Author Topic: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8  (Read 871 times)

Benny B

  • Time Out
  • Getbig V
  • *
  • Posts: 12407
  • Ron = 'Princess L' & many other gimmicks - FACT!
The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« on: January 15, 2009, 07:28:27 AM »
Of Judges, By Judges, For Judges

By George F. Will
Thursday, January 15, 2009

In November, 13,402,566 California voters expressed themselves for or against Proposition 8, which said that their state's Constitution should be amended to define marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman. The voters, confident that they had a right to decide this question by referendum, endorsed Proposition 8 by a margin of 52.3 to 47.7 percent.

Now comes California's attorney general, Jerry Brown -- always a fountain of novel arguments -- with a 111-page brief asking the state Supreme Court to declare the constitutional amendment unconstitutional. He favors same-sex marriages and says the amendment violates Article 1, Section 1, of California's Constitution, which enumerates "inalienable rights" to, among other things, liberty, happiness and privacy.

Brown's audacious argument is a viscous soup of natural-law and natural-rights philosophizing, utterly untethered from case law. It is designed to effect a constitutional revolution by establishing an unchallengeable judicial hegemony. He argues that:

The not-really-sovereign people cannot use the constitutionally provided amendment process to define the scope of rights enumerated in the Constitution; California's judiciary, although established by the state's Constitution, has the extra-constitutional right to supplement that enumeration by brooding about natural law, natural justice and natural rights, all arising from some authority somewhere outside the Constitution; the judiciary has the unchallengeable right to say what social policies are entailed by or proscribed by the state Constitution's declaration of rights and other rights discovered by judges.

What is natural justice? Learned and honorable people disagree. Which is why such consensus as can be reached is codified in a constitution. But Brown's reasoning would make California's Constitution subordinate to judges' flights of fancy regarding natural justice. Judges could declare unconstitutional any act of Constitution-revising by the people.

In a brief responding to Brown's, Kenneth Starr -- former federal judge, former U.S. solicitor general, current dean of Pepperdine University Law School -- notes the absurd consequences of the proposition that "the people can never amend the Constitution to overrule judicial interpretations of inalienable rights." Long ago, a California court struck down a Sunday closing law because "it infringes upon the liberty of the citizen, by restraining his right to acquire property." And a court struck down a law against scalping theater tickets because it violated rights "inherent in every natural person." By Brown's reasoning, judges could declare unconstitutional any constitutional amendment revising these judicial judgments.

Passing laws by referenda is an imprudent departure from the core principle of republican government -- representation: The people do not decide issues, they decide who shall decide. But the right of Californians to make laws through the direct democracy of referenda is as firmly established as it is promiscuously exercised.

In 2000, voters passed Proposition 22, enacting a law stipulating that marriage is a heterosexual relationship. Last May, California's Supreme Court struck down the law on the ground that there is no "compelling state interest" in not recognizing same-sex marriages under the constitutional clause guaranteeing "equal protection" of the laws. Opponents of same-sex marriage quickly gathered sufficient signatures to place on the November ballot the amendment to the constitution.

The breadth and depth of California's toleration regarding sexual lifestyles refute the worry that gays are a vulnerable minority menaced by majoritarian tyranny. Proposition 8 merely restored to California law the ancient and nearly universal definition of marriage, a definition resoundingly endorsed by the U.S. Congress (85 to 14 in the Senate, 342 to 67 in the House) and written into the laws of 47 other states. California advocates of erasing the right to same-sex domestic partnerships could not even get sufficient signatures to put their measure on the November ballot.

Just eight years ago, Proposition 22 was passed, 61.4 to 38.6 percent. The much narrower victory of Proposition 8 suggests that minds are moving toward toleration of same-sex marriage. If advocates of that have the patience required by democratic persuasion, California's ongoing conversation may end as they hope. If, however, the conversation is truncated, as Brown urges, by judicial fiat, the argument will become as embittered as the argument about abortion has been by judicial highhandedness.

Brown's reasoning would establish an unassailable tyranny of a minority -- judges -- over any California majority. Brown, 70, California's former and perhaps future governor, once was a Jesuit seminarian. One American Heritage dictionary definition of "jesuitical" is "given to subtle casuistry"; one of that dictionary's definitions of "casuistry" is "specious or excessively subtle reasoning to rationalize or mislead." These definitions, although unfair to Jesuits, are descriptive of Brown's argument.
!

