since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. establishment has embraced a globalist ideology: democratic universalism. Both neoconservatives and liberal interventionists believe America must spread democratic values, even through the barrel of a gun.

America has become the new Roman Empire. And like all multinational empires, we are overextended, our military is stretched too thin, and our treasury is depleted.


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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 01:16:42 PM »
lol @ people who respond with 'that's nonsense' without addressing those points.

George Whorewell

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2011, 01:19:54 PM »
He lost. He lost big.

Islamic terrorism went from a non-thought to a major priority. Al Queda itself was decimated and continues to be destroyed on a daily basis. Outside of failed terrorist state Gaza, no other country in the Middle East has embraced his warped ideology. Iraq is in good shape, Guantanamo is still open and fish are swimming out of Bin Ladens eyeballs.

We will probably leave Afghanistan sooner rather than later, Pakistan is desperate to get back in our good graces and despite the fact that the US president is a naive liberal hump at best, Drone attacks have skyrocketed on his watch.


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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2011, 01:21:16 PM »
lol @ people who respond with 'that's nonsense' without addressing those points.


lol @ morons too stupid to offer any insights of their own without mindlessly pointing at an article someone else wrote and not elaborating.

George Whorewell

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2011, 01:25:23 PM »
Some highlights from an article in the  washing Times. Is this person wrong?


Bin Laden’s goal was to trigger a clash of civilizations. He sought to pit radical Islam against the West, becoming a galvanizing force for Muslim militants everywhere. He gave new life to the Islamist project of imposing a global caliphate based on Shariah law. Revolutionary Islamism has tens of millions of followers, spreading like locusts across the Middle East, North Africa, Asia and Europe. Bin Laden may be dead, but his macabre ghost lives on.

Bin Laden’s strategic ambition was to suck the United States into prolonged guerrilla wars. Being a man of the East, he understood that Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. Britain, czarist Russia, the Soviet Union - their armies were broken by Afghanistan’s harsh terrain and fierce tribes. His aim was to bankrupt America, slowly bleeding us as we fought one counterinsurgency operation after another. In short, he set a trap - and we rushed headlong into it.

After the fall of the Taliban, he (Bush), embarked upon nation-building. The Muslim world was to be made safe for democracy. America was pushing a “freedom agenda” for Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Iran, Palestine, Egypt and Lebanon.

The results have been disastrous. In Iraq, about 4,400 U.S. troops are dead, 30,000 have been maimed or wounded, and more than $1 trillion has been spent. Instead of being a pro-Western pluralistic democracy, the Iraqi government is championing Shariah and drifting into Tehran’s orbit. Iran has benefited at America’s expense.

In Afghanistan, President Obama’s troop surge has failed. It has become America’s longest war - nearly a decade and counting. Our troops are hamstrung by strict rules of engagement that make any kind of victory impossible. In fact, U.S. forces have been transformed into a muscular Peace Corps. Their job is not so much to kill terrorists as to build roads, schools and hospitals.

Our drone strikes are inciting mass anti-Americanism
among both Afghans and Pakistanis. Our supposed ally in Kabul, President Hamid Karzai, is a corrupt thug who is openly contemptuous of U.S. military involvement. He is constantly fanning public opinion against America. Rather than winning, we are losing the hearts and minds of ordinary Afghans. Nearly 1,000 U.S. soldiers have died since Mr. Obama took office. Billions in U.S. aid has been stolen by corrupt local officials. American blood and treasure are being squandered in a futile - and reckless - effort at nation-building.

Since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. establishment has embraced a globalist ideology: democratic universalism. Both neoconservatives and liberal interventionists believe America must spread democratic values, even through the barrel of a gun.

America has become the new Roman Empire. And like all multinational empires, we are overextended, our military is stretched too thin, and our treasury is depleted.



(1) That was not Bin Ladens mission or strategic ambition

(2) Iraq is not going anywhere near Sharia law; but then again what else would you expect from the Washington Post?

(3) It is too early to tell if the troop surge has failed, especially since Bin Laden is now dead.

