Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: spoonman on September 11, 2005, 10:05:23 PM
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owner of my gym who has won many titles and looks like a pro never does deadlifts and says they aren't needed and that effective when you can do bent rows,etc
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No they aren`t overrated. Quickest mass builder in my opinion. Especially if you are natural.
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They are the quickest way to blow out your back!
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They are good for mass building, but I've found that deads take too great a toll on one's nervous system.
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Not as bad as squats
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i think it may have lee P. that said if you have a good back as it is then they are not a big deal, but if your back is a lagging body part then they are the best way to bring it up. if you look at the guys who sware by DL they always have a thicker back, a thicker body in general i.e. dorian, coleman, JJ and so forth. i usually them every other week or so.
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If i could do only one exercise for my body, it would be Deadlifts.
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owner of my gym who has won many titles and looks like a pro never does deadlifts and says they aren't needed and that effective when you can do bent rows,etc
I think DL's are great provided your form is perfect, if you can't maintain form then don't do them at all because you will only fuck up your back.
If you DL heavy for 1RM like a Powerlifter you should probably on do them every other week or the wear and tear on your body will start to hurt you in other areas.
When I was younger I would do them heavy every week, but now that I've learned what my body responds to I do them every other week.....give the CNS a chance to recover.
DIV
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NO. Perfect form is a standard for any excercise. Deadlifts are the BEST, get huge offa DL's. Staple move! :D
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NO. Perfect form is a standard for any excercise. Deadlifts are the BEST, get huge offa DL's. Staple move! :D
The reason I stress form is because most people use shitty form and fuck up their backs doing compound movements like DL's.
If you can't do DL's with form, you should do them at all......
Of course you should do perfect form on all movements.......but how many people in the gym do you see who don't..... ::)
DIV
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The reason I stress form is because most people use shitty form and f**k up their backs doing compound movements like DL's.
If you can't do DL's with form, you should do them at all......
Of course you should do perfect form on all movements.......but how many people in the gym do you see who don't..... ::)Your right DIV. Maybe 20% people in most gyms do move with good form, let alone DL's. DL's are a ough move in the fact that if you aint doin right dont do cause they along with squats will put you out of commision for a long time. Gotta start at the bottom and work your way up. Seen too many try to get away with lifting heavy for egos sake. Its okay though cause they aint round after two weeks or so, lol. Kinda the same with bench a little. People loadin too much weight or too loose form, only a matter of time, maybe 4-6 weeks for they hurt shoulder or roatator cuff. When I worked at gym/health club years back used to have a pool with a few collegues about the new members. After watching their first workouts we would bet on how long before the stopped comming to the gym due to injury. lol
DIV
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Sounds like the owner is a pus-bag. What shows has he won? Not the Hoboken Invitational either. People who can't deadlift for shit, criticize it. Just like pusses that don't squat say that squats hurt their back/knees/index finger, etc.
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They are one of the best. Be careful because going heavy on deads to often is a great way to burn out. Doing good mornings, pull throughs, cleans, and different variations of squats will help your dead numbers while your not doing them.
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Deads are the best.
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I think deadlifting should be a presidential qualifier....
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how does DL'ing affect your nervous system ???
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how does DL'ing affect your nervous system ???
I was wondering the same.
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I agree with the nervous system comment. I deadlifted for years but to combine it with heavy squats week in week out is unrealistic, it's just too much on the body.
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I agree with the nervous system comment. I deadlifted for years but to combine it with heavy squats week in week out is unrealistic, it's just too much on the body.
That's what I meant. If you squat and do deads too frequently as a natural, it becomes counter-productive. Your body begins to breakdown.
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That's what I meant. If you squat and do deads too frequently as a natural, it becomes counter-productive. Your body begins to breakdown.
Can you be more specific how it breaks down your body? And how it effects the CNS.
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Can you be more specific how it breaks down your body? And how it effects the CNS.
