Author Topic: Is God Cruel?  (Read 35468 times)

Butterbean

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Is God Cruel?
« on: April 10, 2008, 06:42:27 AM »
Comments from gotquestions.org




Question: "Is God cruel?"

Answer: There are atheists and agnostics who argue that the God who is presented in the Bible is cruel. By labeling God as cruel, they are appealing to our human, moral sensibilities. The word “cruelty” is defined as "callous indifference to, or pleasure in, causing pain and suffering.” The question before us now is: Is God cruel? To answer in the affirmative, we would have to allow that God either doesn’t care about pain and suffering, or He actually enjoys watching His creatures suffer.

The atheists / agnostics who claim that God is cruel have a large burden of proof. They are not merely claiming to know about the actions of God; they are also claiming to sufficiently know the circumstances in which He performed those actions, as well as His motivations. Additionally, they are claiming to know the very mind of God, ascribing to Him the attitudes of indifference and/or sadistic pleasure necessary to define Him as cruel. Quite frankly, this is beyond the skeptic’s ability to demonstrate—they can’t possibly know the mind of God. “’For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts’” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

There is no doubt that God both allows and, at times, causes pain and suffering, but God’s goodness cannot be impugned because He commits an act that appears cruel to us. While we can’t claim to know His reasoning in every circumstance, we do know several reasons for actions that can appear to us to be cruel, especially if we don’t know—or don’t bother to find out—the circumstances:

1. Just punishment - If a punishment is just, can it be said to be cruel? What critics usually do not understand is that God’s love is not diminished when He brings punishment on people. God is able to bring judgment on an evil group of people in order to spare those who are devoted to Him. To allow evil and wrongdoing to go unpunished would indeed be cruel and would indicate a callousness toward the innocent. When God caused the Red Sea to close, drowning Pharaoh’s entire army, He was punishing Pharaoh’s rebellion against Him and preserving His chosen people from certain slaughter and annihilation (Exodus 14). Wrongdoing that does not result in punishment inevitably results in greater and greater wrongdoing, which benefits no one and is detrimental to the common good. Even when God told the Israelites to completely destroy the enemies of God, including women and children, He knew that to let them live would ensure the existence of future generations devoted to evil idolatrous practices—including in some cases child sacrifices on the altars of false gods.

2. To bring about a greater good - Pain and suffering that produce a greater good sometimes can be brought about by no other means. The Bible tells us that trials and difficulties produce stronger, better Christians, and we should “count it all joy” (James 1:2) when we encounter them. God brings these about for our benefit, in order to refine us like gold in the fire of affliction. The Apostle Paul saw his own suffering—beatings, stonings, shipwrecks, hunger, thirst, cold, imprisonments—as a means of ensuring that he would be ever conscious of his own weakness, would remember always that the power at work in him was from God, not himself, and would never be deluded into relying on his own power (2 Corinthians 1:8-10; 4:7-12). Against nonbelievers, God's justice is vindicated when he causes pain and suffering to them because they deserve it. He demonstrates His mercy to them by warning them repeatedly of the consequences of sin. When through their own rebellion, they bring upon themselves calamity, this is just punishment, not cruelty. The fact that He lets rebels go on shaking their fists at Him as long as He does indicates His mercy and patience, not cruelty.

3. To glorify Himself - God is glorified by the exhibition of His attributes. We all agree that He looks pretty good to us when His love and mercy are on display, but since each and every attribute is holy and perfect, even the exhibition of His wrath and anger bring Him glory. And that is the ultimate goal—His glory, not ours. Our tiny finite brains can't even adequately imagine Him, much less call Him into question.

All these are worthy, valid, noble causes for pain and suffering. Contrary to the claims of skeptics, there are good reasons for God’s allowing evil and suffering in this world. We are privileged to know some of those reasons, but we do not always know why God allows evil and suffering. To trust God in spite of not knowing the reasons is not a blind leap of faith. Rather, we trust Him with the things we don’t understand because we see His faithfulness in those actions which we do understand.

If we read the Bible carefully, rather than seeing God act out of cruelty, we see Him acting out of His love for us. For example, the book of Job is often pointed to as an example of God’s sadistic actions against an innocent man. The book declares that Job was innocent of the suffering that came upon him, which appears to favor the claim of the atheist. But to claim that it proves God is sadistic betrays a very superficial understanding of the book of Job.