(4) That drone attacks are inspiring anti Americanism is pure nonsense and wholly irrelevant. These are areas where America is hated anyway. An unmanned drone with a targeted killing is a hell of a lot better than putting our soldiers in harms way. The author of this article is a mindless hack.

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2011, 01:28:30 PM »
Al-Qaida is "bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy", Osama bin Laden claims, in a section of his latest videotape which has just come to light.
Delivering a financial report on the "war on terror", he says that every dollar spent by al-Qaida in attacking the US has cost Washington $1m (£545,000) in economic fallout and military spending.

The remarks appear in a full transcript of the 18-minute tape posted on the website of al-Jazeera. They were omitted last Friday when the TV station broadcast extracts.

Referring to Afghanistan, Bin Laden says: "We, alongside the mujahideen, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat ... So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/03/usa.alqaida

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2011, 01:45:16 PM »
Several Taliban detainees who had been captured in February after being observed placing bombs in the culverts of roads used by civilians and military convoys near Kandahar were fed, given medical treatment, then released by American troops frustrated by a policy they say is forcing them to kick loose enemies who are trying to kill them.

Despite what American soldiers say was a mountain of evidence, which included a video of the men planting the bomb and chemical traces found on their hands, there was nothing the soldiers who had captured them could do but feed and care for them for 96 hours.


washingtonexaminer.com.. .



We've read tons of stories like these. The military is too busy building schools and paving roads and other bullshit. No clear mission, nothing. Don't want to offend any of the locals. Complete waste of time and resources, costing enormous amounts of money we don't have. Bomb, rebuild, bomb, rebuild. capture, release, let them grow opium or theyll side with the Taliban..etc...


Soilders are frustrated as hell and it's killing moral. If your going to go into a war, why the fuck stay there for 10 plus years doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result? i would call this a failure.

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2011, 01:49:55 PM »

(2) Iraq is not going anywhere near Sharia law; but then again what else would you expect from the Washington Post?
 

But everyone sure seems to have thier underwear in a knot about it coming to the States and it's people are protected by the Constitution and those that are suppose to enforce the law. So if people are worried about Sharia Law coming to America, why isnt it possible that it's spreading to a place as unstable as Iraq?

George Whorewell

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2011, 04:32:18 PM »
By that logic, we should be worried about it going anywhere and everywhere. You forget that the people of Iraq turned against Al Queda; which is why we were able to make progress there. Think about it. Arab Spring almost toppled every country in that region where there has been unrest as of late. Iraq was largely left out of the frying pan. There are huge minorities there that by design want no part of that way of life. That also goes for the Muslims who jumped ship against the radicals who tried to force America out of the country.

People in this country fear Sharia coming to America because there are too many braindead liberals in positions of power here. A "nobody is better than anyone else and everyone is the best at everything" psychosis infects liberals at the expense of reality. There is no such thing as liberalism in the middle east. There is only blood thirsty extremist, minority or average every day nobody who just wants to lead a normal life with enough food and water.

Roger Bacon

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2011, 05:04:57 PM »
Did Bin Laden win?

He's responsible for nearly bankrupting us, our constitutional rights have been abused, and eroded away in some ways, our military is spread thin allover the globe, we now accept the fact that we have to suffer abuse at our own airports by our own people in order to travel.  

Someones goal was definitely achieved.  We've been changed, and weakened big time, over some boogeyman that we can't even really define.


Why did we invade Iraq again?  ???  ::)

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2011, 06:09:08 PM »
Some highlights from an article in the  washing Times. Is this person wrong?


Bin Laden’s goal was to trigger a clash of civilizations.



Yes.  Wrong.  His goal was the destruction of the United States. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2011, 06:12:43 PM »
(1) That was not Bin Ladens mission or strategic ambition

(2) Iraq is not going anywhere near Sharia law; but then again what else would you expect from the Washington Post?

(3) It is too early to tell if the troop surge has failed, especially since Bin Laden is now dead.