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2009, 07:31:54 AM »
Great!!!! Why bother voting when the Courts can just decide for u......At this point it does not matter what side of the line ur on. Eventually some law or vote u liked will or could get overturned by the Courts.
L

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2009, 07:40:57 AM »
The California marriage decision and basic civics


The attack on the California court decision by a Brookings "scholar" in the New Republic reveals a profound ignorance of how our system of government is designed to function.
Glenn Greenwald


May. 22, 2008 | The Brookings Institutions' Ben Wittes has an article in The New Republic decrying the decision of the California Supreme Court striking down that state's discriminatory marriage law. Wittes' criticism of the decision reflects the standard attack on the California Supreme Court, an attack that relies upon what can only be described as profound ignorance about how our system of government works.

Wittes' principal objection is that the California court's ruling was wrong because it is contrary to evolving democratic efforts to forge a "compromise" on the issue of gay marriage and because a large majority supports the law (h/t Andrew Sullivan):

Another cost is that slow drip-by-drip accretion of power to courts, that steady undermining of the right of people to govern themselves. In California, the deprivation of that right is exquisitely on display, for the compromise the court upset involved decades of negotiation and movement. The nucleus of California's domestic partnership law dates from the late 1970s. Over time, it has grown more generous, by 2006 including all of the rights and obligations of marriage. In 2000, however, the people of California voted overwhelmingly to limit marriage itself to opposite-sex unions. The legislature has twice voted to extend marriage to gay couples -- and Governor Schwarzenegger has twice vetoed the bill. The current arrangement, in short, reflects a series of evolving compromises set against the backdrop of a quickly developing social consensus concerning the value and honor of same-sex relationships -- a process that the court treated as just so much bother on the way to a self-evident truth. Once upon a time, this bother had a name. We called it democracy.

This reasoning -- that it undermines "democracy" and constitutes judicial tyranny when a court strikes down a popular law -- is so pervasive every time there is a controversial court decision. But it is as woefully misinformed as it is common.

That a law invalidated by a court is supported by a large majority is not an argument supporting the conclusion that the court's decision was wrong. Central to our system of government is the premise that there are laws which even the largest majorities are prohibited from enacting because such laws violate the constitutional rights of minorities. Thus, the percentage of people who support the law in question, and how lengthy and painstaking the process was that led to the law's enactment, is totally irrelevant in assessing the propriety of a court decision striking down that law on constitutional grounds.

Contrary to Wittes' extremely confused argument, a court striking down a law supported by large majorities is not antithetical to our system of government. Such a judicial act is central to our system of government. That's because, strictly speaking, the U.S. is not a "democracy" as much as it a "constitutional republic," precisely because constitutional guarantees trump democratic majorities. This is all just seventh-grade civics, something that the Brookings scholar and those condemning the California court's decision on similar grounds seem to have forgotten.

The duty -- the central obligation -- of judges faithfully applying the law and fulfilling their core duties is to strike down laws that violate the Constitution, without regard to what percentage of the population supports that law, and without regard to whether it would be "better" in some political sense if democratic majorities some day got around to changing their minds about it. It's perfectly appropriate for, say, marriage equality advocates or political candidates to take into account whether it would be preferable, in some political or strategic sense, to achieve gay marriage incrementally or legislatively, only once there is majority support for it. But that is a completely inappropriate factor for a judge to consider, because the judge's sole consideration is whether the law is consistent with Constitutional protections.

Alexander Hamilton, in defining the core function of federal judges in Federalist 78, explained this as clearly as it could be explained (though apparently not clearly enough for Wittes):

wherever a particular statute contravenes the Constitution, it will be the duty of the judicial tribunals to adhere to the latter and disregard the former.
When -- to use Hamilton's formulation -- judges "disregard" a "particular statute" in favor of constitutional guarantees, they aren't undermining our system of government. They're upholding it. The principal purpose of the Constitution is to prohibit the enactment of rights-abridging laws which, by definition (given that they are being democratically enacted), are supported by majorities. Anyone who argues that a court is acting improperly solely by virtue of the fact that it is striking down a popular law is someone who doesn't believe in the American system of government created by the Founders.