In the Near East during the time of the patriarchs, a common belief was that God always blessed the righteous and brought suffering on the unrighteous. The book of Job is a polemic against that theology. The story shows that man’s view of God’s justice needed to be modified. We need to understand that God is not limited to using suffering as a means of retribution. He also uses it to tear people away from the earthly things that so easily entice them. Additionally, Job brings people closer to understanding God’s work of atonement on the cross. If mankind continued to think that God couldn’t allow an innocent man to suffer, then we would have missed God’s plan for redeeming the world. For God allowed the suffering of a perfectly innocent Man (Jesus Christ) in order to bring His own to salvation. So this book ends up being an invaluable contribution to the history of redemption.

So in summary, the skeptic must bear a very large burden of proof in claiming that God’s actions are characterized by cruelty. In context, the biblical passages which appear to paint God as cruel actually do no such thing. In fact, with a proper understanding of the Scriptures, we see that God’s actions are always motivated by, and consistent with, His holy and perfect character.
 
R

columbusdude82

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2008, 06:49:11 AM »
FALSE

Colossus_500

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2008, 06:58:48 AM »
The mere definition of the word cruelty negates anything synonymous with God.  Good stuff, Ro. 

columbusdude82

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2008, 07:25:50 AM »
Point 3: God inflicts pain and suffering on us to glorify himself... What an insecure megalomaniac!

Decker

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2008, 09:40:57 AM »
God's killed more people than Cecil B. DeMille.

He's devastated entire towns--men, women and children.

There is no way to answer this question.  Even the author of the article is wrong.

Even if there is a God, there is no way of knowing divine purpose.  I love it how people can blithely state the qualification's of divine love, mercy and retribution.

The God of the Old Testament, as a literary figure, is not only cruel but sadistic.

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2008, 09:53:55 AM »
God's killed more people than Cecil B. DeMille.

He's devastated entire towns--men, women and children.

There is no way to answer this question.  Even the author of the article is wrong.

Even if there is a God, there is no way of knowing divine purpose.  I love it how people can blithely state the qualification's of divine love, mercy and retribution.

The God of the Old Testament, as a literary figure, is not only cruel but sadistic.
If you think that was bad, wait until He returns!   :o  Don't know about you, but...I don't plan on being here to see the devastation. 

OzmO

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2008, 10:00:45 AM »
The God identified in the Bible is cruel and more like a man complete with emotional traits.


gcb

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2008, 06:27:18 PM »
Hang on a sec here - there is no god.

Hope this helps.

Hedgehog

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2008, 03:58:55 PM »
Comments from gotquestions.org




Question: "Is God cruel?"

Answer: There are atheists and agnostics who argue that the God who is presented in the Bible is cruel. By labeling God as cruel, they are appealing to our human, moral sensibilities. The word “cruelty” is defined as "callous indifference to, or pleasure in, causing pain and suffering.” The question before us now is: Is God cruel? To answer in the affirmative, we would have to allow that God either doesn’t care about pain and suffering, or He actually enjoys watching His creatures suffer.

The atheists / agnostics who claim that God is cruel have a large burden of proof. They are not merely claiming to know about the actions of God; they are also claiming to sufficiently know the circumstances in which He performed those actions, as well as His motivations. Additionally, they are claiming to know the very mind of God, ascribing to Him the attitudes of indifference and/or sadistic pleasure necessary to define Him as cruel. Quite frankly, this is beyond the skeptic’s ability to demonstrate—they can’t possibly know the mind of God. “’For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts’” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

There is no doubt that God both allows and, at times, causes pain and suffering, but God’s goodness cannot be impugned because He commits an act that appears cruel to us. While we can’t claim to know His reasoning in every circumstance, we do know several reasons for actions that can appear to us to be cruel, especially if we don’t know—or don’t bother to find out—the circumstances:

1. Just punishment - If a punishment is just, can it be said to be cruel? What critics usually do not understand is that God’s love is not diminished when He brings punishment on people. God is able to bring judgment on an evil group of people in order to spare those who are devoted to Him. To allow evil and wrongdoing to go unpunished would indeed be cruel and would indicate a callousness toward the innocent. When God caused the Red Sea to close, drowning Pharaoh’s entire army, He was punishing Pharaoh’s rebellion against Him and preserving His chosen people from certain slaughter and annihilation (Exodus 14). Wrongdoing that does not result in punishment inevitably results in greater and greater wrongdoing, which benefits no one and is detrimental to the common good. Even when God told the Israelites to completely destroy the enemies of God, including women and children, He knew that to let them live would ensure the existence of future generations devoted to evil idolatrous practices—including in some cases child sacrifices on the altars of false gods.