(4) That drone attacks are inspiring anti Americanism is pure nonsense and wholly irrelevant. These are areas where America is hated anyway. An unmanned drone with a targeted killing is a hell of a lot better than putting our soldiers in harms way. The author of this article is a mindless hack.

I agree with this. 

I will say that his attack on 9/11 was successful, because it brought the country to its knees and caused us to change the way we live.  So by definition Al Qaeda's terrorism worked. 

But he didn't win the "war."  I'm not even sure the war on terror will ever end.  It's essentially war against an ideology. 

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2011, 06:53:36 PM »
How could you agree with that when I just provided a quote that came out of Bin Ladens own mouth?

He wanted Americas military to be stretched thin and the countries finances drained. It looks like both those things are happening and as you said the war on terror isnt anywhere near done.

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2011, 07:00:30 PM »
How could you agree with that when I just provided a quote that came out of Bin Ladens own mouth?

He wanted Americas military to be stretched thin and the countries finances drained. It looks like both those things are happening and as you said the war on terror isnt anywhere near done.

Here is what came out of Bin Laden/Al Qaeda's mouth:  it is the duty of all Muslims to kill Americans, including innocent civilians, wherever Americans are found.  An excerpt from the Fatwa he issued in 1998:

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

Also, I started a thread on this subject last year:  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=356548.0

BTW, P.I.P. was posting as Cy Tolliver in that thread. 

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2011, 07:12:49 PM »
What you posted goes without saying but one of strategies was to financially cripple the country. I got the feeling you and George disagreed with this.

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2011, 07:18:15 PM »
What you posted goes without saying but one of strategies was to financially cripple the country. I got the feeling you and George disagreed with this.

I agree.  I don't think either one of us is disagreeing with Osama having a goal of financially crippling the country.  That's actually one of the goals of terrorism (see the thread/link I posted). 

I was disagreeing with the premise of the article you posted:  "Bin Laden’s goal was to trigger a clash of civilizations."  His goal was to kill Americans.  Everything else was gravy. 

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2011, 08:39:36 PM »
How could you agree with that when I just provided a quote that came out of Bin Ladens own mouth?


I've noticed that with some of these posters facts have no place here, gut feelings, and opinion are much more important.

Wrong.  His goal was the destruction of the United States. 

So according to Beach Bum, Osama (an intelligent individual) thought he was going to destroy America by allegedly destroying two buildings? ???  ;D

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2011, 12:31:41 AM »
He lost. He lost big.

Islamic terrorism went from a non-thought to a major priority. Al Queda itself was decimated and continues to be destroyed on a daily basis. Outside of failed terrorist state Gaza, no other country in the Middle East has embraced his warped ideology. Iraq is in good shape, Guantanamo is still open and fish are swimming out of Bin Ladens eyeballs.

We will probably leave Afghanistan sooner rather than later, Pakistan is desperate to get back in our good graces and despite the fact that the US president is a naive liberal hump at best, Drone attacks have skyrocketed on his watch.


Says who? And compared to what?
We don't know if this will rally Al Queda even more...and lets face it, we've created the next generation by invovling ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan...those lil kids who've seen their fathers, brothers, uncles shot, blown up, etc...by the US "invaders" (as they like to call us, because are in their country, regardless of our agenda), will take up the warped ideology of Bin laden and Company...

We may have plans to leave Afghanistan...but history tells us, when you lay with someone with STDs, you just might get the gift that keeps on giving---meaning, we will always feel the effects of Afghanistan, whther it be economically, thru the drug trade, or politically.

George Whorewell

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2011, 04:08:44 PM »
 ::)

America should have been as complacent and willfully blind as possible and treated Islamic terrorists as no big deal. Then, after every attack we should have done nothing except apologized and given into the demands of the terrorists so they would be nice to us. The myriad of attacks that were prevented because of post 911 protocols should have been allowed to happen because they were no big deal. We should have never killed Osama. Then and only then, America would have won.

Is that about right?

