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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Nutrition, Products & Supplements Info => Topic started by: Princess L on August 03, 2007, 09:31:31 PM
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The following came in a PM.
Can someone with experience/education in this area please respond.
Thanks.
I am a natural and have never been on a cycle or "pro hormones". However, was thinking about taking an anti estrogen in order to rid myself of some water retention and tighten up my chest a bit.
1. Are anti estrogens such as Novaldex or 6-oxo healthy and safe to take (liver/kidneys)?
2. How should they be taken and for how long?
3. Will my estrogen sky rocket once i go off the product resulting in possible gyno and even more water retention?
4. Will my blood work and hormones be effected by taking either of these products?
your assistance is appreciated
thanks
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Ergopharm's 6-OXO and Gaspari's Novedex XT(which I assume you are talking about, as Nolvadex is hard to get and is on a much higher plane than Novedex) are both good products for providing an anti-estrogen effect.
For an anti-estrogen effect of the type that you seem to be looking for (i.e. chest tightening, ridding of excess water) I would go with the Novedex XT from Gaspari for a period of about 6-8 weeks and cycling off from a maximum of 4 tabs per day down to one or two in the last week. I have had friends use the product and they have said that Novedex really provided a good 'leaning out' effect, as well as providing moderate strength gains. One for instance, also had blood drawn afterwards at a physical right after use of the product, and it showed that his liver enzymes had not been spiked in any way and were at safe levels. Although, this should be expected as neither of the two can be described as pro-hormones either, and should not have any negative sides to your liver.
Now for the popular pre-workout drinks that are out......that's another story
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I have used both.
I got better strength gains on 6-OXO but on NOVEDEX XT you almost seem to sharpen up over night.
I am very sensitive to any side effects good or bad and other than weird dreams while being on NOVEDEX XT I had no problems.
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The above stuff does have some effect. Real nolva or Adex or Letro is in a totaly diff leauge.
Get Real deal.
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The above stuff does have some effect. Real nolva or Adex or Letro is in a totaly diff leauge.
Get Real deal.
I agree but as a "legal supplement" it is not possible to buy NOLVADEX as it is a scheduled drug.
Even though real Nolva is half the price of the legal supplements.
Where I live NOLVADEX (KESSARS 20mg TAMOXIFEN By pfizer 30 tabs) costed me the equivalent of $28 on the black market and $4 dollars to over night it.
But "legal supps" like NOVEDEX XT costs nearly $60 dollars a bottle in a supplement store.
Crazy huh
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I agree but as a "legal supplement" it is not possible to buy NOLVADEX as it is a scheduled drug.
Even though real Nolva is half the price of the legal supplements.
Where I live NOLVADEX (KESSARS 20mg TAMOXIFEN By pfizer 30 tabs) costed me the equivalent of $28 on the black market and $4 dollars to over night it.
But "legal supps" like NOVEDEX XT costs nearly $60 dollars a bottle in a supplement store.
Crazy huh
aNOTHER OPTION IS VERY MILD NONAROMATIZING STEROIDS, LIVE vAR, PRIMO, sTAN, tESTpROPRIONATE @ 100EOD
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aNOTHER OPTION IS VERY MILD NONAROMATIZING STEROIDS, LIVE vAR, PRIMO, sTAN, tESTpROPRIONATE @ 100EOD
There is a steroid called "HAVOK" that is EPISTANE.
It is actually a steroid with anti Estrogen properties!!!
The main drug that it is synthesised from EPISTONAL is given to men with breast cancer.
I heard rave reviews from most boards but I never saw it on Getbig.
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There is a steroid called "HAVOK" that is EPISTANE.
It is actually a steroid with anti Estrogen properties!!!
The main drug that it is synthesised from EPISTONAL is given to men with breast cancer.
I heard rave reviews from most boards but I never saw it on Getbig.
Is it Luperon Depot? (Formastane) A womens breast cancer drug? IT ROCKS IF YOU EVER GET HANDS ON IT.
ESP GOOD PCT.
It'll Have you HARD in every way before day 3! ;D
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Is it Luperon Depot? (Formastane) A womens breast cancer drug? IT ROCKS IF YOU EVER GET HANDS ON IT.