Scientifically, I can't give you a great explanation, but I just know that when I was doing both squats and deads every week, my body felt really worn out and depleted (yes, I was eating well- so that wasn't it). Also, I always felt like a back injury was right around the corner when doing both. I haven't squatted or deadlifted in years. I think both are beneficial in moderation, but just don't like the way my body feels when I do them. I train exclusively for self-improvement and recreation- so I do want I want to do and no more.
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Hell no they aren't overrated.
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Like squat's have to stick to them,have tried in past just never really got feel for them,I squat though every leg day in one form or another.Dead's are all form to be successful.
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Can you be more specific how it breaks down your body? And how it effects the CNS.
I lift for strength, not size.......so I've read up on this.
When your training style is based on higher weight, lower reps your body relies more on the Central Nervous System because the reps are intense and the negatives really take a toll on you. It's basically double the workload and over time when you combine compound movements in the same week........heavy incline DP presses, heavy Deads, Heavy Squats......your CNS won't recover in time for the next weeks workout. The CNS works on a feedback loop like the hypothalmus and when it gets burned out it needs time to recuperate. This is why it's best to do these type of movements every other week instead of every week.
DIV
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This is why it's best to do these type of movements every other week instead of every week.
Interesting post DIV.
I believe it's possible to do the compound lifts quite often, if you do a couple of things:
* drop all disco excersises.
* lift explosive, all reps with good speed.
* avoid failure
* cycle the loads, really heavy loads every 10-21 days.
YIP
Zack
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hedgehog, can i squat heavy every week as a natural if i dont do deads?
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I did squats and deads every week and got waaay bigger. Do them both you pussies
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i trained for almost 3 years before i started doing deadlifts on a regular basis. they are by far the best overall back builder there is in my opinion. the amount of strain they put on the CNS has alot to do with how heavy you go. i wouldn't max out every week obviously but i usually go as low as 5 reps each week and i have no problems recovering from that. i also agree that doing heavy squats and heavy deads in the same week can wear you down easily. i don't go below 10 reps of squats anymore because i get better results in the 10-20 reps range.
8)
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My grip is astoundingly feminine, so much so that it gives out way, way before my legs are really being pushed (and I'm not lifting much atall). Thats even with straps.
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The problem with deads is that it's impossible to do them without stressing your lower back, especially if you're tall and lanky.
Notice in the pic of how the bar is scraping the guy's shins. To complete the lift, he's gonna have to lean over and put his lower back in a precarious position.
(http://www.fitstep.com/Misc/Newsletter-archives/graphics/bottom-deadlifts.jpg)
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Man,
I never have a light day. EVER. I lift Heavy every single time. I do Deadlifts and Squats in the same week all the time.
To recover I take 2-4 days off between each workout. There is no reason to lift light in my opinion.
Im just telling you what works for me. Also, you gotta keep your calories high enough even on rest days. 4-7000 baby! haha
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Man,
I never have a light day. EVER. I lift Heavy every single time. I do Deadlifts and Squats in the same week all the time.
To recover I take 2-4 days off between each workout. There is no reason to lift light in my opinion.
Im just telling you what works for me. Also, you gotta keep your calories high enough even on rest days. 4-7000 baby! haha
How much GH?
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This isn't anything profound, but merely personal experience.
but after years of lifting with the standard back exercises I don't feel as If I really ever developed a a strong thick back. I tried most standard back exercises (excluding Any and all DL's) and saw very little development in my lower back or in the thickness of my back as a whole.
I never really cared about DL's as I couldn't quite pinpoint a "contraction" in a particular muscle group, therefore I saw very little use for DL's. Not to mention I had a bad back and felt that I would be endangering my back by performing DL's.
It wasn't until I completely wrote off Bodybuilding and switched to Powerlifting that I Incorporated DL's into my normal routine.
It was at that time that my back "blew up". almost instantly I saw the thickness in my back develop in a way I had figured would never happen. Aside from that with the added thickness and strength to my back, I have had very minimal back problems, where before it was a problem that contently plagued me and often my workout routines had been adjusted to accommodate.