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2011, 04:22:09 PM »
::)

America should have been as complacent and willfully blind as possible and treated Islamic terrorists as no big deal. Then, after every attack we should have done nothing except apologized and given into the demands of the terrorists so they would be nice to us. The myriad of attacks that were prevented because of post 911 protocols should have been allowed to happen because they were no big deal. We should have never killed Osama. Then and only then, America would have won.

Is that about right?

No, we would have done better by pin pointing our energy, having very specific plans and executing them with full force. What we have are, rules of engagement that are detrimental to our soilders, a wastefull and frustratingly long campaign of broad generalizations on a war on terror.

 

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2011, 04:26:43 PM »
No, we would have done better by pin pointing our energy, having very specific plans and executing them with full force. What we have are, rules of engagment that are detrimental to our soilders, a wastefull and frustratingly long campaign of broad generalizations on a war on terror.

 

That's because the liberal establishment has made it as difficult as possible for America to succeed. They are the ones who want terrorists on the battlefield mirandized and tried for "crimes" in federal court. They are the ones who  do pro bono work in defending Guantanamo detainees. They are the ones who don't want to use enhanced interrogation techniques. They are the ones on the Supreme Court who ignored 60 years of precedent in declaring Guanatanmo bay part of the US mainland. They are the ones who want us to fight like we are launching a PR campaign instead of trying to win a war. I've said this 10000 times; They do not want America to succeed. They do not want us to defeat Islamic terrorism. They want America to be weak.

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2011, 04:56:18 PM »
I credit the people that have pussified this politically correct society and transformed war from a battle for victory to a game of nation building.

We went into Afghanistan to decimate Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda has, for the most part, had its head cut off. The ideology lives on but their ability to stage spectacular attacks has been severely hindered.

Let's also not forget that we could have been out of Afghanistan 10 years ago if Pakistan didn't: 1) Let him escape over the mountains when the CIA paramilitary guys and Delta had him cornered early on in Tora Bora and 2) Spend the next 10 years taking billions of dollars a year from us while orchestrating the insurgency and sheltering the guys we're after.

What OBL did teach us is that the best way to deal with these terrorist trash is by taking the fight right to their doorstep through the use of small special forces teams from the SEALs, CIA paramilitary and the like. Fuck nation building. Our goal should be to kill or capture terrorists, something we excel at.

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2011, 05:09:51 PM »
I credit the people that have pussified this politically correct society and transformed war from a battle for victory to a game of nation building.

We went into Afghanistan to decimate Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda has, for the most part, had its head cut off. The ideology lives on but their ability to stage spectacular attacks has been severely hindered.

Let's also not forget that we could have been out of Afghanistan 10 years ago if Pakistan didn't: 1) Let him escape over the mountains when the CIA paramilitary guys and Delta had him cornered early on in Tora Bora and 2) Spend the next 10 years taking billions of dollars a year from us while orchestrating the insurgency and sheltering the guys we're after.

What OBL did teach us is that the best way to deal with these terrorist trash is by taking the fight right to their doorstep through the use of small special forces teams from the SEALs, CIA paramilitary and the like. Fuck nation building. Our goal should be to kill or capture terrorists, something we excel at.

We will continue nation building for the foreseeable future. That has always been part of American foreign policy.
I hate the State.

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2011, 05:28:11 PM »
That's because the liberal establishment has made it as difficult as possible for America to succeed. They are the ones who want terrorists on the battlefield mirandized and tried for "crimes" in federal court. They are the ones who  do pro bono work in defending Guantanamo detainees. They are the ones who don't want to use enhanced interrogation techniques. They are the ones on the Supreme Court who ignored 60 years of precedent in declaring Guanatanmo bay part of the US mainland. They are the ones who want us to fight like we are launching a PR campaign instead of trying to win a war. I've said this 10000 times; They do not want America to succeed. They do not want us to defeat Islamic terrorism. They want America to be weak.

Bingo. 

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Re: Did Osama Bin Laden win the war?
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2011, 07:16:56 PM »
We will continue nation building for the foreseeable future. That has always been part of American foreign policy.

"We". Hahahaha. You fled this country 15+ years ago because you're a pussy who can't find a country he fits in with. Why don't you tear up your passport, career student?