ESP GOOD PCT.
It'll Have you HARD in every way before day 3! ;D
Topical Formestane is the best otc anti-E out there. Works the same way as the above I would imagine.
Epistane/Havoc is a methylated version of Epistanol, there were some claimed anti-e properties as well as minimal side effects from this but I have seen some blood work from people taking this that showed it was a lot harsher than originally thought.
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Epistane/Havoc is a methylated version of Epistanol, there were some claimed anti-e properties as well as minimal side effects from this but I have seen some blood work from people taking this that showed it was a lot harsher than originally thought.
Agreed!!!
I tried HAVOK for 2 1/2 weeks and ended up with two of my liver reading being 10 times to high.
My wife actually forced me to go as she said I looked "off", the joke was I felt amazing with absolutely no sides at all.
The lab phoned my wife it was so high(My wife is in the endocrine industry)
I aborted the cycle immediately.
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Agreed!!!
I tried HAVOK for 2 1/2 weeks and ended up with two of my liver reading being 10 times to high.
My wife actually forced me to go as she said I looked "off", the joke was I felt amazing with absolutely no sides at all.
The lab phoned my wife it was so high(My wife is in the endocrine industry)
I aborted the cycle immediately.
Topical wont do crap, less it has a carrior w/ a molecular weight that willl allow to penetrate skin.
Liver values are transient, ignore them for 2 weeks if your healthy, and they return to normal, even on heavy anapolon/ Dbol cycles of 8 weeks. Liver dammage is way overstated.
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Any more opinions on Novedex XT?
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Any more opinions on Novedex XT?
Richs XT product does have action. I felt it was harder on my guts than 60mg of Human Grade Nolva.
Very spendy too. I wouldnt trust its use on over about 200mgs of TE run about 5-6 weeks.
Rich wont selll Junk IMO. I respect him. He brought Ripped to a new level . 1st to bring in ripped glutes as far as I know.
Just buy nolva or letro. Its safer on the body.
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Richs XT product does have action. I felt it was harder on my guts than 60mg of Human Grade Nolva.
Very spendy too. I wouldnt trust its use on over about 200mgs of TE run about 5-6 weeks.
Rich wont selll Junk IMO. I respect him. He brought Ripped to a new level . 1st to bring in ripped glutes as far as I know.
Just buy nolva or letro. Its safer on the body.
Thanks for the info.
I thought the two, Nolva and Novedex have different functioning mechanisms.
I think Novedex works through making the estrogen commit 'suicide' and nolvadex just binds to it or something like that. I'm sorry, i didn't read too deep into that and also read most of it in german, so i don't have the words.
On the other hand, most say Novedex is lighter than Nolva.
Any thoughts on this?
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Thanks for the info.
I thought the two, Nolva and Novedex have different functioning mechanisms.
I think Novedex works through making the estrogen commit 'suicide' and nolvadex just binds to it or something like that. I'm sorry, i didn't read too deep into that and also read most of it in german, so i don't have the words.
On the other hand, most say Novedex is lighter than Nolva.
Any thoughts on this?
Nolva and Nolvadex are the same, we BBers are very Lazy when not pumping iron or Asian Women.
Tamoxifen Citrate is the chemical name of Nolvadex. Its "Trade Name" can vary widly country to country.
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Thanks for the info.
I thought the two, Nolva and Novedex have different functioning mechanisms.
I think Novedex works through making the estrogen commit 'suicide' and nolvadex just binds to it or something like that. I'm sorry, i didn't read too deep into that and also read most of it in german, so i don't have the words.
On the other hand, most say Novedex is lighter than Nolva.
Any thoughts on this?
You are right.
People are getting confused by the similarity of the spellings.
NOLVA~NOLVADEX~TAMOXIFEN is a SERM
It binds to Estrogen receptors and blocks proper Estrogen from binding there and switching things on.
NOVEDEX XT By GASPARI is more an Aramotise inhibitor that binds to the ARAMOTASE enzyme and stops Testerone converting to Estrogen.