The irony is this had happened at the point where I no longer cared what my back looked like. But the over all point is Deadlifts did wonders for me all around and I now feel they are crucial. I cant give you any particular reason aside from mentioning my personal experience.
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Good feedback in here.
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Porter Cotrell doesnt do deadlifts, he says "i'm not a powerlifter and they are a dangerous exercise"..You cant deny his results..
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Porter Cotrell doesnt do deadlifts, he says "i'm not a powerlifter and they are a dangerous exercise"..You cant deny his results..
yOU CANT DENY HIS DRUGS.
Look,
If you are natural you are going to need to do them. If you are juiced you can easily get by without.
Thats the way i see it.
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I've done some local powerlifting comps. and I can tell you for a fact that going heavy every week with deads and squats is eventually going to lead to injury or total burnout. Unless your juicing. Have you ever heard of deloading? Most successful powerlifters do that. I know there are mostly bodybuilder type people on this board, but when your talking about deadlifting heavy every week I dont see how you're going to get anywhere.
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Deads are good but will not make u asthetic.
They widen ur and waste. Yeah u get big but u get blocky unless u have insane taper to start with.
I dun do em any more.
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Deads are good but will not make u asthetic.
They widen ur and waste. Yeah u get big but u get blocky unless u have insane taper to start with.
I dun do em any more.
Thats a myth.
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owner of my gym who has won many titles and looks like a pro never does deadlifts and says they aren't needed and that effective when you can do bent rows,etc
Then he's an idiot. Deadlifts (next to heavy squats) are essential. Nuff said.
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Interesting post DIV.
I believe it's possible to do the compound lifts quite often, if you do a couple of things:
* drop all disco excersises.
* lift explosive, all reps with good speed.
* avoid failure
* cycle the loads, really heavy loads every 10-21 days.
There's alot of misinformation and some good information in this thread.....
Zachary, the problem with what you propose is that I go to failure on all reps and sets and I lift heavy, and most of my sets are in the 6 rep range, excluding warmups and maxes. I only use explosive speed on the positive portions of the reps, conversely I do slow negatives with control thereby getting the best of both worlds but also stressing my CNS twice as much. That said, I retain alot of strength regardless of whether I lose mass or not. That's why I could care less about mass, it comes regardless because of the weight I use, it's the strength that matters.....
Strength is the key.
DIV
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It's not an eating thing or an age thing, once you have enough intensity in your lifts it is hard to do both in the same week all the time. I even made my split a 10 day split to keep doing both all the time but it's not the best way to lift in the end and i went back to each BP once a week.
Back workout now is a heavy movement (T-Bar, bent-over etc), a close grip cable movement and thirdly chin-ups or maybe a wide grip cable movement. My back gets worked hard every week and is one of my best BP's. Dead's help get it that way but to take it further i needed to do these exercises.
Even now, after 3 weeks of lifting i take a rest week, i do a lot of higher intensity cardio workouts, 4-5 a week but i can keep doing them, it's the weights i need a rest from and what wears me down physically.
Look just my opinion, i've been lifting 10 years, this is what works for me, not telling others what to do just take advice as it comes.
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No they aren`t overrated. Quickest mass builder in my opinion. Especially if you are natural.
You're such a c*nt!!!! Thats like saying "don't bother doing concentration curls unless you take gear coz they won't work" think about what you have written before pressing that post button! that way you can avoid people thinking you are a complete tosser(although I feel it may already be too late ;))
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You're such a c*nt!!!! Thats like saying "don't bother doing concentration curls unless you take gear coz they won't work" think about what you have written before pressing that post button! that way you can avoid people thinking you are a complete tosser(although I feel it may already be too late ;))
gO BACK TO mAYHEM YOU weakling.
Everyone knows I can back up what I say.
What can you do besides being head fluffer for Massive G and company?
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To be Coleman maybe.
Bob Chick is proof you can still be world class and not do them, and while he is no Coleman he is still doing ok as a pro.
Bob Chick and "world class" in the same sentance.
Weird.
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I don't do heavy squats and deads in the same week and that works for me so far. So on my heavy DL week I'll do leg presses and maybe front squats for legs, and on my heavy squat week I might replace deads with shrugs in my back workout.