2. To bring about a greater good - Pain and suffering that produce a greater good sometimes can be brought about by no other means. The Bible tells us that trials and difficulties produce stronger, better Christians, and we should “count it all joy” (James 1:2) when we encounter them. God brings these about for our benefit, in order to refine us like gold in the fire of affliction. The Apostle Paul saw his own suffering—beatings, stonings, shipwrecks, hunger, thirst, cold, imprisonments—as a means of ensuring that he would be ever conscious of his own weakness, would remember always that the power at work in him was from God, not himself, and would never be deluded into relying on his own power (2 Corinthians 1:8-10; 4:7-12). Against nonbelievers, God's justice is vindicated when he causes pain and suffering to them because they deserve it. He demonstrates His mercy to them by warning them repeatedly of the consequences of sin. When through their own rebellion, they bring upon themselves calamity, this is just punishment, not cruelty. The fact that He lets rebels go on shaking their fists at Him as long as He does indicates His mercy and patience, not cruelty.

3. To glorify Himself - God is glorified by the exhibition of His attributes. We all agree that He looks pretty good to us when His love and mercy are on display, but since each and every attribute is holy and perfect, even the exhibition of His wrath and anger bring Him glory. And that is the ultimate goal—His glory, not ours. Our tiny finite brains can't even adequately imagine Him, much less call Him into question.

All these are worthy, valid, noble causes for pain and suffering. Contrary to the claims of skeptics, there are good reasons for God’s allowing evil and suffering in this world. We are privileged to know some of those reasons, but we do not always know why God allows evil and suffering. To trust God in spite of not knowing the reasons is not a blind leap of faith. Rather, we trust Him with the things we don’t understand because we see His faithfulness in those actions which we do understand.

If we read the Bible carefully, rather than seeing God act out of cruelty, we see Him acting out of His love for us. For example, the book of Job is often pointed to as an example of God’s sadistic actions against an innocent man. The book declares that Job was innocent of the suffering that came upon him, which appears to favor the claim of the atheist. But to claim that it proves God is sadistic betrays a very superficial understanding of the book of Job.

In the Near East during the time of the patriarchs, a common belief was that God always blessed the righteous and brought suffering on the unrighteous. The book of Job is a polemic against that theology. The story shows that man’s view of God’s justice needed to be modified. We need to understand that God is not limited to using suffering as a means of retribution. He also uses it to tear people away from the earthly things that so easily entice them. Additionally, Job brings people closer to understanding God’s work of atonement on the cross. If mankind continued to think that God couldn’t allow an innocent man to suffer, then we would have missed God’s plan for redeeming the world. For God allowed the suffering of a perfectly innocent Man (Jesus Christ) in order to bring His own to salvation. So this book ends up being an invaluable contribution to the history of redemption.

So in summary, the skeptic must bear a very large burden of proof in claiming that God’s actions are characterized by cruelty. In context, the biblical passages which appear to paint God as cruel actually do no such thing. In fact, with a proper understanding of the Scriptures, we see that God’s actions are always motivated by, and consistent with, His holy and perfect character.
 


You post a quote from a site.

I have to assume you believe in it, since you leave the quote without comments.

When God caused the Red Sea to close, drowning Pharaoh’s entire army, He was punishing Pharaoh’s rebellion against Him and preserving His chosen people from certain slaughter and annihilation (Exodus 14).


God is almighty, and could easily have chosen to find a way to stop the rebellion without the slaughtering of thousands of Egyptians.


Wrongdoing that does not result in punishment inevitably results in greater and greater wrongdoing, which benefits no one and is detrimental to the common good.


Jesus seems to disagree. He says to turn the other cheek and to give the cloak. Is this website you believe in more right than Jesus?


Even when God told the Israelites to completely destroy the enemies of God, including women and children, He knew that to let them live would ensure the existence of future generations devoted to evil idolatrous practices—including in some cases child sacrifices on the altars of false gods.