Rich just made his product sound like the scheduled drug but they do function in different ways and on different levels.
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Nolva and Nolvadex are the same, we BBers are very Lazy when not pumping iron or Asian Women.
Tamoxifen Citrate is the chemical name of Nolvadex. Its "Trade Name" can vary widly country to country.
hehe, read again please.
I was not referring to nolva and nolvadex, but to nolva and novedex, the gaspari stuff. (i also know tamoxifen's the same btw).
but thanks for the answer anyways.
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You are right.
People are getting confused by the similarity of the spellings.
NOLVA~NOLVADEX~TAMOXIFEN is a SERM
It binds to Estrogen receptors and blocks proper Estrogen from binding there and switching things on.
NOVEDEX XT By GASPARI is more an Aramotise inhibitor that binds to the ARAMOTASE enzyme and stops Testerone converting to Estrogen.
Rich just made his product sound like the scheduled drug but they do function in different ways and on different levels.
Okat, so i was right on this.
So basically, while nolva (or lets say tamox) just binds to your estrogen and does nothing else, NOVEDEX XT should be able to provide you with more testosterone.
Has it an effect on free test as well?
Is there any research on Novedex to read?
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Okat, so i was right on this.
So basically, while nolva (or lets say tamox) just binds to your estrogen and does nothing else, NOVEDEX XT should be able to provide you with more testosterone.
Has it an effect on free test as well?
Is there any research on Novedex to read?
Only on the GASPARI site itself, they quote a study on their own product.
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Okat, so i was right on this.
So basically, while nolva (or lets say tamox) just binds to your estrogen and does nothing else, NOVEDEX XT should be able to provide you with more testosterone.
Has it an effect on free test as well?
Is there any research on Novedex to read?
HERE'S The sad truth Donk, it takes a HELL OF A JOLT in Testo rise to do jack. Alll these sups just drain your wallet of money should have been spent on high quality food. THere is no edge to be had. Shit, even 200mg of TE/ Wk is
1 step forward, then 2 steps back in 8 weeks for many guys. It takes a BIG JOLT, for a sustained time to bennifit.
Eat good food and train Nat, you'll be better off.
Some of THese legal sups are real hard on the guts, worse than Drol or Dbol.
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HERE'S The sad truth Donk, it takes a HELL OF A JOLT in Testo rise to do jack. Alll these sups just drain your wallet of money should have been spent on high quality food. THere is no edge to be had. Shit, even 200mg of TE/ Wk is
1 step forward, then 2 steps back in 8 weeks for many guys. It takes a BIG JOLT, for a sustained time to bennifit.
Eat good food and train Nat, you'll be better off.
Some of THese legal sups are real hard on the guts, worse than Drol or Dbol.
Thanks, yes, i was already coming to the conclusion that it's not worth it.
I rather invest in some more Beta-Alanine, enjoy the tickling sensation and the pump and train on natural and buy a sushi plate from the money to share with my fiancee. ;D ;D ;D
But thanks very much, this is an interesting subject.
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Thanks, yes, i was already coming to the conclusion that it's not worth it.
I rather invest in some more Beta-Alanine, enjoy the tickling sensation and the pump and train on natural and buy a sushi plate from the money to share with my fiancee. ;D ;D ;D
But thanks very much, this is an interesting subject.
I recall a blood pannel test done by a guy that used Tribulus and some other "Natural" supplements.
They took a normal baseline Free and Total Test reading, then another blood work after weeks of the sups.
THe results? His Total Test level did rise measurably, (nothing mindblowing) BUT HIS FREE TEST WENT DOWN!!
This shows how smart our boddies are at staying the same. This is why 1st steroid cycles work so well if put together right.
Deca and Test are synergistic because Deca also make SHBG less able to bind. That = Higher circulating free testo.
Look at teen age boys w/ face full of zits. That's high free test level. But most look like skin and bones.
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I recall a blood pannel test done by a guy that used Tribulus and some other "Natural" supplements.
They took a normal baseline Free and Total Test reading, then another blood work after weeks of the sups.
THe results? His Total Test level did rise measurably, (nothing mindblowing) BUT HIS FREE TEST WENT DOWN!!