I tried doing all the heavy stuff on a week-in, week-out basis and eventually started waking up in the morning feeling like I'd been run over by a truck. If you're using appreciable poundages in the basic lifts (and not using gear) you've got to pace yourself or it will catch up with you sooner or later.
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To be Coleman maybe.
Bob Chick is proof you can still be world class and not do them, and while he is no Coleman he is still doing ok as a pro.
So what you're saying is that deadlifts (or very heavy lifting in general) is what separates the good from the elite?
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Gee gollies, shouldn't this thread be over on the "Training Q & A" forum?
Anyway, no I don't think deadlifts (dl/dls) are overrated! As a matter-of-fact, IMO the diamond, or hex-bar, dl is arguably the safest and best single muscle mass-building compound exercise in existence!?
The diamond bar allows you to start the dl in a very low top-of-thighs-parallel-to-floor (or even below parallel!) position, and allows you to pull the bar straight-up and back over your heels (a so much safer "bar path" than the straight-bar dl)!! Why, you can even finish off each rep., in the diamond-bar dl, with an effective shrug!
The diamond bar dl actually allows you to combine practically ALL the benefits of BOTH the straight-bar back squat AND the straight-bar dl movements into a SINGLE highly-effective mass-building compound movement (e.g. arguably better than even the breathing back squat for say high reps)!?
The big danger (of course!) with the straight-bar dl is that one has to invariably round their low back with heavy weights, to a greater extent, when clearing their knees. As we all should know, legions-upon-legions of weight-trainers have injured their lower backs attemping PR dls, or struggling to complete those "last few reps."!!
Sure, we all know we should all keep our backs "flat" when we dl, however most of us "slip-up" and round our back for those last few reps., or that PR attempt! And when we do (or when we set the bar down!), we feel that "uhh-oh!" twinge of pain in our lower back!
Of course, some trainees have "low backs of iron" and never experience lower back problems doing straight-bar dls! But sadly, most of us find out the hard way (!) that we are not a member of the "low-backs-of-iron" fraternity!!
All I'm saying is that the diamond-bar dl arguably works the muscles of the thighs, glutes, hips, lower back, and traps, more thoroughly (and much more safely!) than either the straight-bar back squat or the straight-bar dl!? In high-reps., the diamond-bar dl is a great muscle mass, and stamina, builder!!
The diamond-bar dl is certainly a candidate for the title "greatest single compound exercise"...surpassing even the sacrosanct back squat!? This is because it concurrently works more large muscle groups, and provides greater low back and knee protection, than does the barbell back squat!
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deadlifts and other power movements are great for adding mass. if its go enough for ronnie its good enough for me
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gO BACK TO mAYHEM YOU weakling.
Everyone knows I can back up what I say.
What can you do besides being head fluffer for Massive G and company?
Everyone knows you can back up what you say?? do you really believe that you sad little prick? and as for weakling, Anus, if we ever met you would find that not to be the case ;)
Now go and find yourself a nice little poetry board or something where you can go and bore the arse off them instead, oh and BTW, I was on here before you and didn't need to come here just because I was banned from Mayhem.
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??? Deads are a key exercise no matter wich way you cut it.
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Personally, I think and feel that deadlifts are the best overall back exercise, especially for the lower back. I typically do 3 sets of light warmups sets to 'positive failure' (no forced reps, just stopping at earnest muscle fatigue). Then typically it's on to 4 heavy sets of 4 to 6 reps with a weight that induces positive muscle failure between reps 4 thru 6 on week 1 and 3. On weeks 2 and 4, I go lighter and for higher reps, generally 4 sets of 12 to 15 reps - just so I don't strain myself too much and cause a possible injury. This switch-up is because ... well, deadlifts are a taxing exercise on your body, but when performed properly, and intelligently, are also the zenith of back-attack exercises. I don't want an injury, and I'm not in it for the ego.