STella, how can you even begin to defend the murdering of children?

I gotta say that I'm quite surprised.
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figgs

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2008, 04:37:27 PM »
God's probably playful. The world wouldn't be any fun if there was good vs. bad and no way of knowing how the good will get the best of the bad in the end. If God is all that is, and there is suffering in the world, he is doing it to himself, after all.
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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 06:06:28 AM »
Hedge points out something that is important to this debate, namely, the fact that god could easily have found alternatives if he is all wise and powerfull rather then slaughter. Combined with the fact he knows the future, then he already knew he would be killing those people before he made them.


how ridiculous is it that grown people beleive in magic, seriously. Why has there been no more magic?

OzmO

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 07:16:17 AM »


how can you even begin to defend the murdering of children?


Here's how some of how the defense goes:

-  They would have grown up to be evil like their parents
-  They would have starved to death
-  A parents sin will affect those whose are innocent


It's still unbelievable that anyone could even attempt to justify the killing of children, but for all the good Christians do, the ones who believe the bible is the  word of God believe this is something God would do and therefore is justified.

Decker

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 07:57:42 AM »
Here's how some of the defense goes:

-  They would have grown up to be evil like their parents
-  They would have starved to death
-  A parents sin will affect those whose are innocent


It's still unbelievable that anyone could even attempt to justify the killing of children, but for all the good Christians do, the ones who believe the bible is the  word of God believe this something God would do and therefore is justified.
Great point.  Brainwashing is brainwashing in my book.  Anything can be reasoned out.

Deicide

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2008, 08:12:46 AM »
Hedge points out something that is important to this debate, namely, the fact that god could easily have found alternatives if he is all wise and powerfull rather then slaughter. Combined with the fact he knows the future, then he already knew he would be killing those people before he made them.


how ridiculous is it that grown people beleive in magic, seriously. Why has there been no more magic?

There has been. I play Dungeons & Dragons, how about you?  ;D
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Butterbean

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2008, 09:23:02 AM »
You post a quote from a site.

I have to assume you believe in it, since you leave the quote without comments.





Jesus seems to disagree. He says to turn the other cheek and to give the cloak. Is this website you believe in more right than Jesus?


We've been over the turning the other cheek thing a few times and you don't seem to comprehend my side. 

I do pretty much agree w/the above quote from that site but no, I don't believe everything that site always states so I will try to remember to add some comments in the future so as not to confuse you.




Even when God told the Israelites to completely destroy the enemies of God, including women and children, He knew that to let them live would ensure the existence of future generations devoted to evil idolatrous practices—including in some cases child sacrifices on the altars of false gods.


STella, how can you even begin to defend the murdering of children?



The killing of children is a very hard thing to try to get your mind around.  The only thing I can really say about it is that I guess you've got to have faith that God - who is all knowing - knew what He was doing.





I gotta say that I'm quite surprised.
Aren't you pro-abortion?


R

loco

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2008, 10:46:06 AM »
God is not cruel.

No Christian will tell you that he/she supports the murder of children, or the murder of anybody for that matter.

God passing judgement on entire nations, including children, in the Old Testament is not considered murder by Orthodox Jews or by Christians.  To us it is considered capital punishment.  It is just as a judge and the state are not considered murderers for executing a criminal sentenced to death. 

So the debate is not whether Christians and Jews support the murder of children.  Again, we do not support the murder of children, or the murder of anybody for that matter.  The debate is whether or not God's capital punishment in the Old Testament on entire nations, including children is murder.  And this debate has gone on for years and will continue for years to come.

As for turning the other cheek in the New Testament, this is necessary in order to peacefully win your enemies over to Jesus Christ.  This is part of the new covenant.

Decker

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2008, 10:58:28 AM »
God is not cruel.

No Christian will tell you that he/she supports the murder of children, or the murder of anybody for that matter.

God passing judgement on entire nations, including children, in the Old Testament is not considered murder by Orthodox Jews or by Christians.  To us it is considered capital punishment.  It is just as a judge and the state are not considered murderers for executing a criminal sentenced to death. 

So the debate is not whether Christians and Jews support the murder of children.  Again, we do not support the murder of children, or the murder of anybody for that matter.  The debate is whether or not God's capital punishment in the Old Testament on entire nations, including children is murder.  And this debate has gone on for years and will continue for years to come.