This shows how smart our boddies are at staying the same. This is why 1st steroid cycles work so well if put together right.
Deca and Test are synergistic because Deca also make SHBG less able to bind. That = Higher circulating free testo.
Look at teen age boys w/ face full of zits. That's high free test level. But most look like skin and bones.
Hehe, yeah, i had a lot of zits too, and there's no way i want them back. ;D ;D
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aNOTHER OPTION IS VERY MILD NONAROMATIZING STEROIDS, LIVE vAR, PRIMO, sTAN, tESTpROPRIONATE @ 100EOD
Testosterone propionate? Ha ha ha ha...it si highly aromatizing, like all testosterones. The "propionate" only means that it is a salt of testosterone. To make matters worse for you, propionate is the most highly aromatizing of all testosterones.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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Testosterone propionate? Ha ha ha ha...it si highly aromatizing, like all testosterones. The "propionate" only means that it is a salt of testosterone. To make matters worse for you, propionate is the most highly aromatizing of all testosterones.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
You dont even use steroids, correct? Test Prop was intended for womens breast cancer treatment way back.
TP is the testo w/ least need of Ai's. All users know this, you are way off here, and giving poor info.
Just because its fast acting dont mean it causes estrogen related sides, quite the contrary.
If this gets moved to the AAS board, and the Drs there read it, your going to be told your talkin out your ass.
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IMO - OTC gives OTC results... if that's what you want then i would take the nova
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Topical wont do crap, less it has a carrior w/ a molecular weight that willl allow to penetrate skin.
Liver values are transient, ignore them for 2 weeks if your healthy, and they return to normal, even on heavy anapolon/ Dbol cycles of 8 weeks. Liver dammage is way overstated.
For OTC supplements, that problem was solved several years ago by Ergopharm/Patrick Arnold. Most transdermals now are mixed with a base that does allow the ingredient to penetrate the skin as long as the solution in the correct concentration, etc.
Liver values can be transient, but compound the type of stress it experiences from BB "activities" for many many years and next thing you know you have a liver thats starting to fail.
I'd still go with the Gaspari novadex personally, number one because I wouldn't need anything stronger, but also besides being illegal, nolva has shown to cause additional stress on the liver, the last thing you want when trying to recover post-cycle.
Overall, use AI's to get yourself back to normal levels as quickly as possible, but don't stay on them forever, estrogen is actually good for cholesterol levels, joints, libido.
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is gasparis novedex harsh on the hairline?
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For OTC supplements, that problem was solved several years ago by Ergopharm/Patrick Arnold. Most transdermals now are mixed with a base that does allow the ingredient to penetrate the skin as long as the solution in the correct concentration, etc.
Liver values can be transient, but compound the type of stress it experiences from BB "activities" for many many years and next thing you know you have a liver thats starting to fail.
I'd still go with the Gaspari novadex personally, number one because I wouldn't need anything stronger, but also besides being illegal, nolva has shown to cause additional stress on the liver, the last thing you want when trying to recover post-cycle.
Overall, use AI's to get yourself back to normal levels as quickly as possible, but don't stay on them forever, estrogen is actually good for cholesterol levels, joints, libido.
Your right about consistant YEARS of orals being unhealthy. But occasional short courses are not the killer they are made out to be. Ive used Richs Product. I found it just felt harder on the guts than real Nolva, w/ seems to have
zero bad effects in males. I would NOT trust Richs product alone w/ much real Exogenous test.
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Your right about consistant YEARS of orals being unhealthy. But occasional short courses are not the killer they are made out to be. Ive used Richs Product. I found it just felt harder on the guts than real Nolva, w/ seems to have
zero bad effects in males. I would NOT trust Richs product alone w/ much real Exogenous test.
Gaspari markets Novedex as a stand alone.
What woud nolva do as a standalone? I guess nothing much.
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Gaspari markets Novedex as a stand alone.
What woud nolva do as a standalone? I guess nothing much.
Real Pharma Tamaxofen citrate?
Many women competitors used it back when it was the first and only estrogen blocker.
Takes off some water.