Add a good mixture of pull-ups, chins, and bent-over rows for a solid overall back workout. The problem I find with most people and their back-related problems (minus any actual physical ailment) is what I refer to as 'the phobia'- and that is caused because people don't know how to properly work within their limits. Your ego must be left at the door if you want to have a safe and productive deadlift regiment (or any other exercise/workout routine for that matter). Your whole body, back especially will grow more from feel, and a full muscle contraction from each rep than an additional 100, 50, 25, or even 10 pounds.
Remember that posture during the deadlift is key. Keep your legs shoulder-width apart, feet evenly spaced and facing forward. Rest on the heels of your feet, they are your foundation. Bow your knees slightly, and keep your back straight and at what your body feels to be its perfect angle, look down when you place your grip and ensure it's how you prefer to do the 'lift. Realign your head with the angle of your back, looking forward, even slightly upward. Focus yourself, and then pull. Keep your body tensed, muscles susceptible to use, and always keeping your back properly aligned. Do not slouch, keep your shoulder-blades near if not fully pinched as you raise the bar; use your legs as a backing, but try not to roll them up your shins. Always lockout and return the weight safely in a reverse motion. As I said before, I prefer not to go to negative failure or forced reps, this is where most deadlift-related strains occur in my opinion. My personal preference is an over-hand, under-hand grip; I switch it up between a thumbs in and thumbs out every other set - just to alter the feel of the deadlift and 'shocking' your body some. Remember - a deadlift works nearly every muscle, allow for the incorporation of other muscle groups - not necessarily to increase the poundages you're lifting - but to enhance the actual exercise and your body's response.
I don't use straps on deadlifts, and that too is a personal choice. If you decide that you want to try and isolate your back that much more, that's cool too and straps provide a good alternative to freeform lifting. Just remember that it's always better to have a complete, functional and balanced body in terms of conditioning (health-wise, not contest cond.), strength and size. The workout to my forearms, noticeable size gains as well as hands/grip strength from incorporating deadlifts into my back routine is amazing and also beneficial to my workout goals.
In the end, yes you can use a variety of different exercises to work your back and make it grow. Yes your back will grow from a routine that does not include deadlifts; but why avoid one of the best compound exercises there is? Lose the ego, lose the fear - the phobia and just go for it.
... Anyways, that's my late-night 2 cents.
P.S.: Your lower back will never be as complete - as thick or as full - if you do not deadlift, and that's the truth.
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no.
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Completely over-rated, especially by some on this site, but a NICE way to blow out your back. For those who like it don't assume that the rest of us need this shyte as a master mass builder for every possible bodypart, and then keep reminding of this need over and over again like a broken record. Definitely not a fundamental exercise and not a great mass builder; there are better overall exercises such as squats or clean n' jerks, that work the body better, crreate more athleticism, and are less stressful.
When was the last time someone complemented a top builder on his lower back development? If that's a factor, there are many other less stressful ways to hit that area. If i need an overall builder, cleans, clean n' jerks or squats are far better overall, and are less stressful.
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1/4 and 1/2 deads work better for me at adding thickness to my lats, with an overhand grip.
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The only way to develop any muscle in the body is to exercise it according to its function in the body.
Bent over rows are a form of a static contraction as far as the lumbar spine is concerned.
While static contractions (isometric contractions) are a form of strength building, they produce strength and possibly some size while in a static contraction.
For complete development and full range-of-motion strength, a static contraction only in one angle is inferior to full range movements.
Author
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Completely over-rated, especially by some on this site, but a NICE way to blow out your back. For those who like it don't assume that the rest of us need this shyte as a master mass builder for every possible bodypart, and then keep reminding of this need over and over again like a broken record. Definitely not a fundamental exercise and not a great mass builder; there are better overall exercises such as squats or clean n' jerks, that work the body better, crreate more athleticism, and are less stressful.
When was the last time someone complemented a top builder on his lower back development? If that's a factor, there are many other less stressful ways to hit that area. If i need an overall builder, cleans, clean n' jerks or squats are far better overall, and are less stressful.
i bet your just bitter..due to not breaking that ever elusive 300lb mark...lol..