None of this is to deny that there are reasonable grounds for objecting to the California court's decision. A court acts improperly when it strikes down a law which no constitutional provision prohibits -- in exactly the same way, and to exactly the same extent, as it acts improperly when it upholds a law that does abridge a guaranteed constitutional protection. The only relevant question is whether the law abridges rights secured by the Constitution. Thus, one can coherently criticize the California court's decision by arguing that it misapprehended and misapplied the rights guaranteed by that state's Constitution as defined by binding California precedents interpreting those provisions.

But Wittes -- along with most of those objecting to this decision -- doesn't bother with any of that. The Brookings scholar never analyzes any provision of the California State Constitution, nor does he reference a single prior ruling from the California Supreme Court which defines the scope and meaning of those provisions. Instead, his attack on the court's decision rests on the fact that a majority in California liked this law; that California's marriage law is more "progressive" than those in most other states; and that the statute was the by-product of a long, evolving democratic negotiation. That isn't a constitutional or legal analysis. It's just ignorant demagoguery.


Hereford

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2009, 09:30:06 AM »
Look at Prop 287 in California. A HISPANIC judge ruled that the will of the people was less important than the desires of the states illegals. The Constitution is to protect the rights of AMERICANS, not invaders.

Gonna be a good time when someone militarily invades the US, and some lib judge declares that it violates their constitutional rights to defend ourselves!

tu_holmes

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15922
  • Robot
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2009, 09:34:24 AM »
Look at Prop 287 in California. A HISPANIC judge ruled that the will of the people was less important than the desires of the states illegals. The Constitution is to protect the rights of AMERICANS, not invaders.

Gonna be a good time when someone militarily invades the US, and some lib judge declares that it violates their constitutional rights to defend ourselves!

I agree... this is ridiculous.

I can understand overturning things relating to potential civil rights... Hell, that's what was done in the 60s and I get it... but if you're not at least a citizen... Although, I guess you could make a case that man African Americans weren't considered citizens in the 1800s yet you had certain people fighting for their freedom non the less... A lot of it done in the court rooms.

Perhaps the difference should not be about citizenship, but legal vs. illegal.

An illegal shouldn't get any rights, yet a legal should?

It's quite a difficult issue if you look at it from all sides.

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19256
  • Getbig!
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2009, 10:38:34 AM »
Great!!!! Why bother voting when the Courts can just decide for u......At this point it does not matter what side of the line ur on. Eventually some law or vote u liked will or could get overturned by the Courts.

I think one factor in the narrower margin of victory for Prop. 8, compared to that of Prop. 22, was the fact that gay couples had licenses in hand. There may be people who don’t agree with the whole gay “marriage” deal; yet, they didn’t feel it was right to potentially revoke those licenses, once obtained.

If Prop. 8 had any constitutional breaches, Brown (and/or the CA Court) should have addressed them MONTHS AGO. Instead, Brown approved Prop. 8 for the ballot and the court mentioned no problems with it. In addition, the court should have stayed its May ruling, until the results of the vote in November. Giving gay couples marriage licenses that could be potentially worthless mere months later makes absolutely no sense, UNLESS........

(In my view) the CA court and AG Brown were banking on the voters to have the electorate vote Prop. 8 down, so they wouldn’t have to deal with it. To that end, I feel they stacked the deck against Prop. 8 passage by questionable wording, regarding the title of the amendment itself and issuing gay couples licenses before the vote took place.


If certain gays didn’t already have marriage licenses in hand, my guess is that the margin of victory would have been greater, probably 58-61% in favor of the amendment.

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39483
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2009, 11:20:00 AM »
The voters expressed their voices. 

If the gays dont like it, they should move.

Hereford

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2009, 11:23:13 AM »
Can we send the mouthy ones to NY?

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39483
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2009, 11:26:43 AM »
Can we send the mouthy ones to NY?

No, we have enough gays here as it is.  I dont care what they do, but some are way overboard on the flamboyance down in Greenwich Village. 

Hereford

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2009, 11:36:54 AM »
The gays whole issue is to make themselves so obnoxious here, that either the voters or courts give them what they want to avoid the hassel.

This will be like the sales tax up in Oregon.... It will be on the ballots every time until people get tired of seeing it and pass it out of apathy.

Eyeball Chambers

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14344
  • Would you hold still? You're making me fuck up...
Re: The California AG's Push To Undo Prop 8
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2009, 02:21:46 PM »
Absolutely unbelievable
S