It does have a hardening effect at about 40-60mg ed for me. Its short lived effect,(2 weeks or so) the body allways fights back to any changes.
Watch more Porn Donk, That'll raise your Test levels more!
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Real Pharma Tamaxofen citrate?
Many women competitors used it back when it was the first and only estrogen blocker.
Takes off some water.
It does have a hardening effect at about 40-60mg ed for me. Its short lived effect,(2 weeks or so) the body allways fights back to any changes.
Watch more Porn Donk, That'll raise your Test levels more!
haha, thanks for the advice, but that's impossible! ;D ;D
Shit, Novedex XT just sounded too good to be true. Anti-E, more free test, more overall test, no sides, very mild. All in one supp.
Somehow i just don't want to do roids.
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haha, thanks for the advice, but that's impossible! ;D ;D
Shit, Novedex XT just sounded too good to be true. Anti-E, more free test, more overall test, no sides, very mild. All in one supp.
Somehow i just don't want to do roids.
Train Nat you'll likely be healthier for it. This coming form someone whos taken lots.
To get much gain it takes a jolt like I said. ANd then your Natural test is shut down, and then it takes awhile for it to return. And you feel "Off" for a time.
Here and there a guy can put on 5-8lbs of very nice lean mass, (1st cycle ONLY) on like nothing but 20mg of REAL var a day or a bit more primo tabs if he works hard at it.
Once when I returned to the States, I left my brother inlaw the leftovers of I believe it was a big brown 500 tab bottle of Schering Primo tabs. He and a friend took only them for several weeks, THey were both very impressed with the results. Lost fat, gained some hard muscle.
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thanks again.
I think most natties get this thought once a year or so.
I've been cutting through the summer, so now i feel a little exhausted.
I will be in Japan for the whole september, out of gym just doing some pushups, rack chins and crunches plus lots of walking and sight seeing.
I guess i will feel relaxed and good with new energy in october, then i will try to gain a bit more size without packing on fat.
i guess training naturally is hard on the mind and frustrating sometimes, but it's worth staying sober. ;D ;D
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thanks again.
I think most natties get this thought once a year or so.
I've been cutting through the summer, so now i feel a little exhausted.
I will be in Japan for the whole september, out of gym just doing some pushups, rack chins and crunches plus lots of walking and sight seeing.
I guess i will feel relaxed and good with new energy in october, then i will try to gain a bit more size without packing on fat.
i guess training naturally is hard on the mind and frustrating sometimes, but it's worth staying sober. ;D ;D
Enjoy the trip. Lucky you got Euros not US$'s. Bush Shock & Awed the US$ right down to nothing.
Travel with US$ right now SUCKS!!
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Enjoy the trip. Lucky you got Euros not US$'s. Bush Shock & Awed the US$ right down to nothing.
Travel with US$ right now SUCKS!!
The Euro is fucking strong, also regarding the weak Yen. I lOVE travelling in Japan at the moment. I'm gonna invest in a Nintendo WII this time, so i can skip cardio!
Woooohooooo! ;D ;D ;D
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The Euro is fucking strong, also regarding the weak Yen. I lOVE travelling in Japan at the moment. I'm gonna invest in a Nintendo WII this time, so i can skip cardio!
Woooohooooo! ;D ;D ;D
Your lucky right now currency wise Euro/ yen.
Americans, we be screwed!
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Your lucky right now currency wise Euro/ yen.
Americans, we be screwed!
Yes, your monetary and bank crisis shakes us with fear. european and japanese central banks have flooded billions of dollars into the market today to counteract what american real estates crisis triggered off. ;D ;D ;D
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Yes, your monetary and bank crisis shakes us with fear. european and japanese central banks have flooded billions of dollars into the market today to counteract what american real estates crisis triggered off. ;D ;D ;D
The stupid F---s Loaned money to ANYONE for way too much house.
ANd they still have not completely stoped. Its a fools game. Many are, and will lose homes that they cant afford.
I know a small store owner that just got into a 4000sq ft home (Aprox $400,000). No way he's going to keep it IMO.
Also, this war is not exactly cheap. They need to print a lot of money to fule it. Print more = less value.