As for turning the other cheek in the New Testament, this is necessary in order to peacefully win your enemies over to Jesus Christ.  This is part of the new covenant.
So again you fall back on the mystery of Divine Will as final arbiter in the matter.  God had a good reason for killing the children therefore that killing is not murder.  Judge, jury and executioner this God is.

What crime did those children commit warranting their death penalties at the hands of God the Father?

loco

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2008, 11:06:34 AM »
So again you fall back on the mystery of Divine Will as final arbiter in the matter.  God had a good reason for killing the children therefore that killing is not murder.  Judge, jury and executioner this God is.

Yes

What crime did those children commit warranting their death penalties at the hands of God the Father?

None.  Their parents committed the crime.  The children were punished by God for the sins of their parents.  But only God can do this.  We are not God and we can't punish children for the sins of their parents, though punishment aside, children do suffer for the bad choices of their parents or even for bad choices of generations before them.  We all suffer now for the sin of Adam and Eve.

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2008, 11:44:36 AM »
Yes

None.  Their parents committed the crime.  The children were punished by God for the sins of their parents.  But only God can do this.  We are not God and we can't punish children for the sins of their parents, though punishment aside, children do suffer for the bad choices of their parents or even for bad choices of generations before them.  We all suffer now for the sin of Adam and Eve.
I cannot accept that.  I think God made a mistake.

loco

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 11:57:51 AM »
I cannot accept that.  I think God made a mistake.

You believe there is a God?

Butterbean

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2008, 12:48:05 PM »
God is not cruel.

No Christian will tell you that he/she supports the murder of children, or the murder of anybody for that matter.

God passing judgement on entire nations, including children, in the Old Testament is not considered murder by Orthodox Jews or by Christians.  To us it is considered capital punishment.  It is just as a judge and the state are not considered murderers for executing a criminal sentenced to death. 

So the debate is not whether Christians and Jews support the murder of children.  Again, we do not support the murder of children, or the murder of anybody for that matter.  The debate is whether or not God's capital punishment in the Old Testament on entire nations, including children is murder.  And this debate has gone on for years and will continue for years to come.

As for turning the other cheek in the New Testament, this is necessary in order to peacefully win your enemies over to Jesus Christ.  This is part of the new covenant.

Good post thank you loco.
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loco

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 12:50:58 PM »
Good post thank you loco.

Thanks STella!   ;D

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 12:53:14 PM »
You believe there is a God?
Yes.  But certainly not a personal god like in the bible.

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2008, 12:54:07 PM »
Yeah, i was walking down the street the other day and saw a child sitting there on a bench with his parents.  I approached the child and firmly backhanded him across the face.  the child was is pain and the parents demanded an explanation.

I told them i was on a mission from god who told me to punish people for the sins of Adam and Eve and any sins they the parents committed.

The parents didn't buy it
The police didn't buy it
The anger management counselors didn't buy it
My Mom didn't buy it
The judge didn't buy it
The community service people didn't buy it
The Child protective services people didn't buy it
The people on the city didn't buy it.

i was punished for my crime but was counseled by a conservative Christian who told me:

Quote
Their parents committed the crime.  The children were punished by God for the sins of their parents.  But only God can do this.  We are not God and we can't punish children for the sins of their parents, though punishment aside, children do suffer for the bad choices of their parents or even for bad choices of generations before them.  We all suffer now for the sin of Adam and Eve.


So as long i was acting on God's orders it was ok. 

loco

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Re: Is God Cruel?
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2008, 01:07:42 PM »
Yeah, i was walking down the street the other day and saw a child sitting there on a bench with his parents.  I approached the child and firmly backhanded him across the face.  the child was is pain and the parents demanded an explanation.

I told them i was on a mission from god who told me to punish people for the sins of Adam and Eve and any sins they the parents committed.

The parents didn't buy it
The police didn't buy it
The anger management counselors didn't buy it
My Mom didn't buy it
The judge didn't buy it
The community service people didn't buy it
The Child protective services people didn't buy it
The people on the city didn't buy it.

i was punished for my crime but was counseled by a conservative Christian who told me:


So as long i was acting on God's orders it was ok. 

Why did you do this OzmO?  Did God really tell you to do it or did you make that up?