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for a taller bodybuilder like myself at 6'2" good leg size was only achievable once i could FULL squat 405lbs+ for reps. I'm natural and always have been so that probably won't sound like much for juicers, but for a natural guy it is not easy. in order to do that and not have lower back issues i need to either do deadlifts (405lbs+ for reps) or good mornings (225lbs+ for reps) every week. for shorterguys it may not be that important, but deads of good mornings are very important for taller guys.
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I didn't see many results from incessant chinning until i started doing deadlifts, at which point i went from being able to do 6-7 unweighted chins to being able to do 8 with 35 lbs in a matter of weeks, it seems.
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Hi....my name is Ledd and.....and......um..... ...well................. ....I still dont know how EXACTLY to do a proper deadlift.
There fine I said it ok! :'(
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I was a HUGE deadlift fan for years. I loved doing it. The past year or so I cut it out because of back pain, and to be honest with you, i don't think i missed a beat. My back still looks just as good as before.
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Gee gollies, shouldn't this thread be over on the "Training Q & A" forum?
Anyway, no I don't think deadlifts (dl/dls) are overrated! As a matter-of-fact, IMO the diamond, or hex-bar, dl is arguably the safest and best single muscle mass-building compound exercise in existence!?
The diamond bar allows you to start the dl in a very low top-of-thighs-parallel-to-floor (or even below parallel!) position, and allows you to pull the bar straight-up and back over your heels (a so much safer "bar path" than the straight-bar dl)!! Why, you can even finish off each rep., in the diamond-bar dl, with an effective shrug!
The diamond bar dl actually allows you to combine practically ALL the benefits of BOTH the straight-bar back squat AND the straight-bar dl movements into a SINGLE highly-effective mass-building compound movement (e.g. arguably better than even the breathing back squat for say high reps)!?
The big danger (of course!) with the straight-bar dl is that one has to invariably round their low back with heavy weights, to a greater extent, when clearing their knees. As we all should know, legions-upon-legions of weight-trainers have injured their lower backs attemping PR dls, or struggling to complete those "last few reps."!!
Sure, we all know we should all keep our backs "flat" when we dl, however most of us "slip-up" and round our back for those last few reps., or that PR attempt! And when we do (or when we set the bar down!), we feel that "uhh-oh!" twinge of pain in our lower back!
Of course, some trainees have "low backs of iron" and never experience lower back problems doing straight-bar dls! But sadly, most of us find out the hard way (!) that we are not a member of the "low-backs-of-iron" fraternity!!
All I'm saying is that the diamond-bar dl arguably works the muscles of the thighs, glutes, hips, lower back, and traps, more thoroughly (and much more safely!) than either the straight-bar back squat or the straight-bar dl!? In high-reps., the diamond-bar dl is a great muscle mass, and stamina, builder!!
The diamond-bar dl is certainly a candidate for the title "greatest single compound exercise"...surpassing even the sacrosanct back squat!? This is because it concurrently works more large muscle groups, and provides greater low back and knee protection, than does the barbell back squat!
I agree .I have a trap/shrug bar and i love it !
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I couldn't have said it any better. I myself am not a member of the, "low-backs-of-iron" fraternity. I pledged, but was kicked out because I am too much of a puss. ;)
Seriously though, at 20 years old I could deadlift all day. At 25 I would start to spasim out with heavy deads, and at 30 if I even try to go heavy on deads at all I might as well get the hot water running in the bath because my back will be so sore and tight that I can barely walk. As a non-competitive lifter it is not worth it for me.
For those of you that can deadlift heavy, good for you. I wish I could as I love the feeling of pulling 500+lbs off the floor, but my body just can't handle that weight any longer naturally.
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Deadlifts are great! I've gotten the best results from them, more than any other single excercise, but don't do partial deads, i tried it once, and had a knot in my lower back for a few days. It could be cause i'm 6'2'' just be careful on partials anyway.
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how do you know when your CNS is burned out? What are the symptoms of CNS burnout?