You wouldnt believe how many For Sale Homes are just sitting here. No Buyers.
And thats destroyed the building and related Business.
Its actualy a good time to buy for ppl w/ money, just look for the desporate sellers. Plenty to chose from.
But most Americans are in debt up to their nose allready.
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I hope they are going to draw the money from the market again when the situation is better. They have done it before.
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You wouldnt believe how many For Sale Homes are just sitting here. No Buyers.
And thats destroyed the building and related Business.
Its actualy a good time to buy for ppl w/ money, just look for the desporate sellers. Plenty to chose from.
But most Americans are in debt up to their nose allready.
No kidding there will be a lot of money to be made in about five years if you had a couple million to purchase homes & just sit on them.
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No kidding there will be a lot of money to be made in about five years if you had a couple million to purchase homes & just sit on them.
Id never want to deal w/ the BS of owning Rental property, but I think plenty are going to be forced out of homes, into rental. I believe rental units for sale are also beat down in price.
Buying and restoring real beat down ones is what a couple guys I know do. They have lots of const skills.
Then, after the value is restored, refinance and roll into another property.
Tennants suck to deal with though.... The ruthless damage they do is sad.
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Id never want to deal w/ the BS of owning Rental property, but I think plenty are going to be forced out of homes, into rental. I believe rental units for sale are also beat down in price.
Buying and restoring real beat down ones is what a couple guys I know do. They have lots of const skills.
Then, after the value is restored, refinance and roll into another property.
Tennants suck to deal with though.... The ruthless damage they do is sad.
I rent out 3 houses and have for the most part been lucky with the tenants. I screen them really well before signing the lease. Even with good tenants it can really suck to get a call in the middle of the night that the water heater is leaking or the furnace is out. I didn't set out to be a landlord, all the houses are houses I have lived in and then moved up so to speak. At some point it should be good college money for the kids. The market is so bad right now where we live, we are seriously thinking about buying a few to just rent or sit on until the market comes back. It is always a gamble tho, as who knows when the prices will come back up.
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I rent out 3 houses and have for the most part been lucky with the tenants. I screen them really well before signing the lease. Even with good tenants it can really suck to get a call in the middle of the night that the water heater is leaking or the furnace is out. I didn't set out to be a landlord, all the houses are houses I have lived in and then moved up so to speak. At some point it should be good college money for the kids. The market is so bad right now where we live, we are seriously thinking about buying a few to just rent or sit on until the market comes back. It is always a gamble tho, as who knows when the prices will come back up.
I think a long time to come back. Now way FED can lower rates. Dollar is too bled out allready.
Man, some of the rental dammage Ive seen and repaired (Sheet Rock) ::). These 2 Guys got Fellony property dammage charges...
They busted holes right thru from room to room, sprayed ketchup everywhere, total destruction.
They split... Ha Ha Cops found them.
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I think a long time to come back. Now way FED can lower rates. Dollar is too bled out allready.
Man, some of the rental dammage Ive seen and repaired (Sheet Rock) ::). These 2 Guys got Fellony property dammage charges...
They busted holes right thru from room to room, sprayed ketchup everywhere, total destruction.
They split... Ha Ha Cops found them.
I have a buddy who also rents out some properties with his family, and they have had those kind of horror stories, one tenant was breeding dogs in the basement and they almost ruined the property, trying to get it cleaned up and the smell out was a nightmare, they have also had to physically evict people, which is no fun. It has its ups and downs for sure, but when it is rolling well, it is nice to get those checks in the mail each month.
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I have a buddy who also rents out some properties with his family, and they have had those kind of horror stories, one tenant was breeding dogs in the basement and they almost ruined the property, trying to get it cleaned up and the smell out was a nightmare, they have also had to physically evict people, which is no fun. It has its ups and downs for sure, but when it is rolling well, it is nice to get those checks in the mail each month.
Good luck with yours. Yeah, Ive seen all the flooring have to be remved right to the joices from animal urine :( :-X.
One of the worst was a Brand New Luxury Town house just trashed.
Up here in Liberal Wis, Land Lords dont have much rights. Very hard to evict quickly. Takes months.